.jpg)
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#051- “Defunding the POLICE” with Chas Moore Part 2
In the second part of the Defunding the Police episode, Chas Moore, founder of the Austin Justice Coalition, talks about controversial police shootings. He emphasizes that defunding the police aims to redirect funds to community resources, addressing the root causes of crime rather than eliminating law enforcement entirely. The episode highlights the need for a broader conversation on policing and improving public understanding.
Cozen O’Connor Public Strategies - The Beltway BriefingListen for of-the-moment insider insights, framed by the rapidly changing social and...
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
On the last episode of BlueGrid podcast can't happen in Texas because it's two different cultures.
Speaker 4:New are important. It's not just for the citizens to see why cops do, what cops do, the way cops do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's for the cops to get some of our citizens better. But and this may be throwing y'all a bone, but I don't need a ride along for that because, like, even when I say I have issues with police, I mean the institution. Right, I'm not talking about the actual individual, the person in a uniform, like I have to, and this is where I lose a lot of my base, right, right, because I am crazy enough to understand that it's a fucking human person in a uniform.
Speaker 3:Right. We heard from the human race right now Right.
Speaker 2:So, so, like now the uniform and the institutional policing, that is my bone. But you know, like for the, for the people at at the rallies and the protests that are, like you know, in the cops phase, right Right.
Speaker 4:We're going to call it right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure you are, but but you know, like, for the people at the, at the peaceful protests and in the cops phase, spitting and screaming and yelling, that's horseshit. Yeah, but yeah. And just like you know what you know, what you know to my friends and comrades in the movement, just like, like, how much do you actually expect a human to like endure that before they snap Right?
Speaker 1:It's counterproductive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we all have. We all have our limits. You know what I mean. And like do I think the people that and I say this, I've said this over the years do I think the people that have the power of God in a moment, like people with a bad, you're going to have the right to take life or let it live in any moment? Like well, that's not what you know, but like, but like. Do I think that these people should be trained to deal with that as much as they can? Absolutely, absolutely. Like does your fuse have to be a lot longer than mine? Yes, absolutely, but still, there is a fucking point. You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:Like, I actually had a grandeur one time in a grand jury asked me while I was on the stand officer why didn't y'all just quit and kill that son of a bitch?
Speaker 2:You know and again and I'm saying like with the words you know, like you know, like, yeah, but like there are some people that like look, think you're think you're throwing shit at like that. That to me is not acceptable.
Speaker 4:And two different perspectives, yeah, okay, and, and we each have to be willing to look at the situation from the other perspective and we have preached this forever and ever and ever. It's not just about the citizens getting to know what the cops do. It's about the cops taking the time to get to know their own citizens, their own communities, better than we do. We tend to build up walls and only associate with other cops because they're the only ones who really understand what we are going through. And we've absolutely we've got to stop doing that. But our departments have to find a way to help those officers do that, have to find a way to encourage and even sometimes mandate that that happens. But the citizens have to cooperate to the citizens that to be willing to also enter into those exchanges with our law enforcement and get to know each other in non enforcement capacities.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And then we will start reaching some of those conclusions that you talked about before we even walked in here. We agree on a lot more than we disagree on.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes. And again, because I'm trying not to always say but um, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think we also have to realize that for some people and this is the hard part Um, some people have been so traumatized by policing or by systems in general that they're just not showing up, and it's just like you know, just there's nothing there's nothing you can say.
Speaker 2:Y'all can say. I can say some people are just like so, like you know, like fuck the police that they're just not showing up you know one thing to your point you talked about, you know, walking up and spitting on a cop's face and cussing them out.
Speaker 3:there's not ever going to be a good result to that and no party in that is expecting a good outcome to actually occur.
Speaker 2:But it's not a good result to that. You shouldn't do that to anybody. Yeah, but, but I'm leading up something?
Speaker 3:Yeah, if I'm, if I think I'm wanting to change you, if I walk up and spit in your face and swing at you, do I actually think that I'm going to have any change? And you're certainly not going to desire it. I'm not going to change you for the better. Yeah, neither one of us are going to change for the better. And we see these peaceful protests turn into riots somewhat consistently and it's almost like the definition of insanity. We keep doing the same thing over, expecting a different outcome.
Speaker 3:And has there been bad instances of bad policing? Yes, there has. Has some of them been, where it's misunderstood or or? Or there was a false narrative that was hijacked and taken over by people with other agendas? Yeah, there's been that. But there's got to be a way for sensible people to be able to sit down, because if you walk up and spit at somebody and talk about their mom and swing at them, it's not ever going to work towards resolving and mending and networking or relationship. It's just not ever going to do it. I'm going to go burn a neighborhood down and that'll teach everybody. That's not teaching anybody anything.
Speaker 4:I mean, yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 4:Just like if we have members who get mad and quit TMP a drop their membership because we had you on here. That's counterproductive, that's not helping and it's, you know, like I say, it's got to be a two way street. And, by the way, I have had these conversations with chiefs and sheriffs all the time. Every department out there, it just seems like, has a citizens police academy. Right, we want the citizens to come down and sit through a citizens police academy to learn what we do. Where do we have those? We have them at the police station. We have them as the sheriff's office. Well, a lot of the folks that we really need to come sit through those classes. They don't want a company where near police station or sheriff's office. Let's have them out in the communities. Let's have them out there, where maybe we can get some folks, some other folks, to go up.
Speaker 3:You know, what's what's jazz's thoughts on? Because the protest all it ends up is I'm going to go stick my foot in a fire ant pile and then I'm surprised that I'm this went sideways and I'm getting bit by ants everywhere. Which which jazz's thoughts?
Speaker 2:sometimes like we've never done one of those type of protest rallies.
Speaker 3:And I'm not saying you have, yeah, but but to people on both sides out there listening, what's a better way than showing up and freezing water bottles and chunking them at the police and and turning things sideways? What do you? What does jazz think?
Speaker 2:I mean, if I had to fix I wouldn't be here because I'll be rich. But you know, let's do that. I want to be rich too, I mean I really think, and nobody likes this fucking answer, but I believe it to be true, right, I think the fix is I mean we really just got to start talking to one another All right. I mean, like we we have grown so far apart as humans that when you say well, you mean law enforcement. No everybody, like everybody, everybody, but then especially when you start, like when you start putting labels on it, it gets even worse.
Speaker 2:All right, like, like from a man and woman perspective, with split. From a black white race perspective with split. From a citizen, our pedestrian to law enforcement, with split right, so like it's Republican Democrat yeah. Like like we have, we've gotten so polarized on almost everything that like we only spend time talking to people that somewhat agree with us, Right Even like man and we demonize anybody who disagrees.
Speaker 2:Yeah man, I put out, I put out a statement around what's going on in the Middle East to where I was like I guess it wasn't pro-Palestine enough and these people that have been in my corner for years was like, oh you bootlicker. And it's just like wait a minute. Y'all know my morals and you know I stand. And I was just trying to say like, yes, palestinians have a right to exist and Jews have a right to be safe. Right, like that's all I said. And it was like how could you? I'm just like, have we been so polarized to where we can't even dream of like a common ground, a common middle?
Speaker 4:Right, yes, we have.
Speaker 2:But, but. But it's just like there are people on left, right, red, blue, that that and a lot of these people not even profiting from it right, just sheared like stupidity to me. Like you're, you're so stuck on your belief that you cannot imagine that there is a way or path for it to meet in the middle Right.
Speaker 3:I'm going to be old fashioned for a minute. You know, you just nailed it. People need to talk. Part of the problem is you make a post on social media. I don't like it, so I can get on and comment. Well, mother truck you Chas. Well then you can get on.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's the worst part, yeah, we hear a honk and that's the worst part and we may actually get along, yeah, but we get on social media and decide we're going to keyboard warrior and now we hate each other's guts. We've never even laid eyes on each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, there are people that hate me on Twitter and these people have admit like I'm and I know that here sound bites. They hear some things of what I've said. They've heard some things that I've said a long time ago that have changed. But you know, they just stick with it. I don't block them because I don't believe in it and it's just like.
Speaker 1:You know, it's all kind of entertaining to me, but I think it's a good, a good opportunity for us to segue into something in 2019,. You began kind of dissecting the problems that you saw with Austin Police contract and that's segwayed into 2020 with the what we call the Defund movement Significant, catastrophic, in my opinion, of Austin Police Department and the morale there is still hurting from that, from that episode. What one? I kind of want to know what was going through your mind process during that in, during that whole episode. But two, because in my opinion and we have stats and data to prove it because of the Defund movement that happened in 2020, this community, this city, the one that we all typically I mean every Texan loves Austin, is still filling the repercussions from that decision.
Speaker 1:Then the crime rates astronomical. We can't retain and recruit police officers. Now Can you speak on If your thoughts have changed, how they have changed and how we can have discussion to try to put that money back, or it has been put back, quote on quote. But talk about that, talk about what, what, what your mind process or what your thinking process was.
Speaker 2:So I think this is the part where, um, yeah, I think we just not going to agree. Um, and I also I will also admit this I did not like the term defund Um, I think it was too much and I think it missed the mark of what we were trying to do. But that was a national campaign, that I was the one of the only voices that say we shouldn't say this. Um, now do I think that and do I think police departments in most major cities have too much money? Absolutely, absolutely, um, I think you all have too much money and I also say this I think police departments are asked to do too much work. Right, right, like, and again, like in 2023, we are asking officers to be fucking therapists, mediators, mental health. You, you all, shouldn't do all that. You can't, you, just you, you, you literally can't. So in 2020, we were proposing um that let's take some of this money and try different approaches to, to public safety, like, let's have a different mental health outreach, let's have different sectors, do different things. Um, and and and.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think we got caught up when I say we not not me personally, but I think we um, the, the criminal justice reform folks got caught up in the politics on the national level, um, and then, like the, the, it was a narrative that that just got out of everybody's hands that we can control right, because what we did in Austin was really a cool, it could have been a cool thing, but, you know, government came in and shut it down. But what happened is that national media came in and said, oh, austin defunded their police when, like, that was not our intention, we just wanted to take some money, we want to reallocate some money and try different things. Um, and I mean honestly, man, I, I, I just think we got caught up in um, in in the national narrative that this really got away from us and we couldn't.
Speaker 4:It was it was too late to, it was it was too late to to change it, to walk it back, because I see here's, here's, I think a good example of where we find some common ground, because even before that we had been down at the legislature testify that there needed to be a shifting of resources from law enforcement to other programs when it comes to mental health. Yeah, and you can go back and look at the records. I don't know if you ever attended any of those committee hearings, but we we argued and testified over and over again. If you will put more money into mental health services, you can stop spending a lot of money over here on law enforcement. You can stop training every cop on this. You can stop spending so much money on your county jails.
Speaker 4:The, the, the number one provider of mental health services in every county in the state of Texas is, in fact, the county jail. Yes, and that shouldn't be the way it is. The difference is you can't just cut it over here all of a sudden and then shift the money over here and expect that's going to solve the problem over here. You're going to have to do these services first and then gradually shift that money over somehow. I know that that got hijacked.
Speaker 2:So the mission you started, but but you know, to be fair, we had that idea, and then the people that makes it happen, they didn't do it right, you know I.
Speaker 3:but well, there's a montage of the city council meeting, of all the different speakers and that was going to be my question is was the result what you set out to start, or did the nuts hijack it, cause there's a bunch of nuts? Did it get hijacked by the nuts and bears? And it didn't? The result wasn't exactly what you all started.
Speaker 2:No, I think again. I think the, the national narrative is really what screwed up what we were trying to do here in Austin, locally, you know, I mean, there are nuts on on every side Like we, we, we both know that Um, and I think that, despite the crazies, um on both sides, that um, I think we had a valid argument. I really do. I just think that, again, if the word defunded didn't exist, then it didn't exist around defunding police. Because, again, I, I, I, man, so many people on my side are going to be so like what they think is disappointed when they hear all this shit. But I have to understand that there are old black people in my neighborhood that agree with me on police need to be better. They absolutely don't agree with me that the police should be defunded. So how can I walk in my own truth, advocate for what I believe in but also respect the people in the communities that I serve, because it doesn't come?
Speaker 1:down to police. It comes down to the criminal justice reform with with how the criminal justice is enforced. Yeah, Police officers have the enforcement. They have the laws to enforce, but it's not really criminal justice reform.
Speaker 4:But on the flip side of that, we need to acknowledge there have been some improvements made within the Austin police department as a result of some of this, especially in their training and what they're trying to train. Yeah, Problem is they don't have anybody to train. Well, you can't get enough people. But in this way I disagree.
Speaker 2:I don't think that people are not signing up to be police officers because of anything that me and my groups have done. I just think there's a huge national, I think there's a global shift around the role of policing today and how policing is is done that are making people question it.
Speaker 4:How about this? I'll acknowledge that you're right. This problem is nationwide, so it can't possibly be because just to what you've done in Austin. Maybe. Maybe some of what y'all did contributed to it somewhat, but it's not the primary, Far from being the primary cause. I agree with you on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know why people don't want to be police anymore. I can't imagine. I'm being serious, I'm not sure what anybody wanted to be talking about before.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this and this is I really want to get your perspective on this. You've never ridden out with police. You've ridden out with, with with a cop and been a cop rode out in a police car. So you really don't have this perspective.
Speaker 1:But one thing as me, being a cop and I watch all the quote unquote controversial shootings, the controversial police shootings in America the notable one is Ramos here in Austin Okay, the number one thing that always comes back to me as a citizen from Dallas I grew up and born and raised in Dallas. I moved East Texas, I was a cop for 20 something years. I now work for the state's largest and best police association and the number one thing that I see when I see those controversial shootings is compliance. Clint made a great point earlier.
Speaker 1:You didn't have exactly a great situation with this officer that stuck the gun in your back, but you did to show your ass and try to fight with them, right then. And there's a process on how everything should be done. Can you comment on that, on compliance? If it were followed, a lot of these controversial shootings may not occur, and then we may not have the protest and the rallies and say where is the accountability we saw. We preach and bitch about accountability with police, but where is the accountability with the people that are fighting the cops for this incident, this, this situation to occur?
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. So I'll say this I think, um, I do think there is some. I don't. I don't know if the word I want to use is like responsibility, because it sounds icky with what I'm about to say, but I do think hope ability. No, I do think there's some responsibility For people, for the citizen, to like be able, as much as we can, to keep a level head In in those type of situations.
Speaker 2:Right, because you know, and this has just been taught to me by, like my grandma and that generation, like you know, stay alive and we can fight in a court or something along those lines right, yep, but but also and maybe this is unfair, right, maybe it's just fucking unfair, but I do think that there is a level of Honor and prestige and maybe some some Assumption that that people in uniform have to be better than right, like I think. I think people want are people assume that you all Just have to be better, right, I think?
Speaker 3:I think you're like killed to a higher standard or that were better, yeah, yeah no, no, no, like hell to a higher standard like you, like like we agree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but same thing. Same thing with teachers like teachers, right, like a lot of us, well, a lot of people with kids like Send their kids to school, trusting that this person is not a pervert, that they have their child's best interest at their heart. And I think that a lot of us in the public, even people that hate the police, right, and they could, you're not one of them.
Speaker 1:No, no, I'm not. I'm not, you know, but I love Cops. I want to wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2:But I do think I think even the people that that would say they hate the police Would admit that they just expect you all to like go above and beyond a little bit. So an instance where, like, let's say, the kid wasn't me and didn't take a moment to breathe right and in in the kid may have like ran or Um, not not saying he would have hit the cop, but like an instance where emotions are high, you know, like the fucking testosterone is flowing. Whatever juices are flowing, I think people escalated. I think people.
Speaker 2:I think people are Just assuming you all have to be better. I know, is that fair? I don't fucking know but it is fair.
Speaker 4:It is fair. Cops, teachers, clergy yes, have to be, we have to be held to a higher standard, but it has to be a reasonable Stand, absolutely the moment that standard becomes unreasonable. It becomes when the job becomes untenable, and that's when people stop wanting to get into the business altogether. We, we don't disagree. The cops have to be held to a higher standard. We will again. It's a threshold argument. Where is the reasonableness standard in there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, because man I like have conversations about what that means because I'm not a. I am by all means. I hate the Dallas Cowboys Absolutely. I hate, I hate the Dallas Cowboys.
Speaker 2:I hate, I hate but, but I also understand that if you go play for that organization, there is literally a plethora of people that Are gonna hold you to a higher expectation. Then that other person has gone play for like the lions or the Browns, right, like when you put that star on Right, you, you just can't. You're not the same person. People that play for the Lakers, or when you play for like Boston, there's a different standard. Like is that fair? No, but it just. It just is what it is.
Speaker 4:So again, again. I love the Dallas Cowboys. I've been a Dallas Cowboys fan since Don Meredith was quarterbacking. I hate Jerry Jones. So again, it's just a matter of perspective. You know there are other teams that I hate and I love some of their players. You know it's. I'm a huge fan, you know, of players on other teams, Even though I can't stand the team. I get it. Same kind of situation, though We've just got to find a way to talk about exactly where those thresholds are you know, without fighting with each other, yeah, without demonizing one another.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know, I'm just saying to this point, like I do think there's some, that there is some responsibility from the citizen to like try to calm down, be be patient, but also, like man, you guys just got to be better, like you just have to. It fucking sucks, you know.
Speaker 1:But in in that situation where he chose to not comply, yeah, and he chose to get the vehicle and leave, and then it created a deadly force situation.
Speaker 4:You know goes back to back to the Ramos case. Yes, which is interesting because we had we had 12 jurors Set through. I don't remember how long the trial went on. Still wind up with a split decision to end up eight to four about exactly what is reasonable in that circumstance. You know, it's those of us that don't know all the facts that weren't sitting in that jury box. I don't know how we can pass judgment on at all one way or the other.
Speaker 3:Well, and in the reasonable expectation that you guys have of law enforcement, we have it of the citizens too. If I walk up to you and you're pissed off that I stopped you for speeding, I get it. You're not gonna be happy about it and I don't want you to smile and thank me for it, but you don't have to. You know, mother, truck me and talk about my kids and my wife and and I'm not saying that's an excuse and, yeah, that it deserves you to get pulled out the vent window or whatever, but there's a reasonableness between humans that's appropriate. He doesn't know what a vent window is the window, the window of the car?
Speaker 4:It's not about. The old wing vets used to have on the cars a little bitty one.
Speaker 2:But you know a great example that is the First Amendment.
Speaker 4:Auditors you were talking about earlier. They are the world's worst about mistreating our law enforcement officers. Yeah, far other spectrum of the political world from chance.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, they show up at a police station trying to run up in the cops face with their cell phone cameras on and Trying to provoke and to see if they can make something go sideways, just so they can become a YouTube legend and it Occasionally someone bites. But I'm like, and you don't have a life just to spend your entire life running around Trying to poke the bear and just praying that I can become YouTube famous because I can Act like, act like not a good person and hopefully get somebody to go crazy on me.
Speaker 1:I was gonna ask you this as we kind of near the end of this 2020. There was the riots in downtown Austin, our illustrious, honorable district attorney, jose Garza. We will definitely agree to disagree on his policies and procedures, I'm sure. Yeah, he chose to indict 21 Austin police officers recently. 17 of those officers were the niggas were released. I'm paying a picture of how I think that out.
Speaker 1:That that day went for the officers. We just had on Austin police president Michael Bullock phenomenal guy, phenomenal background, and he talked about during the riots they were on what they call a thing of alpha Bravo. What that looked like for the Austin police officers was that they would work 12-hour shifts, the off 12, and then we had to report back to downtown, or where the riots are occurring at, for over 30 days, all hands on deck, all hands on deck. The 21 officers that were indicted by and negligently, I will say that, by Garza I don't think they were give. They were given ammunition that lay their lip was later to be found Not defect, defective right.
Speaker 1:But there are riots I mean these were legitimate riots that the Austin police officers took us, took a oath to protect the city on. Do you think that? Maybe that could have been handled a little bit differently. On on on Garza's, you know standpoint. Do you do you honestly think that 21 law enforcement officers, the Austin police department, set forth that day to say I am Fixing to go assault some rioters in this crowd? Or do you think that Put people still remain committed to their political ideology and an agenda is more than what their oath is of office?
Speaker 2:Do. I think those officers Made a conscious decision to go fuck some people up today, like, like, was that on their agenda? Did they pull out the iPhone, open up notes and say this is on my task list? No, I think some officers Responded terribly and I think that People just wanted them to be held accountable for that right. Like, even if I get out of here and I go like Rear in somebody, right, even though it wasn't my intention, I need to be held accountable, right like. Some of those officers made some really bad decisions and I just think that's but did they make bad decisions or were they given bad resources?
Speaker 1:I think, I think, I think.
Speaker 2:I think they were. I think they were given bad orders, I think they were given bad resources with the ammunition and and also, I think you know, after the fact, as you know, garza is trying to build a case. I think some folks in APD Kind of mishandled the, the evidence right like, and I think it really would have been hard for him to To really win those cases anyway. I think it would have been a waste of people's time knowing that he didn't have All the evidence he needed. But you know again, and and I'll just say this about police and I know this is a loaded word and I'm not trying to like Exaggerate what happened in 20, but I think in terms of police brutality, it's never about In like intent, like I honestly think that there may be a handful of officers that we've seen in Police shootings that actually have like really bad evil intentions, but for the most part I think people just make bad mistakes, like even even with me, when you go back to like the high school thing, I could Justifying my mind, maybe like in a Very fucked up way, that this lesson that I needed to learn was key because, although I didn't do the crime knowingly, I was with these people that did something fucked up.
Speaker 2:They were in my car. Okay, right, like I can, I can kind of own that. Do I agree with the punishment? Absolutely not. I think it was harsh, but and I think a lot of times people in the community are just asking Even with the Mike Ramos thing, I don't think that officer had like this ill intention and like kill Mike Ramos. I don't think that was his intention. I think he made a very bad call and I think there are people in the community that wanted him to be held accountable for that.
Speaker 1:And so what I'm telling you is is that beat us three. Being cops and making split-second decisions on life and death, it's so hard to make to Monday morning, quarterback that situation. You don't know. You don't know what senses that officer was, was seeing, smelling, feeling, the, the, the events that led up to that, and so, and so I guess I have an issue with people that don't have any law Enforcement experience. Going back to the accountability on Ramos yeah, I'm terribly sorry he lost his life. Yeah, he lost his life because Ramos made a terrible decision that day. In my opinion that's my professional opinion I Don't. I wasn't there to let you know what the Austin police officer felt.
Speaker 2:So I mean, but could you imagine Ramos's perspective, right? You know, I mean like here I am, here I am. We know Well, or at least we, yeah, we know now that there was no gun right and I got like eight guns pointed at me. I'm freaking out too. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like again, and Out of the, how many officers were there? Like eight or nine, what it all goes back to the 911 call.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the lot and absolutely building up to this absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But. But also out of the, let's say, was eight of the officers there, none of them but but it goes back to let me let me answer your question.
Speaker 4:Yes, we can. As a matter of fact, I'm not surprised that four people voted Guilty on that jury. Mm-hmm, none of us would have been surprised if it had been 12. We don't know all the evidence those years have we? We understand why Derek Chauvin is sitting in jail. We understand why Amber Geiger is sitting in jail. We understand why officer van dyker when it was in Chicago and the Laquan McDonald case is sitting in jail. Cops are in fact held accountable. Sometimes the accountability, I think, doesn't rise to the level of what some folks in our community think it should be and that leads to some of these riots, you know, and that's not the right way, yeah, to fix whatever it yields, you think, the system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. But but also I think, like you said earlier, a lot of those people that at the riots are just out there for their own Fucking reason. They're not out there because they actually give a shit about anything.
Speaker 4:Our argument would be there's no such thing as an innocent bystander in a riot. If a riot breaks out, you leave. If you don't leave, you're now a participant.
Speaker 2:I'm. It's kind of like riding in a car argue this, some of the. I could argue some of that, but I won't okay.
Speaker 3:Into your point on your case. You felt like you were over prosecuted. I Think when Garza chooses to weaponize His position To play to his constituents, he weaponizes the law. So he files a bunch of indictments, gets a bunch of indictments, knowing he's never gonna successfully get a conviction on that's over prosecution.
Speaker 4:He ran, he randled those promises. Absolutely he made a job that happened before he was DA and You're still welcome, mr Garza's. Come on here anytime you want to have this conversation.
Speaker 3:He made a job posting that he was seeking to hire prosecutors that are motivated to Indite the police and prosecute the police. But just in your case, you feel like you were riding a car. You weren't as complicit or as much of an accomplice as the ones that actually did it. You felt like you were over prosecuted. If you were over prosecuted, that's not right. I don't know if you were or not, but getting an indictment on 21 guys, just so you can, you know, do a, hold a press conference and grandstand on it, know when you are never gonna get a prosecute conviction on those, that's over prosecution.
Speaker 4:It's official oppression is what it is.
Speaker 3:It's not right in any case. It's not right if it's a citizen, if it's done to a citizen. It's not right if it's done law enforcement.
Speaker 2:That let's let chance alter chance. I think some of the offices overreacted. I think so many Well, I mean I think 21 out of the you know hundreds that were out there is probably like low ball on it. Honestly, overreacted. No, I think that overreacted that's probably the right number. I think that's probably right.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you this if had they not responded that we're gonna get off this topic to ask this question.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If they had not responded? If they had not responded or acted, what do you feel like the lines, or at least the consequences would have been to the citizens of Austin, to the property, to life. It was getting out of hand. They had to, you had to use a force and that dealt with the 20 will. But I'm saying I guess if they, if they would not have acted, how bad would have the downtown area would have been had they not done anything and they would have sat there and just watch this.
Speaker 1:Or let it burn just let it burn, or hand me, hand out suckers, and I mean what? What would you have recommended that they do?
Speaker 2:Man, I have such a good answer for y'all, but I won't say it while we recording. I just like, yeah, I get it. Yeah, yeah, I. You know, I think sometimes, I Think sometimes it is mutually beneficial to all parties just to let things happen, let it burn, let's. Let's just see what happens, like I like, look what happened in Portland.
Speaker 4:Look what happened and so yeah, was that? Is that really what you think would be best for Austin?
Speaker 3:Was it Baltimore where the city manager said? The mayor said that was both let's set aside and allow them to have their own Place, and they burned it to the ground and then she said, oh crap, that was not a plan.
Speaker 2:I mean I just Because then what?
Speaker 1:what do you? What do you say to the, to the individual that has the building, that has been vested their entire life Into that business, whether it be a person of minority or not? And what do you say? That was your buildings burning right there in. The cops are just sitting there going. We handed out suckers. We can't shoot them with the bean bag rounds. We what? What would be your response?
Speaker 4:Let's let's make sure we're being fair to chest. Yeah, let's face it, this is a conversation that goes a whole lot deeper than before. 100%, and I think it does. We have a certain percentage of our population that thinks ours, our rules should change. The cops are still enforcing the rules the way they are, and I think, somewhere another, we've got to reconcile those two things either Change the rules or change the minds of the people that think we need to change the rules. Yeah, but somehow or another, we can't ask our cops to enforce rules that a significant portion of our population, maybe a majority of our population, that some of our own elected officials don't think they should be enforcing at all yeah, we better reconcile those two things or we're not gonna fix this but I'm gonna try to answer this question from like a, a philosopher, of a philosophical standpoint, because I think it's.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's just a simple answer, but I think if we just let it burn, right, I think I can understand you all perspective, because if you let it burn, you have a lot of people saying y'all didn't do shit, right. But then if you respond the way that people responded, you still upset a lot of people, right. Um, from from the citizens perspective, you know we burn up some shit. I honestly think that there are a lot of people from the community that look at you know, other community members that went out there and did them be and asking like, well, what the fuck was that? You know, sometimes I think we do ourselves a slight disservice, but not letting I don't want to say chaos, but that's the word I'm gonna say like letting nature take it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, yeah, you know I think, I think, um, I can't think of the place that happened, but you, you've all heard this story. It was like this war. The two parties like take a moment to like play cards and drink on Christmas, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah you know, I think I think sometimes, when we just let things happen, um we we can be surprised by the result, like it's gonna be icky in that moment. Yes, some people, buildings would have been fucked up, but they got insurance things. You know, like those things are replaceable, right, and like I Don't know. I just think, like we just need to let shit happen. This is what happened.
Speaker 4:We'll see and let folks live with the college questions Is your grandma that raised you still alive.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she's still alive. Would she agree with you? Um, if your grandma owned a hair salon or dry cleaners and it got burned to the ground, she's owned at 40 years. Would she be cool with that?
Speaker 2:Honestly I don't know. My grandma house was broken into a couple months ago. You know, like 10 am In the morning, some fucking tweaker was in the house. They saw each other, he screamed, she screamed and he left.
Speaker 3:She didn't get hurt. No, she didn't get hurt, he was just, you know little tweaker.
Speaker 2:But my grandma they call the police, my grandma call police. I was like granny, you're killing me here. But but you know what? She told me that when the police came, she at they asked him if she went to file charges and she was like no, he didn't, he didn't. Silly thing, all right, he didn't break anything and he didn't, he didn't hurt me. And my grandma, in that moment, she was a sympathize with him Because she's like you know, he's probably just hungry and cold, you know. So I mean, I don't know, man, I think I Don't know. You know, I think that's part of like where we are in the universe right now. I think I think we just need to have a reset, um, I mean, because shit is getting crazy. Anyway, right, like we live in a town where you can't do right, anyway, right, so like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, good for your grandma, by the way, that's yeah, I mean straight out of Bible minutes. You just say who steals my teen my tunic steals, trash that him. Is that a never that's not in Bible.
Speaker 2:That is Bible, is it really? Oh, yes, sir, oh nice, but yeah, I don't know, you know, but again I think it comes back to. I think we as humans try so hard to like, manufacture everything, like try to keep everything in a tight. Yeah, you know, sometimes, just you know, we'll see.
Speaker 1:You gotta let it happen the way, that's for sure.
Speaker 4:Yeah and so. So when you guys were saying, imagine a world without police, you know that's what you're talking about. Imagine a world where we don't feel the need to involve the police.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I mean when I say it. Right, like, like, I want to live in a when we don't even have a job, to where we, expecting another person to go, put their life on the line every day. So let me ask you.
Speaker 3:You go home to your house this afternoon and there's nothing left in there here electronics TV, everything's gone.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:You're not gonna call the police and make a report.
Speaker 2:Well, me, I can't, you know, I can't.
Speaker 1:Why can't you?
Speaker 2:Well, me, me personally, I can't. I mean, it's just not it's not part of my.
Speaker 1:It doesn't serve the Coalition's mission.
Speaker 2:No, it didn't have nothing to do with the coalition right Like what? Why can't you call? It, it's just not my personal. This is not my personal belief. Like for what? Like the stuff is gone, like how often times do we actually find shit Right?
Speaker 3:like is this I worked burglaries for five years and recovered a ton of stuff. I worked aggravated robberies for years, caught a bunch of them.
Speaker 4:There's a great thing is, if you investigate hard enough, it's almost always friends, and I'm, and I'm a you.
Speaker 3:Encourage somebody to file a complaint on the police, but you wouldn't defend your own property in your own stuff to try and Help recover all your property.
Speaker 2:I mean it's just stuff, it's just.
Speaker 2:I'll say, it's only because of who you are, it's because of the position you have taken, feel like you should but no, it's, my personal is like but even with this, like when, when they were asking me about the my grandma's case In this didn't make the news, I told them there was like do you think this cop should be in jail? This is part of the news interview question. I was like well, I don't believe in prison, right. So like here, I can't say I don't believe that criminals you know Non-police criminals should not be in jail, when I can't back down and say the cops should be in jail either. Do I want the cops?
Speaker 3:to be held accountable, absolutely. So if he didn't go to jail, what do you? How's he held accountable?
Speaker 2:There. There are a lot of different ways to do that.
Speaker 4:By the way, another conversation that could take us a week. Yeah, you know, have prisons ever been successful in protecting society or in rehabilitating our criminals, or that's a whole different conversation. We we might actually be closer to agreeing. Yeah, we think I got a good round to.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I'm not gonna come back. But you know, I think some people will say, yeah, but I think I think you know, and you said it earlier, there are a lot of people making money off all this shit. Right Like, there's no, there's no actual accountability for an officer that kills somebody to the family, to the victim's family, if he just goes away. Right Like to me. Let's say Scenario if you, if you, killed somebody in my family, right, I would.
Speaker 2:I might want to hold you accountable by having you, you know, meet me at the, at the, the grave site of the family member, like once a month, and let's talk about and you just listen to me, talk about who this person was to me and and who you took away from me. Like, that's probably gonna affect you a little bit more than you just sitting in the cell. Like you, sitting in the cell sucks For sure. It is a deterrent to not do bad shit again. However, there's no actual accountability there to me. That is my personal Belief in opinion. Same thing like if I go home right now somebody took all my sneakers, I would be fucking sad, but also, it's just stuff, okay.
Speaker 3:Well, make me a pinky promise. Yeah, you don't ever have to report your sneakers stolen, but if something ever happens really bad to your grandma, call the police so we can try and help. Okay, that deal.
Speaker 2:That I mean. But you know, I think that's fair right because, like the the violent stuff sexual assaults, any kind of danger to a kid is something that I'm still dealing with in my own mind, around my you know ideology, around police and prisons, because like those are like the line crosses for me, like don't fuck with kids, don't fuck with old people, don't fuck with women, don't murder, right, like those are. Those are the things that I think we have to find ways to.
Speaker 4:That's you don't believe in prison. I'm assuming you don't believe in the death penalty.
Speaker 2:No, I don't mean I, I just I'd like. But I think for me and this is the part of again I I lose a lot of friends in the movement space on a daily, because here we are talking about abolition in a in a new world, but you don't believe in redemption. Right like, so you say, throw the killer cops in jail, but in the same, whether you say you don't believe in prisons, something's not adding up. Like I have to believe that there's redemption, even for the worst of us. Right like I have to believe that we all fall short. Right like, I know that's biblical, like, and we're not perfect, but I have to believe that there's a chance that you can be a better version of yourself than who you presented to be, in no scenarios or any given day.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that's one of the biggest hypocrisies about people on the left. Like we say we believe in all these things, we believe in Liberation, we believe in abolition, but like, when it comes to certain people, people that don't agree with you, people that Wear the uniform like you don't offer them that same grace, and it's just like that's part of the problem. You know what I mean. Like I have to believe that, yeah, you, there probably are a lot of racist people in our police departments, in institutions in general, but I have to believe, one, that like they were not born that way, and two, I have to believe that they are actually able to, you know, have redemption. But I can't offer that redemption to them if I'm not talking to them, right? You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:Like, like, well, I will tell you, it's very difficult for cops career cops, experience cops to believe that everybody is Capable of redemption. There are the Jeffrey Dahmers, the John Wayne gazes of the world that we have to deal with, that, that we are just absolutely convinced they need to somehow be separated from society permanently Because there is no redeem, because we've just dealt with them so many times and even with that, you know, I think I think when I say I don't believe in prisons, I don't believe in prisons the way we have them today.
Speaker 2:I think there's a prison in Norway, like it's Basically like a camp, you know, like they don't have cages and stuff, they have like little cottages and cabins. They're far away from society but it's still some. It's a it's a humane aspect to it and I think, like, even if we have to have the people in those cases be very far away from the public, we can still treat them as a human. You know, like these are just humans, that Somewhere up here things got tangled and crossed and you know, you know we need to put you in isolation, but but we still have to. Oh, we should treat you like a human.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, people sound crazy for that. Like, even when I did the the New York posting and I was like, you know, if somebody came into my grandma's house and fucking blew her brains out, like what, what do I benefit from that person being a jail? Like and let like if we, if we could do some psych, you're not a bad about it, them doing it, I am, I mean, but I would be mad, right, because I'm human, but it's just like Okay you're in jail doing what?
Speaker 4:and our point would be you don't need to get anything by that person in jail. We need to protect the next grandma yes From being the next way. We need to protect the next chas from losing his grandma Because that's, that individual was not held accountable. So accountability we are down with, yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, but I think I think, going back way earlier, I think we we mitigate and and prevent a lot of these problems by taking the time to like, do the big system issues right, like, why are people?
Speaker 2:Because I also believe that people are like this, like the person that went on the shooting rampage that we just talked about, something happened there, right, um, and I think, going back to something we said earlier, I think we all have to take Um some accountability in that right because, like, we as people have gotten so fucked up, like we don't speak to people when they come down the street, no more.
Speaker 2:Um, like we're just not nice to one another, we're not kind, right, and like we have to, we have to take some, we have to absolve some of that and and understand our role into like how, maybe, um, we as a collective have contributed to people feeling Sallowed and othered and and Push to the brink, to where they do stuff like that, you know, um, because all that leads to the need for you, all that leads to the need for you, all that leads to the need, the the pseudo need for prisons and courts, which then loops back to now. We have problems with this because you. You see, I'm saying so like it's just like. How do we, um and I don't, I always say, get back to the basics? But the more I say that, I'm realizing that maybe we never been there. But how do we get to the basic understanding that, quite literally, you, these young ladies behind the computer, are my greatest resources, right like we are?
Speaker 1:literally all we have, I think. I think to make your point, I think that we as a society Cannot comprehend that it's okay to disagree.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's 25 years ago Did you have road rage incidents?
Speaker 2:No, no, not not the way we do now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, not the way we do now. Yeah, people are, people are siloed, they're angry. People won't do this because if you don't agree with me, then by God you must be the devil. You have road rage incidents which, when I was a kid, I'd never even heard that term in my entire life. You didn't see people going down the road trying to wreck each other out publicized to, I think. I People can get on on the internet and keyboard warrior and go to war with people. I mean vicious, outrageous crap we can go fight on.
Speaker 4:And nobody's held responsible for it. I blame it on the fact that our our two major parties have Basically preached to us that we should demonize the other side because they disagree with it, that there is no Statement ship left, there's no more. Hey, let's sit down and work out compromise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think we got to own some of that too.
Speaker 3:I think we, the people you know- we're the ones that vote them in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we just let them do whatever and we keep reelecting them.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's just like like yeah see we're agreeing.
Speaker 2:But again, you know, like even the man and I've said this before and people, again my side hates it, where you know I really don't even have a side, but I they, they kind of just pull me. But like, even with the January 6 incident, right, I was just like Maybe we should take a moment to like ask why these folks Felt the need to do this, like why do you actually feel like one? This is your country and you're losing it, right, but we potentially lose having more people join this collective that wants a better country by just shunning these people away. But again, you know I'm crazy for saying all that type of stuff.
Speaker 4:You know I'm so crazy when you got here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I mean, but I don't know man. And then, when it comes to policing, it's very, it's very difficult, it's not easy, like some people say. But again, when I say imagine a world without police is like how can we build a ecosystem, environments will? People don't even feel the need for police, like cuz, and the only way that society can work Is if we take care of one another. The the main reason we need police is because we don't know our fucking neighbors Right like we don't actually know who lives in our neighborhood. So we outsource our, our Responsibility as good neighbors.
Speaker 3:They don't any razor kids. They expect us show up and fix the kid problem that they haven't fixed for the last 15 years.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I admire you, dude, for coming on, because it's easy to sit on social media and I'm not saying you do this, but it's easier for people to sit on social media and take potshots. It's easy to, you know, go hold a megaphone and scream, scream, scream. But it takes some intestinal fortitude to walk in here. You, you weren't shy about it when he called. He's like hey, dude, chas, as he'll come up here and cut it up, it takes some intestinal fortitude to come up here. And you've said a couple times You're like well, I'm gonna piss off my base of people. Well, it's cuz you got common sense and you're trying to navigate through it and we piss off some of our people.
Speaker 3:Sometimes, if you're gonna try and figure out how to navigate and get better, you're trying to figure out how to do it better. Cops are trying to figure out how to do it better every day. That's when we have training and updates and policy shifts and as things change, what can we do better? All the less lethal stuff, all the toys is. So we have other options to not either have to fight or shoot them. We've tried to adapt some other toys so we don't have to do that. But again, kudos to you for having the way. Those To walk in here and sit down and say I don't know what I'm walking into, but I'll sit down and have a conversation.
Speaker 4:Absolutely really appreciate it by the way, if we would all just listen to Jesus's two commandments, which one love God, love each other, if we could, if we could accomplish those two things, you're right, we wouldn't need law enforcement. Yep.
Speaker 3:Amen.
Speaker 4:It's just that simple.
Speaker 2:It really is, man. We over complicate so much, you know. Just like I Don't think people understand. Like, if you just sit back and think about it for like a second, like we are supposed to be, like the highest life forms on this earth which is man, you know, and we are little beings on a spinning rock full of water in a big galaxy Like it's okay to just be like man. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing and I need. I need you. I need your help because it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 4:Yep amen.
Speaker 2:You just make it so difficult. We should all be. I stopped drinking. I'm two years sober in January, Congratulations. But we should all just be like talking about how terrible. The cowboys are eating some good food and.
Speaker 2:You know, drinking and eating and sharing stories and sharing culture, but all this other stuff is is getting. It's getting to a place to where, you know, I think we're gonna be forced to reset and really learn that we are all we got, and I think 2020 gave us a Small example of that, when the world shut down literally. But you know, we'll get there sooner later, you know so. So, again, it's nothing personal when I talk about no, no, policing. It's not the people in the uniform, it's what that uniform represents, has represented.
Speaker 1:Well, I challenge you the next time, maybe, that you have the opportunity to thank a cop, do so. That's a challenge.
Speaker 2:What do you mean?
Speaker 1:like, just like. Well, you have to understand that that the police, the men, women of any police department that's listening or watching this episode, they have a duty to go out there and they want to do it. They have a dedication right and so, because of Situations that you have been a part of an organization that you are the founded, hmm, sometimes that rhetoric this says it did with some of the defund shit yeah, what you've referenced as the wings or maybe Clint did Sometimes that anti law enforcement rhetoric gets back to these cops that just want to do their job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just want to serve their community.
Speaker 1:So my challenge to you is is it next time you see a law enforcement officer like publicly, publicly do it?
Speaker 4:I'll say I'll say, I'll say, I'll probably miss it yeah. Cops are, by and large, just decent, 100% working people trying to do the right thing.
Speaker 2:I'm Believe that about just most every I believe about most of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, round. We'll have a round two which has more. How about that? I'll be back and I'll leave you with this. Statistically, doctors have more malpractices than law enforcement officers have bad incidents. I believe that, but we don't defund caucus and we're not telling doctor. People don't go see doctors, right?
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, see you just started in large, that's part you guys stay safe.
Speaker 1:God bless you. It's the happy holidays. Merry Christmas to you and your family. Thank you for tuning in, chas. Thank you so much for coming on. Greatly, greatly appreciate it, and we will hear from you in round two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll be back All right.
Speaker 1:God bless you guys. God bless Texas for our.
Speaker 4:Oh, oh, oh.
