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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#048- "DPD Sgt. Keith Wenzel"
Fasten your seatbelts as we ride with Keith Wenzel, a retired Dallas Sgt. with an impressive 30-year tenure under his belt. There's no holding back as Keith recounts his adventurous journey from serving in the Marine Corps to realizing his childhood dream of becoming a cop. His passion for training and teaching is infectious as he shares his experiences with Calibre Press and his ongoing role as an influential voice on our podcast. This isn't your everyday police story; it's a unique opportunity to hear firsthand about the highs, lows, triumphs, and tribulations of life in law enforcement.
Listen for of-the-moment insider insights, framed by the rapidly changing social and...
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
One night a narcotic sergeant called me and said I need two of your best people for a take down. I told him. I said his name is JJ. I said, jj, can you make that traffic stop on another division, because I don't really have two of the best for what you're wanting to do? And that was a slide on me. I should have spent more time training. That's what leaders do, is they make sure, just like a coach would make sure your people have the right equipment, the right training, the right mindset?
Speaker 2:Welcome back Blue Grit podcast listeners, followers, boy your design, your host, tyler Owen. Welcome Clinton McNeer.
Speaker 3:What's going on. Just finished Thanksgiving a little bit fatter and fuller.
Speaker 2:It was a good weekend. It's a good weekend You've had. A right now is for those listeners that do not live, reside in Texas. Football is still king here, and we are happy to announce that Clint sun is there in the playoffs, and so we're hoping to bring home a state title to the 40 community 5 AD one.
Speaker 3:We're about four rounds deep, three rounds, four rounds deep.
Speaker 2:So furry the furry jackrabbit the fighting jackrabbit. I'm sorry, the fighting fighting jackrabbit. Fighting jackrabbit. That's five A one, district two, one. Yeah, yes, I think district two, I think so.
Speaker 4:Anyway, maybe one of this, two by four, two by six.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this episode comes out though the furry, I mean, excuse me, the fighting jackrabbit. So be state champions.
Speaker 3:Yes, how was your Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2:It was good. Good, uh, you know, we've made the transition down to Wembley and Thanksgiving for my family has always kind of traditionally been, uh, more of a party with the family and we all get together. And so, uh, my cousin made the trip from powderling, which is up near Paris, and my mom and dad came down and it was a great Thanksgiving. We, uh, we hung out and did our thing, so he got to see Frederick Spurge on Saturday. Oh cool, uh, never been to Hill Country. So we just, uh, we Hill Country it up, man.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:It was great Good times.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We have an old president, a former TNPA president, past president, I should say, james Babb, who has uh, we've been wanting you to come on for a while now.
Speaker 3:We've been wanting you for a while now.
Speaker 4:We have been wanting you for a while. I like it when you put it that way. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:How you been.
Speaker 4:Been great man.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the blue grid stage, dude.
Speaker 4:Indeed. This is uh impressive.
Speaker 2:What were you saying earlier? What do you want to repeat about the room?
Speaker 4:Um, yeah it, uh, it's really nice. It's much smaller than what you see in that camera.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, smaller Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, nice shot that every guest gives and they show up here. I really expected it to be a lot larger in person.
Speaker 4:Yeah, If you'll extend me a little latitude real quick. Yeah, the uh, because I've been a listener, a watcher, a voyeur of pretty much every episode and until today, before we started, and I got to see Clint out there laying down that baseline that you hear in the beginning with the picture montage, and then he just just calmly stashed that base on the side of the room. It's amazing, nothing shorter Amazing. I'm not going to say he's this cool, but I've heard that he pees ice cubes.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, this is great. I got nothing.
Speaker 3:Thank you for joining us today. That's a wrap. Appreciate you having us on here.
Speaker 2:Yeah you, you had been a loyal listener. I will. Are you a listener or a watcher?
Speaker 4:It depends on where I am Depends on where you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:A lot of times I'll turn it on in the car because they drop just about the time I'm headed into work.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Um, but otherwise, if I'm, if I get to work, then I'll pop it up on the old computer and watch it. Well, for you.
Speaker 2:For you listeners out there, there is the YouTube channel, and that's what we typically push on social media platforms and it has some you know some great stories. This is the episode we had with Lieutenant Colonel Darling. Uh, you know, be roll over that so you can kind of visually see what we're talking about. So it's just the YouTube's a really good platform and we're starting to kind of get the hang of it this little bit. But for you watchers, we're also on Spotify, amazon music, uh, apple podcasts and and, uh, those links are are on our, uh, our website.
Speaker 3:Comment down below if you're a watcher or listener. I'm curious because I'm a visual person and I fall asleep audio only. So, like, even when I'm driving, I have YouTube going just just because I'm watching somebody Joe Rogan's guest I just want to see what they look like.
Speaker 2:What you're paying attention to the roadway, I'm watching the road for you motor jocks out there that just got excited for saying that.
Speaker 3:I just wanted to defend you and I just got insurance again and my license didn't suspended it or just FY looking out for you. So just comment below if you're a watcher or listener. I'm curious.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Well, you came on. Today You're going to be co-hosting with us. Uh, you recommended this guy and uh, who also was recommended by Joe King, uh, by the ATO, the.
Speaker 4:Joe King yeah.
Speaker 2:And so uh, intro sexiest man in Dallas.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah. Shout out to Joe King for throwing me under the bus on Friday, but that's a whole nother.
Speaker 3:It'd be good B roll. We could roll. It would be good B roll.
Speaker 2:I will put that in the in the in the deal right today.
Speaker 4:So today with us is Keith Winsall. Keith has 30 years with Dallas with 32 active and 10 reserve. And he is, uh, or was with caliber press for many years and is an absolutely phenomenal instructor. Um, when I took over as president, uh, the, the instructions I gave for the training were if Keith Winsall is available, you book him, and then here's your backups. And luckily he was able to make it.
Speaker 2:So, and that was uh comp, that which conference was that you were?
Speaker 1:in Houston about five, five or six years ago, 2017.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, cool, well, man, we use a kickoff where you got started, at how you got started law enforcement, who the hell are you and and where you grew up, and let's, let's, let's dive off into it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I'm 67 years old, so this could take a while. It could take a while.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm a start with day one, and let's just cover every day.
Speaker 2:We had one guest started at conception. We would not like to hear that again. So if you want to start off with at birth, not conception.
Speaker 3:Just started a birth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we did grow up in a Dallas area, Carrollton with the high school there, um went to the Marine Corps after high school.
Speaker 4:It's always great. Okay, shut it down. Yeah, you knew that. You knew that going into this, I had forgotten that fact, to be honest with you. That's why we put them on that side of the table.
Speaker 3:Yeah, natalie, you can just keep the camera over here and we'll just cut to the shot and we don't need to Yep.
Speaker 1:It is sad that everybody's jealous, aren't they? Yeah, I did my three years and always wanted. Even my mother always said that I wanted to be a policeman when I grew up and uh, obviously I attained that goal. Um, when I got out of the Marines, I went to work. Initially, I went to work, believe it or not, in Carrollton as a community service officer. Now, it wasn't 21 yet.
Speaker 1:Um went to college, was working at Carrollton as a civilian community service officer. Uh, when I turned 21, I applied in Irving, got hired and worked there from about 78 to middle of 82, uh always wanted to be a Dallas police officer. When I was in Carrollton as a community service officer, they let me go to the Dallas police reserve academy on my own time and naturally, as a 20, 20 year old, I jumped at that and had that desire to go back to Dallas police. So, uh, in 82, I applied to Dallas and and that was the start of my Dallas police career, and it lasted from 82 until 2013,. Um retired and uh went to work for caliber press full time and continued teaching until I moved down to the Georgetown area in about 2016, 2017. How long was?
Speaker 2:the academy back then.
Speaker 1:Um, I went to the sheriff's academy first and it was literally about eight or nine weeks. Um, the Dallas police academy was about 13 weeks.
Speaker 2:Dallas County.
Speaker 1:Dallas County County Sheriff's office. Yes, I got you. The police academy was about 13 weeks, I believe, a lot different than it is today.
Speaker 2:So it was split. It was split, the academies were split, is that?
Speaker 1:well, no, I went to the sheriff's academy for Irving so I was already certified. But when you hire in Dallas, you're going to go to their police academy. So that was an 82. So you got a twofold. I got you and including the reserve. The reserve was about six months, but you know, it's just like two nights a week and some Saturdays.
Speaker 2:At what point the DP and you may not be able to comment on this or not, but, um, we had the lick lighter. Uh, I have the lick lighter as the FTO. Uh, great guy great guy. That's outstanding, all the production that DPD did. You know I do videos for TNPA and I couldn't imagine doing that stuff, you know, full time, and it looked like it was. I mean, they're, they're basically movies. Yes, was that, back on, your problem when you went to the academy?
Speaker 1:Actually it was, um no, they. They didn't do too many when I first started, but within about two to three years, um lick ladder was up at the academy as a corporal and he was putting out videos and I went back to the academy as a class advisor and so there's some of the videos that you can still pull up, probably that. You know, I was kind of a a trainer, helper or something like that, but yeah, they did a great job putting those videos out classics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they were. They were really good. Yeah, I'm trying to think of the other guy. Who's the other one? Uh, the other 80 style training videos that.
Speaker 1:Well, john Smith was in the air corporal. John Smith um lick lighter, let's see Um. That was before the time Popkins and others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was. I was only born in 84.
Speaker 3:Well, when you said what other 80s films were out there, I could see James Babs like Ron Jeremy. No, not Ron Jeremy.
Speaker 2:Oh, I see where this is going, so yeah, so, let me check my book Martin.
Speaker 3:So let's back up a quick set. Growing up in Carrollton, um, your mom told you you kind of had always wanted to be a police officer. Was there interaction with law enforcement? Was there a family member Was there? Did you just remember seeing Carrollton officers and thinking man I'd like to do that someday.
Speaker 1:You know, believe it or not, I did. I babysat for a Carrollton officer and my mother worked with his wife, and so my interaction with Carrollton I did have some. Um, bill Fuller was I think he was a sergeant then and I went to school with his son, billy Fuller. So I did know some police officers and of course in Carrollton it wasn't very big back then, trust me, you got to know the police officers if you drove a car and so and I was, I would say, a good kid. I got caught quite a bit, but I was a good kid.
Speaker 3:Good at getting caught. Good at getting caught.
Speaker 1:Yes, so I had an interaction. Uh, I will tell you this real quick story though my best friend, mike. We were in a car with a couple of girls. We met on Forest Lane and, uh, I didn't know it, but he didn't have a driver's license that he could drive at night and I know that sounds funny, but it was a provisional at the time and the police he had a headlight out and the police turned around and he took off and it was the first police chase I've ever been in in the backseat and he missed a turn on a road that said County Road and we hit the sign and didn't do too much damage. But the police came up and I learned their techniques very quickly and it was a lot different in about 1973 than it is today.
Speaker 1:And I was. I was pulled. When they say out of the vent window, well, there was a small window in the back but I swear I came out of it. That's awesome. It was great Pre felony stop and at that point I did want to be a policeman. Really, really bad.
Speaker 2:And I got asked this the other day. I don't know where we were at, but for those that don't know where Carolton is that if you're not listening, or in Texas, it's just, it's a suburb of Dallas, uh, north Dallas, maybe five or six miles.
Speaker 1:I mean it butts up to the city limits of Dallas.
Speaker 2:At that point when you grew up, probably a very, I wouldn't say small town, but it was probably, you know, 20 or 30,000 population at that point.
Speaker 1:Barely Probably.
Speaker 2:But now it's pushing what? 160, 200 plus I would think so, just to kind of give you a correlation of uh for you listeners out there.
Speaker 3:So no, no law enforcement in your family.
Speaker 1:None.
Speaker 3:What was your MLS? The Marine Corps 1141.
Speaker 1:And this sounds weird, but I was by trade an electrician. But when I was sent to an air wing, I worked on a catapult where we launched airplanes. We trained pilots, uh, on a catapult system, to go out to ship so they could land and take off on a catapult.
Speaker 2:And it's like the slingshot thing. You see, the top guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was in California. There was only two of them at that time on the East coast and West coast, and so every pilot probably West of Mississippi had to come to El Toro to be trained and go through the catapult and then they go out on a ship.
Speaker 3:So no Ellie in the Marine Corps. Was it during the time in the Marine Corps where you thought, okay, am I in the back to services, coming up I'm going to do the police thing, or did you get out of the Marine Corps and still trying to figure out what you wanted to do?
Speaker 1:No, I still wanted, uh, even in the Marine Corps, the uniform, the discipline, the whole process was something I I was attracted to. So, yes, and ironically, I'm a that's probably the wrong word but I got married. Um, when I was 18, I married my high school sweetheart, suzanne. We dated all through high school and so, after bootcamp and after my training, we got married and so we lived in California. Um, naturally, we wanted to come back to Texas as soon as we could, and there wasn't a base in Texas for Marines.
Speaker 3:Very good. So you get back home. End of active service, get out of the Marine Corps. Hit Carrollton as a held area at the time. I'm 20 years old. So In back then you could be a cop, just couldn't buy bullets. But you apply at Carrollton and become a community service officer right Carrollton had a four-year degree at that time and I know kidding all the way back then they did all the way back then.
Speaker 1:Wow, so I knew I wouldn't have a four-year degree. For several years I was, you know, using the GI Bill going to college. Yeah but the desire to be a policeman at 21 was far greater than waiting in Carrollton for the four-year degree. And what year was that? 78.
Speaker 2:Wow, I did not know anybody was a crime of where you had just discussed this last episode that's gonna be debuting, surely about the benefits of having degrees versus not, and and you Looking back on it now I'm sure Carolton, which they would have probably waved that with your A great career and you going on to teach for caliber press, I mean it's just a testament really of sometimes you know requirements should be taken in consideration over experience.
Speaker 1:Well, I was young and we all look back and say at 21, was I really that matured to be a policeman? And looking back, this is to say I wasn't at the time, of course, naturally I thought I was. But but I do believe college is College or military, both give you that discipline and that it's good to have work experience.
Speaker 3:I'm 51 and Tyler said I'm not mature enough to be a cop so. I said that it hurt my feelings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been accused of the same thing.
Speaker 2:Bad wants to weigh in on this. I can see his face.
Speaker 4:Well, I'm the only one still carrying a badge. I know I'm still not Still not there but I keep telling them I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep showing up, and until I find a real job, yeah, I thought you were, until I got that picture sent to me by Joe King. Where's is it gonna go right here?
Speaker 2:No, it's gonna go the full screen. Oh okay, full screen Centerfold. I'm gonna do it every time.
Speaker 4:I want to play the QR code game.
Speaker 3:We call it a centerfold.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I'm off into Carrollton, so you, you're working there, you go to that DPD. Where would you obviously start off? In patrol, sure, and then where do your career kind of end up? A DPD.
Speaker 1:You know I loved and this goes back to the TV show Adam 12. I just loved patrol. Yeah, and so I spent, you know, the first, I guess seven years or so working patrol Northwest Division. Even in patrol you could do other things. We had a deployment squad, so it's kind of an undercover, covert squad. I did that for a couple times in a couple years and this sounds strange, but I never had the desire to be on the SWAT team and of course back then it was called tactical but now it's called SWAT.
Speaker 2:But my best friend, joey Fox, went and several officers from Northwest had transferred to the SWAT team real quick If you can kind of give the listener, the viewer of, an idea of where Northwest it was then when you were there, where that division, the boundaries were okay, everything north of I-30 and everything east pretty much of of stemments but a little bit further, like maybe the tollway okay and Like the Harry Hines Bachman Lake, that area love field was all northwest Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what was there?
Speaker 1:probably four channels back then, northeast, northwest, southeast, five there were five, and then somewhere, probably about I Don't know 86, 87 created the north-central and it took some of the northwest division away.
Speaker 2:Wow, Well, how, how was that special unit working back then, especially in the 80s, and it?
Speaker 1:we were called the tennis you squad. It was crazy a great time to do proactive policing. Just we had a lot of things that we did. You know, watch Burglars that we knew were burglars and do surveillance and just a lot. It wasn't dope Focused but it surrounded dope a lot.
Speaker 2:What shift would that look like when you show up to work and what give us kind of a detail of how that would look?
Speaker 1:You know, some things are still under the.
Speaker 1:Okay well, we had rented junk's and we'd come to work. It were the work evenings or they went to squads days and evenings. You know about four of us worked and we had different ideas of what we were looking for. Stolen cars were great. If patrol found a stolen car we'd sit up on it. We took that occupied and the patrol guys loved that.
Speaker 1:Our lieutenant called accused us one time of manufacturing crime where we had an old pickup truck. We'd put the hood up and put tires in the back and back. Then reaching in the back of a pickup truck was a felony and we got some tires from a tire dealer the first set we got these suspects told them and the chase didn't last very long but they got away and we lost the tires and one of the officers who knew the guy at the tire store. We went back and this time he gave us some old tires cleaned up with stickers on them, because it didn't matter what the value of the tires were, it just mattered that they reached in.
Speaker 1:We had boxes in that said tools. There were no tools in it. There were bricks, you know TV boxes that said TVs, but there were no TVs in it. But we put that hood up and Sit back on it. In a smooth car and with the squad cars would sit hidden somewhere and of course, as soon as somebody grabbed those boxes, it was chase on, it was on it was on and we're talking about old school eyes-on surveillance, not some of the Do now like you know the word old school.
Speaker 1:I was accused the other day of being old school and I said no, no, I think I'm Old Testament.
Speaker 2:There's a difference you know it's funny you're here if this is being talked about. I think you and I were together Several months ago and I did not know this, but the first piece of legislation that TNPA was a part of, yeah, happen to be Burglar motor vehicle, and you sure you mentioned reaching inside the bed of the truck. Was it felony of them? So yes, that was TNPA's monumental piece of legislation. Apparently was Burglar motor vehicle theft, theft from a vehicle or that from parked vehicle or something. However, it was boarded way back then when bad was to our young, a young lad.
Speaker 3:Sorry, but I think I think it was breaking the plane breaking the plane so if you break the plane from the bed of the truck, technically you entered the vehicle yeah it was a great.
Speaker 1:So the chief back then, probably Prince Prince initially yes, okay was a great chief, was great, great, great, great, great chief. Yeah, they supported law enforcement back then.
Speaker 3:Administrations community. Everybody supported the police back then. They wanted the bad guys caught. Yes, so Work deployment where to from that? That was at Northwest working to pull it.
Speaker 1:Northwest. Well, as I told you, a Good friend went to SWAT and you know every day would call and say this is a great job in the world.
Speaker 3:These Dallas issue hair gel when you go to SWAT, or does that you have to buy your own?
Speaker 1:at that time yeah, it was the hairdryers. The longer hair, it was fashionable the product was issued.
Speaker 3:Hair product yes, and hairdryers.
Speaker 1:Yeah and we got to use the bathroom alone. Petro was you know how? That goes, yeah, yeah all those ribbing you know here. But so of course I I interviewed, got the position and spend about five years on the SWAT team. Very nice, from about 88 to 93 when I made sergeant.
Speaker 2:Beepers were probably not even around then, so what would that look like when you were on call? I mean, how would that, how would that work?
Speaker 1:Well, and somebody put on Facebook the other day a long article about Equipment we had and the things that you know. We had vest that had Velcro that was so worn out it was given to us by the military right that you had to actually hold the straps together with one hand while you held your either shotgun or we had MP5s at that time. I don't know if they still make that weapon, but that's what. We had no helmets. We eventually got some helmets.
Speaker 1:So if you were the rookie on the squad when you had to look in the attic, guess who sick their head up in the attic first? Yeah, it was so nice getting somebody new on the squad. Trust me, just that, just that peekaboo up in the attic was scary, as I'll get out without a helmet. And and we actually took PVC pipe and made a flashlight holder so that we could stick a flashlight. You know we didn't have any equipment like you thinking today, where you have microphones. We had radios, those big brick radios. It was pretty basic but quite frankly, we did a really good job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what years on? Swat was that? About 88 through 93 is that gonna be pre-claggett?
Speaker 1:Um, it was, yeah. You know what. Claggett may have come right about the time I left, but he was in narcotics before he went to, that's right.
Speaker 4:So what now? The SWAT is gonna like the Bible run. It's like the Old Testament is pretty claggett.
Speaker 3:Yeah, everything else is a new testament. Yeah, I got you.
Speaker 1:I will give him some credit. When I taught around the country, people come up and say, hey, this clay good, you know him. I say, yeah, I know him was really that good and I say he was probably half as good as he thought he was, but that's pretty good to begin with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's some. There has been some incredible. Incredible guys come through Dallas. What. I'll agree with that. A lot of incredible guys have come through Dallas. What they've been fortunate.
Speaker 1:Well, and of course, some of them are still training around the country, yeah, right now. So that's, that's a testament to the training in Dallas police department.
Speaker 1:Yep when to from there. I made sergeant in 93 and I tell you this funny story. I took the test, I didn't study and I should have but I didn't, but I passed it with the lowest score you could get passing. And then we had the assessment center and I had a part-time job that day that I was going to the assessment center and I almost didn't go because At the hotel, if you, that whole day you had to stay sequestered. So I was a first group in at like seven o'clock. I wouldn't get out there till two o'clock and I thought I am not sitting here all day long being at the bottom of the list. But I'm jokingly gonna say this but going through the assessment center apparently I Bullshitted somebody. Can you say that?
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that BS came out pretty good for it, so I did go to the assessment center. I did pass it very well and climbed up on the list and got promoted so promoting means you have to leave SWAT.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay, yeah, go back patrol go back to patrol backbone.
Speaker 2:Where'd you? Where'd you get transferred to.
Speaker 1:Southeast is the furthest I would. I lived in Coppell Suburban wow, suburbance inside of the world. Oh yeah, and they do that on purpose, I believe you know where does he work, where does he live. Let's give him some time to think about it.
Speaker 3:No, because we love you.
Speaker 1:we're doing this for you, yeah, for you deep nights at Southeast and Six months there I went, transferred back to Northwest, naturally closer to home, obviously the drive was was a killer real quick.
Speaker 2:We can give us the batteries of Southeast for those that don't know at that point in time, because they've changed over the years.
Speaker 1:Okay, somewhere around I 35 East and somewhere around I well I 30 south.
Speaker 3:So all the way down to box springs all the suburb Cities and we call that area the devil's triangle, sigaville, box Springs.
Speaker 4:I've also heard Sillyville.
Speaker 1:Yes, it might be calm someone that worked there from you to try and go Pleasant.
Speaker 3:Grove, sigaville, garland, box Springs pretty much all crime emanates from.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and you guys talk a lot about leadership On this podcast and I will tell you, I was promoted sergeant 2017 and and the guy sitting across the table for me has given me so much on leadership because that's who I would lean on when I want.
Speaker 1:I. This is all your fault. I apologize.
Speaker 4:Don't tell him I said anything good about it. Yeah, we will hope we'll keep it all secret, yeah when I you come to some decision-making in leadership roles and, and you know, when I got stuck, I always had his phone number and that's that's one of the first calls I would make when I, when I was struggling well.
Speaker 1:Thanks for that compliment, but you know, being a police sergeant Was my goal when I got in law enforcement. That was what I wanted to do and it came from being a Marine. I was actually a Marine Sergeant too. I made it in less than three years. But the Marine Corps instills that leadership principle if you take care of your people, make decisions and you know Police sergeant working the evenings and nights, you have mainly young officers and it's a huge it's the biggest challenge there is in leadership To manage young police officers who know very little but are eager to learn. So that was a dream come true.
Speaker 2:So so at this point at Dallas PD and, as you can, we can kind of compare Plano and and and DPD at that point in time so on a shift y'all would show up for briefing and there how many sergeants would be in that sector, lieutenant's, and then how many patrol officers would be under you, or kind of tell us how that would work with Dallas at that point.
Speaker 1:Well, well, theoretically I'll use Northwest. I had generally about eight to ten officers that worked for me. So, but we might have at least three sergeants working at a time. We might go down to two very seldom, but three sergeants working other stations like. So. I worked at Southwest. I worked at every substation except North East. I moved around quite a bit and I jokingly say a Couple, not by choice, but, but most of them were by choice, okay, when we got the bid process. So so depends where you worked. But, like Southwest, we had a lot more officers. We had 127 officers on third watch on the evening shift we had 13 sergeants not keep in mind some, not all of them are gonna be there on the same day, rotating days off. So you could have close to 40, 50 officers working and maybe two or three sergeants working. Wow, a lot of you stayed busy.
Speaker 3:So, dissecting the leadership, we had a Marine on a couple weeks ago. I was a lieutenant colonel, flew Marine one and we talked with him about it and I'm always curious Discussing leadership and there's the debate about are you born a leader or is it something that you can develop and grow in and there's value in both sides of it. But when did Keith know, was it in the Marines, as you became a sergeant, that you had some leadership abilities in the Communication and charisma to lead people? Or was that something that you made sergeant and they're like, here you go? You're gonna have to start figuring out how to lead these crazy-ass Marines around, or you know, it has to be a little bit of both.
Speaker 1:I don't know that people are actually born to be leaders. I mean that that sounds great, but but you, you, you develop your leadership skills through other people and you know, as a young police officer, you're working for different sergeants. You're what you're seeing Lieutenant's, you're seeing chiefs, you're seeing all kinds of rank, and you do, you cherry pick the good and the bad, and that's what makes you a successful Leader eventually. And I don't think anybody you know gets promoted on day one and and automatically has those skills and ability. It's, it's a developed knack.
Speaker 3:So when did you realize you had an aptitude to Lead and it's something? When you got in the police department, you said you always wanted to be a patrol sergeant. When in life did you realize I'm a D, a Decent example in how to help lead people? When was that?
Speaker 1:I'd have to say, after I made sergeant, even though, like even on the SWAT team, you know we dealt with a lot of patrol officers and I always like to take the initiative. If they were, you know, like on the on the perimeter or something, keeping them on the scene as long as possible, we're typically, you know, we'd come in and they'd relieve all the patrol guys. And to me, that's part of leadership is in influencing others and being that person. You know there was always that division between SWAT and everybody else and it probably still is today. But, you know, through the synergy of Dealing with people and enjoying other people, I think that's what makes leadership Good, and standing up for what's right and wrong at the time, even though it may have an impact on your own personal career. And that's why I go back into being transferred. A couple of times, you know, I voiced an opinion as to what, how things should be and apparently it wasn't always received as well as I thought it should have been. But but a transfer is a transfer.
Speaker 3:Got you, no president. Hey, when did you?
Speaker 4:And we need to fix that right away. I'm a has been.
Speaker 3:When did you what leadership look like for you? When? When was that that you thought?
Speaker 1:man.
Speaker 3:I'm. I'm enjoying this. I can, I can do this.
Speaker 4:There. There had been a few scenes where there wasn't any leadership around at the time, so I would, just, I would take that role, Um, but I will say that, uh, the the day I got promoted, I came home, Um, my wife was at my promotional ceremony and I remember sitting on the couch and looking at her and going you know, now I don't have a choice of, hey, I'll step up and lead here, it's on me, and that that hit pretty hard for me, Uh, but, but one of the biggest things and I think I may have talked to Keith about this is, uh, the shift that I had. I had nine officers when I got sent back tonight's and if I take one guy out of that equation, I had more experience than all of them put together.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow.
Speaker 4:So one of the things I didn't realize was how much sleep I would lose over them, like something happening to them on my watch.
Speaker 3:That was that's when leadership really hit me like, like a freight train, Yep, just carrying that weight.
Speaker 2:And that's the things that people don't see. The line level employees that you know they may, they may listen to this, that that that look at their sergeants just as somebody's going to sign off on a vacation request or somebody that that's going to pull you in and to your ass out, for you know, messing up on a call, or they don't really take value into shit. My sergeant really does care about me and that's probably because the ones that don't shouldn't but and they're out there.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, yeah, they're out there.
Speaker 2:Uh, but yeah, I think that in my short time of being a leadership, I think that that's what I took away from that was give back and be the leader that I saw people that weren't in my time, Just as you said.
Speaker 4:I don't think. I don't think and I was in this, this boat too I don't think that the line level folks understand how much people that want to be good leaders agonize over that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Truly agonize over it and internalize it.
Speaker 3:When Tyler brought up a good point, I think a sergeant just proves a day off or gives them an ass tune, and we get legal calls sometime of. Well, my sergeant got onto me what can you do about it? Or my lieutenant got onto me or told me I was lazy, what are y'all going to do about it? And it's I. It may be as counterintuitive or just because I'm a refer on the edges, but I would rather my sergeant call me in and chew me out and help me fix the problem, cause the easy way out is just to give me a written reprimand or put me on a performance improvement plan or documented counseling that I screwed up or I wrecked, you know, tore a rim off a police car, and I think there's more value in somebody that takes the time to actually call you in and talk to you about it, cause these you're out as type up a quick little memo, I'm going to drop it in your file and you're screwed. And you get a few more of these and you're done.
Speaker 3:I'd rather you call me in and tell me hey man, you've been in two wrecks in a month, you more on. Slow down a little bit. I love you and you're doing a good job but freaking slow down yet You're going to kill yourself. I find more value in that. It may hurt my pride for a moment, but I would appreciate that for Malita, rather than a quick memo going one more wreck and you're done full.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm going to, and I'll say this when legal calls like that do happen. You know my response is pretty much the same Uh, it's not illegal to work at a shitty department. And believe these, believe all of us there is a lot of departments in Texas that are hiring right now. So if you're not happy, and if you're really the sole person that's not happy at ADC and you're having some problems, don't be afraid to venture out there and look at other departments that are better fit for you, that are a better fit for your personality or better work ethic. Uh, so I mean, look at planos, plano, plano, pd, space guilt and it, it, it and Chevy, um, but if you work at other, departments.
Speaker 4:what I've heard, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Uh, but yeah, don't be afraid to venture out there and find a department that's that's a better fit for you. They're all hiring.
Speaker 4:They're all hiring and Clint, that was actually a great segue. If I can, if I can grab the rudder for a second.
Speaker 3:why did that for you, please, sir?
Speaker 4:Um, you know, slow down, you idiot.
Speaker 3:So where I got, to you said I feel like you're saying that to me.
Speaker 4:Was it? We made icons? Did it come through? I got it, it's received, sir yeah. As where I actually got to meet Keith was at his beyond the cones class in Fort Worth in 20. She's probably 2013.
Speaker 1:Could have been you.
Speaker 4:So yeah, 10 years ago, Um, but a phenomenal class, Um, one that I wound up going to the train the trainer and instructor that at my department and other places. But one of the things I wanted to add on to that is what I had already told you as a phenomenal instructor, but I don't think you're going to find anybody more passionate about trying to save officers lives than than the man sitting next to you and what was?
Speaker 3:the title of class. It sounded like you said be on the cone.
Speaker 4:Be on the cones, cones.
Speaker 3:Got you.
Speaker 1:You know you can tie this thing with leadership. When I became a sergeant of course I'd been an FTO train many rookies, um, on the SWAT team, you know, we did training all the time and we self trained and we trained with each other. So I had a knack for not only not only wanting to be a trainer, but doing a good job at it. Um, when I became a sergeant, I took the responsibility of making sure I could coach my troops. My people had the best training they could get, and sometimes you have to do it on your own, and that's what a sergeant should be doing is evaluating their people. I mean, one night a narcotics sergeant called me, says I need two of your best people for a takedown. And I looked at the roll call and this isn't a slam to the police department, but I looked at the roll call and the guys were working. That day I told him. I said, uh, his name is JJ. I said JJ, can you make that traffic stop on another division, because I don't really have two of the best for what you're wanting to do? Um, and that was a slide on me. I should have spent more time training. Um, but that's what leaders do, is they make sure, just like a coach would make sure your people have the right equipment, the right training, the right mindset. And so that segue into wanting to be like the trainer, um, and go back to when I started, uh, teaching the beyond the cones.
Speaker 1:But I taught PVOC, which a lot of people call evoc, police driving um back in the late nineties. And if I can tell you this part of it, I could not. I get car sick real easy. And I told the, uh, the head trainer was um kind of Corpo Navarro, and I told him. He said well, I want you to do this for me. You know, train these rookies on this track.
Speaker 1:And I told him. I said I don't know if I can do that because going around the track makes me sick. Sitting in the right hand seat, he said I'll know, you'll be fine. We're about two laps, I can tell you. I threw up milk duds I'd eaten in the third grade and I told him I cannot do that, it's miserable, oh my God. Um, I remember those. That's why I say I remember those milk does at a movie theater. Anyways, fast forward. I told him maybe you ought to let me teach the classroom part of evoc which nobody wanted to do and that was my future of and I say beyond the cones, and and teaching, which is a horrible course called the National Safety Council's defensive driving.
Speaker 2:Just horrible for the, for police officers almost, and yeah, and probably for the instructor getting like a, like a itinerary, like that and like how the hell am I going to teach this? But that's true.
Speaker 1:And I did the first one by the book and we had a Corpo named Reardon. He was retiring. He said Keith, you do this. He says you know. He said you're funny, you know you make fun of people, you do things, you do great. And I did the first one and I thought, oh, I'll never do this again. This was horrible. You know all your peers are looking at you and our classes had 50 to 100 people in it. You know it was mass and I thought I cannot do this. Well, in Dallas we had lost at that time 27 officers to driving. Now we're going back into the 30s and 20s. So there was a lot of police officers Police officers our own department had that had died driving. So I built a video on those officers lasted about eight, nine, 10 minutes of each one. And then I started looking on the internet, which?
Speaker 1:was at that time in the late 90s, was coming, you know, to fruition. And I realized, holy mackerel, it's not just down. Police have lost officers dying in car crashes, and we always know about the ones who get shot and killed, right? Nobody talks about the ones with the steering wheel in their hand. Yeah, and when I found out how many across the United States, my eyes opened up and I said, oh, we've got to do something.
Speaker 2:Well, who does he for doing that man? Cause that's amazing, honestly, because if you're, we, I recognize it now, probably because of the history and the foundation you had built back then. Right, and so you know, and that's one thing that I was always taught by a sergeant was that you know we're all prepared to wear bulletproof vest the minute you walk out the door, but then you pull up at a call and the stupid sons of bitches that we work with are not wearing a seatbelt and you're like what the hell are you doing? So could I see you for recognizing that? Cause that's, that is a huge safety situation that currently law enforcement just don't, they don't want to face and they don't want to look at it, it's still there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I did want to bring something up. If Keith remembers this, I took over as president late July 2017. There was a deputy killed, jason fan of Yelkin County on August 5th 2017. And, for whatever reason, keith and I were on the phone and we were talking about it, because the information at the time is that he was. He was ejected, which will tell you he's not wearing a seatbelt. So we were discussing that and I remember the phone call, like it was yesterday. I remember where I was in my living room and he goes. You know, if only somebody on this phone had the, the platform to influence people, maybe they should take it. So I kicked that around for a little while and my first article as president in the in service magazine was about basically the tenants of below 100, with a strong emphasis on wearing seatbelts.
Speaker 1:And, and you know, below 100, literally came from Dallas police. Now a group of about five officers around the country, some great guys Travis Yates, who does law officer had a conference call as to what are we going to do, how are we going to get these line of deaths down? And I told Travis, I said, once you come to Dallas and see a class that we do and I did it in the evening time that was a training sergeant at the academy, called risk, responsibilities and the roadway. So Travis and his trainers from Tulsa, oklahoma, came down, watched the class and literally said, brother, he says that quite a bit, brother. He said, brother, this is what we're going to do.
Speaker 1:And that's where below 100, because we had that video of Michael Vaughan that hit the kid on the bicycle, which was a foundation of, you know, changing your driving habits and so below 100 incorporated those slides, I'd say, from Dallas police into the program that they started nationally. And of course I trained with them for a few times, but I was training with caliber press, which conflicted with the beyond the cones class that they were selling.
Speaker 3:So Well, and in kudos for your passion for that, because trying to talk about safety and driving to 21 and 22 year olds, that are invincible and I'm just telling that because I know 21 years old, 22 years old when I was in Garland I was invincible and every call you should drive 132 because you should. Yeah and um, trying to get that through thick headed young folks like myself, that's a tall task I mean it's like trying to sell life insurance to a four year old.
Speaker 3:That's that, there's. They don't, they don't care, it's not needed and it doesn't pertain to me.
Speaker 1:And you can't put a poster on the wall and expect officers to pass it as they're going to work that says where your seatbelt and think that's going to have some impact. You can't do that. I always like to the story that had a chief that was in my driving class and I was talking about seatbelts and officers not wearing seatbelts. And it's true, they don't. Nationally they don't. And he spoke up and he said no, I don't think we have a problem here in Dallas police and of course he was a chief. I wasn't going to correct him in front of all his peers. You know people. And after the class, when I'm packing up my computer and my computer, computer and everything, two or three officers that I didn't even know Rookie said I mean young officers, I didn't, you know it's 3500. I know who they were Came up and said literally, you let that chief say bullshit.
Speaker 1:That was not true. We work out there and we know officers are not wearing their seatbelt, so keep teaching that. Disregard what he said. Of course I wouldn't Confront the chief on that, but that's because how many chiefs drive around looking at officers who are wearing seatbelts, compared to how many officers are working, two men with a partner who's not wearing a seatbelt. Yeah, so it's still. It's still. It's still a problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and and leadership comes up again here. And while ago somebody brought up and you brought up when you're on SWAT you would go out and try and mentor patrol guys that may be on scene and and visit with them and and chiefs trying to properly lead. And it's it's funny that leadership comes up in this because these problems generally are a reflection of the top yes, and once there's buying at the top, generally the culture changes down below. I spent Thanksgiving weekend taking calls from a couple of agencies that are having issues with chiefs and a couple of them are gypsy chiefs that it's like whack-a-mole we get them knocked down and they pop up the next agency two, two miles over and it's always felt leadership and it's always the Huge narcissist leaders that never build anyone and never begin to build the leader that can replace them.
Speaker 3:And when somebody mentioned while ago, when you guys mentioned all go about Preparing everybody that's behind you and that's the onus on a supervisor, yeah, that's the onus when you're the senior guy on your shift, you might as well be an OIC. You should be trying to mentor those folks. When you're a sergeant, when you're lieutenant, I had a chief couple years ago tell me yeah, I'm about to retire and I've got four assistant chiefs and not one of those idiots can is will be the next one, and he said it braggingly, like he's the only man in the world that can be the chief. And I'm thinking you just slammed yourself because you were so arrogant. You were too arrogant, because what you should be saying is I'm about to retire and I got four people that are so freaking prepared, trained and qualified. I don't even know who to pick, because there's four of them that could fill my shoes immediately. Yeah, but it always comes back to leadership.
Speaker 3:You got an assistant chief standing up BS in your class. He probably went and got in his car and drove home with no seatbelt on, and and it's just so important and it comes up in every episode.
Speaker 4:It's our outside practice. No, I was gonna say what I'm hoping for Is, when I first started, there were plenty of officers that didn't wear a vest, and what I'm hoping is, if we, if we stay on this, if we keep preaching this, that it will become the norm like wearing a vest. Yeah, because if you need that seat belt off to win a foot, chase you. You weren't gonna win it anyway. Let's be honest.
Speaker 3:Well, this, the culture changed at Garland and I never thought it would. But after I'd been on a couple of years, nobody wore a seat belt. And after I'd been on a couple years the culture changed that you know once you get checked, you're in the area, you know you're 500 yards from being on the street or whatever clicking it off. And I saw a cross and I never thought it would change because we were too cool and too tough. We would never need a seat belt.
Speaker 3:I Think cultures can change but it takes leadership and I don't know that it was our chief that was intentional about it. I think it was the, the non-rank leaders, the peer, the people that actually kind of ran that caused that change. But it takes buying from somebody and it's always a reflection every organization, even civilian organizations, a reflection of the top and it takes buying for that and somebody to set that example. And it's same with, like a PTS. There's brave people now that'll stand up and scream about it. Well, now people are like, oh shit, that guy's a badass and if he'll stand up and say it's okay to not be, I'll talk about it now. But it took some people brave enough to start that, that shift and God forbid, that's the easy one when you freaking seat belt.
Speaker 4:I, when I was the FTO sergeant, I would preach it to the FTO's you better be drilling this and in these kids. You know, seat belt will save your life, because when I got it, got the chance to teach the class. So there was always there's always that one guy that knew somebody, that knew somebody that if they had been wearing their Seat belt they would have been killed. No, it's like you know, I never have been able to track this guy down.
Speaker 1:Very elusive and we had so many videos and I know you taught the class and Bidal her son was killed in Las Vegas and she she went to. She came to Georgetown and gave a presentation during my class for about 20 minutes and Las Vegas did a video of her Saying it's such a simple thing had her son only wore his seat belt. The other officer survived the crash, the car, and it was a long story, but it is such a simple thing that it's sad that we're still preaching when a seat belt in 2023? I mean, it's been a law since what about 1988?
Speaker 3:mark white, governor, mark white, yeah, so well in. If somebody ever produces the anecdotal of he had a seat belt on it. It killed him when he went off the bridge and into the Gulf Mexico, for whatever One example, somebody can find how many tens of thousands. Yeah of them outweigh that. So the one anomaly that the UFO. If he would have had it on when the UFO struck his car, there's 10,000 examples of why somebody didn't get ejected or didn't get Whatever injury would have occurred. I agree.
Speaker 2:Yep, you, uh, you've got Some other things that you wanted to throw at Keith.
Speaker 4:I did. Yeah, this is where the do you have a ticker sound?
Speaker 3:This is the time to.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this is make it sound like 60 minutes, because this, this is where we're gonna get the hard hitting that. That always made me sad as a kid because I knew the weekend was over when I heard the 60 minutes. Keith, what would you say? What are you most proud of from your career?
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a that's a deep question. I think I cared deeply about the people that not only did I work for but worked for me, and I always, I always has attended the same. But people who worked for me because literally you know the saying, I've worked for them I mean that was true, there's no question. As a Dallas police officer, we've lost a lot of officers and it literally when I say it breaks my heart every time I talk about it. Gary McCarthy was. I was his class advisor.
Speaker 1:There were three of us in the hospital when he died. We watched them crack his chest open and I had this conversation with the other two officers when we had a reunion on their 20 year. You know, and this been well. They started 1985, so 2005, and all three of us literally stood there and cried remembering that night. Kevin, kevin James, his anniversary was two days ago. One of the greatest kids we did a canoe trip for 25 years. They're still doing it that we started in SWAT, that went to Northwest and anyways, the long story was so Some years we had up to 50 people that went on this canoe trip up to Arkansas. Kevin, of course, as a rookie, went first eight years till he was killed.
Speaker 3:The night he has a James. You know the clay shoot yeah.
Speaker 1:What a great kid. I was a sergeant when he first started and I'll also say his partner, scott Sayers, just got hired from the disc attorney up in Collin County to be the DA Investigator. They called me I guess it was two weeks ago now after his interview when he was told he got the job and literally he was so excited night. I've told everybody the story as his sergeant. When he first started, this kid had so much enthusiasm. It was just crazy. He still does. He still does. And our office at Northwest, where the sergeants were, I'd hear him come in the office and I'm joking when I say this, but there's some truth to it. I'd have to hide from him. He was just so excited sergeant, I'm gonna play when you were gone for two days and they would go for every single call and just he. I just love this kid. And Anyways, when he got the job he said I was a third person. He called his mother, his wife and me.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow, you know.
Speaker 1:That's pretty high up there, okay, wow. And of course he's been homicide forever now and they're gonna lose a great detective and great guy and he'll be working with Bill Worski.
Speaker 1:He's a great people, great so, as a Come back to your question, you know the greatest thing is seeing kids like this, because in kids you know People that worked for you achieve incredible success as a mentor that you just can't find anything better than that feeling. I get goosebumps Just even telling you how wonderful that is. And I know I'm getting older. I've got three sons that are all three great, have done great things in business. I mean they're very successful and I'm very proud of him. I'm also equally as proud of those kids who worked around me, for me a chain, you know it attained rank and have done great things. That's awesome.
Speaker 3:I got one, I Got two. What's Keith's very best day ever In Keith's worst day ever.
Speaker 1:Well, I have too many worst days, just getting that phone call. You know those are, you can't I mean where there was Kevin James. Whether it those are bad days, there's no, there's no question about that. We don't want to live those again. But that phone call ringing, this still. Thank goodness we don't have home phones anymore, right, I Don't know if I can quantify what would be my best day. There are so many of them. I mean I literally I want to say that even when I was working in places that were Not great places to work you know, working for lieutenants and chiefs that were Were horrible I still enjoyed going to work. I worked at Southwest for two years, transferred out of there. The officers were fantastic, the administration was horrible, but I still enjoyed every single day going to work because I know they needed they needed that buffer in between. So I guess I have thousands and thousands of great days.
Speaker 1:That's a good problem to have you know, I'm retired now and I literally miss. I Miss the, the, the daily Discipline, the daily going roll call, roll call. When I made sergeant, I made it a goal and I'll be critical of the management. When I worked in Irving, it seemed like every roll call was about what you couldn't do, what you shouldn't do, what you couldn't do, who was doing things wrong. It was all negative and I would sit in those roll calls and I made this commitment I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna chew out a group of people you know for what one person did.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna go to an approach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If somebody does something wrong, I'll tell him later. Very seldom did I ever have to say you know. But there were times you had to say look, the dispatchers are watching what you're doing. You might want to quit doing certain things, but I made it a goal To be that positive when you come to work. You know, because we've had guys you guys know this that leave, go out in the field and Don't go home. You don't want to be that person that was a horse's ass At three o'clock roll call.
Speaker 3:That's a great point. I work for a chief once and patrol some one time a year To go down and tell him that hey, no, no raises. This year insurance went up Good to see you guys and he couldn't figure out why the troops didn't support him and why things weren't going one. I was like they literally see one time here you go down there to tell them the sky's falling, you're screwed, you're not getting a raise and your insurance is going up.
Speaker 4:Appreciate you or or they got in trouble. Yes, that's the only other time they would see him yeah and I'm like you guys are 143.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, but why? Why would you think they love you or respect you? They see you one time a year to tell them that they say it's sorry, it's not a, it's been another bad year for you.
Speaker 4:Yeah we got time for one more.
Speaker 3:Yeah, good, after it, I invaded with mine.
Speaker 4:No, no no, all good stuff, so Tell us about implementing reality-based training at Dallas PD, and what kind of roadblocks Did you go up against and how did you eventually get buy in for it?
Speaker 1:You believe it or not. I don't think we got roadblocks. It took some creative people To get. We had resources. We got a I think it was about $80,000 from the Kerooth police foundation or the proof family, which was outstanding. We bought, we went shopping cameras, we got you know everything you need for reality-based training. We had the naval air station. We had a facility that was absolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 1:The problem with the first year and I had great, I was a sergeant, had some great trainers that worked for me and, unfortunately, the first time we did this, the first series of getting all 3,500 officers through it, it was more of a wake-up call. So the the, the scenario, the scenarios were, they were quick and it was almost like, well, you did good, you need to do better. That was about it. But it evolved into more realistic Training.
Speaker 1:Not every call is a shooting call, that every time you confront somebody. So there was a lot of Different type of scenarios where they they had to talk, they had to be police officers, reality, and I don't think officers ever left the training saying something to the effect of well, that wasn't real, it was real it. And I'll tell you the short story. I had a female officer one time that was in a shooting in the reality-based training. She called me later that evening and she was still upset. She said I've never been in a shooting. I cannot get over what happened today, because she obviously used deadly force. She did a great job.
Speaker 1:Yeah but she went through a shooting. It just wasn't real. But to her it was real. I mean, you know, I mean it was right. The scenario was so realistic. That was the value of realistic-based training and why every department isn't doing it every quarter I mean because in SWAT we did it all the time why don't patrol officers get that training every single three months?
Speaker 3:But, and if you can insert somebody in the most realistic situation they're gonna be involved in and allow those mistakes to occur in practice, yes, so God forbid they don't happen in the game. Whether people's feelings get hurt going through reality-based training or not, you it's insane to not do that, because if you care about your people, that's the best training, it's the best Juice for the squeeze that you're gonna get to put somebody in situations to see how they handle themselves.
Speaker 1:And. But the key is you've got to have the right coaches. I use that word for trainers, coaches. You can't have somebody who just tells somebody they did wrong. You've got to lead your, your students, down the path of making decisions to Realize what they did right, what they did wrong. That's the key. So it to me it's a coaching experience but it also takes leaders.
Speaker 2:They're willing to go out on a limb to get the funding for because right now, law enforcement, the funding for training, it's probably not there because of the manpower and so forth. But you've got to have leaders that just don't want to put that on a resume. For instance, you know, like, let's just say, a sheriff in East Texas that wants to put that on a resume builder, to use that platform. You've got a. You have to. You know I've devoked yourself and to vote your people to that. But it takes leadership in order to get the buy-in.
Speaker 1:Leadership when it comes to training is almost non-existent in law enforcement and that's a shame. One of the classes and I think James may have gone to it was my tactical leader class that I did about Sargeants making decisions and critical incidents and if I would say as a as a supervisor In Dallas, you had many of opportunities to succeed or fail and you learn quite a bit Then that's that was great for the police department because it was busy all the time. A lot of departments don't have that, that ability to teach as you go along, but we really have no sergeant classes. I know there's leadership classes, but actually how do you actually manage People and what tools can you give somebody in a training, an eight-hour seminar that they can leave that seminar with a tool that they can actually use other than some theory about what Colin Powell's you know, 22 irrefutable lessons. I mean those are all good books to read, but how do you apply those things to?
Speaker 2:actual people. I've never understood. I'm just asking you guys out of law enforcement, how many people of law enforcement, both men and women, do you think participated in some type of sports growing up as children? I would, I would comfortably say 90 to 95 percent, wouldn't you guys say that?
Speaker 4:I would think so and so what?
Speaker 2:what my what blows me away, right, is that growing up as kids, we've all played football, baseball, soccer we don't hesitate on going to practice and giving a hundred percent During practices of sports. And so when you get backlash from patrol officers or CID guys about going through Realistic training, yeah, I don't understand the ideology behind. Okay, so for a sporting event where you cannot lose your life, for the most part we're not going to question that and go into it without hesitation. But with reality-based law enforcement training where there's hesitation or resistance, there I don't understand that. I'll that that, that mind process, that the thinking behind that.
Speaker 1:If there's resistance, it's because of the way it's administered. I had many officers that would come by my office and say, hey, keith, can I just be a, can I be a suspect today? Or you know, I got bad knees and you know older officers, you know, and I, you know, is there any way I can get out of this training? Of course I wouldn't do it. Naturally, at the end of the day they'd come back and they'd say there's the best stuff I've ever ever gone through, and I believe it was because the right people were doing the training. And that's one good thing that we had was the right people. How you coach somebody yeah, it's pretty important. You can't just tell them they did wrong. You got a kind of cops are. You know they're type a personality and you got to smooth into it and be gifted at that.
Speaker 3:If you want to say, and I think in the past there was a style of any scenario training when, like even on interview boards, you're always set up to fail and TMP a puts on a basic response, survival training burst. It's our reality based training, munitions training and one of the things when the guys were developing it and I'm super proud of our class is Not every episode, not every scenario is a gunfight right. Never will we put you in a situation where it's a ha got you. We. You know we set you up to look like an idiot and when we take that class on the road to places you can see it every time the first hour they're very tentative of Okay, here's the game where the friggin boogeyman is gonna jump out with a car bomb or some BS. That's not realistic. So I can look like an idiot and when we leave it's always the same deal Holy shit.
Speaker 3:That was the most realistic thing I've been through in the sincere value that you can tell people take away from it when you set them up properly to succeed or when they fail. You didn't fail your learning right. We didn't lose, we learned. Let's learn how, in the couple times We've had people get really emotional during the class or upset and I'm like I'd rather you do this today than being a shooting tomorrow and this occur. This is just practice. Yeah, the game may is someday. Hopefully you're not ever in the game.
Speaker 3:But I think it's super important of how that is managed in the old style From 20 years ago scenarios where you were set up to look like an idiot, or that everybody could laugh at you, or that you got Failed you you know you failed or there was the big aha got you where you were in a no-win. And I really appreciate, with the reality-based training, most people that are doing it. It's, I think it's. It's about as effective as Any simulator or is anything. You can only stand in front of a screen for so long and make noises and I I love that you brought that to Dallas.
Speaker 1:I Would ask in my sergeant's class, what do you think the average police officer skill level is? On a one to five, what do you think? And most people would say, oh, probably a four, and I'm gonna be honest, it's nowhere close to a four. So, taking that into consideration and being not just a trainer, so I would see well, the first two years, with 3,500 officers go through our reality-based training 3500 I got to see when mistakes are being made and to say I've watched officers try to put a magazine and An epistle where there was already one in it. It doesn't work, it won't go. We've tried it many times and that just when you start to see where the the talent is. When narcotics guys and SWAT guys would come through our reality-based training, they aced it. They were really good because they were getting training all the time. Certain patrol guys, depending on where they work, you could almost pick the guys who work southeast, southwest you know the crime fighters, then you can I'll get hit for this but you could pick the guys who work north-central.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know? I mean, it was just, they don't do felony stops southeast. You're doing them every day. In some that's exaggeration, but you're doing them all the time. You get good at things. Repetition makes you skillful, and so that training gives you repetition.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And and. With budgets tight, people getting range time is less and less people willing to spend for ammunition. And you just nailed it police work is a diminishing skill set, whether it's on the range, whether it's your ability to operate your gear, muscle memory and and being repetitive about something is it's a diminishing skill and you don't mess with your gear for a while and your pistols rusted into your holster and you have all these issues in the middle of the game.
Speaker 3:Is not the time to figure out that there's a Deficiency that I haven't done in two years now and reality-based training again continues to home?
Speaker 1:you know, for science is a great, great group of knowledgeable people. But one thing you learn from for sciences humans make mistakes and Once you know that we do and you agree to that, then we can fix those mistakes, or we can, we can try. You know, in a small city you can find an Abandoned building somewhere and do a bird research.
Speaker 1:You can get a buddy you know you can clear weapons and do it safe. You can get a buddy that's inside the building and they're not expecting a burglar to actually be in the building, but there is one in there and make it realistic. There's so much you can do as a supervisor or as an FTO that we're not taking advantage of slow times.
Speaker 4:So let me ask you this real quick Do you enjoy being wrong? Enjoy being wrong? Yeah, oh, he's wrong about the bagpipes, by the way. Oh, he's a hater on those.
Speaker 1:No, I'm telling you, I have bad memories of people, of the sound of those bagpipes, Cuz I I've never been to a concert where they play really neat songs. You know some Beatles favorites and maybe even some Barry Manilow.
Speaker 4:You'd never know what they might come up with it's always send you some iTunes, but because, funny enough, paul McCartney actually has a song okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mola of kintire, I made one statement in that conference and I said I just hate bagpipes because they remind me of police frunerals and and they do, and so ever since, and so I, and then I see them in a skirt, and then I think, well, I don't know, maybe it's not Well, we, you got anything else.
Speaker 4:No, that was the one thing I wanted to shoehorn in there.
Speaker 2:Well, well, I mean Clint, both of them when you get you on for for a while. So thank you for making the drive down.
Speaker 4:Oh, thank you guys for having me absolutely blast what you got, anything else?
Speaker 3:No. Once I saw his calves, that first time, I knew I was wanted to spend some time with him.
Speaker 2:Well, we typically end each episode with three rapid-fire questions Okay, I've got faith because you and bab our friends, so we're gonna see about this. Your favorite line from a police movie or favorite police movie, favorite cop car and favorite adult beverage?
Speaker 1:Well, let me start with the beverage. I would almost have to go with the Just a Coors beer, just something really simple, although I do like flight, now I've kind of changed to a flight, cuz it's unique and I couldn't find it forever.
Speaker 4:I tried that at the fair and it almost tastes like beer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but but at my age I can drink more of them and and hang with you know the big dogs, okay, okay. So police car I loved the Torino. Now I had a 1970 Torino when I was, you know, my first second car, but it wasn't nowhere close to the Starsky and Hutch. But the Starsky and Hutch and the police car, I love the Torino's. That's going way back, nobody would know anything about automatic or three on the tree.
Speaker 1:Automatic. You know, let's just be real, even though I mean yeah, but yeah, it had to be an automatic as a police car.
Speaker 3:Oh, some of them were three on the trees.
Speaker 1:Oh, they're really. Yeah, I never saw one of those.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that said that his first one was three on the tree and when you would go in to get something to eat they would take wire off the newspaper bundles and put it around the clutch and then over the horn. So when a rookie would get in and push the clutch to start the car, it would set the Turn the horn. Send the horn off alert everybody that the new rookie was around, so somebody should write a book on things cops have done to each other.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, oh yeah, our felonies to begin with. Yeah, that's brutal.
Speaker 2:Please move a lot of police movie.
Speaker 1:You know I've watched this show and I'm trying to think of the name of it Brooklyn seven four. Does that sound familiar back?
Speaker 4:in the 90s.
Speaker 1:There's only ten episodes and and it was a great, great, great series that you can't find anywhere. I actually bought the box set but as far as an actual line in there and I tell you I admired the sergeant and the very first episode. I even use it in my class there's about six, seven minutes of the very first episode where a police officer gets shot and killed and once I wanted to get shot in the back and he and he's we know he dies. Just a whole dynamics. A sergeant does a fantastic job. They bring this bad guy in that was shooting, killing people into the station and one officer is accused of Roughing them up, which he didn't do. It's just a fantastic. And it goes from there. That would have to be my favorite all-time show. I'll check that one out.
Speaker 2:I've never heard of that one.
Speaker 3:So if you're a listener or a watcher and you know where we can find the Brooklyn seven four or Brooklyn seven five, I can't remember, but I remember. Post down below if you, if you know where we can find it, hulu or somewhere, if you know where we can find them.
Speaker 1:Hey, you know who's in that show too is Bosch.
Speaker 2:I like boss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whatever, I can't think of his name right off the hand. But he's. He's the guy that is accused of roughing up the prisoner which he deserved to be rough.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna take that effort tonight. Whenever Wife are hanging out, she likes, he loves her. Some boss.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I didn't set him up for that question, for for any of the questions I didn't. I didn't give him any, okay good, but I was a little nervous that he may go With the wrong choice, which is Victoria, because he did point out when he was teaching at the conference. He pointed out to me. He goes hey, watch this, that's the DPA president that just jumped through the black back window of that car which you know. A shout out to Mike Monah because he is retiring at the end of the year.
Speaker 1:Was that not a great video? That's a great video. He's been shown all over the world. In some parts of Texas.
Speaker 4:We might do you have it or they can. I will say, I will you know, I'll have to get with me. I'd love to see that you did have did?
Speaker 1:I put the music to it. I don't recall. It's a boots Randolph saxophone. When you get it, you'll love it. We've given Mike such a hard time about that, but he literally dives in the window of a stolen car with four occupants.
Speaker 3:It's, it's not first, or feet first, head first, Wow, yeah, I gotta get that nothing but net clears the.
Speaker 1:He clears three. You know, he's not a big guy.
Speaker 4:I thought it was a crown Vic that he jumped into. I'm not really sure what car he's. Excuse me, not crowned it go. Caprice is for some reason that was the memory I had of him. I thought it was a caprice that he dove head first into it's big Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I almost, almost forgot. Let's go ahead and give you your three questions. Oh, favorite client from a cop movie, favorite police vehicle and favorite beverage adult beverage James bad.
Speaker 4:I feel kind of weird because I don't think anybody has mentioned the Grand Torino, the Brooklyn 7, 4 and. Mine are gonna be pretty pretty try.
Speaker 2:Oh, I never mentioned flight either, by the way, with the point.
Speaker 3:Yeah For me, I'm a peacock, you gotta let me oh yeah, it's just that that is one of my favorite movies. Very popular movie on here that that movie has come up.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I hate to be tried like that, but that's such a great movie. It is and, of course, as I've sent you the videos of the one remaining crown Vic that we have in our fleet that is is in my unit because the chooser ride now, so we drop it at different places, but I sent you guys some pretty sweet.
Speaker 2:So crown engine is your, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a pretty sweet engine revving video.
Speaker 4:Yes, and I'm a. I'm a bourbon guy.
Speaker 3:Any particular one.
Speaker 4:I really really like well or I Would love any of the listening audience out there if you, if you've got the lead on a well or foolproof At at MSRP because they get a little crazy, drop that in the comments. I'll be, I'll be looking on a rock neat neat. Yeah, if you can't drink it neat, you know it's not a good burp.
Speaker 3:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:Well, man, this might wraps it up. I'm I'm one for two today, so I can live with it, and we're like one in ten for the Caprice's. Ken Gardner, you were about the only ones that.
Speaker 3:I think that well with the only ones experienced enough to have driven them. Everybody else's to you.
Speaker 4:Oh no, sir, I drove him the body roll on, those things was ridiculous. Now I'll give you, I will give you flat out Straight line speed. Great the cornering they were Trash at 154 miles an hour.
Speaker 3:Who cares about body roll? I mean, it's really doesn't matter at that point. Yeah, 154.
Speaker 1:Hey, can I tell you that I'm in one of those LT engines. I chased a car this back in 90, probably five all the way to Oklahoma. It was totally against policy. Lewisville police were chasing a, just a speeder and I was a sergeant and I got on about Walnut Hill going south. We went all through Dallas, we went over to Arlington, we went north on 360, we went all the way back up through Lewisville, all the way up 35, all the way into Oklahoma. The helicopter was involved. I don't know how many cars were behind me and I was a supervisor of the chase. But this is the best part of it. I love this. She was a chief. Jill Muncie was our chief, you know. She was a duty chief that night and I got a phone call. We had those cradle phones in the car and the dispatcher gave the chief my phone call because it we're going to Oklahoma and I didn't answer the phone.
Speaker 1:The casino, sir the reason I didn't answer the phone because I didn't have a legitimate answer for what the hell I was chasing this car for Oklahoma. It already busted through like stop sticks which I hate you know, stop sticks.
Speaker 1:It was just crazy. But when we got to Oklahoma I knew that we only had speeding, you know, an invading arrest, so we couldn't chase it anymore. But it ended up in Ardmore and in Ardmore they set up a roadblock and it busted through. I mean hit cars, put one all share in the hospital. They chased it into the city, arrested both of the suspects they were in a big Dooley Truck that was stolen out of Las Vegas and Drug charges I mean the. When I say the end Justified the meets.
Speaker 1:Well, I finally answered the phone. I mean, on the way back the first, I called my wife and I've only been a sergeant for like less than a year. I called my wife and I said you're not gonna believe this, this is one o'clock in morning. I just chased the car to Oklahoma and I'm a deep shit. I'm on the way back to the station and I said I'm not answering the phone. But so I hung it up and it kept ringing. It kept ringing so I just said, well, screw it. So I answered as one of the officers and unfortunately he's dead. Now that we call him filthy Francis, he says sergeant who? He stayed at the station. We listen to that whole thing, even though we're off duty. He said you know you're in a lot of trouble, right, shut up, francis.
Speaker 1:So I came back and our our chief at my station Was Danny Garcia. I love him to death. And the sergeant at the station called me, says, key, take your time, chief Garcia is here and he has pissed. And so of course I drove the speed limit coming back and I go in his office and I guess I can say this chief Garcia uses GD quite a bit okay, and when I went in and he started up with the GD's and I guess somewhere in the, and he said well, what makes you even think you're something like, why did you do this? And I said but the end? I already called Ardmore, so I knew the end, you know. I mean that was over ten minutes after I.
Speaker 1:We came back to Dallas. As a matter of fact, when we stopped and the helicopter, you know, went back, they had to land outside of a stuckey somewhere near Denton and bring a fuel truck up to it because it was out of fuel. That's a real deal. That costs a lot of money to the city, but anyways, there were probably a dozen and a half squad cars Now I was in the front, so I have no idea who you're the front because you were to Caprice. I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna go back, and I'm gonna go back, and I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna go back, and I'm gonna go back.
Speaker 1:Caprice, because I'm gonna Caprice and I'm the sergeant and they knew they were in deep shit if they passed me, so Because I'm the sergeant and so, and all these officers are coming up you know they're high-five and I said I want, because you know it's a big city, I don't know who the hell you this before AVL. Okay, I don't know who the hell you guys are, but you need to get the hell out of here now. So, anyways, I told the chief, garcia, I said, but, but, chief, the end justified the means and I think I got about five GD's at that and I told that story when he became chief in Phoenix to and I was teaching a whole all the shares and chiefs in Arizona and I started with that story about and he had just made the chief, you know, like three months earlier or something like that, but I think the world of them.
Speaker 1:so that's all I got a white copy which, on in Dallas, is nothing. I mean, it's like those off for three years and it was because I didn't answer the phone, because the policy wasn't written very strictly it is now, you know that's with my picture right next to it, of course, but that's why that's all I got in, because I was disrespectful to the chief by not answering the phone. Gotta find something to write him up for.
Speaker 1:Which was a fight of known that there was gonna be over in Ardmore, and I've only got a white copy out of Bennett into that chase.
Speaker 3:Got your money's worth, yeah, no kidding.
Speaker 2:Well, this is about wraps it up. You got anything else?
Speaker 3:I got nothing, el Presidente.
Speaker 4:Again, thank you guys for having me. I enjoyed it Hopefully. I've provided you a quality guest.
Speaker 2:Yes, quality and thank you for driving making the short trip. After living Georgetown, making the short trip down we really enjoyed having you on and Georgetown.
Speaker 3:Texas, yeah, yeah, exactly, not Kentucky for anybody out there wondering yeah but yeah appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Well, this about wraps it up. We're getting to the holiday season. You guys stay safe. Hope you guys have great holidays and had a great Thanksgiving. Take care, god bless you and, as always, god bless Texas. We're out.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh.
