Defying Mandates and Upholding Faith: The Intersection of Biblical Ethics and Modern Medicine- With Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Discover how biblical values intersect with modern medicine as we welcome Dr. Mary Talley Bowden, the fearless physician who defied federal health authorities during the pandemic. Her tenacity in advocating for treatments like ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, despite pushback, echoes our broader discussion on the transformative power of faith and ethics in reshaping societal norms. We explore the potential for Christian principles to revolutionize the justice system, business ethics, and societal trust, and celebrate Dr. Bowden's legal victories that demand truth and transparency in healthcare. Together we weave through the complex tapestry of faith, culture, and medicine, examining the backbone of integrity that supports it all.

In a world where silence often prevails in the medical community, we challenge the status quo, probing the psychological effects of one-sided narratives and the dire need for open debate and diverse perspectives. Sharing personal experiences of censorship and the resurgence of platforms fostering dialogue, we underline the importance of re-education and incremental progress in combating misinformation. We also navigate the thorny ethical dilemma surrounding pharmacists' refusal to fill ivermectin prescriptions, illuminating Dr. Bowden's experiences within this contentious landscape. The episode concludes with a reflection on the founding vision of a decentralized approach to health crises, emphasizing a collective effort to bridge the gap between healthcare professionals and policymakers for the betterment of public health and policy reform.

Chapters

• 0:01 Biblical Values in Culture and Medicine
• 13:30 Challenging Medical Authority and Promoting Debate
• 21:27 Pharmacist Refusal of Ivermectin Prescriptions

Transcript

Rick Green

Welcome to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for joining us today. This is the intersection of faith and culture. That means we actually allow our faith to influence the culture around us. Imagine that. Actually treating your neighbor the way you want to be treated what a concept. I wonder where I've heard that before. Yeah, yeah, biblical idea, right, Christian idea. Actually being a Christian influence in the culture is good for everybody, because if we once again had a culture where everybody was treating their neighbor the way they want to be treated, imagine how our justice system would look. Imagine what our business transactions would be like. Imagine how much more you would trust the person you take your car to or have work on your house, or whatever it might be. Let's get back to those biblical values. That's what we're all about here at WallBuilders rebuilding those foundational principles that make a great, wonderful place to live. Then, in other words, create a society where you want to raise your kids and your grandkids. We have everything we need to be able to do that. It's just a matter of us using the tools that God gave us and actually participating in the process. That's what we do here at WallBuilders. We're glad you're a part of it. Thanks for coming alongside us.

I'm Rick Green, America's Constitution Coach, here with David Barton and Tim Barton David's America's premier historian and our founder at Wall Builders. Tim's a national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. 

All right, David and Tim. Coming up a little later, Dr. Mary Talley Bowden we never had her on the program before, but she has been a stalwart leader during the COVID chaos for doctors to be able to prescribe things like ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, budesonide all those things that the doctors that were actually practicing medicine and not just following the demands of the FDA and the Center for Dementia Confusion, better known as the CDC, and so she's been on the front lines of that.

And you remember, guys, whenever we got all the posts from the FDA saying you're not a horse, don't use ivermectin for COVID, and they basically tried to intimidate everybody into not using what people like Joe Rogan and others were having great success with.

And not that it was a silver bullet right, it didn't work for everybody, but it was working for a lot of people and they didn't want anybody doing it because, as we've talked about on the program, if you talked about it or people knew there was any other treatment, that cut a hole right through the emergency authorization statute so they couldn't push the vaccines out if there were other treatments, and so it was all part of their kind of legal wrangling in manipulating the message.

Well, thankfully, because of Dr. Bowden, who's going to be on in a few minutes, and other doctors, they finally got a lawsuit after the FDA to try to take down some of these most egregious claims like ivermectin does not, absolutely does not work for COVID You're not a horse, don't do it that type of stuff. And so apparently, um, the FDA finally just gave in and uh and withdrew a lot of those most outlandish statements and uh wouldn't happen without, uh, without Dr. Bowden. So it's going to be great to have her on, but man there's. I've talked to so many medical professionals like her that just cannot believe that their entire profession really just bowed to all of this stuff from the FDA and the CDC and did not continue to ask questions and to literally practice medicine.

David Barton

You know, one of the things that's really been amazing to me and I guess we've talked about some of this before and that the problem with the federal courts is it takes two or three years to get something done, and so when you're in the middle of COVID and they're shutting down churches like crazy, it took a year and a half to get those cases through the court and get them up where they could really do something with it. And so it takes a while to work the system, and I have been really, really pleased with a number of now genuine academic studies that have been done earlier but they've come out in the last couple of years that just shoot down I mean medically shoot down the CDC's position and they were in something that they admit had never happened before. So how can they be the experts on something that's never happened before and tell you everything about it and tell you what you can and can't do?

Tim Barton

Is that a rhetorical question, because we know how Dr Fauci is the science. So that's how.

David Barton

Oh, oh, I forgot the wizard behind the curtain. I forget. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's. Hey, come on, guys, if you're gonna refer to him.

Rick Green

You gotta refer to him correctly. It's pope Fauci. It's pope Fauci of the covid religion, and and and you must...

David Barton

No, no, no, no, no! But you can't use pope, that's a Christian term. You can't use pope, you gotta find something different.

Rick Green

Maybe it's high priest, uh, or high well.

David Barton

Well, yeah, there you go.

Rick Green

Anyway, you get the point. Ok, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 4:28

But there's now all this great information out and so the lawsuit connected with all the new studies that have come out proving the points that were being made back then three, three and a half, four years ago. It's just really good and good for her for having the courage to take it on and get in the court with it, because, as you said, Rick, the FDA has finally pulled this stuff down. They didn't want to have the lawsuit where they'd have to go into court, actually have to put up their proof and, in a court of law, have a jury decide what the truth is. They would look really bad if it got into that point.

So the good news is that a lot of that bad advice has now been taken down off the government website and you know, I think a lot of the stuff you're talking about, David, that's happened recently would not have happened if it hadn't been for Elon Musk buying Twitter so that we could once again see, you know, and have a lot of free debate there on Twitter Joe Rogan interviewing Peter McCullough and Robert Malone and all those guys.

I mean, there was some really important inflection points throughout this whole thing that finally freed up the debate, which you know used to be something we were really proud of in the US. Freedom of debate, freedom of discussion, all of those things that, even if somebody disagrees or we think somebody's, you know a wacko for saying whatever they're saying. It's important to have that ability to sharpen each other in that way, and so, you know, very thankful for some of those big moments, like has been mentioned. But let's talk to Dr. Bowden and find out what happened with this, not only with this case, but what it's been like for her treating COVID patients and literally having, you know, her colleagues in the pharmacy industry and in the medical industry not allow her to do what she thinks is best as a physician, as she's dealing with those situations. We'll be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show.

Break

Rick Green

Welcome back to Wall Builders. Thanks for staying with us, Dr. Mary Talley Bowden with us. And Dr Bowden, you have no idea who I am, but I've been following you on social media throughout all this COVID insanity and you have been a wonderful voice of reason. Thank you for leading the charge in the medical community, for sanity, for actually restoring some sanity to the medical community. So with that setup, welcome to the WallBuilders program. Thank you for joining me today.

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Thanks so much for having me, Rick.

Rick Green

Well, you've been fighting this whole thing for years and finally, finally, the FDA has been forced to at least remove some of their absurd statements about ivermectin. But before we even get to that victory and what that might mean, just kind of walk us through the frustration level. When you're actually treating COVID patients on the ground, you're dealing with it day in and day out and you're actually you know practicing medicine. You're trying different things, seeing what works, what doesn't work. There's no silver bullet. But when you find that something works and you cannot even get pharmacies to prescribe it, what is that like for a doctor that's trying to help patients?

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

It's highly frustrating and prior to to covid, I'd never encountered anything like this. I've never had a pharmacist deny prescription for anything. I've written yeah unless there's an allergy or some sort of interaction, uh, but not just flat out refused because there's an agenda, right, it's agenda driven um. So it's very frustrating and, you know, even yesterday I had a pharmacist deny my prescription. So we, you know we've won this lawsuit, but we just have a lot of propaganda to counteract three years with misinformation. We really need to keep talking about it and re-educating the public.

Rick Green

When you say re-education, I mean it really is, because the lies about what works and what doesn't work and the misinformation and different opinions is fine, like I wouldn't call it a lie if somebody just disagreed about whether or not a certain treatment was worth, you know, attempting or trying or or whatever, that's one thing. But when they absolutely emphatically mock you as a medical professional or an individual I mean, look at what they did to Joe Rogan over this, when they mock you and do the things that they did, it does become a lie, because it causes people to completely avoid the treatment or even to do their own homework. I mean that too has got to have been a real battle. I can't even imagine how many times you might have told a patient you know, hey, try this. And they're like, oh no, no, that's only for horses, or whatever. How did you deal with that on a daily basis?

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Well, you know, as word and my notoriety spread, I basically most of the patients that came to me came because they knew my thoughts on the subject. Initially yes, I did have to convince, or occasionally, what would happen is that patients and they'd want their family members to take the ivermectin, and then there'd be some back and forth on that. The patients were less of a problem than the pharmacist and it just it's a repeated issue and I, yeah, I have my list, I have my go-to pharmacies. The problem is usually they're not open on Sundays. Occasionally they're out on Saturdays. They don't take insurance. Yeah, a pill that costs two cents in Africa is now four dollars a pill and it could be hundreds of dollars for a course of treatment for COVID. And then, yeah, then in the hospitals they're flat out denying it. People are trying to sneak ivermectin into the hospitals or suing the hospitals, and even the court system is saying, well, the line on this FDA misinformation to justify denying patients their right to try ivermectin.

Rick Green

I had my dad got you know COVID and had a really bad case and nearly died. And the doctor that really helped him and I think I can't remember now because it was two, three years ago, if it was hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin, it was one of the two, but she couldn't get the pharmacist to prescribe it for him. And so she's literally nursing him back to health and she weighs like 90 pounds and I'm not going to name her because I don't want anybody to go after her, but she literally, like physically, told this pharmacist, you know I'm going to slam you. She did kind of slam me against the wall, basically said I'm the doctor, you're the pharmacist, why are you not? And she ends up saving my dad's life. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind and uh, but I just it just I couldn't believe. And that's in Texas. I could not believe. And you're in Texas.

It's like we're in the land. It's supposed to be, the land of the free, and and our doctors are not allowed to, you know, have the freedom to recommend these things, to prescribe these things. It's just the height of insanity. And I could go on and on and on about why. This is why I think the FDA is an unconstitutional agency in the first place, and because they do these things at the national level, we don't have the competition between state agencies and state practices and that sort of thing, and it takes away that laboratory of freedom that the founders talked about. So that's mostly another topic, but it definitely played itself out here where you had this one size fits all coming from a national narrative that turned out to be wrong in many, many, many of these cases. So walk us through now, with the FDA, this lawsuit. What exactly was the victory, and what exactly has changed with the FDA's at least maybe not behavior, but their statements?

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Yeah, we filed it November of 2022.

So it's been a battle and initially the case was dismissed based on the concept of sovereign immunity, which basically means that the government is doing what they are designed to do with their authority they're authorized to do, then you can't sue them.

So the case was dismissed. But then we appealed and we won that. Then the case was challenged again on standing and we got through that, and so at that point the FDA, I guess, knew they were going to lose and they wanted to settle and they were basically giving up what we wanted in the first place, which was to take down the social media posts that were directing, or unlawfully directing, the public not to take ivermectin for COVID and interfering with the doctor patient relationship. And, as you said, you said the national agency their job is to approve medications for human use. Their job is not to tell patients what to take for certain diseases and not to tell doctors how to prescribe certain medications. So we've gotten their misinformation removed online, but it's also set a very important precedent and then, going forward, it should hamper them from trying something like this again.

Rick Green

How bad is their reputation now in the medical community? Because I don't hear enough doctors saying what you've been willing to say and to take them on on this. I would have thought they would have lost all credibility through this thing. I mean the six foot thing being made up on the spot, the you know all of the ridiculous things they did. Dr Burke's going on television trying to get people to wear goggles. I just, I would think, thinking people would whatever they say, at this point, you just don't even listen to it.

But apparently most of the medical community, which are smart people, right, I mean, I don't know, maybe you have a different story on whether or not the medical community is smart people, but has their reputation not been hurt?

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Yeah, I guess it depends on who you ask but you have to think about this, this has three years of very strong, powerful propaganda thrown at us.

They invested over 11 billion dollars in the pr campaign to combat vaccine hesitancy. That's a lot of money, a lot of people. We have a lot to overcome. So I think a lot of people are frustrated. Okay, we will won this lawsuit, now what? But it's not the end of the war. It's a turning point, but we need to keep talking about it and, like I said, re-educate people. And yeah, we're moving the needle, it just takes a long time.

Rick Green

Yeah, yeah. You raise such an important point because the psychological effect if you're only hearing one side and you're not hearing the other side or the other side is definitely mocked for even their positions. I had to make myself start being more forgiving. I know I should do that as a Christian anyway, right, but I had to be like, instead of immediately seeing somebody, whether it was the mask or whatever and thinking you know, wow, you failed the IQ test I had to start saying wait a minute, wait a minute, pray for them. They're probably only getting one side of the story, and so what you said, right there, is very, very correct.

I don't know, Dr Bowden, how much you're into history, but Patrick Henry, when he started his give me liberty or give me death speech, he said, according to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. Only in this way can we arrive at the truth. That just kept coming back to me throughout this whole thing, because the subject is huge, it's our lives and it's literally shutting down Earth. I mean, that's a big subject and yet there was no freedom of the debate, and so we didn't find truth for the longest time, and even now, as you just pointed out, it's only in pockets where the truth has been allowed to. You know, you've been allowed to try different things and have the debate and arrive at the truth, and what I hear you saying is be hopeful. Listen, it was a long fight, but when we stay in the fight and we keep speaking truth, we can win people over.

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Yes, I could not agree more about the lack of debate, and it's just mind-boggling to me because when I was in my training, there was lots of debate. It was very heated. We'd have these weekly, for example, tumor board meetings where you talk about what's the best approach to treat a patient with this type of cancer, and it was very intellectual and back and forth and that's what I was used to, and they just shut that down. We had these government experts that were not laying hands on people that were strategizing from the safety of their homes, they were Zoom calls telling you know who can get treated and how. It's just unbelievable. And then you know who can get treated and how, it's just unbelievable. And then you know all debate was just shut down. Never seen anything like it.

Rick Green

Yeah, and I can't remember the name, so I remember Walensky. Of course she, in my opinion, should be on trial for the things she told pregnant women would be just perfectly fine and safe. But the other lady that took her place, she was a state health director, and there's video of her laughing about the fact that they were making this stuff up.

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Oh Nancy Cowen

Rick Green

 Yeah, they're literally laughing about making this stuff up on the spot.

These are the professionals.

It's insane. Well, I thank God for you. I mean that I literally thank God for voices like yours that were willing to stand up. There were so few, there were so few. It was like what did the I forget the guy's name from California, but he called it Team Sanity or something like that, and it was just, it was rough man, it was rough, and so at least now we're getting more freedom of speech and we're able to get out there and we're not, you know. Thank you, Elon Musk. I mean, did you get canceled? I wonder about that. Did you get shut down at all?

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Five months. I was banned and he restored me on Christmas day.

Rick Green

No kidding. Well, merry Christmas, yeah, to all of us, because your voice has been important and, um, is there any kind of an association or anything that or anything that has been put together with you and other doctors that stayed sane and wanted to have another outlet? I mean, I wonder if that's one of the next steps.

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Well, there have been lots of little groups.

Rick Green

I mean I saw the frontline doctors.

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

But you know there's some infighting. Of course there's not one huge group. I started something called Coalition for Health Freedom, trying to merge all these groups together, but you know that got overwhelming. I formed a 501c4 called Americans for Health Freedom and that's trying to get politicians together. So I'm trying to get politicians to call for the shots to be pulled off the market.

Rick Green

 Good, 

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

I've been watching that, yeah, and so that's growing. 

Rick Green

You've actually got a ticker tape almost right. How many yeah

Well, if it's any consolation, you know, in the, in the world of on the conservative side of the political realm, it's always harder to get self-governing independent people to come together right the other side. It's much easier because they lock step, you know it's that communist mindset of everybody just does the same thing. So it's always harder to get our team together. So keep at it and we will gladly be a bullhorn for you. So anytime you want your voice to be heard, please call me. Reach out. We'd love to have you back.

Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Thank you, I'd love that.

Rick Green

Well, thanks again for your boldness and thanks for helping to keep us sane and for all the patients that have been saved, because you were willing to speak truth and live that out. Dr Mary Talley Bowden and you should follow her on and now on Twitter. Thank you, Elon Musk. Appreciate you, or X, I guess I should be saying Stay with us folks, We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Break

Rick Green

Thanks for staying with us, thanks to Dr. Bowden for joining us as well and for her courage in standing up for truth and for her patients and, frankly, not for The Science, as Tim pointed out earlier, since that would refer to Fauci. He's the science, but standing up for actual science, you know, actually questioning things and continuing to question them but,

Tim Barton

 But it boggles my mind that that to this day, she's still having problems with pharmacists?

Yeah, like, okay, I didn't know pharmacists had the option to say I'm not going to fill this prescription because I disagree with your medical perspective. Yeah, I mean guys, genuinely, this is this is mind-boggling to me because obviously, pharmacists, they went to medical school too on some level, right, but they're practicing a different kind of medicine and really there's this drug formulation and maybe measuring how drugs might interact with each other. And so, even as Dr. Bowden pointed out, if there might be something that could cause a negative reaction with a drug, then a pharmacist might speak up. There might be something that could cause a negative reaction with a drug, then a pharmacist might speak up, but for the pharmacist to say that I am not going to fill a prescription because I don't like ivermectin.

Again, like I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that, 

Rick Green

I could see a pharmacist saying to the customer hey, I think you ought to beware of this or that, right, okay, fine, I can live with that. And then let the customer say I'm going with my doctor's advice, but they would literally refuse to the doctor's face.

Tim Barton

Right, and you know, rick, to your point. For those who have picked up medication, you know, any time in the last several months that you might remember one of the things, that often when you purchase the medicine, there's a little button on the keypad, right? Do you want to get physician's advice on this? And you have to choose. Do I want to have some guidance on this? And so to your point. It would absolutely, in my mind, make sense.

If a pharmacist is like, just so you know, I don't think this is very effective, you can try it. If it doesn't work, come back. We can try to find you some alternates. You can let the doctor know. But to not fill a prescription and you know, Rick, I had forgotten about your story with your dad uh, even as you were going through that and, and this is just a little bit that we know and recognizing, there's a lot we don't know. But, dad, as you pointed out early on, with the available data that is there now, showing that, even though ivermectin is not the silver bullet, Rick, as you mentioned, but it can be effective and has been effective for some people for pharmacists not to prescribe or not to fill what a doctor prescribed. That the data does show has been effective. In some cases it's again just mind boggling to me.

David Barton

The other thing that really struck me was I had no clue that we spent $11 billion trying to make people feel comfortable with untested medical procedures. I mean, this is early on, before we knew anything about COVID. Nobody had done testing on it yet it was brand new out of the Wuhan lab. We spent $11 dollars to make people feel comfortable with it. Are you kidding me? I mean, we can use that elsewhere. They shouldn't have been spending anyway. But that's just amazing. The propaganda use that they pull with that money. Well, and you know.

Tim Barton

Dad to this point, we have never been anti-vaccination people, generally speaking, but since COVID I am questioning all vaccines now, right. We're like, wait a second. Pfizer made how much money. So like, is it possible that some of these companies are in it for the money, not because there's actually medical benefit to this? Like I'm having to question so much right now? And I say that to point out where, when you have people doing very corrupt things for very selfish reasons and motivations, it can bring a lot of harm and damage to areas and other perspectives in that industry as well. So greatful for Dr. Bowden for all she is doing trying to help make a difference. And grateful for so many of those doctors out there who are still fighting back against this nonsense and really glad that some of these things in the FDA are coming down after all the nonsense has been up for so long.

Rick Green

Yeah I got to say, guys, I would love to know and maybe one day we will actually get good data. How much total was spent, not only on the propaganda, on the actual development of the vaccines? Right, because we paid for that too, with all the warp speed stuff. Everything was paid for by us, the taxpayers. So we paid for their product to be developed, we paid for it to be marketed, we paid for it to be distributed. How many lives were saved as a result or cost?

And then, when you look at overall all-cause mortality, how much worse was it during the worst parts of COVID than a regular flu year, versus how much more all-cause mortality once the vaccines were introduced? I'm just asking questions, but I would love to have data on all of that at some point. And then, what did it cost us to shut down the economy and shut down the world? Good questions to ask. We'll see if we can ever actually get real answers to any of them, but it's a great reminder that the federal government does not have all the answers and shouldn't even be doing a lot of the things that it's doing. Had we had 50 states doing different things, we could have learned from each other instead of the one size fits all, which is what the founders wanted us to stay away from. All right out of time for today. Folks, thanks for joining us. You've been listening to the WallBuilders Show.