Chioma Okereke: Law, Poetry And Literature, A Creative Metamorphosis

Ever wrestled with the decision to switch lanes mid-career, or felt the tug of a creative calling that defies expectations? Chioma Okereke is a poet and author who transitioned from the structured world of law to the fluid realm of literature. We take you through the peaks and valleys of releasing a novel, and the realities of authorship in our digital age—yes, including that tricky dance of social media for writers. Chioma and I talk about the  resilience needed to navigate the unpredictable tides of the publishing world, her new novel, Water Baby, which is a coming-of-age story set in the real settlement of Makoko in  Lagos. Nigeria and her charity Makoko Pearls.

Water Baby
She's the Pearl of Makoko and the world is her oyster.

In Makoko, the floating slum off mainland Lagos, Nigeria, nineteen-year-old Baby yearns for an existence where she can escape the future her father has planned for her.

With opportunities scarce, Baby jumps at the chance to join a newly launched drone-mapping project, aimed at broadening the visibility of her community.

Then a video of her at work goes viral and Baby finds herself with options she could never have imagined - including the possibility of leaving her birthplace to represent Makoko on the world stage.

But will life beyond the lagoon be everything she's dreamed of? Or has everything she wants been in front of her all along?

Follow Chioma Okereke

Transcript

Chioma Okereke: 0:00

The success of a book is largely not in an author's hands. An author, you know. That's the reality of it. Yes, you write a book, and hopefully you write a good book, but there is marketing, there's publicity, there is exposure, there are all these things that actually you know, and if a book isn't read, is it a book?

Nadine Matheson: 0:17

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, best-selling author, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. And in my intro today I'm going to talk a little bit about me, because well I can. So what I'm going to say is this Next week, on the 9th of May 2024, we'll see the release of the third novel in my Detective Inspector Henley series, the Kill List. I can't believe it's going to be here. It will be available for you all to buy in hardback, ebook and audiobook. What you can do is you can still pre-order the Kill List now, and the reason why authors always bang on about pre-orders is the fact that when you pre-order our novels, it shows our publishers, it shows the booksellers, that there's a demand for our books and if there's a demand, it means they'll get more copies in and it's a good all around. It's good for me, it's good for you, it's good for the world. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to read the blurb to you. You know, whet your appetite a little bit.

Nadine Matheson: 1:26

So, 25 years ago, dci Harry Rimes arrested Andrew Streeter for the brutal murders of five young people. Streeter's kill list of victims was found in his home and he was convicted of all five crimes. Now Streeter's convictions are being overturned, as new evidence implies, the original investigation was corrupt. No one is more shocked than DI Henley, because this case is personal. Rimes was her old boss and he's no longer alive to defend himself, but when the killings start up again, henley must face the truth. Rimes got it wrong. 25 years ago, henley and her team reopened the original murder cases. But they must put their personal feelings to one side, because the real killer is out there and he's working his way through a new kill list. So go ahead and pre-order the Kill List Now. Let's get on with the show.

Nadine Matheson: 2:21

This week I'm in conversation with author Chioma Okereke, whose novel Water Baby is available to buy now, and in our conversation we talk about when your first book doesn't catch fire the way that you want it to, how social media exposes the realities of author life and how connecting with readers keeps Shoma Okereke going as an author. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Shoma Okereke, welcome to the conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. You are welcome. Right, my very first question for you, because I always say have to do my research into people, which is normally just me stalking websites and reading bios when I'm doing my research, and I was very interesting to know that you did a law degree at university, yeah, and now you're a writer, which is not uncommon at all. Like previous conversations, there's so many authors who did law, were lawyers and then have become authors. But what I wanted to know is when did you know that you, that you wanted to be this creative person?

Chioma Okereke: 3:36

I was definitely always a creative person. I think the law thing came because I just used to watch law and order effectively. So when I went to university, I actually went. I had planned to study French and Spanish, but I didn't get into, I didn't make. I had an offer from Cambridge but I didn't make it. And so when I didn't make it, I started to question and doubt everything and I ran to my safety school was UCL, which I went to, and I started questioning what I would do with my French and Spanish degree. So a week before the university started I went to the law department and said I want to switch and they gave me an interview and they said, oh, yes, great, we'll take you.

Chioma Okereke: 4:13

And I went to do law, thinking, yes, let's go, you know, make my African parents happy. And probably about a month later into the degree I was like, oh, but you know. Equally, they tell you that you know law. It's really great because you can apply yourself for four years, you know, it shows you, it gives you critical thinking skills, all this stuff, but then you can use it wherever you go no-transcript. And I'm like no, I just, I've just got strategic thinking skills. And they're like no, you're not, you're a lawyer.

Chioma Okereke: 4:54

So it was like tantamount to doing medicine in a way that I hadn't appreciated. And it took a while for me to kind of expunge that from my CV and try and sort of you know, move in more sort of creative fields. But I think I knew quite early on that I was a creative. My father recognized me very early as a poet. I used to just love writing things down and, you know, creating poems and little short stories and sort of bits and bobs. But I think it's also that thing of a Nigerian upbringing where by, even though there's a massive thing of a Nigerian upbringing, where by, even though there's a massive tradition of storytelling in Nigeria, where we come from, it's not really considered as a first. You know that that would be your career Job. Yeah, exactly so, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 5:38

Did you ever feel that? You know, when you was at UCL studying law? Did you ever feel at some point I should have been at Cambridge? Or were you happy? Someone who's happy with the decision once you've made it?

Chioma Okereke: 5:49

I think it's. No, I have a lot of FOMO and I have a lot of what if, what if, what, ifs, but I mean I had no context. I have no idea what my life would have been like at Cambridge other than I would probably have been perhaps enjoying my degree in a different way, but I really did actually enjoy UCL and I think it was just this understanding that within the law degree, the things that I was most interested in were jurisprudence and family law. But I also knew that those were two things I would never practice because they most keenly affected people and I couldn't do that and I just felt like I couldn't be responsible for any of those kinds of cases and the rest of it, what I I just did not find particularly interesting, like you know, uh, property or contract and stuff. I had to do that, but I was. I couldn't imagine that as a full-time career, so it was more of a question of okay, so what am I going to do once I finish?

Nadine Matheson: 6:36

so when I was just thinking, when I did it, because when I, when I did my law degree, I did, I did a law conversion, okay, and when I was doing the LPC, I, and then I did a secondment with family and it's very you quit. You very quickly become aware of what you don't want to do and not what you personally can't deal with. Even though I do criminal law, which is, you know, I can do that, it doesn't me. I can go to sleep quite easily at night. But those six months doing family, I would think about these cases.

Chioma Okereke: 7:09

Exactly.

Nadine Matheson: 7:10

Because it's people I mean in criminal law. It's all about people in a different way.

Chioma Okereke: 7:15

Sure yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 7:17

Yeah. So I could, I just couldn't manage it. And then when you're talking about you know, being at UCL and then deciding, no, I am not doing which I need to, I need to do something else, I need to do law. And what I don't tell you when you're applying to uni is that when you're in uni, you are able to change your subjects and sometimes, because I did it, I switched, because it's not that, it's not that hard to do yeah, I think that's the thing.

Chioma Okereke: 7:41

I think you really don't know, you have no point of reference, but I think even that you're kind of funneled into things. So even in that sixth form phase and stuff, you know, you feel like you have to have it all figured out and you really don't. But, yeah, you know, if I had my time back would I have gone to not Cambridge but would I have done French and Spanish. Potentially it may have moved me into the writing field earlier, but the writing field earlier. But I mean I genuinely don't know, because you know I learned other things by, by following the, the law channel.

Nadine Matheson: 8:06

So so when, whilst you were at uni, that whole period, were you still focusing on your, your poetry and your writing? Were you still tapping into that?

Chioma Okereke: 8:15

I was still tapping into that. And then I did after university. I did the Mountbatten internship program for a year. So I went to the States and that was quite funny as well, because again, for the interview I went all straight laced, because that's how we were taught to do. And then I turned up for the year in New York with my fro hawk at that point in time and everything else, and I was like who's this? And of course they put me.

Chioma Okereke: 8:38

I think where did I start? I started off at, and again they were like oh, we didn't think you were creative as well. So I started off at British Airways or something. That was where my internship was going to be for a year and I was really bored after a couple of months and then I asked to move and then I was thinking I'm going to get some you know snazzy advertising agency in Manhattan, all this kind of stuff, and they were like nope, you can either go into banking or into law. So I ended up working for a real estate lawyer in the you know in again in Manhattan, which was nice and it was actually a lot of fun. I mean, it was fine. I just didn't want to do it and that was the thing. If I had continued, I'm sure she would have kept me on at the time as well, because we got on really well. She was a little battle axe of a lawyer, but I just it wasn't something I wanted to pursue.

Nadine Matheson: 9:23

So when did what was your first piece of work that you performed in public?

Chioma Okereke: 9:29

I don't remember, I genuinely don't remember, and I think it's so. But then when I was in the States, I discovered the Nuyorican Poets Cafe and my world kind of changed in that, because I mean I knew, I mean I had creative friends anyway already in the States. I did spend kind of a lot of time in the States. My cousins lived there as well, so I had a little bit of a community. But when I was living out there as what would I have been at the time, I don't know, 18, 19, 20 year old or something it was absolutely amazing. And at that time you'd go to the clubs and you would, you know, do everything. You were just, you were just in it.

Chioma Okereke: 10:01

And so I found this spoken word scene and it just it blew my mind. But it was also really intimidating because a lot of the people that were actually on the scene at the time were my friends. And that's even harder. I think that if it was perhaps a little bit more blind, then you feel less like you're exposing yourself. But they were also exceptionally good. We're talking about Felice Bell, who is, you know, humongous right now, steve Coleman, roger Bonet-Agard, all these people that are sort of really bastions of the spoken word community in the States, and so I found it really, really intimidating, and equally, I had my English accent. You go there and everything else.

Nadine Matheson: 10:41

I'm only laughing because I always find it bizarre that, like we hear American accents all the time when we go to the States, we're not like oh my god your accent, but I didn't say here are our accents. Like oh my god, you're English. It's like oh my god, yeah, even in McDonald's yeah, everything is slightly different.

Chioma Okereke: 10:59

You always say something slightly off. You can't just say, yeah, you need a soda. It's not like, can I get a I don't know a bottle of pop? I mean? Who says I mean, but it was really strange. And so, yeah, I found that, as much as I had found my people, I was terrified of my people. So I can't remember what I did when I, when I performed at the New Recon, I don't know, I don't know what I said, don't know what I did, but I spent a lot of my time as a poet in a, in a state of shock.

Chioma Okereke: 11:26

It was a little bit like I was a very good runner as a child, but that was a natural skill and I don't. I don't really remember that in terms of I mean, I just always won the races and stuff and I felt very much like a freak. My sister and I were exceptionally fast and we always joke that we're with the Williams sisters before the Williams sisters because, um, back in the day, but of course the school never told us how good we were, so we didn't do anything. I mean, we could have been, you know, living in some sort of houses, some British champions, but we didn't know and we both pursued academia instead, but it was.

Chioma Okereke: 11:57

It's a very different thing because it's just a natural skill. Then it's like you know, 11 seconds you're done, whereas you're very aware and hypersensitive with every moment that you're in front of a microphone. But equally my brain would just float away like I was absolutely petrified. So I just would never really understand what, how I came across or this. I just didn't like that feeling because it goes really, really quiet. Someone told me much later. Actually you should be quite pleased that it goes quiet, because it means people are listening to you, because sometimes silences are uncomfortable, though you just like and I'm like what am I talking about?

Chioma Okereke: 12:34

and you've got this. Obviously you've got this memorized thing and it's just quiet and obviously people are probably looking at you as well, because you're clearly different. You've got a different accent from you know other people that were there and everything else, and I'm just like, oh, my god, I can't stand it. So I yeah, I was not a successful performance poet maybe maybe people didn't realize that the extent of my nerves and so maybe anybody who saw me perform thinks I'm fine, but it was not natural to me at all did anyone not even give you feedback at that point, or they just let you just go do it and then move on.

Chioma Okereke: 13:05

So if they're your friends, you're fine, because if you're friends, you know, then they're automatically receptive towards you. I think, yeah, yeah, you know, I think I don't know. Actually, I mean again, and also for me, I also thought I was more of a page poet anyway. I mean, I'm very good at stringing lines together, but I'm just not very good at what what's the word carrying it all out. I can't do the. You know? Revelations, reflections, like what do you?

Nadine Matheson: 13:31

No, I, you know, I just when you say revelations and reflection, it's like it's what we've seen in the movies. If that makes sense. The only thing that comes into my head at the moment is love jones.

Nadine Matheson: 13:46

Yeah, love jones, the movie, but that's what you refer to, that's what you're expecting to see if someone's saying they're doing performance, yeah, poetry, but if that's not within you, naturally, that's not your natural skill set. You know when you're describing like being a runner, yeah, to me and my two brothers, my brother after me, we're the fast runners. The one, the last one, he's a thrower. But yeah, and my mum, yeah, I can't throw a discus to save my life, but I could sprint and I could jump exactly. But we kind of know that came from our mum as well, because she was the athlete.

Nadine Matheson: 14:21

So you have these natural abilities and skillset, yeah, and you don't think about them. You don't think about even necessarily working on them, because they're there. But when you're entering this new field, like you were, and even though poetry is you, this different part of it, that the performance aspect of it.

Chioma Okereke: 14:39

I think so, and I think because it was also those early days, and I think that things have changed a lot now and I think that you can, you know, sort of be the poet you want to be now and not necessarily have to do yourself to to that, but it becomes. It's just really daunting and you just, you're just aware how different you are and I think some people were very ready to lean into that. But I'm just not, I'm not comfortable with that. I'm actually not even comfortable, really, sort of being looked at. So it's one of those things where, as soon as the camera's there, like you, just suddenly, Well you freeze, you just freeze.

Chioma Okereke: 15:08

So it's that thing about being observed. You know I like making observations, but actually being you know, being observed I find it's not a natural state for me, and so I'm much better off hiding and sort of you know doing things in the corner.

Nadine Matheson: 15:26

It just reminds us what a friend said last night. We were talking about social media and people putting themselves out on social media, but all of their posts, everything they do, is it's not to have a conversation. I mean, I say conversation, but generally, but it's all about garnering attention for themselves. There is and yeah, and I find that uncomfortable because then there's no authenticity there is there isn't, there's no real communication or engagement.

Chioma Okereke: 15:51

It is this. We're in this sort of narcissist phase. You know, not everyone, but for the moment, yeah, but for the most part, and yeah, it's. It's something that is not natural to me. I don't really understand it. So, yeah, social media is that's the part I think actually about being an author and having to, you know, dive into all this kind of stuff. Because I think it's when, naturally, we just want to escape and just write our books and be in our computer. And having to have this front facing engagement, where you really are just talking to yourself I'm like, you know, I could talk to my partner in the kitchen. I don't have to record it so that he can like it in another room it's like it's really weird but having to do all that. But yeah, I think some people just some people love the camera, some people love that attention or love putting themselves out there, and you know, yeah, it's weird.

Nadine Matheson: 16:36

I just had this image of you. I don't know your partner, but it's you just pushing the camera in his face. We need to record this conversation. We need to record this. That's what people do, and then you just see their lives in a way like I don't really need to see that part of your life it's a mystery it's a mystery. It is when did? Did you ever feel sorry? Was there ever a point when you're uncomfortable telling people that you were a poet, or were you happy to do that?

Chioma Okereke: 17:06

I don't think it really came up. I think I would just say I was a writer rather than a poet, to be fair. Yeah, I don't think there is a discomfort in that, because I think that we're referencing like I don't even know. Is it 20, 30 years ago now? You know it probably 30 years ago. What with Love Jones? I can't say that Exactly. Oh my God, yeah, if you think about it, it was praised beyond 20. So I think at the time, I think there's a distinction because obviously, if you're in the States, whatever you declare yourself to be, people buy into it and that's beautiful. You're like, oh, I'm a poet. And it's like, hey, you got to meet Choma. That's this great poet from england. They haven't heard you say one word. But that you're a poet. But you know very much in the uk, whatever you declare yourself to be. The question is you know I'm a writer. Are you published? Oh, are you published okay? Well, oh, did you self-publish? Okay, did you study?

Nadine Matheson: 17:54

you know, I'm like, okay, okay, have I read anything you? Have I read anything you've written? You're like well, I don't know I'm not in your house.

Chioma Okereke: 18:03

Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so it's very strange. So I don't. Yeah, so I don't consciously remember whether I was declaring myself as anything at that time because also at that time I don't think I was published. I may have had a couple of things that were starting to appear in some literary journals or things like that, but I wasn't. I don't even think.

Chioma Okereke: 18:22

At that point I contemplated that I could still make a career out of it. I knew I was good, but I don't even think at that point I contemplated that I could still make a career out of it. I knew I was good but I didn't know how to be better and I hadn't studied it and I was around natural performers and people that probably understood the trajectories more, because a lot of those hosts that I was around in the States sort of went out. They had teaching gigs and sort of you know side things at universities and crafted you know crafted careers for themselves.

Chioma Okereke: 18:47

I was coming back to the UK and I was just still in that you know what do I do? Phase. I have a law degree. I'm trying to be creative. I'm not entirely sure where I should go into, you know. Should I go to TV staff. Should I do this? Like you know, again I'm still thinking in that mind of I have to have a career, and my career can't potentially be as a writer, balancing that conflict of self as an African daughter, and so I wasn't really sure what I was doing.

Nadine Matheson: 19:13

To be honest, Do you think that uncertainty it becomes much more prevalent because we're in the UK, in terms of what you do with this creative side of yourself, making a living out of it? Yeah, I suppose there's no guidance whether it was. I mean, now it's better, but I would say back then, like 20 years ago I say 20 years ago, but it doesn't feel old. I feel old today.

Chioma Okereke: 19:41

Let's just leave it like that, yeah let's just leave it like that.

Nadine Matheson: 19:44

We're not 20s. That sounds better, but it wasn't the information, wasn't there? It? Wasn't and the access to people. I think that's more important as well. The access to people similar to you maybe wasn't there yeah, it wasn't and the access to people. I think that's more important as well. The access to people similar to you maybe wasn't there yeah, it wasn't there.

Chioma Okereke: 19:58

And I also think and I was thinking about this again probably because all this stuff was coming up right for publication you know, I fish out of water in the states, but I also think I was equally in the UK, because in the UK, you know, then the, you know, then you had apples and snakes and all these things that were also happening as well. But I also felt that I wasn't from there either. Like it was really strange and I don't think it's just, maybe it's the, the boarding school thing or the whatever, but I wasn't legitimately London. I didn't grow up and I mean I went to.

Chioma Okereke: 20:27

You know, I came from Nigeria and I went to boarding school in like Hertfordshire for a really time and it was only sort of the university years that I, just before university, that I was in London for real, and I feel like even there I kind of stood out as well. There wasn't quite I don't know, I didn't quite fit into the poetry scene there either and I was just like this is really weird. I don't know why I felt so different to my peers, but I did. I don't know you know why I felt so different to my peers, but I did.

Chioma Okereke: 20:55

I don't know and I don't know whether it's also equally what I was interested in, but perhaps what I was looking at. I don't know Because, again, you know, poets are poets. Like I don't know it was. Yeah, I don't know. But I also think that it's a problem if you are uncomfortable revealing yourself, you know as a a to a degree, so that should have told me that you know I'm not in it in the same way these other people were. I. I knew I had a skill and I knew I I liked telling stories and observing things and sort of writing in sound, but I wasn't willing to expose myself the way that I imagined other people were doing or quite comfortable doing, and so I didn't feel like it was perhaps the most natural fit for me because you know when you're talking about going to boarding school and I know because I love, I say I love it, but I do, but it's on your website and you said fitting in doesn't mean that you belong.

Nadine Matheson: 21:49

Yeah, and immediately in my head I was thinking do you feel that you belong now Because you know? You're saying you went to boarding school and then you know you feel Nigerian but live in London and Paris and all these places and America.

Chioma Okereke: 22:04

Yeah. So yeah, it's less of a do I belong. It's yeah, yeah, fittingly doesn't mean you belong. I was talking about this yesterday but in the same token is that I don't. I don't. Actually I realize now I don't have to fit in anywhere. So that case, yes, in, in that sense I belong everywhere. But there isn't this, you know, longing to fit in a particular box or a shape or whatever it is, it doesn't really matter, like whether you think that you've assimilated enough, there'll be for people that you, you know, you're just not from there, or whatever it is. It's really interesting.

Chioma Okereke: 22:32

We're watching somebody feed phil last night and there was an episode. He's in edinburgh and he goes and pub and there's an indian man there with the most scottish accent in the world and they're eating something. I was thinking it's so amazing to me because if you couldn't see the screen, everybody would think he was scottish or he is scottish. But then someone can walk into that pub and and for somebody that walks in that pub and just sees this Indian magnate, you know, that's who he is, that's what he, you know he couldn't be anything else. He couldn't be Scottish, he couldn't be this. He certainly belonged in that pub or whatever it is.

Chioma Okereke: 23:05

And so there are always these invisible, you know, lines or barriers or anything else that are perhaps excluding you in a way that you don't feel excluded by, because you, you know, you're just in that space. But I think I'm older and wiser and I don't really care where I belong or don't belong, you know. In that sort of sense, I'm just free to be, I understand how to be, and if you're not at peace with that, I can't help you. But in terms of myself, I think I have moved through so many different countries in the world and so many different states, you know, and yeah, so, yes, it's. There's less of a case of I don't, you know, I, I don't belong anywhere.

Nadine Matheson: 23:43

I think the most important thing is that once you're sure of yourself and who you are exactly and what you want, then it doesn't really matter where exactly, because you know. You know yourself, yeah, and where you're going bingo not having to explain yourself to people.

Nadine Matheson: 23:59

It's funny when you're talking about the episode and hearing the Indian guy with the most Scottish accent. And when I go to Grenada and it threw us the first time because you have to get a lot of, say a lot of English people who come to the Caribbean I say all islands, the Caribbean they decide they're just going to live there. Yes, and they have children there. And I remember being in my mum's shop, in her restaurant, and this little white kid comes in and in the it's just a Grenadian accent that comes out. We'll say Tanti, so she's auntie. It's like, can I have this?

Chioma Okereke: 24:34

and I was like yeah, yeah you have moments like that, but you know that's life that's life and that's the world we live in, and it's just this who tells you that that shouldn't happen or that shouldn't be the norm, or that isn't the case, and you know.

Nadine Matheson: 24:49

So, yeah, yeah so when you published because I know that your first book I'm interested in as well your first book, bitter Leaf, was published in 2010 how did you? Get to. Well, I'm, but I don't know where my brain was this morning, because in my head I kept saying no, 2010, 10 years ago. And I've looked down, I thought, no, nadine, no, it's 14 years ago. What is wrong with you? Like you can't do maths all of a sudden. What? Was that journey like to publication back in 2010? Back in 2010,. I?

Chioma Okereke: 25:20

mean gosh, I don't remember. I mean, social media wasn't the way it was, you know now. So it was pretty much you know churmish of Facebook and you know Facebook and friends type thing. There wasn't that much that was done at that time, I think. So, yeah, I don't really remember that much about it and also, you know, it wasn't out for very long. My editor moved on quite quickly and you know, and then the sort of contract fell through. So it was, it was like a, a blip really, but yeah, but come out. Yeah, it came out. It was in the world. Then, you know, it left the world.

Nadine Matheson: 25:57

Yeah well, I sound like a therapist. Now, how did I make you feel? Describe it as such, as a being, a blip, there's something disappeared on the landscape and then, yeah, just as quickly both characters, and you want it to do well.

Chioma Okereke: 26:13

And you know, like you know, I'm a lover of books in general, so and I think a lot of authors are fantasists as well we always see the end three. So you imagine the success of the kind of books that you love or similar books like that. So you want to see it do well, you want it, you want it to be widely read and all those kind of things, and so you have hopes. And so I really had hopes for, and what I was really looking forward to was the paperback coming out, because that was a chance for, you know, a nice refresh, and at that point we'd had some nominations, some awards. We'd, you know, we would have had some quotes.

Chioma Okereke: 26:46

You know, my, my photo might've been on the cover of the book, which it never was, and all this stuff, stuff, and so that kind of never really happened. So it was. You know it was a bit disappointing. It's a bit disappointing because your book is your baby and you want people to tell you, you know, your baby's cute, or you want people to see your baby. Yeah, so, but it was a long time ago.

Nadine Matheson: 27:06

Puppeting's a very strange experience, I said because I don't think there's one writer out there who, at the very unless their book is a massive hit from the get-go, everyone has the expectation that my book is out in the world, it's going to be everywhere, everyone's going to read it and it's going to be like I say cheers, you walk into a bar and everyone it's going to be that experience Someone's reading your book, you know, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 27:35

Yeah, and then for a lot of writers, that is not the reality. It's the complete opposite it's out there. Well, if someone says it's out there, no one can see it, no one has seen it.

Chioma Okereke: 27:49

Yeah, it's true, it's very much like that. What was your family's response to that? No, I think they were obviously excited and they were very proud as well, but I mean the same token as family. You're worse than me because you know they're like the last ones to read it or whatever it is. You're like come on, give me a review on Amazon. They're like I'm not giving you a review on Amazon, so I don't know. But, yeah, I don't know, but, um, yeah, I think they, they, they're actually, you know, quite impressed and that you know that you're still toiling away and cracking on and trying to, you know, generate new stories.

Chioma Okereke: 28:20

Yeah, I think, yeah, and I think also, actually, what is nice is that for your family and your friends, you are legitimately an author because they craft, they see the endeavor, they see the finished product, so it's real to them and you know, and it is real, as we say, this is an authentic author experience. We look at whoever you want to say, the JK Rowlings or the Chimamandas and stuff and they are the exceptions to the rule. They are those freak situations where they become incredibly successful, and there are probably a lot of writers that are equally, you know, at their level that you know, unfortunately. Just you know, don't catch fire or whatever it is. It's a luck thing as much as anything else as well, and timing and all those other things. But you've just got to keep hoping that you've got more stories in you and you never know which one is going to catch fire and which one is going to. You know, appeal to the public or to publishers and all those kind of things, that's.

Nadine Matheson: 29:15

that's all you can really do was there ever a moment though you know when I'm going back to 2010, yeah, when you've written this book, it's, you know it's come. It hasn't caught fire the way you wanted it to well, even the way you want it's where you dream about it getting fired. That hasn't happened. Yeah, was there ever moments when you thought to yourself you know what, maybe I need to do a pivot and probably look back and decide and do something else? Did?

Chioma Okereke: 29:39

that moment ever come.

Chioma Okereke: 29:40

I think it always does. But I mean, I'm stubborn as well, so I do, you know, I stick my feet in and go no, you can't tell me. No, you know, and I also do recognize that the the success of a book is largely not in an author's hands. An author, you know that's the reality of it. Yes, you write a book is largely not in an author's hands. An author, you know that's the reality of it. Yes, you write a book and hopefully you write a good book. But there is marketing, there's publicity, there is exposure, there are all these things that actually you know.

Chioma Okereke: 30:05

And if a book isn't read, is it a book Like? You don't? You know, you don't know, and that's why and we also think about authors who are discovered sort of many years after their time. So there was, you know. So of course you inevitably battle the my book wasn't good enough, I didn't do well enough thing. And then you have that ego thing that goes no, actually it was quite good, I actually really did enjoy that book and you know, and the people that, the handful of people that read it, did enjoy that book as well. So it, you know it is a good book and maybe it will find its time, or something, or someone will rediscover it, or TikTok will bring it back in 30 years' time. So I don't know.

Chioma Okereke: 30:38

I think you have that. You always have that thing in your head and, of course, the people that are just like you know what right that's it. I'm going back, dust off the law degree, apologize and have someone take me back. But no, I don't think I got to that thing. I just thought, okay, fine, tell another story or try again. I think at this point I recognised you want to write. These stories will not stop coming. You've always got a notebook. You're always crafting something. Let's not pretend. This is not what you want to do Now. You just have to try and find a way to do it. And I think it's so interesting because actually I think it's these last two or three years.

Chioma Okereke: 31:15

I've really spoken to many more authors and realized that my experience is much more similar to theirs, but for a long time I really thought it was unique to me. So I was like there's clearly something I'm doing wrong. And why does everybody else seem to be fine and this mistake didn't happen to them and this didn't happen to them and it's not true. And it's also this social media thing as well, where you're supposed to be living your best life and when you're literally crying into your ice cream at home and no one knows the actual truth of the matter as well. But it's been actually really revelatory to me and I'm like, oh okay, kind of yeah, it's not that great for a lot of people and you're just sort of suffering in silence. But you know, we want to be in this industry, and we want to be in this industry and we want to tell our stories, and so you know, you've got to, you've got to hang in there.

Nadine Matheson: 31:57

I think that's probably one of the big differences between 2010 or 2020, an author in 2010 and being an author, yeah, now, in 2010, it was very much a being an author that you are in a bubble, yeah, in terms of and you're not being exposed to other authors story. So you wouldn't. I mean I wasn't publishing, god. What was I doing in 20? Well, I was still just going to work being a lawyer. I had to think about what I was doing. I was still just being a lawyer. I wasn't, I mean, I was writing stuff, but I wasn't, wasn't anywhere near, yeah, publishing stuff, but I was just working full-time and I say, living my life that way. But you wasn't. I say back then you wouldn't necessarily have been exposed to other authors stories or that you know their actual personal. This is the reality of my author life and anything you did see it would be if you picked up a newspaper, you picked up a magazine and then you'd nest, then you'd see these profiles, or if they're being interviewed on april and free.

Nadine Matheson: 32:56

But but then that's, that's, you know, the highest pedestal not the well, you know, I post what they'll call the mid list, or the reality so that's the funny thing.

Chioma Okereke: 33:08

In fact, in a complete, in a slight tangent now, I was reading this article yesterday about cribs. Do you remember cribs? Yes where half of those people didn't actually own those homes and half of the cribs were. All those things were faked and it's like well, I mean, I think that just sums it up really. I think you know the reality was you.

Nadine Matheson: 33:28

You didn't really see, you didn't really know what was going on at all no, I realized that it sounds a bit I don't know, I don't know what to call it. But when I watch a lot of reality shows, a lot of maybe like in my full admission a lot of these real housewives, yeah, and then you realise, you know, when you watch enough of them and you get to know certain characters in there, you realise very quickly that the wealth they portray they don't actually have even it comes out every week.

Nadine Matheson: 33:58

They've got a new handbag, new designer yeah you realize that's because they might. Oh, because they're renting. Exactly when that dawns on you, you're like oh, so there's a whole bunch of people sitting there watching it, wanting to have that lifestyle. But that lifestyle it's not even attainable, because it's not even real.

Nadine Matheson: 34:15

Yeah, smoke and mirrors, yeah, yeah, yeah it's all smoke and mirrors which is like. So now you know, when we fast forward to present day, and authors, you know, social media it does have its benefits, has a lot of benefits, and one of those main ones is the fact that authors are a lot more open about the realities of being published, whether it comes to how much they're being paid in the advances, the reality of advances, the realities of their books being marketed or not being marketed. What a marketing budget is and you have some authors who will respond to social media marketing budget. I don't know anything about a marketing budget. It was zero, so you know that is much. We're much more exposed to that. There's a bigger exposure to that. Yeah, I agree so. So what was your journey now? So, if you fast forward to now, present day, 2024, with water baby, how different has your, has your publishing experience been now?

Chioma Okereke: 35:15

I think actually it's in some ways different, in some ways not so different. I mean, I there have been lots of changes in a way that perhaps wasn't the the case the first time around and also had a very long publishing time. Because of the pandemic there was a bit of a backlog in publishing, so I had a long lead time, which is very frustrating for an author and you want your book out there like normally it's like 18 months, I mean, for me I think it's been like two and a half years or something. It's almost three. It's like a really really long time. Oh, exactly. And and then the, the acquiring editor, she also moved to a different publishing house. My agent left at the end of this year.

Chioma Okereke: 35:53

So it's very strange, that's a lot moment of celebration after this such a long window and and some of the original team aren't aren't there in the same capacity, but luckily, you know I have other people there, sort of championing water baby and you know I just hope it does well, but it's um, it's a strange thing and I think, like I say, social media is very different. So the level of engagement that I've done this time around versus before, I mean I acquired skills I did not know, I probably lost my eye sight. You know. Second job, trying to cut videos and you know Tarantino. So I'm like again who am I doing this for? My two cats are very important, but you've got to try.

Chioma Okereke: 36:38

So, yeah, so I think you know, I think there is. It's actually probably more exciting this time around, maybe because I don't remember because I'm going to happen to access 24 years ago, as you're saying, I don't know what, what I did around that at the time, but been a lot more to sort of do in these last few months before publication, just trying to get the word out there. So I've been incredibly busy. But also equally because I've set up a charity as well, you know. So, my, you know, you know, I'm just extremely busy in a way, that's quite good. So you know, the book is out next week and I hope I can just look back on this moment and say, yeah, I did everything I could possibly to give this a fighting chance, and you know, and just hope that people start to read it, and you know and enjoy it.

Nadine Matheson: 37:20

So you know. So you had the gap, which is 14 year gap in the day, not a 10 year gap, a 14 year. What were you doing in that 14 year gap?

Chioma Okereke: 37:27

So 14 year gap. I was working, so I was, I was, I've worked in NGO sector. I've worked in film and television predominantly. I was also writing as well. Same token I was trying to write, and you know, and in between then I've also had agents, I've had agents that haven't sold those books and whatever it is. So I have been trying to sort of keep in the game. You know, then I would maybe write a short story. Maybe, you know, enter this competition, maybe win a little something. Short story, maybe, you know, enter this competition, maybe win a little something.

Chioma Okereke: 37:57

There will always be some sort of nugget that would say don't give up. Like, people always see my potential. And I think that if I was someone that perhaps hadn't had successive agents, I may have been like you know what, I can't do this, but actually I seem to. I think people recognize my potential or whatever it is, and maybe then it comes down to the kind of story that I tell. Or, you know, I don't know what it is, you know, so it's. It's one of those things where I think I've had enough incentive to keep going, rather than getting the messaging that this is not for me. Okay, give up, give up. Give up and pivot, which is why I'm still here 14 years later.

Nadine Matheson: 38:30

Yeah, so that's what I was doing, and then just also working is it hard, though, when you're having to, if you know you're leaving an agent and then you're going back out on submission. Yeah, again is it it's really again.

Chioma Okereke: 38:44

You've just kind of got to roll the punches. I think it's really hard. But then you realize now that it's done more often than you realize, because it comes to the point where it's like your, your pitch letter is supposed to be short and sweet. You can't now stop justifying 14 years, or you know. But trust me, I'm okay, I don't have a problem, like, are you genuinely done? You just want to say I've just written a good book and that's fine. But actually you, you ultimately can, because, also, it's just not, there's actually nothing wrong with it.

Chioma Okereke: 39:14

Sometimes, you know, agents can't sell books. Sometimes it's just not a right personality fit, sometimes they're too busy, they're all these kind of things. But you do take it all personally because, like I say you, you slave over this stuff. It means something to you, but ultimately it's a business and so you do have to, you know, acquire some of that business skin and just think look, you know it's like putting sending your CVs out there. You can't get crestfallen every time you apply for a job and you don't get that job. You know you've got to do it in a in a slightly different way.

Chioma Okereke: 39:41

It's just that it's a weirder thing where you know, sometimes people say, you know, your relationship with your agent should be like a marriage and all this kind of stuff. And I mean I, you know, I've yet to get to that part. I don't think that's, you know. You know, I haven't locked out in that way, I haven't had that kind of thing. I think we just actually need to see it is.

Chioma Okereke: 39:59

Again, it's like, you know, when I used to temp, I feel like it's a temping agency. It's almost a little bit more like that. You know, you can have a really good manager, but it's a temping agency. Let's not get it twisted. It's not necessarily a marriage per se, but there are some people that have fantastic relationships with their agents, and you know, and who are very, very invested in their career, their whole of life. Career is not just necessarily the book that's in front of them, that is the ultimate dream and you're just looking for your champion, uh, you know, and that that makes it everything seem, you know, much more achievable and everything else. I don't know.

Chioma Okereke: 40:32

I just haven't been lucky in that way yet but I am actually grateful that a lot of people seem to recognise some stuff in my work. And you know, and I just have to hope that you know, one of these books will, you know, will hit.

Nadine Matheson: 40:47

Did anyone tell you or try and convince you to write anything? Write something different.

Chioma Okereke: 40:53

Actually no, no, no, no, yeah, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 40:58

I think sometimes we hear a lot of stories, especially when it comes to, I say, black writers and writers of colors, where they there's an expectation, something not with everyone, but there's an expectation sometimes you'll write a certain kind of book, yeah, and that these are the books that are sell, and I think, yeah, that it as as explicit.

Chioma Okereke: 41:18

I think sometimes they try and get you to put a little bit more in a book than you then you're comfortable with, or something like that, or they went as we say well, actually the reason these books aren't selling is because you're not writing about what you know, what we think. You know, I think, but you know, if you were writing the things that they would expect a writer with an african name to write, you may be published writing those things. I don't think anyone wants to say that about the industry. I will say that about you, know I. So no one has actually expressly said that to me, but I do, you know. I do often wonder because, like I say, it is my, they're my african novels are the ones that seem to be published as opposed to the. Oh, I'm living in rural france. Here is my you know authentic story about rural france. Nope, here is my. You know, when I was, uh, in portobello, here's my portobello, whatever, nope.

Nadine Matheson: 42:05

So you know, I don't know, yeah what has before we go into um water baby? What has this? I say this creative journey, not just a publishing journey, but this entire creative journey. What has it taught you about yourself?

Chioma Okereke: 42:18

that I. I am strangely resilient. I think that's the only way I could. I can think about that and, yeah, I. I just think either that or I'm incredibly stupid and don't know when to give up what's wrong with you?

Chioma Okereke: 42:34

just do something else. I'm like I'll, yeah, I'll be here to the last. I don't know, I think it's, uh, probably resilient, and I also think that, look, if I, if I, if the ideas weren't still coming, then fine, I would have stopped writing a long time ago. But I think it's clearly part of my dna, because I, you know, I appreciate I think that's the only. I always say you know, people, oh, I can write a book, I couldn't write a book or I could do this, and I actually think everyone can write a book, but I understand that people don't. It's because no one I mean the authors go and write a book, because they're the ones that you know actually go to physically, to their computers or to their notebook and actually put those things down.

Chioma Okereke: 43:16

For the most part that I won't commit to that. The time it takes to actually craft, to craft a novel, and I. So I genuinely think that if that wasn't still happening to me, then you know, yeah, I can watch TV with the rest of the world, I don't need to actually do that. So but it is just part of me. I think that I don't feel whole, I don't feel normal if there isn't a notebook stuff. You know, if I'm not writing something down, if something isn't squirreling in my brain or something pops in my brain when I'm doing something else and I'm like, oh my God, that's another novel idea or whatever it is, it's just who I am and I think that I have to accept the two things.

Chioma Okereke: 43:47

I am an author and I would like success, and those two things may not be the same. You know that. You know one doesn't negate the other. You know I, I am, and that's going to be my experience, you know, and hopefully one day I will be perceived as a successful author. I will perceive myself as that because I've continued to craft. You know and, and and do it in spite of everything else. But you obviously hope that you know that you will be. You know, I don't know if I can't finish my sentence, but you get it, but.

Nadine Matheson: 44:19

I'll say that. I mean success means different things to different people. You know we all have different ideas of success, but I think what I was thinking of is that because you've been you know you've been shortlisted for prizes throughout your career, do you think having that sort of validation, like cemented that, not urgency, that that need to be an author, I think it's carried on regardless. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

Chioma Okereke: 44:50

I think it helps, but I think I would have carried on regardless. Because, yeah, I think I would have carried on regardless. I actually think it's genuinely, I think it's interactions I have with people directly and when you have written something that resonates with them. I think that's always what has kept me going. Because, equally, when I started as a poet, I started as a poet I think it was maybe pre-GCSEs, and I think it was only also because I latched on in school I was like you can't get marked badly for poetry because it's all about expressing yourself. So it was an easy A. So actually, that's probably why, you know, I was like what's your new poll?

Chioma Okereke: 45:26

And then I realized that I would just do things and it would entertain people.

Chioma Okereke: 45:29

So I would write these little poems for people in boarding school and little short stories, and it was really entertaining. But and then I, you know, so I I started to hone my craft because I could see the impact it had on people and people, would, you know, connect with your words or connect with your story and whatever it is, and I think that's probably what has kept me going, rather than the sort of you know, an award or this or that. But I think when you actually interact with someone that says you know an award or this or that, but I think when you actually interact with someone that says you know I read your story or I felt that you know it, you know it's that, it's that connection, it's that you know engagement, I think that's probably what keeps me doing it and that's why I am so desirous of my stories to be read by people and for you know more people to kind of interact with my, with myself. So you know I more people to kind of interact with my, with myself.

Nadine Matheson: 46:12

So you know, because, um, I know I was gonna say I was gonna say there's not many authors, I know I don't think there's not many people, when they're working, whatever industry they're in, who are honest about wanting success. They'll sometimes dance around it. I feel like, oh, you know, I'm doing it for the love of it. Yeah, we're all doing it for the love of it. We're all doing it for the love of it. Of course we do want to be successful. There's anything wrong with saying, you know, being open about that and being honest about that well, I definitely do.

Chioma Okereke: 46:38

I mean, if you think, if you're a musician, you're like, do I really want to be selling my, my EP, outside of a tube station the whole time? Or would an ideal you know, you know an ideal scenario be, you know, wherever it is? I mean, that's the reality. Of course music is music and art is art and everything else. Of course you want to be recognized. Of course you want to be perceived as you know, successful. I don't know, actually, if I would want the level of jk rowling success or, to be honest, I don't think I want that level of pressure, but it would be nice to, it really would be nice to go into a tube carriage and see someone reading your book.

Chioma Okereke: 47:11

You know and not someone yeah, someone, you're forced to hold your book so you can take a picture on could you imagine just grabbing some random person on the street?

Nadine Matheson: 47:24

look very excited that it's me. Yeah, so tell us about, we can tell the awful. I can't. I can't even speak about your book.

Chioma Okereke: 47:36

Water, baby yeah, so water baby is a coming-of-age tale, uh, portraying the societal pressures of a young woman growing up in makoko. Makoko is in lagos, niger. It is the world's largest floating slum. It was established in the 19th century where fishermen from nearby Togo and the Republic of Benin sort of set up on the lagoon and has grown steadily ever since, because it's an informal settlement. We don't know what the numbers are. Conservative estimates are like 85,000, but it could be anything up to a quarter of a million people living on the lagoon.

Chioma Okereke: 48:15

We know that Lagos is Africa's most populous city, but Baby yearns for a different existence to the one tradition would really have her experience, which is probably being married off early, a lifetime smoking fish to sell in Lagos and beyond. She is much more enamored with the idea of becoming a dream girl, and the dream girls are. These girls have been recruited for a new drone mapping initiative that was taking place in Makako so they could better understand what is actually in the community on the waterways and to also give them more legitimacy in the eyes of the world, so the government can't try and move them from their area. Her father is resistant to that because obviously he has a long history of what life is like in Makoko and doesn't want her to do it. But she sneaks off and does it anyway and a picture is taken of her that goes viral and with that the eyes of the world are on Baby and on the community, and as opportunities present themselves, we see Baby given a chance to experience life beyond the lagoon. But is that what she wants?

Nadine Matheson: 49:24

Question I had for you when I was, when I've been reading Water Baby. That was because Makoko is based on, it's a real place, and also you've got your charity, yeah. So the question I had in my head is what do you want the reader to come away with when they've read that last page, they've closed the book. What do you want them to feel in that moment?

Chioma Okereke: 49:47

To be fair, I want them to still be in that place. I want them to because the moment I, I was very ignorant about Makoko myself, despite being born in Nigeria, and so when I came across this food program in the during the pandemic, when we just watched TV and it was shot in Makoko, I was like my god, how is this guy there? And I never even think to go there or, you know, just had no awareness. And from that moment onwards I was so fascinated about the place and the community, and so I'm hoping that I have portrayed it realistically and I hope that with that portrayal, people are equally still fascinated. So I wanted to stay there. I wasn't, you know.

Chioma Okereke: 50:27

I kept on going back to the internet, I kept on doing a deep dive, and I hope that people are equally as curious, and so I'm hoping that by following Baby's story and the journeys of you know there are lots of characters in this book as well People are still in that space of curiosity and engagement and want to know more about the community and how they can, you know, ultimately get involved or help. You know the story is about how no change is too small. Can you know, ultimately, get involved or help. You know. The story is about how no change is too small, you know, and how we really are all connected as well, and I hope that they would, you know, feel inclined to you know, learn how to you know, ultimately help us transform the lives of people who are perhaps less privileged.

Nadine Matheson: 51:06

And how do you feel about this book about Water Baby, your baby.

Chioma Okereke: 51:10

I mean, water making really is my baby. I do love it. It was so much fun to write and it was. It's been incredible. You know, each time I go back and visit the community and see so many babies just living their lives, I mean it is the strangest thing that very first time I went to visit the community I was literally watching scenes I'd written the book taking place in front of me and it was the weirdest sensory experience and so, yeah, I I'm incredibly proud of this book. I mean, I was, I was proud of Bitterleaf as well. I I am incredibly proud of Water Baby and and and proud of the efforts I've put in with the book and also with this charity, and I really hope that you know it. It captures people's imagination and I think that we're also in such a time where people also, you know, are very invested in good news stories. I want to give back and, you know, because this world is burning. You know that literally it's burning.

Chioma Okereke: 52:08

But you look at that or you could also look at other things and there is so much, there is so much good and there is so much light, and I'm just choosing to focus on that, and I hope that that's what people ultimately do okay, so before we go into your final four questions, this is what I said.

Nadine Matheson: 52:21

This is one of my new questions. I like to ask authors now what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career?

Chioma Okereke: 52:29

what piece of advice? Perhaps that it's not personal yeah, yeah, I think that's.

Nadine Matheson: 52:36

I think it's a good one, I think it's. I think, once you realize, or you accept that, yes, you know, yes, we're creative people, we're making art, we're writing our books, we're creating music, but once you realize, also, this is a business, yes, I think it makes things a lot more easier for you. It can do definitely yeah, okay, so show me your questions. Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Chioma Okereke: 53:01

I think I'm a hybrid of the two, but I think I lean more to introvert. When I'm extroverted, people think I'm really, you know, extroverted. I'm, you know, maybe not on this interview, but I am very funny and I'm tall and I'm, you know, nigerian. So I think that people you know assume I'm an extrovert, but I'm you know. My partner will tell you I'm a complete introvert.

Nadine Matheson: 53:26

What challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most? That?

Chioma Okereke: 53:30

is a hard one. I don't know if I can answer that shaped me the most, I don't know. I think I'll just probably say just going to boarding school, because I think that's probably the start of the. I realized that and I realized it's more as an adult than I probably would have done consciously as a kid. But having to assimilate and having to you know perhaps the machinations that I went through as someone that was probably too young for that situation in order to adapt to life, is something that probably has shaped me in ways, good and bad, going through life, but it wouldn't be something that I would have processed at six or seven is that how old you were when you went to boarding school?

Nadine Matheson: 54:14

six, six years old, they're so young. No, I mean, I got. I'm not upset, I was. I put my hand to my chest when my my brother, who lives in Japan, and my nephew, who's going to be four in May, starting primary school. I know, and you see the uniforms and the book bag what are you doing, but I could handle that bit.

Nadine Matheson: 54:39

It's when my brother said to me, yeah, he's got to get on a school bus. I was like, what do you mean get on a school bus at four years old? What? 50 minutes on a bus on his own? I said, what do you mean on his own? He's not breaking. Obviously I'm biased. I mean he's the smartest four-year-old that I know, my nephew. He's very smart and he's very funny, but I'm like he's four years old on a bus.

Chioma Okereke: 55:00

I know, so I'm sure he'll be on the bus in, you know, in disguise, every single day he's gonna have to ride that bus, charles on the bus.

Nadine Matheson: 55:07

I know I just like it just blew me. I said pan on my chest moment, like I'm not saying my nephew on a bus leaves for you on a school bus at four. But you know that's me getting upset. I say upset, not upset but shocked, before you are getting on a school bus but being six and being taken, you're not taken. You know you leave home with your parents or whatever and they drop you off at a school with your suitcase and wave bye to you. I don't, I don't, I can't, I couldn't imagine that it's a good thing.

Chioma Okereke: 55:39

It's a good thing is you don't remember it. I mean, I don't remember it, but but I think when you look at it in hindsight and it's really funny like my um brother found my old school blazer a couple of years ago and then you just see how small it is and it really does put it in perspective when you're thinking on earth, how is that even? But yeah, so I think it probably has shaped me, because when I'm thinking about your question, that's probably it.

Nadine Matheson: 56:02

One more question about the boarding school thing did you come straight from Nigeria and straight to boarding school? You weren't, you weren't, you weren't doing Nigeria and the UK and spending time in the UK.

Chioma Okereke: 56:14

No, I think it was straight to boarding school.

Nadine Matheson: 56:17

Like off the plane and in school.

Chioma Okereke: 56:19

I don't know if it was Sorry. You know were days in between, Maybe we went to.

Nadine Matheson: 56:26

Were there days.

Chioma Okereke: 56:30

That I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. And it's also. I mean, I've got older siblings, my brother's three years older than me, my sister is six years older than me, so I think they were aware we were going to boys school because, you know, my father had that conversation with them because they were older. But obviously it didn't happen to me because I was the young one, so it was all you know, it was just shock and whatever. But again, you have no other experience to compare it to.

Nadine Matheson: 56:53

You know, you just adapt and were you 16 when you left and then go six from quite a while you left.

Chioma Okereke: 56:58

And I went to a day school. So I did 16 to 18. I was in London, I was at a day school and then I went to university.

Nadine Matheson: 57:05

What's that like, though, when you move from being in boarding school from the age of six and then you're in a day school, and you know what? 16 and 18, that's a funny time, when you'd be 16 and 18.

Chioma Okereke: 57:16

And I hated it because, equally, you go into boarding school and boarding school is all about that hierarchy and getting right into the top, getting to be the upper. You know, upper six girls and all that kind of stuff. So you bank all that. And also there's years of conviviality and you know, you grew up, you're sharing those same spaces with people, so they become your sisters and whatever. And you know, and that the school that I was in, just before j school, was a girls school.

Chioma Okereke: 57:39

So for like four years or six I don't remember how long I was there, but you do, you have all these extra, you know, family members and all your sisters, and then to have to rebuild at 16, it was really discombobulating for me as well. I mean, I didn't want to. You know, it was just so, it was um, a transition that I didn't want to make. I didn't want to leave the school. But again, my father likes to follow the league tables and so, no, yeah, going to this one is number whatever it was, and and so you have to start all over again and and it's um, it was very different.

Chioma Okereke: 58:06

And also, you know, you've got that borders have this mentality like when you're at school. It's very easy to focus on your work and when you're at home that's like your holiday time. So it was actually really hard for me to switch my brain, because now I was at home but I was going to school, so I don't think I even even academically wasn't working in the same way, I couldn't actually do that sort of that shift and then just navigating exactly a whole different experience, getting the bus in the morning to school, doing a lot of sort of stuff, you know. And then you know 16 to 18, and then you're in London and people you know it was just yeah, it was not, it was probably not the best fit for me at all, which probably was my, you know, my Cambridge thing and all that stuff.

Nadine Matheson: 58:47

So it was like yeah yeah, it probably sounds like I was just being really intrusive, but on my side, you know, my only knowledge of Boulders score is what I read Mallory Towers, like that was it I read, and the other one what's the other one, claire, I can't remember there were two sets. Yeah, yeah, it's just reading Mallory Towers, just working their way through five years of Mallory Towers, however long it was, and that's your owner, that that's your only. For me, my only exposure.

Chioma Okereke: 59:13

Yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 59:14

Not yeah, it's so when you hear it. You just so when I talk about my nephew, four years old, going on a bus and six years old, yeah, but you know it's just like. I suppose it's like anyways old, it does for sure and then you have to.

Nadine Matheson: 59:29

You're born out of it, you're exposed to this wider world and I think, whether you know, whether you're in boarding school, you know we all have our own little bubbles. Yeah, and it's that is how we adjust and deal with that transition to the wider world. Okay, so if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Chioma Okereke: 59:50

oh, 25. I would say don't wait. That was the advice I would give myself is don't wait. I think that, yeah, and that would apply to anything and everything. I would say don't wait. So I would just stop thinking about things and being, you know, being so cerebral and thinking that you can weigh up all these things, and I would just have encouraged myself to just do it, whatever that thing was.

Nadine Matheson: 1:00:15

I think at 25 we have a tendency to overthink things. I think we magnify the importance of certain things and really, looking back, you're like it wasn't that important, it really wasn't. It wasn't what you made it out to be, it really wasn't, yeah. So finally, where can listeners find you online?

Chioma Okereke: 1:00:35

online? Oh, I don't know. That's an interesting one. I'm not really online. This is a terrible question. What am I supposed to say? Your website? You can find me on my website, chabacaracaycom. Or you can find me at macocopearlsorg. And on Instagram. You'll find lots of reels where I talk about my writing process and about Water Baby and about the Macoco community as well, so I guess you can find me there.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:02

So you are online, I guess.

Chioma Okereke: 1:01:04

You're available. I'm talking to myself online. I don't really think I'm online, but maybe, maybe I am.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:10

You are, you're there and accessible. People can find you. All that does. It leads me to just say Shoma Akerike, thank you very much for being part of the conversation. Thank you, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the Conversation, all you have to do is email theconversation at nadinemaffersoncom. Thank you, and I'll see you next week.