Registrar work is social justice work, with Doug McKenna

Tashana, Porta and Ingrid get serious and silly with Doug McKenna, host of AACRAO's For the Record podcast and George Mason University Registrar. The group discusses DEI topics Doug has covered and what he has learned as host, including the importance of recognizing that learning is a journey. Doug talks about why he believes institutions should consider getting rid of grades altogether, why records work is social justice work, and why "certainty" isn't necessarily the job of records professionals. This is a fun, enlightening, and delightfully winding conversation so take the time to listen, learn, and (hopefully) have a good time.

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Hi Acro community. Welcome to another episode of HD Brace Yourselves. We have the one the only Doug mckenna on today's podcast. Doug is the university registrar at George Mason University and hosts Acros for the Record podcast. We invited Doug to talk about the intersection of D I topics he has covered on for the record as well as his current interest in employing institutions to consider getting rid of grades altogether and why he believes records work is social justice work. We had so much fun talking with Doug who has a love for the silly in life. So take the time to listen to this very fun and enlightening chat with one of my favorite goofballs. All right, let's get started. I am just excited because we are here with the, the king, the King of Acro podcast,-- the Kang, not king but Kang, the-- Kang Doug. I don't know if you know, but it's an audio medium.-- So when you shake your head, no, nobody can-- see it. No, I know. I, I'm familiar with the,-- that's going-- before his here. Thank you. Thank you for the reminder though. Sometimes I do feel like people can hear me shake my head because it rattles around in there anyway. It's like a maraca. And then so I feel like people external to my brain can hear that, but-- it's a good reminder that they cannot,-- I find it. I do not believe that they can hear that because your brain is so big that I was like, is it? And that's skull of-- yours?-- I was thinking like, is it the Ren and Stimpy brain or um Doug, I know we're really good friends. But is your title only University Registrar or? So you have you, you say that is not enough?-- No,-- I'm saying like, would you like only fries with that or would you like fries and a shake? There is a little more, is there,-- are there-- additives? There are no additives beyond University Registrar in my title. Um I work at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia. It's the largest and most diverse public institution in the commonwealth of Virginia. Um A lot of people think that either U VA or Virginia Tech are larger by enrollment but they are not. So why do people think that they have been around for a lot longer and they might have more national brand recognition. Both of them have football teams, um or basketball teams that are regularly in national conversations. And Mason, we are still clinging to the one final four run that we made in men's college basketball. Um I want to say I should know. This is, I think it was like, 1986 or something like that. So,-- it's been a while. It's been a while but the-- eighties, the eighties was a good, was a good, they're coming back. Yeah, someone's going to fact check that later and write me and be like, you are a terrible representative of the university. You don't even know when our men's basketball team made the final four. My God, you're right. I don't doug, you've um I mean, I didn't even do the full introduction, but I think that's fine. I think we can go ahead and get started. I mean, I'm Ingrid, not all,-- I'm Porsha-- Lamar-- and I'm the Tashana Curtis. OK?-- Is that what we're doing? All right. And joining us is um Doug mckenna, the university registrar at George Mason University. Just the university registrar, just Doug episode title printed. Doug. You've already started talking a little bit about George Mason, but we like to talk about identity in this podcast. Can you share a little bit about yourself, your identity, your career in higher education and anything you think people should know if they haven't already learned it by listening to your Fabulous podcast for the record,-- sponsored by-- Acro, sponsored by Acro. Yeah, I'd be happy to share. I am a white sis heterosexual, married professional man. I don't know, a professional led right up in there. I, I'm professionally a man. I don't, that's not a thing or is it, um,-- the thing? You just made it one that's the-- thing, professional, man. Uh I've been in higher ed for now, 22 years before I started in higher education. I graduated from college and played in a band which was, uh, now that I am grown and have teenage Children, I realize sort of the grace that it took my parents to allow me to do that. Um, and so I appreciate them very much for doing that. I played in a band for a little while. I temped IBM. And then I got a job at IBM and did really well with what I was doing, customer contract representative and built some databases for IBM. And then they promoted me and paid me and then all sorts of things happened. Um, and then September 11th, 2001 happened and I was actually I flew into New York on September 10th, 2001 to attend a class with IBM. And so I was in the city when everything went down. And fortunately I had rented a car, uh, the, the night that I arrived. So I drove back, we lived in Indiana at the time because my wife Claire had just started law school there. Uh And so I drove back to Indiana on Thursday. Uh It was at the 13th, 11, 12/13. Um, and then got laid off and eventually got a job in the registrar's office at the University of Notre Dame and things have never been the same. So, what was your first position? I started as a degree audit coordinator in the registrar's office and hilariously I knew people in hr and so obviously when I got laid off from IBM, I reached out because Notre Dame is a big employer as institutions, as you will see, have ripple effects through their communities. Um And so they were, there was nothing and then they called me a little while later and they were like, there's this database thing in, we think it's the registrar's office because they didn't know what it was either. And it was building degree requirements in the degree audit system at degree works at that time. So I took that and started working in higher ed. Um My childhood is pretty interesting. I, and I think, uh contributes to how I am as an adult. My dad was in the army. I was born in Panama. Uh We moved every 2 to 3 years after that. And so I've been all over, I learned how to ski in the fifth grade in the Italian Alps from a guy who didn't speak English because we lived in Germany. My dad was stationed in Germany and my fifth grade class, the entire all four of the fifth grade classes spent a week in a chalet because that's what you do. I don't, I don't know,-- I didn't know any different. And-- so you lost me with ski. So I'm gonna tell you that now, like I was lost already. So just to make everyone understand what Glamorous life it really was. We moved from Germany to Leavenworth, Kansas. And so like, that's probably my biggest culture shock from growing up was moving, being able to take a train into Paris or Strasbourg to get lunch or down to ski for an afternoon and then you go to Kansas where like we collected golf balls on the driving range for fun. Like that was, that was the extent of it. Um But two things about the way that I grew up, my, we, we were pretty religious. Uh And my parents, we, my family are Roman Catholic and we engaged with Catholicism in a way that I think would be very foreign to some of the way that Catholicism is portrayed in today's day and age in that. Uh We actually sort of followed that whole serve the poor kind of a thing. And um there was always a sense of love and joy and acceptance. Uh And the need for justice. My dad was in the army, like I said, I think part of what his career, what drove him to that career is this idea of justice. Um And so there were always priests around when I was growing up, there were always, we, I did a lot of work with the Franciscans, um which is an order within the Catholic faith that is uh the Franciscan Friars take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Uh Heavy on the poverty. They're the people who run around in the brown robes. Um, in high school. Sister Act Two. That is actually that, that was Doug, I know he's not, I didn't know if you were going to talk about that dog, your experience in the habit. He was running around looking for a sister. Mary Clarence. I uh sort of, I, I learned how to play the guitar so that I could play the guitar at mass. Uh And so I was a liturgical musician for a while and led retreats. And um then in college, I lived for a year in the seminary. And so I was considering the priesthood as a vocation and I still believe strongly in that vocation of service and of uh again, like we'll say 10 or 15 more times at least, but social justice in loving and in caring for people. And so ultimately, my path didn't lead to the priesthood. It led to being a married professional man uh and having two kids and working in higher education. But I think that higher education also, it was a gift for me to stumble into higher education because of those similar themes of, of service, of care, of support, of equity, of inclusion um are really important to me and have always been even before I knew what those words really meant or uh how higher education enabled those kinds of concepts in real life. Yeah, I can definitely see the parallel in that, especially, and this is just Tooting our own Horn and I'm not to outcast any other department, but especially in the registrar's department, you know, that, that is a huge, huge thing. Um, that throughout my career I have seen and fit right in because had those same sentiments of, you know, anything we can do to help. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I work in an institution with 40,000 plus students. And so it's very easy to just get into a numbers game. And you're like this, this is a form, this is a form, this is a form I reinforce with my staff all the time and I pause myself all the time to think this is not a form, this is a student, this is, we are affecting a change in the student's life by whatever it is we're doing, by processing this exception by, you know, awarding their degree, all of those things like try to retain the humanity of the people who are on the other end of whatever it is we're processing because we do a lot of processing and it can get dry. And so that's like one of the things that I try to ingrain in people and reiterate for people to keep things fresh. It's like this is a person, they have a story is. What part are we playing in that story? Right? Now. So, it's like eliminating the campus shuffle. That's why we call it when you're shuffling a student from place to place. No, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to hold your hand. I'm going to make some phone calls, you're going to say right here and we're going to get this worked out.-- It's unfair for the student to be walking all across campus.-- Exactly. So, I feel that deeply and I agree that the registrar's office is a place on campus that has such a broad view of the activities from a campus. And we're involved in so many different things that we have so many opportunities to provide that really positive experience for the student or the faculty member or the alumni who are engaging with us. So that's a really important part of my job and why I stick with higher education. I think your background is fascinating. I, I would have never ever thought about all the other stuff. Um However, when you were talking about it, I had songs, I had songs I could have sung um because I was not part of the Catholic religion, but I, I went to a school that was so, and I was part of the choir and I sung all the songs. So now I can totally sing. What you were talking about was one of your songs at the here in his background. Do re Mi fa So la T No. But that's that Movie Sound of Music. My son and I used to watch clips from Sound of Music when he was very little and wanted to watch something. And so we would do like the lonely goat herd snippet from The Sound of Music. And obviously Dori me was in heavy rotation when Drew was like 3.5, 4. So later when he's a famous broadway musician, I'll take credit for that. I'll be like I turned him on to musical theater probably since this is a show about diversity equity and inclusion. I feel a need to share that. I do not like that movie and-- I went to Catholic school as well-- and we still accept you how, how you don't like that.-- I'm not sure, but that's fine. That's fine.-- I love Julie Andrews. I just don't, it's, it's real long guys. It's a real classic. We watch the whole movie. I said we watched snippets of the movie I also didn't see until I was an adult. I think I was in my thirties. You are the girl in which I'm going to go back to Sister Act Two. And Whoopi Gold Bar was like, maybe she didn't have. Mary had a little lamb, maybe she didn't, what did she have? And she was like the love boat that I've seen. I did sing in the Notre Dame folk choir as well. And so another fun, like totally random every time I tell somebody something about my life. It sounds more ludicrous than the last thing I told them about my life. But so I sang in the Notre Dame folk choir and we recorded an album at the Abbey of Get Semi in Kentucky, which is an order of Cistercian strict observance. O CSO uh they're known as trappists. They wear black robes with white albs underneath and they are silent. So they take a vow of silence as well. Thomas Merton is maybe the most famous trappist monk. Although in Belgium, the Trappist monks also make beer and fruit cake and like really, really do well. Um That's such a thanks. So we, we recorded an album and a song from that album called Rosa Mystica was featured in the movie Ladybird. So I am on the soundtrack of the movie Ladybirds. When Saoirse Ronan is walking into the church, it's on in the background. Doug, what is your favorite song from Jesus Christ, superstar? And will you sing it?-- You-- know, I this is a, are we gonna break up? I think that we might throw down because I think that God Bell is a much better musical than Jesus Christ superstar and God's spell on the Willows, which is just like on the Willows there, we hung up by her. What's the buzz? Tell me what's happening? What's the buzz?-- Tell me what's-- happening?-- Do we get into-- Jerusalem? When do we get into Jerusalem? No, no, I'm going to stop this? Battle right here-- because I'm thinking of the remix between the both of them. They can-- remix-- that-- up. A mash up. This is, this is all fascinating and it's funny because I've been looking for a group but I would prefer a cappella, but I too have recorded. Um And then I am like a fabulous background singer like I can. That is my, I love background singing. So, yeah, I have Yes, I have some recorded albums out there as well. So I feel a band coming on. We can, we can revive the Yes. Oh, never mind because I cough. Ok. Acro if anyone is listening, I cough, I don't do it for free. All right. Pink Starburst Red Skittles in my dressing room, a fan and we'll talk money. So we are 20 minutes in and we have fully gone off the rails. Doug, you're magically in the seventh season of your own podcast for the record. And this is what you deliver at this kind of content, quality content. Every time you drop an episode in that podcast, you've covered a broad range of topics and we would love it if you would highlight some of the conversations you've had that touch on topics of diversity, equity, and inclusion, what you've learned and how they've shaped your own understanding of diversity, equity, inclusion or justice like you talked about. Yeah. Absolutely. And to, to be clear, I'm so happy that her exists and I am super, super impressed with all of the work that you all have done and I love listening to your podcast, everyone should listen to it. Um It is challenging and revealing and uh it's really good work. So Bravo to all three of you and to the guests that you come on, you bring on. Um One of the things that I have always tried to do with for the record and Ingrid knows this because she told me I needed to do it up front was to be um aware of conscious of and intentional about who comes on as a guest. What topics we cover and then how those topics are addressed. And Ingrid didn't give all of that prescriptive advice. She just said, you know, make sure that you're having a representative sampling of guests or something like that. Um And so there have been a number of episodes that are specifically addressing sort of access, equity inclusion diversity. Um But I would say that more often than not, we talk about those topics in terms of the regular work of the registrar with whatever topic is going on that said, highlighting some of the things all the way back in season one, we did an episode on chosen name and the reasons why calling someone by their name is important. That's shocking that we need to talk through that. But that is um that was one of the earliest sort of specifically focused um conversations about uh equity and inclusion. In the second season, we did an episode uh with a panel on access, equity and inclusion. Uh And then we revisited that conversation in the third season, um talking more, less theoretically and more in practice. Um So that was season two, episode five and then season three, episode 10. Uh also in season three, episode 13, uh season three was where uh the COVID thing happened. And so the pandemic came along, a lot of the episodes that season were focused on emergency preparedness responses, what campuses are doing. But um episode 13 of season three was in response to a spate of violence that had happened against Asian Americans specifically because particular individuals in the administration at the time were using specific language that were inflaming hateful feelings toward Asians. And so bringing on members from the Asian American Pacific Islander caucus um to talk about what that community was going through and um how they were responding to both the pandemic and also their sort of treatment and um language that was being used toward them. Uh There are a bunch more there we talk about the registrars where we talk through um imposter syndrome. Um and ways that identity comes into play with imposter syndrome, impostor phenomenon, women supporting women was another panel of women, not another panel was another episode with a panel of women, not binders full of women, but a panel of women talking about the way that other women have shown up to support them in their higher education careers, which I think was a fabulous conversation for me to be able to listen in on basically and, and to help facilitate. And then, uh one more example is the first of everything where, you know, a person coming through is the first in their family to go to college or to, uh, work in higher education or to get a doctorate. Um And that was all one person. So, you know, having those themes um be able to weave through conversations is really important. You asked me what I learned um and have learned and, and I think that it's really important for people to know that this is a process and especially as a white person in America as a white man, specifically professional man. But as, as an identity, I am being introduced to concepts that I have not experienced in real life directly in many cases. And so it takes AAA pretty tremendous amount of humility to sit with that knowledge after those conversations happen and to really reflect on what someone has shared with me. And then obviously, it's because it's recorded and then published with the listenership um those parts of their lives. And, and so for me, I have learned that this is a process that it's a learning it cycle. There's a learning engagement where there's not an end point like as, as a human being, I'm not going to get to the point where I'm like now I have diversity equity and included like it, it's not, there's not a there, there, it's, it's an ongoing, maybe the treasure was the friends we made along the journey, kind of a thing like, and, and so having the opportunity to talk to so many different people through this podcast has been such a gift and very humbling again. Um because so many people are doing so many amazing things and overcoming so many sort of external challenges to doing that work. And I think that that's beautiful and wherever we can magnify and shine lights on those successes and those stories, we should. But also knowing that those challenges exist now, we have to do something about those challenges, right? And so there, there's a duality here where there's an um there's a didactic purpose to sharing those stories and that is to educate people that there are issues, right? And sometimes people won't engage with something that is specifically labeled as something that's diversity, equity or inclusion, but they may listen in on something that is not specifically articulating those things. And then that's where we get them where like we sneak it in and talk about those things anyway. Um And so that's the educational part and then the next part then is the, the call to action and the really like, how do we go about breaking down some of the systemic problems that cause the issues that people are having to struggle to overcome. And I want to share one thing. Um There are a bunch of books, obviously, uh one in particular by Iris Bonet called What Works. And in it, uh she talks about it's about implicit bias. Um And she talks about how difficult it is to unbiased, an individual person and how, in fact, it, it turns out that it's easier or maybe better or um faster to de bias a system. And so one of the things that one of the examples, the classic example are blind auditions for orchestras. And so when before blind auditions, orchestras were like 98% men. And that's because that had always been the case and who are people auditioning for? They're auditioning for the conductors who at the times again, almost entirely men. And so even if the male conductor thought that they were being super fair open, whatever the result was, they were still selecting men for the seats in the orchestra when people started playing behind a barrier so that the director could only hear the sound, they started selecting the best players instead of the person that felt most comfortable to them. And it turns out that the best players are about 5050 women. And so the the complexion of orchestras changed from these male dominated white dominated institutions to almost overnight in, in orchestra terms, that's like 10 to 15 years, but they went from like 98% male to about 72% male, which is outrageous. Um in terms of a success rate um in about 15 years. So just by changing the way that someone is selected, made a difference in who wound up being included. And, and so that's like one little thing. Uh Iris Bonnet is the Bohnet. It's out of the Harvard Business School. Um I think she's a psychologist but I could be wrong. Doug I'm sitting with um the systems are easier um than individuals and in terms of unbiased with that example, and it ties to one of the questions we wanted to talk to you about was social justice in the context of the registrar profession. So, and I apologize, I went back and tried to find, I remember you saying this. Um and it's something that you and I have talked about on an episode a number of years ago, you mentioned that records retention is a social justice issue. Um And we are working within systems as enrollment professionals um in that space. So can you talk about what you mean by this and why it matters to the registrar profession within this sort of comment that you just made about working at a system level to remove bias? Yeah, I, I remember making the comment and I, I think one of the sort of the context was uh in, I want to say it was Sudan, South Sudan in one of the um sort of perpetual conflicts there. And then also in Afghanistan, um when the Taliban came into power, initially, one of the first things that they did was ban girls from going to school and then they destroyed all the records of their learning. And as a way of disempowering them from going anywhere else to be able to say I have had education, I have been schooled, I have achieved these things. Um And so, you know, as we, and one of the things that um let me back up a couple of years ago, we at Mason Northern Virginia took in um a slew of refugees, specifically from Afghanistan. And we, I spent, you know, nine hours setting up cots in an auditorium in an academic building on the campus in Northern Virginia Community College with a large team of emergency response people both from Mason and from Nova. Um And one of the things that we were talking about was, you know, it sort of getting people in and established with the community. There's a large um Afghani community here in Northern Virginia and helping them re-establish some sort of semblance of normalcy. And one of the questions that kept coming up, you know, from Fairfax County public Schools was like, what we're going to need a record and like, no, you don't. Uh Not right now. And so when I think about like what registrars do and what we provide for students in terms of the documentation of their learning, which is not really what we do, we, we document their participation and completion. Um because as we'll talk about grades don't reflect learning. Um but we maintain their records of participation of enrollment um and enable and facilitate the movement between institutions in the United States and, and internationally. And when you think about sort of what that enables a person to do is to be able to start college somewhere, stop going to college because of a family crisis or uh you know, a spouse got a job somewhere else to go somewhere else and to be able to prove to that somewhere else that they participated in a particular way or that they have earned credits in a particular thing. And this is so, I guess we, we didn't even talk about the, for the record episodes where we discuss sort of what closing an institution and taking on those records means uh in terms of social justice and in terms of um support for individual students as they pursue their educations. But that's really what we do. Like we are the keeper of the records in perpetuity and we don't do that out of a sense of, um I don't out of a sense of duty to the institution specifically, but rather in a way, it's really out of a sense of duty to the individual learners who have taken the time to engage with us, taking time out of their life to come be a part of our institution for a brief period of time. And so I, I think that when registrars think about what we do and, and sometimes people get hung up on like, uh it's f is such a drag or, you know, we just are drowning in data requests or, you know, again, it's, it's coming back to the humanity of what is our job, what? And it's not just keeping all of the rows and columns in order, it's facilitating the movement of people through their educations in order to move on to their other lives, you know, their quote unquote their real lives. So I think that that's what I was referring to we're talking about in that one snippet of like what we keep is really important and, and why we keep, it is really important. Yeah, I think that, um, I, I know that you were giving a, an example but that applies for a lot of different cultures that come here to get, get higher education, you know, um, in Columbus there's a huge, um Nepali population and, and, and you can easily see it because, um, a lot of the things, just a birth date alone, like a birthday. They don't, it's not a birthday, it's a year. That's all they are concerned with. You know, the year in which they arrived to this planet.-- Here's when-- they matriculated on earth. Yes. Yes. So, and then you see everybody else is just 1111 and it took me a minute because I wasn't educated and no one told me and the institution that I was at did not inform me, but I was like, y'all are killing the month of January. Yes. But I mean, it all applies to that, you know, and I see that Tashana had another example is I actually, I'm sorry, do I have a question though? And I actually was at a school um when Hurricane Katrina started um ha happened and a lot of students from Xavier came over to the institution. So we had a similar thing as well. But my question is what in today today? 2024 there is so much identity theft, there is so much if and I see this happening in New York City with the migrants coming, I can be on that bus and just get off the bus and tell you my name is Patti labelle. That's what you're going to put in your system. How are we combating that for higher education? Like how are we gonna get around that? That's a really good question and one that I think needs a careful balance of uh empathy understanding. But also if you want to capture the real thing because that person is going to need that going forward. And so if Patti Labelle comes to my institution, first, I'm going to say thank you Miss Labelle. You are amazing. But then second, like we're going to want to see some ID. And so there's a balance right where, like the, the people that we brought off the buses into this makeshift shelter, not everybody had an ID, some of them did. Um, but, you know, so there's a balance there and you try and do your best to suss out what's real, what's not who. Um, it's difficult often to interrogate intent, especially in situations like hurricane Katrina, like refugees being brought in. Um But I think that they maybe I'm too trusting, but I tend to come down on the side of we can work through this and we can, you know, we'll put your name in as this because that's what you're telling us your name is. And um when you are able, we'll need to validate and, you know, will, is there a family member who can vouch for you? Is there somebody who has something that we can establish with greater certainty? And again, not because necessarily we don't trust them, but because we want to be able to uh confirm with certainty to other entities, including other institutions in the United States or other institutions internationally, doesn't do anybody any good if we accept Patti labelle and then that's not the name that she uses anywhere else. And so we've got this credential for Patti labelle that nobody wants to take because it's not Patti labelle, Ingrid. Did you want to jump in? Well, you can tell because my virtual hand is raised. I so 100 and 50 years ago, you did a presentation on big data. It was like a um an early one. I remember that you an example you use to describe big data to like get the concept across was the sensors, the watering sensors in a vineyard. And that big data um is looking at all of the sensors to glean insights and that there might be some sensors that are malfunctioning. They are um they're not reading information, right? But you can still glean information by looking at the big picture. And I think that was what came to my mind in this example that you're talking about. So if we're looking at a big picture at the context of a a tragedy or a crisis or just an urgent situation like COVID, right? Like think of the things that we did if there was such a a massive need to respond that we sacrificed. So I think the word is that right? Like we sacrifice a perfection accuracy, 100 right, certainty, we sacrifice certainty in service of something else. And I think that that is a really important concept and it does apply to things like data and it does apply to things like insights, it matters and how we execute our jobs. Because if as the holders of of the certainty of the record you can choose. And one of the things I love about the way you explore these topics on your podcast. We can choose certainty 100% of the time and 100% of the time, we will be getting it wrong because that isn't the way that people work or we can choose service, we can choose investment, we can choose people, right? And we will get it right 100% of the time. And that's, I think I, I really appreciate that um that question to Shana and that example. Yeah, because I feel like um it's not, it's not too long ago in which some past generations didn't even really have a birth certificate or at least in, in certain cultures, let's say that um in which is, it's, it's hard to find and that's when you, you know, you go on the show um finding my uh I forgot what that show is called, but then you realize your name was never that name, your grandmother made up a whole different name to just make it, you know what I mean? So it's just like at some point, none of the stuff was like kind of legal in the manner that we take it now. And so seriously. So I do like the idea of it's the service is the service that we're doing and not gain such sticklers on, on certain documents. But yeah, there's definitely a balance.-- Do I want to get you real fired up? And I want to talk about-- grave, fired up one of the topics that I know is very near and dear to your heart. One of your, your crusade as a, as a man with a, as a professional man with a history that you have outlined. One of the topics that you highlight is the history of grading on season five episode nine. I know you talked about this, you talked about it more than that.-- I think you did a presentation on it of Acro if I'm right,-- I did in fact, do a presentation this past Acro annual meeting. And you've suggested that the elimination of grading altogether should be considered. So people should check out that episode in full. But can you give an overview of the issue and why you believe the elimination of grades is important for institutions to think through? Sure, I would love to do that. First of all, understanding sort of how we got where we are is really important when we talk about grades because people assume wrongly that grades as they exist today a through F have always existed. And that is definitely not the case in 1785. Cast your memory back. Uh The President of Yale University Ezra Ezra Styles um in his diary said, grouped 58 seniors into four different groups. And from that four group categorization, we went through 100 years of experimentation with the British system of the Prussian system of different labels, different scales of different values, 100 point scale. A 200 to 400 point scale. Uh all sorts of different craziness that um was in institutional education at the time. And then in 1897 is when Mount Holyoke shifted to the interval letter grade system. So that is when they created the A through F system being one of the first, if not the first institution to do so. And another crazy fact is that they did that in the middle of the school year in an academic year in fall, they were on their percentage grading in spring. They used A through F, they included an E grade, an E grade as a passing grade, the lowest passing grade. And within the 1st 10 years of that system being in use, they got rid of the E because when they awarded an E studentss thought it meant exceptional, which it did not. So then 1897 still all sorts of craziness, nothing going on here. We are in the early 19 hundreds and uh Andrew Carnegie Carnegie created wanted to create a retirement fund, a pension fund for college teachers. And so suddenly it became very important for institutions to be able to say we are a college. And so we should be able to receive the money that Andrew Carnegie wants to give. That led to a ridiculous amount of standardization. Another big thing that happened was immigration into the United States. And so where we saw small sort of one room school rooms now became like the number of students enrolled in higher education in the United States. Between 1870 1910 rose something like 1300%. So it just a total population explosion of people participating in formal education. It was no longer um easy to have instructors administer oral exams and then be able to vouch for uh the student as they went along in whatever they were doing. At the same time, 1910 is when Acro was formed. And we all got together as registrars from different institutions to say if someone comes to your institution and they've been at our institution, what do you want to see so that you can accept their credits? And so the, that facilitated a again additional geographic movement. In the meantime, um educational reformers were saying, you know, we need a standard system in order to assess learning. Uh and that is where A through F slowly by 1970 had achieved an 80% adoption rate in schools. So think of that 1970 80% of the schools were using a through F grades all the way back to Ezra Styles. We have this thing called A GPA. We are still using the four groups that he put together to say, here's a four point, here's a three point, here's a two point, here's a one point and then there's, it's actually a five point scale because zero exists. But let's not, let's not quibble shall we grades have never been a measurement of learning. They are a measurement of a variety of different things even through the 18 something and early 19 hundreds, um, students were awarded grades based on performance on exams sometimes the way that they dressed uh attendance and there's vague sort of participation in class. Uh, all of those things came together to represent and, and were reduced to one thing. A one letter grade which is then translated into a value which is then multiplied by the number of credits. And that is the quality points that you receive for that class, your quality points for your entire college career are added up and then divided by the number of credits that you've attempted. And that is your GPA. And we use that number as though it is a scientific rigorous fact. It is not, there are significant differences between a through F grade schemes among institutions. So some institutions have pluses and minuses. Some institutions use just a 0.5 differentiation as their intervals. Some institutions have uh a four point and the 367 and then 35 and then a 33, all of that is to say it is always comparing apples to oranges when you are talking about GPA. S, not only that but within the institution itself, I'm currently on a grading process task force at Mason where we're looking at whether the grade schemes that we employ still function the way that we expect them to. They don't. And then what do we do about that? One of the things that we've learned is that two um departments on campus do not award C minus grades, they've just decided that they don't award C minus grades because why future classes require ac or better in order to register for those classes. And so when faculty bemoan grade inflation, what they're really talking about is grade compaction because you can't inflate past an A or an A plus, there is a ceiling there. Whereas inflation, inflation just keeps going. So it's compacting the grades at the higher end of the scale. So A through B is really and B minus is really what education is all about anymore. Grades, highly subjective, highly subjective. Every opportunity someone has measured this in in terms of um inter rater reliability or validity. They have found wild differences all the way back to 1908. When one of the some of the first major studies on grades and grading, they took an English essay and distributed it to 40 faculty member. How many grades do you think they got back? Almost. Yes. The the ranges were like from 62% to 91%. And then they thought, well, you know, writing is always objective, let's look at a physics exam, same result. And so it depends on who's grading, who's assigning points, who's doing the assessment. How do they feel about you like those are all embedded within this idea of grades. And we assume that grades are accurate, that grades mean something that grades demonstrate learning, they do not. And so for students in particular, if we're interested in engaging with them and encouraging their learning grades are not. It, grades have demonstrated to be good motivators for cheating for competition versus collaboration. Uh Grades decrease trust between the instructor and the student. All of those go against what we're trying to do in education. And so grades gotta go. Um I think we need a trigger warning for this episode uh with these grades. Um I think that um I wish I had you when I was in high school so you could have talked to my mama. Um And all of this makes so much sense because this is why I feel the way I feel with my youngster coming up through her, you know, education. Now I'm like there, there's no difference between a 89 and a 90 like good job either way, good job, you know, as long as you did your best. Cool. But it's hard to be like, oh, but you need to do better if you want to get into these institutions of higher education. You know, it's, it's just, it's because those are, they have those out there as the rule, have this particular GPA to get in here scholarships and that is a huge drive because no one is affording college. You know. So, and that's the thing. Go back to the blind auditions too. There is significant implicit bias in grading and who are the people who benefit from that and who are the people who suffer from that? There is a difference in today's world between a 93 and an 89 who are the people who are getting the 89. It is not the people who look like me. That is just the way that it is. And so when we say and believe and reiterate all the time about grades, I got an a, I'm an a student, I got a four point, I'm the head of the class. Do you know why? It's called the head of the class? Because in the British system, the the highest performers were moved to the front seat of the classroom, literally physically moved, they moved their desk to the front of the classroom. So that is the head of the class, which again is like the worst pedagogically is the worst thing for the students who are struggling already because now they're in the way back. And all I can see are the back of the heads of the people who are, have been sorted and ranked above them. So it, it's just a mess. I have a question. So when you, you, you said something actually gave me a trigger when you say it depends on if the who the instructor likes. How about because again, I was just registering for class and I'm listening to this instructor, he did a video and he was like, oh, post your picture. That's one thing, I'm not posting my picture for online classes. And the reason being when I'm a black woman, my name is Tashana. I don't want any biases based off of what, you know, what's on paper. So my thought is, and I think I've heard this in conversations with other colleagues instead of having Tashana Curtis. Why can't I have a number like 1234? So that instructor sees 1234 and grades 1234 and not grade Tashana. That's a really good question as well. And this is something that law schools have sort of sussed out better than, um, sort of regular institutions because they do blind grading and they, so they assign a number to each of the blue books and then the students get those blue books and there's a crosswalk that the registrar's office maintains so that the instructor is just reading the response. Now, law exams are different anyway, there's usually one written exam at the end of the term and that's your grade. Uh And so there's a lot riding on it and a lot writing on, you know, doing well in law school in terms of grades. Um, there's not a good reason why, um, grading is not anonymous across the institution and that's actually one of some of the people who are saying like, we can't really get rid of grades. And so we need to minimize the negative impact of grades. And one of the recommendations is to incorporate blind grading, incorporate anonymous grading, um, as a standard practice for your faculty. Um, I had a class that did that in high school, which was kind of cool and amazing. Our last class, you didn't have to take it because, you know, you only need so many credits of particular subjects. But, um, and a lot of it was, if I'm honest because he posted grades, you know, you, you couldn't post grades and post everybody's grade and show next, still not supposed to. But so you had to know your number and you knew what you were looking at when you look at the grade. So in that aspect it was cool. But, um, and others, like, I was like, why are you even posting grades? Like, just slab me a note card and tell me what my grade is. Like, I don't want to see everybody else's, um, because you're right. It's so many other issues that we, and then, oh, and then I wanted, I'm so sorry, I wanted to talk about you didn't even get into this part. But even though you had the letter grades, those percentages were not-- a same across the board.-- That's correct. I, I remember knowing like an a in my school was not an a at someone else's school. So it was like, is it, does that mean a 90% does it mean an 88%? Does it mean 93%? And so there were sort of three systems that melded together into what we think of as the interval letter grade system. And that's the, the categorization from Yale to four point scale um which is retained in the GPA calculation. Um There's the 100 point scale uh which actually the University of Michigan was one of the pioneers doing that. And um we still think of that as a translation for if you get a 90 or above, you get an A um and then the, the letters as um as the signifier, the indicator, the symbol that's used to convey that information. And so those three things combined, each of them have significant drawbacks and each of their drawbacks were not minimized by combining with the other three. It's like the voltron of bad where like they, they maximized and multiplied all of the things that were wrong with the individual systems uh and just made each of them worse. But then we've applied it at basically all levels of institutionalized education in the United States for the last oh no, that's 50 years since the seventies. I I it's so interesting listening to this conversation about systems. Um and the need to be for a lack of a like a as agnostic as possible, like I uh to have to take pieces of people's individual identity just to Shana's example in particular, and Dean has talked about this about how like the name she puts on her resume. I, I just wonder like, how do you both say we need to do things like have blind auditions so that individual bias doesn't come into play and make movement on people seeing people for who they are and not being cool and having empathy. I, I find this to be intention. Um And so I bring that up not to say, not as a count counterpoint. I'm not bringing that up as a counterpoint to your statement at all. Um dug into the, you know, how you're outlining this issue. But I just wonder how we talk about the need to do both and maybe specifically the role of the enrollment professionals or registrars in both, pushing against a system where they can and on making movement on seeing individuals. So that that system doesn't need quite as much um in it in order to prevent people from being able to see people who they for who they are. I think that's a beautiful point and there is a lot of tension in this in the nexus of these things, right? And sometimes it's that some people can't see the forest for the trees. They can't imagine that there would be female orchestra members until there are female orchestra members. And so in a way it it's a chicken and the egg kind of a, a push pull where it's important that we evaluate musicians on their skill. But it's also important that we get women people of color seated in orchestras. And so the the quickest way to do that is to have blind auditions. And so that the people who are selecting the people pick the best players and bar none. Like as I said, the oftentimes or at least an even amount of time, the best player is not a white man. So in a similar way, like we need, we are not yet to the point in America, obviously, we're not in a post racial world, we're not in a like we're not in a place and in fact, we're fighting against moving back from other places um where everybody gets a fair shake. That's just not where we are right now. And it does require interventions and systems in order to help enable the kinds of representation that then we use to say and look, these are people who are doing all of the things and whether it be, you know, playing in an orchestra or being awarded a phd like it's in representation matters and in order to prime the pump of women, people of color, um minoritized populations into normalcy, I think is where the work really has to be done by people who look like me and people who have um traditionally held positions of privilege and of now power in institutions and in the way that strategic plans unfold and the way that, you know, hiring happens or the way as enrollment professionals as the way that students are admitted. Um and then also how students are assessed and the marks that they receive as final grades. So it, it's a, it's a yes and where it, it takes them showing up before there's a show to show up. So, so I have a question um with the blonde auditions, that is still kind of scary. You know, the person may sound like Mozart or whatever, but then when they come around the corner, they see that I'm a woman, they see that I'm black. Now, how are they going? How am I gonna be treated? You know, that's a whole another issue of how that person is treated, although professional, although a genius, how are they going to be treated? Determined that they stay there too? Right. Right. And that is a problem with um faculty members in particular and then, you know, when a faculty member of color or a faculty member from a minoritized population is hired that can't be the person then that everyone looks to for any de I work. Like that's not the point. The point is that we are bringing the best people in and if you're in, you're one of the best people. And so like that is where, again, that's work that people like me have to do and have to engage with other people. Who look like me. Um in order to both educate them on the issues and move them toward positive action. And so that's, there's not a good, I don't have a good answer. I wish I did. No, I don't and I don't, it is what you said, Doug, it's a and like situation like we did this. Now we have to do this and now we have to do this. Um because what is the goal in the blind auditions with the orchestra? The goal is to make beautiful music has beautiful music being played. Absolutely. You know, so it doesn't matter, but it takes leadership to realize that it takes um it take the leadership to realize that it takes the leadership to keep everybody's mind focused on that. Um And, and also have the empathy of, hey, this is not a still not a good environment for me and change the environment. So it is a lot that goes into it that, that also um this is not high ed but dealing with, you know, Olympics that are going on. I know that there is a, a young black woman on the water polo team 1st 1st. And, and it's a lot just for that person to be in those spaces by theirselves, realizing that they carry the weight of everybody in their culture on in their shoulder. But she had to realize like I had to, this is what I worked hard to do. And I have to separate sometimes the weight that I have to carry for everyone and just be me and then hopefully that opens the doors for others. I mean, it, it's, it's not easy, it's not easy and everybody has to play a part. So it's still wild to me that we're in 2024 and we're having these firsts.-- 01-- 100%. I mean, I am, I've been following the Olympics and so having the first all black podium in gymnastics was incredible and not just that is incredible, but the reactions from both Simone Biles, the goat, like the greatest who wasn't even the gold medalist um for the Brazilian gymnast, I, I will butcher her name. So I'm gonna just call her the gold medal winning. Brazilian gymnast, a Brazilian gymnast. That's a lot of gymnasts. So I was making a good point and then I lost it because my brain was like, that's funny the way that the way that, that was celebrated by them at the time that's important for people to see and, and that's an image that will endure and um again, like hopefully spark joy and change. Not just in the black community where, yeah, but in, again, like other places that need changing. Yeah, I wonder what do you, what do you, I mean, if you even have anything to say and you don't have to but those that feel those that feel threatened in the manner that it is taken from them. How, so you got the orchestra blind auditions, someone who is used to being in it didn't, how do we navigate that? How can we, how can someone who didn't get it navigate that? I don't understand this sense of ownership and being threatened for something that was not yours in the first place like everybody has to audition. Yeah. You know, the there have been a bunch of books again, white fragility is a good one. And so talking about or um reiterating that we are choosing the right people for whatever it is we're doing and the right people means qualified. Good fit will be successful has the opportunity or potential to be successful and um meets needs at the time like none of that says to a white man, you are not good enough and everything is being taken from you. It just says that someone else was a better fit but is also qualified but is also has a potential to succeed this again, it's, it's a, it's like, what, what's first is it the representation of people doing amazing things that you know, you get a sense of. 00 yeah, that makes sense. I, you know, of course, that I probably didn't really have a shot there. Um Because Simone Biles was also in the mix. Um But you know that that is a level of national discourse that we're fighting, right? We have people who have called vice president Kamala Harris ad E I hire. What even is that? What, what are you talking about? She is a multi time elected prosecutor. Uh She's had a very remarkable career. What are you talking? She's gonna be the next president of the United States. Like if that's the de I hire, I'm all for it. We should have more de I hires and this is the other thing. Diversity, equity and inclusion are not bad words and diversity, equity and inclusion do not just mean hire black people like that's not what it is. And so our strength as a country, as an institution as this podcast like is our diversity. We have different backgrounds, we look different, we talk different, but we share a bunch of important things in common and those commonalities are more important than our differences. Equity is just what it says, treating people equally, giving people the same fair shake and inclusion is extending your hand to bring someone in. None of those are bad things. None of those are like earth changing negatives. They can be earth changing positives. But it's so, so this, it does lead to I think one of the last questions we wanted to ask you. But again, listening to you all, one of the, what's coming to mind is this i this notion of objectivity. So when we're talking about like doug even as the history of grades, you're talking about trying to demythologize the idea that a grade is somehow an objective standard when it's entirely subjective. And I don't think anyone here would suggest that um subjectivity is something that is like, can totally be gotten rid of in some sort of like academic progress, like. But we're talking about because of bias, creating opportunities for there to be more objectivity or putting measures into place to target bias or to strip it away. And yet when we talk about fairness and equity, I can hear and have heard the notion that objectivity is somehow like the standard of-- um-- well, let me disabuse you of that because I treat my Children equitably. I do not treat them identically. And so different people have different needs. I treat my staff equitably, but I do not treat them all the same. And that's the, that is the difference. And I think that is exactly. So this ties to inclusion and belonging and the question. Um So the question that I had sent to you in advance was-- what makes you feel a sense of-- belonging to me? Yeah, I did. I know you didn't write so well. No, I'm not done. This is like you are you are you are digging it. No, but before like this is so perfect. So I sent you this question in advance that says, what makes you feel a sense of belonging, work environment as I was listening to you, I rewrote it to say and why does it have to involve dad jokes and puns and then you made one. So it was like it was, I felt like when that happened, the skies, the blue skies appeared before me. I heard angel singing and it sounded just like you sing in Gods spell. So Doug can you tell us what makes you feel a sense of belonging? I feel a sense of belonging at work when people engage with me in solving problems, when people listen to my advice, when they consider my advice, they don't even have to take my advice. Um But when they consider my advice, I feel a sense of belonging at work. When people come to me with their problems, their personal issues, their family issues, or, you know, something other than a work issue because that tells me it demonstrates to me that I have created an a receptive environment for them where they feel safe to share who they are and what they're dealing with. Um I feel a sense of belonging at work when I am able to help people, when I'm able to put something in place, whether it be a system, a policy, a form that either makes the student's experience better or easier or makes the administration of that experience more efficient. Um I feel a sense of belonging at work when people are joyful around me. And when I get to share in that joy and where people are silly around me, I have tried uh a number of times to make sure that people understand, not to confuse my joviality and silliness with a lack of seriousness, with a lack of, I take my job very seriously. And the work that I do is very important and the, the pride that I take in my work, it runs deep. All of that said, like if, if I go an hour without laughing, that's wrong, I've wasted that hour. And so, um when there are people around me who will engage in that silliness and respond welcoming le or, um, even a groan and an eye roll, but a smile. That's when I feel a sense of belonging. Doug mccanna, the silliest and sweetest and kindest, the acro goat,-- the-- great of all time, the professional man, professional man,-- you-- know, they call the goat, the person and Survivor that they want to take to the end. So they'll win, you know that, right? I learned this. The goat is not always mean, it's sacrificial, but that's not what you meant. Right? Porsha, greatest of all time. Spell-- out-- goat, greatest of all time. Got it. I've never seen an episode of Survivor. You have it. Um, I used to watch it a lot and then Boston Rob was my favorite. So I just felt like I didn't need to watch him anymore because no one ever lived up to Boston Rob and it comes to decide I'm gonna go on every reality TV show and I was just like, ok, Boston Rob.-- We're good.-- A friend of mine worked on the first two, maybe three seasons of Survivor. And she was like, you got to watch this. I never did.-- That's nice.-- We are a Big Brother House over here, so we were watching a lot of, I'm watching Big Brother. Are you watching it right now? How do you feel? I didn't watch last night.-- I had to-- watch this week. So because it comes on three times a week just for those. So I did just binge was and I'm late to this too. But uh Claire and I just finished watching the good place. Oh, I almost made a good place reference in this very very episode. I've never heard that ended five years ago or something. I just watched um, what's the one with Walter? Walter Wilding Bad? Just watched Breaking Bad. You got to have the first episode and was like, I don't know, it, it starts to become ridiculous like how sir, like it just, it makes me question things like mission accomplished. Shouldn't you be done now? Like, but whatever and I can't get into better cause soul because I didn't like him in breaking bad at all.-- So I don't understand his spin off. So-- Porsha, we'll have a conversation later. OK? Um Doug, thank you so much for coming on the show and spending time with us. We are very grateful and everybody go listen to for the record and come back any time and you know, you can always have-- us if-- you're not listening to. This is just the first part of a home and away series. Oh, yeah. It's a start of a beautiful friendship. I do want to say thank you all very much for having me. I love this conversation and I, again, I'll reiterate. I'm really so pleased that her exists and that you are doing the work that you're doing. So. Thank you. Thank you. We do not exist if it was not for you. True. You're our father. Hey, look, can I get some allowance? I work in higher Ed so broke. That's where the, this is where the Exit Music comes in. Right? That's good stuff. Thanks for listening to another episode of HD. We'd love to hear from you. Please send us an email at HD at acro.org with any feedback you have for us or show ideas. This episode was produced by Doug Macky. Thanks, Doug.