Combating Destructive Leadership Behaviors with Kristen Shields

Portia, Tashana, and Ingrid spoke with Kristen Shields, Associate Registrar at Governors State University about her research on how destructive leadership behaviors show up in the workplace, and coping strategies to deal with them. Kristen generously shares her own experiences and how it led her to study this important topic. The group discussed the challenges of alerting an institution to an individual's behavior, how to regain control and reclaim power, and how a sense of belonging is both an individual and collective experience. This is a sensitive topic so please approach with care for yourself, as always. 

Transcript

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You know what Patty would have came in. I would have went right to her office and got to swishing up-- things like that makes no sense to-- me that you would have paper ma-- shade that recycling into-- the whole table would have been flipped over. But I that stuff up,-- I taped it and I gave it to your-- boss, Ks. That hi Acro community. Welcome to another episode of her. You're about to listen to our interview on combating destructive leadership behaviors with Kristen Shields, associate registrar at Governor State University. We discuss Kristen's personal experiences, surviving a relationship with a destructive leader as well as her research involving the experiences of others. She explores the signs of destructive leadership, effective ways of coping with those behaviors and the overall impact a leader can have on the culture and sense of belonging on a team. Throughout this conversation. Porsha Tashana and I recalled some of our own experiences. So I wanted to call attention to the potential triggering effect of the subject matter we're going to talk about, we hope that you can listen and find a sense of community and even relief from our discussion as we all did, but as always remember to take care of yourself. Ok, let's get started. I started working in higher ed beyond the student employee experience in 2010. And, um, I kind of have gone, I worked in two community colleges and now I'm at a four year public university, all public schools, um, all in Illinois. And, um, I started as a department assistant, a part time department, department assistant, moved to a full time department assistant. That's where I kind of had a destructive leadership experience, which you'll, you'll learn about which inspired kind of what I'm, what I'm gonna talk about. And uh then I moved on to be a curriculum specialist and then became the Governor State as assistant registrar and then moved up to associate registrar. So that's kind of where I'm at now. And um I, I have not, my degree has not been conferred yet because I have some revisions to make, but I did just submit my whole capstone and defend my, my uh capstone and pass that. So now I just have some revisions to make and then I'll, I'll have my doctorate in education um in August. Congratulations. And thank you. So, during Acros annual meeting, you co presented your first session, uh coping strategies to combat destructive leadership behaviors. And um we talked about this to Shana and Porsche and I talked about this on our Acro Reflections podcast and said we want to have you um on the pod to talk about your research and that session. So, can you give us just a brief description of the session for um our listeners? In your own words, kind of how you decided to present the topic? Um And why that topic? Yeah. So I, I knew when I experienced my own destructive leader back in 2015. Um I was, I was just, I just started my full time, my first full time position at Higher Ed, I was department assistant and um started experiencing this and had no name for it. Didn't know what it was, didn't know if others were experiencing it outside of my office. You know, another I didn't know how like rare or common, what I was experiencing was I was like, is this what it is? You know, this was my second boss in higher education. I ever had coming from an exceptional leader in my first position. So I just, I had nothing to compare it to. And um but I, I um towards the end of my time there before I left as my GOPI strategy. Uh Somebody in the office sent me an article on um toxic. It was called a Toxic Leadership. And um it was just kind of some general information from Google. So it wasn't necessarily scholarly research, but it helped me kind of put a name to what I was experiencing. And I was like, all right, if I ever get out and experience, you know, life, life beyond tactic, leadership or destructive leadership. I really wanna like bring awareness to it because I feel like it is, you know, because there was an article online, it made me feel like there must be like, this must be happening elsewhere. This is definitely a thing. There's a name for it now. Um And I was like, I'm gonna wanna talk about it at some point. I just don't know what that's gonna look like. You know, I'm, I was so new to higher ed that um I just, I didn't know what I'd be capable of doing later on um or have access to. So now that I'm kind of in my position, I was coming, you know, kind of coming towards the end of my um doctorate degree. I was doing my research on this because this is what I'm passionate about. I um was presented with the opportunity to submit a proposal to acro to present. And I was like, I, what better way to bring awareness to destructive leadership, which isn't really talked about a lot than to present about it, but I, I am not so much a presenter, um Such an introvert. So uh I decided I, I had to put myself out there. I, I um I did get somebody to be like a co presenter more just to be like the support um for my first presentation. So I wasn't there like up there alone. And, um, due to some personal experience, uh, some personal issues, um, the person I had had to back out last minute, um, very understandable reason. So they've got like somebody to fill in. So that was a whole whole thing. But he ended up giving me really good feedback. Um, my powerpoint and I need some adjustments. But, um, that's kind of where it, it all started from was I, I had, I had an experience and I just kind of waited until the right time in my career when I was presented with an opportunity and I felt like I was ready um to go into it. Um I, I brought it to acro and uh it, it's wild that there was such a turnout for any of the presentations that really had to do with like employee wellness and stuff like that. So I didn't, I didn't expect the turnout that I had. Yes, ma'am. It was right on time. Um I know that you all listeners you hear uh Ingrid Tasha and I think, oh, we're besties, which we are, but we do not go throughout the conference holding hands from session to session. So we, uh we do our own thing and it was um funny to talk about sessions that we liked on our previous episode and to find out that, you know, we, we were in the same sessions, Tasha and I were in your session and I was standing in the back amongst a bunch of other people. So that's how full your session was and it was a great session. But it almost made me feel a type of way because I was like, gosh, it's so many people in here have, they have had this experience and that is just a sad thought to think about. But at the same time, I was appreciative that you brought it to the forefront that you did put a name on it because I don't know what the name would be. You just know that you've got somebody who is not in your corner and how do you navigate that stuff? So, so, so happy to have a been able to hear what you had to say and then know that you were doing extensive research on it to, you know, continue the conversation. So I was really, really excited about that. Um What I don't if, if, if, if it's OK without obviously giving any names or whatever, what, what experiences were you going through that um caused you to remember all of this and to later research all um it's some, some dark feelings and um my like people, people I worked with also experienced um things that, that were similar to what I was feeling and um it was just, I, I remember it was just, it was, it was yelling all the time, just unnecessarily yelling all the time. Um I remember coming in one day and I I had kept, no, my, my desk was a front desk position, so I didn't have my own office. I just had a desk, like, out there in like the open office. And I had, um, I kept like all of my very important documents that I had a reference daily, um, kind of like in, in a little like cubby hole on my desk. And, um, my boss had expressed to me that she would be in that weekend to do some house cleaning. And when I came in Monday, I noticed all my important things were gone. Um, so when she was out of the office for lunch or something, at some point, I, uh, I dug through the recycling bin that was filled with all the things I saw she was house clean with and found all my documents at the bottom of the bin ripped up. And I felt like that's just another thing is like taking away things that I need to do my job is just another thing that was like, well, you know, you're now you're destroying my things, you're, you know, things that I need. Um, the yelling was also in front of people. I remember we had somebody working on our printer and, uh, it was like an external, you know, third party person coming to work on a printer to fix it. And she yelled at me about something. And when she, when she left, he's like, I just want you to know that's not you. That's, that's, that's her and, and what she did in front of me, like that should never happen, you know, and it shouldn't happen in private either. But, um, you know, and it was just, it was a lot of little things. Like I've, I've heard worse stories doing my research with them. I had, I had 14 participants in my study and I, I heard even worse things and I thought I had it pretty bad. But, um, I'll tell it to be, to be quite honest and you can edit this out if it's, if it's too dark. But honestly, it's the only time in my life that I, I had, I might not be here today. Had I gone through with things I was thinking for the first time in my life and that's when I was like, no, I need to do whatever I need to do to get out. And I just started to apply to anything I qualified for. And luckily I got a job I actually did really like and want. Um, I was even, I actually had an interview in Peoria too, which for me is a two hour drive from where I lived at the time and I remember it was a $35,000 paying job and I was like, I'll move and try to make it work in an apartment on a $35,000 salary. If that's the only opportunity to get out. Um, it ended up not being the opportunity but, but, um, that's just kind of how it made me feel. And I'm like, if others are, are going through these kinds of feel, like there's one thing to just have a boss who maybe has a bad day every now and then, or just maybe isn't the same vibe as you. But like, you can get through it. But like when it gets to the point that it's bringing people down so much emotionally and mentally that it's, it's making you think things and feel things that you never better not you. Um That's when I'm like there, this is something that's not right. And um I, I wanna, I wanna someday if I can research it, study it, name it, identify it, find out more about it. If more people are experiencing it like that, that's gonna be my goal. What would you, what advice would you give someone like the newest person in the office, the entry level person that cannot pick up and move. It's not as easy as you know, for them. What advice would you give to that person? And the second question, I'm sorry. It's a two part question. But how, what advice would you give me to address that leader, that leader that is, you know, displaying those destructive behaviors? I think it might, it might be difficult to address the leader directly. But if, um I would recommend just documenting everything. So I remember my um my boss's boss, my destructive leaders, boss at the time, I was going to, to him a lot and I was going to hr and I was going to union and everybody really just wanted documentation, everybody stressed documentation. Um But that got me nowhere. And when I was working with my participants for my study, a lot of them said that they did documentation and then it got them nowhere. Um And leaving was the only option that they could, they could think of. And what seems to be um the thing that, that could make the difference is getting other people on board to complain with you. Um For me, I, I could not get, I tried, I couldn't get any of my peers in my office, any of my colleagues in my office to complain with me because I was the only person who had, who are, who was union. So they didn't have union protection and thought that that might um that if they complained, it might result in them getting fired and they didn't want to lose their jobs, they were afraid of that. Um So for me, if they needed, you know, my boss said, if you know, you gotta go to the, get others on board, otherwise you gotta, you gotta stop coming to me because I can't do anything about it with just your opinion, which is something that II I put in my research as a future area of study because it's like, well, something needs to change if, if you can't get others on board to complain with you, like, you're just not gonna believe one person. I think that's a problem. But, um, I think, I think, yeah, I think it's just gonna be documenting every single thing and, and see if there's any kind of, find any kind of proof and documenting it. It also helps you if um your boss ever comes for you, like if your boss ever gets wind that you're trying to complain or report their behaviors, um they might wanna take you down. And so it's, it's good to just be documenting everything that you do and that they do, but also just getting others on board if it's possible because then more than one person can go and approach their supervisor or them directly or hr or union and um having like witnesses, multiple witnesses or people who are saying it's happening, um is always, is always better. I'm wondering if we can ground some of these examples in maybe some of the things you covered in your research, which is what, what is a definition of a destructive leadership behavior as a kind of a first question. How would you be defining that? Because you've already kind of given some examples that are pretty, I mean, those are some pretty intensely terrible experiences. Um And you sort of qualified it by saying, well, there's you know, sometimes is this normal, like there's somehow some sort of behavior that is destructive adjacent, that's normal. So I'm, I'm wondering how you, how you're defining it in your research? I think that's a good question in because it's just like I'm not trying to, we may need to have messaging at the front of this because this is all triggering conversation. But when you think of it's an abusive relationship, so you are constantly going, is this normal? Is it supposed to be like this? And you're second guessing yourself as the victim? So, yeah, I would love to hear that, that definition. Yeah. And so I, I do wanna make, I do wanna, I guess I should have prefaced this is the destructive leadership. I'm that most of my, like that my participants came forth with primarily was like the kind of destructive leadership that really like impacts your well being. But um destructive leaders or leaders just um leaders exhibiting destructive behaviors are not necessarily like mean people all the time. You could have a great boss who maybe a boss is just too laid back and um maybe they're not taking action could be a destructive behavior. So there's, there's so many definitions of destructive behavior um or destructive leadership. Um I guess the one that I'm kind of targeting is the kind that really just like rocks your world mentally. And like um so with that said, I, I kind of highlighted, there's um There's a quote and it's by an author. Um I can't say I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to say the name I Narson and colleagues. It's from a 2007 article and the definition of destructive leadership was repeated behavior by a leader, supervisor or manager that violates the legitimate interests of the organization by undermining and, or sabotaging the organization's goals, tasks, resources and effectiveness and, or the motivation Um well being or jobs, uh motivation, well being or job satisfaction of support. Sorry, that was a long one. But that kind of basically says it's just something that negatively, it's a behavior that negatively impacts like the productivity, the, the well being of the, in the institution, the employees and um could also impact the students um because it's kind of like an if that and this reaction. And so then I've been sitting here listening and thinking about coping. The idea of coping strategies to me means that someone isn't necessarily leaving that environment, right? Coping isn't all about leaving coping is dealing with. Can you unpack that a little bit for us? Um Like people need jobs. I'm, I'm assuming that's why we have to cope. Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah. So um there's all different kinds of I explored like different uh definitions of different coping types, like adaptive maladaptive avoidance, support, seeking, um assertive coping. Um So there's all different ways of coping. Um In my study, leaving was the number one. So out of the 14 participants, I had nine people left the job as they're coping. But other people did other things or tried other things before leaving. So the second um t method of coping was complaining, venting, confiding in um family, friends and colleagues. Um Basically, it was like talk, talk therapy, basically. Um just to kind of get it out and get it off their chest. So that's one way that people can cope if they're just not able to leave. Like in the meantime, people need to do something and it seems like just talking it out and getting it off. So you're not internalizing all of it is a huge help. Um And that's kind of categorized as support seeking coping. Um The second most um common one was talking to hr or the destructive leader supervisor or a union, which is a sort of coping, which is addressing it directly with people who should be able to help. Um And then the 3rd, 4th and 5th, the third one was um avoidance, taking days off, taking mental health days, um taking, taking breaks, taking extended weekends, just trying to avoid, you know, trying to maybe avoid your boss's office. Um So avoidance uh then exercise, yoga, meditation, going for walks, things like that, like things that are like healthy for your body makes people feel better too. And the last one was carving out me time in the day and implementing enjoyable things at home to balance out like the negative experience at work is just like elevating your time at home and making it a a really great experience so that you have a balance. Yeah, that's why it's so important to find your com community, your crew, your fam, however way you wanna label it, um you need to have that, that, that group and that does not mean that it all has to be all work professionals in your, in your career to be a part of that. It could be some but it just can be someone to listen to because I just, oh God, it's so much of a way to keep that inside of you and continue to be in the environment every day working because as you know, you said, angry people need jobs, you know, it's, it's not hard to pick up and go, I mean, it's not easy to pick up and go and you have to just have to be in there and live in there. Um And, and so, and I guess this is me always thinking of this. How does a leader see if they are that dis disruptive leader? Like how can they, how can they check themselves? And is it and can they like, is it a point where they, where they don't see themselves like that? And it's just like they'll never see themselves like that or can they start to do some work and, and make sure they don't ever get to that level. I kind of feel like, and this is just an observation. I kind of feel like those who, so I, I noticed those um because I had like a preliminary survey for my um presentation and some of the people who are coming were coming because they are leaders and they wanted to see if they were maybe demonstrating any of these behaviors And it kind of seems like those who are like mindful of destructive leadership and like, oh, I don't want to be doing that, probably aren't doing it. And those who are don't know that they're doing it because I don't think anybody wants to set out to be destructive. Um But in my research, I did find that destructive leadership can sometimes be intentional or unintentional. So if it's intentional where sometimes they don't know any better and they think that the destructive leaderships they're demonstrating, they don't think are destructive, but they think are just their way of getting kind of power over their area. Um And that's not just the right way to go about it. So I think there might be some room for help there. And something that um I brought up in my research, like later for future research is like the idea of leadership mentor programs um or having a leader, you know, like when you, when you become a leader, when you get a new leadership, um position that you have another leader, like as a mentor for you in that institution, because you know, doctors go to go to medical school to learn how to be a doctor, teachers. Um at least like K through 12, they go through like education classes to learn how to be a teacher. And so, but when you have a leader, like, not like I, I got a degree in leadership, but I've already been a leader before even getting that people become leaders without leadership degrees. So where do you learn how to become a leader? Um So I think some kind of mentorship would be good because then those who are like, hm, you know, this is how I think I want to like get power or like be recognized as a leader in my area. Somebody could be stopping them and saying like, hey, that's not, that's not really positive behavior. Let's let's do this a different way. Um But also leader, destructive leadership can be unintentional and that could be um if the person has some kind of clinically diagnosed mental health disorder or they could be experiencing burnout, it could be a top down situation where maybe they're not destructive on their own and there's destructive leadership coming, you know, from the executive level and um they're just, they're just burned out and, and therefore they're kind of, it's just trickling down. Um But, uh but, you know, when you say it trickles down, then that culture becomes destructive because everything is being tainted now. So how does one swim out of that? I don't know, I don't know if one can. Um I do think that I, so I suggested towards the end of my um defense that something I think institutions need to be doing if they're not already, is that executive leadership needs to be mindful of what destructive leadership is and what are the signs and they need to be looking at things. And I actually made a list of this because I'll forget something is um uh they need to be looking at things like um student complaints, employee complaints, department, culture, turnover, absences, productivity in their departments. And if they're seeing kind of some of these things happening more than they are in other areas, they should really investigate like why is the productivity low? Why am I not getting things in on, you know, on time? Why is the work coming from this office not what it should be? Why are there so many absences? Why are people continuously leaving positions in this office? And I think executive leaders need to need to be looking for that and need to and and it's likely a sign of destructive leadership and they need to be doing something about it, have some kind of policies in place or some programs to help avoid that. Um I don't, I don't have like solutions um upfront right now, but that's definitely something I'd like to get into. But this is just, I don't know that all executive level leaders know that destructive leadership exists and is, is exists and is, is around a lot more than we think and has such a negative impact. Yeah, I know that. Yeah. No, the listeners, Kristen does not have the answer to everything. These are just thoughts and conversations. But um I, I know that um you talked about more things you would have loved to research more. And I think that I, I kind of asked the question because I've always been curious of what is H R's role in all of this, you know, you, you do these exit interviews, you're thinking, you know what I told them and I hope they make a change and then no change happens, the same behavior is continued. Um And this is not to bash hr it's just to want to know more of what are we doing with this information as a employer and as a whole, like, what's the purpose of doing an exit interview if you're not gonna use this information? And this is not the first time I've had that thought and I've actually seen again with my uh gaming degree and knowledge from tiktok. Um I have seen several um you know, tiktoks where they're like, hr like, and it's been seminars where like hr if you're doing the exit interview, what are you doing with that information? And they have no response. And then they're like, well, why, why even take the time out to do this? What is the purpose? So I just, I would love to find more out about that in that side of things. And what, what else would you have uh tried to gather or learn more um while you were doing this process? Kristen? Yeah, that was, that was really good when I heard that in my session, I was like, man, I, I wanna study that, but I think that would be a great thing to get into. Um So that, that was my um my number one on my list when I was in my defense II, I shared that idea. Um So another one is uh I'd like to see how executive level leaders are responding to allegations from employees. Um That one of their leaders is exhibiting destructive behaviors, like what is their process? What are, what are they doing? Um And uh just see if anybody doesn't have any kind of policies in place. I wonder if institutions do have any policies in place for like what happens when somebody comes forth and says, hey, I think something destructive is happening. Another is do any institutions provide leadership mentoring programs for new leaders? Um Our institutions mindful of the signs and impact of quiet quitting, which is kind of a new thing that actually came from tiktok, which is interesting. Um And using that knowledge when monitoring departmental productivity and turnover to investigate the source of the issue which could very well be destructive leadership. And my last one is, do any institutions have policies in place for reporting, detecting, investigating and acting on destructive leadership? Um I have had so many thoughts while this conversation is happening, one, like just some themes I'm hearing, there's a lot here about control. So uh when you talked about like gaining power, Kristen, I think that maybe there's some mixing up that happens where people think that in order to control the work environment and to be productive, they somehow have to control people as opposed to creating an environment where people have control over their work and autonomy. And so then when you talked about the coping strategies, it seemed like a lot of those coping strategies were about how individuals can get control over their life, like get control over their work life. So there's like this, this sort of theme about control, power, reclaiming control over your environment that I think is um is really interesting. And then the other thing um to this most recent conversation about what can you do? What are people doing with data to to Shana's comment about culture, I think there is this culture opportunity of transparency. Um and a a healthy work environment to me is not defined by one where there isn't conflict or where there aren't problems like that. Like I am a messy life is messy. People are messy. Um It's about having a culture of trust where there is an opportunity not just to talk to people about the impact they're having on you, but where like my boss holds skip level meetings with everybody. For you to be a for there to be a connection point between people in different levels of authority to be able to build trusting relationships so that my boss could come to me and be like, hey, I, I know you're meeting with people, I'm hearing these things and for me to be able to take that in a culture where I don't feel like people are talking behind my back. But instead they're like, hey, there's some, there's something going on here, Ingrid is, you know, exhibiting some behaviors or is doing some things that we need correction. So I guess maybe there's a question in all of this, which is about how can you um create an environment where there is transparency and where people are able to work through conflict in healthy ways. What are some ways that that happens? I mentioned skip level meetings but, but what are some others so that people feel like they have control and autonomy and also a place to talk to people in the hierarchy who have more quote unquote power to be able to affect more change in a work culture. I think there's a question in there somewhere. So I uh I think, I don't know that I have the answer to, I don't know that I have a great answer for this. But um I will say um shout out to my current leader because uh he's the opposite of destructive. And I remember one of the things um because I'm kind of a quiet and reserved person. I remember one of the things when I was interviewing for my position I have now was um he said that he would like to see me if I was to move up in a job, he would like to see me. Um, not argue with him more, but I don't, uh like, he, he's not, he would be ok with having like conflicting views from me. And he wants me to express that more and he encouraged it. And um this doesn't really touch on all the, the things he said, but it's just one thing where I think him saying like, hey, if you disagree with me, like, tell me, I, I invite that. I want more of it. I want to hear your points of view so we can like, learn from each other and make the best decisions for, you know, the department and things. And I think if that kind of attitude was expressed at all levels with everybody, um Everybody would kind of feel um like the more, more willing and open and like, more comfortable expressing themselves and their, their points of view without fear of, um, you know, uh without any, any fears of, like, I don't know. I'm trying to think, uh, the word I'm trying to look for, um, repercussions. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're getting in trouble, like, so stuff like that. Um, so that's just, it's a small, small aspect, like, small aspect of what you asked. But, like, that's just at this point it's like one of the things that I, I recognized and I, I think would help it at a small level, but it would help. How do you recover from being in a destructive leadership area as far as OK, I'm not there. I am in an environment that thrives and wants me to thrive. How do I get over the fact of? No, no, no, I don't. I can't, I can't. So yes, when my boss says that to me, I'm like, ha you got my back and immediately I'm like, no, you don't. No, you don't. You know what I'm saying? Because I don't trust it. I don't have that trust anymore because the trust was taken away, thrown away, slashed, beat up and everything. And now I have to regain all these things back. So I would love to, to have to or be in one of your sessions where you're talking about that. So you're welcome. There you go. I think that's a great idea. I, I do wanna share that. Um I, I remember it was, it was like a week into my um my new job when I left my destructive leader and I got my first job, like outside of that and I had a like back to my boss's door. I was like, hey, um can I go to the bathroom and he was like, you don't, you don't have to ask. Go ahead anytime you need to. Yes, I will though. That is so real and I'm so happy that you can laugh about it now. But that is some real stuff. Like I had got let go around Christmas time, like New Year's New Year's. I remember waking up New Year's Day and learning that I had got let go and that was traumatizing that every New Year's. I was always afraid of something that was gonna happen. Um And there's other, I think there's other things that can be worked on like to get that that, hey, can we talk? That's never fun. That's always triggering regardless of how lighthearted they make it feel like just can you tell me what we're gonna talk about? Don't, don't do that open ended. Can we talk? Because that's triggering that is triggering. I don't know what that means and I'm scared and now you got me thinking 1000 different things of what this scenario will be and don't get me in your office and ask that I do this because no, you know why I was thinking about what we were gonna talk about in here. Uh I had a little light bulb go off when you just said Kristen, when I left my destructive leader, um that is not a leader like someone who like the how to reframe what it is to, to be a leader. And, and I, I'm assuming we're talking about people who are managing people, right? And here we have this other comment about leaders at all leaders at all levels, but um someone who does that is not leading, right? Um They're doing something else even reframing that language within the context of this conversation about diversity, equity and inclusion, I think is important. It's like an there's an important step there and I'm not sure what it is. Um what it is to take, that's a destructive people, manager, I guess someone who has been given a function, but they're not leading people anywhere. It would be interesting to give it a proper term or like what would, what would you call that person? Because um something I noticed in um so while there is a lot of research available, um uh like online articles, scholarly articles and stuff on destructive leadership, um all of my books that we use, like in all of my programs, they have chapters on transformational leadership, ethical leadership, servant leadership. They don't have any chapters on abusive leadership, unethical leadership, destructive leadership, probably because you can't really call that person a leader. But it's just interesting that like that concept and I know that often it's like you wanna, when you write, you don't really want to write about, like, what not to do. You wanna be like, what to do and like, but I think that just kind of dances around, like, what, you know, is a, it's a big existence, um, and destructive leadership isn't something that should be skirted around and just, um, I think it does need to be, uh, you know, its own chapter and a name has to be given to it because it's not leadership. If you can't name it, how can you change it? Why are we afraid to name it too? Like, I don't understand. W wouldn't it be more detrimental to have your reputation in the workforce world to be, like? Mm. Mm. Don't, you know, and then you're struggling to get people in as opposed to we addressed this, we've moved forward and now, you know, like I just, I don't understand why we don't. I think the danger is that by not talking about what it is, it sort of gets morphed into being someone's quote unquote style. Like, I, I have definitely heard, like, that's just the way how many of us have heard. Like, that's just the way. So, and so is, that's, they're really good at XY and Z. That's just the way that they are. And so I think by calling by, by still referring it to it as that or not naming it appropriately, it gets morphed into somehow, like a personality trait or something that someone is like when someone is being their authentic self, they are abusing others. I'm not sure. Go ahead. And it's funny that you say that because I think, and shoot me, shoot me if I'm wrong. But I think that's a culture thing because on the opposite side, the black woman now I'm an angry black woman. There is no soft definition to that. So it's just like we're just covering up the BS. Yeah, I didn't even think about the other side to Shaun. You're right. It's, it's 100% right. Because if I'm that leader, you're not gonna say, oh, that's just her style. You're just gonna say she's the angry black woman. Yeah, that's her, that's her identity. Exactly. Exactly. This is a lot. This is a lot. And then you also, you might want to cut this out. I don't know. But this is something that was also brought up by a couple people in my, a couple participants. I didn't address it in my paper because it's, it could be its own thing and I don't know how to address it. But a couple of people did say that their destructive leadership was one color and their leader was a different color and whatever it was opposite. You know, they thought that it was because of that, that the like skip level, like the skip boss didn't want to address it because they were afraid that it might be perceived as like, oh, well, you're, you're just racist. That's the whole thing, like being afraid to address the destructive leader, you know, a destructive culture, right? Because I imagine it's the same way with gender identity as well. What makes for you personally, what makes an environment, what makes you feel a sense of belonging in the workplace? Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, for me. Um, it really just has to do with, am I in an environment where I am valued, respected? Heard. Um Do I feel like I'm part of, part of the environment? Um And it doesn't so much have to do with, you know, are the people around me the same gender or the same color? Um But more just like, do we, are we here for the same reasons? Do we think kind of the same, do we have the same outlook? So, like at least for when we're here, um Do we have the same values, are we able to, you know, interact well? And um you know, I don't know if that kind of makes sense but uh that's just kind of what, what belonging means for me. And um yeah, I don't know, I can't really think of anything else off the top of my head right now. Makes sense to me because I don't, I feel like we learn off of each other just like we talked about before. Um Everything you don't, an environment is not everyone gets along and it's all roses and rainbows or unicorns and rainbows, whatever the saying is. But it is, you know, the difference is, is what you learn from. When we're not cookie cutters, we're not all, should be the same, doing the same looking, the same, that, that diversity is what works and how we get along and how we, how we find a way to belong. And if we don't then yeah, we, it's, this is not the environment for me. I do think that as at least I personally feel a sense of belonging. We were talking about this at the conference where I am cha where people challenge my ideas. I feel like and I, I think an important thing is to recognize that's not everybody's idea of a good time. Like some people don't necessarily feel comfortable having maybe if, if they've thought about it and they've processed it and they, they've been taking time to ruminate on some and they're coming forward with, with an idea. And here I am super happy about having conflict and trying to like ask questions and pick things apart. My way of feeling included and inclusion in a sense of belonging is that person's idea of a nightmare. And I think to the point of like a destructive leadership behavior or maybe what a good leader does is recognize that you have to be able to meet people where they're at. And I might have questions, but the way I frame it, the way I approach them, I might need to like Porsha said that triggering thing, I might need to put something in an email to give them a chance to process it. Like I have some questions, I want you to have the opportunity to think about these questions before they, before we meet. And I think it's figuring out that what really is style, what really is like approach and distinguishing that from what isn't style and approach, which is trying to create an environment of control over people's behavior because you're afraid of looking like you don't have control. That's what a destructive leader is to me as someone who's so afraid of looking like they don't have control and they're intimidated by learning and they're intimidated by how someone's organizing their files at their desks,-- they're going to destroy their property.-- Why are you in my area? Banana Preach? Where are you even here? You know what Patty would have came in? I would have went right to her office and got to swing up.-- Things like that makes no sense to me that she would-- have paper mache-- that recycling into-- the whole table would have been flipped over. But I gave that stuff up, I taped it and I gave it to her boss. Oh Kristen. That, no, that is absolutely horrible. Yes. But you are so right, Ingrid because it is, it is that control factor because just because Ingrid may grip things and wants to tear it apart and understand how this is working. Does not necessarily mean she's coming for you. Destructive leader. It is the understanding of this is how Ingrid works. So she's challenging me because she probably wants to understand better of why or what reasoning I came up with as a leader not to be uh you, you are insubordinate, you're not doing what I'm saying. That's, that's not it. And that, and you're right, you have to get to know the people that, that work with you and how they work. I have 100 I'm sorry, I was just gonna say, and as a leader it's OK. If Ingrid comes to me and I say, I don't know, I'll find out the answer or let's work on a project together. Don't just chump me off because you are superior. Yeah, I think there's a lot of fear. I do wonder sometimes if working virtually too is a part of that. I think there's a lot, I personally experience a lot of fear of not knowing because I feel like on the one hand, I should have the world at my fingertips because I have so much access to information. But because I'm missing the context of working with people, like I can just say, learning a new student information system, it's really hard to, to learn a new student information system in the privacy of my own home as a manager it as a, not someone who's, who's doing and I don't have someone who I can just sit down next to their desk and be like, can I just watch you process that? You know, like I have to, I have to bother someone.-- Um-- But it goes back to what Tashana says is the environment. If the environment is OK where it is nothing but why, hey, I don't know, I don't understand, then you'll get more and more comfortable in saying it now. And I say that from experience because I feel like I'm with you in good in which I'm in an environment where I'm like, I have no idea what's coming on and what's going on. And I have to get comfortable in asking why or I don't understand or can you explain that again? And it has been tough because I felt like I have been expected to know so much because of my past environments in which you're supposed to be the expert. And now I'm in an environment where it is that is just the norm to ask the questions. Kristen, we've covered so much ground with you and taken so much time uh of yours today. And um it has been lovely and been wonderful being in conversation with you. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you for sharing your trauma and watching us see how you turned your trauma into triumph. Doctor Shields soon. To be so yay you and thank you for, you know, putting a, a name to what I've experienced in my past and get, you know, and just the different types of coping mechanisms and all that cause I actually, I loved your, I sat in a session, I was in the front row but I loved it. So thank you. Thank you guys for having me on this. Um It's just been great, you know, I'm, I'm such an introvert. I'm trying to get out of it. So, um but you guys have been so welcoming and same thing with the acro presentation, like I couldn't have asked for a better room of people. Um I just keep saying that to everybody I talk to about it. I'm like, honestly, that was the best room of people I could have ever presented to for my first presentation because it was the most welcoming group of people who made me feel so at ease in like the most like scariest thing I was ever like in uh you know, ever, that was the scar like a public presentation. Um And I just, I, I like that, you know, acro has now given me like this kind of national platform. Um Even if not a lot of, you know, I don't know how many people like, you know, there's only like 70 people in my room qualifying your accomplishment, but you don't know where they came from, from overseas and all kind of stuff. So you're right.-- International that you were wrong, you said national?-- Oh, it is international. Um So I think, I think that's really cool and maybe people will share, you know, but um it's just really cool to be able to get this out and make it more known. It's really kind of part of my mission. So, thank you guys so much. Really for having me. Thanks for listening to another episode of HD. We'd love to hear from you. Please send us an email at HD at acro.org with any feedback you have for us or show ideas. This episode was produced by Doug Macky. Thanks Doug.