The Knowledge Barrier: False Beliefs and The Power of Perception

If high prices and charging concerns are holding you back from buying electric, fear not! They may not be as bad as they seem. I talk with CEO of Plug'nDrive Cara Clairman; we cover the biggest (perceived) barriers to EV adoption and how self-image influences our car purchases. 


To Learn More...
Want to find out Who Killed the Electric Car? You can watch the documentary online here. 

Live in British Columbia? Use this fuel savings calculator to see how much you could save in fuel by switching to an EV. Fuel Savings Calculator

More curious about the Levelized Cost of Driving? Learn more about it here. Or compare yearly total driving costs of different vehicles and in different provinces with CAA’s Driving costs calculator. CAA Car Costs

Live in the GTA and want to test drive an EV? Check out Plug N’ Drive to book a test drive today!

If you want to read the fully cited copy of this transcript, you can download it here

I recorded this podcast from Toronto, Ontario on land that is the ancestral territory of the Anishinaabek, Chippewas, Haudenosaunee, Wendat, and Mississaugas of the Credit First Nations and is covered by Treaty 13 and the Williams Treaties.  Learn more about the treaties that cover the land you’re on and the original stewards and inhabitants of those lands by visiting www.native-land.ca

Transcript

This is Sparking The Transition, the podcast that examines the barriers and solutions, to electric vehicle adoption in Canada. 

Hi Folks, Welcome to Sparking the Transition. I’m your host, Lucas Porter; I’m glad to have you here. 

My first exposure to electric vehicles came way back in 2006. I was in high school, and a new documentary had just come out. 

Narrator: “In 1996, electric cars began to appear on roads all over California. They were quiet and fast, produced no exhaust, and ran without gasoline. Ten years later, these cars were destroyed. What happened? Why should we be haunted by the ghost of the electric car?”

The film Who Killed the Electric Car was a post-mortem of sorts on why exactly a mid- ‘90s push for vehicle electrification had fizzled out. Not even old enough to drive, I was nonetheless filled with righteous anger that I would never get the chance to help the planet by getting to drive one of these funny-looking, environmentally-friendly cars.      

The film played up the environmental benefits of the EVs, but in reality, these early models were fairly underpowered, with a range of between 90 to 120 km, and a theoretical top speed of quote “above 80mph” . At a time of high gas prices and an uncertain supply, this film captured public attention and was the first point of exposure many people had to these futuristic cars. Unfortunately, this early exposure to EVs from the dawn of a new millennia is where most people’s experience of EVs ends as well. After disappearing from showrooms and the public consciousness for over a decade, electric vehicles are back in a big way. But many of our ideas about what these cars are, and what they can do, haven’t evolved past these early models.  

Today, I’m going to set the record straight. I’ll be tackling some of the biggest myths, misconceptions, and misplaced fears of modern consumers. Range anxiety and sticker shock are huge deterrents to the EV-curious, but are they as bad as they seem? I dive into what holds people back from buying an EV and talk about the overt and subconscious factors that shape our purchasing decisions. You’ll also hear my conversation with the founder and CEO of Plug N’ Drive, Cara Clairman. 

Cara: “You just can’t imagine driving for so little money.” 

Cara and I talk about how to get people behind the wheel, the future of fueling, and what excites us most about modern EVs. Ditch your preconceived notions at the door and let’s dive in!

What’s the first thing that comes to mind when I say, “The main benefit of electric vehicles is __________”? I’m guessing your mind went to the environmental benefits or fighting climate change, right? Mine would have too. Now, when you think about buying an EV, (if you’re listening to this, I’m taking the leap and assuming that the thought has at least crossed your mind), what are the barriers that make you question whether it’s the right decision? I’m guessing you might be asking questions like 

“Can I afford it?” “Where will I charge it?” What will I do if I want to go somewhere new or remote?” 

As much as we want to help the planet and fight climate change – and I believe that we do – we’re not very likely to choose a car that does that if it means higher costs and lower performance and reliability, especially for something most people use every day. Environmental concern is an important precondition for buying an EV, especially for early adopters, but studies have consistently shown that sustainability ranks lower than both cost and performance when considering a new vehicle purchase. 

Instead of coming at this decision from a mindset of ‘why should I choose an EV?”, instead ask yourself “why wouldn’t an EV work for me? Think critically and honestly about what challenges might arise and then how they could be overcome.

For many people, purchasing price and a vehicle’s range (which can also be expressed as a concern for a lack of charging infrastructure) are the two most common barriers to buying an EV. My interview with Ben in the last episode bore out that conclusion as well; the high price was a major deterrent to him, despite the environmental benefits. You might have come to the same conclusion for yourself. Intuitively, that makes a lot of sense. You probably wouldn’t buy a washing machine that cost more and wasn’t as good at cleaning your clothes, just because it used less water per load. This tension – do you sacrifice performance, convenience, and low purchasing cost to help fight climate change - is at the heart of many consumers’ thought processes when they consider buying an EV. But that framing is misguided. The EVs available today aren’t the same as the ones so publicly mourned in Who Killed the Electric Car, with limited range and high cost of ownership. Moderns EVs are technological marvels with the specs to rival most conventional cars, and in some instances, surpass them. 

The problem with modern electric vehicles isn’t so much one of technology or even price, it’s a problem of perception. Studies have shown that a lack of knowledge of EVs is a major deterrent and that a majority of people surveyed held false beliefs about EVs. Over 50% of respondents overestimated their maintenance and operating costs, and a third of respondents underestimated their range. Now, I’m not saying that vehicle costs and driving range shouldn’t be concerns for EV-curious consumers. EVs typically do have a higher sticker price than conventional vehicles with similar capabilities, and there are still far more gas stations than public charging stations in Canada. But looking at EVs this way is to look at them as if they were conventional vehicles, which they are not. 

How likely you are to buy something depends on your predisposition toward it, which in turn depends on your experience with it. If your only exposure to EVs is from discussions with friends who were dismissive of their range or from TV shows mocking their capabilities, you’re probably going to believe they’re underpowered, overpriced, and inferior to the gas vehicles you’ve had your whole life to become familiar with. Education is key to changing people’s minds about EVs. That pretty much goes without saying right? But it’s often easier said than done. Part of the reason we don’t have better information about EVs is that it isn’t always clear who should take the lead in educating the public. If the information isn’t coming to us, where should we go looking? More to the point, why should we even bother going to the trouble of researching EVs if they’re different from what we’re familiar with and if we’ve only heard negative things about them? Well, you’ve decided to tune into this podcast so perhaps I’m preaching to the converted, but I believe that this is the mindset of many consumers who don’t give EVs a fair shake when considering a new car. 

Part of the problem is how the information is being framed in our minds. We’re evaluating EVs using the same standards that we do for conventional vehicles. We look at the sticker price of an electric car and how far it can go with the equivalent of a “whole tank” and compare those numbers to the cost and range of conventional vehicles. If you’ve always had a conventional vehicle, defaulting to these metrics to evaluate a new car makes sense. They’ve become easy shorthand to compare conventional vehicles because they all operate the same way. But electric vehicles don’t. And these quick and easy metrics don’t capture the realities of EV ownership. As we shift from conventional vehicles, so too must we shift our methods of evaluation.    

Consider the sticker price. EVs still cost more than a comparable conventional vehicle. That’s exactly why there are provincial and federal purchase rebates. Even after you factor those in, EVs still usually cost more. From that perspective, EVs don’t seem like a good deal, but cars and trucks cost more than their sticker price, and basing a decision solely on the MSRP doesn’t take into account operating expenses like maintenance and fueling costs. Fueling costs can really change the equation, especially with the federal government’s increasing price of carbon. Let’s look at the cost of fuel in BC for instance, a place with high gas prices and low electricity rates. BC Hydro, the main electricity provider for British Columbia, estimates that if you drive 20,000 km a year within the province, it will cost you over $3,300 in gas for a conventional crossover SUV. But in a Chevy Bolt EV? Your yearly electricity fueling bill comes to only $475. Though electricity rates vary across the country, it’s always much cheaper to fuel your vehicle with electricity than gasoline or diesel. 

Looking at lifetime fuel costs, EVs start to look more affordable. But neither MSRP nor fueling costs give you a good way to compare the total lifetime costs of a vehicle. A more accurate way to estimate and compare how much a vehicle will cost over its lifetime is a metric known as the levelized cost of driving or LCOD. It factors in the purchase price, and lifetime fuel and maintenance costs, using an assumed average driving distance per year. Taking these factors into account, the LCOD calculates the cost of driving the vehicle one kilometer, averaged out over the vehicle’s lifetime. Canada’s Energy Regulator has a handy tool to give you a rough idea of what the levelized cost of driving will be for different vehicle types in different provinces. In BC, they estimate the LCOD for both an electric car and truck comes in as slightly cheaper than for conventional vehicles. For cars, it works out to 33 cents per kilometer for an EV compared to 35 cents for a conventional vehicle. For trucks, it’s 44 cents compared to 45. But as time goes on, there is a clear trend: the levelized cost of driving an EV continues to decrease, while conventional vehicle costs remain unchanged. It can be harder to calculate a levelized cost of driving for a vehicle as it has to make assumptions about future fuel costs, and how much you’ll drive the vehicle over its lifetime. Thankfully, you don’t have to figure this out by yourself. CAA has a handy calculator for estimating total annual driving costs, and you can compare the costs of different vehicles in different provinces. I’ve included a link to their calculator in the show notes.  

Even bigger than cost is the issue of range. Concerns regarding underdeveloped or inconveniently placed charging infrastructure, and the maximum driving range on a full charge is the most cited barrier of EV hesitant consumers. It’s completely understandable to have concerns about keeping your vehicle fueled in a reliable and convenient way. But as with other aspects of EVs, we can’t look at the question of range and fueling through the lens of conventional vehicles. How far you can go before your battery runs out isn’t nearly as big of an issue as it’s perceived to be. When we think about the range of a conventional vehicle, what we’re really asking is how long can I go before I need to find a gas station. Because if you’re like me, you drive your car to near empty, then fill it back up to full. It’s more convenient to make fewer trips to a gas station because getting gas is an errand all to itself. We don’t need to keep those same fueling habits with an EV, and I would argue that we should actively work to break those thought patterns. EVs are changing the game when it comes to how and where we fuel up. It takes a lot longer to charge an EV than to fill a gas tank, so instead of making a stop just to fill your car, you’ll likely incorporate the task into other errands or events in your day. Does your local mall, grocery store, sports arena, or public parking garage have EV chargers? Does your workplace parking lot have chargers? You can set it and forget it while running errands or going to work and come back to a car that’s ready to go. And you won’t need to charge it every time you go someplace with chargers. Think about how far you drive in an average week and then look at the range of some of the EVs you’ve been looking at. How often will you go through a full charge, and how many opportunities can you find over the course of the week to plug in somewhere, even if only for an hour or two? In places that invest in charging infrastructure, keeping your EV filled could be as easy as parking in a different parking spot. EV chargers aren’t as flashing or obvious as gas stations are, but if you start looking for them, I’ll bet you’ll start to notice more of them. 

Now, I’m not saying there aren’t challenges to charging your EV. I’m fortunate enough to live in Toronto where there’s more charging infrastructure than in many other places across the country, and there still isn’t enough. Public charging infrastructure still has a way to go, and we’ll look at that in depth in a future episode. But there’s a big piece of the EV charging puzzle that’s often forgotten about. For most people, public charging will be seen as a convenient top-up or offered as a free perk, used to entice you to shop somewhere. Most people, especially those who live in single detached houses, can do almost all their charging at home. You can’t get a gas pump installed in your driveway, but you can certainly connect a charger to your home’s electrical panel. Overnight charging at home will be where most of us eventually fuel our cars, without ever having to think about how to incorporate a charging stop into our week. Imagine getting home and plugging in your car (just like you’d lock your doors), and then coming out to a full battery in the morning. Home chargers are widely available and increasingly common. In fact, some car manufacturers like Chevy are offering to cover the costs of installing a home charger with the purchase of a new electric vehicle. 

Concerns about range and charging have also been shown to greatly diminish or vanish entirely after owning an EV for only a few weeks. Surveys have shown that EV owners are much less concerned about range and opportunities to charge their cars than those who have not bought one yet. The specter of a dead battery looks a lot scarier from far away. If you want some firsthand experience without the commitment of buying a car, there are companies that rent EVs for anywhere from a weekend to a month. If you’re concerned about the reliability and convenience of owning an EV, why not try renting one to see what it’s like? You might find that it’s not for you, but I’m willing to bet that some experience and exposure will show you that fueling an EV isn’t as inconvenient or worrisome as you might have thought.  

Thankfully, there are signs that perceptions of EVs and their reliability are beginning to change. A recent study out of Australia in 2019 found that over 50% of Generation Y (A.K.A. millennials) perceived EVs to have higher energy efficiency and lower operation and maintenance costs than conventional vehicles. The study also found that only about 15 percent of respondents disagreed that EVs were more reliable for daily commuting and road trips. The study found similar results for Gen Xers, and Gen Zs, illustrating that perceptions of EV capabilities are changing across the generations. 

Whether you’re charged up for EVs and can’t wait to get behind the wheel, or you still have some healthy skepticism about whether an EV is right for you, I’m guessing your opinions have changed at least somewhat since you first heard about electric vehicles. Do you remember what or who helped shift those thoughts and opinions? It could be that you’ve looked over the data and the numbers and made a purely logical decision about the benefit of an EV, but I’m guessing it was a friend who gave you a ride, or a family member who spoke favourably of them, or the amount of attention they’ve gotten in the news lately that made you think more critically about whether something electric would be right for you. For me, that moment came when I got the chance to drive my friend’s Tesla. The idea of owning an EV was never something that I seriously considered, despite being very much in favour of them, theoretically. It was only once I experienced how much fun they were to drive, and how much my friend enjoyed having one, that I seriously began to think about owning one myself. Suddenly, it seemed possible. More than that, it seemed like the only logical choice for a self-described environmentalist. Subjective experiences have huge power to colour our perceptions and shape our choices. We look to the experiences we’ve had, the opinions of those we trust, and our understanding of the world to make decisions. That’s why, as important as it is to do your homework and understand the numbers, it might be something as simple as a conversation with a friend that finally moves the needle.

 My abrupt change in attitude after getting behind the wheel is far from unique. Taking a ride in, or a test-drive of, an EV can make the idea of owning one a lot more approachable. The saying “you don’t know until you try” is about as old as they get, and it’s as true for EVs as it is for just about anything else. But if for some reason, folky expressions aren’t what you base your car purchases on, you’ll be happy to know that research also backs up the assertion that taking a test drive might be the fastest way to change your mind. Studies have shown that hands-on experiences with EVs are highly influential in creating positive perceptions of them. If you have a chance to take an EV for a spin, I highly recommend taking it. You might start to see yourself as someone who drives one every day. 

In fact, seeing yourself as an EV owner is a crucial part of the process. Researchers will often ask people what holds them back from driving an EV. As we’ve discussed, they’re most likely to say the purchase price or the potential difficulties charging are what stop them from choosing one. What they’re probably not going to say is that they’ve never thought of themselves as an EV driver because that doesn’t fit in with their persona – the image of themselves they have in their head. Early adopters of plug-in hybrids and EVs were much more likely to identify with having either an environmentally or technologically oriented lifestyle. For them, buying an EV was consistent with either how they saw themselves, or how they wanted to world to see them. 

Take a second to think about how others see you. Or how you see yourself. What words or qualities come to mind? Does driving an EV align with this identity? When we think about buying a new car, we consider all kinds of questions: How fast can it go, how does it impact the planet, what brand is it?... But the importance of the answers is subjective because they’re filtered through the lens of our self-identity. Whereas one person may be brand loyal to Honda for its safety ratings, another might put acceleration or a good stereo system as their top priority. We need good information to make good decisions, but how we see ourselves will determine how we interpret that information. If you don’t see yourself as someone who drives an EV, it doesn’t matter how good it is for the planet or what trim level it has, you’re not going to choose it. Or put a different way, a lot of people see their cars as status symbols. If their view of EVs is that they are inferior to conventional vehicles in some way, then they’re likely going to put that consideration above any benefit an electric car might have. If you see your car as an extension of your personality, then what car you choose is going to be based on keeping that image consistent. 

Interestingly, studies have found evidence that masculinity is associated with caring less about the environment because doing so is seen as feminine. So, because of the obvious link between EVs and the environment, those who perceive themselves to be very masculine are less likely to drive an EV. Of course, masculinity is just one personality trait and isn’t the sole determining factor in what sort of vehicle a person will choose. But these findings help illustrate my point. If you have never pictured yourself driving an EV, it might be because driving an EV and what that says about you, doesn’t fit into the self-identity you’ve constructed.

Earlier, I mentioned how other people’s opinions can influence our purchasing decisions. The societal pressure to fit in and keep up with the Joneses is a powerful force. What we see others driving influences our purchases. Social norms and networks can be important influencing factors when it comes to changing opinions on EVs. Our perceptions and thoughts are not static, we’re highly influenced by those around us and our perception of new products evolves, in part, through the social interactions we have every day. Those who own electric vehicles often speak highly of them and recommend them to others. Seeing other people drive EVs and hearing them talk positively about the experience can demystify a new technology and make it more approachable.

If you know someone who owns an EV, your first step should be to talk with them and ask what it’s like to own one. Talk to them about your concerns and ask whether they were worried about similar issues. Do they still have issues with an aspect of EV ownership, or were their fears misplaced? The internet can be a great resource for reviews, analysis, and car specs, but one good conversation goes a long way and you’re likely going to give a lot more weight to the experiences and opinions of those you know. Positive interactions and better information are great ways to address peoples’ concerns about EVs. 

Of course, there are still barriers and difficulties to a transition to electric vehicles. But finding solutions to issues like vehicle supply and charging infrastructure density will be a lot easier if everyone is in favour of this new technology. 

You’re about to hear my interview with Cara Clairman. Cara is a longtime EV proponent and has a wealth of knowledge and experience when it comes to misinformation, changing people’s minds, and getting people behind the wheel. Cara is the President and CEO of the Ontario-based non-profit Plug n’ Drive and I’ll let her explain for herself what that entails. 

Lucas: Cara, in your own words, would you mind telling us what the center is and what it does?

Cara: So Plug’nDrive is a nonprofit. We're all about accelerating EV adoption, and we do this mostly through education and outreach, which includes a bricks and mortar type of facility where you can come and test drive all the latest makes and models with no pressure to buy anything, as well as a bunch of mobile opportunities to test drive vehicles in your own community.

Lucas: You've been doing this since Plug’nDrive’s inception in 2011. So what inspired you to make this kind of your life and career’s work?

Cara: Well, prior to starting Plug‘nDrive, I worked at Ontario Power Generation and so that's a large utility, and there I was, the Vice President of Sustainable development. And so my job really was looking out for the environmental performance of the company. It was probably around 2008 or so, and we had just gotten off coal plants. We were shutting down coal as part of OPG's operations, and so suddenly our electricity mix was extremely clean. It was almost, I mean, nothing is zero emitting, but it was very low greenhouse gas emissions because mostly nuclear, hydro and some wind and a bit of solar. So, you know, then I heard that the cars were coming. That's when we started hearing about them in the late 2008, 2009. And it just made so much sense to me that with that low emitting electricity, if we could get those cars plugged into that grid, that we would be able to really reduce emissions from transportation as well. And that's really what got me started on it. And of course, there's an added benefit here in Ontario, because we have a big surplus of electricity on the grid at night, and that's when you would likely plug in your cars at night when you're at home. And so it's a good match with the grid economically, because at night, typically that power is wasted or dumped into New York State or Quebec at a loss. And so getting people to plug their cars in at night actually does the province and economic benefit as well. So it's sort of a winner environmentally, winner economically. And that sort of got me started on the EV path.

Lucas: Yeah, people always worry about, I think, how much extra electricity-generating capacity we have to bring online to handle EVs. And there is definitely some, but I know that a lot of it will, when we have like kind of peaks and dips, we have peaks in the mornings and peaks in the evenings of electricity use. And if we can charge our cars up at night, instead of having peaks, we'll just kind of sit constantly at that upper level, of course.

Cara: And the province is about to roll out, I think, in January of 2023, something they're calling ultra low electricity rates in the middle of the night. And of course, that's to encourage anyone to plug things in in the middle of the night when we have this surplus power that's cheap and clean. And so for EV drivers, it will be even more economical than it is now. Right now, it's about one-sixth the price of gas. So if you're paying about $1.50 a liter, I'm paying about twenty-eight cents, and we'll get even better, it'll be about half that. It'll be down to a $0.14, $0.15 equivalent. And you just can't imagine driving for so little money! that I hope it will inspire a lot of people to make the switch. We have a really great tool on our website where you could do the calculations yourself based on your own driving and where you live to try to help convince people that this is true. But I think that's the big surprise is they didn't realize they were going to save so much money. And the other is the performance of the car. I think often people don't realize that these are really amazing vehicles and you're not having to give up anything.

Lucas: So when the people come to Plug’nDrive, they must have a ton of questions about EVs. In general, I've described people who might come to your center as like, EV-curious. What are some of the top questions that Ev-curious consumers have for you?

Cara: Well, we do get people at all sorts of levels or on their journey. So, we get some people who come in who've really done a lot of research, who just are there; they want to try certain cars and they know which ones they want to try. But we do get a lot of people coming in and their main concerns typically are cost and range. Most of the questions revolve around that. They know about EVs, but they thought they might be too expensive. And so explaining total cost of ownership versus the sticker price of the MSRP, we have to help people understand that. And then range, I think, is a real concern and a valid concern, but I think the great news for drivers is the range of the vehicles has really improved over the last five to ten years. And sure, those first early EVs in 2010 and 2011 had had a very short range, really were only suited to shorthaul commuters. Now you can easily get a car with 500, 600km range really rivaling any gas car. So this is becoming less of a concern. But then that morphs into a concern about public infrastructure and concerns that maybe we still don't have enough. So then we will talk to people about what to do about public charging and we show them the apps and the apps and where to find the chargers, and people are often pleasantly surprised that there's actually more charges than they expected out there.

Lucas: Yeah, one of the concerns that I hear when I'm talking anecdotally to friends and coworkers and people with EVs is it's always the rare occasions when the range might be a problem. Like people often in southern Ontario site going up to Muskokas or Cottage Country or the Algonquins, that always seems to be what holds them back at those rare exceptions.

Cara: We definitely have noticed that Canadians are very fixated on their one or two times a year road trip for their purchase of their car. And it's not even the folks who go to cottages frequently. You can sort of understand like that's a regular trip that they do. But we find a lot of folks very fixated on a trip they might do once a year or less. And so we do try to say, hey, if you drive across Canada once in your life or once a year, don't base your purchase of your vehicle on a very rare occasion trip. Choose the car that makes sense for 99% of what you're doing, not for the 1%.

Lucas: Speaking of fueling, this is one of the things I'm most interested in hearing from you about fueling EVs and the infrastructure to do so is going to look a lot different than it did for conventional vehicles. Fueling takes a lot longer, but can be done at work or home when you're not actively using the car. And it relies on a much more readily available commodity that's already pumped into our homes and businesses.

Cara: Right?

Lucas: Exactly.

Lucas: So when the EV transition comes a little more into force, it's going to really disrupt the gasoline and diesel fueling industry. But what do you think is going to take its place? What new fueling regimes do you see as being the new normal in ten or 20 years?

Cara: Well, what we're seeing is there will be like these EV charging hubs and they will tend to be at locations where there's something to do. You'll want to grab a bite, use a bathroom. A gas station alone is not really an ideal place for charging because usually all there is is a convenience store. And so we're definitely seeing, you know, sort of a trend towards more amenities. And then of course, if, let's say you're going to charge for a bit longer, you might want to be where there's a restaurant or shopping or things to do. You're going to see more and more charging at places with activities.

Lucas: So, anecdotally, I've talked a lot to friends and families about EVs, of course, and a lot of them have expressed some level of interest in buying one. Like, we talked about EV curious consumers, but only one or two of them actually taken a leap and bought an EV. Now, being that you work with Plug’nDrive, I'm sure you've noticed a big disparity between people who are interested and people who take the plunge. Like, what do you think causes that gap?

Cara: We are finding, like our stats are really great. We find that people visit Plug and Drive, about 35% to 40% of the people within six months have bought the car. So we find that people are making the switch. There's a couple of big challenges right now. One is financing. Financing rates right now are more for EVs than for gas cars. So that's a bit of a disincentive right there.

Lucas: Really.

Cara: The supply of vehicles is the second problem and supply is quite low. There's such a high demand for the few vehicles there are that sometimes people who are keen on an EV, they can’t find one that suits their family.

Lucas: That's right.

Cara: The final thing would just be like used EVs are a great option for people, but they are also quite expensive right now just because the supply of new vehicles is so low.

Lucas: So speaking of vehicle availability, especially here in Toronto and Ontario, you probably saw that article that came out in the Toronto Star a little while ago about how long the average wait times are. It's up to about eleven months on average in Toronto to get an EV, which is crazy. A lot of those vehicles are being shipped to places….

Cara: And let’s face it, a lot of people who go shopping for a vehicle, they're thinking of buying that vehicle within a few weeks.

Lucas: Absolutely. When you want a new car, you're thinking of a new car now, not in almost a year from now. And I think a big part of the reason why we don't have as many in Ontario is because so many are being shipped out to places with EV sales target mandates - BC and Quebec - where the government says “X” percentage of sales every year have to be EVs. So, we get what's left. What can we do to address that?

Cara: I just spent the day in Ottawa just a few days ago with a group from Electricity Mobility Canada, which is like the EV Industry Association meeting with federal MPs to say, you folks promised an EV mandate for Canada. Let's see, it happen. There was a time where I thought, okay, well, maybe we don't need it as long as the supply comes. But the supply isn't coming. And so I do think we need it to level the playing field across Canada, especially when some provinces have better rebates than others.

Lucas: So this is a bit of a tough question to ask because I always want the answer to be yes, but I don't think it, it might not be. Given where we are right now in Canada, the fueling infrastructure, the costs, the remoteness of some people; are EVs right for everyone in this moment? Or are there some people in some places in situations where an electric vehicle over conventional vehicle is the wrong move in 2022?

Cara: I think the number of people where EVs don't make sense is much smaller than everybody thinks. One of the things, for example, I talk with a lot of rural people and there's a belief that EVs don't suit rural Ontario or rural Canada. And I think that's wrong. They can suit a lot of drivers in rural Canada. Now, does it suit every single driver? No. If you drive very long distances in remote parts of the country, maybe 100% electric is not for you. But a plug-in hybrid can do anything that a gas car can do. So why would you not at least go halfway if you can't go all the way? So to me, that's a great option for somebody like that. Or let's say you're a one car family and you do loads of long trips. I mean, I can understand them wanting to go to a plug-in hybrid, at least right now, where the infrastructure is still growing. But I think if you're an urban-suburban commuter, if you are living rural, but most of your driving is just back and forth to town, if you're a two-car family, it's a no-brainer.

Lucas: For sure, that makes total sense. Having one EV that is kind of your main car, and then that second car to say, trips to the Muskokas or those long-distance trips, things like that.

Cara: Save that gas car for the long trips or the hockey tournaments or whatever thing it is that causes your family to drive places, especially unfamiliar places. I think the challenge for drivers is like if they're going somewhere, routinely, they know what to do. But let's say they go to a lot of places that they don't know so if you're somebody who drives your kid to rec hockey or soccer or whatever else, you're going to a lot of towns you don't know. And so I think that causes people to hesitate. It is getting easier. But if you're a two car family, I mean, take the gas car on those trips and for the rest of your driving, your bulk of your driving, you can still drive on electric for sure.

Lucas: Speaking of, so going to places that you're not familiar with is a thing that we all do in cars sometimes. You mentioned apps and maps earlier, so what sort of apps and maps are there for EV drivers that could help them with that?

Cara: So they're so amazing. Actually, there's two main ones that actually sort of aggregate all the chargers together into one map, which is handy because you don't want to just have the map that has only one brand of charger on it because then of course, you're limited. So these are Plugshare and Chargehub. Those are the two that most EV drivers use to sort of find their way around. And an interesting sort of update is that ChargeHub has started making it possible for you to pay at all these different chargers using the one app, rather than having to have an app for Flow and an app for ChargePoint, an app for Ivy, you know, to make your payments on these chargers

Lucas: That’s so convenient!

Cara: And I hope over time it will all get coordinated. So you just need the one. But we're definitely seeing huge growth in public chargers. Like every month, about 50 to 100 more get added in Canada. So it's a real growth spurt right now. And so it is quite easy, if you're willing, even if you do drive a lot of different places, to just look on the map and see if you can charge when you're there or whatever. I think for some people, it just causes them a little bit of anxiety. And most EV drivers will tell you like, they worried about range maybe for the first week or two, and then after that they totally forgot about it because they realize, oh my God, I'm plugging in at home. Like most of us, 80% of us are plugging in at home every night. So actually you're full all the time. You have less range concerns than in a gas car in most scenarios.

Lucas: But a lot of people in places like Toronto, for example, live in condos and high rises. Like there's underground parking, but no EV charging stations.

Cara: That's a huge challenge, one that we're working on. We've been encouraging the governments to, if they're going to put money towards EV infrastructure, that that's a really good place to put it because it's pretty easy to get a charger installed if you live in a single-family home. But in a condo, it can be cost-prohibitive. One of the things that we really need is a change to our building code because a new condo could be built right now and there's no requirement to put chargers in. From a practical point of view, if you want your building to be around for 50 years, I mean, it would just be a miss for you to build a building that at least didn't rough it in. Because people are going to go looking for a building with EV charging and they're going to go to a different building.

Lucas: So when you say rough it in, can you explain what that means?

Cara: They don't actually have to put the chargers in, but what they have to do is put the tubes and the wiring in that would make EV charging possible. And that's a very inexpensive thing to do when you're building a building. But once the building is built, it's a very expensive thing to do because you have to drill through cement walls and floors and all sorts of things.

Lucas: That makes sense. It’s a lot easier before the cement dries. So ever since the Justin Trudeau's liberal government came in in 2015, there's been a lot of focus on electric vehicles. They're kind of one of the posterchilds of, I think, the, Trudeau's climate strategy. I mean, there's the federal EV rebate incentives, which I think most people have heard of. There's a ton of money in the infrastructure program to subsidize the cost of charging stations and they even have like a hashtag EV week earlier this year where they kept announcing new money and funding and programs across the country. I think all these things are moving the needle on public opinion of EVs and public perception of how available and how useful they could be to the individual's life. But you have a better idea of this than I do. So when you think back over the last six or seven years, how have perceptions changed?

Cara: Well, I mean, I think it's a whole bunch of issues, sort of perfect storm that has led to EV's sort of taking off. And of course, I do credit the federal government with some of it. It's really been helpful. A lot of provinces have really done an amazing job too at accelerating adoption in their provinces. You just have to look at the stats and you can see that BC and Quebec have much better EV adoption than we have. And you can see why they have added incentives. They have more infrastructure, they're ahead. And so, although the federal government is helping across Canada, those additions by province have really helped as well. And then I do think their infrastructure fund has been super helpful. And then of course, they've made a whole bunch of new commitments. But we haven't seen those enshrined in any kind of regulation yet, so we're hopeful that they will. Which includes the EV mandate and a bunch of incentives for medium and heavy-duty vehicles, school buses to make sure that all sort of size of vehicles benefit from electrification.

Lucas: Yeah, because when we look at, say, cars and trucks, that's going to feel easy compared to a fire truck or an ambulance going electric. But that's got to happen too. 

Cara: And boats!

Lucas: Boats, yes. I think one of the biggest sectors in the transportation field that we need to make progress on is transport trucks. There's so many transport trucks in Canada and North America, and it's so hard to electrify them because they're so big, they're so powerful, they haul so much tonnage.

Cara: More than ever, right? During the Pandemic, we were all getting things delivered in a way we never had before, so delivery becomes even more important to reducing emissions. So, I mean, the good news is you do see lots of brands of vehicle coming out. They're not really here yet, but we are seeing quite a bit in medium duty, like the Bright Drop trucks that are going to be made here in Ontario. And I do think the transports aren't far away.

Lucas: Better and better every day. I really like that. And I hope that we see some electric transport trucks on the road in the next five or six years.

Cara: Just wait for the ferries. That's pretty exciting. I had the opportunity to go to Norway for a big EV conference in the summer. And what shocked me the most, there wasn't so much how many EVs on the road, which there were a lot, but how many of their boats they've electrified. There's chargers on every dock that you see.

Lucas: That's one thing we don't think about. Not even public transportation ferries, but like just personal boats with electric motors. Is a thing that I never think about.

Cara: Yes. Motorboats. Cottage lakes and stuff. Also, to really clean up cottage lakes because it's a huge source of not just greenhouse gas emissions, but water pollution.

Lucas: Absolutely. That's a good point. Yeah. It's saving not only the atmosphere, but also the waters. Again, something you don't think about very often. So I found that one of the most effective ways in changing someone's mind on any subject is having like a one on one conversation with someone in your social circle. Talking to a friend is more helpful in convincing or changing someone's mind and facts on the Internet, I'm sure you must have come across a lot of people, say maybe in your family or friends circle who have really negative opinions about EVs. What do you find is effective at talking to people who are really EV negative or EV Pessimistic still to kind of get them to open their mind a little bit more?

Cara: You can imagine we've sort of faced every kind of person. There's some people that you're never going to convince. I don't work too hard on those people, but there's lots of people in the middle that I think you really can convince. And we have found the number one thing that convinces people is the test drive. They need to experience it to believe it, because there's just so many preconceived notions and that just wipes them out. They get in there. First of all, it's quiet, it's fast off the start, it's a good quality car. And then while you're driving, you can talk to them about range and how they're going to charge it and where they're going to go and help them with their sort of own personal situation. And we find usually by the end of that, people are more or less convinced.

Lucas: So one thing I've got to ask you at some point during this interview. What kind of car do you drive?

Cara: So, in my family, we have a Tesla Model Three and also a Chevy Bolt EV.

Lucas: Do you find that you use one for certain activities versus another for different ones?

Cara: My husband loves the Bolt. He actually prefers it over the Tesla. You sit up a little bit higher, good performance in the snow. If we're taking a longer road trip where the public charging is going to be needed, usually take the Tesla. Right now, their public infrastructure is a little bit faster and a little bit better.

Lucas: Well, I'm glad that you can put your money where your nest is and have a couple EVs in the family.

Cara: I got my Nissan Leaf in 2011 when I started plug and drive because I thought you got to walk the talk when you're doing something like this. Even that first generation Leaf, and they've improved it a lot since then was a fantastic little car. I actually really loved that car.

Lucas: So EVs are a technology that are really quickly evolving. Even over the past five years, we've seen such huge improvements. In fact, part of the reason why I'm doing this podcast is a lot of the journalistic articles written about EVs were written in, say, 2012, 2013, and those feel very dated by today's standards. A lot of them were on people's perceptions of them and they were very poor. And I wanted to see, through the podcast, to get a better, updated sense of what people's opinions were now. But still, EVs, I think, can go a lot farther than they are. So what would you say is the biggest shortcoming of EVs in 2022?

Cara: I think we can do a little bit better on infrastructure, and we need to be strategic about where we put them. So that'll help a lot and a little bit more range. Sure, but there's plenty of people who actually don't even need that. Many of us are urban, suburban commuters. We don't need hundreds of kilometers of range. And so then, to be honest, you're hauling around a big battery that you probably don't fully use. So for some drivers, a smaller battery pack makes sense. So it's really dependent on the type of driver that you are. For example, you can get a Nissan Leaf that's like, got a 300-kilometer battery, or you can get a Tesla or Ionic or one of you know, that has a four to 500, even 600-kilometer battery. But you're paying for that difference. And so you might be somebody that is mostly an urban driver, you really don't need that big battery and you can buy a cheaper car.

Lucas: I wonder if public charging is going to be as much about just its visual presence and its actual utility. As you say, not everyone can do this, but a lot of folks will charge at home most of the time. But that worries them because it's such a big change from going to a place to fuel your car, right? That's what we've been used to our whole lives. And so we just like seeing those charges in public, knowing that the option is there in case you need them.

Cara: I do think you're right about that, because we hear from a lot of people, well, I’d love an EV, but there's no chargers anywhere. And it's like they've just never noticed them because they're small, they're behind buildings, they're in underground lots, they're not visible, like a neon sign gas station. And so, first of all, they believe there are a lot fewer than there are and then they're concerned they won't be where they're going. And so a lot of it, again, is perception and not real. But that does stop people from buying the car. So we have to help people get to the point where they feel comfortable and so visible chargers or signage or something.

Lucas: Do people that come into plug and drive sometimes forget or don't know that they can install a home charger?

Cara: People don't know and they don't really realize what that will be like. You know, people will say, well, how long does it take to charge? This is the question you get, we get, every single day. Of course, of course, all the batteries are a different size, so there's no way to answer that question. Even if it's between 2 hours and 6 hours, what difference does it make? You're at home overnight. So it's sort of like asking how long does it take your phone to charge? And you would say, I don't know because it's not relevant. You'll plug it in, when you wake up, it'll be charged and it's sort of the same thing. And so it's not really the amount of time, doesn't matter. It only matters if you're on a road trip.

Lucas: That's a great analogy, comparing it to a phone, because I have no idea how long it takes my phone to charge from empty to full. But I plug it at night and I wake up the morning and it's good to go. It's so great. It's going to be difficult for a lot of people to wrap their heads around, I think, just because the way we charge our cars is so different.

Cara: But they get it! Once they try it, they get it. And one of the things that I think does help is we worked a little bit with a company called EV Net that rents EVs. And so, for some people who are very worried about this, they might just try it for a weekend or a week and see how it is in their life, and they'll maybe get the feel of it.

Lucas: As the EVs continues to mature as a technology and gain a wider market share, what is the one thing that excites you most about the future of EVs?

Cara: Okay, well, I'm a booster, obviously, and I love so many things about them. I love the quiet ride and the quick pickup. You can pass anybody if you need to. So there's a lot of great things about the vehicles themselves. But one really exciting thing that I think as sort of what I would call like, an electricity geek is that we have this opportunity that hasn't even been contemplated much yet, which is this idea of vehicle to grid or vehicle to home, where we're going to be able to offer the power back to the grid from our batteries. And many of us whose, let's say, car is sitting at home all day because we work at home or whatever, are sitting at work all day, we would offer our battery back into the grid. And if there's many of us, these batteries all over the place, sort of mobile storage, offering our batteries back into the grid, we might be able to avoid that next gas plant that's going to increase emissions from our electricity grid. So I think that's a really exciting opportunity. It's early days on that, but the technology is here. This isn't like some crazy far-off future. It's coming.

Lucas: One of the things that excited me most about the Ford F-150 lightning. Not that I'm in a place to buy a truck, but the idea that it could potentially power your home for, like, I think it was three days, in the case of a blackout, you can take the energy from the car and put it back into your home when you need it. And you can't do that with a gasoline car at all. You can't siphon gas to like, run your home.

Cara: And it’ll help us all avoid having to have backup generators. I mean, lots of ways that we use fossil fuels today that we won't.

Lucas: That's a really cool thing to be excited about. And I really look forward to the day when back and forth energy flows are just kind of common practice. Well, Cara, thank you so much for your time. I could talk for 2 hours with you about this. I love it.

Cara: It's a great topic. And you know, if people want to do a test drive and they live in the GTA, they should just check out Plug’nDrive.ca and they can book one. We book our test drives online. So that's a great opportunity for people. If they get excited by this podcast, they want to go check it out.

Worrying about where you can fuel your car, whether it will make the trips you need it to, or how much it will cost you can be a big deterrent to choosing a plug-in vehicle for your next car. I hope you’ve come away from this episode with a different perspective on how to think about issues of cost and fueling for your next car. Metrics like the levelized cost of driving give you a better idea of the total cost of ownership and show that EVs aren’t any more expensive than conventional cars. Home charging and the increasing number of charging stations at locations you’re likely to visit anyways means you can avoid trips to the gas station and incorporate vehicle charging more seamlessly into your daily life. 

As we learn more about EVs and what they’re capable of, we can start to shift our perspectives on them too. Talking to others who have experience with electric vehicles can overcome the hesitancies that you may have and likewise, sharing your experience and knowledge of EVs with those who are interested could be the best way to change hearts and minds. 

Another way to learn more about EVs is to get some time behind the wheel. If you live in the GTA, you can book a test drive at Plugndrive.ca. If you don’t, there may be some dealerships in your area where you can take a test drive or car rental companies with EVs in stock. I want to thank Cara for taking the time to talk with me about why she’s so excited about EVs, and what their future holds. 

If you know someone who’s EV-curious, I encourage you, in the spirit of changing social norms to share this episode with them. It may help alleviate some of the concerns they have about EVs, and it’ll give you something to talk about the next time you see each other. And if you already made the leap and own an EV, I want to encourage you to talk to people about your experience owning one if they’re curious. 

As always, thank you for listening and thank you for helping me Spark the Transition.