Tamsyn and Olivia are back this week with a bitesize recap of one of our most unexpected topics from episode 42 - sheep therapy?!
This week we cover the surprisingly profound and transformative power of sheep therapy from our episode with Emma Redman and Pippa Ashton of Ewe Talks. This episode also explores how unexpected breakthroughs in therapy can occur outside traditional settings and the importance of creative thinking and open-mindedness in addressing the unique needs of neurodiverse children or those who have experienced trauma.
We talk the power of nature, and how integrating sheep therapy into activities like gardening or nature walks increases dopamine, leaving children more emotionally regulated and comfortable without even realizing the therapeutic benefits. Plus, we highlight the practical and cost-effective advantages of incorporating these therapeutic tools within schools, fostering a more engaged and supported student community. Listen in to understand how something as simple as interacting with sheep can make a profound difference in mental and emotional well-being.
Tamsyn and Olivia are back this week with a bitesize recap of one of our most unexpected topics from episode 42 - sheep therapy?!
This week we cover the surprisingly profound and transformative power of sheep therapy from our episode with Emma Redman and Pippa Ashton of Ewe Talks. This episode also explores how unexpected breakthroughs in therapy can occur outside traditional settings and the importance of creative thinking and open-mindedness in addressing the unique needs of neurodiverse children or those who have experienced trauma.
We talk the power of nature, and how integrating sheep therapy into activities like gardening or nature walks increases dopamine, leaving children more emotionally regulated and comfortable without even realizing the therapeutic benefits. Plus, we highlight the practical and cost-effective advantages of incorporating these therapeutic tools within schools, fostering a more engaged and supported student community. Listen in to understand how something as simple as interacting with sheep can make a profound difference in mental and emotional well-being.
www.sendparenting.com
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Welcome to this special BiteSide episode of the Send Parenting podcast.
Speaker 1:
In this episode, tamsen will be co-hosting with me as we discuss and summarize episode 42 with Emma Redman and Pippa Ashton, founders of the not-for-profit Ewe Talks, which harnesses the powers of animals or should I rather say sheep and use them for therapy to help their clients.
Speaker 1:
They provide a relaxed and open environment where their clients, including neurodiverse children, can find hope, self-belief and the power of being present in the moment. As we are embarking on the summer months ahead, I think it's a great episode to revisit the power of outdoors and the animals we can meet there. Tamsen and I will discuss in this episode how spending time in nature can significantly benefit both our mental and physical wellbeing, not only for our children, but for ourselves as well. Listen on. Welcome, tamsen, and thank you for coming to co-host this Bite Size episode looking at the alternative therapy of utilizing sheep, which is not something when people think therapy that comes immediately to mind using a sheep. But I was really impressed in episode 42, where Emma Redman and Pippa Ashton described all the things they do with sheep and how they focus on how calming sheep are and how, being in an outdoor environment for neurodiverse children or people struggling with mental anxiety or mental well-being, how impactful a sheep can be. I almost said sheeps, but sheep can be.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it was a fascinating. It was just fascinating to listen to and it shows that you just have to take your passion and do something positive with it. I thought it was what I. I found it all made sense.
Speaker 1:
So because sheep have got that fight flight or flight mode intrinsically, actually it requires you to be calm, to be around them yeah, so just their very nature encourages children to stay calm, and and that makes so- much sense and the children do it um without thinking you know it, just it it. You know, it just happens naturally.
Speaker 2:
I thought was really interesting yeah, and and also it made me think, you know, of all those that armor that we put on ourselves and took me back to a story, um, that you told about your daughter with her doll and she felt conscious and you were saying you need to own it, and they talked about a boy that wouldn't leave his house and so he met the sheep in the garden and then they walked the sheep locally and I love that they did that. You know how many. For me it was like fab, great transition tool, whereas, you know, outside of the neurotypical world people think, oh, my goodness, they're walking a sheep, but it shows that when you're in that world, you let go of your inhibitions.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and now he's going to the farm and actually, you know, wants to go and see the sheep. So I mean, what a progression from not leaving the house to wanting to go to a farm and see the sheep. You know, it's, you know.
Speaker 2:
And also using the sheep as a tool to transition into new schools. Yeah, you know there was one example they gave of that and actually the sheep is the consistent force in their life, without it being the parent, without it being an adult. Actually, if this nervous sheep is okay, then I'm going to be okay. It was just joyful. It was joyful to listen to and how we fall upon these things in life. Know, yeah, who would have thought you know? I'm sure they didn't leave university and say do you know what we're gonna do?
Speaker 1:
and that also makes you think you know what. You don't know what careers are out there for our children either. You know what I mean, because anything is possible. And uh, you know, I met I'm. They were actually at the fair at my daughter's school. That's how I and I, you know, the longest line at the fair was for the sheep. Yeah, that's what everyone wanted to go see was the sheep, and I also thought it was really. You know, I talk a lot about, um, the importance of dopamine and that sheep can actually stimulate your dopamine, and I've done a little bit of research into cause. I was like you know ADHD, you know that dopamine is, or at least I knew that dopamine is an issue and that there's not enough of it circulating around and there's some difficulty with the transport. So I was like, what about other neurodiverse conditions? Is dopamine an issue there? And actually across the board dyslexia, autism all of them have a different etiology of dopamine dysfunction, but it's a key similar factor and the fact that sheep actually boost your dopamine is remarkable.
Speaker 2:
And that they're a flock, you know. So I like the concept of it being a flock because I think for a lot of neurodiversity, whatever condition is within there, it's kind of that small group or one-to-one or. But to actually be around lots, whether it be sheep, whether it be people, is a really, it's really important because it they learn that numbers aren't necessarily scary yeah, and it, it, uh, if the.
Speaker 1:
I like the way you described that if the sheep can do it, so can I. You know, yeah, kind of empowers them. And then the benefit of being out in nature, you know, just being outside, and how that improves all of your happy hormones as well. I actually was quite shocked at how there was such a huge what was it?
Speaker 2:
I can't even one third, well, 70% they were saying of people don't have access to the outside.
Speaker 1:
I couldn't believe that.
Speaker 2:
I could not believe that. It's shocking and also I think, even going back to COVID, that became really clear. You know that people didn't have that access to the outside space and also I think, certainly for my son and from my experience working with children, it can be really unstructured times, can be really difficult. So even if you can get them outside, what do I do? What do I do when I'm outside? It's all those that uncertainty, whereas actually I'm going to be outside and I know what to do because I'm going to be with the sheep. So it gives them a purpose. And it made me think you know school, you know animals have to be within schools. That's got to be. We talk about the solution, you know what is the solution, but animals can be a huge part of that solution. So many children have written into their EACPs that they need full support during unstructured times. No-transcript.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I mean you look at therapy dogs and you look how you know how much benefit they bring to an individual and also you know I've known of children with autism who've gone to school with a therapy dog. I've actually tried to get the autism dog onto the podcast but they don't respond. They won't respond to me. They keep asking me if I want a dog. I'm like I don't want a dog, I want to talk to you.
Speaker 1:
But it also helps with the social, because people want to pet the dog and so that. But it's not. It's kind of slightly removed from the child because they're focusing on the dog. So it really helps with social interactions and that confidence in terms of you've got your buddy with you at all times and you know it doesn't have to be a dog, it doesn't have to be a sheep, it could be a rabbit, it could be a cat. I know at my daughter's school they have a dog that comes in every day and because some kids don't want to go to school, you know the dog is outside and so there's Bix in the morning and you can go pet him and it makes a big difference.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it does Same as my son's school, and I think, with regard to animals, they're not asking anything from you and I think that's also really significant. But I think what came across to me, what, what there were there are quite a few things that came across to me, um, but the one, the main thing, was the magic that happens. The magic and the breakthrough that can happen when you are in that position where you think, actually my son won't leave the house or my daughter won't go to school, that actually there's always a way and it isn't a case of it doesn't have to jump from, they won't go to school. Therefore, let's see if they'll go for two hours, and it can be. Let's make them comfortable with actually being outside the home Because, again talked about this before, what they're saying is the problem is very rarely the problem.
Speaker 2:
So is it that they don't want to school, don't want to go to school? Is it the school's awful or is it just so safe to be at home? That the alternative is different, is too different. So actually I thought what they the sheep therapy, what that really brought home to me was there's always a way forward. There's always a way forward, not necessarily a complete solution. So for that boy that left his house into the garden, into the, the environment and now onto the farm, if you'd asked his parents, probably six months before, they would have been at their wits end.
Speaker 1:
Or if you'd asked them do you think a sheep can solve this problem?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, exactly. But I think what it shows us is we have to be many things and we've talked about that we have to be doctors, we have to be detectives, we have to be all those things, but the tapping the sheep therapy tells me we have to be open-minded, have to look at that and think, well, let's see if that will work for my child.
Speaker 1:
I think that's a really great point, tamzin, because I think you know a lot of the parenting advice, a lot of the popularized beliefs out there don't work for our children, you know, and you know you have to find what works for your child and sometimes that really is thinking outside of the box. And luckily neurodiverse people like Emma and Pippa, you know, shared their neurodiversity as well. They're thinking outside of the box and they're thinking of what can, what can change things so that it's not so, that it's so different that it becomes a therapy without even realizing it's a therapy. You know it's not going to touch the school poll to show that. You've been there every day, as Heidi Mavere did, you know, told us about in her podcast. You know it's not doing that. It's actually an enjoyable thing that the child's engaged with. That's having a knock-on effect in terms of their emotions and in terms of their ability to do things that they don't even realize it's happening.
Speaker 2:
That's right. And again, that ripple effect you know, so you saw them at your daughter's school. You've now done a podcast. I wonder how many people from there will say that sounds fantastic for my setting, you know, and it also made me really think about I work with more and more children now with trauma as a as a primary need, and I think how amazing, how amazing for those children would that be. And there's many more trauma informed schools now, so I think there's a huge place for sheep.
Speaker 1:
And it's it's actually quite cost effective. You know what I mean. They're not. They're not, it's, you know, compared to just like going to see a therapist or having a coach, it's actually it's. It's a cost-effective, it's, you know, model. It's not that, you know, it's, it's something that you could afford to do.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and I was thinking my in my son's school they've actually raised money and bought in something called learning space into into school so the boys can access normally for learning space. You have to um, it comes under cams, you have to leave the school site so you miss school and all those kind of things and they've bought. They've bought learning space. They've bought learning space into the school. But we're having a conversation the other day and he was. They were saying the leadership team was saying it's still not enough. You know there's still children above that threshold. And I find myself saying how about we buy a flock of sheep? And they're like what? Listen to this podcast and it's those kind of things, isn't it? It's about being self-sufficient as a school, particularly special schools, where you think this is a tool that can be used over and over and over again. It's not going to hurt anyone and actually, in all these unstructured times where children don't know what to do, they can take care of the animals and you know it's something to look forward to school for.
Speaker 1:
You might hate every single thing about school, but you're really looking forward to brushing the sheep today and I know my daughter does that with the dog at school because she's not enjoying secondary school, even though she's in a specialist school. And, to your point, I'm sitting there thinking I've worked so hard to get you in this wonderful place. Why aren't you enjoying it?
Speaker 2:
But she's not, because it's a struggle Having sheep there or having, I also think, gardening the podcast with Anya as well, about having gardening during breaks Things that are outdoors, that are giving children something to do and a different focus than just school or having to be socially interacting you know, yeah, and it's about having those skills to be life ready, not just school ready, and knowing how to regulate yourself as an adult gardening or reading, or you know, in my school I had a little girl that came and she loved school and then we went through three months maybe where she cried every morning and she couldn't tell me why. So in the end I you know, her parents think she's fine until we pull into the drive, and so I took her outside and I said what happens? What happens when you, when you come here? And she said the horses never are here. So we've never had horses.
Speaker 2:
Anyway, the longer, the shorter it is. I'd had a bin store built that looked like stables, very narrow stables. So when we built the bin store she thought that we were going to fill them with horses. So every day she arrived and hoped there would be three heads coming out of the three bin stores. But it made me think, you know, no, I'm not going to get horses, but we absolutely need animals because, because there's children and animals have such an affinity.
Speaker 1:
And, and, and, and. From a medical perspective, it they do so much for us, they do so much in terms of self-reliance I mean for myself like my dog is my go-to if I'm upset. A cuddle with my dog is, you know, worth years on the therapy couch.
Speaker 2:
They don't need anything back. It's about not, they don't require any. It's unconditional, isn't it? Absolutely unconditional? You don't ever feel inadequate around an animal.
Speaker 1:
Well, I, you know. I don't know really what Emma and Pippa's key takeaways were. There are three. There are three. There are three tips that they ended with, but they said so much during the podcast. What three tips would you say were their top three?
Speaker 2:
So the top three. I thought what came across to me was that we are all equal in communication. You know, when it comes to communicating with animals, there is, we are. You know, whether you've got a child that's verbal, non-verb wheelchair, with a terminal illness or completely what um neurotypical for from the world of, from the eyes of animals, we are all equal and I think that's beautiful isn't it empowering.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so I think that came across, um, I I loved their, um, all their figures that one in seven people in the world have ADHD and can change the world. I thought, and actually I think we all can change the corner of our worlds and that's what they were showing with their sheep therapy. But the main fundamental point that I think came across was difficult behaviours are a reflection of safety and feeding love. So I think we all often feel my child hates me, I'm doing all these things and they hate me. No, they don't. They love you. They feel safe with you. Um, and in the same way with sheep, you know they can be dysregulated and the sheep aren't rejecting them. They just they just don't want any part of that right now, but the minute you regulate they're going to accept you again. So I think they were, it was, they were quite deep.
Speaker 1:
Their messages, yeah, about communication and about um feeling enough and I think you know as a parent, you can take a lot of um lessons from the sheep.
Speaker 2:
Really, yeah, you, I want one, I definitely want one.
Speaker 1:
And if it's a goat, it probably would mow your lawn as well. So that's something to think about, Tamsin.
Speaker 2:
Well, I look forward to hearing next about what animals you've got for your school. Yes, Next step I actually did see two llamas that needed homing the other day and I thought actually we have got the space to do that, but I just don't know if I want to go on weekends at the moment in the winter.
Speaker 1:
I wouldn't mind in the summer. That's the thing. You can't be a fair-weathered pet owner unfortunately. Yeah Well, thank you so much, tamsyn. It's been great and I would really recommend everyone check out the episode and also, you know, check out their website and find. You know if you're struggling with with your child and anxiety, you know they'll come to your door, so it is fabulous.
Speaker 2:
If you're on the PTA in a school, you know and you're organizing a fight, you know get them in.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely.
Speaker 2:
All right Thanks.
Speaker 1:
Timson. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. Please rate the podcast if you haven't already, and make sure you join us over the summer holidays for our pocket rocket size 10 minute podcast to help you navigate the summer holidays with our wonderfully wired children. Wishing you a calm start to the summer term, thank you.
