A Way of Knowing Someone: Empathy in the Workplace

On this episode, Portia, Tashana and Ingrid spoke with Chris Boldon, Director or Workforce Data Management in the Office of Human Resources at the University of Minnesota. Chris reached out after listening to our episode on destructive leadership behaviors, offering to provide some information about HR's role in supporting employees dealing with harmful workplace dynamics. And, as luck would have it, Chris is also a researcher on empathy, a topic we've been interested in exploring because of how frequently it is referenced as foundational to promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion. We talked about what empathy actually is, the difference between empathy and compassion, why both are important, and how empathy can be learned.

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We get some of our best content before we start. And it usually involves someone saying something about something else. Someone else. Porsha. Porsha is this better? My turn down. No, too loud. Yeah,-- it's so it's, it's-- better-- you are supposed-- to say, turn down for what I know it was just a lot of aggression. She was giving me, she wouldn't let me in. She know um I'd like to think it was passive aggressive. Hi Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of Herd on this episode, Porsha Tasha and I spoke with Chris Bolden, Director of Workforce Data Management in the Office of Human Resources at the University of Minnesota. Chris reached out to me after listening to our episode on destructive leadership behaviors with Kristen Shields, offering to provide some information about H R's role in supporting employees dealing with harmful workplace dynamics. And as luck would have it, Chris is also a researcher on empathy, what it is, what it isn't. Spoiler, alert, empathy and compassion are not the same and how empathy can be learned. So this conversation both circles back to some topics we covered in episode three this season and propels us further into understanding a concept that is foundational to supporting diversity, equity and inclusion. All right, let's get started. Hi, Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of her. I'm Ingrid Nuttall.-- I'm-- Porsha Lamar and I'm Tashana Curtis. And joining us on the podcast day for a thrilling conversation about empathy and human resources and people and things is the one the only Chris Bolden.-- Welcome to the podcast. Chris. Welcome,-- Chris. Well, thank you so much. I, I hope, I hope you didn't turn anybody off by saying the words, human resources and empathy together. But I,-- I'm-- glad I say I rolled my-- eyes for a minute. I rolled my ass.-- We could hear. I think the audio picked it up for you, Chris. We like to begin by asking our guests to tell acro a bit about who they are, their identity and their professional journey. So if you don't mind, can you help us understand a little bit about who you are? I am Chris Bolden, I am the Director of Workforce Data Management at the University of Minnesota in the Office of Human Resources. I'm also a phd candidate in organizational leadership policy and development focused on human resource development where I study the ethical and effective use of hr technologies and empathy in the workplace. I have been all over the place I did not start out my career uh journey in uh human resources or even in adult education. I started out as an actor. I lived in New York for several years where my wife was an incredibly successful costume designer and I waited tables, but I did occasionally do a few other interesting things as well. And so I've been on stage and on film. Um eventually I moved behind the camera and learned about uh editing software and I got paid to travel the country and teach people how to use that editing software and kind of fell in love with adult education. So I have taught technology and other tools uh around the country. I've, I had uh several 100 videos online when youtube launched that. So I've done a lot of uh a lot of stuff online and taught lots of people in lots of different ways and taught lots of people different things. And so I uh I eventually kind of moved into the learning and development space became an instructional designer. And along the way, you know, I have a fine arts degree, which means I do, you know, lots of things that are legal or at least mostly legal for money. And uh so I've done lots of different jobs uh if I were to rattle off all of my jobs that might take all of our time because, uh you know, when you have a fine arts degree, you take lots of different gigs uh along the way. So I've been a retail bank manager. I was an EMT, I was a combat medic and a pharmacy specialist in the US Army Reserve. And I've done lots of other weird things uh in between there. I feel like I appreciate you telling us to start. But I think you can't actually say that you were those things, if those were your acting roles. Now, I'm just playing some of those things as acting roles too. That's, it's great. You know, I know, I know enough anatomy and physiology to get, uh you know, get cast as that, that paramedic. And-- yes,-- so do I from Grey's Anatomy I gave you. Yes.-- So-- Chris, can you name maybe a movie that, you know, one of a popular movie that we may have seen you in a-- commercial-- or I can. But you, what you saw was my shoulder. So, yes, III I was in, yes, I was cast in a few different things at the uh I was in the film Anger Management with Adam Sandler and Jack Nicholson. Uh very, very briefly, very briefly, but I, I was, yes, I'm on, I'm in wide shots. I'm actually, this was in the old Yankee Stadium before they tore it down and built a new one. So at the old Yankee Stadium, there was a big television camera mounted behind home plate and uh I just randomly, I was an extra that was cast that day and they thought they said, well, it's weird that there's this big camera with nobody behind it. So they called me onto the field and I got to hang out with Adam Sandler's family and eat amazing craft services. Uh And uh and yeah, I was, but you can't, you would never know that it was me. And then I'm also in the stands at the very end, the big uh finish of the, the film when Adam Sandler runs up into the stands and Marissa Tomei, I'm like three rows below them and you can see again just my shoulder and my arm as I high five, my friend. And uh we're, we're all so excited for, for Adam and, and uh Marissa,-- it all counts to me. That's amazing. That is-- amazing. You just-- remember-- that movie. Hello, you got paid and now you got, you got credentials.-- There-- you go. Um I think that the film Anger Management is like a perfect segue into where we wanted to take kind of the first part of this conversation because Chris, you are actually a herd listener. Um And you and I connected after our interview with Kristen Shields about combating destructive leadership behaviors. So you're joining us today to talk about how human resources supports people who reach out for help uh based on the experiences you've had and to talk about how empathy connects to workplace success. But let's start with hr practices because that was kind of how you initially connect did with me on this. What did you want to share with us about what you heard on the podcast and your experience with hr responses to the type of things Kristen was talking about in that episode. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So, what I would say, first of all is just a long time listener. First time caller, I'm so glad to be here and, and just to say, you know, I'm new to higher education. I've, I've only been at the University of Minnesota for a couple of years. Uh, before that I was in health care for quite some time. And one of the things that I did in healthcare was to, to listen to podcasts and, and read books and, and blog posts, uh fro from a lot of the different employee groups. So I listened to physicians talking to other physicians about things that they could do in their practice. And, and it just really helped me better understand um how parts of the business that I didn't necessarily participate in kind of worked and what people cared about, um which is really in, in hr that's, that's what we care about. We care about the employees and, and what they want to be able to do and we want to help them, uh do those things as much as possible and, and get, uh get, get paid and get the benefits that they deserve for doing those things. And so I listened to this when I found out about your podcast, I, I have listened to your podcast and it's been so helpful to me to, to learn more about the things that, that you do in your institutions and that you care about and that you wish that you were able to do. So, first of all, I just wanted to say thank you for this podcast. It's been fantastic and I really have enjoyed listening. Um So, as you said, Ingrida, I, I did, um you know, Kristen's work in uh in destructive leadership is really fascinating and I, I enjoyed that conversation so much and, and in that conversation, uh you know, a couple of times that came up, you were asking some questions about what could we do, you know, what could we do if we, if we think maybe we are destructive leaders or that we have one or that we have one that reports to us, like, what should we be doing? Uh And one of the answers to that question is, is human resources that is part of our job. You know, a lot of times people think of hr um as uh you know, the, the evil extension of uh of the, the institution that the people that come when things are really bad and uh you know, make things explode or, you know, make you leave or you only call hr when you've, you know, you've got a problem with your pay or when you, you've got a conflict that's unresolvable in the other way. Um And so of course, understandably then, you know, most people's reactions to hr are negative, but the truth is uh hr is invisible when it works well. And every single day within your institutions, there is an hr person that is looking at the data that's related to the job that you do and making sure that you're gonna get paid the right amount when you're supposed to get paid. That stuff doesn't happen magically or automatically there's a human being at your institution that is, is really thinking deeply about that. And every time you get paid the right amount on time, uh that's because that hr person worked really hard that, that, that pay cycle to make sure that that happened all of the benefits that are negotiated um on your behalf, that stuff's done by hr if you're part of a union, uh that union negotiation, that stuff happens within. Hr So we, we do a lot of learning and development work and to bring it back to your conversation with Kristen, um you know, destructive leadership or just leadership when we want to develop leaders, when we want to identify those leaders that need development, that's human resources and, and especially within my discipline, which is human resource development. Uh that's, that's our responsibility, that domain is ours. And you talk to Shama uh in a different um uh you know, episode of the podcast and where, where she does uh you know, change management and, and uh organization development. That's also hr d. Uh So again, you know, you've got hr professionals at your institutions that are responsible for some pieces of that. And so, uh you know, when you think about destructive leaders, what do we do, how do we identify them? What should we do once you know, can, can they be developed? Um hr is often just at least the start to answer that question. What do you do when an employee comes to you and say, I don't trust hr how does that work? Because um there are instances that I can speak of where, you know, you think you are entrusting something to hr and before you get back downstairs to your office, your supervisor knows. Yeah, that's, that's right. Uh Yeah, thank you to, to sha and what I'll say about that is that it's, we hear that a lot in hr the, the um uh you know, that, that hr isn't here for you right? That the hr is here for your company and not for you. Uh And number one, I will say that's 100% true. I mean, we all are right. We are all getting paid by that institution to do our jobs. So it's true. Uh you know, they uh the university did not hire me to say I want you to go and represent um you know, this, this set of employees. Uh that's not why they, they hired me, but as you said, there are times where you need or what you want or need to have a confidential conversation. Um, there are people within hr, uh, that, that can have that but I would say if, if you have had that and first, uh, uh, uh, I shouldn't say first I've been talking for a bit. Uh, but, uh, I, I do want to say, I'm sorry that you've had that experience, I've had that experience too where, especially, you know, I was in a, I worked for a tech start up where the, it was just one hr person for the whole company. Um And I felt like we had a good working relationship and I told her some things that I thought were in confidence that she immediately told uh the senior leadership of the company. And uh and it was not a very pleasant working experience uh as a result of that. So I definitely, I know what you mean. Uh What I would say is that the first, the first question that I would ask with, hr especially if you do want it to be confidential is, is this confidential? Is this, are you, you know, do, are you able to or are you, you know, potentially going to share the things that we talk about here? Um And, and you can ask outright, I, you know, will, will this conversation be confidential? Yes or no? Hr is in a very strange position. A lot of times where we have some very specific um responsibilities that, that we, we have to carry out and also we're employees of the institution just like everybody else is. And so it, it's a very strange um set of circumstances where I may be in a strategic meeting. Um And, and we were, we were talking about um you know, the decisions that may harm employees and, and I'm the representative of the employees in that conversation. And so I communicate if this decision is made in the way that you're talking about it, this could have a negative impact on, on, you know, this set of employees. And, and yet, when that meeting is over, if the decision has been made, uh I'm also the person that has to go back to those employees and enact what was decided and I have to communicate to those employees what those decisions were. Um And so it does, uh you know, hr is uh a little bit in the middle of all of that stuff. And so I would say the first, the first thing that I would say in those very um you know, those, those con conversations that you're talking about, Tashana is just ask, is this gonna be confidential? And you know, if not, then I would say you, you may need to go elsewhere to have that type of a conversation uh to start that conversation at least. Um There are other folks, you know, again, I mentioned uh you know, union leadership. So, like if you are a member of a union, you can go to your union leadership and say I'd like this to, you know, I'd like to have a confidential conversation. I've got a problem. Um And so you can, you know, you've got union leadership, you've got your own leadership. Um, psychological safety is important in all of these spaces. Uh And so, you know, unfortunately, sometimes it does fall on an individual employee to ask that first question to say, I, I need to talk to somebody about something but it is very sensitive and I don't want it getting out. Can you, can you tell me that this is gonna happen? So, since our first season, the connection between empathy and supporting diverse equitable inclusive workspaces has been definitely a theme. It's come up a lot, but we haven't really unpacked it as a term like we have some of the other terms that we've talked about. So we want your help, Chris as an empathy researcher. Uh How would you define empathy? And then what's your theory about its connection to success in the workplace? The simplest way to describe empathy I would say is just it, it is a way of knowing somebody else uh where um one person experiences uh an emotion or a set of emotions. Uh And then another person experiences uh what in research we would call a congruent emotion. Uh And that first person sees that sees that happen in some way. Um uh you know, in research, uh there's the full empathy construct. Um it, it is very complex, it's multidimensional, lots of facets to it. Um And I used the term congruent emotion just now uh in kind of the, the first thing that I would say that's really important in empathy and kind of differentiates it from really similar um concepts like uh like compassion. Uh for example, and that is that uh the self and the other. So these two people that are sharing this empathic experience, uh Those two people remain separate if, if I see uh uh Porsche um experience an emotion and I am now experiencing a congruent emotion. There's no question in my mind as we're having that experience where Porsche ends and I begin. Um And not only that, but I uh uh those emotions I know which emotions are hers and which emotions are mine. Um And, and kind of in that self and other dynamic. The other thing that's really important in empathy is that those two things remain equally important throughout that experience. Um uh Some other facets of empathy that are really important as you think about the whole definition of the thing is it has a cognitive and affective components. So there's this kind of top down thought process that happens when I, when I see you experience an emotion, I am uh deconstructing that I'm thinking about. I'm looking at the facial expressions you're making in the context uh that you're, you're, you're making those expressions and other nonverbal cues. I'm comparing those things to experiences that I've had in my life and, and the emotions that I have felt in those moments. Uh All of that stuff happens really quickly, but that is an active thought process in my brain. There's also this bottom up affective process. I see you experience an emotion and I experience an emotion and then my brain says, all right now what's happening and, and kind of thinks like lives in that emotion and kind of reconstructs it if you will. So that both of those things happen sometimes at the same time, sometimes in sequence, but both facets uh are part of that, that empathic experience. Um empathy is also a trade and a state. So it's a trade, it's a thing that you have uh you're born with it. You can, you know, you can rely on it. Some people can, can make uh you know, aspects of empathy or activate their empathy easier than others. Uh But it's also a state, it's something that can be activated and inactivated. It's something that can be learned or grown or it's also something that can atrophy. Um And so both of those things are also true uh within empathy, it has automatic and controlled uh components, it has an internal part and an external part. Um and then, uh finally, and most frustratingly to researchers, there are no direct behavioral outcomes. I can't see you do something in the real world and then point to that thing and say every time you do that thing that's empathy, empathy motivates lots and lots of different behaviors, but there's no single behavior that's tied only to empathy and it makes it harder to study as a result. So how does that move over into the workplace? No matter what industry you're in, how does empathy show up in the workplace or does not show up? And is, is there room for it? Yeah. Yeah. The, the um so how it shows up. So like I said, it is a way of knowing someone else and it's a shortcut, it's something that we have, you know, we've kind of uh uh has grown along with us this ability to, to know other people. So if you interact with other human beings uh in the course of your work, which I suspect most of us do. Um empathy is a tool that you can use to do that effectively. Um The where it shows up. Um So, you know, there's, there's some inputs and outputs to empathy. So there's a motivation uh to, you know, you, you have some motivation to experience this empathy or you can, as I said, there's these automatic and controlled components. So um you can control, you can decide I am not going to and I'm not going to share this emotion. I'm not going to do this. And there are lots and lots of, of reasons um that, that you might do that. Some of those are conscious reasons, some of those are unconscious reasons, but it shows up um in, in the workplace, uh as you said, in any industry, Porsche, it's, it's uh in any industry, any workplace. Um and, and really, you know, the, the key aspect I would say, especially at, at work um is that, that it, it really does a, a AAA good empathic experience is one in which that whole cycle that I described, it is done. In other words, that all those internal things that I described happen, I see you experience an emotion and, and I, you know, I do want to make sure that I say that in empathy, I, I'm talking about the full range of emotions uh often when we talk about empathy, we, we think of, of, of suffering or negative emotions and that we should be, you know, being experiencing that empathy is the whole range of emotions. And so I might see you experience a positive emotion and how we have an empathic experience as well. Um And you know, within that uh that, that stuff happens all the time and it's not, it doesn't need to be overt uh you know, when I experience that internal process. And then there's this uh you know, the concept in, in uh research is often called uh empathic concern. The communication back to you that I've experienced, I, I saw your emotion, I have experienced a congruent emotion and I communicate that back to you. All of that stuff has to happen for, for a true empathic experience and it doesn't have to be stated. Yeah, sometimes you know, I'm a crier. So and I cry uh you know, emotion, big, emotions, good, bad, anything in between. Um I, I am likely to, to shed a tear or two. So it, it can be as simple as you sharing something that you're really excited about. I also get excited. We make a little eye contact and you see that I've got tears in my eyes. That's I I've expressed my empathic concern. We may not ever speak, we may not ever see each other again, but in that moment, we shared a small uh empathic experience together. Um And so that's where it shows up in, in most of your interactions at one time or another. There is at least the potential uh to, to have that type of experience with someone else. So you said something else when you were first defining empathy though, which is that people need to be able to remain separate and like hold their separate identities in order for something to be empathy. Otherwise I know you've said this to me before. There's something else going on. Can you unpack that a little bit because I'm thinking about the potential um outcomes or differences if I experience what if I think I'm experiencing a congruent emotion, but really, it's quite different. So, the idea between putting yourself truly in someone else's shoes versus sort of stealing their shoes and turning them into something else and saying that that's how they feel. I'm wondering if you could talk about the differences between those things. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, thanks Ari. And then that's really, um, you know, as you said, that's self and other concept, that's where a lot of things that are similar to empathy kind of come come into play. And this is also the reason that when you look at the research, you see these big headlines that say empathy is the key to all great well being and resilience. And if you just, if everybody practiced great empathy all the time, then everything would be amazing. And then right next door to that, you see headlines saying empathy causes burnout. It is uh it causes fatigue at work and, and people, you know, you need to experience less empathy at work in order to get through the day. Uh The reason is that they're conflating different constructs. So I'll, I'll use compassion because often compassion and empathy tend to be used interchangeably and they're really different um compassion. There is no uh there's no requirement within compassion that congruent emotion piece. You, you may not experience anything similar to what that person is experiencing. Compassion is almost always discussed in terms of suffering. So like I said, a little bit of crossover. There again, lots of people think of empathy that way as well. But com compassion is really about alleviating suffering. Um And this is something especially in education and health care that that happens a lot where people um you know, are are in the business of, of uh you know, working with other, other human beings and those other human beings may be experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of, of pain, a lot of suffering. I mean, those those things happen and as you are, are kind of sharing that experience with someone, you want to alleviate that suffering and in that, in that kind of connection and that experience uh in compassion, you are willing to subvert your own resources, your own needs. You're willing to let those things be less than in order to alleviate the suffering of that other person. And I, I do want to pause there and just make it clear like compassion is not bad, it is not a bad thing. Uh And, and empathy is not inherently always a good thing. Uh But I want to make sure that I describe both of those differently because compassion, I mean, it's pretty easy to imagine how compassion if, if you continually are having these compassionate acts throughout every day, every week, every month, of course, that's gonna cause burnout. You are using, you're spending way more energy than you're ever gonna get back. Uh you get some back when you alleviate suffering, but you've got somebody else, uh you know, next in line, then if you continually do that, absolutely, you're gonna burn out um in, in empathy that that doesn't happen. So as you said, the, the uh you know, the, the, the self and the other remain separate and equal and all that really means is that you have space to make a decision about what you want to do with this empathic experience in and of itself, you know, empathy, it's got inputs and outputs. Like I said, you've got kind of this motivation to, to have this experience as an input. And you've got all these other behaviors that are kind of potential outputs of it, it can motivate you to do certain things. But in empathy, um you, because you are um you are aware that your emotions are fundamentally different than the other person's right. I am not you. And even if we're sharing so a very similar uh experience, even if we have known each other for years and years, I'm not, I'm not ever going to experience the exact same emotion in empathy. I know that I can feel that I know that I am not having the same emotion as you. I'm not um you know, appropriating that emotion, like you said, that's, there's definitely there are constructs in which that happens. Uh There's uh you know, things like emotional contagion where uh you like, I, I actually do pick up that emotion and uh regardless of my past experience, I am gonna act on that emotion. That often happens, especially in large groups. You see lots of kind of mass panic or mass anxiety. Um And th those are all kind of uh disregulation of parts of this empathy construct. Uh the, the best way that I can fully answer your question. Uh You know, in terms of what should you do or how can you tell uh it's self reflection. Um You know, so many of the other well-being practices that I know that, that you've discussed uh on your podcast really come into play here being able to be self reflective enough to, to explore an experience, you know, right after you've had it or well after you've had it. Uh and there are lots of of development experiences that I've designed in the past too that have that self reflective component, right? Built into that experience so that you have the space to think about. What, what did I just experience? Was it empathy? Did it fall, you know, did it start to bleed into something else? And how can I recognize it if it happens again? That is a great question because when you say self reflection, OK, I'm gonna use me an example. Um I not really a compassionate in the workplace, you know, business is business and I don't really have time for people's emotions and feelings and all of these up and down. So when you say self reflection, I'm looking at them like pull up your bridges and let's get this work done. Like I don't have time for the crying. So I don't know, that makes me a bad leader. It doesn't make you a bad leader and, and keep in mind all of these things that you, that we're talking about are, are so heavily influenced by different types of culture, right? And, and that includes organizational and team culture and in your team, Tashana, that, that may be what your team culture supports and, and what you, you need to do as a leader to get that work done. Uh What I can tell you is in terms of, of leadership and leadership development. Generally, the perception that you are my leader cares about me, right? That's a very common question. That's something that you see on lots of engagement surveys. Um That, that uh and it also is shown to influence things like, you know, uh uh uh potential for turnover. You know, your, your team is less likely to leave if they think that you care about them. Um One of the ways that you can communicate that you care about them as human beings is to empathize with them. That doesn't necessarily mean that when they're crying, you're crying, it doesn't necessarily mean that you um you know, that, that you experience, that you have to demonstrate, um any kind of outward showing of the emotion itself so much as, again, express empathic concern to see, I see that you're suffering. I see that you're hurt. You know, you said, you know, if you're, if you're crying, you know, stop crying and pull up your britches, maybe, um, you know, that and, and with some folks that, that may be a way of expressing empathic concern, but there are others for whom you know, that kind of tough love approach. They'll see that as you don't care about how they feel, you don't care about who they are as human beings. And so, um sometimes, you know, some of these interactions and empathic experiences I'm describing uh they look very different from person to person. And again, that's a little bit of that is self reflection, right? That cognitive aspect of, of empathy, you're looking at that person, you're looking at their facial expressions, you're thinking about what you know about them and what their experience is. And as a leader, you know, in that moment, you are making a decision. This is the way that I'm gonna address this person's emotions or, or the work that they're doing or, you know, any number of different things within that situation. And just for the record, I am a great leader. My team loves me and I love my team. I was just using that as an example and we know that you are. But II I was thinking about everything that Chris was saying and I was just like I have been a more successful employee when I have had the leader who understands or can see my, see me beyond the work that I'm doing. Um And that, and I've never really had a problem with any leader. But when they can actually see, I have been more attached to that leader, but then it also goes to me as a person, it helps, it doesn't enable me, it helps me want to do better and grow. So I think that's a, there's a, a balance as well as showing that that empathy. But then also who am I talking to? Are they gonna continue to latch on to me for this or will they use this to, to get better and grow and do more? Um II, I recently had an issue in which, you know, I had went through a tough time at work and my, my boss wasn't there and I was just like, oh my God, where are they, where are they? Like, I need to talk to them however, pushed through the situation. And I realized after later on, after talking to them going, I'm glad you weren't there because I was able to push through and figure it out for myself and you know, get through it and, and they congratulate to me, understood. And then also took back to the fact that they've had issues, they've done this you know, it, so it was a, a balance in there. And then I've also had moments in which they've noticed when I was not doing great as far as emotionally at the job, looking stressed. So I think I, I know me as a person, I am better when my lead can feel and understand me without even doing it. And I know that it's not too many of them out there. I feel like that. I, I, yeah, I appreciate you saying that Porsche and you're right. Uh you know, and that's what, you know, going back to what I said earlier about empathy is not always good. Uh Empathy is, is a way of knowing somebody else and sometimes the situation does not call for that or it calls for that and a whole bunch of other stuff. So, uh i it's not enough to say I'm empathetic. Therefore, I'm gonna be a good leader. Uh Even if I am uh you know, my, my empathetic practice is very good. Um And I think that that as you said, that, that um you know, a good leader combines that empathy with other stuff and uses that empathetic experience to kind of motivate some, some prosocial behavior, some good uh you know, teambuilding behaviors, some ways of motivating you. And, and it's important to recognize that, you know, I'm talking a lot about leadership because uh empathy is uh you know, research study after study shows that, that empathy in leadership practice leads to better leadership. But the the truth is that, you know, we all uh have an opportunity uh all kinds of of informal leadership opportunities. You don't need to have that formal super advisory relation, organizational relationship to show leadership or to show empathy and, and peers that demonstrate empathy also strengthen that team connection, uh you know, improve people's outcomes, not just for work, which of course are important, That's why we get paid, that's why we come together. But also in your life, when you feel seen, when you feel connected to the people that, that you work uh together with, uh that really influences a lot of stuff and changes uh you know, outcomes of all kinds for the better. There is a difference between owning someone's tears, like taking someone's feelings going in there with them. Maybe that's more the compassion that you're talking about, which is good and is important or being able to take a step back and recognize that and show up in a way that is bringing a congruent emotion that feels like it does have some ties, not just to success but to equity um and inclusion. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that, Chris. Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that, you know, from a healthcare context. They, they teach a lot too and they do, you know, in high ed, when you do hear about um empathy practice in, in the classroom, uh you know, it tends to be focused kind of in that direction as well, classroom management and, and in uh in health care, you see empathy discussed that way um in, in patient care. Uh and, and kind of how do you, how do you navigate that, that patient relationship? So, yeah, absolutely. You do see. Um and, and it is uh you know, it is practice, it does require that because there, there are so many potential things again, you know, from a research standpoint, it makes it kind of challenging to study uh some of these individual facets because it is all interwoven, all of that stuff that I described. Uh you know, the trade and state and cognitive and affective and automatic and controlled. A lot of that stuff is all happening at the same time and it becomes very difficult if you don't have an opportunity to, to perform that self reflection or to do something that allows you to kind of build some of those aspects that you want to be more aware of or have more control over. Um It makes, it makes it more challenging because it really can easily um you know, move from one to the other. You can have e exactly as I described it, one of those empathic experiences and then shift really quickly and, and what you describe, you know, kind of the hair on fire student. Um I, you know, of course, I, I get a lot of employees that are, are similar to that and a lot of employees that are kind of waiting uh in line uh that, that are not um in that state and, and it's really easy for somebody that comes in that um you know, that, that really outwardly displays uh those, those feelings, especially when they're, they're suffering feelings. It's, it's very easy to pick up that uh that, that feeling and that's where I described emotional contagion before or it might slip into compassion. And again, there's nothing wrong with compassion. As long as you recognize that that's, that's where you're moving. You, you've made it, you know, if you can make a conscious decision to say this is gonna take me more time or energy than I had planned on spending in this moment, but it's going to be worth it. Um That's, that's kind of the, the place that you want to be rather than always reacting because we see, I mean, you see a lot of students uh you know, and I see a lot of employees and if uh again, if I'm not, if I'm just kind of reacting to whatever's happening, uh I'm not gonna have any, any energy uh by the end of the day, much less the end of the week or I mean, the, the ability to stay in this, in this job. II, I can't do it. I think it's to me being in this, in this world of higher ed and working in student services is not n not normal for me to see that um in, in the students, right? You know, I mean, it, it makes sense, right? Because some of them are, are 18 if you're working in that type of environment, first time away from home. So you see a lot of that, you see a lot of these emotions shown and you see that you have to cuddle and hold hands and all that stuff. Like to me that was normal. Have you Chris seen an uptick in employees showing these bills now? Um as, as to before when maybe it wasn't as, as acceptable. Yes. Uh Absolutely. And, and I will say, I mean, I think that that COVID had a lot to do with that. I mean, we lost, we changed the way that we relate to other people when we went home. Um And that has fundamentally changed the way that, that we, we know each other, that we work with each other, that we form connections with each other, all of that stuff has changed. Um And uh you know, the, the uh the that dynamic has really created exactly what you described for it. It really is a um uh there definitely is an uptick and it kind of, you know, I mean, I, I guess similarly probably with the, with the student pop, I mean, it, it kind of ebbs and flows depending on what is happening. And where we are certainly within high ed, you know, we, we're a very cyclical industry. We have some very predictable times, uh, where things are, you know, that we need to get some certain things done or where certain things are happening. And so, uh, predictably, uh, you know, at, at the beginning of semesters and ends of semesters, uh, you know, when we're, we're getting ready to do some of those activities. We see a, a very much an uptick in, in, in that, that phenomenon. And you know what, that, that was a good point. You're right. E everybody has, has, has shown more and expressed more and, and I'm, I'm here for it. Um, I thought it was interesting that I experienced something with my, um, stepson and my daughter and myself. Right? We were all in the same, same place and there was music playing and, um, to be honest, it was the song by the gap band. You dropped the bomb on me. OK? And there's a sound in there that's supposed to assimilate the sound of a bomb. Right. Me older, not too old, still 21 generation who has heard the song before. Didn't think anything of it jamming, right. My stepson who also is 21 who heard it was concerned with the sound and then realized, oh, it's part of the music. Ok. Keep it moving. My daughter who is 12, heard it and pure panic attack because it was like, oh gosh, we're getting ready to do something. Hold on. I see people heading to the door, what is going on. And it was just amazing to be like, oh my goodness, this is one song and three different people's interpretation of this sound because of what they have gone through thus far in their life. Saying my, the way I went to high school, college was not the same as the way my kids are doing it and they have different worries and fears that they are encountering that I never had to. So it was just, it was just interesting to, to be in that moment and understand and see that. Yeah, and that mindset, you know, you're right. Uh It's uh as you were talking Porsche, I was, I was thinking more about um your, your question about, you know, kind of what, what we see in employees and, and, you know, one of the things just the way that we, not only the way that we work with each other, but just the way that we work has changed really in some fundamental ways as well. And so, you know, things that, that um the, the, you know, older uh leaders within our institutions, you know, just took for granted. We've heard all of this stuff still, you know, throughout uh not just in high ed, I mean, we hear it everywhere. Um uh including some really big tech companies, this return to the office, you know, push and all of those things and, and we are seeing a, uh uh a younger workforce, uh, actively reject that and just leave en masse and stop applying for jobs when that is a requirement of the job. 10 years ago, we would have thought they were crazy. You know, we, I'm very old so unlike Portia who is 21 just to remind everyone I am quite old. And so I, so I, you know, 10 years ago, uh working in this profession, it would, you know, it would have been unheard of to say no, no, II, I want to work from home four days a week uh for, you know, and I'm probably, and, you know, the kind of this gig economy, the idea, you know, I, I might only be with this organization for a few years and then I'm planning on moving on if I don't get promoted to a certain, right? I mean, like very career oriented in a way that I can tell you. I mean, as I said, you know, at the beginning I, my, my career journey has been very winding. I didn't have a career plan. I didn't think nobody asked me what my career would be. I had an acting degree, a career plan. I don't know, I'm gonna audition for some stuff and hopefully I get one of them. Um And that's not necessarily the case anymore. It really, I mean, we fundamentally changed the way in which we work and, and how we work together and all of that stuff influences these individual experiences that we have with each other. And Chris, you have had some pretty profound experiences in your career that have put you in extraordinary circumstances. You um you were in New York City during 911, you worked in health care in Minnesota. I, I I'm wondering if you, as you are comfortable can talk about some of the things you've learned through these experiences that connects to what we're talking about. So, when I was living in New York, uh, my wife and I lived in, in Green Point, Brooklyn, um, uh, the whole time that we were out there and I was working a day job, uh, that was in, on, on 34th Street and Eighth Avenue, uh, which is about 30 some blocks north of where the World Trade Center site, um, is, and I took the E train. Yeah. Yeah, Brooklyn. That's right. I was, uh, yeah, that's right.-- I'm from Brooklyn, Chris. I just wanted to say that-- I didn't know that. Oh, my gosh. All right. Well, we have, yeah, we got to talk more. Uh I, yes, so, uh, so I was, I was taking the E train into the city and, and the E train, um, kind of went from through, uh, Queens and into Manhattan, but it terminated at the World Trade Center. And so I was on that train, um, uh, when the, the first plane hit and we were in the station for a few minutes and then we kept moving. I got out of the train, I went up, you know, to my office. And, uh, and so I, I will say that that was kind of the first time in New York, you know, for the most part. I, I, my wife and I, um, really, we, we did a lot of theater out there and we've done, we met a lot of great people and, and had some really amazing experiences. But, um you know, New York is kind of this uh really special place where every, it's, it's this both, it's both communal and incredibly isolated, uh depending on where you are and what you're doing at any given moment. And that was the first time I remember walking into the office that I was working in and I saw everybody on the phone, everybody looking out the window. It was on the, the top floor of this building where we could see the World Trade Center. So we could see the two, you know, uh the two towers. Um By the time I had come up from that e train, I could see that the second plane had hit. And so it, we were all sharing this experience, you know, we were all together and, and uh uh that, that didn't always happen in New York, you know, it was pretty rare that, that you'd be in a place where absolutely everyone around you, um, was, was sharing an experience and we were all looking at each other knowing that we were sharing this, this, uh, this really terrible experience. Um, I kind of connected to that, uh, a couple of days later, uh, because we, we were all sent home, you know, and we didn't come back until the following week. Um, and I was, uh, you know, kind of walking down the street in Brooklyn and, um, you know, it kind of a picture if you picture a row of brownstones, uh, like in, uh, in TV shows where you think about New York, that's kind of what it looked like. Uh There were a few people that were, um, sitting out in front of their brownstones on their stoops, uh, and there was a cop and, uh, uh, a firefighter that were walking down the street and, and again, you know, in New York, usually you just, you don't make direct eye contact with people you don't know. Uh And so usually you just kind of, you know, pass on by, uh, maybe give the, uh, give that, that, uh, that cop a little, uh, wide berth because you didn't want to interact with them and, and hopefully they didn't want to interact with you. Um, in that moment as the, these two, you know, emergency service, uh, people were walking down the street, a, uh, a woman um, who was sitting on her ST, uh, stood up and that, um, and I, I apologize, I'll probably, you know, like I said, I'm a crier so I'll cry a little bit here, probably. But, uh, but this woman, you know, who was just sitting there listening to the radio as I'm sure she did every day, um, saw these two guys and, um, ran down the stairs and, excuse me. Um, and just said, I'm, I'm thinking about you and, uh, I've never seen that before in New York. We didn't really, uh you didn't, you didn't experience that with strangers. Um And, and we were, you know, we were all thinking about each other, uh, in that moment, uh millions of people in the city. Um And so, uh, you know, that, like I said, I, I mean, I was in my twenties. Uh, so, um, like Porsche is now and so I, you know, as we were, uh experiencing this, I, you know, I, I just, I remember that was really the first time that I realized that we are, um collectively, uh uh you know, a, a group of humans, uh that um all have these experiences and we can share these experiences or we can't, but when we share them, it's so much more powerful. Um And that, that was really, I, I could never have articulated it at the time, but that was definitely where I started thinking about, about empathy and what it means uh to be, to truly empathize with someone else and just as importantly what it doesn't mean. Yeah, I feel like, yeah, I understand and what you said hit home as far as shared experiences with that. And then the bigger shared experience became COVID, right? But then I feel like how do we life life and then we end up out of these shared experiences and we're back to the same old stuff, you know, and it's just like, how do we find that balance of remembering? We have a shared experience but also moving forward and, and getting the work done in the workplace, uh you know, especially, yeah, in the workplace. That's right. And, and I mean, like COVID, yeah, such a, such a great example. So I was working at the uh at a healthcare system uh when COVID happened and at the time, of course, we didn't have a vaccine, we didn't really know the nature of this disease yet. And most people were sent home. Uh But I wasn't because I was one of the only ones that was uh able at the time to, to teach uh everybody in the institution who still had to see patients how to put the uh P pe gear on that they needed, depending on what type of, of patient they were seeing. Um So I was still going in at a time when we thought it was possible that I could catch it and die or catch it and give it to my family who and we would all die. So, it was, it's amazing when we talk about COVID now and kind of the world that we live in where, uh, my, you know, my daughter just had her annual checkup, she got her flu shot and she got her COVID shot. And, uh, you know, so it's, it's crazy to think about that time now where we still thought that it was in droplets and we were wiping down groceries like crazy people before we realized that wasn't necessary. So all of that stuff, um you know, uh like you said, for, you know, that happened to us all, we, we shared that experience and now here we are trying to do business as usual, at least if not uh if not fully doing it. Um What, what I would say, I mean, especially from an empathy lens, you know, empathy at its core is, is, is a way of knowing other people. Uh And I'll keep coming back to that because I think that it's important to recognize that um all of those shared experiences, you know, I mean, if you, if you think about all of these threads that, you know, we're all threads kind of running our, our own course. And every now and again, you can kind of pinch one or two or in the case of COVID, all uh of those threads together, they all come together but then we keep going, don't we? So we've all got, you know, we all return to those things that, that um those, those daily things that we do, those weekly things that we do. Um And empathy is a way to come back together uh to experience uh you know, some of those things in, in very small ways. It doesn't, uh like I said, I, I, I'll keep hammering the fact that it doesn't, you don't even need to exchange words. You may not even like, you know, other than just that brief eye contact uh or recognition, you may not ever, you know, have that an experience like that with that person again. But in that moment, you can share it and you can acknowledge uh with each other that you can share it. So in the interest of building community, if if empathy is an important part of that, how can people improve? So you mentioned self reflection as as one component of I guess recognizing what feelings you're having, but how can you improve your ability to be empathetic? Yeah, I, so the, the my answer, I I'm I have an instructional design background, I create training. Um And one of the first things that you ask at the beginning of of a training project is why, why do we want to do this, you know, when you want training? Why, why is it that we want, why, why do you want the training? What problem are we solving? What thing do you want to happen in the world that is not currently happening? Uh Because that really drives a lot of the answer to your question, Ingrid uh when we talk about we want to build empathy, you know, do you want to build empathy for yourself, for your team, for your organization, for your, your family? You know, there are lots of venues and situations and contexts in which maybe you think empathy would be a good thing or more empathy uh perhaps would be a good thing. But I would always start with why? Because it tells you where to focus. Like I said, empathy is this big fuzzy multidimensional thing and, and you can't focus on all of those dimensions all at once at the same time. And so you need to know where to look uh and where to focus and the, and the first place that you should go to do that is to say why, why do we think empathy is the solution to the thing that we want? Because it's not always, I love empathy. I love talking about empathy and studying it. It's not always the solution. And so um I, I would say start you, you start with that. It doesn't necessarily need to be a problem but start with what you want to see in the world that you're not seeing. So with that, would you suggest that again? And this is just re bringing up Tahana's story about, you know, she's like business. Let's go, let's do the work. Is that a good starting place for someone who may not show that empathy quality at work to figure out? OK, what, what will I tried to look for in a, in my fellow coworker? And, but where would I draw the line? Is that, is that a good place to, to say it in without? I mean, you said it beautifully, but sometimes I got to break it down in my language. I'm just trying to understand like, OK, I'll listen to your stories. I may comment, but then I may move on and I don't want you to think that that's a bad thing. But at the same time, that's where I draw the line for myself personally. Yeah. Absolutely. Pia. And, and what I would say is that that's um so one key element. I, so the, the reason that I started studying, uh really, I mean, earnestly studying as a, as a uh a phd student and now as a candidate, um you know, working on that diligently so diligently if my advisor asks, I'm working diligently right now on my dissertation. Uh The uh but one of the things that really uh brought me to this topic specifically is that I as an instructional designer, I have had to create a lot of different courses that I realized require empathy. But we don't know if employees actually have the empathy to be able to be successful in those courses. Um And so uh the person that you just described the, let's get down to business, sometimes that person is not the one that's able to diagnose that they lack empathy for themselves. Just like what Chris was talking about with destructive leaders. Sometimes it's the destructive leader cannot see that they are a destructive leader. In fact, they think they know nobody is the villain in their own story, right? So that person thinks that's the way you do business, that's the way it is, it is done, right? Um And so they, they may, if they are self reflective enough, they may just say exactly what you said. I, I feel as though I need to be able to, to have some level of empathy with my, my team and, and to be able to demonstrate that as you said, we, we, we are getting paid to do a job, we have certain outcomes that are expected of us. That's part of the work. And so empathy should enable us at work to be able to, to do those things, to have those, those uh those close connections. Um And uh that's uh that, that is something that um is, is uh an important part of that workplace dynamic. But regardless, so that, that, but that really does bring me back then to uh decide, you know, who is, who is stating, I think we need more empathy because that's the person that has recognized, they think that they have diagnosed a gap, a problem, something that is not happening in the world that they wish would. And so that's the person now that can articulate why they think that it doesn't have to be super complicated. I'm not talking about, you know, applying in instructional systems design and breaking this down into its core components. I just mean, you know, in a sentence or two, describe what is gonna happen in the world when we're able to practice more empathy in the context in which you've, you've decided that you want to build it. And there are a ton of really great examples or, or, or, or reasons why that the uh there might be a problem that you're trying to solve. So I, I'll, I'll point back to uh health care um a health care context because that we talk a lot about empathy there. Although uh I think maybe not in all of the ways that we should, but one of the places that we, we often are focused on um in terms of empathy, as I said before is is that patient care experience? So you've got uh you know, a physician perhaps uh that is working with a patient. And uh we feel as though that physician is not practicing good empathy there. Uh They don't have a good bedside manner. Uh their patients are reporting in those uh those crazy, you know, uh, surveys that, that we all get sent after we visit the doctor and they're 300 pages long. But they're reporting in those surveys. I had a bad experience with this physician. I don't think that they care about me. I don't think that I'm gonna do what they told me that I should be doing to, uh, improve my health. Um, and so, uh, the organization or that physician's leader might say, ok, we need to build empathy in this person. Um So to, and this kind of get back, gets back to, to your, uh your question Ingrid about how so OK, so how do we do that if we've decided that that's something that's desired? Um How do we do that? Um And in that moment, what I would say, there's, there's two piece, like I said, you know, really you could focus on kind of, um especially when we talk about building empathy, we talk about the internal process versus the external process. So the internal process is all of that cognitive and affective stuff, all your thoughts and your, your emotions that are happening inside you. Um And, and the question then is, is that physician experiencing those things? That's, you know, you start with that. Do we think that maybe that the physician is feeling those things? But for one reason or another is not demonstrating to that patient that they're feeling those things or uh do we feel as though they, they are not experiencing those, those internal processes at all. Um Because that really then guides us into what can we do about it? Uh The shortest answer to, can it be built is yes. And uh and the slightly longer answer is that the one of the ways that we know can be uh empathy can be built uh actually very quickly with some pretty easy interventions is that cognitive empathy component, that imagination piece, where can you teach people to recognize uh other people experiencing emotions to accurately um you know, guess at what those emotions might be. Um And then have a feeling as a result of it uh that has been studied in lots of different ways. And one of the easiest and fastest ways to do it is, is uh uh in, in research is called first person perspective taking, but it's role playing pretend to be that person or, or that kind of person. So if we've decided that we've got a, uh you know, a uh an issue with uh with the, the student experience uh in admissions interviews, uh we are gonna create a little tiny role play where one person is gonna be the student and another person is gonna be an admissions officer who's in interviewing that student. We're gonna have just a, a quick role play and uh we're gonna experience it as part of experiential learning, which is what this type of learning is called when you're done with that role play. Uh One really important aspect is, is that self reflective piece, that opportunity to talk about what happened. And so I might, you know, write a role play. That's a page long. And in that roleplay, I'm gonna ask the person playing the admissions officer. I want you to be a jerk to the student. I want you to say, you know, that I've got 20 more people behind you. I don't really have time for this story. Like just get to the, like I just answer my question so that we can get on to the next question so that I can get out to those 19 other students that I'm seeing today. Um And, and then at the end of that role play, I would have a debrief. Uh just uh you know, maybe a half a dozen questions and one of those debrief questions would be to the person playing the student. How did it feel? How did it feel when this admissions officer who has so much power over your life and career and all of these things? How did that feel to you? Um And that experience builds empathy, lots of different research at different times shows that that once you have experienced that you are more likely to empathize with the student in that situation, Chris, as we're kind of wrapping up our conversation today, we've talked about so much that can take energy gas out of the tank. Um And it was Porsche said something to that effect. Like what do you do? We've been asking people what do you do to fill up your tank? Like what do you personally, Chris Bolden, what do you do to um have enough going in order to be able to express compassion? Um Think about empathy. Do the self reflection put time into your dissertation? Um What do you do for self care?-- Because whoever is listening after he is working on his dissertation-- right now-- you took the day off-- to do it, please recognize. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, perfect. Uh uh the, the checks in the mail to you guys. Thank you so much. Uh The um So what do I do? I, first of all, I have conversations like this. So I am, you know, I mean, if you believe in extroversion and introversion, I am I am an extrovert, I gain energy uh from having conversations like this and I made a meeting and speaking to amazing people like you and it, it gives me energy when we are done here. Um I'm, I'm gonna be floating, you know, I mean, I'm not, I feel great and uh and I'm gonna be thinking about this conversation for a while. My wife is the opposite of that. She'd be, she'd love to meet you. Don't get me wrong, but she'd be exhausted after this conversation and want to go to bed. So, uh you know, but that's what I do is I, I love having conversations like this, meeting people learning about their experiences and, and in this, you know, in this conversation, you know, we, we are um I, I think we're demonstrating a, again, empathy doesn't need to necessarily be a big thing and it also doesn't even require that we see each other. II, I have shut my camera off because of my technology problems And yet we have shared uh I think some, some uh empathic experiences together here you can hear in my voice when uh when I'm emoting and when I'm connecting with you and vice versa. And so, um these things happen all the time and I, I gain energy from it. Again, empathy doesn't require, you know, in, in most empathy, you actually, you're, you're, it's kind of energy neutral. Um you know, when you, when you feel it, when you can feel it and, and, and it's uh you're practicing it, um it, you're gaining as much as you're putting out. And so I think that, uh you know, finding ways to connect with folks in this way and it doesn't always happen. But when it does, uh this, this is the, this is the stuff that, that gives me energy. Chris Bolden. Thank you so much for spending so much time with us today. This is, has been a beautiful conversation and you can uh thank you for being a listener to um come back. That's pretty awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me and, and if, if any of those Pesky Hr questions come up, I mean, I'm always available to you. Well, well, ok, hold on pause. What do I do with this Exit interview? What do you do with that? Yes. Yes. That's a good question. Oh, yeah. Well, so, uh what, what are we supposed to do with it or what often happens, Porsha, those are two different questions and is, and is it worth it for me to do an exit interview? Uh So uh yes, it is worth well, is it worth it to you? Only, you can answer that question. Institutions vary widely in this practice. And unfortunately, what ends up happening is often these exit interviews are not utilized in the way that they can a little bit because of the conversations I talked about before we will, the way that they're supposed to be used is we're asking the question, we have lots of data about what when people exit their position or when they exit their institution, we have all of this information about what led up to that, right? I mean, we've got performance evaluations, we've got what 360 reviews we've got uh you know, moving so some people, you know, kind of try to get out from underneath uh destructive leaders and so we can see them kind of moving from team to team to try and find a place that they're going to be happy in the institution. We've got all of this quantitative data that we can just look at your hr is and we can figure out kind of what those pieces are, but we have no qualitative data. We don't know why those things happened until you do that exit interview. So the way that it's supposed to be used is as part of turnover to try and figure out how do we create an organization where people want to stay? That's what it's supposed to be used for. Unfortunately, uh what is often, what often happens is the uh the the leaders who can actually make decisions based on that data don't want to hear anything that's not good and turnover is not good. And so as a representative of hr I go into those meetings and I say, let me tell you why people are leaving and they say, well, I don't like that story. Can you tell me why people stay? So that's, that's kind of the story of Exit Interviews. They are amazing when they are used by the organization the way they're supposed to be. Thank you for that. That, that helps a lot for me to say I'm not gonna do an Exit interview. No, no, that was very informal and I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for listening to another episode of HD. We'd love to hear from you. Please send us an email at HD at acro.org with any feedback you have for us or show ideas. This episode was produced by Doug Mackey. Thanks Doug.