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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#043- "Tower of Terror" with Former Austin Police Officer Waymon Lewis
In this captivating episode, law enforcement veteran Waymon Lewis shares his life journey with us, starting from his upbringing in Lampasses, Texas, to his time in the Police Academy during the 1960s, and his experiences on patrol. Waymon's account of the UT Tower shooting in Austin is particularly gripping, as he narrates the terrifying sequence of events that transpired that day with vivid detail. We also get a glimpse into the often-overlooked challenges of shift work in law enforcement and the need for supportive partners to navigate through the stress. The conversation also touches upon the vital role of community policing, relationships, and communication within the community. Waymon's story is a reminder of the best and worst of humanity and the importance of gratitude for the support of loved ones. Tune in to this heart-rending and thought-provoking conversation.
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Good evening. One of history's worst mass murders occurred here in Austin today.
Speaker 2:There are 16 dead and 33 injured.
Speaker 1:The phone rang and I answered it. It was a dispatcher. He says there's been a shooting of the university. He blew it all over the place, went up to the observation bed. There's a lady that was the secretary, I suppose. He didn't kill her, shot her and shot her.
Speaker 2:Welcome back Blue Grit family. I am Tyler Owen. How are you? I'm good, how are you?
Speaker 3:I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2:Good, how was your? Uh, you stayed in Austin last night.
Speaker 3:I was here overnight.
Speaker 2:You've been in the area for a couple of days now. How does it feel to be in Austin night for three days?
Speaker 3:It feels good. Man, I hadn't even been a victim of a crime yet. I'm shocked, really.
Speaker 2:Not yet. I was almost this morning. Uh, panhandler was trying to get me some money there at the corner but I just passed on through, just keep on rolling. He didn't know you're East Texas. Who'd you're at? He didn't Uh me. You know I'm a Yankee. Uh, for y'all that don't know, I was referred to as a Yankee several episodes ago by my good friend, colleague and companion, clint McNeary, because I live north. What did you say of the?
Speaker 3:North of I-20.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So, uh, yankee, still kind of coping with that and um, been through counseling and I think I'll kind of get over it, but I'm, I'm, I'm making it. I'm settled down in Wembley, texas now, for everybody that has asked where I settled in that, so when I stays now is where I stays is Wembley. Texans is where we stay. That's the mascot. By the way, the whole towns I mean it's just consumed with high school football.
Speaker 3:So that's a good thing, man, that's a good place to get, so don't call me on Friday night. Yeah, do not call me on Friday night because I'll be at the game, so that's why I am flying out of here as soon as this ends, to go watch for me Friday night football.
Speaker 2:They're the jackrabbits right the jackrat, the fighting jackrabbits. Yeah, texans are better Just throwing it out there.
Speaker 3:Not cotton. Tails jackrabbits.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's cool.
Speaker 3:All right, welcome. I guess we have on a cool story that I've been waiting to get to, to share this story, his story, with you guys for a while Um, wayman Lewis.
Speaker 1:Glad to have you answer. Glad to be here.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the blue grid stage. Would you tell me that's not better to be seen than?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's better be seen than observe.
Speaker 2:That's the truth. That's the truth.
Speaker 3:Um, we're going to dive into his story in a bit. We'll build a little groundwork and lay a foundation before we dive into it. But Mr Lewis was Austin PD back in the day and, uh, as far as I know, the United States first mass attack or mass shooter, mass murder, um, at the UT tower. But we always like to start off with who in the hell's wayman? Lewis? Where were you born? Where'd you grow up? Tell us who wayman is.
Speaker 1:I was born, excuse me, in Lampasses, Texas it's about 70 miles north of here, and I went through kindergarten and high school there.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful country.
Speaker 3:He's soft spoken, he's gentle.
Speaker 2:It's all here. It's all the years working at Austin PD.
Speaker 3:So grew up in Lampasses.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Born there and grew spent your whole through high school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, life was different back then, I'd imagined in the current times I would. I would think, oh yeah, just a little bit. You could probably carry gun in your in your shotgun rack at school and yeah, yeah, it's different.
Speaker 3:In Lampasses a little bit fortunate Um. Marble Falls and Fredericksburg are kind of blown up, sadly, but Lampasses has not had that yet.
Speaker 1:Six thousand.
Speaker 3:That's good. Wow, what was life growing up in Lampasses, texas? Play football, play sports Well.
Speaker 1:I played junior high and freshman year. But then my father wouldn't sign papers. And the coach he says you need to get in there and play, you know. And I said, well, I'd love to. He said I've got some connections up at Howard Payne at Brownwood, probably get you a scholarship. So I went back home and told my dad he's afraid I'd get hurt. So what?
Speaker 2:the sign off on it? No.
Speaker 1:Man yeah, but I probably wouldn't have met my bride if I.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:Going to Brownwood.
Speaker 2:There you go. You're a high school sweetheart.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I robbed the cradle.
Speaker 2:It's always good to get him young. It's always good to get you.
Speaker 3:Statue and limitations is over on that, so you're good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've been married for six years.
Speaker 2:That's why it's awesome. It's awesome Three listeners out there that are in law enforcement having a supportive spouse as women can tell you so important. So congratulations you guys.
Speaker 3:And, sadly, 50 year marriages, 55 year marriages are the anomaly now, whereas back when we were young, that was the norm.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Most people were married and stuck through thick and thin and bless you guys for the relationship you guys have had for 56 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, working shift work. I'd place Barbara and then later on I'll be him. She would show the kids pictures of me.
Speaker 2:You know this is their dad. This is the real guy. I promise this is your dad. Yeah, we understand. Believe us.
Speaker 3:So graduated high school. Where'd we even go to then?
Speaker 1:I went to uh, as it was Nixon play business school here in Austin, and then I joined the garden 64 and went to Fort Polk. Louisiana beautiful metropolis yeah.
Speaker 3:Easy, easy East Texas boy.
Speaker 1:that hurts his feelings and then went to a station, that at Fort Bliss, and they'll pass oh another beautiful metropolis and military love to you.
Speaker 3:How long did you do in the garden?
Speaker 1:Seven years, no six years.
Speaker 3:What was your job in there? What was your last?
Speaker 1:Well, it's it changed. I was sort of out of supply and transportation and I was the MP at one time. I was in a commo, section one, and it's it's Varied experiences and not much training you know for each one of them. You are one today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what years were those?
Speaker 1:that you were in the service 64 to 70. Okay.
Speaker 3:All your family kind of have a military history, or does that just something you decided you wanted to do?
Speaker 1:I just thought it was during the Vietnam War, you know. So you didn't get much choice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, go do your time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Was serving as an MP. Is that what kind of gave you a taste of law enforcement, or did you have family and law enforcement?
Speaker 1:No, didn't have any family in it. I was working for my father who was contractor and I was wanting to establish a retirement and you know steady pay and stuff. So I was going to go to try to get into DPS but they were not having a class for several months so I was going to have a program where they would, you know, put you on different jobs until it started. I went and visited the Austin Police Department and they had a program where they could put you to work and fix and start a cadet class.
Speaker 2:Was Austin always known? And I mean I'm 38 now, oh well, I guess I'm 39. I got reminded that the other day by my wife. Had they always been known as a very elite or superior agency within the this is within this area for their benefit package and their pay?
Speaker 1:because they certainly are now I mean yeah, I can recall Sorgant Fisher when he retired. Their retirement system was not anything good, I mean rumor had it that he got food stamps.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:And so, after the state took it over, it's superb.
Speaker 2:So you got it before TMRS did, I guess, wouldn't it be right, clint? I guess?
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, such thing.
Speaker 3:And being having great benefits, and all of that is relative. Last night we were at dinner and all of us were talking about how difficult law enforcement is now and nobody will apply to do the job. And I said, yeah, there are handfuls, several handfuls of look in Texas where you can be a police officer and in five years you make $100,000. Yeah, yeah, and people are still not applying to do the job.
Speaker 2:Nobody will do the job.
Speaker 3:That's a clue, right, and would you say you thought your first take home pay was roughly it was $300 something dollars a month. Wow, Austin Police Department 300 something bucks a month.
Speaker 2:Man, I give anything to get that paycheck right now. Get you some of that Get it framed right. That's insane.
Speaker 1:Wow, and the retirement wasn't any good. But since the state took it over I've still got friends that have been there and I know one guy he ended up retiring with like 103% of his salary. Yeah, of course he stayed there a little bit longer than he had to.
Speaker 2:Right, I would have too for that much.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So what year was that you reached out to Austin? You were looking at DPS and they reached out to Austin PD.
Speaker 1:What year was that? 1966?.
Speaker 3:And got hired before Cadet Academy started. Yep.
Speaker 2:And at that point Austin. So they ran their own Academy and DPS right here, because I think at one point I'd heard that they had ran one in conjunction with another, but I hadn't confirmed that it was individual.
Speaker 1:Okay, I was in the 30th cadet class, wow.
Speaker 3:So what'd you do between higher day and going to Academy Cadet class?
Speaker 1:Well, probably was doing construction.
Speaker 3:On your own or through the department. Okay, okay. Well, like dad got hired, I think in 67, he was 20 and they didn't have an Academy, so he had to drive around and check on houses where people put in vacation requests. He would have to drive around and say that he was looking at houses.
Speaker 1:They had a program where you could work as a dispatcher. You could work in a jail.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:You could work in central records.
Speaker 3:So how old were you then?
Speaker 1:22.
Speaker 3:And how long do you have to just kind of fly on a holding pattern until you went to the Academy?
Speaker 1:About two or three months. That was pretty fortunate.
Speaker 3:Okay, what was Academy back then? How long?
Speaker 1:If I recall, it was about 90 days or something. Wow.
Speaker 2:That's probably long, really. For the other majority of classes, the Academy is going on.
Speaker 3:But honestly, yeah, we have guests on that said they got hired and they were pretty much told here's a badge. Good, go catch back.
Speaker 2:It's that fourth and conquer Right. Yeah, we had a rounded Lord on shut out to Ronda Lord he said that they had guys that had to go back to the Academy I mean even after being a cop, oh when they when they really yeah, when they came out with like T coal and yeah, made requirements for Academy training Officers have been on the street like five or six years.
Speaker 3:They'd go to police.
Speaker 2:Can you imagine that the bitching and groping that happened there in Griffin, yeah?
Speaker 1:Oh man, how boring it was.
Speaker 3:Oh well, yeah, I'm sure you got a guy in the crowd knows more than the instructor. Yeah yeah. So went through the Academy 90 days. What part of the year? When was that?
Speaker 1:I think. Well, I got out of the Academy and had to go to summer camp and oh, that's right, I remember you in whenever I got back. Well, you know, I could, I was commissioned and two weeks later, whitman yeah, our so you're?
Speaker 3:you leave in the Academy, going to FTO or hitting the street was delayed two weeks going to summer camp through the guard. Was there an FTO program? When you came back from your summer camp they signed you with someone?
Speaker 1:No, no, I was a commissioned officer and put you on the street.
Speaker 3:Here's a car, go get after it yeah. And so no-transcript. Now we have FTO, so I'll spend three months in a car riding around with an FTO and they're shadowing me, telling me, showing me how to write a report, how to make an arrest, how to do this. You just kind of fend for yourself, or did you depend on senior officers to kind of guide?
Speaker 1:you? No, you Did what she had to do. Wow, I was. What do you call it? Fto? I?
Speaker 2:Had several guys that I had responsibility for this is years after you became a cop okay, wow. So all the job training is pretty much you had whenever you graduated academy. They said set forth and conquer, and your, your commission, go do your thing.
Speaker 1:You know we'd ride every now and then with somebody, right, but it?
Speaker 2:It was a good academy learned a lot.
Speaker 3:I'm sure, I'm sure, and that was summer 66.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's a song. Isn't there a song about summer of 66 that came in right now about him? Yeah, damn sure can. Before we dive off into the really the big story that we're gonna talk about today, as a kid in lamb passes, did you hunt a lot? Did you have a lot of exposure?
Speaker 1:Okay, was that a common thing that y'all well, I've had a real good friend that his dad had lease places and ranch and his uncle and Did deer hunting and raccoon hunting, jackrabbit hunting so hand me, handing you a Quote-unquote deer off of what we all common, who you know.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter if you're hunting deer, not this not. You know your way around it.
Speaker 1:Well, when I was in a basic training, I Qualified with them in 14 open sights though.
Speaker 3:Yeah with no scope, no okay, scopes of luxury.
Speaker 1:But I had a lot of experience shooting, you know, Barmets and that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I just want to touch on that, for you. Yeah, no, it's a great deal Dilled in the dive. Did yeah into the story.
Speaker 3:So You've been on the street two weeks out of the academy on patrol, can't card you were you and your member was quite close car.
Speaker 1:It was a.
Speaker 3:Please say Ford Plymouth, plymouth, like a fury.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's that probably.
Speaker 3:Driving around on patrol and for our listeners I clearly there was no cell phones and in the 60s it was before cell phones, before any kind of handheld radio or anything. You and even for our young Officers that are out there. There was no handheld radio, so when you leave your car, you lost communication You're done your communication with anybody you.
Speaker 1:You did what you think you needed to do and it's. It was Quite interesting.
Speaker 3:So summer 66 you're driving around in your Plymouth Two weeks on the job got the world whipped Big police in Texas.
Speaker 2:You know a shift you were working that day.
Speaker 1:Working day shift and I had been investigating a collision.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I was working downtown. I was working a shift that had three different areas and that particular day I was working downtown and I went into our show up or show down area briefing it, yeah and gave them the phone number back. There was going to be the extension because, like say, you didn't have any radios or anything, and so the phone rang and I answered it and it was a dispatcher.
Speaker 1:He says there's been a shooting up at university. He said you need to go up there, but that's the only information I had and what time frame.
Speaker 2:So this this day shift mid-summer? What, what, what, what was that? Patrol shift like it's 12 hours.
Speaker 1:Well, I was on traffic at one time and patrol and not if it was patrol, you get off at three okay into three.
Speaker 2:Okay, you remember one time that phone call you got about the shooting.
Speaker 1:That was a probably about 130, I guess okay okay and I Went up to the university in there. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but there's a crosswalk from student union building Over to them where it goes up to the mall, and that was the only parking.
Speaker 1:there wasn't any other parking spaces, so I went and parked in that crosswalk and and stepped out of the car, I had my shotgun and pistol, of course, and One of the kids I was a kid myself One of the kids says you know you might want to get out there.
Speaker 3:He's already shot several people right in that area so when you're driving there and the only information you have is there's been a shooting in a shooting, clearly You're not thinking mass murder.
Speaker 1:You're thinking, somebody shot, somebody Never had.
Speaker 2:And we're speaking of University of Texas at Austin, just to be clear. That way, people who don't know about the story hook them, baby God.
Speaker 3:And you stepped out of the car. You had a, probably a pump 12.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I had a 12-gauge shotgun and my pistol and After I was told by that individual that he had already shot some people there, I hopped in the car and put my shotgun in the rack cuz Up in the tower wasn't gonna do a whole lot of good.
Speaker 2:Did he tell you that he was in the tower?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, you can hear the shot.
Speaker 2:Okay. So you're at this point. You're on scene, somebody tells you he's already shot, so you're starting to kind of connect the dots. So, oh shit, this is a guy that's in the tower shooting.
Speaker 3:Okay, in your handguns probably a Smith and Wilson 38.
Speaker 1:Yeah, two-inch barrel or something, probably it was.
Speaker 3:All right, getting out there dirty, hairy size.
Speaker 1:Whenever I moved my car out of the way, I was approached by a young man and he says you want a deer rifle? I said yeah, sure do. And there's no. Swat back there no SWAT. They didn't have any kind of weapons or anything. What they had with some old scaggy rifles that they seized, you know way back when. And I told him to assure and he says, well, I've got a 308 with three to nine variable in my Volkswagen. Or whether I said, well, let's go get it.
Speaker 3:And this is just a civilian. You have no clue.
Speaker 1:He's just offering his deer rifle, wow he was manager of the chicken place and and he had a box of shells in his 308 and I told him I would be in the architectural building and he says, well, if I go get another one, can I shoot? I say sure.
Speaker 2:This is awesome. He was in a. Volkswagen.
Speaker 3:Beetle yeah.
Speaker 1:And he shows up in the architectural building and he had a 308 with three to nine and a case of shells, here we are, you'll be able to hold them off for a while.
Speaker 1:And we were. There's a whole time of windows in that building and it rolled out and there was pupils inside and I told to stay away from the windows. And and there's, one of them had a transistor radio and Apparently one of them had a Camera. They they took a picture of me whenever I was firing out to wind and I had a piece of newspaper that I stuck in there to protect his weapon, you know, from the metal frame, and then also to Maybe had the silhouette of me being in the window right.
Speaker 1:Maybe that would confuse him.
Speaker 2:But so how old are you at this point?
Speaker 1:How old?
Speaker 2:yeah, point to your 22 year old kid for all intents purposes. Yeah, yeah, two weeks on the job. Yeah which you know you don't be, even start really processing how to become a cop till about 10 or 15 years in, and this guy's looking at like, oh, he's a uniform cop. He's probably thinking, hell, yeah, let's, let's get. After it Hands you a rifle which that's random in a sense anyway, and you have the fortitude to realize I need to get higher ground and do all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I went to the second floor of the archtere, which is the highest floor. They had them and I guess it's still that way.
Speaker 2:But the transistor radio that the kid had, I think it was KNOW, perhaps when you're something about the kid, you're talking about the guy that gave you, gave you the rifle didn't know I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:One of the kids is in the building One of the students had a transistor radio.
Speaker 2:That's how you realized what was going. That's how you were keeping up with everything.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because the radio announcer, apparently he's had the advantage of Seeing where he was shooting from okay and in the architectural building I could see the west and the south side of the tower.
Speaker 1:And, of course, before we all got there, he was using there's a ledge about 18 inches wide all the way around the tower there and he was, you know, using that as a stand to shoot and, after you know, people started returning fire. He had moved down, start shooting out of some drain holes. There's three drain holes hit on each side of the Tower kind of like gun ports. Yeah, I mean, it was not designed for fortress with it. Sure, sure was effective for it.
Speaker 3:So Hang on on the back up. So 22 year old kid stepping out of your police car and you could hear it rounds. Did you realize it's probably rifles?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Big, loud crack. That's a rifle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the police on that was killed. He was on my shift, billy speed.
Speaker 3:Two weeks on the job, you've been through the Academy, but that's like saying, well, you didn't do a rosette online.
Speaker 2:You clearly know how to drive.
Speaker 3:You, you know in theory what to do, but you don't know how to do the job. Did you know the campus well enough to know that? Well, let me get in the architecture. What made you get in architecture building?
Speaker 1:The proximity to the tower.
Speaker 3:What made you take newspaper and work? Think that you better not silhouette myself.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, you know I was, as a picture that I have, that the kid, the pupil, he could definitely see you and I thought, well, put paper around the gun and in the window and it kind of hide my head so but he's such a good man.
Speaker 3:Did you catch the part? Yeah, I put newspaper under the because he didn't want to scratch.
Speaker 2:That means rifle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's mind boggling to me. I always think about others. That right, there is the definition of servant, you know. So, from the time that you got out of your car to where the shots are ringing out, what was that time frame as far as you? Starting at, actually engage.
Speaker 1:It seemed like an eternity right.
Speaker 2:So you really don't know, because we're not, there's not this dispatch, probably isn't you know, for you listeners out there that are 25, 26 years old, that work at Plano PD, garland, grand Prairie, even Austin PD now, oh, you know, we, we always depend and you may have been off patrol at that point in time and CID, but I would always, when I'm working, like a traffic accident I would need to get times, or even like a major shooting, I would reference back to dispatch and say, okay, well, at this point, this is when this call was dispatched and I could I don't have that shit.
Speaker 3:Back then, what was my rival time? What was?
Speaker 2:my yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, there was some much activity.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 1:There's like a. I mean just, I didn't have time for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the transistor radio that the student in there had the DJ was?
Speaker 1:I don't think it was a DJ, I think it was an announcer that you know they could see you know where he was, and that's whenever they would announce it. You know, south or the west side. And I told that gentleman, I used his rifle. I said when they're shooting from the west or the south side, I said I'll start at the left. You know, drain, you started to write and we'll meet in the middle and see if we can get a Rick Shea shot.
Speaker 1:At that angle you couldn't see, you know, anybody in there because it was such a pronounced you know angle and we would place our bullets and you can see some of the old pictures where the not necessarily my shots or his shots, but people were hitting the building.
Speaker 2:Were there other? Were there other officers or even civilians involved or engaged in in returning fire back to the tower? Or was it just you know?
Speaker 1:there was several you know people and DPS had you know arrived and there was a civilian shooting at him, but you couldn't see where he was because of the angle and hoping to get either Rick Shea or stuffing his eyes or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 3:So we'll lay over some of the photos and stuff for the listeners to be able to understand what you're talking about. But those gutter drain holes that you were trying to place rounds into that were essentially a fortress with gun ports in it. You can see them in photos, but how big.
Speaker 1:I would say that it's probably six to 10 inches wide and probably 12 to 14 inches long.
Speaker 3:It's a little bit bigger than a football yeah. And so, and you're, on a second story, shooting up there basically trying to put rounds in a football Right. Good God.
Speaker 1:And there was one time that we were firing there and I noticed in my scope on the south side, toward the east end of it, there was a rifle that was laying on the ledge and I told that guy.
Speaker 1:I said look. I said when they're not shooting up there in him. I said let's see if we can hit that rifle. And this is shot a few times and then all of a sudden it disappeared. Well, later on, you know, years later, found out why it disappeared the feeder tube had been hit and it knocked that rifle out of commission.
Speaker 2:Which is what you, exactly what you were trying to do, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I'm not saying. I hit it, it wasn't you.
Speaker 2:Somebody did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would think that there wasn't a lot of people with the forethought to think, if I can at least get one of those weapons out of battery and limit I don't. I would imagine there wasn't a lot of people with the forethought to do that.
Speaker 1:Well, you didn't know how many weapons he had up there and that might have ended it all right there, and if you knock that one out, but that or see had several weapons.
Speaker 3:How long do you think from the time you arrived until, I guess not really the all clear, because there was no real communication to tell y'all. There was an all clear. It's probably an hour and a half or two hours less, and I don't know in the, in the architecture building.
Speaker 2:Do you know about how many rounds do you think you've hired?
Speaker 1:No, I didn't.
Speaker 2:A lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Every time he was on the west or the south side, I would you know crack around I know, two, two rounds, wow, and he would shoot the other.
Speaker 1:But I went back up in the tower after and I don't know how they knew where I was Because you know, like I said, well, there was no radio, there wasn't not any kind of muster point, if you will, and you just did what you thought you needed to do. But some student came up there later on, so they want you to come to the tower. You know, help secure it. Well, handed the guy's rifle back.
Speaker 3:Appreciate you, sir, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I went over to the tower and didn't take the elevator all the way up. You know you'd never do what door open Going up staircase and he had killed a couple of people you know in that staircase and it would just blood all over the place, went up to the observation deck and there was a lady that was a secretary, I suppose you know a receptionist.
Speaker 1:He had killed her, shot her with shotgun and blood all over the reception area and later on, you know a few minutes, it was kind of all clear he was going to go out there and recover his body because he had been shot with buck shot by one of the police. When that went up in the tower and, lo and behold, walk out there and there's still bullets flying around hitting the wall you know people weren't able to get to notice that he was out.
Speaker 3:They didn't know the war was right.
Speaker 1:So I said it's not worth that.
Speaker 3:He's good, he's dead.
Speaker 1:I'm good Back inside and waited to see if you know they were going to quit shooting.
Speaker 3:So we had dinner last night and we were talking about some of it and one of us asked do you know who the kid is? He handed you the rifle and he goes. No, and I didn't intentionally ask because I didn't didn't want to know.
Speaker 1:There was felons being committed, but I didn't want to expose him to any of that stuff.
Speaker 3:And there's a in the photo. So the photo that will show a view sitting in an architecture building. If you're looking at the photo the unknown civilian, your partner, your sniper assistant he's sitting to your right. Yeah, he's shooting out a window.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then between you on the floor is the case of shells. He came back with Yep.
Speaker 2:And you never saw him again after that day.
Speaker 1:No, never did.
Speaker 2:You know a couple, a couple episodes ago.
Speaker 2:Well to, but to experience something like that with, with another human being, to see the devastation that was caused that day. For the most part, I mean, you're from central Texas, austin, the bell tower of Austin, the University of Austin, texas, is just an iconic figure to experience something that tragic? Um, you know we had talked about, you know, guardian angel, with Aaron Slater's episode. You know, you never know. You never know who or why God puts people in places, and I mean to be to have a rifle like that in downtown Austin.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, it's just well, he had heard about the shooting and they came down there to see if he could help.
Speaker 2:Right, but to have two rifles, yeah, no, I don't know.
Speaker 1:There was a sporting good store that was right across something about 22nd street in Waterloo, CNS 40. And I don't know if he went and bought another rifle or borrow a rifle. He was in the same locale as far as business man and I don't know if they loaned him one or what, but uh well but you think about the series of events that occurred.
Speaker 3:You've been on the job two weeks, don't have the training to go through something like that. Luckily you're in the guard, because if you hadn't been in the guard have been exposed to some of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You may not have had some of the tactical mindset to think about it. But then you showed up and somebody tells you don't park there. Two people have already been parked there. Then some unknown guy driving a sweet Volkswagen Beetle has a rifle. If he hadn't had that, you wouldn't have had a rifle.
Speaker 1:No, I would have had to depend on shot which is in effect.
Speaker 3:You might as well been shooting spit balls up there. There's a damn good chance you took one of his weapons out of battery you or somebody did which probably slowed down the effectiveness of his assault. I mean, there's a whole series of events that day that are crazy, because if any one of them hadn't happened, everything could have changed differently. Right, because you showed up to a sniper fight without I mean with a pea shooter basically and there was just a whole series of events. There was no SWAT back then, and for our young listeners law enforcement listeners SWAT came about in LA after sometime after this, but back then you have them and they're in.
Speaker 1:That was probably I think that was the first mass shooting, mass murder in the United States and it's hard to imagine cell phones not being around not having any communication you know right with the outside world, if you will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to touch on something real quick because I could tell the emotional impact that had just by mentioning his name. One of your coworkers was hit and died that day.
Speaker 1:Really speed.
Speaker 2:Did you know him?
Speaker 1:He's on my shift.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He left his wife and two boys behind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how many, how many civilians in law enforcement were hit that day?
Speaker 1:How many?
Speaker 3:How many civilians were injured or shot in police?
Speaker 1:officers. There was 30 people injured, 14 killed and two more His wife and his mother the day before he had stabbed them to death in their bed. So overall that whole activity was like 16.
Speaker 3:How many police officers? Billy speed was the only Wow, I thought there was more and he was on the ground arriving, I guess, similar to what you did when he got shot.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know, I kind of read some of the stuff there and it said that he was approaching, you know, the tower and the shop and I heard at that time that he was behind a wall that had the rock or whatever staggered and had openings in between the rocks and stuff. And a Whitman, he was with the X Marine, he qualified expert you know and I heard that they had shot him through the wall, but I've also heard that he was running up to mall there.
Speaker 3:So they come in and tell you hey, they need you in the tower. You go up there. There's some folks that don't know the war is not over and they're still taking pot shots. So you retreat back. Yeah. Where'd you go from there? What'd you do?
Speaker 1:Well, we'd sit out there every minute and sit until they quit firing, but they didn't do it.
Speaker 2:I went ahead and left because they had plenty of people you know the cavalry showed up, probably with the ambulance and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:you know, they had stretchers and they went out there and loaded them up. Yeah, he was shot with buckshot. So he was dead, Wasn't he was? Worried about him coming to life.
Speaker 3:So 22 year old kid involved in the first mass attack, mass murder incident, sniper attack in the United States. You just get in your car and get back home patrol.
Speaker 1:Well, my shift was over and they wanted everybody to write a supplement to it, but I'll just leave it at that the reason I didn't do it. But one, I guess maybe 10 years later one of the major networks showed that picture of myself, you know, shooting out the window and I wrote him a letter and explained who I was and tried to get the picture and never did hear anything from him. And then, another 10 or 20 years later, a newspaper came out with the picture and I wrote to Austin, american States one about you know, getting a copy of it and never did hear anything from him.
Speaker 1:So you know that bothered me for years and every last Wednesday of the month there's several policemen meeting burning breaking bread together and we went over there one time and I asked them if they knew anybody that may have access to some of the documentation from the Tower Institute and they said, well, they had a resident historian. If you will, you know, there's been so many years and I said what does anybody have his name and his phone number? They did and I got home that night from that burning and gave him a call and described the picture.
Speaker 1:He said, yeah, I've got it right here. So I says what would you send it to me? He said, yes, I will.
Speaker 3:But what's cool, interesting about that? You didn't know your photo was taken that day.
Speaker 1:No one of those students took the picture and I don't know. I guess they turned it into the police department, so I don't know how they ended up getting it.
Speaker 3:So from the summer of 66, roughly what year was it that you're watching TV and yourself pops up.
Speaker 1:About 10 years.
Speaker 3:So you had no idea you were photographed. 10 years later you're watching TV and you're like, wow, that guy looks really familiar, I recognize it Well, yes, but I was joking. But you're like that. That's me on TV.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the thing of it is it. I don't know it was, what was that like Kind of flashback?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, because, because you just said something that triggered me, you didn't write a supplement so many, and we won't dive on the on the wire, but what I'm saying is is that well, I'll tell you why.
Speaker 1:To write the supplement I would have had exposed to go yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, and you didn't want to do that.
Speaker 3:No, you just lifted, as it was that last month.
Speaker 1:It's politically motivated, as the administration was, and maybe on a newbie.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and you know I was afraid, even though there was felons being committed and you know the guys justified in shooting. So was I justified. I didn't want him to have to go through all that.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you something Just and we can edit this out. When you saw that photo so being the fact of, of you trying to protect the, the, the, the citizen you being a two week officer, we know how police work can be somewhat of a hazing profession Was it almost like that's my confirmation that I helped out, that's my confirmation that I was there and that was my confirmation that I did my part and that's why you wanted to have it for for that reason, or was it just because it's a? It's honestly a badass picture and history.
Speaker 1:It was me and you know I wanted to have the picture because I was involved in something that was a first.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I just, I guess, pride.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3:I don't know if I'd been able to sleep for a few days if I'd have been sitting and watching my picture.
Speaker 1:The thing of it is uh it's like it happened yesterday. It's been 57 years ago, I recall. You know all the particulars of it and I wanted to picture, I guess, uh, kind of verify it bona fide, whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's where I was going a while ago with a 22 year old kid. Luckily you had guard experience to give you some tools to manage with it. But you're involved in the first massive sniper mass killing in America and then shifts over and you just go home. You're supposed to figure out how to how do you manage? Juggle figure out how you navigate through.
Speaker 1:They did not have any kind of mental health. No, and I'm fortunate I guess I had the military experience because I qualified expert with the rifle without a lot of experience in land passes. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But went home that afternoon. You were there two or three hours. Went home because your shift was over. Wayman goes home. Then you get up the next morning and go live right back to work like nothing ever happened.
Speaker 1:Wow and. I don't know if uh, the PTSD or whatever they call it or whatever it, why I still remember it. You know, like it was yesterday. I don't know if it's uh it's probably seared into your brain.
Speaker 3:There's some images you just won't ever ever but that that's. That's. That's incredible, it's sad, it's. We've evolved, but to be involved in something like that, that'd be like being at the world trade center and then at the end of the day going well, I'll see you in the morning, see you back at work in the morning.
Speaker 2:Long day, but yeah thank you for your service.
Speaker 3:But was there ever a debrief? Anybody ever call you and hey was, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:Or just get on the horse, and but our profession has grown so much since you know, especially since you were, you know, beginning then, uh, and we and we've we talked about this on a regular basis, about mental health and about how law enforcement's grown and evolution lies. Just thankful to military for the mental health aspect. But I couldn't imagine.
Speaker 2:Going through something like that losing an officer, a fellow officer on your shift and what he left behind, and having to deal with that on a day to day basis and nobody. Nope, we had an officer with Beaumont. His partner was killed in a vehicle accident and they had, you know, officers with him 24, seven, I think for several days after the fact and you know, it's just a testament of of, I think, where we've grown and how much we need to grow. Uh, moving forward.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's getting better. It's still working progress, but it's getting better. But back then wasn't acceptable.
Speaker 1:But that's the only thing. Everybody no, but he didn't you think about it, she's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, he learned so much.
Speaker 3:Do you think when you check back in service the next day, did it cause you to view your job, your role, how you carried yourself, differently? But because you're a super grounded guy, I mean you, you're as grounded, humble as you are or was it just kind of like, well, that was a horrible, freaking day, but I go back to work. Do you feel like it changed? You were different.
Speaker 1:Probably more cautious. You know, you take for granted, you know just a job. But there's potential is there.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a whole lot to be forced to learn at the age of 22. Somebody you got an old, crusty guy. It's been around 20 years and been in shootings and maybe that's not as devastating. But 22 year old kid that's. That's a whole lot to be thrown at at one time.
Speaker 1:And then you, you know, just like walking up to staircase or going out into the lobby up there, with blood everywhere you know bodies laying there.
Speaker 3:So he had assassinated, basically the secretary and I think there's a couple of tours that was in the stairwell. And just assassinated people, man.
Speaker 2:So you finished your career obviously with Austin PD had many years after that.
Speaker 1:I left. I've worked there for nine years and I went to IBM, the retirement system. Until the state took it over. It was pretty much non-existent. It was like I was talking about Sergeant Fisher. You know he had food stamps after he retired and IBM had better benefits once you retire, and so I went to IBM and worked there for 21 years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I want to hit on transitioning away from coward Whitman on this show and it's it's a theme that we've not been intentional about really at all, but it comes up almost on every episode is young people being affected.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll say we take for granted as cops the effect that we can have on people and and even when I was younger I'm like man, community policing. That's stupid man. But that's been a theme on our show almost over and over now yeah, the impact that somebody can have on a young person's life. We had Aaron Slater, owner of relentless defender, on that said he was down and out on his way to just being a thug and a cop took an interest in him, a legit, sincere interest in him, and it turned his life around and Slater's a immensely successful, wealthy, successful national figure because one officer took a second to spend a moment with him and care about him. And you had the opportunity Was that early in your career, midway in your career?
Speaker 1:Tell, share, share with our listeners about or you talking about the association with Bruce.
Speaker 3:Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:He was in high school and he according to his daddies he wasn't interested too much and there was three of us a policeman that befriended him and gave him direction. He ended up, you know, getting through high school and his dad thanked us for influencing him. Well, he's gotten a job interested. He was accepted to play to be a guard in. Huntsville and we encourage him don't do that, you don't. You're around nothing but crud of the world and you know, go to work down the play department and so he went and these he's gotten his master's degree and he's been the assistant chief.
Speaker 1:He's been the chief. He's in several different places. You know they were putting him to work as their chief and he's just a good kid.
Speaker 3:How old were you when you were, when you were kind of mentoring and trying to help him?
Speaker 1:Well, we were. There was three of us and we're all about the same age, and it was probably 26, 27.
Speaker 3:And he's 15, 16, 17, high school kid and y'all go to a call on his house. What made his dad reach out and ask if y'all could?
Speaker 1:He worked at Sage out there and we made him out there and he just, you know, a good kid.
Speaker 2:And you guys influenced him and look at him today. You know it goes exactly back to. You know, community policing is not something new to law enforcement. It's always been around. It's just been highlighted recently because of the anti law enforcement rhetoric. But that's just confirmation that. You know good people are going to continue to be good people. It doesn't make a damn if you're a cop or a fireman or you know the the, the local meat market guy. You know good people are going to be good people and it's just confirmation that. Again, law enforcement's always had community policing. We've always had an influence on everybody and it's just said that the anti law enforcement rhetoric kicked up here recently. This, this is what needs to happen.
Speaker 3:Relationships. Yeah, relationships communication is is community policing.
Speaker 3:It's been around forever. To your point. Dad worked at Dallas said in the 60s and 70s there's a legendary captain there named Will Fritz Gappen. Fritz was a legend. And dad said, like in 70 or 72, they're um, had like a deployment working robbery, car jackings, and uh, he said he goes up or stare. And it happened all the time. But he said he goes upstairs one day and Captain Fritz said what are y'all working on? He's like oh, we got two guys that are robbing everybody and what do they drive? Well, they're in a marine Cadillac. Well, that's going to be. One of them is going to be that Washington, that Washington kid, and that's.
Speaker 3:We've been chasing them for weeks. We can't catch them. Nobody will cooperate. Family won't cooperate. Captain Fritz picks the phone up. That was a number from memory. Miss Washington, captain Fritz, down here, your boys are up to no good. They're not there, they're getting in trouble. I don't want to have to lose my dogs on them. So if you go ahead and bring them boys down here, I won't lose my dogs and dad's like for three weeks we chase their ass all over Dallas. Captain Fritz calls Mrs Washington. Miss Washington loads them up in her car, drags them up there and hands them to Captain Fritz and dad's like we chased them for the freaking three weeks.
Speaker 1:Let's community policing.
Speaker 3:That's right. He had a relationship, he had built respect. He built clack capital collateral with her that she trusted when Captain Fritz called yeah, I'm going to drag my kids up there and turn them into the police.
Speaker 2:And most likely that goes back to his patrol days too. I mean, I'm sure that's exactly how he was on the beats and Dallas and so forth. But yeah, community, that's 1971.
Speaker 3:That's community police.
Speaker 2:That's right. 100%, 100%. Well, did we ever figure out because I'm not as familiar with the story as you are, especially you what was the motive behind Whitman doing all this?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure there was a motive, he just they laid it off some time he had a tumor, but it never has been proven that that's what it was. I don't know. Pressure, I guess, as far as lack of success in college why he chose.
Speaker 2:UT.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's right. He got thrown out of college and was kind of just a turning into a flunky.
Speaker 1:I think you're going in to the Marines, but then he came back and was going to go to school, but he wasn't doing too well.
Speaker 3:Us Marines aren't very smart Sometimes.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't go say that, but I'm not a Marine so I can't.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to say I hope he didn't bring any crayons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, what do we?
Speaker 3:what do we not hit on?
Speaker 1:It's pretty much. I think covered the thing pretty well. How do you women? I'm a fit 79.
Speaker 2:79 years old. You were a, a policeman for the city of Austin, obviously, for nine years. Yeah, I think it's important. I always like to touch on this and I always like to stay if I know someone has served and, and and and. You know what's sad is the fact that military God love our men and women who serve in the United States military they do remarkable things daily. Uh, for the most part it's it's unseen because they're not amongst.
Speaker 2:You know the civilian life, but when policemen serve their communities and and and what I said earlier about your retire, you did retire, you didn't.
Speaker 2:You didn't get back in law enforcement, but you're not you know, quote unquote retired because you didn't have that retirement at the end of your stuff with Austin PD.
Speaker 2:And so, for instance, veterans who serve four years, two years, however long, they're considered veterans from that point forward. So you're a 79 year old man that served the city of Austin as a policeman and I think it's so important for us and our generation to, number one, highlight that. Number two, thank you for your service and and have these types of discussions because your career is not defined by that newspaper. Your career is defined by nine years of dedicated service to the citizens of Austin, just like your success story by you talking to that young man that day. That's just one of so many lives that you had an impact on in nine years and so, from a guy that was in law enforcement for 20 years now serves with TNPA. Thank you, um. I think it's important again for the listeners out there to stop and do that when you know that somebody has served retired. Whammy's generation needs that and I think it's important for us to start recognizing that and doing more of a job of that.
Speaker 3:Well, and it's a testament to that a lot of young people, I think, can take a lot from because I've known you for 15 or 16 years, probably 17 years. A lot of this I didn't know and to know the quiet, humble guy you are. You went on with life. His family, sitting in here, raised a beautiful family and he didn't allow this to define him, he didn't allow it to break him. He's managed. We all figure out our way to manage through it, but to go on and have three kids, beautiful wife, a marriage that's lasted 56 years, which is unheard of, unfortunately.
Speaker 3:Now I think it's a testament. There's a lot of 22 year old kids that could learn a whole lot, yeah, from what has gone on and things of our. What is it If we don't? We don't remember our past, we're doomed to repeat it, or we're doomed to repeat it. There's a whole lot that has been laid as a foundation from generations before. And wayman, I've always expected he's just like the quiet, humble hero, because that's some real man, tough shit that we're on that day 100%, and he's as good as he's, as good as they come.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know if you've ever watched the blue grade episode and I'm not going to be upset by this because you probably never drove what I like to highlight, my vehicles, but we always like to end the episodes with three, three, what do you call it? Rapid fire?
Speaker 3:questions Fire questions.
Speaker 2:Are you ready? Did you study for the questions? Yes you did. The Clint lets you in on the secret of what to answer.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So the three questions. Question one Well, you're a cop, You're supposed to write what's your favorite line from a cop movie or cop movie?
Speaker 1:Make my day. Make my day, that was Wednesday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right Way to guess on Wednesday is like yeah, I think, make my days my line, yep 100%.
Speaker 2:And then you watch your what was your favorite patrol car you drove during your time of service, or what's your favorite police car.
Speaker 1:As far as the performance, other than when you turn the corner, the thing that died was 69. Ford had 429.
Speaker 2:It's a Ford, though. There's a Ford though, right, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:They had a Plymouth early on and not the Belvedere was a 318 or whatever it is and we had off the highway. But they had some pretty good running Plymouth.
Speaker 2:Just so we're clear. They didn't have Crown Vicks back then.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, it was at 59. I mean 69. It was.
Speaker 2:it was a nice car, yeah but it was a Ford, I was. Clint loves Chevy Caprices and it's kind of become a little battle between he and I.
Speaker 1:This thing got after a burger one time. This new forms every time I turned the corner of the car would die. And that's that carburetion. We were doing good.
Speaker 3:But let's move on to the next question. I don't want to talk about. Ford died in the middle of the, so was it three on the tree?
Speaker 1:No, it is automatic.
Speaker 3:Automatic, have air conditioning.
Speaker 1:Yeah Dang.
Speaker 2:I gotta tell you a funny story about Dallas PD and about air conditioning. I forget the guy's name, but he taught our Academy class and he said that the first write up he ever got in his police career cookie. No, he went on to be a. They called him Dr Dune. The guy looked really oh, I'll leave that. Yeah, I'll leave that alone.
Speaker 2:But his first write up with DPD he didn't have any AC air conditions in the vehicle and I guess there's an ice plant in Dallas. And so him and his partner had the idea. Well, by God, they've written letters to the sergeant and lieutenant, the captain, and nobody's listening to him. So he said hell with this, and put around the backseat of the patrol car and every day during summertime it'd go by that ice plant, get a big ass block of ice. There's some bitches had AC, you hear me. So they leave the render, drill down. And that that was his first ride up. So I got was a ride up, so it wouldn't happen today. It wouldn't happen. Awesome, what's your favorite drink of choice? Um, water, water, okay, all right.
Speaker 3:Or blue man with the whole orange.
Speaker 2:I love some blue moon. I love some blue moon man. You got anything else?
Speaker 3:I appreciate you coming down. I've wanted to do this for a long while. Oh, there's going to be photos that pop up. Several years ago, four, five, three, four, five years ago, um, a friend contacted me and said that he had bought Whitman's arsenal in an auction. Um, I reached out to Louis family asking if that's something that he would want to see, would it not? Be, he did. So we got to take Whitman's arsenal. I didn't know the story of him shooting at the weapon trying to take it out of the battery.
Speaker 3:We show up, we're unpacking, booing knife, transistor radio, I think, a pistol, a couple of rifles a shot and pull a rifle out with a round through the barrel, um, and he's like I see the lights go off, and that's how I learned the story of him trying to shoot at weapons to take the battery. So everybody images will show it's awesome of him shooting at Whitman and then him a couple of years ago holding the rifle that was shot that day. That's a bad ass. Uh, I thought we better explain those pictures when they pop up, yeah, of how that occurred. How was that? Was that weird?
Speaker 1:Well, I never knew it. I knew it Fire that it didn't know it was it. I noticed he'd taken it down. Was it surreal seeing them holding them? And I would have liked to have the rifle just for keepsake. He was one way too much. I've got a picture. That's a whole lot of people, yeah.
Speaker 3:So that explains the pictures. I thought we better explain how, how, in modern time, he's holding that. You got anything else, brother? I got nothing.
Speaker 2:Man, uh, thanks for coming down. I always liked meeting new friends and I think we uh, you know we came here as strangers and we're leaving as friends, so thank you again. Thank you for your service to the citizens of Austin, thank you for your service in military, and you got a wonderful family, um, so thank you for coming down, appreciate it, man.
Speaker 3:You guys do this a long time and thank you for Lewis family for being not but great friends also, but for making sure this, this happened. And you guys, yeah, come down 100% enjoyed it. Yeah, love you guys dearly Yep, yep.
Speaker 2:You guys. Stay safe out there. Uh, you know it's getting worse, it's it's it's in the winter months and typically that's when we see an increase in violence against law enforcement. So stay safe and, as always, and God bless you and God bless Texas, we're out.
