69. Managing Deuterium, Mitochondrial Health & Cancer | Petra Devlaar, ND

This discussion is an exploration of deuterium depleting strategies for the adjunctive treatment of cancer. We cover what is deuterium, its physiological role in the body, how it accumulates and the consequences for cancer and chronic disease. We then discuss practical lifestyle strategies to reduce deuterium in the body via diet, water and other methods.

Petra Davelaar is a naturopathic doctor (ND) who specializes in Deutenomics. She completed her naturopathic medical training at Bastyr University and is certified in functional medicine and nutrition. 

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TIMESTAMPS
0:07 Deutonomics and Cancer Treatment
13:35 The Importance of Sleep and Ketosis
19:42 Revolutionary Insights in Physiology
28:34 Deuterium and Glyphosate Assessment in Health 
36:12 Deuterium Depletion in Cancer Treatment 
53:33 Holistic Approach to Health and Medicine 
1:02:18 Deuterium Low Cookbook Progress and Consultations

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#deuterium #DDW #cancer

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

okay, today I'm speaking with dr petra davla. She is a naturopathic doctor with a focus on deutonomics, and she uses these this approach to treat cancer and has a holistic oncological approach as well as a range of other diseases, including autoimmune disease. So, petra, thank you for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Thank you so much. It's truly my pleasure to be here. I've been listening to many of your podcasts and it's always a joy the questions you ask and the topics you cover. It's been great, Thank you.

Speaker 1: 0:41

Thanks. Thanks for those kind words. Well, the reason I wanted to get you on is because I think you're one of the very few number of clinicians in the world who is using a deutonomics lens in your clinical treatment of patients. And for those who follow the podcast and have heard earlier episodes with Dr Laszlo Boros and Gabor Shomlai, really deutonomics to me seems like quite the fundamental approach because it really deals with what's going on in the mitochondria as it underlies cancer and other diseases. So maybe just launch us off, petra, with your story, your professional background and maybe how you got into deutonomics, your professional background and maybe how you got into deuteronomics?

Speaker 2: 1:24

Yeah, absolutely so. I am a naturopathic doctor and trained in functional medicine and nutrition as well. My dad passed from a glial blastoma when I was 22. He had cancer, and in 2018, my mom was also diagnosed with cancer, and at that point, that changed everything for me. I, you know, went through the later as many third, fourth career to finally I found medicine, and that is what I did. And in 2018, when this happened, I was like yep, I heard about deuterium, I heard about its role or missing something huge in cancer and I'm going to go after it. And so I started studying and did not stop. I haven't stopped. I'm obsessed, and this is what happens with deutonomics. And I was fortunate to meet my mentor, dr Laszlo Boros, in 2018. And he's been extremely helpful in supporting my work, my clinical work, and I've been able to provide him with clinical data to support his work as well, so it's been extremely beneficial. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:57

Great. Give us an overview, a really quick overview, of deutonomics and how you think about it for the layperson. It's something that I like everyone to explain, just because it is such a new topic, and the more smart people that give us an explanation in their own words, I think, the quicker the collective will grasp the concept.

Speaker 2: 3:17

Great. Yes, so deuterium is the stable isotope of hydrogen and it's an extremely unique isotope because the difference between the hydrogen and deuterium is 100% in terms of weight and the size. So that makes it very unique, because if you think of, for instance, carbon, c12 and C13, that's only an 8% difference, right? So any molecule in the body and we all know that we probably have 60 to 70%, depending on your age of your body is water molecules, and the amount of deuterium, the concentration in your body, determines the efficiency of your energy production ultimately, and so if that level is much higher than it should be, if you're not able to excrete as efficiently as is good for you, then you will start to have mitochondrial dysfunction, and what type truly depends on what your susceptibilities are, your lifestyle, your underlying other conditions, and that's where it will manifest.

Speaker 1: 4:33

So deuterium for the listener obviously is a naturally occurring isotope and there are physiological roles of deuterium, so maybe explain why or how it's becoming a problem, and specifically with regard to perhaps cancer.

Speaker 2: 4:52

Sure. So, yes, we know that deuterium is important for structural proteins and tissues, right, so for bone and for connective tissue. But for moving proteins it is a problem. And, in fact, if you start collecting too much deuterium inside of the matrix of mitochondria, you will break down the nanomotors that are essential for energy production nanomotors that are essential for energy production and it will also force cell division. And that, of course, is why we call deuterium an oncoisotope, because it can actually push the cell in towards this type of environment.

Speaker 1: 5:43

That's very good explanation. And look, cancer incidence and the population diagnoses seem to just be increasing. And if we think about these diseases of civilization, prior to the Industrial Revolution they were rare. And again, if you read the work of anthropologists like Weston, a Price these traditional people did not have cancer was unheard of. So there's obviously been profound environmental changes between then and now. So how do we explain these changes in the context of a deutonomics lens?

Speaker 2: 6:22

So we know that slowly, over time, the level of deuterium has increased in our environment, but more so our food has changed, and one of the biggest ways that we take in deuterium is through both water and the food we consume, and the concentration of deuterium in fats is the lowest.

Speaker 2: 6:50

And the natural, authentically raised animal proteins are the next set of really medium level of deuterium content. And then you have your green vegetables, which are due to the process of photosynthesis, also lower in deuterium content, and then you have your green vegetables which are due to the process of photosynthesis, also lower in deuterium, and then you start going up higher. So you hit the root vegetables, your fruits, your grains, and then the processed foods go even higher. And so the more we consume this industrial way of eating and the amount of carbohydrates we consume and that is also very much promoted to consume a plant-based, grain-based diet it increases the levels in our tissues. So I think that's a really big part of it. And then, on top of it of, of course, we have moved indoors as a species, right? So you've talked about that endlessly. So, um, that are.

Speaker 1: 7:51

These are all very much contributing factors and you know, in terms of the cancer, I think there's so many other pieces involved, of course as well, you know yeah, I in some of my previous we've just dissected this diet-heart hypothesis and the kind of historical inflection point that was Ancel Keys and really attacking these natural animal foods as kind of the source of heart disease. I believe someone's described him as possibly responsible for the most number of deaths you know potentially in society, as unintentionally, but the fact that we've replaced animal fats with low deuterium animal fats with these high deuterium refined seed oils, I mean it's just, it's the reverberations are immense and highly, highly damaging. So, and it's just so, and I'm glad you brought up the vegan and plant-based diet because really when you understand deuteronomics, it's the final word on the appropriateness of a plant-based diet for humans, because it's just a deuterium-loaded diet.

Speaker 2: 9:03

Yeah, that's exactly right yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:05

It's just a deuterium-loaded diet. Yeah, that's exactly right. Talk to me about the natural depleting mechanisms of deuterium, because if you think about certain populations, perhaps living equatorially, they consume fruit regularly and they are potentially exposed to a higher level of deuterium in the water that they're drinking because of hydrological cycles and natural occurrences. So why are they not, say, the Catarvons or people living in a natural environment? Why are they not experiencing consequences of high deuterium accumulation?

Speaker 2: 9:43

It's the sunlight, it's their sunlight exposure that completely balances that out for them, which is why we also in the summertime, can consume more fruits, because we balance that with light. So it's really that piece that very much plays a huge role.

Speaker 1: 10:00

And there are specific light wavelengths that are helping or accelerating the body's natural deuterium depletion mechanisms that you are aware of.

Speaker 2: 10:10

As I understand, 670 seems to be a very useful one, but all infrared light is important for us. We know that that complex four is a chromophore and that light gets absorbed there very well, but we also produce our own infrared light, I understand. So these are all pieces of the puzzle. The light aspect is also crucial for the melanin synthesis in our skin and, of course, if we have abundant amounts of melanin and that is exposed to sunlight, we produce energy in the form of hydrogen gas and oxygen gas that then can be recycled in mitochondria for metabolic water production and again generate more energy for us. So these are all processes tightly related.

Speaker 1: 11:04

I'm really glad you brought up the sunlight because I've been following some of the more diet-focused spokespeople of, say, the seed oil debate. And Chris Kenobi has done amazing work and he studied, he went to, I believe, Melanesia and was looking at, say, the Catarvons and looking at the percentage of carbohydrates in their diet and observing that they have a massive percentage of carbohydrate and yet they didn't have metabolic dysfunction. And that in itself is a real shot to the heart of the carbohydrate insulin model. It's obviously carbohydrates on their own are not sufficient to cause metabolic disease and all these mitochondrial issues. The carbohydrates on their own are not sufficient to cause metabolic disease and all these mitochondrial issues. But I feel like they are really missing the elephant in the room, which is these people, these traditional people. Yes, they're eating carbohydrates, but they're all outside the whole time that they're consuming these foods.

Speaker 2: 11:57

That's a key aspect that very few take in consideration, but we need to address that.

Speaker 1: 12:03

And in terms of other ways that your body naturally gets rid of deuterium, can you speak to any other mechanisms?

Speaker 2: 12:11

Yeah, I mean through breathing, through making sure first of all that it's not coming in in these high amounts. You know we've discussed endlessly that the amount of water that people consume is way in excess of what their body actually needs and requires. No one seems to pay attention to going by the thirst impulse that you get and sit with that for a few minutes so that you can upregulate your own metabolic water production. That for a few minutes so that you can upregulate your own metabolic water production. I mean the recommendations for people to consume half their body weight in ounces is really not based or founded or grounded in any kind of biochemical, physiological processes. So generally those are made by individuals that don't realize we make our own water and in fact we recycle and synthesize up to 2,000 gallons in a 24-hour period, as much as we circulate blood. So it's fascinating to realize that and we should honor that.

Speaker 2: 13:18

We are capable of doing that and not deuterium loading with drinking you know, plastic bottled water generally and just always lugging that around and making sure that you're hydrating. So this is a big piece. So that's that. Sleep is instrumental for depleting. We do so. Our breathing rate changes and I'll come back to breathing in a little bit because it's it's so uh fundamental the new information that I've learned. But when we sleep, we um lower our breathing rate and the ability of the gas exchange improves and we are able to uh burn um, you know, fats while we sleep and and and deplete in that way as well. So it's a all beautiful mechanisms that work together.

Speaker 1: 14:10

So, yeah, yeah, I, I have an image in my mind of these little post-it notes that some people put on their in front of their computer. You know, drink, um, drink eight glasses of water a day and they have their giant polycarbonate and bottle of of tap water and they're drinking it, you know, in the office, under artificial light with obviously no infrared light, just deuterium loading the whole day. And you really, yeah, as you said, they obviously don't understand or realize and not many people do that the body is making its own water, as you said, at the fourth stage of the electron transport chain. So, and obviously that when we're eating fats then we are helping to promote our own endogenous water production.

Speaker 2: 14:56

Yeah, this is so beautiful. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but yeah, this is a fundamental piece. So from 100 grams of fat we produce 110 grams of metabolic water, and from 100 grams of carbohydrates we produce half of that 55 grams. So that's a huge piece.

Speaker 2: 15:20

There's another part to this and I'd like to briefly discuss this great paper that was published in January in Medical Hypotheses, by Dr Boros and his colleagues, including Stephanie Seneff, describes is a beautiful example of how mitochondrial and paroxysmal crosstalk can increase energy production and the efficiency of how our bodies utilize oxygen. So this is a paper that discusses Adrian Ballard, who is a high-altitude climber and had attempted to summit Mount Everest six times. He did so. He attempted to do that without supplementary oxygen. He, six times in a row, failed. He had to return and go back, and thankfully he had the mental capacity still to make that decision. Because what actually happens is when your brain is deprived of oxygen, and of course, that's the case when this mountain is 8,848 meters high and the atmospheric pressure is much, much lower. And I just recently watched this great video where they put a pilot in a decompression chamber and within minutes he started losing function and they made him write things. But another aspect happened he felt a sense of euphoria, so he didn't even. He didn't panic, he was fine, and so this may explain why so many of these high altitude climbers actually never return.

Speaker 2: 17:19

Right, we don't even find them. But 2023 was one of the deadliest years At least 12 for confirmed dead, but over 20 were missing. We don't even find them. But 2023 was one of the deadliest years At least 12 were confirmed dead, but over 20 were missing. But let's go back to Adrian, and he decided he was very, very motivated, and so he decided to undertake his seventh attempt in a state of natural ketosis of natural ketosis and this was on May 27, 2017, that he successfully summited without any additional oxygen, and so what this illustrates is the fact that we basically have what Dr Borges called a hybrid engine in these two cell organelles, the peroxisomes and the mitochondria, working together to upregulate the production and recycle oxygen. So this is a huge piece of it.

Speaker 2: 18:16

The peroxisomes are cellular organelles that can break down very long-chain fatty acids and also branch-chain fatty acids. Those are primarily from dairy. They have either a single or two or multiple side chains. Most fatty acids are straight, but the peroxisomes can break these down and there's also a dissolved oxygen in our bloodstream and together with these fatty acids, the hydrogens that are broken down there, the peroxisomes, create ketone bodies. They create short-chain fatty acids, hydrogen peroxide, and it also reduces NAD+. So very important functions for cellular metabolism and so together these two, when you are in a state of natural ketosis, your body can compensate and it recycles the oxygen that you have stored in your bloodstream and produces again the metabolic water to produce the energy you required. Metabolic water to produce the energy you required and the abilities to withstand these lower environmental pressures, as well as increases your endurance. So it's a beautiful example and all the calculations are there to increase and yeah, it's fascinating, incredible.

Speaker 1: 19:42

And so that was Adrian Ballinger, was it? Yeah, I've heard of him before and I might have to get him on the podcast to talk about that, but it's a point that Dr Boris has made, and so has Jack Cruz, which is the Sherpa running on fully grass-fed butter. That's what they're doing to haul corpulent American and European climbers, tourists, up the mountain every day. So it's amazing that, if we think about two instances of human performance, which is obviously high-altitude mountaineering, but also when people are really sick and obviously have end-stage mitochondrial disease, which is cancer, that in both instances they benefit massively from these pure, really, really low deuterium foods, which is, these grass-fed animal fats.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Yeah, that's absolutely true. It also highlights another piece which I would love to touch on as well, which is what I've recently come about. I've been communicating with a whole set of brilliant scientists and researchers. I'm fortunate enough that Martha Carlin, who is a researcher and has a company called the Bio Collective, who has been trying to solve Parkinson's, and she connected me to some other researchers, and one of them is Barry Ninnam, and he is your fellow Australian and he just turned 88 years old.

Speaker 2: 21:20

He has written some absolutely fascinating papers in the last few years with brilliant colleagues, papers in the last few years with brilliant colleagues and basically, he has brought to my attention the fact that physical chemistry, colloid chemistry, surface chemistry and therefore medical textbooks in biochemistry have all omitted the role of dissolved gas in our physiology, in our bodies, and this is a huge omission. And so in 2019, he wrote a paper with Brandon Rines that discusses the structure and function of the endothelial surface layer and the glycocalyx complex, and it turns out that a lot of what we know about classic, traditional respiratory health is not accurate. In 2022, barry Nenum wrote a paper, again with Reins, as well as Matt Batty and Paul Thomas, to use the whole COVID-19 phenomena to explain exactly what we all have wrong, and I want to just briefly explain it because it's so amazing and I'm only starting to get the basics of it. But what it entails is that the way we take in oxygen we've just been told okay, you breathe in, you take the oxygen from the air even though 80% of the air we breathe in is nitrogen and then somehow that oxygen in the alveoli moves into your hemoglobin and boom, there you go. Well, actually, no, so you breathe in a combination of nitrogen and oxygen, and the alveoli have a pulmonary surfactant, is a 3D structure that then packages the nitrogen and oxygen gas in nanobubbles, and the nanobubbles are being taken up, and that is what primarily is in the bloodstream, and the transitioning of oxygen into the red blood cells happens in the bloodstream by compartmentalization and it moves straight in, and so this is entirely different than what we have ever been told.

Speaker 2: 23:56

So if you then look at the makeup of of the, the endothelial surface layer, which is formed on top of lipid membranes, and then you have a very, very uh thin um glycocalyx layer, that is basically a um, uh, bicontinuous um medium that is made up of intersecting nano uh tubules that direct and regulate and monitor all cellular traffic.

Speaker 2: 24:33

And then on top of that is this layer of it's almost like grass that can kind of move with the blood flow that is made up of these hydrocarbons, these polymers that are largely sulfated, and they create it's completely populated by the nanobubbles and they create basically a type of a Teflon layer that's called Navion, which is a synthetic form of it, and that creates this exclusion zone that then can repel all sorts of things.

Speaker 2: 25:05

And what's amazing is that on the side of the arteries the predominant nanobubble is made up of the nitrogen and oxygen gas, and on the venous side it's largely CO2, which is what we then of course, expel through the frit of the layers because of metabolism. So it's and, as Barry Nenum has stated, the CO2 is not a metabolic waste product, it's actually a saint and it helps us to regulate our bodies. And I've learned from the book from breath breathe by James Nestor, the research in there that discusses how we have over a hundred times more carbon dioxide in our in our bodies than oxygen. And it's it's absolutely instrumental how we, how the gas exchange takes place, and the efficiency of that, how that happens. And it turns out that most of us have become over-breathers and breathing over 20 times in a minute, which is way in excess of how to actually properly oxygenate our tissues. So so many amazing pieces are coming together. So many amazing pieces are coming together if we take this larger lens and I encourage you to connect with Barry and Matt who are of it.

Speaker 1: 26:58

So, um, yeah, it's fascinating yeah, I mean, I'm reminded of obviously saying that, you know, mother nature never makes mistakes, and there's been so many instances throughout the history of science and medicine where it's just presumed that the appendix is just some vestigial organ that's unnecessary, that the DNA isn't coding, it's simply junk DNA. I mean, it's just a reflection of the hubris and ignorance of human knowledge at that point in time. More than anything else, that's right. And also I mean delving down the physiology of cardiovascular system. There's no appreciation of the role of structured water in vascular flow. The obvious or the glaringly, in my mind, irreconciled fact that the heart's pressure propulsion, my model of pressure propulsion, just doesn't account for the flow dynamics in the cardiovascular system. And then obviously, mitchell's chemoosmotic theory. There's so many holes in the orthodoxy of biology and thought at the moment.

Speaker 1: 28:04

So thanks for bringing up this other aspect. That's something I hadn't heard of. I knew there was questions or question marks around oxygen delivery specifically, but that sounds very, very interesting in terms of a mechanism. And I actually talked about the glycocalyx as it relates to structured water in my talk of Regenerate, which is going to be released pretty soon. But yeah, thank you for bringing that up and maybe the the final. We're just talking about deuterium excretion, and we've talked about breath. We've talked about, um uh, sunlight, and maybe the last couple of mechanisms that we haven't mentioned was sweating and and urine and feces.

Speaker 2: 28:48

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's clearly how we deplete. These are the instrumental. It goes out in saliva, urine, feces, sweat. These are all very important.

Speaker 1: 29:02

It just makes you think that, yeah, the body, when we're living in an environment that we would have evolved in, then. These processes are all self-balancing and self-correcting, and we've managed to get in our own way with regard to deuterium One deuterium ingestion and obviously found ways of jacking up the deuterium content of our foods, and then found ways of impairing our excretion of deuterium by sitting inside climate-controlled buildings our whole lives, not sweating, not getting any light or anything like that.

Speaker 2: 29:38

Yeah, absolutely. And there are other disabling factors and one of those and I'm very thankful that Stephanie Seneff has really taken a huge dive into understanding how glyphosate impairs deuterium physiology in our body and the kinetic isotopes we simply are not able to deplete as well, because of glyphosate, it disables the enzymes that are required to efficiently do so. So this is another huge piece that needs to be addressed in people's diet and their surroundings, because oftentimes they may not eat it, but they're still getting it because of where they live and who else is spraying around them and so forth.

Speaker 1: 30:19

So, yeah, the glyphosate issue is one that I think is very, very important because it really links disparate parts of this optimal health puzzle. It links farming to mitochondrial function, to food sourcing, to oncology and it's a real. I feel like it's something that if we can target we can really do a lot of good. And if you think about shooting all the birds in one stone, if you find a farmer and you and you source your fully grass-fed meat and fat from from that farmer that doesn't use any kind of chemical and doesn't feed his cows glyphosate laden um grass or or uh crops, then on grains, then you're you're really controlling for the deuterium and the glyphosate and a bunch of other things at the same time yeah, as long as he doesn't have neighbors that do it, so that it doesn't transfer over.

Speaker 2: 31:13

But yeah, these are key pieces, absolutely do you?

Speaker 1: 31:16

do you ever check glyphosate status, say like a urinary glyphosate level?

Speaker 2: 31:20

I do I do with everyone. Yeah, I try as much as I can. Um, and some of them are really elevated.

Speaker 1: 31:27

Uh, I try to test both for deuterium levels as well as glyphosate levels and let's get into that, because we'll talk now about maybe some clinical implementations of your holistic approach. But say, you're testing a urinary glyphosate level and I believe that it tests for both glyphosate and one of the major metabolites of glyphosate level, and I believe that it tests for both glyphosate and one of the major metabolites of glyphosate. That's what the assay tests for um. Does it correlate pretty well, to say, if they live in the midwest of the us where it's all um gmo country and there's glyphosate being sprayed everywhere, is it? Is it correlating pretty well to um ingestion and and location, or what's your experience?

Speaker 2: 32:08

no, no, because I have clients in los angeles that have the highest levels that I've ever seen, and I think that happens because town, the the los angeles um gardening crews spraying it on all over town, I mean I don't know how else they could be so contaminated, um. So I I think there are other forces that work there as well yeah, look at that's.

Speaker 1: 32:33

That's something that I've thought about. You know you go, you go out to the park to do some barefoot sprinting and the crew have just been spraying all kinds of disgusting herbicides. And uh, you think you do, you're doing everything well, you're getting your grounding into sunlight, but then you you might have taken home a whole bunch of atrazine. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 32:52

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 32:54

And so obviously, with Ray's glyphosate level, I'm presuming you're also seeing people with pretty low levels, and what are they doing right to reduce that glyphosate?

Speaker 2: 33:09

to reduce that glyphosate. I mean, I don't know whether they're doing it right or their bodies are more efficient in clearing it. I know very little about exactly how that takes place. It's not easy to break down glyphosate. There's a few agents that we know that are helpful. Others maybe choose to eat organic and have less coming in and are fortunate not to live in an area where there's heavy spraying around them, where they're breathing it in. I don't know. I think there's so many factors that we're just not clear on to make real strong assumptions about that.

Speaker 1: 33:44

Yeah, that's fair enough. I mean, my perspective on testing is you're only going to test something if you can do something, if it's going to affect the management of the patient. And I really think that, although it's not a really validated assay, I guess if you have a ridiculously high level in a patient, you can at least advise them to move away or to maybe implement some behavioral changes by organic food and perhaps that will help get it down. Have you seen serial testing and reduction of glyphosate?

Speaker 2: 34:20

um, I have not um seen huge shifts. They've come down. Um. You disappeared for a second. There you are, um, so I I haven't always been fortunate enough to do repeated testing. Um, in some cases where I have um, I feel there has not been enough of a shift. So, um, I'm currently trying new approaches to break that down and if I have better information, I will let you know yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1: 34:52

It's something I'm very interested in yeah maybe we'll talk about deuterium testing, and so what are the options for assessing a patient's deuterium status?

Speaker 2: 35:01

so mostly, mostly, what I utilize is the saliva testing that's currently being offered by Lightwater or Quicksilver Scientific in the US. In Europe I have certain sources that can test breath levels, so there are other ways to do it. But, yeah, it's helpful to see, and so there are other ways to do it because I know it's going to be high. There's no need to check. I've checked enough people that I know that that's what that is. So if costs are in consideration, which often they are, then I don't even bother. But it's useful to see and certainly if you then implement and retest and see that you are getting the results which I've done many times which is great. Really implementing a strategy of lowering the incoming deuterium and changing some of your lifestyles, it has a very profound effect and you can restore tissues and organ function and improve the way your body produces energy and ultimately that's what we want.

Speaker 1: 36:37

Yeah, that's amazing and just for a guide, maybe can you give us some numbers about what say someone comes in with a new diagnosis of breast cancer, what type of ballpark deuterium would you detect in their saliva?

Speaker 2: 36:50

150, 155. I mean, I had one stage four patient five years ago. She's doing fine, but she came in with a level of 161 um in her breath and um, I mean it was so high it's extremely unusual because it's way above even natural abundance. So to to concentrate it to that level um was was amazing. But generally the levels that I find are around 148, 149, 151. Ideally in our bodies we would have that in the 130 or below range. Then at that point we know that the level of deuterium is such that mitochondrial dysfunction should not really take place and your body will be allowed to function at a much better level.

Speaker 1: 37:50

I mean, I'm just imagining someone with a parts per million deuterium and sorry for any listeners, specifically we're talking about parts per million as a unit here and you can just imagine that someone who has that amount of deuterium in their body must feel pretty fatigued because their mitochondria that are supposed to be their colony of mitochondria that are making energy for them, if they're constantly getting all their ATPase nanomotors getting knocked out by this significant amount of deuterium, you'd think that they'd be feeling pretty tired and run down.

Speaker 2: 38:23

Yeah, exactly yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:27

So the strategies here? So we've got someone with severe mitochondrial dysfunction and that's manifested in a cancer diagnosis. Maybe it's manifested it's type 2 diabetes, and so I guess the strategy, a deuteronomic strategy, is getting that level of deuterium lower and that's the strategy. And then the outcome is that the mitochondria should improve their function. Because there's less deuterium they're able to use, height, their tunneling efficiency increases and therefore the symptoms of these mitochondrial diseases improve. Is that basically a good summary of what the treatment strategy is?

Speaker 2: 39:09

Yeah, exactly, and of course my favorite lipid panel is an NMR lipid fractionation panel what the composition is of their LDL cholesterol, so that I can really direct them towards saturated fats rather than the plant seed oils, because that's always clear on those and I really like that. Of course, I check individual markers for your vitamin A's and D's and minerals and so forth and really try to correct it as individually as possible and use whatever interventions that we know can help deplete or be most efficient to support whether that's your liver or your kidneys, support whether that's your liver or your kidneys and then just kind of manage. This is a whole other new area that I've recently been exposed to. There's a researcher, leonard Nyatu, um redox technologies, and he has uh shown me um data that if you measure uh oxidative stress, you really want to be in a state of hormesis. You want some oxidative stress and you want some antioxidants, but you don't want lots of antioxidants because that also opposes some of the other processes that we're doing, and so so he's the one that recently explained to me in a very clear way how there is another way even to look at water in the body, which is based on the nuclear spin of the water which is determined by the direction of the ATPase of mitochondria.

Speaker 2: 41:11

So whether that's left-sided or right-sided, clockwise or counterclockwise, you produce a different structure of water. So it's para-water and ortho-water and there's a very specific ratio that we produce that in. But the ortho water will have either a negative, minus one charge or plus one charge. And you know, the right side of water is the plus one and that's the ortho water. That really is very important for the transmission of electro tunneling, proton tunneling and all of that and supports cellular function. But the para with the negative charge, the left-sided one, is not.

Speaker 2: 41:55

So yeah, there's just so much that I know I kind of get off here. But these pieces of information, of this imprinting of the water, depending on your oxidative state and how we modulate, that is what we have to also get really good at so that we can ensure that the mitochondria nanomotors run to the right and produce this beneficial form of the para water and of the ortho water. Sorry, para water has no charge and again, deuterium plays a role in this as well. Um, that changes the water structure from that and and the charge. So yeah, it's all really really fascinating. And uh, I, uh, you know our friend logan duval keeps um encouraging me to dig deeper and go further and act more pieces of the puzzle because there's so many amazing researchers out there that are doing the work and are providing more information for all of us to do a better job every day.

Speaker 1: 42:53

Yeah, and look, that is the crux and the heart of this decentralized approach. This is decentralized oncology, and I think decentralized oncology is possibly one of the most needed of the kind of decentralized health and medicine approaches, because the war on cancer which was declared in 1971 seems to have just enriched the pockets of pharma with increasingly expensive therapeutics that have. And look, don't get me wrong, some say immunotherapy for metastatic melanoma is an advancement, so it's not all static, but as a whole we haven't really gotten anywhere with cancer as a society. And that's where this geosynomics approach, your approaches, your holistic approaches and the researchers that you're mentioning, are so important, because people aren't being served, the patient is not being served. I think that's why we're talking. That's why we're not having this discussion right now is because if the system were serving people, then we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.

Speaker 2: 43:58

Yeah, well, that's unfortunately very true. There are some conventional care in oncology that makes sense. You know, certain surgeries perhaps in some cases radiation is absolutely indicated looked at 92 novel immunotype therapies over a period of 16 years from 2000 to 2017. And they looked at the actual increase of medium survival time of these therapies. Okay, do you want to make a guess what that was?

Speaker 1: 44:40

It was like four months, maybe 2.6.

Speaker 2: 44:44

Yeah 2.6 months and 100%.

Speaker 2: 44:48

But it's astounding because, you know, these therapies cost so much money and the patient's insurance company money are being just, you know, their their policies are being emptied out and they're not getting a lot of benefit because oftentimes these therapies come with side effects that do not really improve quality of life.

Speaker 2: 45:12

So you know again, there are some therapies that work very well and they need to be selected carefully, and that's why it's useful to try and navigate the terrain and the options with someone that has an understanding of how all of this goes. But you know, if you look at the data that Gabor Šumyai published, based on the Hungarian population, where the average life expectancy is 2.8 years after a cancer diagnosis, and if you just and that's all he did at the time, he never introduced food until the last few years, but he just cycled periods of deuterium depleted water alongside all of the mainstream conventional oncology, he was able to show that it increased life expectancy four to five fold, so we're talking 11 to 15 years. I mean, that is unheard of. There's no other therapy that I can think of that could possibly make a shift like that. So it has to be part of anyone's plan to move forward. That's how I see it.

Speaker 1: 46:24

Yeah, no, I agree, and we'll talk about deuterium depleted water for cancer soon. I want to make the point that if we can see such a plateauing of benefits with the subsequent drug developments, as you mentioned median survival of 2.4 months to me that just speaks to the fact that, collectively, the intellectual paradigm is wrong. It's so unable to explain both the cause why cancer is developing and the pathophysiology. Because if it were able to explain it, then, one, we would have effective prevention mechanisms, which we don't, and two, we would have effective cure, which we don't. We've simply got a collective ignorance of what is actually causing cancer. I mean, I just did a long podcast with a circadian biologist, dr Martin Moirid, and he's just presenting reams of evidence of artificial light at night and its link to breast cancer development. What oncology service, what patient cancer support service, is actually talking about these fundamental root causes?

Speaker 2: 47:26

They're not.

Speaker 1: 47:27

They're not. They're not at all.

Speaker 2: 47:28

They're not. No, I published an article on that on the Townsend Letter in January 23,. Exactly what you're saying. And if you go to all of the academic cancer institutions in the United States and you look at their explanation, what cancer is, I mean, there you go, they have no idea. They don't, um, and they they blame genetics. You know mutations, genetic mutations, that's it. And so we know that's not true, because it also doesn't. It doesn't. You can't solve that, you know so. So, um, there are, yeah, there. There is a completely different way of looking at all of this. You have to understand what it is that went wrong and how to treat that.

Speaker 1: 48:06

Otherwise, you're just guessing and really it's strategic ambiguity, because that ambiguity is benefiting a situation where you can just treat with a pharmaceutical chemotherapeutic agent, which is, as you've talked about, alluded to incredibly lucrative process. And you know, in my talk at Recent Regenerate I referenced a British medical journal paper that was describing how the revolving door between the FDA and and hematology oncology departments and basically reviewers, medical reviewers who are approving chemotherapeutic agents in these cancer in the department then therefore either going to work in pharma or have come from pharma and then go into the agency. So it's an incredibly sordid mix of conflicts of interest. And what you're advocating, what I'm advocating, isn't the removal of these therapies, it's simply the implementation of best practice lifestyle alongside standard of care, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, and I think that's a key point, because we're not trying to tell people to flip off their oncologist, we're telling them to do this alongside, or we're suggesting that they might investigate things like deuterium depleted water alongside their conventional treatment.

Speaker 2: 49:36

That's correct. Yeah, I 100% agree.

Speaker 1: 49:40

So maybe we can. Yeah, so talk about this deuterium depleting strategy. So we've got someone who's come in there. They've got a cancer diagnosis. We know, either by direct testing or simple, um your clinical experience, that they're loaded with with deuterium. So we want to get that number down and and we've we've talked about, um, eating a diet of a high fat animal-based diet or carnivore diet, which is going going to be rich in, which is going to be very low in deuterium. But what else can we do?

Speaker 2: 50:07

and specifically with regard to the water, Well, I think, to first kind of switch your body into moving to burning fats for fuel rather than carbs, you have to most likely use intermittent, if not several days of fasting in order to make that switch happen. So that's, I think, huge In terms of the water. You know if you can afford it, it would be and there soon will be better, cheaper, more effective. You know ways of having this water coming to you, but if you can, it's really useful to use it. Realize that the most of the waters that are currently on the market are what I call concentrates. They're very, very, very low in the PPM of the water 10 or 18 or 25. That should not be drunk straight up.

Speaker 2: 50:59

I really think I advocate for mixing and diluting it to a certain level. Be consistent with that, based on your diagnosis, based on the amount you consume and based on your body weight. And then you want to change that. That is really Dr Shomye's experience challenging the body by drinking it for a certain period at a certain ppm, then lowering that for another period and then maybe stop for a period and then bring it back in. You know, so don't get set in a certain place. Realize that our bodies are very dynamic, constantly changing. The foods that we consume are also changing and so challenge that and, yeah, I think that's really a key piece.

Speaker 1: 51:47

Yeah, I've got a copy of his book here, deuterium Depletion by Dr Gabor Shomla. And look, this really contains the protocols that people can use to start a process of that by themselves, do you? Is that what you use to walk a patient through a deuterium depleting protocol if they have, say, a cancer diagnosis?

Speaker 2: 52:11

I have used my way of doing it now and it really depends on, again, the person and all of the personalized pieces to the fossil that I take. But yeah, it's largely based exactly on what he does.

Speaker 1: 52:30

Yeah, Can you speak to the process of synthesizing deuterium depleted water? Because this is relevant in the fact that in Australia there's one importer of this Hungarian deuterium depleted water and it is quite expensive and you can imagine that the weight and freighting is a large part of that cost. So why can't we just simply make deuterium depleted water anywhere? What goes into the process of making it?

Speaker 2: 52:59

Well, currently, the process that's utilized by the large producers that are doing it is distal column distillation. That has to happen under a certain pressure and a certain temperature, because that is when you what's called fractionate separate the deuterium from the hydrogen. So this process has to be done over and over, which is energy, you know, high in energy consumption, and so that's why the cost of water is that much and, like you said, it's the weight right. So, but I think there are other ways, and nanobubbles might be the key to that in fractionating the water, and that is ultimately where this all has to go. And if I had my drudgers, instead of somebody having their body glove water filter or their reverse osmosis, they will have a type of a filter at home that can lower incoming deuterium. I mean, that's where I hope that it can all go for us.

Speaker 1: 54:01

Amazing. Yeah, well, it seems to be something that we definitely need. It reminds me of there's graphs that basically graph the energy consumption of a society and their standard of living. And as the energy usage goes up, the standard of living of the society goes up. And there's a bunch of very energy-intensive processes that help us live in this society. Aluminium smeltering is one of them, but deuterium depletion maybe, if there aren't further advancements in lowering the energy-intensiveness of fractionation, you can just imagine that maybe that needs to be located near a power plant or a geothermal source. I know in El Salvador they've got a lot of geothermal from the volcanoes and maybe something like who knows, even low-cost nuclear power is able to put a deuterium depletion facility in every city and therefore pipe I mean, jack Cruz had a great podcast once he envisioned the hospital of the future would essentially pipe deuterium depleted water into it.

Speaker 1: 55:10

Yeah, that's what should happen, and all patients would be drinking deuterium depleted water because they're that sick. So who knows that, if anyone, any engineers, are listening, then these are important problems that need to be solved, yeah correct?

Speaker 1: 55:28

How can we get the energy intensiveness of deuterium depletion water down? How can we make it more accessible and cheap? You can talk to the benefits that you've seen clinically and I think survival, mortality, survival is kind of the hardest endpoints that we can look at to see how effective treatments are. So yeah, talk to us about what you've found.

Speaker 2: 55:45

So I mean, clearly, the outcome is that I'm working with a variety of breast cancer patients who were diagnosed back in 2019 and they were metastatic. And we're here. We're here, we're moving forward. We're just, you know, continually adding any new pieces that come to my awareness and we move forward and we're doing good. So right now it's too early to give an end point to that. You know, I'm just treasuring all of those contacts and that's the cancer picture, but know that just the water alone doesn't save people, right? I need to really be clear on that. It takes everything. And then it's still the role of the type of cancer and the person's ability to actually utilize fats which is also an issue. I've had some clients who simply cannot break down the fatty acids. No matter how much carnitine or whatever else you do, it just doesn't happen and that really ends up being detrimental. So there are many still other pieces to solve, but there is for sure a lessening of any side effects, of maintaining good appetite and energy and all of those things. Yeah, that definitely is the case.

Speaker 2: 57:11

In my non-cancer types of patients, you know, we are able to really reverse some dysfunction, and mostly I talk about the effect on the endocrine system. And, um, you know, one of my favorite examples is always the two young women who were consuming four to five quarts or liters of water every day and um, they lose their menstrual cycle. And what happens is, if you drink that much water, you depress, suppress antidiuretic hormone. But antidiuretic hormone is co-secreted in the hypothalamus with the other crucial gonadotrophic releasing hormone and thyroid releasing hormone and some others, and so you reduce all of those as well.

Speaker 2: 58:03

And this 19 year old had a estrogen level of less than five, which, as you may know, is lower than most postmenopausal women, and this was achieved by eating a high carb diet with drinking this much water. So this was achieved by eating a high-carb diet with drinking this much water. So, taking her off of that, lowering the water intake, moving towards a low-carb, higher-fat diet and I track this with deuterium levels as well as the hormone levels After one month we went to 40 for estradiol and after two months it was 120. And her cycle was back. So I mean this is profound information and no one talks about that. Water drinking can actually cause secondary amenorrhea, you know? No, we call that just idiopathic. You know we're the idiots we can't figure to say you know. So I mean it's really profound that we can alter your entire endocrine system by just managing these pieces. So this is fundamental.

Speaker 1: 59:10

I'm just so impressed about your holistic approach because what you're implementing in all these different ways and all these different techniques and lifestyle advices is actually addressing why the patient fell sick in the first place. And really, unless we address why they fell sick in the first place, we're not really going to get anywhere close to an effective reversal, remission or cure. The point you also made about the moving physiology and lifestyles of moving target, it really, uh, you can see that mitochondrial function, the colony or the health of those mitochondria, it's dynamic. It's it's going to be a function of how well someone can stick to a lifestyle protocol and if they've got a busy life, if they've got other stresses going on, um, maybe they can't, um, do do everything that that they've been prescribed or advised. So, yes, it's. It's uh kind of like I always try and say just do what you can, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Correct, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:00:12

Yeah, it has to work for you. It has to be livable. Yeah, it's a key piece, I think yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:19

Is there anything that we haven't discussed, petra, that you'd like to to to mention before we wrap up?

Speaker 2: 1:00:27

Um, no, I think we covered just so much. It's all really about being sensible and being open to including as many pieces as you can make happen in your life for the, for the, the way you live and and what you need to do in order to make a living. You know all of that. It has to be sensible, that's all. Um, you know, no one wants to be the food police, no one wants to be. You know rigid about all of these things and you have to just welcome in new information when it comes to your attention and integrate it in your thinking.

Speaker 1: 1:01:02

I think that's really yes, and and look at the way I also um think about this is it's we just as as uh, clinicians just giving options, but we're not. We're not telling people to do anything and we're simply and what I believe is the duty of of a doctor is to give an informed consent about the risks and benefits of of every single single option and intervention, whether that's chemotherapeutic or deuterium depleted water or exercise, absolutely everything in between. And that's where it really is the crux of the issue. It's simply about patient choice, patient information, and many choose not to delve down these rabbit holes, and that's fine. That choice can be respected as well. But I think the tragedy that you and I are both trying to address is the fact that intelligent, motivated patients who would do something about their condition to improve it aren't being given the information and the opportunity and the choice to do so.

Speaker 2: 1:02:01

Well worse than that, that's often being dismissed. Food has nothing to do so. Well, worse than that, that's often being dismissed. You know, food has nothing to do with it. I mean, how often does an oncologist make that statement? It's, it's a joke at this point, you know, and it's very inconsiderate to the person sitting in front of them. Yeah, you know and maybe you.

Speaker 1: 1:02:18

I heard on the podcast you're putting together a deuterium low deuterium cookbook or a cookbook that integrates these practices, these deuterium references. So how's that going and can people buy that and maybe leave us with some information about how we can get in touch with you?

Speaker 2: 1:02:34

Yeah, so the book is not even close to being done, but it's a project that my daughter and I have been working on. It's involved because it's a project that my daughter and I have been working on. It's involved because it's seasonal, so we think about that as well, and so that means we have to collect the samples and weigh and freeze them, and then it has to be assessed. So we're in that process. We are both lovers of good food, and she's an amazing designer, so and a great chef, so we're combining our efforts and talents and making meals that are really delicious but are, overall, low in deuterium, and that's really, um, what we aim to do, so it's going to be great, um, really. All my information is on my website and I try to update that on a regular basis. It's drpatriotdcom.

Speaker 1: 1:03:26

Great and can people apply to consult and work with you? Are you taking new patients at the moment?

Speaker 2: 1:03:33

I am. Yes, there is a form on my website you can fill out and send me any questions or concerns you have.

Speaker 1: 1:03:39

Okay, fantastic. Well, that information will be below All, right. Well, thank you so much, petra, for sharing all this information and perspective. It's been very, very interesting and valuable conversation, so thanks again.

Speaker 2: 1:03:52

Thank you so much, Max. I appreciate it. Thank you.