Graham Bartlett: Creating A City On Fire

From the relentless pulse of a detective's career to the imaginative realms of crime fiction, my first returning guest, Graham Bartlett invites us into the shadows where his experiences as a former detective fuse with his storytelling prowess. Our conversation unfurls the complexities of his latest novel, "City on Fire," with a focus on the emotional labor of writing from a place of authenticity. We tackle the obstacle course of accurately portraying intense scenes, steering clear of unnecessary details, and the propulsion that inciting incidents lend to a narrative's momentum.

We venture behind the curtain to see how detectives navigate their multifaceted lives, juggling the normalcy of everyday tasks with the extraordinary pressures of solving crimes. This episode is a must-listen for anyone enamored with the gritty reality of crime fiction and the artistry involved in bringing such stories to life from the perspective of an insider like Graham Bartlett.

City on Fire
After losing her sister to an overdose, Chief Superintendent Jo Howe is desperate to tackle the world of drugs that consumes the shadowy backstreets of Brighton. Operation Eradicate is her response but not everyone sees it as a positive development.

For self-made millionaire Sir Ben Parsons it is a threat to his business - his colossal empire relies on addicts who survive on Respite Pharmaceuticals’ substitute drugs. With connections in the highest levels of government, media and organised crime, Parsons unleashes a brutal counterattack on Howe.

How will she survive being caught in the line of fire?

Follow Graham Bartlett 

Transcript

Graham Bartlett: 0:00

Because I've had imposter syndrome all my life. You know I got promoted. I haven't had that seven times, six, seven times in the police. How many it is to get to Cheeps who contendant, and each time I thought they got it wrong.

Nadine Matheson: 0:11

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, first selling author,Nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well. I hope that you've had a good week and with this week's conversation I'm going straight into it, because this is the first time that I've had a returning guest through the conversation and the best thing about returning guests is that well, you all do know you're going to have a great conversation because you've spoken before, but also you will always discover something new. And this week my guest and returning guest is author Graham Bartlett.

Nadine Matheson: 0:48

Graham Bartlett is not just an author, he's a former detective and he's also a crime fiction and police advisor to authors and TV writers. So if you have a writing, a scene that involves, you know, police officers, bodies being discovered in the park, those sort of scenes, and you want to make sure that the police procedure is correct, graham's the person that you go to and he is so good and he's really a nice person too. So in this week's episode, graham Bartlett and I talk about his third novel, city on Fire, detaching yourself when writing intense and realistic scenes when you've been in those situations in real life, and how being a writer really is a job Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation.

Graham Bartlett: 1:40

Graham Bartlett. Welcome to the conversation. Thank you very much. Thanks for inviting me. Invited me back.

Nadine Matheson: 1:46

I should say Graham Bartlett's going to say you have the honour of being my first, it's like, but you have the honour of being my first repeat guest Is that what you get.

Graham Bartlett: 1:58

Yeah, I'll take that I really am. I didn't realise that.

Nadine Matheson: 2:04

You are. So we do things a little bit differently because you know I don't have to ask you the four questions at the end. Well, you get a different set of four questions.

Graham Bartlett: 2:11

Oh dear, which you've probably done this all before oh yeah, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 2:14

I didn't tell you, it'd be a nice surprise. They're not bad. You know they're not bad. My first question for you, because you know I've got the proof copy of your book.

Nadine Matheson: 2:23

I don't know why I'm asking that we don't say the video, but I've got the proof copy of City on Fire and it says like what do you call it? The tag line that says on the front it's time to discover why Graham Bartlett is the crime writer's crime writer. So I was thinking about this last night. Who do you go to for advice? Because we come to you if we have.

Graham Bartlett: 2:44

Yeah, I go to loads of people. I go to people like you to actually do business of writing and stuff like that. But also on things that I'm not an expert in. I mean, I'm not an expert in everything in policing, so I'm definitely not an expert in other streams as well. So you know, for example, on this book, I really wanted to show Joe Howe's the impact of the trauma Joe Howe had been through in the first two books and Bad for Good and Force of Hate, and then what I put her through in City on Fire. So I wanted to go to I spoke to two clinical psychologists, philip Priest and Chris Merritt.

Graham Bartlett: 3:29

I spoke to them about how, what sort of reaction would Joe have to kind of the dreadful things I put her through? I didn't want it to be a PCSE story or anything like that. I just wanted to have kind of like snippets of her just struggling a little bit. And so I go to them. I go to senior, ex-senior women officers about what it's like to be a woman at the senior level in the police, because obviously you know I was at senior level but not as a woman Firearms experts, munitions experts. I go to them. I'll go to anyone really, but where I'm not sure that I've got all of the knowledge that I need. I don't kind of, you know, I don't overdo the research because it's just fiction, but if I haven't got the knowledge that I need, then I'll find someone that has.

Nadine Matheson: 4:19

I think you can tell when someone's overdone it with the research in there. But definitely, yeah, it seems to be like it's like a determination to show you. This is everything I've learned. I want to put everything I learned in the book and you're reading it. Sometimes it can. It's like you're reading the recipe Like step by step by step. You're like no. I don't want this Like where's the story?

Graham Bartlett: 4:44

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly, exactly. And the, you know the research is only there to shore up the story and to shore up the characters. You know it's not there. As you say, it's an exposition of all my newfound knowledge. It's there for to serve the story and the characters, nothing else. Yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 5:01

Do you ever get frustrated, though, because when you've done like a good bit of research and you've gone down this rabbit hole and you've learned things, and then you haven't used any of it?

Graham Bartlett: 5:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And sometimes I treat myself by putting it in the first draft and know that I'm going to take it all out again in the second or third draft. Just just say that I've written it down, I've got out of my system.

Nadine Matheson: 5:27

You know, like I've seen writing advice, you know they tell us to kill our darlings. So we have amazing scenes that'll be right, or just amazing chapters, but they don't work, so you remove them. And then some advice is that you should keep it in a folder on your desktop to use it again. Have you ever done that and have you ever used your stuff?

Graham Bartlett: 5:45

100%. Yeah, I had a scene in Bad for Good which I really loved I'm not going to tell you what the scene is, because you'll realise why in a minute and I really loved writing the scene. It was a very high octane action scene. It kind of drew on a lot of police kind of dialogue and culture and it was kind of you know, it was a bit of a it was fast cars in it, there was violence in it and all sorts of things.

Graham Bartlett: 6:12

But Bad for Good when I first wrote it was far too long and I had to cut out a whole load of storylines and characters because it was. You know, I've just kind of got mad with it. So I had to cut this scene out because I had to cut the characters that were involved in the scene. So I did as you say, I put it away. I used Scrivener, so I just kind of cut it out of, out of it into the notes section of Scrivener and I'm just I'll go back to that and I've actually reused it in City on Fire I. You know, different characters, different outcome, but the but the action side of it is is is very much as as it was in Bad for Good and I'll just feel, yeah, it was worth it, but worth the effort.

Nadine Matheson: 6:53

You feel like it's a bit like you feel like a saviour, because I felt that with one of my characters who wasn't in the Jigsaw man but I've said this before he'd been there from the very beginning. His name was DC Clark and he'd been there from the very first draft, like very early on, and even like he makes an early appearance on the riverbank and I really liked him. So imagine you've gone for like three or four drafts of writing this novel, dc Clark being present all throughout, and then I think I've got my first set of structural edits and the editor said yeah, he got, he has to go. You got too many characters. I like DC Clark. He felt like a friend, so I always kept him in the back of my mind. I'm going to bring him back somehow.

Nadine Matheson: 7:34

And then I'm going back to the binding room, he's got a little cameo. It's very nice to read that.

Graham Bartlett: 7:41

I'll have to reread that because I've read the binding. I've actually read it and I've and I've listened to it. So I've actually read it twice. At least twice I'll have to go back and find him, Definitely.

Nadine Matheson: 7:52

Yeah, I'll tell you, I'll tell you where, where he makes the parents. But yeah, I had my moment of like, I've saved you, I've brought you back, so I'm going to. We're going to talk about city city on fire, which is like your third book in his interview, but I'm going to try and do it in a way where I'm not revealing any spoilers, because I want people to enjoy it. Didn't they read this?

Graham Bartlett: 8:14

but anyway, my memory is so bad I can't remember it. I'm not going to give you these words.

Nadine Matheson: 8:19

It's a little terrible, though. When you do write a book and you spend so long working on a book and then it's literally as soon as it's taken away from you and it's gone to your publishers, you know it's going to be, it's going to be published. It's that you kind of lose that attachment to it. You kind of forgotten what characters did, what subplots were People ask you questions. You're like, did they?

Graham Bartlett: 8:43

Somebody did that. They asked me a library talk on force of hate. They asked me why I decided to write a scene in a particular town. And I looked. I looked, she said yeah, this happened.

Nadine Matheson: 8:58

And I went oh yeah, I had that. Someone asked me about a character called Carol in the Jigsaw man and it's like I can't believe, like what happened to her. And I was sitting there thinking, who's Carol? I don't know a Carol, is there a Carol in the Jigsaw man?

Graham Bartlett: 9:13

And then after a while I thought oh yeah, it's a Carol, that Carol yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 9:19

So I was going to ask you so to see and find your third book. So what was that experience for you like? So we've done. The first book, you know in the debut is always your, I think you know that's the one you kind of have freedom with. The second one, they say, is your second album syndrome. But what's that third book? What was that like for you?

Graham Bartlett: 9:38

Yeah, I mean I think it was. It was sort of second album syndrome on speed really, was you know? Because people really like bad for good and force of hate, I'm thinking, oh my God, yeah, I don't think I'd be able to get one book out with decent comments. I have two now to come up with a third. So I was very anxious about my writing and about the consistency of the characters and the narrative and that sort of thing.

Graham Bartlett: 10:10

The story itself I was quite happy with because the story is based on some very, very loosely based on some real experiences that I had. So the story was fine but it was actually trying to keep the characters kind of moving forward, trying to keep the people who said they like the tightness of my prose and the action and that sort of thing, so trying to keep all that going as well. And I kind of never believe that my books are any good until my editor tells me that she likes them or my agent tells me that he likes them and people start feeding back on them. I've just got this kind of imposter syndrome. So it's really really hard and I think the benefit was because I didn't know the characters so well. So that helped me through and, of course, the story, as I say, was based on events that really happened in a very loose way.

Nadine Matheson: 11:07

Yeah, because I wanted to ask you about there's a set. I'm trying to do this without giving away spoilers. There's a scene that happened very early on, with one of the police officers being attacked. I think it's the first one.

Nadine Matheson: 11:21

The first attack and guys, and it's so vivid because I was reading it and I remember, because I was on my sofa reading this book and I came to the scene and I knew what was. I kind of knew how it was going to play out, but then every single moment of it felt as though I was there on the pavement. So I want to ask you, as a ex-police officer you know top level how was it for you like going into those moments and writing those scenes? Did you have to detach yourself from it? Were you able to?

Graham Bartlett: 11:54

Yeah, well, in a certain way to detach myself. I mean, I know what Steve was talking about now, but that isn't. That is fiction. I mean that hasn't happened. But I've been in those situations where it could have happened, where things change literally at a heartbeat. Everything seems to be fine and then something will happen or somebody will show up and everything absolutely flips on his head and things can get quite dangerous.

Graham Bartlett: 12:26

But I really wanted to get an utterance of the same as you now not reveal too much. I really wanted to get the emotive side out of it. I didn't want it just to be about gore and violence and death. I wanted the emotive side to come out, because somebody else in that scene has got a kind of very hidden emotional attachment to the person that dies. And it's very much about what would I feel? How would I react to that? I would be angry, I would be wanting to stop it, I'd be devastated, I'd feel like I'd let the person down, I'd had survivors, I'd be at all of those sorts of things. And I wanted to try and condense those really into that scene, so that on the reader, because is it the inciting incident? It might be the inciting incident, probably is, but for the reader. That scene needs to be powerful enough to take the reader through to the rest of the story.

Nadine Matheson: 13:33

Yeah, I think it is. I think it is, though, because you know what you were saying earlier, it's not about having the gore in there, and that's always, and that's always, surprisingly, how I feel when I'm writing my books. I don't just want it to be good. I know it sounds really good.

Graham Bartlett: 13:50

The chocolate is up and eating them in the tens. Yeah, there is that. Oh my God, I do do that.

Nadine Matheson: 13:54

It's not gratuitous violence, it's not blood and guts on every page, and I think that's what you did with that scene, is that you get it's not necessarily seeing the violence of it, even though it's happened, but that violence is like a very short moment, but it's the emotion that surrounds it and the follow on from there, yeah, and that's what I wanted to do, because that character obviously the one who survives is very, very important and I want the reader to kind of really be with him as the story moves forward, because for reasons that become clear later on, yeah, so you never questioned yourself when you was writing those scenes and it's so odd, trying to talk about it without talking about it but you never questioned yourself when writing those scenes and scenes that followed later on.

Nadine Matheson: 14:52

Bearing in mind, if I do, I'm just doing it as a you know, my own experiences with crime is as a criminal lawyer, but on the other side, but you're doing it from inside the walls.

Graham Bartlett: 15:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I always, you know, I always try and approach my writing as a writer, not as a former police officer, but because of my experiences and you'll be the same in your previous world but because of my experiences, I'm able to add that authentic spice of policing, be it dialogue, be it the way people reacted, certain situations, be it hierarchies or anything like that. You know it's, you know, but I try and approach it as a writer. You know, at the end of the day, I'm writing a story. I'm, you know, I'm making, making stuff up, as many of us say, and I need it to make, to need the readers to be, to be invested enough to be able to continue, to continue reading. That, and part of what I bring to it and other writers bring you know from their previous worlds, is that dimension of lived experience.

Nadine Matheson: 16:02

Yeah, I mean, I think when I do, sometimes I'm like no, I've probably gone too far.

Graham Bartlett: 16:07

Then I have to talk myself out of that Really you have to see your first draft. Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I mean there was. There was a scene in one of the drafts of force of hate which was, I mean it was sexual violence in that scene, and actually it was.

Graham Bartlett: 16:28

It was another author, julia Crouch, who read an earlier draft and she said she said, you know, can you do you have to have that on the page, can it be not be more powerful off the page and the impact of it so the reader fills in the gaps. And that's what I did. So on that one, I thought because I wanted to, you know, I wanted to show you the evil of the people that perpetrated this, and she said, quite rightly, she said you don't, you don't need to go into that level of detail, you might put some people off, but going with force of hate, with the racism, I mean there's overt racism in force of hate and that's there for a reason because it's about racism. So you know, I didn't feel I went over the top there.

Nadine Matheson: 17:11

Did you ever? You know your main protagonist is Jo Did you ever think of writing, of not writing in her point of view, of making someone both be making a male character the protagonist when you first met him?

Graham Bartlett: 17:26

Yeah, I mean, when I was first thinking about the book, about the series, rather, I was kind of thinking, well, I don't want to make this autobiographical, because Jo is doing the job that I used to do, and you know I was a you know it's a debut writer then and kind of really finding my way and I thought, well, one of the ways of doing that would be to make her a woman and really really trying to sort of get the feminine side across, as opposed to just kind of, you know, for one of a belly rich profession, putting a blade in a skirt, you know.

Graham Bartlett: 18:00

But so I I decided that that would be a good, you know, that would be a way to do it. And once I made that decision and did the research around, as I said earlier, what it was like for women to be in that role, to reach that role, the you know the pressures and the experiences they have, both internally and from outside. You know from colleagues and family and friends, and you know male and female, one side kind of decided that's where I was going to take it. There's no way I was going to go back, because I think she's far more interesting as a woman than she is as a man. A man would be.

Nadine Matheson: 18:38

Yeah, she's got that conflict. She's got that conflict that Henley has. You know that family conflict except her husband's a lot, nicer.

Graham Bartlett: 18:47

Well, yeah, I mean, you know Henley is really, I mean, she really does go through it, doesn't she? She's, you know, he tells her to leave the job and you know, thought it wasn't going to be like this. When you're back to work and all of that, you know she really does have to, you know, have huge struggles. I think Joe's struggles come more internally and she kind of she never feels that she's a good enough mom, good enough wife, a good enough police officer, you know, whatever role she's doing at a particular time, she doesn't think she's doing the other roles well enough, and that's what kind of beats her up.

Nadine Matheson: 19:26

You know when you was working sounds really I don't know what to say. When you were doing the force when you was acting yeah, when you was acting, because you know people, I felt bad saying that, because people think that you're a writer. They don't think that you're actually working.

Graham Bartlett: 19:42

Oh no, I've had these conversations over Christmas. I've got a job, you know.

Nadine Matheson: 19:47

The amount of times I've said no, I do have a job like. My job is being a writer. That is my job. So in your previous job, the horror phase did you without you disclosing like personal stuff? But did you ever have officers female officers come to you and express that insecurity, you know, struggling that work-life balance, or do you think they just kept that to themselves and didn't they?

Graham Bartlett: 20:11

Yeah, no, I did. You know I used to have particularly those that were looking for promotion. They would come to me and kind of say you know, I'd love to, you know I'd love to go for your rank but you know I can't really. You know I can't do this, I can't work part-time, doing that, I can't. And we'd have like conversations about what. You know, what's the difference? You know, why do you feel you can't do it? You know if you need to work, you know, if one of you or your partner needs to work part-time, why is it different to you? You know, why are you the one that's having to sacrifice your career?

Graham Bartlett: 20:53

And this kind of one example actually was around whether somebody felt they were operationally competent to move into a new role on promotion. And she said to me, she said, oh, it was what we used to call traffic roads policing, as they called it. Oh, I've never been on traffic before, never been on roads policing. You know, I don't really know what it's all about, so I don't really think I can take the job. And I said, well, you know the chances are you're. You know, when you get promoted you are going to go into a job that is different from one you've done before. And the reason people are putting you in that job or wanting to do that job is because they know you can do it. You know you've got the leadership skills, you've got the. You know, you've got the drive, you're intelligent and you know you can do it.

Graham Bartlett: 21:50

And I said I remember saying to her I said you know, if I was talking to a bloke they wouldn't be telling me this, they'd be going oh yeah, just I learned all the you know the cars and the fast driving stuff. But I've got the ability to run the team and you know, and to deal with the issues and to work the partners and that sort of thing. And I said you've got all of that. You just need to like we all do when we move to a new job just learn the stuff. You've got skills, you just need to learn the stuff.

Graham Bartlett: 22:17

And I mean she did it. I'm not sure she completely bought into my my very basic persuasive technique, but she did take the job and she did the book, she was excellent at it. But blokes blokes are far more likely, I think, to think, oh, I'll be fine, I'll do it anyway. And women feel they've got to have you know they've got to have the whole package before they'll try something new. Yeah, generally, and I think that that's because of culture and it's because of experience and you know, it's because of you know maybe some feedback and some you know some the way they've been treated previously in the job.

Nadine Matheson: 22:55

Yeah, and it's one. It's, you know, it's not just exclusive to you know, being in the police force, I remember the first time I was asked to represent someone on a murder it wasn't, it was an arrest and my boss said to me, yeah, we got this murder case Like off you go, it's in a police station. And I was like what are you talking about that would represent someone for murder? Because you know, in your head, you built it up to you know that's that's like the number one most serious offense. But it's like you're saying I have all the skills.

Nadine Matheson: 23:27

I've been doing the job for years at that point Like I have all the skills and more than capable of representing someone for murder. But you, you know, you second guess yourself. You feel like you need to have qualified all your experience in a particular way, even though you do have the experience. And I remember my boss said to me. He said to me look, it's just a GBH gone wrong. It's like, just look at it that way. Well, that's it, isn't it.

Graham Bartlett: 23:51

That is it. You know it was it.

Nadine Matheson: 23:52

Yeah.

Graham Bartlett: 23:53

And once you did that, you kicked. You know the principles of defending somebody for murder are the same as defending somebody for, you know, for an assault or even a shot. You know the principles are still the same. You know your skills, the skills that you'll need are the same. You know, obviously, for the person you know to your client, the stakes are a lot higher. And you know, and that's what you have to. You know, you have to be, you know, be aware of. But actually you know the law doesn't differentiate, like the police and criminal evidence act doesn't differentiate between how solicitors will represent murder suspects and shot-mitting suspects. So it's the same.

Nadine Matheson: 24:34

It's exactly the same. You know, we were talking about Joe and her struggles being more internal.

Nadine Matheson: 24:41

Yeah, for example, about how she's going to do the job. And then you mentioned early on in the conversation, when I was asking you about this city on fire being offered. You mentioned the book and how it compared to one and two and you mentioned imposter syndrome. It surprised you that imposter syndrome could still be a thing for you when you're writing book three and you've had success and lots of amazing people have said lots of amazing things about your book.

Graham Bartlett: 25:06

I don't know, it didn't surprise me because I've had imposter syndrome all my life. You know I got promoted seven times, six, seven times in the police However many is to get to Chief Superintendent and each time I thought they got it wrong. You know I thought why they promoted me. You know, each time I got a new skill with a firearms commander, a political commander or being a senior investigator or whatever, every time I passed the qualifications for that I was thinking, you know they mixed me up with somebody else.

Nadine Matheson: 25:31

I've always had that.

Graham Bartlett: 25:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've always had that. So I know I would always have imposter syndrome around my writing, and you know there are lots of far more accomplished and better authors than me that suffer it too. And it's really heartening sometimes to listen to people you know festivals or privately, and go. You know, oh God, you know I'll get it found out in a minute. You know my next one, you know my. Once I published my 50th novel next year, I'll be found out then. Then they will come right. What's that? And it sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? It comes from other people, but to yourself, when you tell yourself it, it's the most obvious thing that you're going to get found out.

Nadine Matheson: 26:18

I think that's exactly what it is, because you know, we was talking before we started recording and I was saying how you know, getting down to start writing my book in the beginning of the year and I just found that first week was just hard work and whether it's worse than pulling teeth. It was worse than pulling teeth writing that first thousand words. But you do have that moment feeling of oh, now I'm going to be found out. Everyone's going to be, everyone's going to find out that I've basically been conning them. It's been a really big con, a really good con. Now my run is done.

Graham Bartlett: 26:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you know we were saying we're about. You know about how? I mean? I think I said something like you know, oh, I, you know, I. I get to a point in all my books where I just think, well, it doesn't matter that it's rubbish, because no one's going to read it anyway, because no one's going to publish it. So, you know, it doesn't matter how bad this first draft is. I should, we should say we're talking about first drafts here, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 27:17

First draft, not the finals thing.

Graham Bartlett: 27:19

Public works follow. Oh, it's perfect. Yeah, but you know, you're fabulously successful as a writer and and we're fabulously successful as a solicitor advocate, you know. And for me to hear you say that you've got a post to Sydney, you're just like what you just got, a. How could she? But you know, you take it to yourself and it's, it's logical, isn't it?

Nadine Matheson: 27:40

Yeah, and even as, as I solicited, as you said you, you know you do the job. I take the cases and you know the more, the longer you've been in the job, the more serious cases that you take on. So I'll be getting the serious cases. But every new case always felt like oh my God, should I be doing this? I don't think I should be doing this. You've been doing it for like 15, 60 or 18 years. At this point You're like I should not. Someone has made a mistake. I should not be standing here in the O'Bailey doing this fraud case.

Graham Bartlett: 28:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and I think, in some ways, I think it's quite healthy, isn't it? Because the opposite to it is arrogant. So when you become arrogant, you become complacent. And you know, in our, in our new careers, it's probably not the end of the world if we're arrogant and complacent. We're not, but in our previous careers you know people's lives, their liberty, would depend on us not being arrogant and not being complacent. You know, can you imagine if you were an arrogant complacence listener who, just you know, did, did half a job on a on your murder suspect, you know, and they ended up getting wrongfully convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment? It just, you know. It doesn't bear thinking about, does it?

Nadine Matheson: 28:57

No, the repercussions are just. It's God. It's funny you say that because you know, as we're talking, every what's in the news is the post office scandal, and I'd listen to a podcast about it, I think last night. That's 2023. So maybe 2022, I'd listen to a podcast on it. What happened to the sub post masters and my whole thing as a lawyer listening to what the post office felt to do?

Nadine Matheson: 29:23

is that there are lawyers involved, because they have their own internal legal department and there has to be such a degree of complacency, which there was, that led to the sub post masters not only just losing their jobs but losing their homes, you know, being having to go into bankruptcy, and then some even took their own lives. So that level of I get, I don't I put an emotionally, mentally on any level be happy with being just doing half a job, because there's repercussions.

Graham Bartlett: 29:57

Absolutely no.

Graham Bartlett: 29:58

I couldn't agree more and I think that's a really good example of complacency, confirmation bias, all those sorts of things where you know people lost you know, literally lost their lives and it's, you know it's one of the, you know, the biggest scandals this country has ever faced in terms of the criminal justice system.

Graham Bartlett: 30:16

You know the scale of it and you know, I mean, I watch quite a lot of these fly on the all documentaries with the police, fly the all documentaries and you always get this place in that the officers phoning with the Crown Prosecution Service for charging advice and they're always really, really annoyed when they don't get the charging advice.

Graham Bartlett: 30:36

So that and I kind of think, well, actually, all that, all that lawyer is doing is is, is is applying a degree of objective scrutiny over the evidence and you know, the officer is always very emotional, which is terrible for the victim. It is terrible for the victim and this person is a really bad person and they probably are a really bad person. But the lawyer has to has to be that check and balance that make sure that they're, you know, the right people are going to, are going to go to court and hopefully, from our perspective, get convicted. So you can't have them getting all kind of emotional about it and you know they need to be, you know they need to apply scrutiny and not be complacent and not be kind of swayed by the officer's emotions.

Nadine Matheson: 31:16

This is why I don't get involved in certain debates or conversations on social media the minute I see someone say I'm not a lawyer, but I have no experience. But and it's in regards- to.

Nadine Matheson: 31:27

I'm just using this as an example. What's saying specifically about this case, but saying it was in regards to the nurse. Let's be facing the talk about some legal yes, some legal direction that was made because they don't have that level of insight or understanding. There's no, there's absolutely no point in me getting involved in any conversational debate, because they won't hear what I have to say, speaking from experience. It's all about different lines, if that makes sense. Maybe, then the performative action of being outraged by something that you don't understand. Yeah, yeah.

Graham Bartlett: 32:04

No, I don't think you're right. No, I don't think you're right. No, because you're never going to be, you're never going to be anyone like that with logic and with reasoned argument and knowledge, because they're not. They're not driven by that. I think they're driven by by the emotion of it all, and these are very sad cases and, at the end of the day, the law and the system is there to make sure that the right people more often, well, in almost every case, the right people should be convicted, of course, and innocent people or people that the evidence doesn't support their conviction should be acquitted.

Nadine Matheson: 32:40

Yeah, Speaking of them like doing the right thing and scrutiny the character in your book, ben Campbell. Right Again, I'm no spoilers. When I'm reading your book, can I tell you what movie was in my head when I was reading?

Graham Bartlett: 32:57

The Seen on Fire.

Nadine Matheson: 32:58

Lee Marvin's quite blank, oh really.

Graham Bartlett: 33:01

Yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 33:02

Yeah, I think Mel Gibson did a reboot and it was his one called Payback. I think his work.

Nadine Matheson: 33:07

I've been sitting on that many months ago, yeah, so I just knew that Lee Marvin is just on this I don't know this vengeance train for basically for 90 minutes. I just felt this. I'm not saying that Ben Campbell was Lee Marvin character, but I just thought throughout. The one of the themes that I found very much like I know I'm talking about with books, like one of the themes in your novels, was this whole. It's kind of a play on retribution and revenge, but striking first.

Graham Bartlett: 33:38

Yeah, go on, say more. I'm in treatment. People tell me the themes in my book because I've written them.

Nadine Matheson: 33:45

No, I felt like, I just felt like there was a strong theme of its retribution and it's a strong theme of, you know, as I said, with Ben Campbell, I'm going to attack first to protect what I have.

Graham Bartlett: 33:58

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 33:59

Yeah. Yeah, what made you go that way.

Graham Bartlett: 34:03

Well, ben Campbell is sort of personifies greed, really. You know, he's kind of worked very hard to get to where he was and he's not going to sacrifice that for anything. There's also another side to him as well, because I didn't want his just to be about, I don't want his notes just to be about a mummy. So he's got a very he's got a very sick mother who needs treatment overseas and even though he's in he runs a pharmaceutical company he's not able to provide her the treatment here, which is something that really eats away at him. So he needs to be able to fund her treatment abroad. But it is about greed and power and it's about entitlement as well and you know the whole. I mean, it's not another spoiler to say you know Joe Howe. Joe Howe's sister died of a drugs overdose in a kind of squat in Brighton and it was that that made her realise that actually drugs, drug addiction, is an illness that needs treating and she will do all she can to not arrest her way out of the drugs problem but get people treated out of the drugs problem. So the drugs, the number of drug addicts and the kind of gravity of their addiction wanes, and of course for Ben Campbell, that's money out of his pocket because he relies on there being this huge well, not just in Brighton and Howe, but you kind of, you know, bring it all to Brighton and Howe but this huge body of addicts who rely on his new experimental opiate substitute, and so he needs to basically take drastic action against Joe and anyone involved in that to protect his bottom line. And that's, you know that, not the Ben Campbell bit. But that part of it is where the truth comes in.

Graham Bartlett: 35:54

You know I ran an operation not called Operation Eradicate but called Operation Reduction, brighton and Howe, which is all about getting people, drug addicted criminals, into treatment and basically helping them avoid the criminal justice system so that we could start reducing the numbers of drugs deaths, reducing the crime that was associated with drugs and getting people out of addiction. And it worked really, really well. And you know we, you know drug addicted crime fell by about 35% in the period we were running it. Drugs deaths went from 50 a year to about 12 a year. And you know, people were I think we I can't remember about 700 people put through treatment in about two years and you know, the vast majority of those came through and then the cuts came and it all kind of it all fell and things went back to where they were.

Graham Bartlett: 36:44

But you know that that was, you know, joe's motivations. Mine was about a friend of mine who, who was who I found out was a drug addicted burglar. And you know, we kind of grew up together and our lives were parallel and then he'd gone into, he had got some money Because he was in part of the comm boom, started partying, got into drugs, got into addictive drugs, started committing crime and was in and out of prison and I'd Gone in the police and and there's nothing To say that the part could have been differently we could have crossed, our parts could have crossed, and it would be me that would have been drug addicted. So that's what kind of drove me to treat drug addiction as a, as an illness, not as a, not as a crime. And that and Joe has the same motivation through the death of a sister.

Nadine Matheson: 37:30

I Was thinking like the saddest thing for me when I was practicing full-time as a slister was Would be the repeat clients. I hate calling them crying for you know repeat client.

Nadine Matheson: 37:41

I would have who were the drug addicts, and it was always endless thefts and endless that's because they're stealing to basically fund their drug, their drug habit. And I had two clients die on me, and it happened in my first year of qualification, which my boss at one point. I had four clients dying me in my first year, I know. My boss at one point said I've never heard of anyone this happened to any anyone at all, but I had to. They were.

Nadine Matheson: 38:08

There are drug addicts, though, and you know, lipline was like a merry-go-round commit thefts, get arrested, we go to court. I've regret them out, or get them if we get them out on the community order with rehab element attached to it, but then guaranteed maybe six months later back again. I'm getting the phone call and we're back in court, and a couple of them. They got remanded and the best treatment they had was when they was remanded into custody. But then they begged me for bail applications and then so we did the bail applications. Less than a month both of them were dead. I got a phone call from police.

Graham Bartlett: 38:41

Yeah clients.

Nadine Matheson: 38:44

My client had died.

Graham Bartlett: 38:45

And it's what I mean. It's one of the most dangerous times when, when people released from prison because you know they have had a degree of support not great, it's not great and certainly we want a short-term sentence on remark, it's not, you know, it's never gonna change everything but then you come out and you you're kind of you're back in the same networks. You know you're maybe there, you know you're not used to the strength of the drugs on the street and you know you you don't have the same support around your healthcare support and you know that it's one of the most dangerous times for addicts.

Nadine Matheson: 39:19

Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible getting the phone call and then also.

Graham Bartlett: 39:22

Yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 39:22

I don't know if you feel you know, if you had the same experience as a police officer. You know the regulars, so yeah, I think it used to them. But but you know them, you know their personalities and you kind of know who they are. In the absence of the drugs, mm-hmm. So to go through that, and yet you'll, you're with it, you've proved every step with them and then to get that phone call that drugs has basically taken them away, it's hard, yeah, yeah, it's hard not to feel something about that.

Graham Bartlett: 39:51

No, no, I think you know, if you're, if you're a human being, you're bound to you know, you know, and I, I, because I worked in Brighton for a different, different ranks, different roles for about 25 of my 30 years and you know I, I would, you know, I, there were people that I would dealt with when I was a young Police constable, detective constable, but when I was, when I came back in a different role, you know I was, we started dealing with their, their children, and you know, and, and then you, and then, and then you'd find out that the one that I dealt with when they were a kid, I just died. And you and you felt, you know, I just I felt for them. You know, because I just think, you know they, they're not Bad people per se. They've got, you know, a bad, you know a bad sort of gene. It's just their circumstances made them Couldn't, you know, fall on the wrong side of the law? And you know you have to feel for them. If you've got, you know, if you're human.

Nadine Matheson: 40:47

Yeah, you do. I'll say let's lighten it up a bit. Did you join right in Ben Campbell God for, like the villain of our pieces, the antagonists that are fun to write.

Graham Bartlett: 41:02

Yeah, no, I did. I did like right to you because I wanted him to have this, this kind of this, to these two sides, to his personality, this big kind of arrogant writ entitled I'm gonna swear them. But also I wanted him to be Because he's you know, he's got this sick mother. So I wanted him to be the kind of the doting son as well and I wanted to play, play both of those and I do play both of those off in the same scene sometimes, you know He'll go through me, the first, the first of my size.

Graham Bartlett: 41:39

Exactly, he's up there, you know he's. He's Tina Raffy's. You know he's kind of putting music on because she's got dementia and that's what brings her, and then then he's plotting people's murders downstairs about two minutes later.

Nadine Matheson: 41:54

I'm saying, when I came, the first one, we met his mum and it's pretty much like who is this? I thought, oh, it's Ben and his mum. I went, oh, this is nice. But then I knew what he'd done and then obviously what he then does later on.

Graham Bartlett: 42:09

She just come from. He's literally just come from something. And then is you know, he had to go clean his mum up.

Nadine Matheson: 42:17

Yeah, I love, I love those characters and I love those sort of scenarios when you can have like the banality of life I just same example, you know, just so like you've just gone off and got some milk and some eggs and you make breakfast for your kids and then in the next scene you're going off and Kind of like good father-ish, isn't it?

Graham Bartlett: 42:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love them. I love writing joe's kids in in in the gifts as well. They're kieran and leon, I just think they're. I love putting it. I love their dialogue. I love writing Like I'm so trouble with that. There's. There's a bit in there that I really enjoyed. You shouldn't laugh at your own jokes, but we're where. Um, he's telling his mum about his school friend, who he found wrestling with another lady in the bedroom and now he doesn't see his dad anymore. And like joe's like some of what's happened to the family, and so I mean joe's like trying to give a straight face. Is it like? Was daddy wrestling with another woman? Mommy? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what happened.

Nadine Matheson: 43:22

You need both moments because I think I think when you're writing police procedure, I think when you're writing police procedures, that you know it's not all just about the job. I think that's fine, but I, yeah, try and show with henley, you know they do which is actually that was always my intention when I when I started the first book.

Nadine Matheson: 43:39

You know they they do have a life and this stuff they go through on a daily basis. It has to. Whether it's a small way or a really large way, it's going to have some kind of impact on their family life.

Graham Bartlett: 43:50

Yeah, I mean, you do you, you do that really well. You do it with rematter as well. You know, and he's got he's got the. You know he's he's living away from, from his wife and and and you know it's a reality that sometimes you know some people write Right, right the police officers if the the murder they're investigating it's the most important thing to them in their life at that particular moment. It might not be. It might be they missed the mortgage payment, or you know they're their mum's in hospital, or you know they can't afford to get their car fixed or whatever like that, and and it it's all those sort of you know the day to day noise that everybody has that but you know, in the moment could be more important than the murder they're investigating and sound fred for it. I mean they work any less hard for it. It's not not everything Nice, yeah, it is yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 44:36

Yeah, it's no question that you're Okay. What do I call them? People who come to the, the growing Bartlett writing clinic. If they're like a popular I say a popular question that it's put to you in terms of Maybe like writing and procedurals.

Graham Bartlett: 44:57

So I suppose, one that that people ask quite a lot and it you know these are never. These are never dumb questions, because unless you worked in the field that you're asking the question about, how are you to know? But but it's, you know what, what happens. We know what happens when they've they finish working on that murder. What do they work on then? And it it's kind of it's this notion of there's only ever one job going on at any one time.

Graham Bartlett: 45:22

So, your, your detective, has only got that one murder to think about, and my answer is usually well, they'll, they're crack on with the other 12 that they, you know, are various different stages and, and it's just you know, it's almost as if they have this. You know, they have this body of people that are sitting around waiting and then a call comes oh, we've got a murder. And then they, they scurry around, but we'll get very intense around this murder, deal with it, and they go back to sit and waiting when actually it never stops, the demand never stops. They might have picked up a different murder Last week and they've happened to picked up this murder this week. So they're trying to juggle them all.

Graham Bartlett: 45:57

And it's just this, this whole kind of sense of you know, having to multitask and be Across so many different jobs at so many different levels. I mean, you know you, you know yourself, you know you could, you know you can have a case Just happened and this you know, you have this in your you're, you know when you're practicing, you can, and then another one is at the court of appeal. You know it's literally the whole spectrum of the criminal justice system, and, and, and. You're involved in at every step of the way on different cases.

Nadine Matheson: 46:25

Yeah, I could easily, and I think that it's true what you say in regards to, if you want to say police procedural, but also anything legal Bases, if you want to court like a legal thriller, there's this perception that the lawyer is just working on there, this one big case. This is the only case they have where reality is, and I was practicing full time. I've probably had more than 30 cases that we're all knowing, and there are cases that were in the police station, cases that just started in the magistrates court, cases that were now progressed to the crown court or in the middle of a trial, because you know, I've got barristers briefed on them, or cases I'm now have to do an appeal on. And it doesn't just stop because, oh, I've got a big, massive fraud coming now. Everything gets pushed to the side.

Nadine Matheson: 47:07

You know what in which I had in my head when you was talking about that? You know Argos, like back to Argos and you put your order and then just wait for your order to come down the slide. Hi, I'm watching the time. Time always flies when I'm doing these conversations, so I'm great. You know, with your series, would you ever Set your novels away from Brighton or have a completely new series, or you, or is that it?

Graham Bartlett: 47:40

Yeah, well, I'm, I'm, I've just started writing in here. I'm not saying I'm, you know, I'm not going to go back to Joe, but I've. I've started writing a new series which is not based in Brighton and it's and that's partly because I I've kind of taken right what you know to the extreme. So I'm writing about, you know, writing police proceduralism, the police. My lead character is the division commander Of a police division. I was a divisional commander of a police division. It's based in Brighton. I was in Brighton, you know.

Graham Bartlett: 48:07

Everything apart from gender is kind of right on my note. Yeah, so I I've created this. I can't say too much about it, but I've created this, this, or started writing what might be a trilogy based based in a fictional area and it's more global as well as there's scenes in various parts of the world too. And part of that is because I want to. You know, I want to sort of test myself and I want to kind of move away from procedures still crying, but I want to move away from procedural so I can test myself as a writer. But also also, I I don't want to be. I don't want people to think that's all I can do is, please, procedural if I want to, you know I want to. I want to show the readers that there is, you know there is different ways in which you know you can use your writing experience and your previous background To to write thrillers, which is this is more thriller.

Nadine Matheson: 49:01

But I definitely feel, because I'm writing book for Henley and I love writing Henley, so I'll just write Henley for as long as I can.

Graham Bartlett: 49:09

But also I want to write other things, because I don't.

Nadine Matheson: 49:12

It sounds very selfish, but I don't just want to be known for writing one particular type of book I need. Yeah there's a writer you. I think you should always be pushing yourself anyway. But if not, other worlds I want to explore Out there in the crime world.

Graham Bartlett: 49:28

Yeah, yeah, no, and I think you know, because it is such a broad genre that there are, you know, there are lots of opportunities and you know, and we have to challenge ourselves, don't we? But one thing I've done. I know I need to get ran to doing it, but I've been asked to write a short story for the first time and I'm that frightened some life out of me because I always write far too long and then pair back. But I'd be asked to write a short story and I I've done a how I'm going to do that.

Nadine Matheson: 49:55

I've done it a couple of times and every time I was asked to do it, I'm like I, I don't know. I'm like how, how do people write these short stories? My tendency is, my short story then turns into a novella because it just goes beyond the 5000 or 8000 word count that they've given you and you're like how am I supposed to tell a story? Yeah, in such a small space.

Graham Bartlett: 50:21

And then you realise how good songwriters are I know. Then you realise how good songwriters are Because they get a story into sort of four minutes Exactly and they repeat the chorus a few times.

Nadine Matheson: 50:36

I don't even. It's like two and a half minutes. No, I think. I definitely think it's a skill, but you know, you can learn it, you can do it.

Graham Bartlett: 50:44

I like to do it because I'm good at it.

Nadine Matheson: 50:48

I think sometimes it's just a matter of just throwing yourself in and then just seeing what happens.

Graham Bartlett: 50:52

And also, I think, if you've got.

Nadine Matheson: 50:54

My philosophy is that if you've got, it's easier to cut words than to find extra words to fill the space.

Graham Bartlett: 51:01

Yeah, well, that's certainly how I write. I deliberately write long, yeah, because I think it's better to pair back and just condense and home stuff than flab it out. Dorothy Coombson gave me that advice. I said I was getting safer and safer about work and I needed to get to this. And she's just don't worry about just writing it and then you can trim it back later.

Nadine Matheson: 51:28

Definitely. I think that's the best way. I know others will differ.

Graham Bartlett: 51:35

But for me.

Nadine Matheson: 51:35

I'd rather overwrite and then get rid of stuff, as opposed to underwriting and then having to find things to fill it with.

Graham Bartlett: 51:44

Yeah, because they're never going to be that good, are they? If you put in this wonderful sort of four-page description of a room that the killer walks into before he shoots somebody, it's kind of robbed a bit of action there, isn't it?

Nadine Matheson: 52:00

I'm writing this this morning. I was writing this scene in book four and basically it takes place in the therapist's office and I already know, as I've written 500 words, but I know I'm already going to cut those 500 words. Yeah, I've been describing the pain and the photograph.

Graham Bartlett: 52:17

I was not going to cut the cards.

Nadine Matheson: 52:19

I already know it's not going to make the cut, but I feel like I just had to write it just to get through it. If that makes sense, I need to describe the walls and the pain and the really broken spring in the sofa. I just need to write these things just to get me through.

Graham Bartlett: 52:35

Sometimes it's just you're just telling yourself that you know. So then you? Oh, now I know what this room's like. I've got an idea about what this room's like and you can. You know, you're on second draft. You can find nimble ways of saying that, don't you?

Nadine Matheson: 52:48

Yeah, exactly, but my editor will go. We don't need this, Right. Do you want to do a pitch for City on Fire before I ask you your questions?

Graham Bartlett: 53:00

Yeah. So City on Fire? Oh God, I know, yeah, I'd say no. If I said no, I'd definitely have to do it, I think. So City on Fire from 21st of March, published by Alison and Buzzby, is so I'm going to give you the kind of blurb of it, because the publishing has roasted far better than I'll ever be asked to. So, after losing assistance to an overdose, Chief Superintendent Joe Howe is desperate to tackle the world of drugs that consumes the shadowy back streets of Brighton. Operation eradicators are response, but not everyone sees it as a positive development. Billionaire Seben Campbell views it as a threat to his business. His colossal empire relies on addicts who survive on their substitute drugs With connections to the highest levels of government, being media and organised crime. Seben unleashes a brutal counterattack on Joe. The question is how will she survive being caught in the line of fire?

Nadine Matheson: 53:52

And it's so good I've read it. I think.

Graham Bartlett: 53:54

I've done a good job of not giving away any spoilers. I've done it right, haven't I? Yeah, I've done it right, I think.

Nadine Matheson: 54:02

Yes, I backed that bit on. When we can't talk about what happened, yeah, but can you tell me about it? But not tell me about it?

Graham Bartlett: 54:09

Yeah, Come on. I think it's good.

Nadine Matheson: 54:12

All right, I've got some questions for you, a lot different to my other question. You know the normal four because you're a repeat.

Graham Bartlett: 54:20

Okay, I'm a repeat. Yeah, Returning act, you're a repeat.

Nadine Matheson: 54:24

You're returning yeah, returning act, that's better, so plan it all. Plotter.

Graham Bartlett: 54:30

Oh, part and part. So I do plan, I use five act structure and I plan that. But literally I'm just, I'm literally putting in the kind of the waypoints of that. So I put in the inciting incident, when one changes to act, two midpoint twist, worst point, and all that and the ending. So I know, I kind of know what they're going to be, and then I convert that into a sort of two page summary and then I write it. But if I go back and look at that two page summary, a lot of that hasn't survived because I've found different ways of doing things. So I couldn't do this scene by scene planning but I have to have some kind of roadmap to go to.

Nadine Matheson: 55:13

Are you very linear? Are you in terms of? Are you beginning, middle and end when you're writing all one?

Graham Bartlett: 55:19

I used to be On the one I'm writing at the moment yeah, no, the one I'm writing at the moment I haven't been, and it's kind of something I'm trying, because if I get a scene in my head that I definitely want to include and I think it's going to be quite good, I want to write that and then lead to it and then write the lead up to that, rather than the other way around. So because the detail of that scene I won't really have nailed down until I've written it. So I might write that that might be kind of three course of the way into the book, and then I know I've got to head to that point in the way that I've now written that point.

Nadine Matheson: 55:55

Right, this is going to sound like an exam question, right, Because you know you said you do the five act structure. I do the three act structure when I plan. What are the extra two acts?

Graham Bartlett: 56:07

So all the so, acts two, three and four basically break your act two. So you have the inciting incident and then you have things going well during act two and then the turn of act two to act three. Things start to go on the wane. Then you have your midpoint it doesn't have to be a twist, but you're mid and then that then takes you into act four and act four. Things start going rapidly down and all it does is just break it down. So, john York you heard of John York, john York used to be a commissioning editor into the words it's his way of breaking down that act three. And what I find and people have different ways, you know you've acted three. It helps avoid soggy middles, saggy middles, soggy middles or saggy middles, soggy bottoms that bake up in there. It just helps keep, you know, keeping a structure in that middle section.

Nadine Matheson: 57:16

Okay. So what's harder to write for you, First draft or the synopsis?

Graham Bartlett: 57:21

The synopsis. Without a doubt, the synopsis. Is that the same for you?

Nadine Matheson: 57:27

I always call the synopsis pain. It's just pain, you're trying to condense this some say 100,000 word book, novel into what they want 200 pages, 500, something 5 to 800 words, and it's just pain as far as I'm concerned.

Graham Bartlett: 57:47

Yeah, and I agree, I completely agree with you. I just, you know, I always feel that I'm kind of leaving out the best bits when I've eventually finished this synopsis, I know. But I need to include that bit and you probably don't, but it's something that you know. I enjoy writing and my first drafts are just freedom. You know, I just kind of write. You know it can go anywhere on the first draft, so that's the kind of that's why I like the first drafts more. Well, you know, I really enjoy writing the first drafts but, yeah, the synopsis is so hard.

Nadine Matheson: 58:17

You have freedom, don't you? You have all freedom of your first draft. You can change your character's names, change location, change killers, change whatever you don't have that freedom with a synopsis because it's all done.

Graham Bartlett: 58:30

You're just trying to set it now and you know it's got to have impact as well, don't you? You know those two pages have got to. You know, absolutely. Grab someone by the throat and make them buy the book.

Nadine Matheson: 58:41

Yeah, my description of the therapist's office and the broken spring on the side of the book.

Graham Bartlett: 58:45

It's not going to do that.

Nadine Matheson: 58:48

It's not going to do that. So what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your writing career?

Graham Bartlett: 58:57

Right with freedom. I think we've used that term already, and this was really from Dr Coombson, who told me I mentioned her earlier, but I was advising her on some of her books and she would always ask me how my books were going. And I'd go oh I'm just going back and re-editing this and re-editing that, and she just said just write it, just write, just enjoy, write it, get to the end and then worry about the edit afterwards. And so that's what I do now and I find it more enjoyable, find it more productive and I think my books are better because of it.

Nadine Matheson: 59:30

Yeah, I think that's great advice. So finally and I feel like it's a bit unfair now, because you've written your series and you can write something new standalone or series- oh, do you know?

Graham Bartlett: 59:41

I've had these conversations with Jack Jordan quite a lot, because he writes a series every time, because the hardest bit of writing this new series is creating new characters, creating new worlds, creating new stories, new challenges With the series. You know, as you know, you know, you, but when you've written your first book, you know the characters that you want to keep in there. They're not fully formed, but they're formed and your world is formed and your, you know, your structures have formed and you know I said, jack, I could not, could not do what you do and just kind of every time just reinvent everything again. And he's the opposite. He said, well, I could, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have faith to be able to, to, to, to keep, you know, to keep the continuity of a series going. So it's horses and courses, I suppose what?

Nadine Matheson: 1:00:30

about you? What do?

Graham Bartlett: 1:00:30

you think?

Nadine Matheson: 1:00:32

Well, I like, see, I like the comfort of a series. He said everything's established Like before we. I need to stop saying like. But before we started talking and I was writing this scene and it started with Henley's Henley basically leaving. She's walking out of Greenwich train station but I know when she's going, I know she's going to the FCU building and I know that route. I know the world in which it inhabits, so everything's familiar and I'm just creating these new stories in these familiar places. But I was working on something new for last summer now and you know I found hard was finding new places where to put the characters.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:12

Yeah because it's a completely new thing. I'm like, well, I can't put them in Greenwich. I've already done Greenwich in Henley, I need to put them somewhere new. And it's like, well, where am I going to put them? Where are they going to live? And the story is kind of fine, but just finding new places for them to go yeah, yeah, no, I could put them.

Graham Bartlett: 1:01:28

Yeah, because you've already. Yeah, because I bet you know Greenwich really well. So you, you kind of you've already, you've already used that. You can't, you can't know everything really well. No, no.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:40

So I've literally got like I've got Google Maps open in the corner and I'm like, okay, let me put them there, let this character to live in this place. And I'm like, well, I know I've gone on and lives up in Ealing, I can put them in Ealing, but I think that's been the struggle. Finding new places to live and commit their crimes.

Graham Bartlett: 1:02:01

Yeah, yeah, and, and, and, and, yeah, and I completely agree with you. So I'm having that with you. That's why I've got a fictitious place. But I keep telling us don't make it run, don't make it too bright, don't make it too bright.

Nadine Matheson: 1:02:12

Yeah, I'm like you can't stay south London, let's go across the river, but I'm like no.

Graham Bartlett: 1:02:18

I don't want to stay south, I know south.

Nadine Matheson: 1:02:24

So, graham, before we go, where can listeners of the conversation podcast find you? We already know when City on Fire is out 21st of March, yeah, so where can listeners of the conversation find you?

Graham Bartlett: 1:02:36

So I'm on. I'm on Twitter and Instagram as GB police advisor, with that's advisor with an OR, because I found out after I've written it that there's two ways of spending advisor. So GB police advisor. I'm on. I think I'm on threads and blue sky is the same, but I lose track of what I'm on all of those. And I'm on Facebook as Graham Butler, author and author and advisor, or something like that. You'll find me on Facebook page. On Facebook. So yeah, my website is wwwpoliceadvisorcouk.

Nadine Matheson: 1:03:07

And all those links will be in the show notes. I have another question for you guys. If you can remember, what are you reading right now?

Graham Bartlett: 1:03:15

At the moment I'm reading Strange Sally Diamond by oh are you.

Nadine Matheson: 1:03:19

It's so much, it's so much. Tbr.

Graham Bartlett: 1:03:24

It's everyone's recommended to me and I so. I do a lot of read. I'm reading other stuff as well, but that's for work. That's really the quoting. I can't really much your quote on my book to Nadine, quoting or advising, but I also try and read for pleasure as well. So I've just finished reading all the sinners bleed by essay Cosby, which is fabulous, and now Strange Sally Diamond, two books I bought at Harrogate last year. So I'm spoiling myself with those brilliant, brilliant, brilliant books, completely like nothing I've ever read before. And Strange Sally Diamond.

Nadine Matheson: 1:03:57

But they're complete opposites, aren't they All the sinners? And Strange Sally Diamond, like complete ends of the spectrum in terms of oh yeah absolutely, absolutely, you know, 100%, you know couldn't be more, more different, but equally excellent.

Graham Bartlett: 1:04:12

And you know, even though she's thinking you're here, I can't write like this.

Nadine Matheson: 1:04:18

I think when I have those moments, I feel like they're kind of like they're great moments to have, like oh my God, I can't write like this. I'm going to the other hand of oh my God, shit, I cannot write like this, how am I going to ever do this? But the other hand is a reader. You're like this is amazing.

Graham Bartlett: 1:04:34

This is amazing.

Nadine Matheson: 1:04:35

I can't do this. This is amazing. Well, Graham, I'm going to say thank you very much, Graham Bartlett.

Graham Bartlett: 1:04:40

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thanks for having me back.

Nadine Matheson: 1:04:45

You are welcome to get that accolade. I'll put it in the show now. It's my first repeat. Yes, graham Bartlett, thank you. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the Conversation, all you have to do is email theconversationatnadeemathesoncom. Thank you, and I'll see you next week.