Feelings are Data: Building Healthy Culture with Shamis Pitts

Portia and Ingrid spoke with Shamis Pitts, Founder and CEO of Pitts Leadership Consulting or PLC. PLC is a human capital consulting company specializing in organizational health and employee wellbeing. Shamis shared her experiences working with people and systems to make culture work by focusing on ways of working; the importance of self-awareness; and the difference between self-care and self-compassion. Feelings are data, and its important to name them if you want to build a healthy and equitable workplace.

This is actually the second time we talked to Shamis and for that first conversation, Tashana was available to join us. For a variety of reasons, we needed to re-record the episode during a time when Tashana was taking a well-deserved vacation. She was greatly missed, and will be back next month to dig deep on another topic.

Transcript

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If you're at a place where you can't identify one person, I would have a coaching conversation with yourself because it may be that you haven't given somebody the opportunity to support you. Oh, hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of HD on today's episode, Porsha and I talked with Shamus. Pitts. Shamus is the founder and CEO of Pitts Leadership consulting or PLCPLC is a human capital consulting company specializing in organizational health and employee well being. We have talked a lot in previous episodes about the impact culture have on individuals and their experiences of inclusion, belonging and even feelings of safety. So Shamis joined us to talk about her experiences working with people and systems to make culture work for everyone. We discussed how ways of working habits and norms can have an impact on the workplace, the importance of self awareness and the difference between mean self care and self compassion. This is actually the second time we talked to Shamas and for that first conversation, Tashana was available to join us for a variety of reasons we needed to rerecord this episode. And unfortunately for us, but fortunately for Tashana, she was on vacation. So we really missed her and we tried to wear her hat the best we could and you'll hear her join us next month to dig deep on another topic, but we miss your girl and she's not in this one. All right, without further ado, let's get started. Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of her. I am Ingrid Nuttall and I am Porsha Lamar and joining us today is the incredibly powerful, wonderful, lovely Shamus Pitts. Shamus,-- welcome to the pod.-- Welcome. Thank you for having a fake applause. Thank you so much for having me. I'm just grateful to be in community with you all today. Fabulous people that you are and Shammi, you are not new to me and we're going to get a little bit into that on the pod, but uh you are new probably to many of our listeners. So can you do us a favor and share a little bit about yourself, your identity, your professional journey. Um What do you want us to know about you? Thanks, Ingrid, uh Shamus Pitts, Shamus Rhymes with promise or Thomas. I love to say that it took me many years for some reason to get to that point. And then my husband's name is, is Tom. So that's like my little funny thing. Um I am based here in New York City. I'm the founder and CEO of Pitts Leadership Consulting PLC has been in business um about 5.5 years now. We are a human capital consulting firm that specializes in organizational health and employee well being. Our mission is to help organizations enhance the work environment to drive retention, which at the end of the day, right, you want to amplify the profitability and impact of your organization, which requires engaged employees who are productive and who perform, right? And honestly thrive in the in, in the work. So we really sit at the intersection of organizational development, professional development and building inclusive culture. About 60% of our business is transformational change initiatives, right? Employees are in one place. We want to shift them to another. What does that look like? So that might be a mix of advising, consulting, training, facilitation, maybe some coaching. About 30% of the business are pure play engagements around training facilitation or coaching. And then the balance is ad hoc workshops or I'm asked to keynote conferences. So this is really honestly my purpose work, I identify as a black woman, heterosexual. Um I am a, I'm not first gen my mother was a low income black woman from the DMV, from, from Washington DC. And she met my father, um an Ethiopian Somali immigrant at college. So I like to say that, right? I wouldn't be here if not for higher ed. Uh My father, my late father for many years, his entire, almost his entire career taught at an H BC U. So I like to say that higher ed put food on my table and they were passionate about education. So I've had the privilege of going to some of the best educational institutions in the country in the world. And so for me, um right, how we got connected was that I was able to engage with your current employer to do some transformational change work. Um And it really working with higher ed is, is is serving to me, it really helps amplify my purpose work. Um Because it is the, it opens pathways for so many people. Um And really is a great unifier to bring people together to, to, to be in this, in these wonderful community building spaces in order to figure out who they are, what they want to create in the world and be able to go out um and do that and set themselves up for success to, to be out in the world. So I'll, I'll pause there and yeah, so we met because I started, so I started at Northeastern University um working fully remote from Minnesota, which is relevant to, to some of the stuff. And I came in and heard that Rebecca, my boss had engaged you and your organization in some transformational work because I was not located in the same state as most of my employees. And there had been a large shift, a large reorganization in our office. I was so excited that we were gonna, even before I met you that we were going to do this work because it signaled to me something about the culture I was coming into like, just the fact that there was that investment after this shift after this reorg it said something and I was like, oh that's a, that says something to me about who I'm joining and who I'm going to be with. And we've talked a lot on this podcast about organizational culture, um its impact on not just work performance, right? But inclusion, belonging and ultimately whether or not someone stays and thrive. So that signal to me was like, oh, this is the place I'm going to be able to stay and thrive because it meant something. So we want to unpack this. But I think maybe it would be good to start with how you define workplace culture. What does that mean? That's a great question. And I think it's so foundational to us as humans, right? Because a culture I think at its base foundation is an organization's way of being. It may be implicit or explicit, but it's just how, what the flavor is of the organization, how people move, how people relate, how work gets done. Um There may be very clear behaviors that are written or unwritten standards that are known or unknown, but they're all operating, right? It's, it's how you are, it's not just the, it's not really the what you're doing as much as the how, right? And as people are coming in and out of the organization that there have been in the past a a conversation around organizational fit. But over time, that is really shifted to be inclusive of a organizational ads, right? Because every person is unique and they're adding to the flavor of an organization, right? So there's the, is there sufficient alignment and values within the org when you're uh figuring out if this person is the right person to join, but also acknowledgement of that person's difference that are going to add to the fabric and the flavor knowing that within an organization, how you do things uh may shift over time depending on what you, what your ultimate outcome is, right? And that's how you, when you know, hiring is, is definitely a big part of where you are now. What the vision is for. You want the organization to go being intentional about the folks that you add to that flavor. I can only um imagine. But uh I guess I wanna ask once a company comes to you seeking your assistance is everybody on board. No. Yeah. And I'm like, everybody is a big word. So everybody, you're never gonna have 100% of everybody in for anything. Yeah. Is there a prep they have to do before you officially like, OK, let's start this. Yeah. Well, ideally like people are not gonna move unless they understand why it's important for them personally and how it's going to help them get their work. Done right, easier, faster that align with the outcomes of the team and, or right, and more broadly the organization, but it's natural for people to resist things because that is really grounded in the uncertainty of, I don't know what's gonna come, what's gonna come next? What is this looks like? How is it going to impact my day to day? So before anything really gets started, the person, the executive team that engages me really needs to lay out the the what's the motivation behind the engagement and where they want to get to? Right? And then I always have my team make themselves available to openly and transparently answer questions because if we're collaborating in the work, right? And the work is always co created with the executive sponsor, I'm not gonna design an engagement that is completely um devoid of any understanding of a current culture, right? And the possible um friction points because we need to understand the points of friction because at the end of the day, we want to make it easier for people, right? And so I think making sure that the folks that are collaborating on the work or the organizations that are collaborating on the work are open. So I'm a fan of data collection because if you don't know where you're starting from, it's gonna be hard to know where to go. However, I always tell folks don't ask the questions if you're not going to do something that's on you. I don't, I don't encourage it. I actively dissuade folks. Uh you know, I don't want to be a part of that work because from a values perspective, you're going to do more harm. That is not of integrity. If you ask folks questions about what their desired future stayed in and what their pain points are and what they write and don't address those things and at least say, OK, we can start with some of these things and these other things they might take longer or we may have, we there has to be a prioritization, right? Focus on the big rocks there, maybe, you know, but you won't know where to start unless you ask the question. But you must be committed to taking action and being transparent about what you're gonna do or not be able to do and under and share those the constraints that you're up against, right? But I do believe in having um making those data driven decisions about how to prioritize, right? Um But also then creating spaces, a lot of what we do is creating spaces to feel the friction points like we're neutral, right? Folks, I mean, folks come at me all the time, but I don't take it personally because I know I'm here to support and facilitate change. So there often needs to be an outlet when folks have not felt seen or heard, right? The change that you're bringing may come on top of folks feeling unseen, not heard, wronged, harmed for a while. So some of what I'm able to do is discern, ok, it's, these things are going to be blockers to people moving forward. They actually need to heal from this other thing. They're holding you accountable, right? They're saying you own that harm, that they, that they experienced, even though that may have nothing to do with you. It's like relationship baggage, right? 1 to 1, it's the same thing that happens within an organization. And so recognizing, OK, is this, can this truly be a learning space for people or do we need a healing space? And then, right, if I'm serving or, you know, PLC is serving as that neutral space, we can then tease out some of those patterns and then escalate them back to say, OK, this is what's afoot. How do we want to approach that? Here's some ideas but honestly, right, exec team leadership, you have to own the course of action, we can collaborate and talk through what that could look like, right? But because it's a both end because at the end of the day we move on and we're not in the business of just dumping solutions on people and not really walking alongside because I think that to me is the integrity of the work, right? I can't own it, but I'm here to support you, right? Uh on that journey. So one of the things that can affect the flavor of an organization is a term that you taught me, which is ways of working, which is so like, I, I, I honest saying you came up with it, Thomas, but I was like, oh, it's like ways of being ways of working ways of showing up how do you define ways of working and why do they matter? What are some examples? So I think ways of working most simply stated are the various norms that exist within teams with, within people, within a team or people across teams. It can be at the individual level, it can be at the team level, it can be how your team engages with a team in a completely separate part of the organization. So some of it is like, it's all explicit though because there gets to be alignment around like how are we gonna move together? How are we gonna be in this dance of working? What works for what between teams may look very different, right? You may have a completely different set of ways of working with one office within the university and another, right? Because there's different outcomes that you need to drive, there's different personalities, there's different processes, right? There's so there's a lot of nuance to that, but it's being explicit to say this is how we're gonna, this is how we're gonna operate. So for example, um I am so working with folks on a team who are trying to figure out how to reduce friction to individuals. Right. I'm like, well, how do you communicate? What's the norm? One person's texting another person at all hours, one, you know, somebody gets in their feelings. Like, why are you texting me some? Sometimes it's like we need to talk over email but then email interpretation can go sideways in two seconds. Like when do we get on the phone to have a conversation? Like, generally when I'm working on my team, it's like if we have to go back and forth via chat, email or in our project management tool, more than 22 times, maybe three, like uh uh let's let's do a quick sync. It can be five, sometimes it's just five, a five minute conversation can make life a whole lot easier, but it's already a norm with the team. Let's this, we're not going to go back and forth because it's just inefficient. It can lead to unnecessary feelings of frustration. Let's just right. Close it up. It doesn't need to be a 30 minute meeting, right? Or maybe it does, right? Because depending on the context. So it's just again, being explicit and what works for me and Porsha and how we are collaborating may look completely different than what works for you, right? But it's it's explicit. So how do you make something? OK. I want to transform ways of working. I want to create norms that are more inclusive. I need to reduce friction. I even reduce like toxicity, like how do you, how does someone start? So what I typically do is ask folks to write down what's working in terms of how they're relating with other people, right? And it may be team wide things that are happening and may be interpersonal things, but like what's working, right? If it, because sometimes there may be some interpersonal things that are kind of one offs, then overall team. So, right, if people can identify what's working on a team level and then what's not working and what does that look like in practice? Right. For both because then it's because it's easy to be overly general, right? In past conversations, I've said to you all good, great, good, great, well, fine, OK. Are not feelings, they're too vague. I don't know what to do with this. So from a team norm perspective, it's like, OK, well, what's working? We have agendas that and the agendas are shared two days in advance. So I know how to prepare, right? Or um I oftentimes don't feel like I have enough time to formulate a response in a team meeting. So it would be helpful if this thing happened if XYZ, right? But it's like getting more clear because you want, we say we want things to happen in conversations, but we're not actually creating the mechanisms for those things to happen, right? I know I can take up a lot of space or you've been in rooms where people in meetings just take up the entire time. Don't even if it's a 30 minute meeting, they spend 15 of those meetings explaining their point and the person leading the meeting doesn't say we need to see some additional time to other folks. Thank you. And we need to write. Is there somebody actively facilitating the meetings who's actually owning the, the impact of the meeting? There's so many things, but it comes down to when the people on the team come together, what's actually happening and what could make it happen to make things easier for people smoother. But it just comes down to basic reflection. I know that took a long story, not short as I like to say, it's being reflective and, and that reflection goes like you said, both ways like I think in those, in those um just out the gate hearing what you do and you come into these companies and you, you know, you're looking at process trying to better the relation, the culture and immediate finger pointing happens, you know, but you forget that whatever they say, you 0.1 finger, it's three point back at you where you know, when you said what you were talking about in meetings and everything like that, like in my case, sometimes, you know, I have my, my strong muscle is being in the back of the meeting, being quiet listening, half of that is listening, but half of that is not me me also being scared to say or beer. So I have to look at me as well and go like, ok, somebody is talking and they're doing all this stuff. But why, why am I not? Like, why can't I, why, where am I in the position of why I feel like I can't speak up as well or ask a question or get more clarification on something. Yeah, it's at both ends, right? Because we own the outcome and the leader gets to own, right. I can, you can only do what you feel comfortable with. And if there's something that you're not comfortable with, ideally, the leader would acknowledge the fact or be aware of the fact that you are not speaking up, right? And be curious about what may be a blocker for you, right? Because we get to support people because at the end of the day, we're all, we have the same goal and leadership has based on their power and to, you know, the power and privilege of sitting in that seat, they are, they have a higher level of respon or ownership of those outcomes. So they ideally will be curious and reach out and, and seek those, those that information from you, right? And either you choose to respond or not, however, creating mechanisms to intentionally bring you in and tell you that that's what they're going to do means that there's no surprises. So if you are a um if you if you are more introverted or you need additional process time or you don't feel confident based on back past experiences in work environments where people didn't seem to care what you had to say or intentionally invite you in, right? Those things can be corrected by saying, OK, this is how we're going to run things and it can be an experiment and then folks can be asked for feedback, right? But when people are given the opportunity, I know I've spent a lot of times talking about meetings, but we know so much of what we do is about when we come together to be in a meeting space. How are we going to get work done? How are we gonna synthesize new ideas? How are we gonna celebrate wins. How are we gonna build on ideas to get to maybe an idea that we hadn't gotten to yet? So, um when I said long story not short earlier, that is my brain's way of saying Shamis, you may be taking up too much space in your sharing. And that's my call out to say I'm going to take a step back and intentionally create space to hear from other people, right? Because I was conscious of the fact that I was talking for a long time and I was right, I have the benefit of being able to look at you and say, hm, I wanna, I wanna invite her into the conversation, right? Because oftentimes now so much of what's happening is that we can't, right. We miss some non verbal. Now, that's a big thing because people are choosing to stay off video, which we know right in this world now can be very draining. But there's another layer of communication that's missing. You could be saying something that if you could see somebody on video, you'd have a whole lot more data than what you're currently getting. And somebody could be like this is, you know, eye rolling, like checked out just, just the one word somebody said could have just completely thrown them off and they ain't listening no more. You have no way of knowing that, right? I think uh I don't know how I feel like I hate saying this but shout out to my boss. Um I think he's amazing and a lot of those things that you're saying took for me to get my and I'm still learning, I'm still re re uh re adjusting re acclimating, read whatever you want to put or like getting creating a new mode of me because there's so much baggage that I have carried. Like you said, the workplace is relationships as well. So there's so much baggage with me that I am carrying over here, whether it be something I put on myself or you know, the environment, the culture put on me that I am trying to unpack at the same time receiving this, this ultimately blessing that I have of a, of a leader who is, is willing to help, willing to understand my flaws, willing to push me forward to the next level. And it's, it's a lot, it is a lot to unpackage. But it, it, it, it's helped tremendously and to see someone who is just like, no, I, I'm asking a question because I want you to ask the question too and it's just like, wait, what you, I, it's OK to ask the question here. Oh OK. You know, and it, and it's in it, which is a totally different world from the registrar's office. And this is not trying to poo poo on the registrar's office. It's just um registrar's office to me. And my experience is, is a, a process. It's a process that has worked and we continue the process and sometimes the idea of rethinking that process is not fully accepted sometimes. And I'm not seeking from my institution. I'm just saying overall, I've been in a lot of institutions and whereas it, they are on a mission to break down the process and how can we make the process better? And in order to do that, you have to ask all these questions and that's just not a world that I came from. You know, so this is, this is helping me talk to you. Thank you so much for sharing that Porsha. I wanna build on a quick ad to something that you said my boss is fabulous. Because there's an understanding of your, when you need help and support what your flaws are. However, what I didn't hear was you acknowledging your strengths? Yep. And you never will because it's terrible. I don't ever wanna do that. Right. So much of what PLC talks about in our work is the value and importance of strength based leadership. We, our brain has a negativity bias. We spend so much time trying to improve the things that we think are, are we believe are our weaknesses. While strengths are dynamic, if we're clear or have more clarity around the things that make us great, we have the opportunity to do to flex those things with more frequency.-- So I just wanted to take the opportunity to acknowledge and-- I appreciate that. And that's what further makes my boss special because he asked like within the first six months, he was like, I need you to come up with a five year plan. What's your five year goal? And I was like, what in the world who I can't think about the next day, let alone five days, five years ahead. And or did I say five day, but five year goal? That's what he said. And so, you know, and again, just like you said, Shama, I was in there and I was like, I was listing all kind of things that I needed to do better, which were all my weaknesses. Every last one of them, I was like, oh, I need to do this. I need to learn how to code. I need to learn this. I need to do better in Aws all of these things, right? And he busted through all of that and was like, here's what I want you to work on. He was like, you're a great storyteller. He was like, you may not know. He was like, you talk well, he was like, I just need you to improve on that. He was like, that's what's missing. We need someone who's a storyteller who can get the business bought into what we're selling. And I was just like, like, huh what? But hearing that made me go and this is uh this is childhood trauma but it made me go into realizing what was dummy down to me when I was younger. I was the kid that talked a lot. I was the kid that may have been disrupted, may or may not have been disrupted even in a classroom. But that was never looked at as a character trait that was positive. So for him to say I need you to use that gift of gab was mind blowing to me because I never thought that was a great thing. Like I just thought, oh, don't, don't ever talk, you know, don't say anything. Just listen, even if you don't understand it, just listen, just shake your head. And he was just like, no, that's, that's what you work on and I was just like, oh, I'm amazing at running my mouth, say less, right? And that shows up and how you were based on what you shared earlier about talking in meetings, right? And the team is missing out on the valuable insights, questions that you could bring to get to a better result. Right? We, we often talk about, there's so much talk about, oh, diversity of thought is important and it's gotten so hackneyed over time, but it's a thing, right? I mean, it's part of like people don't like to, you know, the business case for why diversity in spaces is important. Um It's often cited but, right, because in practice, it truly matters like there's so many outcomes that haven't even been realized in organizations because folks haven't spoke up, spoken up, folks with different experiences who might have that, that idea that nugget that could contribute to just breakthrough innovation, right? And across universities, regardless of the department that you're operating in innovation is key, right? The the the in the landscape is continuing to evolve and our ability as individuals and as organizations to adapt to the changing environment is going to impact whether or not we continue to exist, right? I mean, there's so much shifts in which or universities still exist, which colleges still exist, right? We it's, there's so many underlying factors in that, but I think a big part of it is, right? Do you have the right people in the room to help you think through these challenges to innovate and adapt and are you creating, are you supporting an environment and co creating an environment where those strings? So it's all well and good to get the people, right? That's the diversity part, you get the people there. But then if that environment can't be co created together to leverage the diversity of thought and to bring it out in a way where everyone feels safe and everyone and and there can be healthy conflict which I know with some of the stuff we talked about in our workshops with you. If you can't do that next step, it's it's not going to happen. And I think that's the, when Porsha was talking about the support from her supervisor and I have given shout outs to mine on this podcast. The reason that matters so much, one of the reasons right is because of the the role of power dynamics in organizations and control. It is I have had conversations with people where I have been vulnerable and there is a power dynamic between us where I have more organizational power. And I have said this co like, this costs me nothing, it costs me nothing to be vulnerable because the risk to me because of the power dynamic is so much less than it is for the risk of someone with less organizational power to be vulnerable. And I, so I think it is a big ask it when you say getting the executives together is in getting them to commit as a big deal. It's because they, they hold a lot of the marbles. And so I guess I'm, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on if power dynamics are at play and someone like Porsche's supervisor or mine can have a big impact on the way we feel. Right. What about in every individual who might feel like organizationally? They don't have a lot of power. What can they do in order to be courageous and be vulnerable that comes at risk in order to gain power and in order to shift an organizational culture, that is better for not just them but for everyone that's meaty. You're welcome. Yeah. So I think fundamentally the most important thing is recognizing that you're not alone and finding someone else that you trust to have a conversation with. It may be a peer. But even to say, right, this is a challenge for me and I don't have the courage to, I need help doing XYZ, right? Finding somebody that you can trust regardless of their level of positional authority where you can start to tea out and acknowledge some of what you need some of those feelings and there can be power in then help it like collaborating, recognizing you're not on an island to think about what's an appropriate next step. And I think it starts, I think that's where it starts because if if somebody suffers in silence you, it's hard to move anything. And I'm not talking about trying to, I just wanna be clear because, right, as much as I'm a proponent of therapy, I just want people often say, well, I don't have time to talk to people about their feelings, right? People feelings are data, understanding how somebody feels about something is doesn't mean that you, it's your, you own fixing their problem because you can't truly fix anybody else's trauma, right? You can't fix, you can't change how they feel. You can provide the context to be open and have a conversation which like, right, I'm talking about operating from a place of compassion to be the space for somebody to share what their challenge is and to help them think through how they might want to address that challenge. If that thing doesn't exist, it's going to be very challenging to help somebody navigate those pathways to fully express where they're at what they need within an organization. I'll, I'll pause there. I, and, and sadly, but not sadly because we support our sister Tashana. She's on her vacation right now and yay vacation. But to put her um her, her lenses on and I, I know that she would ask this, what do you do when you can't find that in your culture, in your environment and your work area? What if you can't link up with at least one person? What then? Mm. That's a great question. So if you're at a place where you can't identify one person, I would have a coaching conversation with yourself because it may be that you haven't given somebody the opportunity to support you. 000. Oh. Right. There's a level of, am I creating the conditions for somebody to even understand that I'm open to their support. Are you actively closing off the possibility to build a relationship with another person? Right. Yes, you did, ma'am. I mean, no one's ever answered that question that way because we asked this, Tashana in particular,-- asked this question a lot and-- no one and I get that like because generally the response is always, oh well, then leave. But her, her struggle is what if I can't leave? You know, why, what if that's not an option for me? So that is a good one, right? I've been the person that has left, that's been me. But as I became more seasoned in my career and did some additional work to understand my own patterns. I was always and again, I needed to go to therapy to figure this out. Right. So again, there's distinctions that are, that are at play. I my life shifted once I realized that I in like I was, I guess not intentionally, I didn't even realize I was doing it because it was part of my core being, I consistently put other people's needs before my own. And until I stepped back to really reflect on what I was doing it. What was the motivation behind that? How did I get there? Because I was on this hamster wheel. I realized, oh, I'm not operating from a place of self compassion. I am, I thought I was an open book with people but realized that my deepest challenges, I wasn't sharing the things that people needed to hear. I was not saying and the story that I told myself is that they're not willing to help me mind you. I am not discounting the ISMs that I was experiencing right at times, the racism, the ageism, the sexism, all the stuff, all the shy as I like to say, that doesn't mean those things weren't there. But I was not clear enough in my own being about my needs. What was holding me back to be able to, to, to truly share in a way that under other people understood what I needed and how they could help me. And I've had conversations of reconciliation with some of my past managers who have said, I'm sorry, I didn't show up for you when you were asking for help. And I said, well, I appreciate that. And right as I reflected it was, and I don't know if I was truly articulating how much I was struggling because I was working those 80 100 hour weeks, not sleeping because I was trying to do right by the organization and the people in it and our clients and I forgot about me, right? So it's like I just, there was so much about me like I'm able to do this work and hire because higher, higher it can be a little dicey. Y'all can be tough over there, right? But I don't embody any of that suffering or frustration or resistance because I know I am strong in me and I am willing to stand beside you in the walk and not make it about me, right? But it took, it took, it took some time to realize I wasn't being truly vulnerable with the people that could have helped me the way I needed to be helped. Ma'am. For those of you all that know about the church dynamic. It is now time to pass the place or collection. You my man preach, you preach a sermon with that statement that I never thought of. That was the again if we had another button with sounds mind blowing, that was mind blowing. Mm And you said something that um I'd wanted to talk to talk to you about. You use the term self compassion because as we were preparing for this interview, like we were just having a conversation and you introduced the nuance of the term self compassion versus self care. And I was, I wanted you to talk about maybe that difference, that distinction and why that matters. And how like how do you practice self compassion? How does one get started practicing self compassion. Thank you for that. Yeah, I think I touched on, on it in my, when I was up on the pulpit just now, however, I will clarify um or just be, you know, just be more explicit, the ad the the clarity around the needs to fully self actualize the clarity around. How do I wanna be in this world? What do I need to be myself? What do I need to be great? How do I advocate for myself and how I show up to my life every day, right? It's broader than the world of work, right? Cause work is a part of our life and are we conscious of all of the needs in order to go out there and win every day and to be able to advocate for those things? So the elements of self care, there are elements of self care that are involved in that right? To the the ways that you wanna nourish yourself, right? Your different layers of your well being, right? Am I gonna go take, am I gonna exercise today? Am I gonna go take a walk to um get the fresh air that I need to calm my nervous system so I can show up and deal with all the meetings of the afternoon or? Right? Um Those things are a component of being self compassionate, but it's the awareness of and taking action upon those things that I'm really putting into the self compassion part. Right. Because we're able to evaluate and assess our needs. Right. That, that's the, that's the core of it. So, let's say so, I'm, I'm listening to this podcast. I'm, I'm at an organization I'm going about, I'm going about my job. I'm doing my thing. It's fine. It's, it's fine. It's good. It's fine. Yeah, I'm listening to this and I'm wondering, I'm all right. Yeah, I'm hanging in-- there.-- I don't believe any of that stuff. And that's, I'm listening and, and that's where I'm at. Mhm What is one thing where is a place to start for me in getting to a next step where I can say I feel and then fill in the feeling world. I feel bored. I feel lost. I feel overwhelmed. I feel. How do I get from the listening to this conversation as a passenger and how do I get in the driver's seat? Ok. Yeah. Fair question. So the first thing is to take a pause and create some intent, intentional space to reflect. Most times we're in the busyness of our lives where we don't intentionally slow down, take a pause and actually reflect. And this is where the power of self coaching comes in, which is simply right asking yourself, let me take a pause. Coaching is about recognizing how you wanna move forward, right? You, you typically there's a, this is where I'm starting. This is the vision for my future and I need to create the road map, but it's hard to figure out the vision for your future and to figure out your action plan until you recognize where you are today. So even simply pausing and I'm a fan of the journal, putting thoughts onto paper. So you can be an observer of the thought and start with whatever comes out, right? If you need prompts, it can be what's working, what's not working, right? Those prompts. I'm right. I think I shared them earlier. But even just those answering those two questions or just starting to ponder the answer is helpful. I always ask when I meet with folks, how do you feel? So I know how to meet them where they are. Like I said, good, great. Well, fine. OK. Are not feelings worth. I'm all right. Doesn't tell me anything. Put your feeling word down and if you write down good, fine answer the question, what does that mean to you? Cause that ain't saying nothing there. It's not, there's no evidence, there's no, it's not data. It's like you can't do anything with it. And usually when I press people and I say, well, what does that mean to you? I get some additional context and then some additional thoughts come out and then I let it marinate, I let it sit and then I asked the question then so based on what you just shared with me, what's a feeling word that captures that just need one word because once you ground yourself in a feeling, word, you can then decide does that feeling work for you or not? And if it doesn't, what feel, how do you wanna feel? Because then if you can anchor where you are now and how you wanna feel, right? This, I mean the arc of that can be, this is how I feel. Now. I want to feel like this at the end of my next meeting at the end of the day, right? At the end of the week, right? You get to choose what the time span is and then it's like, well, what would I need, what would need to happen for me in order to shift how I feel about that thing? Is it a conversation with? So and so is it giving myself time to actually eat lunch because I can't think straight and it's three o'clock and I've been in back to back meetings and my brain is no longer functioning, right? So, or is it a realization that I'm exhausted and I can't even show up to do this other thing in my life because I just haven't been sleeping, right? I mean, so many things come out when I have conversations with folks, simple conversations, the number of people that I meet, even in initial calls that release tears, it's some, I don't know why it continues to baffle me because I'm always like, huh? But then at the same point in time. I'm like, I, people aren't being given space to just be and reflect on how they're feeling where they're at. Everybody's carrying so much. But again, unless you anchor on where you are, where you wanna go, whatever time span that is and then what would, how do you want to feel and what actions? It, it can be one simple thing. We don't have to boil the ocean. It can be that simple, but it requires a pause. If you're in back to back meetings that ain't happening. I'm just saying it's not. Yes, it is helpful. I am. I'm a work journal and have been for years and sometimes I take long breaks and when I hit that spot where I can feel the thoughts colliding against each other in my head. I know it's time and I'm always better off when I don't wait that long. I'm always better off when I do when I make it a practice and even start by saying by reflecting and being like, it's all right. And I write like I like, I feel content. I feel satisfied and I'm putting that intention down the paper. So I'm a big fan of that. Um I wanna Shamus Shamas Pits. We've gone deep, we've gone wide. I want to get silly. I want to get, I want to get you are, I want to have a strength moment. I want to have a beautiful strengths moment with the two of you um, I, I would like for you. Um, and Porsha actually, and I will participate to, to, to talk about your strengths in ways that can bring us into a beautiful, I'm done what you did. So, and that, that and that, but what I'm doing is I'm recognizing my feelings. I don't wanna do this. I hate to do this. I will, but this is just not my thing and I need to get more comfortable but don't like it. So I'll go left. Yeah. Well, so you'll go last. I'm just reminding you we if you're a human and you breathe in, you have feelings that drive everything that you do or choose not to do, they're present. So simply by giving yourself the gift of acknowledging them can impact how you show up, not just for yourself and for,-- for yourself and for everyone-- else. I agree. I agree. OK. OK. Just checking, just checking. So Shamus and I know that you, you leverage um specific instruments through your practice to talk about strengths. But can you share some of your strength? A couple of your strengths with us? I am a narrator. I like to tell stories as a similar to Porsha. I have the gift of Gab. I am an incubator. I like to think about things. I like to connect with other people and collaborate authentically. And um I think I'm one of my strengths is I'm able to, I'm very extremely self aware. So I'm able to call BS on myself in a way that um I, I bring humor into that. And I think another one of, well, one of the strengths that I can overplay is that I am an empath and any strength if overplayed can sap your energy. So. Right. I'm not just an empathetic person. I'm an empath, you know, based on all this stuff that I've learned in conversations with the, you know, experts and whatnot. So I must preserve, I don't operate from that space. I have enough self-awareness to recognize that when I operate from a place of compassion, I can sustain the intensity of this work. But my being an empath shows up a lot in spaces where if a client starts to release tears, depending on what's being shared, I may too be overwhelmed with that emotion and I may release a tear. However, I, I do not stay in that place because my respon what my, my responsibility, my strength is in helping people, organizations move forward, right? So it's not knowing when to flex these things that I'm doing and different again, the awareness of and the emotional regulation to know how to be. So I think those are things that really um help me and PLC as I as I lead, PLC, be great in what we do. And I think what you, that last part of what you said, I think was what was so valuable about being in a workshop space with you is that when you're dealing, you know, we, I think a lot of people listening to this have been in kind of consultancies before and there is a balance of having someone be there with you and feel like they're in it with you, but also be the person who is able to set a boundary. That's my word, not yours to be able to, to reflect and look back and be like, OK, I'm in this with you, but here's a, I also am going to guide you through a framework so that you can have some repeatable processes to train, transform your organization. And I think that calling out these strengths is a good place to have. That's also a thing people can do, I think is taking some stock of their strengths and saying them out loud to each other. I I will go next because Porsha told me she wasn't going to and I want to honor you, Porsha. I think um I think I have a good memory and I think that memory translates into not just like things I read, but it like interactions with people. Like I think I'm an observant person and I can remember interactions with people and kind of like how they show up and um things about them. I like to know things about people and I, they are sticky with me. And so I think that helps me form relationships with people that are sincere. Um They're sincere for me. Um Even if, even if they're kind of like based on something that's transactional. So I think, you know, like we need something from each other, but I, I like to, I like to help people when I know something about them and I, I'm good at remembering things about people. Um I think I am, I think I have developed good organization skills that help keep things moving through a system in ways that are collaborative. And I think that's one of the most fun parts of being working in higher ed and working in a registrar's office, working in enrollment kind of land overall is seeing the opportunity like, you know, there's people and data and processes and students in classes and like all of these things happening and as a systems person, like I love being like, I see the matrix and I feel like I'm really good at taking a step back seeing the matrix, but then being like, OK, we gotta get from first, we're going to do A to B and then we're gonna do ABC and then we're gonna, and then we're gonna go from there. And I think I'm good at kind of activating that. And I will also say to kind of Porsche's comment that is a learned skill for me, it is not a natural skill. It's something I've, I've had to maybe it's an unrealized strength shamus, but it's um it's not something that I've always done. It's taken a heck of a lot of practice and I think that's maybe the thing I'm most proud of is the stuff that I've had to practice, the skills I've had to practice, to get better at them-- that feel like they were unattainable to me.-- Yes. Strengths are, thank you for that. Right. Strength. I'm glad you called attention to that because strengths are dynamic, right? The things that are the things that are your most maybe salient strengths are things that may um have some sort of correlation with your personality. But it's so important to recognizing that you can intentionally choose to flex certain strengths cause it's so contextual that you can really amplify your outcome and reach your goals and support other people and do all the things if you recognize that. Oh I'm great at this thing and I want to build it, but I wanna lean into it, right? It's not just that you're born with this, born with this thing, right? Like we get to learn and grow and have a growth mindset and flex into these things that we know. But right from a place of strength, building, not scarcity language, OK. Just some people are, some people are born with the um with abilities that will lend themselves well to certain kinds of sports. Like that's a, that's something you're born with the best basketball player on my daughter's basketball team when she was playing was maybe 5 ft one and she worked, she just worked at it. Um, I think that is more common. Right. Like that's, that's generally the lot that people have. Porsche. So I guess I will, I'm trying to read re, um, acclimate myself to myself and things that, yeah, things that, uh, I feel like, again, environment created out of me, um, or, you know, like I talked about school, you know, being young in school and knowing that I talked a lot, I'm trying to take those attributes and, and make turn them positive and know that it's a positive thing. So what I'm gonna say has always again, made me feel like, oh, that's terrible. But in, in, in my job, I feel like it's not now. Um And, and the strength that I pull from it is not. So I'm a people pleaser OK, that's, that's what I am. I know when, when you say those two words together, some people are like, oh that's uh that you, you're just always trying to, you know, please everyone and all that stuff and, but what it does, what it allows me to do is see you for who you are. Like, I can, I can dig through all of what you feel like you presented to me and really figure out how you learn how you listen, how I can relate to you, how I can get you to, to have to build a relationship with me um, so those, those are, you know, I was always my best friend. We've been friends since kindergarten till to this day. You know, she's always told me, like, you always made friends with strays. You just brought a stray into our friend group. Like, every time I was like, I was just like, I cool, you know, but, like, really had no other connection with the, the core group of my friends, you know? but that was me. I was always able to make a connection weird as it may be or whatever with someone and build from that. Um It's funny because my sister talks, my sister and I talk and she was just like, I don't, I don't talk to former coworkers like that. I'm like, I don't talk to them like that but it, if I did, it would be a re instant connection quickly. Like there would be no, it would, it would be like we talked every day, but we hadn't seen each other for 10 years. Like, that's how I am and I use that when it comes to, you know, working in the environments that I'm working now and, and figuring out who, who is, who is my person that knows all the knowledge, who is my person that doesn't, who is my person that, you know, is, it's in the back. But I feel like they know way more than what they're saying. That that is, that is me like I and, and I will hate turn to that as a people person, I will go, I know that this person works better if I do this, this, this and that they will receive the information better if I do that and same with anyone else. So I'll say that that's my strength. I love it. What, what I thank you for that. And what I heard was you, as you were talking, you reframed the language of people pleaser into relationship builder or rapport builder or connector, right? And so, and that reframing of things like that is an important part of fully stepping into that strength and owning it in a way that's gonna serve you, right? Language is powerful.-- So, so I just, I just wanted to call-- it and it's funny because when you say it and you, and you, you mean it and you know what you're saying, there's still nerves around it. You know what I mean? Because it's like you have actually caught it out and now you've named it and now you're telling everybody this is your strength and now you gotta live up to this and it's just like, hey, I don't, I don't, I, that's not what I meant. I wanted this to just be, you know, not, maybe that's why I don't say strength a lot because I'm just like, just let me be, just let me do me, but I think calling it out is important. So I can remember what letting me be me is and sometimes I forget what that is. Hm. Well, and that's why I wanted to do just given the way this conversation has unfolded. It's why I wanted to take a moment to do it because I think I sound like I feel massively uncomfortable saying in a recording what I think I'm good at because my first reaction is nobody wants to hear that. Who wants to hear that? And I think that it like that is a problem and a missed opportunity. And if we really feel that way, if we're walking around the world not wanting to hear, people, feel confident in what they can bring into a relationship to your conversation to, to what you said about norm shamus and expectations and everything. Then what are, what, what can we possibly build from? You want me to come in and be like, here's all, here's all my baggage, here's all the things I suck at. Here's how I'm not going to be able to show up for you. Are you willing to work with me? Oh, yeah,-- sign-- me up, sign me up. Right. So I think that it is worth it. I hope that people that are listening can think about the sort of if you heard it and you cringe because you're like, I don't want to listen to these women talk about what they're good at taking a step back from that and being like that's that's, we can, I'm listening to it and I'm being jealous. That's my issue. Like I'm jealous that you're able to create these words, formulate them and, and just talk about yourself in the highest form ever. And I feel like I can't do that. So that's my, that's my lens. OK. What? Mhm. Put pause. Remember Ingrid? And I have done some of this work together through the, the engagement. So she's right and she's had some time to reflect on it. I'm not saying what she shared the thing that showed up and right. But, but it's like, again, in intentionally getting comfortable with exploring these words, what they mean to you and being able to share them is a process. And if you haven't flexed it, like cut yourself some slack, right? If it's a new way of being, it's not like you're right, I'm just trying to help you shift to even thinking about using that as a possibility to, to for your own confidence and empowerment and also then to learn how to, right, to use that as a tool potentially to collaborate with folks around those ways of working things that we talked about, right? So it's, I got, I got 30 days to make it feel comfortable 30 more before someone else sees my n That's all I think it's been 30 more days until I realized like, oh, look at me winning. No, that, I mean, it is, it's a muscle and I, you know, the same way you are in a gym with your body working out and you don't get on there and you just start running miles. No. No, it's uncomfortable and then you get used to it, then someone else notices it and then you're really like, oh, look at me. Yeah, I get it. Mhm. Yeah, because now, like, on my team we talk about these things. Right. We now have like, a bi monthly like let's talk about how our strengths are helping us do the things and where do we maybe need some support? Right. But we've intentionally incorporated and have now a separate meeting, right? As much as we, we have to walk the talk. So it's like we realized that as an org, we needed to put in some dedicated time to revisit this conversation so that we can support each other from a, from a place of more uh from just reaffirming or looking for new opportunities to be confident in our work and figure out also like, what can I get off my plate? I need help, which is why starting with when you um we were talking before and you said starting with what's working?-- That's-- right. It's like starting from a place of plenty. Um and know that even if you're starting from a place of plenty, that doesn't mean that you're ignoring the problems. But if you don't have gas in the tank of some kind to draw from. You're, you cannot go anywhere. That yes, Shami-- magician,-- pets, my friend Thomas. My mm. So this has been wonderful. I just, again, we spend so much time at work to be able to the space that you all created here for this conversation and, and the fact that you're creating this content to get out in the world, to support other people, to help them be, feel seen and heard in their work is, is just so important. So I applaud you all. I'm sorry that Tashana is not here. She's here in spirit and I'm just glad I had the opportunity to connect with her on a previous iteration of our coming together. Um So just thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks Shana. Thanks for listening to another episode of HD. We'd love to hear from you. Please send us an email at HD at acro.org with any feedback you have for us or show ideas. This episode was produced by Doug Macky. Thanks, Doug.