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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#066- "Internal Affairs" with Marlon Marrache
Join us for a rare opportunity to peek behind the curtain of law enforcement with Marlon Marrache, a retired LAPD officer turned podcaster. In this episode, Marlon shares his extensive experience, delving into the complexities of officer-involved shootings and the toll they take on officers and investigators alike. We explore the intricate processes of Internal Affairs investigations and the need for accountability.
But that's not all—we also get a glimpse into Marlon's personal journey, from his cultural adaptation from Peru to the U.S. to his remarkable transition from high school dropout to Navy serviceman, LAPD officer, and eventually law school graduate.
Marlon's insights into bridging educational gaps in critical incident responses are invaluable. We also tackle the tough questions surrounding police culture and accountability, highlighting the need for platforms like our podcast to foster understanding and dialogue.
This episode celebrates the resilience and commitment of those who serve and protect. Tune in now to gain valuable insights and a deeper appreciation for the work that goes into keeping our communities safe.
Cozen O’Connor Public Strategies - The Beltway BriefingListen for of-the-moment insider insights, framed by the rapidly changing social and...
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
If you get involved in an OIS today and let's just say it's going to take, I don't know, maybe eight months, nine months, to review, you would hope that in those eight months not on the eighth month someone says you know what, clint, those tactics were pretty bad. They were so bad, you deviated substantially that you can't even justify. Guess what? We're going to start an IA.
Speaker 2:Welcome back. Listeners, watchers, viewers. I'm your host, tyler owen clint mcneagher how was uh? How was the drive down?
Speaker 3:it was smooth. I don't know what's going on, if there's some weird holiday I don't know about, but there was no traffic two hours 50 minutes from dallas you were in a panic when you uh pulled into austin city limits.
Speaker 2:There was a a sense of urgency that you needed to get here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was in a hurry. I was wanting to come here and get some business knocked out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how was your weekend?
Speaker 3:It was good. It was busy, but good. How about yours?
Speaker 2:It was good. You know those that know me know that I've always been a lifelong Aggie. I got invited to go to the University of Texas. What do you all call it? The 40? 40 Acre? Is that the reference? First time I've actually got to go to a UT event and man, I've got to say I'm not saying that I'm fully converted. Yet You'll come around. Yeah, my family was man. What a place, what an exciting.
Speaker 3:It's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really was. I enjoyed it, the orange and white game.
Speaker 3:Politics aside, it's a freaking cool school.
Speaker 2:I didn't see or feel any of that. I did see bump into a politician that we might have on later on as a podcast guest, but we shall see. So who do we got on today?
Speaker 3:A fellow podcaster, host YouTuber. Law enforcement Kind of doing a different story and it's cool people getting to hear all sides of it. Retired LAPD, famous LAPD. Welcome on, brother.
Speaker 1:Thanks, brother. I really appreciate it having me here. The flight was good. It was more than two and a half hours. It was about, actually, I think it was about two hours and 30 minutes.
Speaker 3:That ain't bad. If you will, it's not bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're here. Good old Texas. I don't make it here quite often. I do have some Navy buddies I'm sure we'll get into.
Speaker 2:Well you're coming into Austin. So it's probably not. It's very similar to the lifestyle that you live in California. Being in Austin, correct A lot of your fellow.
Speaker 1:Californians live here, we do. I have a really good friend of mine who lives in Fort Worth. I got some Navy buddies who live in Houston and then I have an ex-partner who's I want to say Austin PD.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Then I have another partner who lives. Is it Travis? Travis Lake, lake, travis.
Speaker 3:Lake Travis. You can see, and I skipped over your name, it's Marlon Marachi. I skipped right over the name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fine. The name is, I suppose, when it comes to you know, talking about the podcast and talking about the things we want to do, yeah, it's never really about us, it's more about the rank and file man. That's what we're here for.
Speaker 2:Well, and your podcast? Speaking of that, your podcast name is the Eternal Affairs Podcast. We spoke briefly via Instagram, I think, and then spoke on the phone. But, man, you've got quite a good following for you being just jumping right into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what, contrary to the belief of the title, and, believe me, I have that partner say, hey, marlon, you know why so bold. You know, and being a law enforcement instructor, one of the things that I learned the most is you know what clarity, clarity will always win. You know, be simple and don't give it a fancy, cute name. Just call it what it is and it, you know it attracts curiosity because it's I really believe that it's a topic that not many people really want to talk about or it's a bit taboo. You know, something happens within your own agency and you get an IA and next thing, you know it's hush, hush and if you're in a small agency, the rumors spread and everybody knows that you just like, you're like a suspect.
Speaker 1:Now, right, even your buddy, even the one you went to the academy with you guys, wives know each other when each other's wedding and one makes sergeant and the other one's still working the streets and the sergeant gets an IA and it's your buddy. He still has to act like, oh, you know what, I can't talk to you. So I just feel like there's a lot of division, there's a lot of misunderstanding and there's a lot of perception of what internal affairs really is, and so I decided, for many reasons, to put it on the platform, on YouTube, and, you know, let's get some conversations going about what we can learn about being a really good internal affairs investigator. Or, if you were an accused employee and they made all these accusations against you, tell us if we can learn something from that. You know, I mean, take some accountability and, you know, let's go forward when you and I talked.
Speaker 2:I reached out to Clint and I said hey, man, you sitting down. He said yeah. Of course, he's worked for TMPA. For how long? 12 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 13 years Of course you know that our bread and butter is legal representation. I said, man, I just talked to a guy in California that was I'm not going to say strike one. We have a lot of friends in California. But I said I think it'd be kind of interesting. I said, but I'll be honest, I'm kind of leery. I don't know if our viewers or watchers or listeners would kind of like to hear an internal affairs guy. And so he said what? And I said, yeah, there's a guy that's in California that's got an internal affairs podcast and he's like. And he's like, oh man, we've got to do a little bit of research on this. And so I started listening to some of your podcasts and I was like, hey, I think we're good to go. So it sort of cleansed.
Speaker 3:So to dispel any rumors, if they click on the Internal Affairs podcast, it doesn't alert their internal affairs. It doesn't, they don't.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm going to call you. You'll be the first one to know.
Speaker 1:I'm actually interested to see if command staff active command staff actually says, hey, you know, yeah, I'm waiting for a phone call, but you know what? And to realize it all is that there really isn't. There's not much really. You know ranting, or you know, have someone with an axe to grind, because I've had 35 guests thus far and not one has been heading down the road where we can say hey, you know, let me tell you about this commander, and let me tell you about that captain, and let me tell you about this rumor. You know what? Let's get factual. So, yeah, no, interesting, the radar button hasn't been hit yet.
Speaker 3:Well, and I made it a joke because at times in your career when things are bad or it feels rough, you feel like he's like the gestapo and you know and I've been there you know you're in a burnout phase and working nights stuck with bad days off and I is out to get me and what's funny is every person I've ever personally spoke to that was in. I hated working ia, but it's a service. I mean, somebody's got to go in there and do it, and at garland we used to, because it was a two-year rotation at garland and so I'd walk my butt, walk by a buddy and be like how long, and they could tell you how many days left until they got paroled.
Speaker 3:And they'd be like yeah, I got you know, I got 12 and a wake up and then I get paroled and get my papers and get out of IA and um and I via and um and I think it's cool your podcast with what you're doing. I teach an officer of shooting class and I teach it from the perspective of what somebody involved in the shooting is going to experience, but also teach it from the aspect of what the investigator, why things happen like, why you may go to grand jury, why they may take your photo, why they may count your rounds because I think if there's an understanding behind it, it less lessens that. Oh my God, IA is out to get me. Or you know, police shooting. They showed up to work my police shooting. They're just here to try and get me in trouble. There's a process behind all of it that plays out and a necessity for the transparency that we have, and I think it's a cool opportunity for people to get some understanding of what the IA process is.
Speaker 1:No, absolutely. Just to kind of jump on that a little bit about an OIS, a critical incident, if you will, not many people are educated from the criminal perspective and also the administrative proceedings. So, for example, if you get involved in an OIS today and let's just say it's going to take I don't know, maybe eight months, nine months, to review and say, hey, it was a good shoot or a bad shoot in policy or out of policy, well, you would hope that in those eight months not on the eighth month someone says you know what, clint, those tactics were pretty bad. They were so bad you deviated substantially that you can't even justify. Guess what.
Speaker 1:We're going to start an IA. Well, it's been eight months, you know, you would think someone would actually catch it way before and any defense attorney is going to argue. Well, I'm pretty sure there was conversations or there's an email or a text or something along the lines that when the incident actually went down there was some concerns about the tactics that you deployed in this critical incident. So those are just the kind of issues, if you will, that you want to be able to educate the public and not many people know that.
Speaker 2:Well, and see, I mean theoretically, and I'm sure it may be like this in California, but every single OIS at reputable or large departments here in Texas, every single OIS involves some type of internal review, Correct, so every single OIS involves some type of internal affairs investigation. I mean, right, oh, absolutely so. I mean so it's anything you say to an investigator that's going over the policy. That's your statement. I mean that technically, could be your statement.
Speaker 1:Correct. The problem is that the culture within internal affairs and not many people know about, is that somehow some way. And it doesn't happen all the time, of course. Oiss don't happen all the time, so we're talking about a very small fraction of incidents is that it doesn't get either discussed or it doesn't get brought up, but somehow some way. When it's up for review, some command staff officer just decides to say you know what? Those tactics were bad. So what did you guys do? You guys talk about it. Well, yeah, here's the statement. Well, you know what? No, we want to do an IA. What you would think to your point is yes, the statement that was made right there. And then I guess what I'm trying to say is is that to provide a better service and to avoid that stigma that you guys are the rat squad on the dark side? Don't be, you know that blue falcon? Yep, if you will, yep.
Speaker 3:Universal term, absolutely.
Speaker 1:In the end, you know, if you're going to be that blue, let's just, let's just get it done. If you really feel that my taxes were substantially, you know deviation, let's, let's get it done in the front end, not the backend. And that's what normally happens, but not all the time.
Speaker 2:What's irritating is is that and I'm not suggesting that all I internal affair guys are like this, or even administrators, but what's irritating is some administrators don't put the lens on when certain officers do things or are faced with decisions that don't necessarily line up with policies. You know the officer or our members technically get scrutinized for it and the administrator doesn't seem to put themselves in that they forget where they come from and I think they don't realize where the member of that officer is faced with. Great example, you know it's an officer down call. Every single department in America probably has a policy in place where you can't go 10 miles an hour over the speed limit. I'm just giving an example If one of my brothers is gone or down and I need to get to him, and it's a life-threatening situation, I may go over 10 miles an hour. I'm just giving a very… the gray area we have to operate, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so to nail an officer about a tactics that he had to go home that night for a situation. I think that's where we have a problem with the bad leadership and that's where the bad leadership comes in and that's where the scrutiny comes in from our perspective is that you've got to show a little bit of empathy and compassion on that kind of stuff Most definitely.
Speaker 1:And again just to be clear, it's not just also just on critical incidents.
Speaker 3:This is just a use of force.
Speaker 1:I mean uses of forces. You'll review them and review and review them. You know how it goes. It gets to the next little review, then the next little review, then six months go by and some command staff officer says you know what, those taxes just weren't that good. You, but you know what, just those taxes just weren't that good. You know what. Go ahead and do an IA Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second, you know time out. That's just not a good way to practice. If we're going to be scrutinized under tactics and we're going to do an IA, just you feel it's like really misconduct. You violated policy to your point. We should have caught that way before. Know, that's, that's my point and it's just it's a practice that I felt like having a podcast and having these conversations.
Speaker 3:we just don't have those kind of conversations for we have a lot of non-police listeners, and so we're talking about I internal affairs. Yes, so when an officer really anytime an officer does their job, there are three scrutinies that we're under today we're talking about administratively. Internal affairs is an administrative review. Did they violate policy? Were they driving too fast? Did they say bad words? Did they do things that weren't within policy administratively?
Speaker 3:The other one, completely unrelated, that we're talking about today is criminally. There will be a complete and separate criminal investigation. That is doesn't care if maybe you drove too fast or said hurtful words. They want to make sure you didn't violate the penal code, violate the law. And the third is civil, because at some point, generally there's a two-year statute of limitations and at some point you can be subject to a civil suit, which is something completely separate and usually comes well after all these incidents. And so that people understand we're not talking about criminal violations so much today as administrative, an internal affairs investigation. Did you violate the department-specific policies? And LAPD's policies may be vastly different than San Diego PD's and San Francisco's, and so there's not a blanket policy scrutiny when you look at something on face value of how somebody operates. No, totally.
Speaker 2:And this may be a good point being the fact that, sadly, a lot of our how can I put this? Clint Rogue DAs are kind of Activist DAs.
Speaker 2:They're following the California trend and we've had numerous lengthy conversations about this is that we are seeing that some DAs here in Texas, in these counties, primarily for just because an officer violates policy that does not break state law and that does not allow them to go after an indictment for an officer, and that's the trend that we're starting to see and that to fulfill a political agenda. I hate to say it, but that's really been y'all's world and how y'all have dealt with it. Are y'all continuing to see that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, there's 58 counties in the state of California Clint and I were having this conversation earlier where you know what today's OIS is not what it was. I'd probably even go and say maybe five, seven years, about seven years ago. And then you know we have an internal affairs two-day course where we teach internal affairs the first day and the second day is OIS investigations. You know scene management and other stuff, and we constantly tell all these new sergeants you know sergeants that are getting into the internal affairs assignment and some officers, corporals, also attend the class that you know what. Unfortunately, you're one incident away from a criminal filing and that's just. That's the God honest truth and it's it's. It's a big hurdle for young officers to recognize and to know that you know what. Here I am in a situation where I have to make a. I mean, the average OIS is what? Less than two seconds.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 1:And even though in your mind, right your perception you really felt as though everything you're doing was textbook. I mean, of course there's real-life variables, right but all these basic concepts that were taught to you, you have them in your mind and you pull the trigger and here you are and you're just having to wonder whether or not they're going to file criminally on you. So back in the days it wasn't like that. I've been to a whole bunch of different types of walkthroughs where we do respond to an OIS, where that wasn't a concern, where today, to your point, it's a major concern.
Speaker 2:Well, we kind of jumped ahead just a little bit. We typically kind of start off every podcast with who the hell is Marlon? Where'd you grow up? I think, given your background, give us some validity of why your podcast is called Internal Affairs Podcast. So talk about where you grew up at and then we'll kind of slot into your law enforcement and military career. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, lima, peru, man born and raised. So I don't know if they have any Peruvian restaurants out here, but if they do, I'm sure you've eaten Lomo Saltado. Papo La Huancaina, but if they do, I'm sure you've eaten lomo saltado. You know papa la huancaina, ceviche, all that stuff. Contrary to the belief, when I came to the States they mentioned the word ceviche. Mexican friends and family members will claim that their ceviche dish is like the best, and I just found that so, so strange, because the Peruvian ceviches were originated. I guess if you're from Peru, you will know that that doesn't look like a ceviche.
Speaker 3:Are they?
Speaker 1:similar Right. And then what happens?
Speaker 3:is Cilantro fresh fish? Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what We'll work on that? All right, come to LA, I'll take you.
Speaker 3:I'm in.
Speaker 1:I'm in my treat for sure. English is my second language and you know 20, oh God. I've been here since 1980. So 40 plus years have passed by and it's become my primary language. Life was great in Peru. I came here to live with my mom and I was 12 years old that's cool and I redshirted for two months to get into seventh grade and then on seventh grade it was on man. It was just quite an awakening in this culture because you know, here I am, I'm a little English. I came here in 77 and 78 before I went back to Peru.
Speaker 3:To Orange County. Is that where you came from? Los Angeles, okay.
Speaker 1:Los Angeles, california, in the 818, the San Fernando Valley. If any of you are familiar with the, I live in Granada Hills. I've always lived in the San Fernando Valley and life was great. I love soccer. I came here and I fell in love with baseball. All three of them right. I mean baseball, basketball and American football. Of course we call it football, but you know I fell in love with um, oh gosh, let's see. I watched dan pastorini uh from the houston oilers, handed off to erin, uh, earl campbell, and I just thought this guy was what is this guy doing? 272 yards in one game was just unbelievable mowing people down yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, uh, my first year here was the e against the Raiders in the Super Bowl and I believe Jaws didn't win, was it Plunkett? Yeah, the Raiders won. And so big sports guy came here in high school. I hated high school. I hated anything that had to do with books or education, so I pretty much dropped out in my last semester of high school, began working. Just needed money. You know, I just got kind of tired of asking my mom for money and I wanted to work and help her out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, help her out, but help myself out, because I knew that she was, you know, working hard, you know, to maintain a really good family, all four of us. And so, um, let's see, seven years go by and I decided to get my GED and my high school diploma and I joined the Navy at 24, 25 years old, uss Constellation and an aircraft carrier. I did two tours, uh, in the Persian Gulf, two Westpacs. For all you Navy people out there, and my best friend that I've known since high school, at the time that I joined the Navy, he decided to apply for the LAPD and that was my big influence is knowing that he really enjoyed it. I mean we were compatible, I mean we were like two peas in a pod man, we just liked everything and I didn't want to reenlist.
Speaker 1:I started doing my countdown 248 days in a wake-up man, I just I wasn't a lifer, it wasn't going to happen. I applied for the LAPD before my last Westpac tour, so I was gone for six months. What year was that you applied? That would be 1997. And then, come July 1998, congratulations, you get the appointment to the Los Angeles Police Academy.
Speaker 3:And here we are Probably a pretty good transition, because police work is paramilitary, whether people want to admit it or not. You're fresh out of the military straight into LAPD, so it's probably not a giant culture shock really.
Speaker 1:No, not at all. It was so easy because I get to go home Come 2 or 3 o'clock and come back to the boot camp.
Speaker 1:I'm not racking it and just thinking to myself why did I even join? I want to go home to my mom. So bad it was challenging for me academically. Of course, I always tell people and if you're out there thinking or in the process of becoming a police officer, you're going to get challenged four ways Definitely mentally, definitely psychologically, physically and, last but not least, academically. So if you're going to junior college or you're in college, chances are and you get them from, you know they should get them from different walks of life. You might get someone that is really good academically but they might struggle to, you know, to run a mile man or do push-ups, calisthenics and the whole nine, and then, mentally and emotionally, it's uh, it's quite a ride. You really need to think about exactly what it is that you're getting yourself into.
Speaker 1:So the academy was great. I did, um, oh gosh, before I became sergeant. I got promoted to sergeant in 2007 and so from 1998 to 2007 I did my time in the streets. Uh, you know some of my partners, so you didn't do it long enough. What section?
Speaker 1:of LA did you work in Mostly the San Fernando Valley where I grew up. It's kind of weird. It's a trip Patrolling your own streets. Really, I used to actually live here. Even my high school work in high school football games that's cool. Yeah, it was cool and it was quite a ride.
Speaker 1:You know what the times that I think about and reminisce on the streets compared to what it is now, it's just those are endless partners and all and so in 2007, I got promoted to sergeant and that's where my discipline career kind of took off. I did my probationary periods of sergeant and patrol. I ended up working in South Los Angeles in a community program and then, lo and behold, I got my bachelor's and I just I got this bug in me that you know what I love discipline so much. I decided to go to law school and went to law school and all I wanted to do was to retire and be a police attorney. You know, for the union that was my main goal. And so from 2000, I want to say 2008, up until now, I've been really fully involved in discipline. Lucky me that I've worked both sides.
Speaker 1:And so in LAPD, like any other agency, has internal affairs. The big difference is that we're the only agency in the entire United States that has a border rights hearing process. So, for example, if you are brought up on serious allegations of misconduct, the chief is going to call you in and pretty much fire you and then you got to go through civil service to appeal and get your job back. That's not the way it works in LAPD. Basically, the chief says you know what these allegations are so serious. I'm going to direct you to this hearing, but my recommendation is termination. But your faith pretty much lies on these three board members, this panel Command staff, two command staff officers and one civilian, and recently they changed it to three civilian hearing examiners. So you have the choice, you have an option and that was my job.
Speaker 1:My job was to. I got hired to pretty much be a prosecuting glorified attorney and cops were facing some serious termination. And I got to tell you, man, talk about an emotional roller coaster, knowing that cops are about to lose it all. I must have done about 30-plus of these hearings. I probably prepared for about 40. You know a whole bunch of them settled and out of the 30, five of them were righteous terminations where they were found guilty for lying, for the most part. So a false or a misleading statement is pretty much, you know, as you know, as weird as this may sound, your best bang for your buck to prosecute an accused sworn officer for lying, and we can all agree. We just don't want bad actors in this, in this profession, and so that was quite a ride. But what's more interesting is that what happens to those other 25? Or, hey, marlon, you only did five out of the 30.
Speaker 1:And that's one of many reasons why this started to start a podcast is because a lot of what we think we, the public, or just all the stakeholders, command staff or even your partners or your colleagues we think it's serious. Guess what it's not. And so maybe you know why are we here for three or four days in a hearing? To waste time for what? For a neglected duty or a violation of policy? Maybe that captain at that division could have made that decision. And if it's sustained, which means it occurred, then why don't you just give him suspension? I don't know, give him paper penalty, official reprimand or give him a one-day, two-day suspension. But you spent four days introducing all this evidence, brought in witnesses to hear all this testimony, and you know for what. And so that's when I started realizing that a lot of these ia cases and you can agree to this is my mantra is no stone goes unturned.
Speaker 3:A lot of these investigators either are lazy, they cut corners or, like you said, they're paroled in a job that they really don't want to do well and I think what's said to I was hired at Garland under a bunch of former Marines and the ones that weren't former hardcore Marines were old-school cops. The chief that got hired right after I got on was an old-school, long-time narc. He'd done it all, seen it all, and back then I mean you had to do something pretty egregious to get in trouble. But don't think you Captain, back then we called him Commander, wouldn't call you in and completely shred rip, and I was in the military. I would rather you give me a little piece of paper, you know, a document of counseling, than to call me in and tell me I'm the dumbest ass you've ever seen. And what the hell was I thinking? You freaking idiot that's. I mean, that was more punishment to me than any documented statement or anything like that. And I didn't have a lot of. I didn't have a lot of discipline in my career, but nowadays there's a lot of departments where I mean you freaking sneeze wrong. Oh, we've got to start an internal affairs Cut paper. I wrecked a car doing something boneheaded and I thought when I left there like my life was over and I was terminated and my police career. That stuck with me. I promise you, I drove better and made a whole lot better decisions.
Speaker 3:After a commander that I really respected told me I was less than a piece of dirt and we've gotten away from leadership. I feel like a little bit and now everything's. Oh, you got mud on your boots. We better start an IA. There's some agencies where it's really there. There's an agency up in north texas that, uh, their chief is now on probably his fourth stop in five years and everywhere he goes, um, he was recently at a town near me, sunnyvale. Everybody in the agency was on a pip. Everybody in the agency had two or three you know counseling statements in their file and it wasn't a big agency. And I'm like do you really think that's leadership? Where, oops, you bumped a curb and put a door ding in your car, you're on a PIP and documented counseling. I'm certainly not saying we don't hold people accountable, but the pendulum really swung from leadership to I will pencil whip you to death your career.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, 100%. I mean the impact. A counseling session, you're getting called into the captain's office or the chief's office. It's just yeah, it's a wow, you know what? I'm never going to do that again. Interestingly enough, I had Joe Gamaldi on the show not too long ago. Oh, you did yes, he's uh. Interestingly enough, I had uh, joe gamaldi on the show not too long ago. Oh, you did yes he's awesome.
Speaker 3:Joe is low energy. Oh my god doesn't talk much.
Speaker 1:I started to yeah, he goes. You have to ask me, marlin. I told him I say, hey, bro, check this out. I know we just met and you saw internal affairs. Please tell me. I know, I know you thought, oh, I didn't think you were gonna ask me, but now that you asked, I'm gonna tell you exactly what I thought about internal affairs. He, him and I had a conversation where we think about systems and best practices. If you will, discipline is the most archaic system that we've had and we, for whatever reason, to your point, we don't, we don't change it. Why can't we call someone in when they do just a minor violation of policy and just sit them down and you know, and and and just give them one and let them know that, hey, man, this is it, as opposed to you know counseling someone and you know counseling someone.
Speaker 3:I think, leadership has changed.
Speaker 1:I think leadership is diminishing. How about?
Speaker 2:money, money's another motivator.
Speaker 2:Well, but I think it's even deeper than that. I think right now, just me thinking and looking at the bigger picture. With the recruitment crisis in law enforcement, we all know that when you're on patrol, there are days that we go to work and we're like man, I don't feel like doing a whole lot. Yeah, okay, with the recruitment crisis the way it is and the situations within the last four or five years being the way they are, with us being under such a microscope, I think officers are. I'm not. I'm not saying that we're scared to be proactive. I'm not saying that, but the reality is this. We've had this conversation about being proactive, and being proactive puts you more at risk of possibly putting yourself under internal affairs.
Speaker 3:I think de-policing is 100% real. Career survival, absolutely Sitting under a shade tree. I won't get in trouble at all.
Speaker 2:There you go, and I think that that's kind of where somewhat law enforcement is somewhat headed to. Yeah, no, totally.
Speaker 1:Whatever that MDC or that, you know what we're ready to call. I'm going yeah, it's what we call obs work, observation type of work and you know what's interesting about recruitment to your point is that when we came on the job, I was just excited that I'm going to start a profession. My mom was like man, you finally made something out of yourself. You know in a jokingly way, but I did. I was so excited and I really depended a lot of my commitment and drive and passion to my best friend. But today kids are smarter now. Now there's more social media, there's more awareness and the masses some some think you know what? I think, get my civil engineer degree. So you know what? Oh, wait a minute. They make 80,000, a hundred thousand over in California. I'm out there. I didn't get my nursing degree or I didn't do it, and they mean to pick on that profession. It just popped up in my mind, but any other profession that you were seeking and it just didn't work out. You know what? Now I'm just going to go be a cop.
Speaker 1:One, two here's the other problem, and this goes for a criminal justice system. Really, you want me to be a police officer and I'm going to put I'd respond to a call and this guy just committed a major burglary or major robbery or a major domestic violence and we're going to go book him go through the whole process and what? In three hours he's out. Yep again. What difference am I making? So those are the factors that come into play, now more so than ever before or he's out before I clear the done the report.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But to your I mean to to your point about the putting paper in your life. It just diminishes our proactiveness of wanting to do the job itself Like, I think, leadership. Good leaders are like man. Yeah, he drove a little fast in that car. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to ruffle the feathers. I mean, the times of law enforcement are different and some of the good leadership and command staff, I think, recognize the daily struggles and challenges that the boots-on-the-ground law enforcement officers go through. And it's probably challenging for, I would say, several ad man people in today's times too, because we've all had coworkers that we know is that loose cannon that we've worked with.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But we're all. Let me back up. We've had coworkers that are loose cannons that we don't want showing up on our calls, because those are the guys that. Yeah, no totally Add the flames. But then we have the loose cannons that we want to show up on calls that we want to run to the gates of hell with.
Speaker 1:And don't forget, there's always one blue Falcon in every department. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:At least one, yeah, yep, a hundred percent. Anyway, I'll score a moment.
Speaker 1:So, uh, let's see, I took you to 2007,. Right, so let's take that trip down memory lane. And um made Sergeant then and yeah, I retired after 15 years of being a Sergeant. So I did 24 years with LAPD. I ended up finishing law school, I took the bar, uh wanting to you know practice law and get my license, and uh came close twice. And so you know, someday it'll happen. But I'm having so much uh fun and success uh doing the podcast.
Speaker 2:It's okay, Marlon. I didn't pass the drone, so I can relate, I can relate.
Speaker 3:What's cool man. Um, and for for kids watching this man, what a cool, freaking story. Cause I barely got out of high school. I hated school. Just wasn't interested, I just. I feel like I was wasting my time.
Speaker 1:I had something else I could be doing but I got an A and P though, yeah, so just for the record but it's cool, you didn't finish.
Speaker 3:And now here you are today bachelor's degree, a law degree, I mean for anybody that thinks, well, you can't do it or I'm not a great student, so I better not do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what a cool story, thank you. Yeah, don't quit. Perseverance should be at your highest level when you fall and pick yourself back up and go man, you know what it happens to all of us. And, yeah, I felt education was super important. I have a daughter, so I wanted to also reflect to say hey, my dad he's up there.
Speaker 1:He's got a degree and she's now a junior in college, so that's great. But, yeah, you know what Quite a ride and I just really involve myself in discipline. Now, before we forget also is that LAPD is so big that they actually have a whole unit called officer representation section, and so what you guys call your union members, we actually do that work. Our primary duty is to respond to all these critical incidents, oass being the most popular because they happen the most At one point in 2017, a 100 OASs in one year yeah, that's a lot. And so the union sends the attorney because they're only getting paid to represent a shooting officer, right? Well, guess who's left doing all the other percipient witnesses, and substantially involved is the rep.
Speaker 1:So, you know, practice after practice, to get the compel statement. You know, you got the sergeant that was there with the public safety statement, the command of control. Who saw it? Who saw and heard it? Who heard it? Oh, wait, a minute, there was an airship. Oh, we're going to interview them too and get them, you know, to get the compel statement. So I developed a lot of you know experience in that.
Speaker 1:And then our secondary duty was you call me up and say you know, hey, marlon, you know what? Hey, sarge this eye that I got. I just got served. We call it a skelly. I just got served and it says sustaining. Guess what man, it didn't happen. That's not the way it went down. I'm like, okay, well, do yourself a favor. Why don't you read that from beginning to end soup to nuts, a to z and ask yourself, when they frame these allegations in internal affairs, ask yourself you did that or you're, or you didn't, because sustained means it occurred. So the department's saying is that you did this, but if it's unfounded, which means that it didn't happen, you need to let me know. So oftentimes they will call me and say that's not the way it went down. And so, rather than writing a response, which is what we call a skelly, I go to a hearing.
Speaker 1:I just like hearings, I like to argue. I mean, I went to law school for a reason, right. So we would argue in front of a hearing officer and pretty much point the finger to internal affairs saying hey, hearing officer, they got it wrong and let me tell you the reasons why. So that's where all this discipline experience came. So you know when someone will call me. And you know this.
Speaker 1:Your best friend will only tell you what you want to hear. You know that when they get an IA, you know what? This is bullshit. The department's after me and they're all disgruntled. And then they'll tell you oh yeah, this is what happened. Okay, well, then send me the IA and then you start reading it and you call your best friend up and you go like, hey, bro, there's like three paragraphs that you didn't tell me about, and so I had a little bit of you know, some cred, some street cred, if you will, and say, hey, man, I just came from my. I'm telling you right now there's not, we have no defense, there's nothing that we can do to overturn from an unfound I'm sorry, from a sustained to an unfounded. So develop all that experience. And you know what? Now we teach a California post certified course. Teach the next generation.
Speaker 1:I know it's 16 hours and we're getting ready to divorce the two day to a three day. So we're now going to have a three-day mandated IA course and we're going to have a two-day OIS course.
Speaker 2:And that's.
Speaker 1:California mandated.
Speaker 2:Yes so.
Speaker 1:California no, this is California. So the state of California pretty much says that if you make Sargent you have to go to a three-day IA course. So we're going to be competing with other vendors to do that. But we all know, come on, how sexy is internal affairs. If you're a new sergeant and you're listening out there, you getting ball and told to go to that assignment. Or, like my buddy Clint said here, you're going to get paroled and counting your days.
Speaker 1:Look, it's not something you go. Oh my God, I cannot wait to go to internal affairs, course it. Just it doesn't happen that way. Oh my God, I cannot wait to go to an internal affairs course. It doesn't happen that way. But we make it fun, man, it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 3:We had one guy that was excited to be in internal affairs and he turned out to be who you didn't want in internal affairs and we all talked about it at the department. It's like, yeah, I guess it should have been a clue when he was excited and asked to go. Should have been a clue of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting. You say that, cause. One of the questions I ask on the podcast to my guests is what character traits would you want out of an internal affairs investigator? You know so, the more you ask those questions, the more you listen and the more you watch. Maybe, hopefully, that command staff has got that radar button, maybe they won't push it and they'll say that's a really good question, because maybe, as a command staff officer, you know what. Maybe I should pick Clint, maybe I should pick Marlon, you know what. Maybe I should have someone who's going to be fair. Leave all your biases at the door, don't have any expectations.
Speaker 1:You get a face sheet. It's what we call a face right. When you cut paper and you get a face sheet, guess what, man, it doesn't always turn out that what you think it is, you know. And so and here's the bigger question too, is are you in it to protect cops? You know some will say, yes, right, but when you get that one case that's, uh, got a sexual assault or you know child pornography, you're like I don't know about that, you know so yeah it's, it's, it's a fine line.
Speaker 1:I can tell you that from experience it's. You got to walk a really good, you know fine line. Threat lightly and just be informative. Be there for them when they're going through the darkest moments but at the same time, do your job as fair and impartial.
Speaker 2:I had a ranger tell me that he's not trying to protect law enforcement, he's not trying to protect the truth, he's just trying to protect the good.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I think, looking at it from that perspective. Back to your point about the sexual assault cops do on occasion very, very small amount. Uh, you know, we are kind of our worst enemy at times, uh, but when I heard that I was like man. That's a. That's a really good way to process and think about it yeah, you know what?
Speaker 1:uh, I was mentored by a commander a long long time ago when I made charge in 2007. He will always say marlin, you know what? Let your ego and your politics keep. Keep it at the door, man, don't ever make it about you. And that's the best advice I've ever gotten, especially when it comes to internal affairs. You know what. Make it about the process. You know wherever it takes you when you're investigating and gathering all this evidence, but make sure you're that IO that's gathering every single point, every single part. No stone goes unturned. You're right, you're protecting the good.
Speaker 1:And so, going back to critical incidents, yeah, there is a role where you need to protect the officers. You don't want them, like we were talking earlier, where, you know, here you are trying to get the public safety statement and your body warm video is on and you're just saying a whole bunch of stuff like oh my God, I can't believe. Can you imagine having it on someone? You say oh my God, I can't believe I shot him, I can't believe I, is he dead? I killed, you know, and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you know. And then what's the defense attorney going to do? Is going to grab all that and just you know interpret it the way where makes you look like you're just this bad, evil person.
Speaker 3:So yeah, and I think that's a misnomer sometimes too that we get as an association. Oh well, you're going to send your lawyer out there to lie for the officer and cover up for the officer. I promise you I'm not going to lose my job to go lie for somebody. I guarantee you. We have probably 150 lawyers across the state that are the most professional attorneys in the country. One of them's not going to lose their career over Billy Bob and you know nowhere Texas that's going to cover up or lie or something. I promise you none of our attorneys are going to come lie Um, and really in this day and time, with the technology that's out there, with body cameras in car cameras, cell phones, with everything going on, the facts are the facts and you mentioned earlier I think offline about walkthroughs.
Speaker 3:When I started early on, walkthroughs were a huge thing. You got to do a walkthrough or at least give the public safety statement and just say, well, I was kind of standing in this area and really a lot of Texas. We've gotten away from walkthroughs and people ask why? And I'm like, because there's 48 freaking recordings of it. I mean, we literally have 10 recordings of how this thing went down. What else can you add to HD 4K visual. What else can you add to that?
Speaker 1:100%. I think walkthroughs is kind of like a thing of the past. It's a past practice. You know 4k, you know visual.
Speaker 3:What else can you add to that? 100%, I think. Watch this is kind of like a thing of the past. It's a practice. And what are you going to lie? Well, no, I didn't shoot him. Okay, we have 10 videos showing you. Did you know what I mean? Totally the facts. In this day and time, I'm sure in the seventies, when it was your word against my word, and in this day and time, with technology and with with physical evidence and the ability to evaluate evidence, everything that's going on right now, the facts are the facts, whether they're pretty or ugly, it's just the way it goes.
Speaker 3:The facts are just the facts and I told to your point a while ago of you know you get a statement and then having to call your friend going ah, you left this out. And one of the things I used to struggle with as an a rep at the agency is I can't help you If you omit, if you forget to tell me some parts of the story. I can't help you what?
Speaker 3:And even if it's an ugly part, I need to know we kind of need to know, cause finding out when it gets shoved down our throat is probably not the best time. And the facts are the facts. We'll work with the facts.
Speaker 1:Exactly we kind of need them, yeah, and the point is is that you'll just hear what you want to hear. Yeah, not all the time. And, by the way you know, just want to make sure that you know with Clinton Tyler that we're, when we start talking about internal affairs or just discipline in general, it's a very, very small fraction. Oh yeah, of course, I believe you guys have like 30,000 members, is that correct?
Speaker 3:34,000.
Speaker 1:34,000. So let's keep it real here. And you know, but here's the deal it's a topic that is so, so important and passionate of mine because we can learn so much from it. You know, again, contrary to the belief of the title of the podcast, there's some really good conversations. You know, it's because some I've had some guests who were accused and you know what Accountability goes a long way. I tell them look, you know what? I had a guest who had a 40 day suspension early in his career. 20-something years later he gets the Medal of Valor. Wow, now he's running the detective training unit. So there's a lot to learn from and I'm hoping that this will spark up to get a hold of both of you guys to say, hey, you know what? Yeah, kind of, let me tell my story, because what I don't want, especially the veterans, right, yeah, they're getting ready to walk out the door and if there's something that we can learn from that mishap, let's do it.
Speaker 3:Man, it's real important and two things to your point on that. We hire from the human race.
Speaker 2:Humans are flawed.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And until we figure out how to make robots, which Exxon's probably working on right now, we hire from the human race. Humans are flawed. That's not an excuse, correct? But when you have 83,000 cops in America, there's a chance. One of them is just not a good.
Speaker 2:In Texas yes, 380,000.
Speaker 3:Yes 83,000 cops in Texas. There's a chance one of them's got ill will evil intent whatever it is. And the second part of that is I promise you there is no one hates a bad cop more than good cops.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, 100%. One of the first questions I ask on the show is, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest rate, the importance of internal affairs in the police department, and a lot of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest rate, the importance of internal affairs in the police department, and a lot of people say 10s. Of course I'm a little biased because I work there, but my 10 goes to the point where, in any function that you do as a police officer whether it's operational, administrative, tactical, specializing, no matter what, to your point of the human element, something's going to go wrong, something's going to happen. Murphy's law and guess what? There might be an AI involved.
Speaker 3:Maybe I don't know. It was shocking to me. I worked 350-man department, decent-sized agency, not giant, not small, and two or three years ago was at some event, a public event, and listening to a conversation and they're spouting about, well, you know, you worked at a big agency, I know you were around dirty cops all the time and I thought, oh, they were just trying to poke the bear. So I get into a conversation and she legitimately assumed that there's a couple good cops and that most cops are, you know, shaken down, illegal. You know Hispanics and you know drunk on the job and stealing, and and it was.
Speaker 3:I opened it cause she believed it and she wasn't. She wasn't like a thug, she was a you know middle america, just a normal lady, and she not a bad person, right, that was her belief system. And I'm like ma'am, in my career we had a dude get fired for theft in my my career. Was there probably some others that did some as far as criminally that did something I have no idea Could have been. Maybe they did, didn't get caught. But I know of one officer that had committed a theft and we fired him promptly and that I know of. He was never in law enforcement again and I was shocked that that happened. But I asked her. I said do you think we sit in briefing? And you're like, hey, let's just see if we can go find a black dude rolling around, just you know, pull him out the window and she's like you, don't, let's go to my god bless lady, but that's that's.
Speaker 3:We have to be aware of that absolutely, because she, she swears.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what she thought it and it goes to the point where I I always say this you know there's over 18,000 agencies in the entire United States. There's over 800 north of you can quote me on that 800,000. I think it's north of 800,000 sworn officers, peace officers, in the entire nation. And you know what. We have a lot of work to do. We do which is one of the reasons why we have these platforms, so we can educate and make some awareness. And what the crappiest part about all this is, to that conversation you have with that lady and to these you know, landmark events like george floyd and what happened in ferguson, what happened in kenosha, go on and on. We get painted with such a broad brush. Now, all of a sudden, you know all 18,000 agencies. You guys are all bad and you know what I will always say there will never be enough platforms for police podcasts. There won't. Up until the day we go to our graves, there still won't be.
Speaker 3:And what people don't understand, even in my career. In this day and time, right now, we discipline, terminate, prosecute and hold officers accountable at a rate higher than in the history of law enforcement, but yet people still have the opinion that we drive down the street and thump people and rob people. And that's not enough, yeah, yeah. So what do you do?
Speaker 2:Yep, well, was there any other stuff that you wanted to cover?
Speaker 1:No, you know what I love having these conversations. I feel like you know, we've you know, I guess we can continue this conversation one day over a beer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I'll be in LA.
Speaker 1:Yes, you have to come to LA. Both of you guys are open door invitation. Let to LA. Both of you guys are open door invitation. Let's do it. To come to the studio, we'll chop it up, have a really good conversation. I just really appreciate. You know Bosh, I've seen him and I know him and I like the show. Oh, that's fake, it is, but it's pretty.
Speaker 1:One of the reasons why I like it is because a lot of the events and the episodes and the series like the seasons depicted. Lot of the events in the episodes in the series like the seasons depicted some of the stuff that happened in LAPD.
Speaker 2:It depicts LAPD probably the best as far as detective shows. Have you seen that show?
Speaker 3:I didn't.
Speaker 2:You know what you're talking about yeah, you've got to see it.
Speaker 3:Sorry, it's a movie, TV show yeah.
Speaker 1:I got him hooked on Suits the other day. Now he's stuck on it. I'm done with Suits. It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 3:Suits is awesome.
Speaker 2:It's one of the reasons why I went to law school.
Speaker 1:You have to watch Bosch. I need to buy all those suits, man, I've never even heard of it.
Speaker 2:You're going to get mad at me later on, all right.
Speaker 1:Because you're going to watch the first three and be like okay, a Police Podcast. Put it right here and also in my Instagram. It's Internal Affairs Podcast. That's Internal Affairs Podcast. And you can look me up on LinkedIn, get a hold of me and you want to talk? Anything there is to know about discipline, ia responses and stuff like that. Get a hold of me. Marlon Maranci, m-a-r-l-o-n. Last name Maracci, m-a-r-r-a-c-h-e. Man, awesome.
Speaker 3:Cool, freaking awesome, having you on let's rapid fire.
Speaker 2:Three rapid fire questions, you ready.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Did you study? Did I study? Yeah, no, all right. Favorite drink of choice, favorite cop show or cop movie or line from a cop movie and your favorite?
Speaker 1:cop car Drink of choice. That's easy, old-fashioned, and it has to be Japanese whiskey bro, japanese whiskey Centauri or Hibiki. The latest has been Hibiki. We're old-fashioned fans.
Speaker 3:Now I'm intrigued because I've never had Japanese whiskey.
Speaker 1:I got you.
Speaker 3:You'll have to text that to me. I am a massive old-fashioned fan.
Speaker 1:That's the way to go, man.
Speaker 3:Sweet or a little drier on me Sweet bro A little more.
Speaker 1:I'll take it to a bar in my sports bar there where I've known the bartender for years, and when I walk in she just that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:Damn, that is talking about. That is what I'm talking about. Yeah old-fashioned.
Speaker 1:The second shows come on and a watch and a watch man. That movie is just bomb, bro, especially, let me tell you something, that scene in the beginning is probably a true depiction of what an a-car, two-man car and what they go through in terms of a pursuit. And let me tell you, those talks you have in a car, priceless.
Speaker 3:Spot on. I have two boys and I told both my boys they're not getting into police work. They have other ones in the Navy right now and the other one's about to graduate high school. But I grew up. My dad, my grandfather, everybody's been in police work. I said don't believe anything you see about police culture. But if you want to see the raw sense of humor, the personalities of cops, the brotherhood, that's not fake on tv and I we've sat and watched, and have watched a couple of times, the banter, the family, the wedding scenes in the car, the jacking around, it's the, it's the truest depiction, I I think, of two cops.
Speaker 1:I agree. What was the last question? Favorite cop car? Oh, crown Vic, bro, all the way Gotta go, crown Vic.
Speaker 3:And you had me in old-fashioned until you said Crown Vic, oh man.
Speaker 1:There you go, gotta do it, man. That's our era. It's the war wagon. It's the war wagon. It's the war.
Speaker 3:Yes, that thing is badass, when did you get in?
Speaker 1:98.
Speaker 3:Okay, so mine's the 95, 94 Caprice with the Corvette motor in it.
Speaker 1:Well, the Chevy? Yeah, I was there too. I had it with the spotlight Manual spotlight, yep, my FTO. Come on, marlon, start looking, yep.
Speaker 3:Yep, that car was a beast.
Speaker 1:Caprice. Well, crime bank man, crime banks can wait and roll. We're waiting, we can't beat it.
Speaker 3:We'll just stop it. Old-fashioned yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, this about wraps this up. You guys, take care, stay safe. Hit his podcast up Internal Podcast. We will have the links. We will have it displayed right here in this section, right here, and we will put all the information there in the bio. Clint, you got anything else?
Speaker 3:Dude, I can't thank you enough. This is awesome man and a fan of your show, and keep it up. I love what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Thank you. We're all family now and please, invitation to LA, let's do it Absolutely.
Speaker 2:You guys take care, stay safe. God bless you and, as always, may God bless Texas. Thank you.
