Episode 126: Liz Allan and Chris Chandler - The Corporate Sector’s Role in EV Adoption

Episode 126: Liz Allan and Chris Chandler - The Corporate Sector’s Role in EV Adoption.

Liz Allan speaks to Chris Chandler, Principal Consultant at Lex Autolease. With over 17 years in the fleet and automotive industry, Chris has been at the forefront of the sector’s transition to electrification. Chris shares his journey, tackling key challenges businesses face when adopting EVs, especially with commercial fleets, and busting common EV myths around cost, battery life, and range. He also discusses the GreenFleet EV Rally, where a 9-year-old Tesla proved the resilience of EV batteries, and highlights the growing role of electrification in building a cleaner, more sustainable future for the UK.

Chris Chandler Bio:
Chris Chandler began his professional journey after earning a degree in quantity surveying. He secured an esteemed position as a quantity surveyor in his hometown of Winchester. However, the building recession of 1991 disrupted his career path, leading to his redundancy. Undeterred, Chris diversified his skills and took on various roles. Notably, he became an engineer for a company specialising in the construction of underground pollution interceptors, large catch tanks, and flood control devices. Through this role, Chris gained a profound understanding of environmental issues, particularly the impact of pollutants and spills from roads and vehicles. His career reflects resilience and adaptability in the face of industry challenges.

Chris Chandler Links:
Website: https://www.lexautolease.co.uk
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-chandler-756b9813?

Episode Keywords:
Electric vehicles, EV transition, corporate EV adoption, EV tax incentives, EV financial benefits, decarbonisation of transport, sustainability efforts, EV misinformation, commercial vehicle electrification, depot charging challenges, overnight EV charging, daytime EV charging, residential EV adoption, used EV affordability, public EV perception, EV battery health certificate, regenerative braking.

Episode

Transcript

Liz Allan  [00:00:01]:
On today's episode, I have Chris Chandler with me. He is a principal consultant for Lex Auto Lease. Thank you so much for joining me, Chris.

Chris Chandler [00:00:28]:
Hi, Liz. No pleasure. Looking forward to looking forward to having a good chat.

Liz Allan  [00:00:32]:
So we've met a couple of times. We were on the you were on the Greenfleet EV Rally, which I'll talk about a little bit later. But let's kind of recap on the length of time you've been at Lex for a start off, which is 17 years. A long that's that's quite a substantial amount of time, isn't it?

Chris Chandler [00:00:51]:
It is. It's been a fair while, but, you know, it's been an exciting and interesting journey because, you know, over that period, we've had a lot of changes within the fleet industry and the automotive industry, you know, itself. So, it has been very interesting times, and I think exciting times ahead.

Liz Allan  [00:01:14]:
Absolutely. So, starting right back when you went to university, we realised that we're both the same age, which I quite like as well. But you went to Portsmouth Uni, didn't you? And you, tell us a bit about the degree you took and how you got from there to where you are now.

Chris Chandler [00:01:33]:
Yeah. Well, interestingly, like many people in Fleet, it isn't really a business area where you go to university and get a degree.

Liz Allan  [00:01:42]:
Right.

Chris Chandler [00:01:43]:
People in Fleet are from all different walks of life. So, yeah, I started off, doing building surveying and then moved into quantity surveying.

Liz Allan  [00:01:54]:
Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:01:54]:
I did a degree in quantity surveying. And I got a really good role in quantity as a quantity surveyor in Winchester, where I live. And then the 91 sort of building sort of recession hit the building industry. And, so, I was made redundant, and then I did all sorts of things. I was an engineer for a company that built underground pollution interceptors, big garbage catch tanks, and flood control devices. So I started understanding how much stuff washed off the roads that came off cars and, you know, spilled fuels and what have you. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:02:37]:
And I was looking around, trying to find something interesting to do, and I've always loved cars. So, when there was an opportunity to join a company that did fleet management and was looking after big fleets of corporate vehicles, I thought that sounded like a good idea. So, I started in a small company. There were only 5 of us called fleet audits as independent fleet consultants. And then I went from that after 12 years to Lex Auto Lease.

Liz Allan  [00:03:10]:
So you've stayed in this sector for a long time, right? And you must have seen so many changes like you said, just talking briefly about it. But what is a day in Chris Chandler's life? Or is it that you're doing so many different things?

Chris Chandler [00:03:32]:
Well, it is varied, which is good because, to be honest, I have a relatively low boredom threshold, so it's slightly good to do all sorts of things. But, I mean, I've got a couple of roles now. So if you like, I think it's about 4 years ago. Lloyds Transport has 3 businesses. So it's got Lex Autolease, which is the corporate, B2B side. And that's where I've resided as a principal consultant there. 

Chris Chandler [00:04:06]:
We also have now Tusker, which is our salary sacrifice brand, and Black Horse, which is our retail, which is new and used. And that's quite interesting because that's everything from motorbikes to motor homes, so it's not just cars and vans.

Liz Allan  [00:04:20]:
Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:04:21]:
Cars and vans. So, across Lloyds Transport, I'm the SME for alternative fuels and electrification. Within Lex Autolase, I'm I'm fundamentally a consultant looking at the large corporate fleets. So, yeah, over that period, although we had electric vehicles before this, they were what I call cottage industry vehicles like MODECs. Right. Our first sort of mainstream electric vehicles were a small gaggle of Nissan LEAFS, the first ones in the country, that we put out in the quarter of 2011. So Yeah. We've been doing electrification for a little while now at Lex, and I also leased the 1st operational hydrogen fuel cell vehicle to the University of Birmingham.

Chris Chandler [00:05:20]:
So Okay. You know, we're settling into electric, and yes, we've looked at other fuels. Prior to my time settling into electric, we've looked at other fuels. And prior to my time at Lex Autolish and during Lex Autolish, you know, I looked at gaseous fuels for various, also sustainable, biofuels, etcetera. So over that 1, 1996, I started. So over that period, there's been quite a few, quite a few opportunities to, you know, reduce vehicle emissions.

Liz Allan  [00:05:56]:
So, as you said, you support corporates, don't you? When I met you, I was talking to you about this before we started recording. I met you at the Greenfleet EV rally. It was like a knowledge session. It helped people understand what would happen at the EV Rally at the AA rally in Wolverhampton. And you came across to me as a really customer-focused person. That's what I liked about it because it totally, you know, ticked my boxes. I was thinking, god, I really like what this guy is saying. Has this always been the way? 

Chris Chandler [00:06:38]:
I mean, it's it's it's it's very kind of you say that. But, yeah, we like to think we're very customer-focused. I like to think I am. And for me, the challenge of being a consultant is not to deliver your solution to the customer but to deliver the best solution for the customer. And although I'm a, you know, I'm a big advocate of of, you know, pure electric vehicles, And I believe, especially for cars, they work in the majority of cases for LCVs, a bit harder. Mhmm. But it is all about finding the right solutions for the right customers and, therefore, the right vehicles for the right application. And, you know, often, it's not about saying you've got to do all this now.

Chris Chandler [00:07:27]:
It's about building a strategy, a glide path to get to a 0 carbon, you know, scenario and to and to meet their internal goals. So, yeah, I like to think that we're we're we're here to solve customer solutions and enable the customers to get to their choice. And we've got some customers who are very, very well along the, EV transition, if you like. Mhmm. So I think my team, one of our customers, and I work with my team on their early transition days. I believe they are up to about 6,000 pure electric vehicles. And then we've got other smaller fleets that are much earlier in the transition, so they need completely different kinds of these first stages. Where do we charge? How do we how do we get drivers on board and get them bought in? So when you look at some of the more advanced fleets, you're really dealing with that last difficult 10 or 15% that might be because of vehicle types or vehicle locations or operating cycles.

Liz Allan  [00:08:41]:
So what have you seen, being around this sector for such a long time and moving to electrification specifically? Obviously, you're working with lots of different companies, but what are the biggest challenges that you're coming across as a consultant, but also, you know, are there regular are there things that are coming up regularly that you can solve, and then all of a sudden there's kinda like a curve ball that kinda goes, oh my god. Right. Okay. That's a new one that's come across our bows now.

Chris Chandler [00:09:14]:
Yeah. I think a large part of it at the moment, and, you know, I've talked about this for weeks, but it's misinformation and misunderstanding of the technologies, of the charging infrastructure, of what it means to go electric. But I think if we put that aside and say that's an educational piece, the largest challenges that I see at the moment are for commercial vehicles. Mhmm. It's where commercial vehicles are taken home, so you don't necessarily have depot charging every night. And it's where you have more specialist or modified vehicles. So, for instance, there's there's no real choice at the moment, although it's coming with regards to 4 by 4 pickup trucks with full off-road capability. So those we sometimes have to park.

Chris Chandler [00:10:12]:
Don't give up on your transition, but just put those in the list. We don't have a vehicle yet, so we don't have a solution yet.

Liz Allan  [00:10:22]:
Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:10:22]:
And we go to manufacturers, talk about this and say, look. There is demand here, so it shouldn't stop your transition. But be aware that if you can't do anything there, just park it for the moment, but don't forget about it. Mhmm. But when I think of the real issues, commercial vehicles charging overnight is probably one of the hardest. Because even if somebody has got a drive, let's say, for the van, you know, where I live, we have covenants where for for for for the area we live, where you can't have a commercial sign written vehicle on your drive.

Chris Chandler [00:10:58]:
And they have an issue where people don't wanna put the van on their drive even though they've gotta drive because then they've gotta put their personal car on the road, and that might increase their insurance because now their personal car is not parked on a safe and secure drive. So it's not always that you physically have the ability. Will the driver allow it as well? And there are ways of getting over that, but you have to drill down to find out where the problem is. Mhmm. There have been studies where they've just counted drives and say, well, x percent of the UK can go over to electric, but it's a little bit more nuanced than that.

Liz Allan  [00:11:34]:
Yeah. So are you saying that those vehicles that would normally have been taken home, you know, like you're saying now, is that kind of the example that we're looking at? So the ones that would normally have been taken home, left on the road, person goes in, you know, comes back out in the morning, and the vehicle, whether it was petrol or diesel, diesel more likely, would have just jumped in and carried on. Is that what we're talking about here? So, there's a difference in how this's happening now?

Chris Chandler [00:12:08]:
Yeah. So so with an electric vehicle, ideally, you want it to charge as cheaply as possible.

Liz Allan  [00:12:14]:
And that's very high

Chris Chandler [00:12:15]:
On a slow charger. So if they can't charge that at night, if they take a vehicle home, you've now got to look at what the actual business activity they're doing is. Yeah. They also have any sites or dwell times that they can charge during the day. Now, obviously, if you've got an engineer who's going to go to customers' premises and could be there, you know, he or she could be there for 3, 4 hours. Yes. If you are working on some equipment, then that's actually a charging opportunity. So you need to talk to your customers and see if there's an opportunity to charge them. If you're more like a delivery company and the vehicle will be moving all day, and you don't have those dwell times, that's when you start the challenges.

Chris Chandler [00:13:03]:
But for us as a lease co, we have to ask some of these questions so that we can try and identify, the ease of going electric. Now, if somebody can charge at home, it's quite simple because they plug it in. It would be cheap rate electricity. There are ways to pay that electricity directly to the energy companies so the driver isn't exposed to that cost. So, you know, we're in a much better place now than we were, say, 4 or 5 years ago. And it's up up, and we're looking at all sorts of things. But it is that small percentage if you're talking about sort of the hard yards. It's that small percentage of commercial vehicles that are taken home that probably provides us with the biggest if you like, challenges at the moment.

Chris Chandler [00:13:50]:
Cars probably provide us with the least, because their range is high. A car is typically used to move people around. You know, you don't have things like power takeoffs. You don't have things like auxiliary equipment. And the car ranges are really good now. They're becoming more affordable. I think some of them have always been good value for money if you look at whole life cost, But, especially in the retail space, that's quite a hard concept and a bit of maths. 


Chris Chandler [00:14:26]:
And so, yeah, I think car cars are much simpler. It is those commercial vehicles and some of those issues of how do you charge. And I and we have had some companies that have changed their, actual business model, you know, to allow electric vehicles onto the fleet, and and that can actually bring with it, increased efficiencies as well.

Liz Allan  [00:14:50]:
Yeah. And I was gonna say it's again, it's just addressing them, these issues as they come up. I was gonna say, we've got talk going back to what you were saying about mids as well. There are quite a lot of myths around cost of ownership, aren't there? Because, you know, I was talking to a friend, the other day, and she was saying, yeah, but they're really expensive EVs. I went, well, do you buy new normally? She said. no not normally. She's got a 2011 Kia Sportage, and actually, she knows, long term she needs to move to electric.

Liz Allan  [00:15:30]:
But when I said, you know, do you buy brand new? She said no. The one that she's got was 6 months old. And I said, well, there's some excellent deals out there. And when you start looking for secondhand, you know, used EVs, there's a lot more opportunity out there. But it's that, again, that myth about, you know, they're a lot more expensive. Well, have you looked and compared? 

Chris Chandler [00:15:57]:
And I think that that's the sad thing about certain areas of press and social media, messaging and narrative. Because, you know, there's lots of figures that have come out of people like Auto Trader showing that effectively used EVs, for the majority are kind of a price parity with internal combustion engine vehicles. Yeah. I was looking just the other week just to see what you could get for under, £10,000. A used vehicle. And there were 3 4-year-old Peugeot 208 electrics, Nissan Leafs, that there are lots of good vehicles with absolutely enough range for the average person at a low cost at the moment. I think that in time, those prices are gonna go up. At the moment, they're artificially low because people are nervous, and the used market is not quite as ready for electric as the corporate market is.

Chris Chandler [00:17:02]:
In the corporate market, you've got benefit in kind. You've got NI savings. And in the used market, you don't have the, if you like, the government or in life incentives in the same way that are so obvious. Now, once you scratch the surface and you realise that if you have cheap rate nighttime electric like I do

Chris Chandler [00:17:26]:
I've got a Tesla Model 3 long-range, and it cost me about £6. I mean, I never charge it from empty to full. But if I did, it would cost me about £6. And motorway miles, I get about 330 miles out of that, and I get a bit more in mixed motoring. So whenever you use it, that's very, very cost-effective motoring.

Liz Allan  [00:17:49]:
Oh, god. Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:17:50]:
But it's difficult to explain that to people exactly if you had when somebody just turns around and says, well, I've seen they're really expensive. And then you have just to start chipping away. Well, they're they're not more expensive if you get them secondhand. And then you have your fuel saving, and then, you know, they don't need as much maintenance as internal combustion engine vehicles. We've done an analysis on our lease budgets, and, you know, electric vehicles are typically 27 to 30% cheaper in our budgets against equivalent ICE. That includes tyres, and I did that on purpose because they were electric vehicles, and they eat tyres. Well, whether they do or not, I personally think it's down to the driver more than the vehicle.

Chris Chandler [00:18:44]:
I put ties into that budget. So those cost savings are maintenance cost savings, full stop. And, it's only when you can have that conversation and start talking about the other benefits that, people start realizing, oh, yeah. Actually, I might have a look at that. But it's just a shame we have to break down the barrier of that first narrative of they're expensive, they don't go very far, the batteries don't last, they catch fire, and all these other things that we hear on a regular basis.

Liz Allan  [00:19:16]:
But I suppose, like you're just saying, there's a number of things that that people hear in that negative, you know, kind of the negative media cases that aren't true, which are, you know, there might be a little bit of grain for truth, or maybe it was 10 years ago the range was lower because we've, you know, because of how things were, but the other thing that I don't you know, people don't recognise them. And my other friend, same group of friends, another friend's husband's just got an Audi E Tron, and we were talking about, you know, efficiency driving efficiency. And it's the same. That driving efficiency is is really the same as putting your foot. If you put your foot down in an EV, it's the same as putting your foot down in a petrol or diesel car, isn't it? You're gonna burn that fuel whether it's electricity, petrol, or diesel. You're gonna burn it, and then you're gonna be less efficient, you know, but then there's this kind of, oh, well, range and blah blah blah and, you know, so it's these it's this kind of, it's this information that we need to get across that cars drive like cars. And if you are gonna go faster and you're gonna, you know, you're gonna drive it like you stole it all the time, then, of course, you're not gonna get the range that you would do in the same way that you wouldn't get the mileage in a, you know, in a petrol or diesel car.

Chris Chandler [00:20:38]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, an interesting fact is, and we're always very open about this, electric vehicles range reduces in cold weather.

Liz Allan  [00:20:49]:
Mhmm.

Chris Chandler [00:20:50]:
Because batteries are less efficient At really low temperatures. But then so does a petrol and diesel engine. So if you do the analysis, driving a diesel or a petrol engine in the winter, you won't get the same efficiency as you do in the summer. You'll get better fuel efficiency if you've got a damp day. The engines work better when there's a bit of moisture in the air. But people have never spoken about that before. People haven't really bothered talking about that when there's petrol or diesel because there's just petrol or diesel.

Chris Chandler [00:21:21]:
Now you bring in a different fuel type, and suddenly people go, oh, yeah. But in winter, they're not as efficient. Well, neither is yours. The really interesting thing, though, is that you've said no. If you accelerate away harshly, etcetera, it's gonna use energy. It will, whatever fuel type. One of the interesting things about electric vehicles is that I get a little bit upset when people turn off the regenerative braking.

Liz Allan  [00:21:46]:
Oh, no. Please don't do it. Don't turn it off.

Chris Chandler [00:21:49]:
You know, especially if you're in a hilly area. Yep. It can be incredible. The first day of the EV rally, we had telematics on our Tesla. Yeah. And we did. I this is all roughly because I can't remember the exact figures, but it was just over 208 miles. And I think we used 104 kilowatts of energy for that day, and it was quite hilly.

Chris Chandler [00:22:19]:
And, 26 kilowatts of that 104 kilowatts was from Regen.

Chris Chandler [00:22:27]:
You're talking a quarter of the energy that went into the battery . Came from slowing down or going down a hill.

Liz Allan  [00:22:34]:
Yeah. And then you slow down differently. Yeah. It's it's honestly go on. Sorry, Chris.

Chris Chandler [00:22:41]:
Yeah. I had a Tesla Model 3. I had it just over 4 years ago, and I did 64,000 miles in it. I didn't do as many miles as I normally do, to be honest, because I got it the 1st day of lockdown. It was a contactless handover. The interesting thing about that car is that when it went back earlier this year, I ran my thumb along the front brake discs.

Liz Allan  [00:23:09]:
Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:23:09]:
And they were smooth. And then my wife's got a Peugeot 3008 diesel, and that's got 66, and that's got 44,000 miles on a clock, so 22 less. And I ran my thumb along the brake discs, and they were ridged. And there was a three mil lip at the end, which just shows a traditional car's brakes versus regen because I only ever use my brakes when I come to a stop unless, obviously, I need to do harsher braking. But I drive 90, 95% of my time on regen. And then, when the car comes to a stop, you press the brake pedal. And in doing that, you activate the brakes. And that means the brakes still get used, and all the mechanics of them carry on working, so they're not gonna seize or have a problem.

Chris Chandler [00:23:56]:
I'm not actually using them and wearing them all out. So my car went back with pretty much brand new discs and pads.

Liz Allan  [00:24:04]:
There you go. See, I get I'm a bit sad because I get really excited when I get a mile back going down a hill with regen this weekend. So I don't know what it is about my friend Kelie. I love her to bits, but we always end up getting home with hardly any range left. We went over to East London, so for me it was about 80 odd miles and then, but I knew I'd be able to get back okay, but, you know, actually just seeing that little bit, that mile coming back or, you know, just knowing that you can do that and I found it. I didn't know when I got it. I've only been driving electric for about 18 months, maybe now, and I've never really driven anything like an automatic. It was initially a bit like, oh my god, how do I feel about this? But actually, I took to it like a duck to water. I love driving anyway.

Liz Allan  [00:25:01]:
And regenerative braking, the fact that you can slow down, and it's just that gentle lifting of the accelerator. It's not like you do with a petrol or diesel car because I've discussed this in the podcast before. My nephew, you know, he wasn't really told or didn't understand about regen, so he was taking his foot off the accelerator like he would normally do if he were changing down gears, you know, and then he had that whole, you know, kind of launching stomach thing, you know, where you're feeling a bit, oh god. So he didn't really like EVs, but actually, one of my friends I was saying about the range thing, I let I insured her on our car a few weeks back, and we were all away for the weekend. And I just said, look. It's just gentle. Take your foot off the accelerator and accelerate gently. Blah, blah, blah. She was brilliant, taking corners, the whole lot.

Liz Allan  [00:25:56]:
You know, knowing that she didn't have to put a foot on the brake like you say until she came to a stop was just brilliant.

Chris Chandler [00:26:03]:
Yeah. And I think we've mentioned it a couple of times, not talked about it yet, but, I mean, on the EV rally that we did this year, the Greenfleet EV rally, let to the main sponsor the headline sponsor, we we we've done it 3 times now. Mhmm. And this year, I decided I wanted to do something a little bit different. So what we did was we set up an internal competition full of Lloyds Banking Group colleagues and said, if you want to be on the EV rally as a driver for a day, write in, tell us why you want to be on the rally. And we had our responses come in, and we had lots of sort of, you know, keen EV drivers, etcetera, which was really great to see. But we had 3 sceptics. One I'll call a mild sceptic.

Chris Chandler [00:26:54]:
So she had an EV, but only drove it locally and used their diesel vehicle for long journeys because she was nervous about the public charging.

Chris Chandler [00:27:04]:
1 was a mid-EV sceptic, never driven one, but didn't really see the point, and sort of not anti, but definitely not motivated necessarily to go and buy 1 tomorrow. And the third one was an absolute sceptic.

Chris Chandler [00:27:19]:
And, we put them all on a day on the rally, and the real sceptic was with me because I just thought I was gonna stand a little chance to success here. So I thought if this goes wrong on us, it's my fault because I was, you know, one of the car. But but but we took a really nice guy. He started off quite open-minded for an EV sceptic. Yeah. But the backstory is that he lives in London. I hope he won't mind me saying this. He lives in London.

Chris Chandler [00:27:59]:
He's got a BMW, which, to be honest, he doesn't use as his daily transport because he's in London, so he uses public transport. Yeah. But he likes going on weekend trips into Europe in the car with his other friends who were sort of, you know, petrolheads. Yeah. Okay. I used to be a freelance motoring journalist. I used to test cars for a living. You know? I like nice, you know, nice cars, etcetera, etcetera.

Chris Chandler [00:28:25]:
So I get that he's got his M4, and he loves it. But the interesting thing was at the end of the day with me in a car, and I don't think I browbeat him, we've done charging. We've done single-pedal driving, all these sorts of things. And he turned around and said, I like this car. And he said if I had to have a car that I had to drive all the time rather than a bit of a Sunday toy, I think I'd have electric now. And to me, that was one of my sorts of Yes. Big wins because it was it it it it was somebody who just proved something that we've said for many years, which is if you get somebody behind the wheel, they start experiencing it, so the prejudices or the misinformation start disappearing, and then they start asking you the questions that are the questions that need to be asked

Chris Chandler [00:29:21]:
Which is, you know, would this work for me? How much are they? What will this cost? How many charging points and stations are there in the UK? Rather than, oh, no. The batteries fail. They catch on fire and are not good for the environment. And it is interesting seeing that. So the one somebody's experienced it, they start asking the questions about, so how much is a home charger? And, you know, if I charge it at night, what will what will it cost? Or are there any differences in how I charge it and cost-wise? So it's really interesting for me because we had those 3 sceptics on, and they all went away happy. And I'm really happy that, I think it was Lucy who didn't like the long-distance issue sort of because we'd been and stopped rapid charging stations, she had a lot more confidence of, you know what? As long as I've got the right apps and as long as I'm, you know, I know the the the the brands that I'm I'm comfortable and are on my apps, I'll sort of make the longer journeys.

Liz Allan  [00:30:22]:
And that's it. It's about making it work for you, as a person and like you say about the questions. And I'd and I think it isn't until you get somebody sat behind the wheel, they don't I always say this, you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. You know? And, actually, can we talk in more detail about the Greenfleet EV rally? Let's just talk about the Tesla. Were you driving the Tesla all the time? Because it wasn't a new Tesla, was it?

Chris Chandler [00:30:57]:
No. No. So, as I said, this is the third time we've done the EV rally, and we really don't want it just to be the latest, nice, new, shiny cars driving around. I mean, it's great to show the latest technology because, obviously, ranges have increased over the years, etcetera. But we just felt that we wanted to do something different. And I wanted to try and kick some of these myths about the batteries not lasting, and, you know, the car's ranges all die after sort of 3, 4 years. We want we wanted to do something that just visually and simply proves that's not the case. Mhmm.

Chris Chandler [00:31:40]:
So we had it was nearly 9 years old. It was a Tesla Model S.

Chris Chandler [00:31:46]:
And it had when we picked it up, it had, I think it was 152,000 miles on the clock. Original battery, original motor. Yeah. All the main running gear was, you know, as is. But the interesting thing about this car was for the 1st 4 years, it was a Tesla customer car. So they retail sold, and then they brought it back into the network. And then ever since then, it has been used by an engineer who maintains the supercharging network.

Chris Chandler [00:32:16]:
Basically, this has been used as a van.

Liz Allan  [00:32:19]:
Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

Chris Chandler [00:32:21]:
And, you know, it had a few battle scars, a few scrapes on the paint, and a few scars. And in the boot where heavy equipment had been thrown in, there were some nicks out of them, so there were little bits of untidiness, which I actually like because it demonstrated that this isn't a car that had been wrapped in cotton wool and just gently driven up in our metro. This has been used, you know, properly used. And I had a lot of people in the car, different people in the car with me over the week. I had Nick Williams, who's the MD of Lloyds Transport. I had Cameron from Tesla. I had obviously Nick, the sceptic. And for the first two days, I also had Quentin Wilson. 

Chris Chandler [00:33:09]:
Who you know well. Now I've got a bit of experience with cars. As I said, I used to test them and evaluate them, etc. Quentin is encyclopedic, but he's not with John Vitts. And at the end of the 1st day, we both got out of that test and said, can't believe how good it is. It just drove like a car with 20,000 miles on the clock. Yeah. Not 250,000 miles on the clock.

Chris Chandler [00:33:40]:
It was rated at charging at 120 kilowatts when new. We got it up to 120 kilowatts on an ultra-rapid charger. Mhmm. And we didn't run it empty for obvious reasons, but we were getting 2 30, 2 40 mile range out of it for a near 9-year-old vehicle.

Liz Allan  [00:34:01]:
Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:34:02]:
So, you know, it had lost very few miles. So I don't know exactly what it was, but when you look at Tesla's claim that a car with 200,000 miles has, on average, lost 12%. Mhmm. We were in that ballpark.

Liz Allan  [00:34:23]:
Which is just amazing. So this whole, you know, kind of used EV scepticism, I do get it. I do get it because, actually and I don't know what your thoughts are about this, but I do feel that we do need some battery health certificate or certification to help people feel a bit more comfortable when they're buying a used EV, you know, but overall, just to prove even if that's the only thing, like like, you get your MOT just to prove that you know, you're at 99% or 98%, and it's 5, 6, 7, however many years, you know, how that works. What what do you think?

Chris Chandler [00:35:13]:
And, interestingly, they're on the way. You know, some of our suppliers and I have been looking at these for a little while. They are on the way. My personal view is once you have a certificate with that vehicle, and for the price of the vehicle, it's not that big of an expenditure, if you like, for peace of mind. There's this falsehood where people think, oh, yes. But if I've got a petrol or a diesel, I know it's alright Because I'll start it from cold, I'll get the engine warm, I'll rev it and see if smoke comes out the back, I'll listen to it and see if it rattles. There are many ways to stop an engine from knocking and rattling, such as putting in different oils. So Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:36:01]:
No. You don't really know what you're buying when you buy a petrol or diesel car. You just look at the mileage, and you take a view of, does it sound okay? Does it look okay? Mhmm. In a battery electric, all you can do really is the same. But if you get that certificate, I think in the short term, it's peace of mind for people who are nervous. Mhmm. Because to me if I was to go and buy an electric vehicle personally, I would just ask them to have it fully charged when I get there. That's what the range is on the vehicle.

Chris Chandler [00:36:37]:
And then I take it for a long test drive so I can see how far I've driven, how much has come off the range, and therefore, that will give me an idea. I couldn't do that with a petrol car.

Liz Allan  [00:36:48]:
No. you couldn't.

Chris Chandler [00:36:49]:
So, actually, I think battery is a little bit less complicated than petrol. But I believe in the short term, whilst people are building the confidence to something that's new, and it is new, and it is a big departure for a lot of people, and if you're putting your hand especially used if you're putting your hand in your back pocket for a used vehicle, and you might be spending 10, £20,000, you don't really wanna take a massive risk on something. So people can default to what they're used to. But, you know, what I would say is if you do buy a battery electric vehicle in the UK, pretty much all those vehicles have an 8-year, 100,000-mile warranty on the battery. Within the ZEV mandate, a clause says it can only be counted in the ZEV mandate figures if it has that warranty. So even if you're buying your secondhand vehicle, you're buying it for 4 years and will keep it for 4 years.

Chris Chandler [00:37:57]:
If that battery goes below 70%, you still have a manufacturer's warranty.

Liz Allan  [00:38:02]:
So either way, it's peace of mind, isn't it? And I don't think people realise that actually it's it's not one or the other. You can get both, and you'll get you know, it's it's the whole thing.

Chris Chandler [00:38:13]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, we need to be honest. Do batteries degrade over time? Yes. They do.

Chris Chandler [00:38:19]:
But it's not this degradation that is perilously fast, and after 4 years, your vehicle is not worth anything. Yeah. It's a slow degradation, just like petrol and diesel engines, which have become less efficient because they have loads of moving parts. Diesel engines become less efficient because they have loads of moving parts and wearing parts, and they become less efficient. And we have to be honest and say yes. They do to Tesla. You know? Before you go much past 12%, you probably have 200 miles and 200,000 miles on the vehicle. And, in fact, you know, the interesting thing now is I think most manufacturers have come forward and said these are lasting longer than we were expecting so that they're even lasting longer than manufacturers thought in the first place.

Chris Chandler [00:39:09]:
But it's incumbent upon us to make sure that people know about the warranties and so that people understand that these vehicles and the battery technology is good and will last. And some will go wrong. Petrol and diesel cars go wrong and have recourse. Exactly. Some will go wrong.

Liz Allan  [00:39:29]:
Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:39:29]:
But the point is, statistically, we're not moving into a more fragile or worse technology than the one we've moved away from. Mhmm. Away from. And I think that that's the key point. I can't stand there hand on my heart and say it won't break down, or this might won't happen, or that won't happen in every single case because there will be some. But statistically, EVs are looking far, far, far more robust than, you know, traditional fuels. And I know if I look at the last diesel car that I had a good few years ago, it used to go in for servicing and repairs a lot more than my test my last test did because my Tesla didn't need to service, so it didn't go in. I had one little noise from the front and a front bush changed.

Chris Chandler [00:40:16]:
And Tesla said, we've upgraded these, and so we'll put the new one in. So that was done on warranty. And you look at it, and you think, yeah, but it's a brand new vehicle. And if you look at petrol and diesel cars, when they're brand new, manufacturers call them back to change a bit that maybe wasn't quite as robust as they thought, or any new vehicle is always gonna have a few little teething points and teething parts. My mind was sorted, and it hardly went anywhere near a garage. It's, you know, for its life. It went in literally more for tyres than it did for anything going wrong or servicing. So it's really making people feel comfortable that they can invest in the new technology, and I think that's the thing.

Chris Chandler [00:41:04]:
And, you know, we spoke earlier about the first electric I had on the fleet, you know, Nissan LEAF 70 mile range, Chademo high-speed charging. There won't be very many Chademp high-speed chargers. If you were lucky, there were 2 units, and it was every 5th service station. You know? Even just in the last 12 months, you know, the first EV rally, which was 3 years ago, was very sociable because we were stopping at charge points and we were queuing up in some places.

Liz Allan  [00:41:38]:
Oh gosh. Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:41:39]:
It was lovely and sociable. This year's was less sociable because there were rapid charges everywhere. There were banks of rapid and ultra-rapid charges, not just 2 or 3. There were, like, 10 or 30. So people and all the vehicles now charge at so much higher speeds, 150, 250 kilowatts. So you're 10, 20, be there 15 to 20 minutes. So, actually, the sociable side of the EV rally disappeared a bit, going to the benefit of how good the charging infrastructure is now.

Liz Allan  [00:42:15]:
Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:42:15]:
Every time I stop at a Metroway service now, if they haven't got a big bank of ultra-rapid chargers, there's a signup or a hole in the ground saying they're coming.

Liz Allan  [00:42:26]:
And there, like you say, there are absolutely loads within the UK, the numbers are growing all the time. I know we're on target. Was it 300,000 promised in 2030? We're on target for that. So, as you said, I mean, I did feel, and I've said this before, I felt that we slightly cheated being in an in model s, you know, kind of on the rally, a new one as well. It did look amazing, though. Stuart Signs had put some amazing livery on it. It just kind of, it stood out, our pink, our pink Tesla, you know, but you couldn't miss us coming on, especially when George was turning up the music really, really loud, and I was like, oh god. Not again.

Liz Allan  [00:43:17]:
I tell you, if I hear Tesla Girls one more time, that was what I was like. I was like, if I hear Tesla Girls by OMD, I'm gonna scream. It's that era.

Chris Chandler [00:43:28]:
Yeah. And, you know, in interestingly, I'd historically shied away from having Teslas on our team. Mhmm. That sounds terrible. But the previous years because if you're using, you know, when the network was a bit sparse if you're in a Tesla, rather than going on the apps and trying to find out where the charge points are and all that sort of, you just put the destination in, the car will sort it for you. And there was a good charging network, and they charge quickly. Mhmm. And so I actually shied away from them to start with because I just thought this is supposed to be a challenge.

Chris Chandler [00:44:07]:
So let's, you know in fact, this year, you know, the vehicles we had, we had 2 vans that were the smaller battery size. So it went from the small batteries, not the large batteries to make it a challenge. And the other vehicle that we had in the rally was, I can't use a certain phrase because I think Top Gear has that, but should we say ladies in an affordable EV? So we had we had a dolphin, which at the end of it, you know, the BYD Dolphin, some of the ladies who drove it had never heard of it or seen it. Mhmm. Mhmm. And they all loved it. They said it's a much bigger insight than it looks, and it had lots of nice kits. It was easy to use.

Chris Chandler [00:44:51]:
They got used to the sort of, you know, the driving, the one pedal driving and all that sort of stuff. Mhmm. Really easy to play with the regen. But, you know, we've been trying to come up with things that aren't just let's get the longest range vehicle we can do. Do it really easily and say it's easy. We've we've used more challenging vehicles. You know, I I have to thank Tesla for giving us that Model S because at the end of the day, it took a little bit of convincing because you can imagine, you know, that certain newspapers and and mainstream media would have probably been involved if it had broken down or something, but

Liz Allan  [00:45:34]:
Oh, yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:45:35]:
It certainly wasn't covered for them for the success of finishing the rally.

Liz Allan  [00:45:40]:
Right. And, honestly, I've got to say some of the vehicles that were on the rally because I was in with the National Grid team on Thursday. So that was a day 4. So when you were saying about the 4 x 4s, I actually didn't drive the Spartan. Still, I was in I was in the Spartan 4 by 4, and that was I would I want to get in and experience that 4 x 4, experience which, you know, which I haven't the off-road one, but then there were a number of different vans and, you know, the team Paua. They had a little van, and a Cleo, you had all your vehicles. And, actually, just seeing this plethora of different vehicles kinda heading off, it was just it's a real it's a sight to behold isn't it?

Chris Chandler [00:46:29]:
Absolutely. And then , of course, there were the other stars and, the 40 tonne fully laden truck.

Chris Chandler [00:46:40]:
Didn't even need to charge on the first, you know, did the first day without having to stop for a charge. And then you had, bless him, Sam Clarke on the motorbike.

Liz Allan  [00:46:52]:
Oh, yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:46:54]:
As as if as if doing, you know, 1400 miles on a motorbike in a week isn't enough, he also ran 5k every day for, you know, our, our sort sort of charity

Chris Chandler [00:47:11]:
That was great, and it raised lots of funds, you know, to help the homeless. So I think when you look at the rally, I mean, what what what a great thing. You've got motorbikes to 40-tonne trucks. Yeah. You've got proven old vehicles. You've got, you know, all sorts of people coming together, be they EV evangelists or sceptics, all coming together, and just simply demonstrating that this tech works. The other nice thing about the EV rally is that we also go to the sustainable generation sites.

Chris Chandler [00:47:50]:
We went to the wind farm that's that was directly charging the HGVs and things like that because this is the interesting thing with vehicle electrification. Its more than the vehicle. You know? It's homes. You can have solar. You can do v to g. You can have batteries at home. So we can start having a more localized energy system, and we and we can make it great. Now, instead of it always annoys me when I'm driving along, you see the wind turbines, and you see a couple going around, and then you see trench oil that is all stopped.

Chris Chandler [00:48:24]:
And even switched off, because because one of my friends says, because they break down all the time, said, no. They're switched off because the grid is at capacity.

Liz Allan  [00:48:31]:
Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:48:31]:
The fact you've got 2 going around shows there's wind. They're switched off because the grid's at capacity.

Chris Chandler [00:48:37]:
And we switched off the renewables, Which is when it's capacity.

Liz Allan  [00:48:41]:
Which seems bonkers, doesn't it?

Chris Chandler [00:48:43]:
Absolutely. So we can take that and store it in our cars or in the batteries and then use that when the grid is at peak. There are so many other things that electrification allows us to do with our UK energy. As you know, the UK has the largest offshore wind farm in the world. We're doing really well at the moment, and I think it was last month we closed our last coal-fired power station.

Liz Allan  [00:49:14]:
It was it was September. Yeah.

Chris Chandler [00:49:18]:
The other thing that all we're doing is shifting the emissions from the tailpipe to the power station, you know, is another falsehood. Now, with the honesty and openness of myth-busting, we still generate energy through incinerators burning waste. So that's another discussion that can be had, but a lot of our energy now is from renewables, and the wind blows, and the sun shines. So it, you know, it would seem crazy not to maximise that.

Liz Allan  [00:49:50]:
Absolutely. And do you know what? I think that's I'm gonna ask you one final question before we end. And my question is, and I've started asking this a little bit, what would you like to see happen in the next few years? But not necessarily to do with your job, but the kind of, you know, in general in the sectors or regarding how we're moving forward with sustainability. What would you like? What are your personal thoughts on where you'd like us to be in the UK?

Chris Chandler [00:50:25]:
To be honest, as we said before, I've been doing some sustainability. I sometimes said before it was trendy. You know, I've been doing it an a long time. And, you know, I think there have been a number of industry-changing events. And I think we're on the cusp of EVs going mainstream. Now, I think they've done that in the corporate car world because there are tax incentives, and there are ways to make that happen. But I think the trajectory we're on is good.

Chris Chandler [00:51:05]:
It'd be good if it could be speeded up. I sometimes hear this negative stuff in the press, a certain press. And I worry because I sit here thinking, do you know what? I've saved a lot of money going over to electric vehicles, so you're stopping people from getting this kind of savings. Yeah. And so I want to see a bit more of electrification for all. We're trying to make vehicles more affordable by doing longer leases and using vehicle leasing, which we now do. And I think my goal is to stop all the war of words and fight and politicise it. Let's turn around and say, do you know what? We get cleaner air in our cities.

Chris Chandler [00:51:54]:
Yeah. They're easier and quieter to drive, so there's that benefit. We know they're cleaner for the environment. And as and as much as people want to argue about whether climate change is real or not, I've studied it for a long time, I believe it is. Well, whether you do or not, I will ask myself if I would prefer to have been told about it and done nothing.

Liz Allan  [00:52:18]:
Mhmm.

Chris Chandler [00:52:19]:
And then be proven wrong, or would I prefer to do something about it? And I personally don't think that going from a petrol vehicle, and I'm a bit of a bit of a petrol head. You know? I sometimes get called out because, you know, I've got an old classic car, but that car, which hits historical status in 2 years, that that car has averaged 500 miles a year every year for the last 15 years. Mhmm. So I don't think that's destroying the environment. So I think we've got to stop all this sort of, almost attacking. Yeah. And get on to it. Do you know what? We can make a difference, so let's do it, and let's not sort of point out. We've got to decarbonise transport. And I and I think it's just getting on and doing it.

Chris Chandler [00:53:24]:
And there are some brilliant people in the industry. You know, we meet them at conferences, we see them at the rallies, etc. Some great people are doing great things, and I think we just need to keep recognising that and pushing forward. But I'm very hopeful. I'm a glass half full anyway. So, you know, I'm really hopeful, and I think the advances we're seeing in electrification are just making it an absolute no-brainer to focus down on it and just keep accelerating it. And let's face it. We don't live in a very large country.

Liz Allan  [00:54:01]:
No. We don't. So, theoretically, it should be easier for us.

Chris Chandler [00:54:06]:
It should be quite simple.

Liz Allan  [00:54:08]:
Chris, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, honestly. And you said before we started recording that you talk a lot. I talk a lot. I could speak to you for a lot longer than this. But I will stop there and say thank you ever so much for your time. It's been lovely talking to you, understanding about you as a person, but also the myth-busting side, what you do, you know, in Lex and just getting to know you a little bit more. And hopefully, everybody else who's been listening and watching feels like me, you know, that they know you a little bit now. So, yeah, thank you very much.

Chris Chandler [00:54:47]:
No. Thank you, Liz. It's been a pleasure and lovely talking to you.

Liz Allan  [00:54:50]:
So I'm gonna end as I've started to do over the last number of episodes by saying the only way that you can actually spread the word about this podcast is by commenting, liking, subscribing, all those wonderful things. And for people to, you know, actually get to know Chris a little bit, we want that as well. So, if you can, if you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe. If you're listening to this, please either, you know, put comments. Let's try to get that word out to more people. And again, thank you very much for watching and listening. I will see you next time. Thanks then.

Liz Allan  [00:55:30]:
Bye bye. Bye.