Ruth Hovsepian (00:01.224)
Hello and welcome to Out of the Darkness. I'm your host Ruth Hovsepian and I'm so glad you're joining us today. We have a special episode for you as we dive into a topic that I have been really interested in. It affects all of us that go to church and that is our worship time, specifically worship music and its importance in our church life. I'm really excited to welcome Mackenzie Morgan to the show.
She is a recording artist and worship leader who grew up traveling across the country performing in various churches, on national television, and even at the White House. In 2021, she went viral on Facebook for a post about her convictions on worship music, which led her to start the Godly Whistleblower podcast. Welcome Mackenzie.
Mackenzie Morgan (00:55.018)
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Ruth Hovsepian (00:58.216)
Mackenzie, your Facebook post about worship music really got a lot of traction in 2021. And you emphasized in that post how important it is for worship songs to be rich in theology and come from a trustworthy source. This is such an important topic for the church today. So to kick things off, tell us what motivated you.
to write that post first of all, and why do you think your post resonated about worship music and it went viral in 2021?
Mackenzie Morgan (01:39.37)
Yeah, that's well, I honestly looking back, I see how God was, of course, he is so sovereign, but his hand was just guiding that post and me along in that season of my life when I was, you know, in the course of 2020 when everyone was dealing with the crazy times that we were living in, you know, who would have thought that something that
Ruth Hovsepian (02:00.776)
Mm.
Mackenzie Morgan (02:06.986)
something else aside from the world events that going on in everyone's life that the topic of worship music would be so heavy on my heart and that the Lord would be convicting me and molding the Holy Spirit would be molding me to have a heaviness in my heart and a desire to speak out about this topic. And so over the course of about a year and a half, maybe.
was fine tuning my beliefs, getting through COVID in 2020, and really studying and was diving into the word a lot during that time. And in 2021, I remember I had come home from work and I just felt convicted to share my thoughts on worship music and these questionable sources that we were.
that we are allowing into the church and through the music that we sing and offer as worship to God. And, you know, I wanted to share it on my personal Facebook with my personal family and friends and just share what was on my heart from a good place. I didn't want to start a war. I just wanted to start a conversation and thought maybe it would open up a dialogue.
with some of my worship leader friends on Facebook. And yeah, I had been crafting a note in my phone for about a couple weeks, because I really knew what I was going to say was going to be somewhat controversial, you know. So I really wanted to make sure I said it right and that I wasn't careless in anything I said or that anyone would take what I said the wrong way. So it took about a couple of weeks and really...
took the time to work out exactly what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. So yeah, I just shared it on a random Monday night and a really weird time to make a post and it just started going viral and it had like a few hundred shares. And I remember we had a friend over that evening and we were just all hanging out. I was not thinking anything about it really.
Mackenzie Morgan (04:29.258)
And my friend was looking at Facebook and he was like, Mackenzie, you're going viral on Facebook. And I was like, what? No, I'm not. He was like, yeah, you kind of are. I was like, let me see. And yeah, over the course of the next week or two, it just got thousands of shares. And I remember I saw some a post from some Christian news outlet that it had been probably viewed over five million times and.
I was just like, my lord, what is the Lord doing? Like, this is not what I was expecting at all. So that's kind of how that all happened and transpired.
Ruth Hovsepian (05:11.528)
And, you know, I went back. So when I was doing some research on, on this, this, I wanted to know what, what the reactions were. And it was quite mixed actually, right? You, you really poked the sleeping bear or, you know, woke something up in people and truth be told, this is something that has. That has had me thinking for several years.
Mackenzie Morgan (05:23.882)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (05:41.768)
And as closer I've gotten to the Lord and as my relationship with him has really deepened, I question a lot of things that we have done traditionally or we do without thinking. We do it because we've always done it that way or, you know, why change things if it's working, stuff like that. And I...
I'm of a different generation than you. I, and I come, I don't know what kind of church you attended or attend, but the church I grew up was very traditional. We sang from a hymn book on Sunday mornings. you know, if we had a Sunday evening worship service or midweek, we had maybe a chorus book, you know, very traditional. and.
Mackenzie Morgan (06:31.978)
Mm -hmm.
Ruth Hovsepian (06:35.56)
slowly, you know, we brought in newer songs, but no band, no nothing, just organ, piano, odd instrument. So it wasn't something I truly thought about back then. We didn't listen to certain types of music because of the music. Even, you know, Christian music where it was rock, you know, there's all types of Christian music.
We, we had a certain type of music we listened to, right or wrong. That's, that's another conversation that we can have. But as the mega churches have rolled in and we see that more in the U S than we do here in Canada, we have seen a shift in the way church services are. And if we were to cover how church services are completely, we'd be here for.
a lot of, a lot of days. So today we're looking at what worship in the context of music is. And I know we have taken it to the degree where we do not know what is right or wrong. We don't know what is right theologically or not. And I see it.
Mackenzie Morgan (07:35.274)
No.
Mackenzie Morgan (07:42.026)
Yes.
Mackenzie Morgan (07:53.097)
Mm -hmm.
Ruth Hovsepian (08:00.616)
at from my vantage point, and I'm not in the music industry as you are, and you write songs, so you're at a very different viewpoint. I'm the consumer, whether it's what I consume online or whether what I consume in my church. I'm the consumer. But it goes back to something that I have been pushing now for several years, and that is you need to get into the word of God for yourself.
read the word of God and understand what the Bible is saying so that if a pastor, if a leader, or in this case, a worship song has words in it that do not go along the teachings of what the word of God is, you will be alert to it and see it. But it's hard.
When you have popular churches around the world pushing certain types of worship songs, what do we do? How do we deal with it? How do we unpack this? How do we, as a church, say,
What is right? What is wrong? Who is responsible for that? What's your take on this? Let's unpack it first of all. How did we get to this point, Mackenzie? How did we get to the point where theologically the songs we sing in church are questionable?
Mackenzie Morgan (09:39.146)
Yeah, that's a really good, really big question. And I think this is something that, like you said, is so rooted in tradition. And I believe that in the 70s and 80s, there was the influx of Christian television with TBN and the 700 Club and all these different programs.
Ruth Hovsepian (09:42.76)
Mmm.
Mackenzie Morgan (10:07.274)
that were very monumental in launching really mainstream Christianity to a whole new height and level of marketability and really like getting in in people's televisions, like getting it into their homes and started the whole prosperity gospel movement and a lot of word of faith teachers came out of that time era.
Ruth Hovsepian (10:24.648)
Mm.
Mackenzie Morgan (10:35.498)
And they're really, that was a big push to the worship music side of things with, you know, I mean, Hillsong has been around, I don't know the exact number of years Hillsong has been around, but you know, 30 some years, you know, I'm sure by now. So they are really one of those pillar foundational movements that happened during that time. And it's something that everyone is so used to now with the whole mega church.
Ruth Hovsepian (10:48.808)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (11:04.97)
atmosphere and every church is not every church but so many churches especially here in the Bible Belt in the south in the states they all they look so much alike when they're that you know maybe non -denom like you know like the logo even looks the same on the church like they all have a coffee bar you know it's just I'm not trying to hate on that but like that certain look you typically know what to expect and it's just so widely accepted.
it and it's just like what's considered normal and what people just know to expect church to be like. And the worship music looks a lot the same as well in all those types of settings of churches. And so we're so steeped in the tradition of that, but it's honestly such a new tradition because I know that people would think of like the 70s and 80s as very ancient now, but
Ruth Hovsepian (11:36.936)
Mm.
Mackenzie Morgan (12:01.354)
But it's really not. That's really a very, that's when you look at the whole course of history and of worship music specifically, like that's a very new concept to have even the name worship leader. Like that's not even in the Bible. Yeah. So it's, it's a very new thing, but we're already so steeped in the tradition of.
Ruth Hovsepian (12:03.144)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (12:20.232)
Yeah, I agree with you on that. Yes. Yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (12:30.794)
that this is just what we sing and this is what's accepted and this is what's good and we just don't bat an eye at any of it. And I think it's a lot to do with, you know, the, the, you know, technical, technological side of this whole new age that we are living in with the rise from the seventies and eighties of getting, you know, like, like,
TV preachers, you know, and everything that came along with that. So, but there is also good to technology as well, I believe. But I think that has really catapulted it as well to be this whole marketed idea of what a worship leader looks like, what a spirit -filled church looks like, and what music should be in church, and what worship should be in church. And I think it's honestly, some of it is...
Ruth Hovsepian (12:59.4)
Yes.
Mackenzie Morgan (13:27.914)
Some of it is still been preserved, you know, of course, but a lot of it is fabricated. And I think a lot of it is this ideal and this idea that people have about church and about what worship is that's maybe stemmed from something that doesn't have any foundational aspect to it at all. Like it's not, my point is, is that it's not rooted in the word of God, but rooted in traditions of man.
Ruth Hovsepian (13:48.808)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (13:56.458)
and what man has created in these few decades, several decades we've had so far. And it's changed the course of a lot of people's idea of what even worship is. Because people do think of worship as specifically music related and they don't think about prayer, how prayer is worship, how we live our lives is supposed to be a pleasing worship to the Lord. There are so many things that make up what worship is. It's not.
Ruth Hovsepian (14:13.704)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (14:20.648)
Yes.
Mackenzie Morgan (14:25.482)
music, but when people think we're going to go to church to worship, they think we're going to go to church to sing today. And that's all they think about. A lot of people, not everybody, but yeah, so.
Ruth Hovsepian (14:35.592)
Yeah. And the other thing that comes along with that is idolizing our worship leaders, our worship leaders. Let me do the air. Thanks. Yeah. Worship leaders, right? We're idolizing them just as we've gotten to the point where, again, we're kind of generalizing. It's not everybody. I want, you know, our, our, you know, the, the audience to understand we're not saying every church is this way, not every church that says.
Mackenzie Morgan (14:47.018)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (15:03.752)
You know, we're gonna spend time in worship. We're talking about the ones that are questionable We are idolizing first of all our worship leaders They've become entities of their own and they do no wrong or no, right? It has become the same way with our pastors where we idolize them and we we will want to attend a specific church Not because of the doctrine or what we are learning
But because of who is leading worship or, or the pastor, all of these things, again, there is nothing wrong with having a pastor that speaks well and, you know, draws people in, but it is when we start to worship them per se, you know, when, when that becomes our, our focus. And I agree with you about worship. Worship is not that.
that concert, and I know I annoy people when I say that, but the concert portion of the church service, because if I cannot hear myself sing, this is me because I'm aging myself, Mackenzie. If I can't hear myself sing, I need the earplugs to hear myself. But if I can't hear myself worship, if I do not hear my neighbor worship,
I don't feel as though I am part of that worship service. I love a good concert. I love turning on music and listening on it so loud that my children, when they lived at home would complain, mom, please lower your music. You know, I'm all for it. There's a time and place when I worship at home alone, it's different. But when we're, when we're worshiping collectively,
Mackenzie Morgan (16:50.026)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (17:03.304)
I don't need a concert unless I'm going to a concert, right? So what should we look at? What should be our criteria to determine whether worship music is theologically sound and suitable for a church service?
Mackenzie Morgan (17:07.786)
Yeah.
Right.
Mackenzie Morgan (17:30.922)
Yeah, that's a really good question too. I think it all goes back to scripture and scripture alone as the foundation of our worship and with the music that we sing, you know, it all should be edifying to the body and it should all be pointing to not ourselves. A lot of worship, a lot of modern worship songs are worshiping ourselves.
and it becomes a form of self -idolatry because it's like we are worshipping with a lot of these modern worship songs specifically in the lyrics when you really like look at them. It's very deceiving because yes, they're technically focusing on the Lord's presence maybe as a topic or the blessings of the Lord. But when that's all you sing and that's every when that's just every song.
and that theme is the only theme that the body is receiving, they're going to start looking to the Lord as like a puppet or a genie, a magical genie that's going to, that we just worship the Lord to get something from him. And that's not worship at all. That's only worshiping ourselves. So, you know, I'm not someone that thinks every worship song is full of like, you know, heresy or whatever. But I think that there's...
Ruth Hovsepian (18:36.776)
Hmm.
Mackenzie Morgan (18:56.394)
I think it's very evident when you put all of the puzzle pieces together that our focus is completely off as a society, as a collective whole. I think that a lot of the modern worship songs and just, you know, like going back to the idea of what worship is, when you put it all together, you see our focus is completely off here. So when you have, say, you know, three to five worship songs, or...
Ruth Hovsepian (19:13.992)
Mm -hmm.
Ruth Hovsepian (19:19.624)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (19:25.002)
songs, you know, during your church service, during your worship service, you know, they need to be pointing to Christ and sharing the gospel, sharing the gospel truth within the lyrics. And just as scripture says, you know, we are to have Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and also sing unto the Lord a new song, you know. So all of these are really are like pillars that we should be.
Ruth Hovsepian (19:45.128)
and.
Yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (19:53.29)
as music directors and the pastors of these of our churches should be looking for and These pillars that they should be placing within the music portion of the service as What God has prescribed and how he wants to be worshipped, you know?
Ruth Hovsepian (20:13.512)
Right. And that's the key, right? It's worship. We're worshiping Him. We're, we're lifting up His holiness, His glory, His, we're worshiping Him. And I agree with you. Sometimes the words that I see, it is about me as a, you know, as, maybe a sinner coming to the Lord, which is great. You know, I, I love those songs too, because they verbalize my journey.
Mackenzie Morgan (20:16.81)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (20:43.592)
You know, to, to redemption. So I'm all for, I don't disagree with them, but when I want to worship him and he is the king of Kings and the Lord of Lords, right. And, and we, we've, we're kind of losing that. We're starting to go to, as you said, all about me, the me generation, you know, the older generation always says that, but it's true. We're seeing it, right. We were losing the fact that we are there.
Mackenzie Morgan (20:55.498)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (21:14.112)
to bow down and worship him.
Mackenzie Morgan (21:19.242)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the whole meaning of the word worship, you know, like, so it's not about, you know, our desires and it's it's literally about laying down your desires and getting over what you want, essentially, and magnifying the Lord and what he wants. So and that's just a topic that's not as trendy, you know, as for today.
Ruth Hovsepian (21:20.264)
Yeah, I think that.
Exactly, exactly.
Ruth Hovsepian (21:38.184)
Right.
Ruth Hovsepian (21:42.792)
No, honestly though, Mackenzie, anytime you question anything that happens in the church, it's not a topic that people want to discuss because again, you don't question. But if you are walking with the Lord and the Holy Spirit is in, you know, you're in the presence of the Holy Spirit, you will be convicted of these things and you will question. Now, on the other hand,
Are the worship leaders or those there's no other way to describe it at the moment. So let's use the worship leaders. What is the role that they play in guiding the musical choices of a church? Is it only up to them? Is a pastor responsible? Are the elders and deacons, are the members responsible? Like what is happening out there? You have a better.
you know, viewpoint of what is happening. How do you see what's happening?
Mackenzie Morgan (22:47.242)
Yeah, ultimately, you know, the pastors and elders are over, you know, the body over the congregation and are leading and directing and guiding the flock. And I like to use the term music director, which that because that's technically it fits the job description a lot more because there is someone who is leading the decisions in just.
Ruth Hovsepian (23:08.616)
Hmm.
Mackenzie Morgan (23:13.866)
not the overall decisions because I think the pat - you know, scripturally the pastor is supposed to have the authority in what is going on and the elders, you know, of the church. But, you know, they are to - there is usually someone who fits a music director role who has the knowledge of - of the logistics of music and music theory and knows the ins and outs of how to structure a set list.
or a song selection and they're just good at that. So they delegate those tasks usually to a specific person who would fit the role of a music director and they do their job to the best of their ability. You know, when I've done this role, you know, it goes into kind of what I said, looking at the pillars of picking songs, certain songs and hymns and...
spiritual songs that are edifying to the body, going along with the theme of what the pastor is talking about and also responding to the pastor's wishes, because a pastor might suggest that we do a certain song or something like that. So, you know, being under still that leadership, but using their own leadership to work through more like the logistic side of things and...
and using their knowledge and music to direct the set list to be structured in a certain way that's going to be, you know, beautiful and a great song selection for whatever the sermon is, whatever the topic is that the church is going through in scripture. So certain things like that. There's a lot of technicalities to it, you know, but ultimately as a...
Ruth Hovsepian (25:06.12)
Mm -hmm.
Mackenzie Morgan (25:09.514)
you know, as for every role in the church, whether it's the music or the, you know, other staff of the many different roles and jobs there is to working at a church and being a part of a church, you know, the pastor and the elders are over all of it and should be involved. You know, a pastor should definitely care about the music that's being sung. And it's not just like you have free reign over here and this person has free reign over here, you know, and we,
Ruth Hovsepian (25:27.336)
Mm -hmm.
Mackenzie Morgan (25:39.21)
you can get into church structure and that whole conversation, but how it's supposed to work is that you're collectively, everybody's under the pastor and elders and deacons and so on. And you try to do your job to the best of your ability and accommodate to the pastor's requests and everyone works together as a team.
Ruth Hovsepian (25:52.392)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (26:01.896)
Right. And I recently had a conversation about this and the, the person said to me, but what do you expect me to do now? Not listen because we were talking about theologically sound music. If not in the church setting, also in our personal lives, right? Because that is just as important. I, you know, look, I, I listened to all kinds of music.
I love it. Music touches my soul. I cry listening to certain types of music. It just touches me. I'm that person. And they said to me, well, what do you want me to do? Just not listen to a whole, you know, like the radio or a whole, you know, like a record. Again, aging myself, you know, like a playlist, whatever it was that you listen to because that...
Mackenzie Morgan (26:39.562)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (26:59.656)
songwriter or for example, we were talking about Hillsong because there has been controversy. There has been this. That's a hard one to answer that. That is really hard because you know, in a way we all do wrong. We all have a past. How do you, you know, as someone who could be a music director, you know, either yourself or someone else out there who is.
Mackenzie Morgan (27:10.058)
Mm -hmm.
Ruth Hovsepian (27:30.632)
How do you answer that question very simply? But how do you, you know, like, what is your way of dealing with that? Because that's a whole lot of songs out there that you would kind of like, okay, delete, delete, delete. What happens?
Mackenzie Morgan (27:46.186)
Yeah, yeah, it's a very common complaint of just because you have a problem with this. Yeah, I'll you know, it's not a small category. It's a large category because then it's it's like basically throwing away, you know, this very broad, large category of music that is new, that everyone knows, and it's very prominent. So it's a big deal. You know, I get it. But.
Ruth Hovsepian (27:58.216)
Right.
Ruth Hovsepian (28:07.528)
Right?
Mackenzie Morgan (28:14.634)
Everyone seems to be very dramatic and goes to this big extreme of, so you just want everyone to be perfect. Like no one's perfect, you know, blah, blah, blah. Like David, David committed adultery and he sinned and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, but there's a big difference between David and, you know, certain questionable and even dangerous sources of today is that David repented.
Ruth Hovsepian (28:22.12)
Mmm.
Ruth Hovsepian (28:39.144)
Yes.
Yes. Right. 100%. I agree with you. 100%. You nailed it. He repented. Let's just leave it there.
Mackenzie Morgan (28:44.426)
So...
Yeah, so yeah, I'm like, you know, we're not searching for perfection. We're searching for authentic worship and people who the fruit of their, their fruit is not questionable.
Ruth Hovsepian (28:55.4)
Yes.
Ruth Hovsepian (28:59.784)
Yes.
Ruth Hovsepian (29:04.968)
Yes.
And I have to, sorry, I'm going to interject here. I'm not picking only on the songs of the last 30 years. I see older hymns that like the funniest one is the, what is it? The, the song of the three wise men. There weren't three wise men, you know, if you look at it. So if you, we three Kings of orient art, that, that, that too, you know, we, there are songs that are questionable in our hymn books as well. And I know.
We wouldn't sing certain songs because of questionable lyrics. So I just wanted to put it, put that out there. It's not that they were perfect when they wrote the songs 50 plus years ago. It's just, it's a lot more prevalent right now. Sorry. I just needed to put that out there as well.
Mackenzie Morgan (29:43.242)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (29:55.37)
Yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah, it's like people think that you just hate that people like, I guess in my camp, like that I just hate like new things, you know, it's like, no, there's a lot of new things that are actually really good. It can be any song, you know, it's any song of.
Ruth Hovsepian (30:06.888)
No, no.
Right.
Mackenzie Morgan (30:16.234)
If it's got questionable lyrics, it doesn't matter if it was written 100 years ago or if it was written yesterday. You know, if it's questionable, it's questionable. It doesn't really matter that it's new, but you know, it's a newer issue of today. So it's mostly in newer music, but you know, it doesn't have to be. Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (30:21.704)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (30:25.896)
Right.
Ruth Hovsepian (30:31.624)
Yeah.
Now, so what's your advice, you know, to someone who is in the role or me, you know, I'm sitting in the pew or chair in the church, what is your advice to us about being discerning about what we consume?
Mackenzie Morgan (30:51.722)
Yeah, well going back to scripture, our discernment comes from the Holy Spirit and scripture tells us to actively work out our discernment, work on our discernment and pray to the Lord for discernment. So by being in the Word, by being in prayer, you know, building ourselves up and learning things to look out for and if you're in the Word and you're studying about who God is and studying
Ruth Hovsepian (31:04.808)
Mmm.
Mackenzie Morgan (31:21.514)
You don't have to just study about worship, but just seeking the Lord. You're going to be able to sharpen your discernment to be able to pick up on the red flags of things that, you know, like that is not the gospel. Like that is not scriptural or that's just an error. That's just not correct. And you'll be able to pick up on, this is a red flag. I think like this doesn't really sound right. Let me go back to.
Ruth Hovsepian (31:31.176)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (31:46.666)
this passage, let me go back to scripture and see what and compare and contrast and see what is actually the truth because you know, it's it's an easy answer like just go to scripture. But I mean, it's the only it's the only one really, because that's just the foundation for everything. It's not due to like my own ideas or someone else's own ideas of, this is something you should stay away from, you know, like based on my own made up standard. It's
Ruth Hovsepian (31:54.344)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (32:03.432)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (32:15.018)
Scripture alone is the standard, you know, God is God's Word is the standard. So by being in the Word, that's how you're going to be able to know the Word and be able to know truth from error. And it's a good protection device, you know, the Word. So then we can carry that into really every area of our lives. So it's only going to make you better.
Ruth Hovsepian (32:16.456)
Right.
Ruth Hovsepian (32:34.344)
Yes, I agree, yeah.
Mackenzie Morgan (32:43.018)
and help you able to, you know, getting into these more, you know, harder to distinguish, you know, from maybe a worship song, like, well, is it saying this or is it not? Is this actually correct? Is it not? Or, you know, by being more in the word, you're going to be able to know more of the finer details of those certain things. And not everyone is going to have the same exact conclusions, you know, but what matters is that.
Ruth Hovsepian (33:02.568)
Right.
Ruth Hovsepian (33:09.544)
Right?
Mackenzie Morgan (33:13.034)
we are at least trying and striving to be as authentic and correct in our worship as possible because, you know, the Lord at least deserves that and not to be so flippant about something that's just so important. So.
Ruth Hovsepian (33:15.592)
Yeah.
Ruth Hovsepian (33:30.44)
Amen. Mackenzie, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us today. It's clear that the quality and theology of our worship music are vital for nurturing our faith and church communities. And for our listeners, I hope this conversation has given you some valuable insights. Before we wrap up, I want to remind everyone to subscribe to Out of the Darkness so you never miss an episode.
You can find us on all major podcast platforms and be sure to check out Mackenzie's podcast, Godly Whistleblower, for more deep and thought provoking discussions. Thank you for tuning in. Until next time, stay blessed and keep shining your light.
Ruth Hovsepian (34:18.856)
Thank you, Mackay.
