SEM and Belonging: A Conversation with Rakin “Rock” Hall

Portia, Tashana, and Ingrid are joined by Rakin “Rock” Hall, Vice President of Enrollment Management and Chief Enrollment Officer at Arcadia University. We talked with Rock about his experience as a higher education professional working in Strategic Enrollment Management (SEM) at a variety of different institutions, randing from R1s, to medium size state schools, and now a small university. Throughout his career Rock has worked to narrow gaps and create a strong sense of fidelity between systems where he sees diversity as a key part of any successful equation. Rock is passionate about inclusion and plurality . . . and James Bond. You’ll hear us talk about all of this together and how his personal experience has shaped his approach to strategic enrollment management and how he shows up on campus to support students.

Transcript

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Tasha. And can you say something? Remix my mic sounds nice. Check one. My mic sounds nice. Check two chicken, chicken, chicken, chicken. Oh If I could go back to my bi-level-- hairstyle that I had, I had the stack.-- Oh, wow, so-- pepper. Right. I did too. I did-- too.-- Can you say something amidst all of this goat rodeo that's going on-- here. I ain't no joke. I used to let the mic smoke. You're listening to her RD Higher Education and real Diversity,-- a podcast for the Acro Community sponsored by-- Acro. Hi Agro community. Welcome to another episode of HD. I'm Porsha Lamar. I'm Ingrid Nuttle. I'm Tashana Curtis. On today's episode, we spoke with Rock Hall, Vice President of Enrollment Management and Chief enrollment Officer at Arcadia University. We talked with Rock about his experience as a higher education professional, working at five different institutions ranging from our ones to medium sized state schools and now a small university where he has worked to narrow gaps and create a strong sense of fidelity between systems and how diversity is a key part of any successful equation. Rock is passionate about inclusion and plurality and James bond. You'll hear us talk about all of this together and how his personal experience has shaped his approach to strategic enrollment management and how he shows up on campus to support students. Let's get started. Ok. We rock. Welcome to the Herd podcast. Thank you so much. Actually, I did a lot of the uh leg work in getting you here, but this was Tashana S idea and I love it. I love everything. Let me tell you why it was her idea. If you all have not, please do go on linkedin and please, please, please listen to, you know what? You can go on linkedin and follow rock. But you can also just go on tiktok and follow him the best-- tiktok,-- the best talks on tiktok about diversity and higher education. And thank you. And uh uh sem is it strategic enrollment management, leadership? Um Just overall, you know, being good, doing better, I think a lot of that. Um It's funny just to jump in a bit early. I hope it's OK. Um You know, when I was uh coming to Arcadia, uh the president, a very dynamic uh man, a really good guy, Dr J Neer, he was talking to me about tiktok and um he says, you know, we're looking for a new type of vice president, you know, we're turning the page, it's a new guard. You gotta connect with young people, you gotta kind of get to where they're at. You know, and I've heard of tiktok II, I have a 14 year old daughter who was 12 at the time and she was all over it. And so I sat down with her one night and I said, hey, you gotta show me this stuff and let me see what's going on. And um I watched it all, you know, and overwhelmingly, I like it all. Some of it was very funny. A lot of the dancing videos, a lot of the lip syncing videos. And so I said, well, you know, within this, you know, hyper connected communication space, I have to see where I can fit and be authentic and, you know, um while I can tell a joke and do a dance, I said, I don't think that would be the best use of my time and why I'm a huge rap fan. Uh I didn't think spitting someone else's lyrics would be appropriate, you know, I'm from that generation, if you, you know, say it, you wrote it. And so I very quickly landed kind of where my platform sits now, you know, and I lovingly joke with a friend of mine that, you know, I was raised by some really great uh TV fathers. And so my platform, I think it sits between Mr Rogers and Mr T and it's always just that kind of, hey, you're doing good. I know this is tough. It's gonna be OK. Um We all might be of the age where you used to come home and watch the after school specials and that 30 minute hit of, hey, did you have a tough day? Here's how I handled it. And so I always say that on the platform, I hear a lot overwhelmingly, I get a lot of support. You know, there's the occasional very, very mean spirited troll who just says really hurtful things. But, you know, I think that if you're trying to become or change or gain some type of insight, I think you'll find interest in what I kind of put out if you're um a know it all or if you're simply looking to be entertained, uh you might get bored on my platform pretty quickly. But so far, I think it's being very well received, uh much more so than I had even anticipated. Um Some of the views have, you know, a couple of 1000 hits and I'm getting calls from people from around the world who just want to connect and talk to me and I just never thought it could have come to fruition like that. But, you know, I always give credit to the president. He's the one who wanted me to get going on it. It was the intent of it was to be outward facing. I think the intent of it was to connect with young people. And uh I'm just enjoying it much more than I ever thought I would. That is awesome. And I and I'm happy that your president um put you on to tiktok. However, it's also a combination of your president and your authentic self and when you're your authentic self, that's when you blow up on tiktok. I mean, that's, that's all I've seen. So I drop your handle. What is your handle? So everybody can come.-- Uh-- Rock hall. Uh 007. You know, if you, yeah, if you just go to rock hall. Yeah, 007. Uh tiktok, Instagram, linkedin and Facebook. All the basic ones, all the are you in the running to play the next James Bond? Oh God, I'm a huge James Bond fan and I mean huge. Uh you know, I would be a happy extra in the background getting beat up by James. I would be OK with that. OK? If you're gonna be in the background, then I'm gonna definitely need Idris Elba to be down below seven anyhow. Well,-- he-- could be double seven. I'm a huge Idris fan. I'm a huge Idris fan. You know, I think we all have our inner voices, you know, the whole, you know, super ego, ego and ID, I always say my ID is Idris Elba, you know, he's always, he's always in my head talking to me. So I think he's on his shoulder. I love it. I love it. I love it. So OK, if you could because I am going to be honest and tell you I am not very familiar in your world of profession. Can you give us some background of what strategic enrollment management is? Yeah, if there were an elevator pitch, you know, I would say strategic enrollment management is really creating an ecosystem of care around the student experience. You know, um moons ago when I was much younger, you know, you had admissions and recruitment and I think the whole philosophy was at the time, you know, the more you recruit, the more you get in you're gonna be OK. And I think universities really got comfortable with the whole philosophy of simply bringing more. Well, I think maybe a decade, decade and a half ago, you know, I think we just got better, we, we got better informed. I think enrollment management as a profession really started to take off and we really started to understand the student journey, not more so just recruiting and getting them in the door. But, you know, how long do they stay and how do they, you know, kind of persist towards graduation? So a good chunk of my job is, you know, recruiting them, getting them into the university. A good portion of my job is working with student affairs professionals, making sure they have an enriching experience. And then the last part of my job is working uh with alumni and donor relations to make sure that they feel a sense of attachment, a sense of belonging, that they want to support and nurture and care for the university. And so I think the scope of my job is really 360 you know, I, I talk about um the end points and the out points. But I think really at the heart of what we do within strategic enrollment management is finding alignment with students that can fit into the culture of the university. I think, you know, identifying students who are first generation who might need a little support so we can get them in and get them going and also really working on nurturing uh the legacy component, you know, having families come through the university and go through it. So strategic enrollment management, you know, I think the strategic part is just, you know, the trickiest component of it. It's more of an art form than a science. Um But the enrollment management piece, you know, that really is just good old fashioned uh customer service, building relationships and, and working with families. Can I ask a follow up question to that? Because um I mean, you said the ecosystem of care and I'm thinking about how like even taking that perspective um of like evolving some from being like it's admissions and then you matriculate and then it kind of goes from here is, is a new way of thinking, how has your own personal background and experience with higher education kind of informed your viewpoint on that ecosystem of care and like how you arrived at that great question. You know, I was a first generation student. And so, you know, there was a time I was blissfully ignorant of, you know, opportunities and, and, and borders and boundaries. And so I think as a first generation student, when you get into college, so much of it is new, um, you could use the analogy, drinking water from a fire hose. You can use the analogy, you know, jumping into a fire feet first. But I, I think the newness of it all, it was just, you know, just stimulating and as I kind of grew within the academy, as I kind of, you know, progressed from an undergraduate to a graduate and, and got more degrees and started working within higher education, I think, you know, and earlier, it was said this idea of authenticity. I think, you know, I, I was able to empathize with students who kind of came from the other side of the track, but I also got to understand and identify with the students who came from the flip side of that coin, you know, and so I think within the college or university, the trickiest part is trying to maximize all outcomes. You have your first generation students, you have um your, your legacy generation students, uh you have your athletes, uh you know, you have your immigrant population new to the country who need to get in and, and get an education, I think to really try to balance maximizing all those interests, you have to have a decent level of emotional intelligence. I think you need a certain level of empathy. And I think you have to have a very high level of curiosity to constantly walk in and solve problems. Some problems are cyclical. They kind of come up again and again and again and some problems are truly new phenomenon. You've never seen this before and why is it going on? And so I think within the strategic enrollment management space to come into it as a first generation student, to come into it as a black man, um to come into it, you know, really absorbing every life lesson and journey I think helped me out, you know, I'm at Arcadia as a vice president, but this is my fifth university. Um prior to Arcadia was a University of Utah. Prior to that, you know, I think the zenith of my career was at the University of Southern California. I was there for about 13 years. Uh prior to that was William Patterson. And before that, it was Humboldt State. And I've always said that experience makes leaders and nothing makes a leader better than a bad experience. And so uh through five different universities, through multiple um managers, bosses, leaders, presidents, vice presidents, you kind of learn what to do. And more importantly, I think you learn what not to do. And I think a lot of my success, I've been able to strike a balance between the two I've been able to kind of read the room, understand it, um know when to speak up, know when to shut up and just, you know, show up every day and do my best. So when you speak on knowing when to show up and speak up and when not to speak up, what are some of your strategies that you use to promote de I within sem? Well, I, I think a big part of it is who I am. You know, again, I, I kind of represent the narrative that, you know, that the quandary that we speak of, you know, the elusive black male, you know, and um I think that informs my decision making again because when it comes to empathy, when it comes to trying to understand the nuance and the difference within certain cohorts and, and even further down within individuals, you know, within the de I space, you have to understand and value the importance of it. And I think as a person of color and not saying that that, that it's singular, you know, there are a lot of really good white allies. I got a real, a lot of really good Jewish homies who just roll with me. Um But I think as a person of color, you know, to be in that space, it hit you from almost every single angle because you're there. And let's just use me very narrowly. I am a black male vice president within higher education. If you went into a room and threw a stone at all the black male vice presidents within higher education, I promise you you wouldn't hit anyone. It would be me and maybe two other people. There are other black male directors. I think there are a lot of black male senior associates. But if we're very narrowly talking about black male vice presidents, it's a very what I dub in one of my talks, a very lonely walk. Um I tell people that, you know, there is no sideline. You're always in the fray, you're always in the middle, you're always trying to figure it out. You can never go to a lounge and see other black faces of your salary, pedigree and position and just say who Lord have mercy, not today. You know, every single time you leave your door, every single time you leave your office, every single I'm with you guys on a Zoom interview and a turtleneck and a blazer. It's just how we're conditioned to move. You know, whenever you're outward facing, that's what you do. And I think, you know, back to your question a bit more narrowly when it comes to de I in short, I see myself in all those young people, they come to my office, they play chess. I hear their stories a lot of it, I can identify with some of it was much, much harsher than I went through. And so I think when it comes to Dei, I act as an advocate, I act as an agitator, I act as an emissary and I have to manage it from 360 degrees. I have to manage up to the president, I have to manage up and out towards towards the board. I have to manage out towards my colleagues and other vice presidents of different departments who have different needs and asks I have to manage down through my direct reports and then broader out towards the ecosystem of the university. And I think for you to take that stance at minimum, you have to care. Um and you have to be OK with the fact that you're going to get it wrong and, and you know, um to wrap it up quickly, you know, you said what helps you get through some of these um D I conversations and moments, I really think it's the ability to strip ego and be of service and really understand that you're fighting a fight that sometimes you don't even understand, but you have to pitch in and make it better. I like how you broke it down because I, I too have been on a search of just trying to understand people's point of view, their po view, whether I agree with it or not. It is, it is what it is. How do you get um all those people that you work with to, I guess, like ho everybody's not on the same page. How do you, how do you go through that as well in your admission and trying to have that empathy for students and keeping them going through the process of college. Well, you know, when I work with people at every level, whether you're a student, whether you're a junior staff, whether you're one of my direct reports, one of my colleagues, whether you're the president or the board, I really try to find, you know, niche spaces of connectivity. Um Like you said, you know, if you're in a room full of people trying to sway your crowd, you better be really good at your task or have a very homogeneous group of people. I tend to work better in smaller groups. I tend to work better when I kind of work with people and empower them up. You know, um I think that most people at the end of the day they want to be seen, heard and they want to feel that they're being respected, whether it's for a talent, whether it's for some kind of a commodity or an exchange, you just want to feel an overall sense of worth within that. And when I approach people, even if we disagree, even if they're being incredibly rude, I try to convey the sense that I understand you. I hear you. I listen to you and more importantly, I see your worth. We're at a bit of an impasse right here. How can we bring this a little bit closer to the middle and maybe move forward from there. And I think those conversations really happen best within small circles. Um, so it's, it's, it's tiring, it's tedious. But, you know, earlier I mentioned that I worked for five universities and so, you know, you have to be kind of accustomed to landing within a certain space, figuring it out. You know, best case scenario, make a few friends, you know, at least allies and worst case scenario again, know when to be quiet and sidestep a bomb or two. And I think, you know, the ability to land and listen is probably the biggest strength as a leader, um as AD E I professional. Um I think we've all had different bosses and leaders. My least favorite leader is the, know it all. I've worked for gals and guys who just so full of bluster, you know, and um it really shuts down the team unit. And so I think um the ability to listen, the, the ability to try the ability to implement and work with the team, it builds their confidence and when they have their confidence up, I think it just makes everybody stronger. So one of the things you talked about in navigating that 360 like having that 360 degree view of the institution, knowing how to present and represent yourself. And these are going to be my words and not yours. Um know, how to play the game. Like I'm recognizing what the game is and what kind of a player you are in it, right? Ok. So you're doing that and you're successful and yet you see things at that institution that need to change. So how do you balance, how do you approach knowing when you're like, I'm feeling like I'm fit in the vibe of this place and I've got it figured out and then being like, uh, oh, I've got it figured out and it's not a game that I'm that I think is particularly healthy or equitable. How do you, what is your experience there? Yeah. You know, I've been in those situations, you know, I've been at universities that it's kind of what I call the Disneyland effect. You know, if you're visiting the park from the outside, it's all shiny and everyone's dancing and the parades. But I'm pretty sure behind those big wooden fences, once you take off the Goofy helmet, you know, you kind of shake it off a bit, you know, and it's a real job. And so, you know, with respect to chemistry and fit, I think you really have to know who you are and be true to yourself. I think a big part of, you know, of my success going back to my success and me being a vice president, I think I've taken walks most wouldn't take, um, you know, I talk to other professionals who go through it professionally. You know, the leadership isn't supporting them, the campus culture is off. And so in conversations I mentioned, well, you know, why don't you look out and you have that type of professional for whatever reason, they're just landlocked to an area. They're never gonna leave Chicago, they're never gonna leave New York, they're never gonna leave LA. I lived in Utah. I lived in northern California. I lived in southern California. I've lived in New Jersey now. I live in Philadelphia. I think there is something to be said about the outlook and the mentality of someone who can kind of pick up, look out and go. Now I was raised by a marine and so a lot of my livelihood and upbringing, I would come home on a certain night, we gotta pack our bags and go. And so that's kind of how I adopt my stance. So I think you have to understand the type of person that you are. If you're like me, if things are adding up, if someone's getting rude, if they're not feeling you and I'm not talking tough. But I have just said, you know, I've come home, I looked at my wife, I said, we gotta go. She's like where I said, I don't know, we just have to go and I think that if you, you know, work hard, if you have a good name, I think if you are just known as a decent person, you can land and find a job and hopefully it's a really good job that you just really believe in. Now, let's turn the page back and let's say you're from that other cloth. And let's say that for whatever reason, you just will not leave the Bay area. That's a little trickier because then you start dancing around a handful of schools, you know, public, private, big, small and, you know, people are people and people talk. And um, one of the best pieces of advice I got from a dear friend of mine, Doctor Michael L Jackson. He always says, Rock, they're gonna talk about, you just give them something to talk about. And I think that if you're, you know, geographically locked within an area, you really have to guard your name that much doggish. Uh you really have to work on your, your name, your rep, you really have to build outside relationships with broader umbrellas of people. And I think you can survive and, and at a certain point, you'll have to ask yourself, do I stay or do I go? You know, now, for someone like me, it was a much easier conversation. I've been in places where I just physically knew like this wasn't it for me? Like this isn't my last stop. And so it was very easy for me to come home, sit my wife down, sit my kid down and say, OK, I think we have to start looking for another area. So um, you know, I think any professional, especially a professional of color, that's a very real conversation. You know, one of my uh video vlogs I talked about, you know, sometimes as a person of color to move up, you have to move out. Um, and, you know, this is a very broad brushstroke and, and I know there are people who fit into both buckets and, and the niches of each but broadly speaking, I've seen white professionals stay within one institution and just rise to the top. They've made mistakes, they've had shortcomings, they've, you know, messed up the budget. They didn't make a meeting Mulligan after Mulligan, after Mulligan, after Mulligan and then they rise to the top and before you know, it, they're there, I've seen a person of color be five minutes late and be talked about like a dog within a public setting and belittled and pushed out the door within six months,-- within under three years of their contract.-- And you don't know that until you go through it. So like, you know, it, you see the person rise and you're like, oh, I can do that too. No, no, you can't, you can. And I really appreciate you saying that because I've been at numerous institutions and I've actually traveled, you know, lived in different areas. I mean, I was close to Canada and I was down in the south. However, those different positions, like you said, I actually grew my position each job that I took was actually a step up. So it's not like it was a lateral, but it gave, although living close to Buffalo, my challenges as a black woman were really hard. Um But at that, I needed the experience. I wanted the title. I wanted the title. I wanted the experience and stayed there for a couple of years, accomplished what I needed to accomplish. Although I had a lot of rough roads, a lot of rough roads because there was not many people that looked like me, including students. We were just not there. Um But I it allowed me to have grace now and use that as an experience and, and I'm thankful for it. It may have been rough then, but I'm thankful for it. So I appreciate you really saying that to, you know, get up and move on and move around and see what's out there. Don't be stuck in one place because no,-- no,-- no, go ahead, go ahead. 00 no, I was going to follow up that and I was going to say, well, you know, one, like you said, it builds experience, it builds character, but it also lets you know you can do it and let you know you can do it. You know, again, I was a first generation kid. I was kind of raised by a marine. A lot of my childhood was very reactionary. Were the lights on. Was this gonna work? Are we gonna, you know, even eat tonight in all seriousness. And when you get out into the world and, you know, you take a good thumping or two and in my walks, I've taken a few good thumping and there's times where I thought, well, you know, that's a bit unfair and there are times where I had to sit in it and I thought, you know what, you got that wrong pops, you got to really rethink that. And like you said, you really get to a place to where you can kind of learn how to evaluate and reassess in real time. You know, at every university I've worked at including Arcadia. I adopt a small group of, you know, men of, of color, black men, brown men, young men, first generation men. And we talk a lot about leadership principles, leadership skills. But we also talk a lot about the frustrations of life and I use a lot of my realities as I'm sure you do to paint the picture to give the example to have them understand that. You know what it's gonna be ok. It's not always gonna be sunny, it's not always going to be fair. You know, I think the, the the biggest injustice to any first generation student and it's not a bad thing but you have when I was a kid, these counselors, bright eyed bubbly faces and everyone said, God, if you just work hard, if you just show up and give it your all. I promise you everything will be ok. And you know, as a 49 year old man looking back, I can tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. Absolutely. You still show up, you still work hard, you still do your best, but you'd be very ok with, despite all of that at any given point in time, it could be taken away. And when it is, if it is taken away, you always look that person directly in the eye and say thank you because you've done your best. And when I talk to my young men, I tell them in every circumstance you wanna reduce them to a personal attack was rock late. No, Roc was on time. The Roc left the budget. No rock, the budget was on time. The recruitment and enrollment go up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, what is it about Roc? I just don't like him. Ok. Well, we can, we can sleep on that all night, you know, we can talk about that, you know, but you want to reduce them to a personal attack. And so I think within that, within the de I space as we're recruiting these first generation students, as we're recruiting these young, beautiful brown, black, yellow red faces all over the world. I think what I find comfort in is equipping them hopefully to be a little bit better than me. You know, earlier we were quoting rap lyrics and having fun. And it was a rap lyric that J, that Jay Z said, you know, um something about 1/5 and a dime my job is to get you to where I am in half the time. And so with every young person, I'm 49 and I'm a vice president. And going back to the analogy earlier about Mulligan's, I have white friends of mine who became registrars and vice president at 28 they became directors at 25. You know, I would love to mentor and nurture um the next black vice president that lands that position before the age of 30. I um reflecting on it's very intense conversation that I can like, believe it or not, even though I am not a black man, I am a white woman. Um I had a first generation college student. Um And I think that for a long time, I thought that it was like the, you know, figuring out the rules of the game and, you know, we've talked about this portion to Shana, like, don't I think you said, like, don't get caught with your tail out like you do the stuff be the person, be early, don't make people uncomfortable. And I think what I realized was that there to your point, there are some things about, there's some things about me when I'm being my authentic self that may or may not be, you know, life is very subjective. Maybe they suck but you know, they are, I am who I am. But when I'm, when I'm making people feel uncomfortable, sometimes I'm like the most comfortable that I am. I'm like, I am my authentic self because I value being direct or I value um like conflict doesn't bother me. But I think it's always this tension of being like I'm super comfortable being uncomfortable and then looking around and being like uh oh am I, how does Porsche feel or how does Tashana feel? Like, how, how am I making other people feel? And is it different if I'm making um Tashana or p should be like Ingrid like knock it off versus someone who looks like me. And so I think some of that in like higher ed and the de I space in general is like really, really complicated to figure out and you don't know until you start doing it. So I'm, yeah, if you have sort of thoughts and reflections on that. Yeah. Yeah, I do. You know, it's funny, I think of it in two parts. The first part you talk about, you know, your um and, and we're just talking but you mentioned the latitude you have to make people feel uncomfortable. I guarantee you, Tashana and Porsha, they don't have the same latitude to make people uncomfortable if you get upset. If, if, if you're making people uncomfortable, boy, that is gumption, she is just showing up and showing out and you know, she's been that way since she was seven. Let one of your sisters take the exact same energy. I knew they weren't ready, you know, iii, I knew they couldn't do it, you know, crazy black woman. And so I, I think to a certain degree when we talk of advocacy, agency, allyship, we really have to understand the physical makeup of the person within that role, you know, overwhelmingly with people of color when we get upset and, and I'm not even talking about slamming the fist. I'm talking about a slightly pitched voice. It is seemed as overly aggressive, overly male, overly dominant, broadly speaking, when white people get upset, it is seen as overly female, overly non aggressive, you know, just kind of a conversation. So whenever you a white guy, an Asian guy, you guys get upset, it's, it's, it's so digestible, you know, if I get upset and I'm a pretty big guy, so I kind of get it. But even if one of you get upset, there is no stomach for it whatsoever. And so I think the latitude that's given within those spaces for, for, for, for advocacy for agency, um it just plays out different for different people. And again, as a black person, I mentioned, you know, knowing when to shut up, there are some people, when I say that line, it makes them cringe a bit. What do you mean? You gotta shut up as a black person within any situation, you have to know when to shut up, you have to know when to just read the room. You have to know when, even if you're taking, you know, a thump, just be quiet and observe, go home and unpack it later and come back the next day. So I think that's the first part of that, I think to the second part of, of, of your analogy and, and your question, when allies do have a high level of emotional intelligence, it is so refreshing and welcomed what you said earlier, you acknowledged, you know, your phenotype, you acknowledge, you know, maybe some of the edges and you say when I'm in a room, I'm, I'm very cognizant of that, the fact that you're cognizant of that, that puts you a few football fields ahead of other people. You know, there are some people who might take the stance of an ally but they're, you know, not so quick to get uncomfortable, they might take the stance of an ally, but they're so attached to, you know, you know, the politics of persuasion and, and, and trying to be uh you know, to, to try to fit in II I think that, you know, within the de I space, you have to make a little noise. I think you have to be politically astute, but I think you have to be firm in who you are. You know, I give talks going back to my young men groups when I talk about leadership and I always say how leadership you have to know where you stand, you can't straddle the line. You have to be here or you have to be here, but you can't do this. And so I think, you know, within the de I space, we need voices from every single corner of the world, black, white, male, female, Asian, gay, straight, trans, non binary. I've always said that if you're overwhelmingly working towards the arc of good chances are I'm gonna join your fight and I'm gonna jump in and help you out. And so um to, to, to, to your point to wrap it up. I am very OK with um imperfection, you know, um it's that old line that, you know, you're not looking for perfection, you're looking for persistence. I think the fact that when allies continue to show up, even if they fall, even if they get it wrong because again, I've gotten it wrong and I, I've had to sit in it as a black man. I've said some things that, you know, ran up against other protected groups that I didn't realize, you know, in, in my identity, but right or wrong up or down. If you're an ally, I would think that it is just so important that you continue to show up. Persistence is the key. So one thing there is a book out there that um I'm gonna say, and I don't know if this is promoting or anything. I have not read it yet but I'm so intrigued. It's called, I am not yelling. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.-- Uh-- A black woman's guide to navigating the workplace by Elizabeth Liba. Um I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing her name. Right. But I 100% have to read that. Um because it relates to everything that you were talking about. You and Ingrid. Um Also with, we're talking about um having everyone work together in this, in this work of DE I and enrollment and, you know, higher education. How can you get other departments to help you in this? Uh You've got your registrars, you've got financial aid. Uh How do we get all of our offices to play well together in the work of DE I and strategic enrollment? Yeah. Um Two ways uh quickly another book to, to look into uh the gentleman uh from the apprentice, incredibly smart man. I believe it's Randall Taylor, black faces in white spaces, black faces in white spaces. A really good read. I get no money from that. It's not a promotion. It's just a good read. Um To your question regarding buy in, I think with respect to buy in. You know, again, it happens in one of two ways. You're lucky when it comes from the top down, you know. Um Our president walks the walk, our president talks, the talk. He's big on uh de I, he's big on Jedi initiatives. You know, anti-black racist uh uh initiatives, combating anti-black racist initiatives that makes it so much easier for us to walk and talk and kind of synthesize the message. You know, I think it also helps if there's diversity within leadership. You know, I say leadership is everything. Leadership sets the tone. It, it, you know, it changes the acoustic of the conversation in the room when you have leaders who buy into it because it's easier when things kind of roll downhill. Sometimes, oftentimes you'll have, like you said that one de I person who has to kind of fight uphill a lot who has to kind of roll the ball uphill every single morning only to watch it roll back down the hill again. And I think that situation is a little trickier because in essence, the idea that you can change the culture is almost impossible to even think of. Chances are you can't change the culture if you're kind of swimming uphill, if things are rolling downhill, hopefully you can change the culture and not even, that's a guarantee. But when you find, when you're swimming uphill, I think you have to find allies. You have to find people in certain departments who kind of identify with your stance. You know, again, and that's the trickiest part. That's what we're talking about here. And I think, you know, the great uh Doctor Martin Luther King said it, you know, he says it's not the staunch advocates or allies. It's the people who are lukewarm in the middle that you have to try to move. And so I think if you can find an ally, find, you know, a person, even if you can't change the culture, find someone who takes your stance, who understands your fight. And that way, at least when you go home, you don't feel like you're crazy. I think some of the frustration with a lot of DE I work and a lot of DE I workers, it's this sense of fatigue that, you know, am I crazy? Am I making a difference? Because oftentimes when you're hired as AD E I professional. Well, it's very safe to assume something is broken. You know, they didn't bring you there because everything is just working so well. And so they bring you into the space because something is broken. Now you have to fix it. And um a really good man. Uh If you haven't talked to him, please do Lawrence Alexander. Uh He's ad I specialist. He is just, he teaches me everything that I know. And so Lawrence always says, you know, it's that classic question. Rock. What are you gonna put on the table? And then what are you gonna take off of the table? You know, within most DE I spaces when they bring you in? He says as a practitioner, the first thing he says is what are you willing to put onto the table for me to work with, but most importantly, since it's broken, what are you gonna take off the table to allow me to fix it? And I don't think that every de I professional is given that courtesy. And that's unfortunate and, but, you know, most systems aren't perfect, they're kind of broken by design. And so when you have to come in and fix it, you know, this is a bit nebulous, it's a bit broad. But again, like I tell my young man, just do your best, just do your best and fight for tomorrow. You may never see and just know that you gave it your all and just know that that's the payment, it's not gold, it's not a Mercedes, it's not a watch, it's just something just internal that you feel. And I think a lot of that is lost. You know, earlier, we were talking about DE I and higher red and, and, and um I was gonna make a point that I think a lot of de I work is very transactional, you know, get them in, in the front door, we gave you your shot. Be thankful. I think more de I work should be transformative. Where were we at this point in time last year? What are the KPIS for this semester? What new programs have we implemented? You know, I think if you can work towards a transformative type of, again, that ecosystem of care um like my dear friend Mr Alexander says, you know, were you willing to put on or take off of the table? I just think it works. So you mentioned culture and culture sometimes culture is the thing that needs to change the most. But because culture is the product of attitudes and behaviors and rhythms and like just habits, it's the last thing to change. And so and, and I think that to your point of it being by design, I think that is somewhat by design. So in your experience where you have seen culture change kind of as the outcome. Where did you start? In terms of? OK, I like you think Big act small. Where did you start small in terms of attitudes or beliefs or rhythms or habits that you change, that eventually kind of evolved into a different culture? I love that question. You know, I I've always said that within, you know, higher rate, you have two types of professionals. You know, you have people like Tashana and me, we kind of bounce around to different universities. We kind of land, we love everybody, we try to make it better, you know, uh we didn't break it, we just have to fix it. Uh And then um you have the type of leader who I think is equally as valuable. They've been at that one institution and they stuck it out. They've seen leaders come and go, they might have seen three or four presidents. Yeah, but you, but you have such an entrenched understanding of the system that it's invaluable, you know, was pointing herself out. I suppose it is a podcast 23 years since I was 19. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny, my two of my direct reports, they've been with the university their entire career, they graduated, they've been there north of 20 years. I'm the new guy. You know, I kind of land and try to make sense of it, The relationship and the chemistry and the energy that, that I have if I can shout them out. Holly and Colleen, uh I think is really rich, I think um they know the institution, they know it well, they've seen leadership come and go to, to your question. I think in, in my role you have to work to build people up again. You know, Tasha and I, we kind of land and make sense of it. And I think for me, I'm, I'm, I'm speaking for us, I'll speak for me, I think for me you really understand and when you see someone who's been looked over, who's been looked through, who hasn't been listened to a gal or a guy who showed up every single day and gave it. They all, but they had a know it all of a vice president a know it all of a director. God a know it all of a president and whatever they said was law. And so because of their stance, their family, their commitments they decided, just let me be quiet for a little bit. Work hard. Keep my head down, make sense of it. This too shall pass. And hopefully we'll get a gal or, or a guy that comes in who breathes a little bit lighter who's a little easier. I think I've been at five different universities. I've had some really inspirational people that can call me at two o'clock in the morning and I would drop everything and run to them. I've worked for people. It is strictly a 9 to 5 and the way they talk to people, the way they treat people the way they just dole out. Um, you know, information, it, it doesn't inspire trust, it doesn't inspire confidence, it doesn't inspire anything. And so I think a lot of my strength as a leader and again, I've perfected over five campuses and I've gotten it wrong at times. I like to think overwhelmingly, I've gotten it right. I think to build people up to listen to them. Um This being my fifth university, I lovingly joke. I'm very cool that, you know, God willing, I'm here for a long time, but given everything that we talked about, who knows what the next turn of the page might bring. Um You know, I have a 14 year old kid now, I would like a little more stability for her. Um But I think in my job, if I could land and listen, if I could land and build up if I could land and identify the person who survived turnover, who survived leadership, who survived disruption and chaos and still showed up and gave it their all who, who, who just gave it their best. Um I think that's how you can kind of work and help create certain change on that level. I think one of the trickiest things as a leader, you know, you're very much played the hand that you're dealt. You know, there is no big pot of money or gold. You know, you can't wish people away. You just can't, you know, throw cash on the table and flip a light switch. I think, you know, going back to the top of this conversation, um the strategy and strategic enrollment management, I think the strategy component is so all encompassing the strategy of understanding people, the strategy of understanding difference, the strategy of knowing what it's like when deposits are down mid cycle and you have to pivot and get the deposits back up. Hopefully before June or July. The strategy of sitting down with the lady who vacuums the floor and empties her trash and simply saying, how's your day? And um you learn that, you know, she has a real life and, and real uh situations that you tune in and care for. It's learning that within my team, we hired someone whose husband coached one of my counselors in high school. I think the strategy is a strategy of care, a strategy of nurturing a strategy of calm, a strategy of non ego. And just knowing that do the best that you can fore long that you have and that nothing will last forever and that you just have to be your best in the moment. And ro I really appreciate you saying all of that. Um I actually sat in one of the acro collective gatherings that you were facilitating and the topic was walking the talk, effective strategies for advance in diversity and inclusion in higher education. And when that call ended, I came back and I told both Porsha and Ingrid, especially like we need to talk the rock, like you have so much wealth of information. And again, that collective gathering and I even have the date. It was June 23rd, 2022 at 3 p.m. Like I just learned so much like you said, naming a truth, naming your truth, like it was just so much valuable information during that call. Um And you really touched on a lot of it again today. So I really just want to say thank you. I really thank you. Oh And you also said something else. So you said diversity is a verb, not a noun. It is, it is diversity is a verb. You got to run with it, you gotta live with it, it evolves, it grows, you know, I think it's, it's so multifaceted, you know, you have geographic diversity, you have ethnic diversity, you have socio-economic diversity, you have cultural diversity, you have niche diversity, you have bio and gender and gender identity diversity. Um I think it really is just a verb. It's always moving, you know, from one corner of the room to the next. And I think that's a good, I think it's a good thing. I think the whole, you know, for humans and all of us are working higher education and, and I always tell people, I have friends who are doctors and lawyers and judges and, and, and car salesmen and, and mechanics and, you know, they always say, well, you know, college and the cost and the price and what is it, what is it all about? You know, and I always say, you know, I think the hope of college is, you know, the hope is to make us better thinkers, to make us more dispassionate thinkers. I said this world will continue to evolve. You know, we are dealing with technologies and conversations and social realities that weren't even in existence 1520 years ago. You know, um we are in a generation now until we've had what an entire generation of young people grew up with active shooter drills. I've never done that. You know, we have an entire generation of young people who grew up better understanding gender diversity and gender identity, diversity. I never had to deal with that, you know, um even within uh race and ethnicity you know, we're identifying and acknowledging multi racial Children in ways that we've never done before as a kid. I never saw that. And so I think that the hope of a college degree and education is really to make you a better thinker, a more dispassionate thinker, maybe a deeper thinker. Um I think within this current climate, we're so quick to react, we're so quick to be first. You know, I think Michelle Obama say it said it best not every fu is a tweet. And so a lot of the young men, you know, that I work with, I really try to instill and teach them the importance and the ability to pause. And when I say pause, it's not a knock, it's not a loss. You're not a punk, you're not taking a hit. You are demonstrating strength in the moment by simply showing your resolve and letting them know that you'll come back and figure it out later. And so in that respect, I do think diversity is a verb. I think for most first generation students, there is so much in the broader world to figure out, you know, again, I just turned 49 a week ago and there's so much that I know now that I wish I would have known at 20 you know, and, and yeah, and I'm not talking like, you know, dragons and unicorns, but I'm talking just brass tax stuff, you know, and, and, and, you know, I think if we can continue to create that ecosystem of care that, you know, in those nurture streams. Um I mean, and, and I, I really talk for all students, you know, II I say first generation, um that's what I was overwhelmingly. First generation are students of color. But when I talk about, you know, kids, I'm not talking about my kid. Uh she, she's fine. And so again, there's nuance to this, you know, but um my hope is that, you know, every kid could maybe have a shot that my kid had that I didn't have and just make this world a better place. So I think that's the most important piece of college or university. You're not gonna, it's not quid pro quo, it's not transactional, it is transformative, you know, and sometimes that's a bit hard to put your hand on, but you just know that you're doing it. Well, I thank you, I thank you so much for being on here and uh we appreciate you and I want you to know you don't look a day over 25 uh lots of water and healthy stress. Yeah, it's board week. I'm eating with the board. So, you know, I've already lost a few pounds. Yeah. Well, we appreciate you and uh we hope to have you back on our, please call me. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Herd, a podcast sponsored by Afro. We'd love to hear from you. Share your episode ideas or feedback for us at HD at afro.org episodes are produced by Mayo Inna. Thanks Mayola. We'll see you next time.