Exploring the Four Horsemen: Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, & Stonewalling

Have you ever found yourself recoiling at the tone of your own voice during an argument? We have, and we're not afraid to talk about it. On this episode we're peeling back the layers of the four horsemen—criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling—to reveal the transformative power of self-awareness and communication. Our experiences in couples counseling shed light on the importance of understanding and unpacking the complex dance of human interaction, where every step counts. We discuss strategies like active listening and the gentleness of approach—all aimed at fostering mutual understanding and preventing escalation. And let's not forget the role patience and recognizing the good in each other play in disarming the situation and steering clear of those eye-rolling moments of mockery we all regret.

But here's the thing: conflicts are as inevitable as they are uncomfortable. We share anecdotes that are sure to strike a chord, revealing our own encounters with these horsemen and the need to sometimes just take five. It's about self-soothing, engaging with problems rather than avoiding them, and embracing the ongoing journey of personal growth. Join us as we unpack these challenges and offer up the antidotes that have helped us along the way. Because let's face it, a little humor, a lot of honesty, and a commitment to self-improvement can make all the difference in the world of love and war.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:30

Hello and welcome to the Cameo Show. I'm your host, cameo, and today I am joined by my husband and co-host, greg Braun. Hey, greg.

Speaker 2 0:38

How's everybody doing out there in podcast world? Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1 0:43

Yeah, greg, you usually open us up with a dad joke. Do you have one for us today?

Speaker 2 0:48

I do. I do, so how is it that I always get the last word whenever we have an argument?

Speaker 1 0:54

I don't know and I'm not sure that's true.

Speaker 2 0:57

It's true, it's usually. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 1:01

Ah, yes, yes, Okay, I can go with that, and that's actually a great opener for today's topic, as we talk about conflict in relationships. So we're going to dive into the metaphor of the four horsemen, which are criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling, and how they often signify the end of a relationship. This is from researcher John Gottman of the Gottman Institute, as he uses the four horsemen of the apocalypse from the New Testament to translate into conflict in relationships. We were first presented with this idea when we were in couples counseling 11 or 12 years ago. Conflict is unavoidable, really, in relationships. It's just about how you manage it. And so when we were in couples counseling and we had all of this conflict and we weren't communicating well, my jaw almost dropped when our counselor, our therapist, jackie, handed us the sheet with these four principles, because basically, the entire way we were communicating at that point fell into one of those categories, would you agree? That was like a shocking moment of holy cow. This ain't looking good, right.

Speaker 2 2:16

The big thing was just like we were communicating in all these ways that were not correct, not not good, not not beneficial for the relationship it was. It was all wrong. Yeah, I mean, we just never really learned how to communicate properly. And that was the first time in our lives that we actually were like, given the sheet of paper, that's like, hey, here's the wrong answers for the test, you know like, let's like talk about the right way to do it, and that was like such a mind blowing experience because you're like, wow, you mean, I don't know how to communicate with my spouse.

Speaker 1 2:58

Right, we were definitely communicating in all of the unhealthy ways, which is what I would say that these four horsemen are. During this episode, we're going to dig into what each of them are on an individual level and give some examples as well as, at the end, wrap up with some antidotes, some ways to reframe the way that you're communicating and change your approach to conflict in your relationships, not just your marriage, not just your relationship with your children or your parents, but also at work. You know these things creep in. Conflict is in every relationship and it all always begins with awareness. Criticism is the first horseman and it is different than offering a critique or even voicing a complaint. It is an attack on your partner. The first two things that I mentioned are about an issue, but criticism is when you start to attack the core of your partner and, instead of voicing how you feel, start pointing the finger and blaming them for the conflict itself. And I would say that this is probably the one that is the first horseman, because it's probably the one that's most common.

Speaker 1 4:12

I think people do it. They don't even realize that they're doing it. I think that I do it and I don't realize that I'm doing it, and I do it to myself. Criticism is woven throughout almost everything that we do. Right, you're always in a quest to better yourself, looking for your downfalls. But there's a difference. There's a difference when people say constructive criticism and then criticism.

Speaker 1 4:33

That's attacking, and what we were doing, and what we often, sometimes still do, is attack the other person when we feel hurt, unheard, frustrated. So let me give you a couple of examples. Let's just say it's about running late. Complaining about that would be I was nervous when you didn't call me and you were running late. I was worried. When you didn't call me and you were running late, I was worried about you and I thought that we agreed that we would let each other know so that we were on the same page. Right, that's that doesn't make. That wouldn't make you feel attacked, right? That's something that I would just be expressing Like here's why I'm upset. It's still a complaint, it's still communicating, but it's a healthy way of expressing how I feel. Criticism would not sound like that Criticism would begin with, you didn't call me.

Speaker 1 5:23

You never think about how your behavior is affecting other people. You are very selfish and you don't think that you need to let anyone know what's going on. Totally different vibe, right, I mean. You don't think that you need to let anyone know what's going on. Totally different vibe, right? I mean you would immediately feel attacked, and what happens is, as soon as you feel attacked, then what do you want to do? What are you inclined to do?

Speaker 2 5:43

I'm loading up all my weapons, I'm preparing for battle, and here comes a barrage of criticisms at your character.

Speaker 1 5:52

That's right. Criticisms at your character that's right. And then it usually will not only spiral back and forth into an argument and a complete war on character, but then it will lead into some of the other horsemen that we're going to talk about. When somebody feels like they have to arm up and be ready for battle, it ain't good, like it's indicative that this conversation is going south. Everybody stopped listening, stopped thinking rational, stopped leading with actually what they feel, and led with attack.

Speaker 1 6:26

I tend to be critical, I'm very self-critical, I'm critical of others. I believe that that is something that started when I was very young. I was very critical of my performances, I was very critical of my grades. Like that's just my personality. I have to work really hard to be aware of it. I still even find myself being critical, like of our kids, and not meaning to right. But I remember sitting in Jackie's office and we would be talking about a situation and I would immediately go to being critical of you in a way that made you feel like you had to defend yourself, and Jackie would just straight up be like you're stop criticizing him. And I, I wasn't even aware of it, I didn't even realize that what I was doing was attacking your character. I thought that what I was doing was helpful. I thought that what I was doing was being effective and communicating where I was dissatisfied, and all that led to was confusion.

Speaker 2 7:25

There's just a difference of approach, and when we're working together to figure out a solution to the problem of being late, For example, we're late, we can't you know whatever example you want to use there for that. It's us against the problem. But hey, we're late because you're an asshole and you're always late and you're selfish and you never think about other people and you always make us late and it's just like. What do you want me to do with that information? I'm human, I have feelings, and you're blindsiding me with this criticism that maybe're late, Maybe I had to do something noble for somebody you know, take it, take somebody home that needed a ride or whatever and you don't know the full story.

Navigating Criticism and Conflict With Awareness

Speaker 2 8:24

It's kind of like when you're in this efficient get things done mode and you're not, you're not thinking about feelings or how the other person feels. You, just all you know is I've got these sticks with plates on them and I'm just like I got to keep them and nothing can fall down. You're going to naturally come across to your partner, whoever, even to yourself, as extra critical, because you don't have time for niceties. You're just hammering away at life, you know. And so it's almost like an awareness of how you approach yourself and others of like being a little bit more calm and compassionate, Just like this morning.

Speaker 2 8:59

I was asking you about what we're going to talk about on this podcast episode and I assumed you know what I meant with my question of, so what are we going to do today? And you're like, well, what do you mean? What we're going to do? You know we just bam. It became a conflict that was quickly diffused because we were aware and recognized it but, like in the past, that could have led to literally World War III nuclear bombs going off, because we would have just turned it into a full blown battle of criticism and gone very deep, and I'm guilty of that.

Speaker 1 9:35

I was thinking, while you were saying all of that, that sometimes I might say something or someone might say something and it isn't actually delivered in a way that is criticism, that it is delivered in a way that's soft and thoughtful and not judgmental and not meant to make you feel defensive and maybe to anyone in that moment it wouldn't.

Speaker 1 10:02

But that is received in that way, sometimes by you, by me, depending on where we are and in whatever moment we're in in that day, whatever level of tension we're experiencing.

Speaker 1 10:15

You know, and I feel like that's been something that has been a big one for us is that I do tend to lean toward the criticism side of things.

Speaker 1 10:24

But even when I'm not being critical, even when I am really aware and trying to present things in a way that doesn't feel that way, it is sometimes still received by you as criticism and kind of like I was saying about myself that I think that started early on for me being critical, self-critical, critical of others, and I'm a very vocal person, so vocalizing sometimes that criticism. I think for you, if I may, that that feeling of being criticized a lot started for you at a young age and that has been kind of a little bit of your internal voice and the way that you interpret the way that people are saying things to you, even if it isn't being delivered that way, and so that awareness of this concept of criticism and what it means to both parties in the communication, both parties in the conflict, is really important. It's really important to understand both perspectives and also be very honest with yourself about what role you're playing in this conflict as it pertains to criticism giving it or receiving it.

Speaker 2 11:34

Yeah to criticism, giving it or receiving it, yeah. And I would say, just as a FYI to anyone listening and kind of my own mode of operation if you're looking for ways to get through life and your days with more ease and more friendly communication, just assume everyone you deal with is a 12-year-old wrapped up in a 40-year-old's body. But emotionally we're children. We still are still dealing with issues from our childhood. We're still, you know, and we have a lot of pressure from our bosses. You know we have to make money, we have to provide, we have to nurture, we have to take kids all over the place.

Speaker 2 12:20

We're running hot, we're running thin, we're running on fumes and just assume everyone's kind of in that zone and they can't really handle your snarky criticism or your extra barbed comments that it might just set them over the edge. And you see it all the time on the news. And then you know people just snap at a gas station over something, just simple, you know, and it leads to them going to jail for assault or what. You know what I mean? It's just like because everyone's just running so hot. So if you just kind of assume that, hey, everyone's really gone through shit and just be a little bit more gentle in your approach and and think before you say like hey, this might not land the way I think it will. It can go a long way.

Speaker 1 13:14

Yeah, I agree with that, I also. I'm going to go the other direction a second because, as an exhausted mom who feels like she has to repeat herself 300 times every time she says something, no matter who it's to, to feel heard, and I feel like that's pretty common. I mean I'm not like saying that our kids or you or any our customers or anyone like disrespects me intentionally or like isn't paying attention. I'm just saying that's a pretty common feeling as a mom, like there's memes everywhere. Mom finally loses her shit after she asked the same question 500 times and no one was paying attention. Now everyone's paying attention and she's the asshole Right.

Speaker 1 13:56

So I say that because, with regard to being more gentle, I think that that puts a lot of responsibility on the person who's delivering the feedback or who is expressing their discontent in a situation, and then the conflict always comes on that person. If, whatever they're saying and however they're delivering, it isn't being received by the other party, it gets a little bit more intense each time. You have to say it each time and then that gentle approach kind of slides into more of a frustrated attack or a more critical statement. That wasn't how it started initially, but it slid there because it's been on repeat and the frustration just continues to build, and so whatever even the conflict was may not even be the problem at that point.

Speaker 1 14:48

The conflict might be, like, secondary to the fired up emotion that this exhausted mom feels because no one's listening to what I'm saying and now I'm the jerk because I'm losing my shit. But I have to get your attention somehow, and so I agree a more gentle approach. But I think that there's also a responsibility of the other person in the conflict to really be aware and listen. Listen to the person who is coming to them with feedback, with a complaint, right, so that it doesn't turn into criticism. Do you? Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 15:26

Yeah, but I don't, I but I don't agree.

Recognizing and Addressing Contempt in Relationships

Speaker 2 15:29

I mean, I have to approach my relationship with you and my kids and my work and my art, whatever it is, with extreme ownership, and I can't expect that I'm going to deal with people today that are going to be equipped to handle the bad news I've got to deliver, or that you're going to be in a great state of mind when I come to bring this to this to you, you know? Or just just again, starting with your relationship with yourself, like you got to be very gentle with yourself and you can't be so overly critical with yourself or you're just going to spiral, and I think that's it's just an awareness that you have to have the ownership of this part of it, of this part of it, of the communication of it, that you cannot be criticizing and critical even of yourself.

Speaker 1 16:20

Yeah, I think one of the things that's been helpful for us and still to this day actually, I think we're way better at it now than we ever have been is literally just saying like that makes me feel attacked. You're attacking me and then letting everything sit for a minute, like like our conflict this morning about what are we going to do today, and I'm like what do you mean? And you're like what are we going to talk about? Like I felt attacked because I felt like why are you scoffing at me when I'm asking you what you mean? Because you weren't clear about what you were saying and what happened wasn't like you always blah, blah, blah. I was just kind of like I don't understand. I'm asking you to clarify what you meant, because that could mean a couple of different things. And we weren't really talking about podcast. So just kind of staying calm, weren't really talking about podcast, so just kind of staying calm, being gentle and talking about it.

Speaker 1 17:20

Scoffing is actually part of the second four horsemen contempt. I'm guilty of this one too. I'm guilty of all of these. We all are, I think. But Ooh, contempt.

Speaker 1 17:34

Contempt is being disrespectful, mocking people, being sarcastic, scoffing, calling names, name calling that's a big one for you. Mimicking body language, you know, being judgmental and eye rolling is probably my number one way of showing contempt. I roll my eyes and I don't even know that it's happening. But the target of contempt is to make the other person feel despised or worthless, or what they're saying doesn't matter. And so when you're in a conflict and someone's expressing to you even if they didn't come to you with criticism, but they came to you with just a gentle complaint I'm tired, you know, I feel run down from all of the things that we've had to handle for the last couple of weeks and I'm kind of running on E and I need a little space.

Speaker 1 18:26

Contempt might sound like this Cry me a river. You think you're the only one that feels that way. I've been with the kids all day running around like mad to keep all the plates in the air. So could you be any more pathetic? Cry me a river. And I'm guilty of feeling that way and saying those things, and you are too.

Speaker 1 18:52

And I think that this was another big one, because when we were sitting in therapy and it was being presented to us as like something that had a label, so when you feel attacked, you name, call you attack back with name calling. You're very contemptuous, Quite honestly, that's probably your major one, and Jackie would be like you can't do that. Like that, you feel attacked and you feel like you need to retaliate, but that's not making it any better. That's just feeding into this conflict and giving it. It's like a cancer cell, like giving it power to spread into something that it isn't. Sometimes I will straight up say to you like, oh, how contemptuous of you, Cause I like to use big words and make myself seem like I'm, you know, super smart, but the truth is is that once you know what it is, it's really easy to recognize when it's popping up into your conflict.

Navigating Conflict in Relationships

Speaker 2 19:43

Before having therapy, it was literally just an unawareness and it was me versus you, and it was like you're the crazy one, I'm normal Because I'm me and I only know me, and I'm normal, right, that's how we all think, right, that's how we all think. We all think we're the ones that are normal and everyone else is crazy. But, like with therapy, it was like wait a second, this is what this is called and this is what you're doing. And unless you're like, totally, totally, just unavailable to have any self-reflection and awareness of your own wrongdoings and your own mistakes and your own flaws, it's easy to just not be open to the idea that maybe, maybe, I'm the problem here. So so, yes, I definitely. When I feel attacked, watch out. I mean, I've got a mouth, you know.

Speaker 1 20:46

And it's like and I'm not trying to be nice, I'm trying to, you know and you definitely are not, and I just know at this point that that's how you're reacting to whatever you're feeling, that when you say those things, you're trying to be mean and you're trying to hurt my feelings. That doesn't make it right. I'm just stating the case that, like it's almost like a conscious thing that you know like this is how I'm going to come at you then, and it comes from a place of superiority, is the truth. It comes from a place of like these long, simmering thoughts that you bury when you're pissed off about something or when I've done something that triggers you, and you bury it, cause maybe it's not like a real issue yet, but it's living in there. And as soon as I'm like critical of you about something, you come at me with contempt and you start slinging some some names.

Speaker 1 21:39

Right, this isn't about like exposing ourselves and airing our dirty laundry. It's about being human. So I say all of that because I'm not trying to glorify conflict or arguing or like make a joke of this, but what we're doing is saying, like conflict again is everywhere, even in the most successful relationships, and even the people who have been to therapy and who are aware of this still struggle with these things on a regular basis. It's really about just practicing and each time trying to get better at it.

Speaker 2 22:09

So that's beautiful. And here's the deal. It's not like we act like we don't have problems, right. That's the whole point of this. And to anyone out there listening if you're listening and you're stuck and you're like gosh, my relationship's not the way I know it could be, then listen, because this is the deal.

Speaker 2 22:33

We've come a long way in ours personally and we've done a lot of work and reading and therapy and a lot of intentional, focused, you know, work here and I would say that we do have a successful relationship. We have a family and a business and you know, we've been through some ups and downs of life, right, but the thing is we still have problems, we still have arguments, we still have conflict, like yesterday was an intense day of a lot of nonsense and a lot of times it has nothing to do with us. It's something with other people that we rely on that don't do what they're supposed to do, or someone be acting bad, but that always feeds into our bubble and our marriage. And then, all of a sudden, at the end of the day, we're worn thin and it becomes a battle about not putting the laundry away, you know, or it shows up in the I didn't wipe down the sink properly after doing the dishes. Whoa Critical right.

Speaker 1 23:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:37

Here's the deal. You just get better at recognizing it and then communicating it and being like, wait a minute, I'm being this way because that's again more attacks. But you have to own your side of the street during this relationship that you have with yourself and others of like, I'm being an asshole right now I'm being edgy because I'm pissed off about this other thing and I'm taking it out on you, but being humble and aware enough that it's you, that you're the one that's causing this. Throughout our relationship there's always some burning thing of why there's being there's so much criticalness involved. It's because of other things, but it just shows up as a critical, snarky comment to your spouse or the way you talk to yourself because of something deeper that's going on. So just being able to diffuse it by being aware and recognize it that like, wait a minute, I'm coming on hot here because of X and we can talk about that, we can work together about X. I can't just verbally attack you and expect that you're going to see things my way. It just never ends well.

Speaker 1 25:01

Yeah, it feels good in the moment, right, If I come to you and criticize the way that you've wiped down the sink in your area of the home doing dishes, with that being your thing. If I come to you and still criticize what you've done and you come back at me like, why do I even do this? You're such a bitch, you know. Like, whatever you say, whatever you say, that's contemptuous. Or you roll your eyes or you start making passive, aggressive comments, right? Or you mock me. Those are all ways of showing contempt.

Speaker 1 25:33

It feels good to do that because you feel hurt. So it feels good to respond in that way or to more, more. So, react in that way it doesn't feel good. It's not as fulfilling to be like hey, I understand that maybe you're stressed out and I didn't do it exactly the way that you want and that's coming across as critical to me and it hurts my feelings, Like that doesn't that's the right way to handle it. Probably quote, unquote right way to handle it. But that doesn't feel awesome. Feeling awesome is like why do you have to be such a bitch about that? That feels better.

Speaker 2 26:09

You know, I would never say what you just said. I would never do, I would never say what you just said, so calmly.

Speaker 1 26:17

I know, right, like that's, that's the textbook way to approach this, that is the way that, like, a therapist will present it. And it's like you meet that with contempt and roll your eyes and go, yeah right, that ain't never going to happen. But to your point, it doesn't ever happen that way necessarily. But you get better at it, you get faster.

Speaker 2 26:38

I get better at it. This is the work that you talk about doing. Every day, I get better at recognizing that I'm doing the dishes. It's the end of the day. We've had a long, stressful day and you say something about me not doing wiping it down. Right, I get better and look at you and go here's my thought. I go, she's had a rough day today. I'm just going to wipe down the sink. I love you. Yeah, you don't move on.

Speaker 1 27:02

You don't feel the need to say anything most of the time, unless I don't know if I'm running thin and I'm.

Speaker 2 27:10

It's fucking sorry.

Speaker 1 27:12

No go. We're adults, we're allowed to say cuss words.

Speaker 2 27:15

And if you're here and that's offensive, then I'm sorry. But, but, but seriously, I'm running thin and I'm running hot and I've been disrespected all day and I don't feel good about myself and I've got these other deep things that I've got going on. You're going to get attacked back and then we just and that that was the world we lived in 10 years ago.

Speaker 1 27:35

That was 24 seven.

Speaker 2 27:37

That was all the time and there was no reprieve. It was a freaking battlefield and to a point where no one wanted to be around us honestly, and then also we were drinking, we would drink and then it would just all come out. So it's just the recipe for just a complete disaster scenario.

Speaker 1 27:56

So, according to the Gottman Institute, contempt is the single greatest predictor of divorce. So of these four horsemen, contempt is the single greatest predictor of divorce. The third horseman, which we've touched on already, is defensiveness. Defensiveness is typically a response to criticism and defensiveness is kind of like reverse blaming right, Like you feel criticized, so then you get defensive and essentially what you're being defensive about is kind of putting the blame back on the person who was criticizing you in the first place. It's kind of the opposite of extreme ownership that you referenced a little while ago. So here's a good example. We work together, we do business together. So maybe it sounds like this in our current day Did you call so-and-so back? It's the end of the day. Did you call so-and-so back? It's the end of the day, Did you? Did you call so-and-so back? Today, A defensive response sounds like this I was too busy.

Speaker 1 29:01

You knew they needed to be called. Why didn't you just call them yourself? Now I will proudly say that that doesn't happen very often. That specific scenario around here because there's a level of respect and, again, practice that we've put the work in and recognize these moments of distress around, something like that but taking ownership of the situation sounds like this instead oh man, I forgot you know what. I had a really busy day. I know you did too. Let me just call him right now. Thankfully, that's what it sounds like more often around here these days. It's more of a like understanding your perspective, a team environment, not in it like necessarily an admission of fault, but kind of like oh yeah, I did forget, Not a oh, I was too busy, why didn't you do it? But like oh man, I did, I forgot, I got too busy. How can I make it better?

Speaker 1 29:53

Kind of a solutions focused approach instead of a defensive approach. Because when you get stressed out and you feel attacked, it's perfectly normal and understandable to defend yourself and like again, feel good about how that feels, to defend yourself or to point the blame in the other direction. But it has the opposite effect of what you really want to happen, because the person who's on the other side of this conflict doesn't back down or apologize and be like oh yeah, did you call them today? No, I didn't. Why didn't you? Oh, you know what? I'm sorry, I should have done that. I should have recognized that you were too busy and I should have gone ahead and taken, taken that off your plate is not likely ever the response that you're going to get from the person who's on the other end of that conflict. If you've been defensive with them, so it feels good to like pop off and say that and be defensive about it because you're already under stress. But it's not a healthy conflict resolution to be defensive. It just spirals into something more.

Speaker 1 30:56

I feel like this is something that like kids do. To your point earlier about like treat everyone like they're 12. When people feel backed into a corner, they don't know what to do. Maybe they just aren't sure how to respond to the way that they're feeling, or maybe they don't know the answer, or maybe they do feel guilty, but they don't know how to handle that and they immediately go into defensive mode, even if they aren't being attacked. Yeah, Sometimes I feel like that's the case. Like again, because I come across as critical when I'm not meaning to and that's on me, like that's my approach and I should be more aware of that and more soft and gentle. But like sometimes I feel like if I come at you with something and because your tendency is to feel criticized, you come at me with defensiveness. That is like whoa, I wasn't accusing you of anything. You don't have to be defensive about this. I was just asking a question.

Navigating Communication and Conflict Resolution

Speaker 2 31:47

It's natural that some people are going to be more critical and some people are going to be more of a victim or defensiveness in their approach to life, because it's just of their personality and who they are. All these things have to be worked on and there needs to be awareness around all of them If there's going to be progress as a whole, as a marriage, as your relationship with yourself. You know doing all these things are also relevant to yourself of how you deal with life, myself and others of like. Do I come off as a victim or do I come off critical? Am I contemptuous? Like these things are how you look at the world around you and like you can look at people like gosh. Why are you always such a victim? Or why are you always so critical of everything? It's like just an awareness of like there's work to do here. It's not the world. The world is what it is. It's the. The monopoly board has been laid out. These are the rules of the game. Here's the instruction manual go and some people are just like I don't. This is how I see things and it's through my lens, and that's just normal.

Speaker 2 32:53

We're all conditioned through our life's journey to see things the way that we see them. You know that's, that's part of the human experience. But like this is where the work can be done to make your the rest of your days on earth more enjoyable, more rewarding, more, more impactful is like understanding. Where am I deficient? Am I overly critical all the time? And is that turning people off? Am I overly passive, aggressive? Am I overly, you know, defensive when I shouldn't be? And it's once you start building an awareness muscle and, like gosh, I really messed that up there that interaction with that person because I was too critical, or you know, every day is like there's a lesson to be learned, even in just our interactions, or even in the interactions I have with other people. It's like gosh, you it's easy to see, in everybody else it's easy.

Speaker 2 33:53

It's really hard to see introspectively of yourself of, like boy, I'm, I'm super selfish in that area, you know, and it's like, but it's really enjoyable to come across these deficiencies and then be like all right, this is where I need to really sit with that and really think that through and like, why do I feel this way? And and then you can show up to your relationships with other people as a more whole person, as a more refined person, because you've you've actually done some work.

Speaker 1 34:25

Yeah, I think with like defensiveness specifically, the opportunity is, in the moment of like feeling criticized, having the self-awareness and the self-control to not react to it.

Speaker 2 34:35

Yes.

Speaker 1 34:36

Defensiveness is a reaction and so if you can have an understanding of your own emotions, to not feel the need to retaliate all of these, but defensiveness specifically to really just allow whatever to be said or whatever to be presented and give it some space to breathe and come back to it, defensiveness kind of eliminates itself. If you don't feel the need to react and respond immediately, you can take some room, let it settle down and come back to it and be like hey earlier when you said that it kind of made me feel like I was being attacked.

Speaker 1 35:13

but here's what I think about that. And then it's not defensiveness, then it's not. You're wrong, I'm right. I have to defend myself because you're making me feel squirmy. I mean, we've all seen like the lady in the grocery store, we'll call her Karen. Sorry to all the real Karens out there, but Karen has become a thing because she's like, literally defensive. That's just to your point, greg. That's just the lens that you see the world through your scoffing and your defensiveness and your victimization. And until you learn that about yourself, that it isn't really about anyone else, that these are the ways that you handle conflict yourself and that conflict is going to be a part of your life forever, that, hey, I get defensive Every time somebody tells me something that goes against what I think. Maybe the work lies right there with. Maybe I need to just listen to what people have to say, let it sit for a minute and then come back with an actual, well-thought-out, non-emotional response instead of flailing.

Speaker 2 36:18

It's hard, though, because we're humans and we're emotional, and we make a lot of our decisions based on our emotions, not on logic, not on facts, not on data, but raw feeling and emotions, and that's okay. But just being aware of that, and a great example of this defensiveness was this morning, when I said what are we going to talk about? And you snark back.

Speaker 1 36:42

I didn't snark back. I asked for clarification.

Speaker 2 36:46

Well, I took it. I perceived it as snapping back, and you scoffed, and then, but I didn't go further, I didn't continue on my attack.

Speaker 1 36:57

Yeah, you didn't.

Speaker 2 36:58

I looked at you, like, and recognize, like okay, this is like a battlefield and I don't wish to be emotionally engaged in it and I don't wish to be emotionally engaged in it.

Speaker 1 37:10

So I literally stood there like a deer in the headlights looking at you and you looking at me, and it was like a moment, right, which quite honestly, kind of pissed me off even more because you were looking at me like what I was saying was a different language, instead of acknowledging that what I was saying was valid. But I didn't, so I'll give myself this. I didn't attack, so I'll give myself this I didn't attack you.

Speaker 2 37:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1 37:32

And I didn't become like intensely bully critical of you. I just said what I needed to say in a very soft and gentle way, especially for me, While you stared at me like I was In the past.

Speaker 2 37:47

In the past, you would have kept going and I would have kept going and it would have been a huge thing and things might have gotten thrown and this call might not be happening right now.

Speaker 1 38:00

Things would not have gotten thrown. Things don't get thrown around here anymore, but 12 years ago, when we were having these four horsemen as the predominant way that we handled conflict in our house, things got thrown.

Speaker 2 38:13

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's just like it starts with awareness it's not perfect, it's not perfect, it never is going to be perfect and that's not the expectation. It's just knowing that, like when things pop up, I've got some tools in my toolbox here to know, like, and in that moment I'm staring at you and I'm thinking, I'm processing what has happened, I'm replaying it going okay, what I said, she said, I said, and then I have this realization and this is hard, especially for men is realizing like, maybe I'm wrong.

Speaker 1 38:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2 38:51

So that's humility, that doesn't exist. You know, it's not macho and it's not fun and it's not. But like, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm, maybe I did see it wrong, maybe I did hear it wrong.

Speaker 1 39:02

That kind of leads into the fourth horseman, which is stonewalling, because in the past that is something that I feel like happens because I'm more.

Speaker 1 39:14

I'm the more aggressive person in our marriage, I'm more vocal, I would say I I am. I tend to be more sharp and more critical and more direct. And so, for example, this morning, when you stared at me like a deer in the headlights, what was happening was that you were kind of processing what was happening, like you just said. But in the past what has happened is you just look at me like I'm absolutely fucking nuts, completely withdraw from the conversation. It leaves on that like really tense, like that tense, unresolved feeling carries through the rest of the day or for longer, and you completely, just shut down. So there's like a difference between what happened today and what the fourth horseman stonewalling is, but they appear to be the same thing. It looked like you were just shutting down like okay, I withdraw, I'm not interacting here. It could be interpreted that that was a negative thing. It could be interpreted that that was your way of being, like I'm not engaging here, cause I'm not.

Speaker 1 40:27

I'm not going into this conversation or this confrontation because I am overwhelmed and I don't care anymore.

Speaker 2 40:37

I was pausing and taking a second to reflect and replay and in the past, before we did really any work, that moment of pause would have been a moment where you kept going.

Speaker 1 40:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:52

And you're like I'm going to bulldoze you with facts and data and I'm a complete litigator and I'm going to just knock your socks off with all the reasons I'm right and you're wrong, and it would just be a complete steamroller.

Speaker 1 41:08

I don't feel like I stonewall very often because I'm the aggressor. The stonewalling definitely was coming from your side of things and that's not meant to be in a critical way. It's just meant like you would physiologically be flooded with all of my shit being thrown at you and you're like I don't know how to do this I'm out of here.

Speaker 1 41:25

I can't handle this. A healthy response to that kind of like what we were talking about with defensiveness is like, instead of detaching and distracting yourself and like completely just moving on like I don't give a shit anymore, is saying I need some time to think about what you've just said. I don't want to argue with you, so can we come back to this?

Speaker 2 41:49

Yeah, that's going to go well.

Speaker 1 41:50

Because in the heat of conflict that always feels good to say. So back to that like what feels good right now, the contemptuousness of name calling and scoffing and eye rolling is the reaction, but the actual, real answer is to resolve conflict, and that way you have to have some self-control.

Speaker 2 42:11

Conflict is all around us, we're always going to have conflict and that way you have to have some self-control. Conflict is all around us. We're always going to have conflict. We're always going to have misunderstandings and disagreements and confusion. You're just, you're dealing with a lot of things when you're an adult and you have a lot of things on your plate. But knowing how to respond react. But knowing how to respond, react and communicate your thoughts and feelings and then how to deal with people that aren't like quit expecting people are going to be great communicators, going to tell you how they feel, they're going to tell you what they want and need. Like expect that it's just not going to be that way. And then it's just like learning jujitsu and kickboxing Quit expecting that. You're just never going to have conflict like that. Just learn these things. That way, if something happens, you have the tools available in your toolbox to deal with them.

Speaker 1 43:04

Yeah, knowing is like half the battle. It's not enough. Knowing that these four horsemen exist and that they are a part of conflict that will always be a part of your life is not enough. Knowing that these four horsemen exist and that they are a part of conflict that will always be a part of your life is not enough. It's having the tools, the healthy ways to handle conflict in your arsenal to be productive in counteracting negativity, right? So let's get into that a little bit more. Let's talk about antidotes specifically.

Antidotes to Contempt in Relationships

Speaker 1 43:28

So if we go back to criticism, which is basically verbally attacking your personality or your character or what you've been doing, like something that you've done, that usually starts with you, me saying to you you did this, you're dumb, you this, that or the other, you did it wrong. The antidote to that is more gentle and it starts with I. It's an I statement and it's it sounds like expressing what I need and how I feel in a way that doesn't make you feel criticized. So, instead of you didn't wipe the sink down properly, according to what my proper is, it starts with I understand that we see things differently. It's really important to me that the sink gets wiped down with bleach because X, y, z, and then, instead of you immediately feeling like fuck you, you feel like, oh, I understand why it's important to you. It diffuses the conflict immediately out of the gate, because it never becomes an actual conflict If I present myself in a way that is conducive to you understanding me instead of feeling attacked.

Speaker 1 44:43

We talked about that a little bit, but that is definitely the absolute antidote to that is use I statements. The absolute antidote to that is use I statements. Find a way to, instead of attacking you, you, you to turn it about, I think I feel, and present it in that way.

Speaker 2 45:00

Yeah, it just lands totally different. I'm open to hearing it If you're like hey, I love it when you wipe down the sink with, with the with, and spray it with bleach and, and it just makes it feel so complete and clean and I just love that. When you do that, that just lands so much differently than you are such a dumb ass and you never do it right and I'm tired of telling you. You know, it's just like.

Speaker 1 45:22

I know. But I mean I'm just being honest here, like I'm not going to walk up to you when I see that maybe you didn't do that and be like, hey, I love it when you wipe down the sink with bleach, when you just didn't wipe down the sink with bleach, Right, so that would be fine. That's like a positive reinforcement method when there isn't conflict, didn't? And you're like done, you think you're done. Instead of coming to you and being like you think you're done, but you did a shit job, I should come to you like this I really appreciate that you take care of the dishes, but it's really important to me that you use bleach, and so I would. I feel like maybe sometimes that's a step that you forget, so I just wanted to gently remind you. Isn't that such a textbook way to do that? It sounds beautiful. That is the goal. It ain't going to happen that way every time.

Speaker 2 46:20

Progress, not perfection.

Speaker 1 46:31

Progress, not perfection.

Speaker 1 46:32

That's right. So when we talk about contempt and the antidote to contempt, so again, just briefly, contempt is attaching a sense of self with intent to abuse or insult. So I'm superior and you're dumb, kind of thing Like roll my eyes, you're an idiot. Appreciation is the antidote. So, okay, we can use the dishes again, cause it's just easy and fun. I roll my eyes and say you're dumb. I criticize you and I'm contemptuous. You're dumb. I roll my eyes, I'm more superior than you are because I do it right and you do it wrong.

Speaker 1 47:02

I could come to you, like I just like I just said, as the textbook approach, and say hey, I really appreciate that you take such good care of making sure the dishes are always done, since we've delegated roles and responsibilities in our house in that way, and find gratitude for your positivity positively. Reinforce you when you, when I see that you are doing the right thing like we talk about that with our kids right, you catch them doing something right, reinforce that by telling them great job and instead of always attacking what they aren't doing so great or what they're missing, you reinforce this feeling of like oh, I'm doing it right, I feel good about that. Now I want to do more. It's like a dopamine rush to feel a compliment. Well, appreciation is the antidote to contempt.

Speaker 1 47:48

By appreciating what you've done and pointing out all of your good qualities instead of rolling my eyes, feeling superior and telling you how dumb you are because you never do it right. Progress, not perfection. It goes back to again there's so many things that go into this Like there are days when I do it that way and it feels good and I feel good about handling it that way, and then there are days when I have had it and I'm over it and I have said it 300 times and I'm tired and I don't have anything left to give and I lose my shit and I am contemptuous. So it's just knowing, having the tools and working toward doing it better every single day, and also being forgiving of yourself and others that you aren't going to be perfect.

Speaker 2 48:30

Also knowing what you're working with.

Speaker 1 48:33

What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 48:34

Knowing that I have a very type A wife and knowing that I'm very type B, knowing that I'm very type B yes, elaborate Type A spouse is always very aware of what type B spouse is doing of the tour do. Type B spouse doesn't care about how you fold the laundry, or that you use the extra bleach, or that you use the extra detergent, or that you bring my laundry to me and it's folded precisely and there's no wrinkles. Uh, type b personality is like oh cool, there's laundry here, let me shove it in my drawers. I'm just saying like, perspective is everything too, and like that's an area for for my growth and your growth, of like being okay with certain things that aren't like. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 49:31

Yes, I do understand what you're saying, knowing what you're working with, knowing that my wife tends to be type A and leans toward critical, to be type A and leans toward critical. So when we've discussed things about how the dishes and the sink needs to be wiped down, I'm going to lock that in to avoid conflict, because we've discussed why it's important, we've agreed why it's important and then the responsibility comes in that, like I'm going to hold up my end of the bargain even though I'm type B, I'm going to work on that. Is that what you mean?

Speaker 2 50:07

Or did I just twist that in a way that yes and statement yes, and I don't like how? I always had problems at Chase where, like, people would send me bank statements and W2s and tax returns and I would get dinged if the bottom corner of the pay stub was cut off and it cut off the URL. I just I never. Those details just didn't line up for me in my creative, abstract, type B mind. So, like what I'm saying is I'm aware that my wife loves it when I wipe down the sink with bleach after I've done all the dishes. You watch me do it. I wipe it all down and I'll miss like one little particle and then you'll be like I'm like an Eagle.

Speaker 2 50:57

I can, I can see it. It's right there and I'm like, oh and, and you're like you gotta do, you gotta do a good job, you know, and it's right there and I'm like, oh and, and you're like you gotta do, you gotta do a good job, you know, and it's like it's the same. I'm the same person that that you know that I was as a child that didn't get good grades, cause I'm just not detailed, I'm not type a, I'm not what we want, but there's, you know what I mean. There's just like knowing what you're working with is also part of this, and knowing, like, what battles are worth fighting and what yes, I understand.

Speaker 1 51:29

Oh, that brings us to our next point of being defensive, because honestly, that feels like a little bit of a defensive response. The antidote to being defensive is to take responsibility. So I hear you. I hear you saying that this is knowing what you're working with. This is my personality.

Speaker 1 51:46

Um, we have tried all different ways of resolving the conflict of the dishes, even delegating, you know, dishes and laundry and in our household, and it does work for the most part. But when I find that one particle, if I bring it to you, even in a gentle way, even in the most textbook way, if you're, if your response is that's my personality, that's not taking responsibility for like hey, I'm going to do a better job of really paying attention because this is important. I don't know why it's such an important thing for me. I just think it's really gross when there's like food in the sink, like the job is complete, when the food is gone and when the bleach has been wiped all over everything so that there's no germs and bacteria.

Speaker 1 52:30

That is a thing for me. I've expressed it in the nicest way. We've come up with creative ways to avoid conflict and I just feel like, because of that, I have the right to kind of be a little bit more like hey, there's still food in the sink, some days I'm nice about it, some days I'm not, and that you would take responsibility to like really pay attention to that, because of how much I've expressed that, it's extremely important to me, even if it's not important to you. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 53:01

Moving on.

Speaker 1 53:04

The truth is, it's not really that big of a deal. It's not that big of a conflict in our house.

Speaker 2 53:12

It just depends again on the day and the situation. But yeah, I'm just being silly when I say this, but like, what is my response Normally if you are so gracious and to offer your feedback on the job I've done and say, hey, you missed a spot, what's? What's my response to that 95% of the time?

Speaker 1 53:31

Oh, let me get that. And you act like a goofy guy, cleaning the sink out and you spray it, and you wipe it, and you rinse it and it's done.

Speaker 2 53:40

You, just I'm trying.

Speaker 1 53:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2 53:42

I was trying when I worked at Chase, when I was, to get all these loans in the door, submit them, but I'm also responsible for gathering all the documentation from the client and they send me stuff that's all over the place and there's people waiting for me in the lobby.

Speaker 2 53:59

And I didn't make the sales trips a lot of times because my scores on the detailed stuff like that weren't very good. It didn't matter what my production was. Same with this. Like it doesn't matter, like I'm doing it, I'm wiping, I'm doing it and I miss a spot and it's like it's not, like I'm not trying no, it's not like you're not trying, I think it's just a matter of, like, extreme ownership in that situation with Chase, with wiping out the sink.

Speaker 1 54:24

Extreme ownership for me is like really isolating your part in the situation and saying that, like God, I'm trying, I don't even see it, I'm not doing it on purpose, like making it a completely zeroed out thing that you put a lot of conscious effort behind.

Speaker 2 54:42

I'm not anal retentive in that regard, I'm not a clean freak in that regard, and that is why, when it comes to business things, you're the details and I'm the big picture. Well, and that goes back to you what you said about knowing what you're working with.

Speaker 1 54:58

Like we have delegated jobs in our business, in our marriage, in our parenting, based on our skill sets and where we are most successful in our skill sets. I'm just saying, as it pertains to conflict, there's going to be little things and these are trivial things. These are things like the dishes and wiping on the sink. That's trivial, but it's just an easy thing to talk about. But, like, there are going to be little agitations that like, just because you aren't like me. We've had a conversation about what it should look like. You're trying, but try, try harder.

Speaker 2 55:35

Like, try harder yes, try harder do better next time.

Speaker 1 55:39

Take responsibility, and that's what all this is about.

Speaker 2 55:41

Is is knowing, knowing, being aware.

Speaker 1 55:45

What's that?

Speaker 2 55:46

Everyone can relate to that that there's things in the relationship. I like to keep my truck clean. I like to keep the vehicle clean that we ride around in. Somebody likes to leave stuff right.

Speaker 1 55:59

That sounds awfully critical. Right, I'd like to have a moment to think about what you just said before I respond. I have a tendency to leave trash in the door.

Speaker 2 56:09

I'm here with complete, supreme cleanliness and I'm just this pigpen dirtball. It's not the case, it's. Certain things are like.

Speaker 1 56:22

Yes, it's what I've decided. You're like being certain?

Speaker 2 56:24

things worthy of being a mess about, and some things are like must be pristine, you know that's correct, well, I next week's episode, we'll take a tour of your closet hey, you can leave my closet out of this listen.

Speaker 1 56:41

I appreciate that you feel that way about the car.

Speaker 1 56:46

I can see why you would feel that you know yeah, I'm trying to use these antidotes to like but it's, it's hard. It's hard because the reality is nobody talks like that. Let's get real. Like, if you tell me, hey, it's important to me that you take the stuff out of the car door and stop leaving your trash in there, I'm going to either do it or not. And if I don't and it bothers you, you're going to be like hey, I keep asking you and I'm going to either be like defensive about it or not, or I'm going to be like I'm not going to be like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, I have totally that's not reality.

Managing Conflict in Relationships

Speaker 1 57:20

Like I don't know anyone that talks like that. Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people, oh I don't know. But like the reality is that usually it doesn't go that way and one day I just decide like I'm going to be more aware of the stuff in the car door it's a great stop arguing about something stupid, and then that's it.

Speaker 2 57:40

It's a a great example. And it's no different than the sink, it's just flip-flopped. It's your dirty sink. And it's way more fun for me to just do some passive, aggressive, snarky remarks as I grab the trash out of the door and I roll and act and stonewall you.

Speaker 1 57:58

So wait, let's wrap up this episode. Forget everything we just said. It's way more fun to use the four horsemen as a way to combat conflict it may not be a good thing for your marriage or for your relationships. In fact, it may be the absolute demise but if you want to have fun, but if you want to have fun and you want to be right and you're good about it, do it that way and then don't talk the whole trip because you're stonewalling.

Speaker 1 58:25

That's correct, and the antidote to stonewalling is what we already talked about is taking a break. Spend some time doing something that you find soothing, because a lot of times you stonewall because you are just fucking maxed out. You are psychologically, physiologically exhausted and you can't handle anymore, and so you withdraw and you become cold. But if you take some time to soothe yourself and you take some time to nurture yourself from the inside, you can come back to that situation and address it with some clarity and with some calmness, without just avoiding it and distracting yourself.

Speaker 2 59:01

So yeahoring your problems is definitely not the right way to handle them, no matter what it is.

Speaker 1 59:07

Yeah, they don't go away. I mentioned last night on our walk that like I need a week by myself. I need to just go away for a week where no one can get to me, and and you were all for that, you were super supportive, like absolutely go, do that. Go away for a weekend. In fact, that's what you said. I need you during the week, but take a weekend, like go, and I said, but all of the things will just still be here when I get back. I'll take some time to soothe myself and feel good and maybe have some clarity about how to approach them, but they'll all still be there, point being that they don't.

Speaker 1 59:39

Your problems just don't disappear. You have to address them, but you get to choose the way that you approach them. And I think that's the whole point of this entire episode is that conflict is never going away. It's not the appearance of conflict, it's how you manage it that predicts whether you're successful or you fail in your relationship. So if you can manage it, you fail in your relationship.

Speaker 1 1:00:06

So if you can manage it, that's a more reasonable goal than resolving it because, like you, almost, you have to have conflict to be successful, because you have to function in that way and counterbalance each other. But if you can do it in a way that's more gentle and more positive and conducive to what you're trying to achieve, manage it properly. You don't run into these situations that we were in a decade ago, where you literally are just living with these negative responses to each other. It's such a cycle that you can't even get out of it. You're drowning and it takes a therapist or someone to say hey guys, neither of you are playing fair. You both do this all the time. These four things, this is all you're doing, and here's some ways to do it differently.

Speaker 2 1:00:48

It was just having a teacher. It was having someone just show you how to do something. I don't know why people aren't more open to doing therapy. Because you don't know how to deal with life and all the things that are thrown at us and some of us are thrown really hard things at a very young age that we have to grow up real fast and it just stunts your growth in some areas. So you just don't have the tools to process and deal with. Yet. You have a job and you have bills and responsibilities, kids of your own, but you still haven't developed the basic tools of like I don't know how to communicate with you, yeah, and I have to be able to communicate as the world is throwing us 100 curve balls today.

Speaker 1 1:01:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:01:44

So, yeah, and obviously we're huge advocates of therapy therapy whether it's available to you and you choose not to go that direction, or maybe it is an option for you because of financial reasons, or whatever the case may be.

Speaker 1 1:01:57

Fortunately, we live in a time where there is a ton of information, there are courses that you can participate in, there are resources that you can find online through the Gottman Institute, as an example, that, if you you know books, there are ways that you can seek out information that doesn't necessarily include therapy, but maybe just just as beneficial in fostering and cultivating awareness about how to communicate or whatever the issue or conflict may be in your life, but you have to be the one that seeks those out. You have to be the one that takes responsibility for wanting to understand. What is this cycle of behavior that I'm in? I can't go to therapy, I don't want to go to therapy. Whatever the case may be, therapy makes me feel anxious. Fine, take responsibility, though, and find another avenue to learn and identify some of these hurdles that you're encountering in your life, so that you can make different choices and make adjustments in your sale to better yourself and to better your life and to better your relationships. It starts with you.

Speaker 2 1:03:03

I know this sounds really obvious and silly, but I have to say it. There's been many times in my adult life. I feel like as a kid it doesn't count when you're a kid, because you do this just kind of naturally. But as an adult I feel like we have this, especially men. We have this feeling that we can't talk about our problems, especially we can't talk about stuff we're going through.

Speaker 2 1:03:28

And I can tell you that like there's been critical times in my life, big pinnacle moments, where someone has said something to me or I've just been like hey, how do you feel about this? Or how do you deal with this. Just like an open, honest question of like I need help and like just, just what's your deal with this? Just like an open, honest question of like I need help and like just what's your perspective on this? And having someone that you respect and that you appreciate what they're going to tell you, like that's the first thing, is like having good people to talk to, but like someone that you respect what they're going to say, and like what they say is gold, like it can adjust your sales, as you said, and like go, oh yeah, I never thought of it that way.

Speaker 2 1:04:09

Their life journey. While it might be in parallel to yours and you grew up together whatever they might have a different perspective on the situation. So being able to just communicate and just go old school and say like this is what I'm dealing with, this is what I'm thinking Is this crazy? And then having someone give you like their perspective has helped me, and that's free and we are all connected in that way. So don't be afraid to just literally talk about what you're going through. And that's for the men. Men are so conditioned to be macho and not talk about stuff that we're going through. And that's for the men. Men are so conditioned to be macho and not talk about stuff that we're going through, and just push through it and get through it and quit being a wimp. But it's like man, sometimes you just need to hear a different perspective from somebody and adjust your sails and you can see things with more clarity, less emotional debris and get back on track.

Improving Communication and Self-Awareness

Speaker 1 1:05:07

Yeah, I agree. Definitely for men. I would say, equally the same for women, just a different side, a different vantage point. Because women, while they are more inclined to talk about their feelings or to be open to discussing emotions, feel an immense amount of pressure to have it all together, and discussing things that maybe imply that you don't have it all together, you don't have it figured out, you're not running as tight of a ship as you think you are, can make you feel really intimidated and inept. You know, avoid having those conversations. So to your point. Men, women, everyone alike, kids, no kids, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 1:05:45

We are all humans with the same human emotions. We are all humans with hurdles and conflict in our life and seeking out how to handle those things through experience, through education, through therapy. Whatever the case may be, it's. It comes down to wanting to and having the self-awareness and self-control to learn what is happening and how to handle it, moving forward to better yourself every day, cause this is it, this is it. I say it all the time. If not now, then when I am, if I'm lucky halfway through my life right now, maybe a little over half, you know, based on life expectancy I ain't got much time. I can't keep being a contemptuous bitch all the time. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 1:06:33

If I want to have a good life of love and genuine connection, and I would say, if you're listening to this and it resonates with you, share it with a friend, because this is how we connect, this is how we, you know, stay open-minded as we learn together and grow together. So share with a friend, subscribe to this podcast and, you know, keep tuning in.

Speaker 1 1:06:57

Agreed. Thank you for that plug, Greg. But to your point, if Jackie hadn't brought this up to us in therapy that we were fortunately both open to and able to go to, at that time in our life we wouldn't necessarily know about these four horsemen and the antidotes to them and how to effectively change our communication. Again, we still have conflict, we still don't always get it right, but at least we definitely have had these pieces of information presented to us because someone shared it with us. Can only keep what you have by giving it away. Right. There you go. Were you going to say that?

Speaker 2 1:07:29

Well, I was just going to say and we're just two flawed adult children, you know, trying to figure it out ourselves and share what we've learned along the way. So it's just a privilege to be able to do this podcast and I know you work so hard to deliver every Wednesday, so thank you for allowing me to be on here with you.

Speaker 1 1:08:04

Many of you each and every week. We appreciate that you're here and definitely hope that you find benefit in what we discuss from week to week from a real human standpoint. Like Greg said, just two kids in adult bodies trying to figure it out.