Phoebe Morgan: Unveiling the Book World, From Draft to Published Novel

Navigating the labyrinth of the publishing world can be daunting, but with the insights shared in this episode from author and commercial fiction publishing director, Phoebe Morgan,  aspiring writers and book enthusiasts alike will find a guiding star. Phoebe and I unravel the nuances of writer-editor dynamics, discussing everything from handling rejection to the realities  of book deals and fifth novel, The Trip. We don't hold back as we lay bare the strategic underpinnings of the publishing calendar, the emotional rollercoaster of writing schedules, and the balancing act of managing talented authors.

We talk candidly about the importance of diversity and transparency in publishing, and the profound satisfaction that comes from career milestones. Whether you're penning your first draft or simply love getting lost in a good book, this conversation will inspire, inform, and connect you to the world of words in ways you never imagined.

The Trip
The perfect holiday. The perfect crime.

Four friends on the holiday of a lifetime. Until a vicious murder shatters their paradise.

Four friends who'd do anything for each other, until now.

Only one of them committed a crime.

But all four know how to keep a secret.

And they're all guilty of something…

Follow Phoebe Morgan 

Transcript

Phoebe Morgan: 0:00

We have got a long way to go in terms of diversity, so I'm not saying they're not true, but I think we need to break down those barriers and I don't want it to feel like an elitist industry where we're all gatekeepers and we don't want writers, because we do want writers. I'm always wanting to find new voices and new writers and new talent and I hate the idea that some writers feel that that's not the case.

Nadine Matheson: 0:21

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, best-selling author Nadine Matheson.

Nadine Matheson: 0:27

As always I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had an extra special, enjoyable bank holiday weekend. But now we're back. And can I say why this is an extra special week? Because this week sees the release of my third Detective Inspector Henley novel, the Cure List. Yes, it's finally going to be out on Thursday, the 9th of May 2024 in hardback, audiobook and e-book and honestly, I'm so excited I'm beyond excited that it's finally going to be out there and also it's received really amazing reviews so far from readers who've had the pleasure of reading it early and also from authors that I really admire.

Nadine Matheson: 1:13

And let me tell you what a few of those authors have said. So Andrew Amara, number one Sunday Times bestselling, author of no One Saw a Thing, said dark, tense, action-packed, and so so clever. One Saw a Thing said dark, tense, action-packed and so so clever. Once I started the kill list, I couldn't stop until the very last page Outstanding. Liz Nugent, sunday Times bestselling author of Strange. Sally Diamond said another absolute cracker, gruesome and gritty. And Neil Lancaster, author of Dead Man's Grave, said tense, disturbing and shocking. Nadine Matheson has nailed it again.

Nadine Matheson: 1:46

And I've also got a treat for my listeners of the Conversation Podcast I will send a signed book plate and a postcard to the first 30 listeners of the Conversation Podcast who post on social media, or you can email me a picture of you holding a copy of the Cure List. So here are the rules Post a picture of yourself holding a copy of the Cure List on social media. Make sure you tag me in. So for Twitter, also known as X, my handle is at Nadine Matheson. On Instagram it's at QueenNads, so tag me. Make sure you're holding a picture of my book, the Kill List, and I will send you a signed book plate and a postcard with a very special message on it. Now let's get on with the show.

Nadine Matheson: 2:34

This week I'm in conversation with author and commercial fiction publishing director at Hodder Books, phoebe Morgan, whose fifth novel, the Trip, is also out this Thursday, and in our conversation, phoebe and I talk about managing the expectations of her authors as an editor, what she looks for when taking on an author and if whether or not she has applied the advice she gives as an editor to her own writing. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Phoebe Morgan, welcome to the own writing. Now, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Phoebe Morgan, welcome to the conversation.

Phoebe Morgan: 3:10

Thank you, very nice to be here.

Nadine Matheson: 3:12

I'm so glad to have you here. I was very excited that you're going to be on my podcast, so my first question for you I was thinking about this last night was what was the moment like for you as an author when you got a yes for your own book? So not like an editor, when you take on a book but it's your own book and someone said yes gosh, that's a good question.

Phoebe Morgan: 3:33

So that must have been in 2017 I think it was 2017, so quite a while ago now and I mean it was amazing. It's what everybody wants and I had wanted it for a while at that point. Um, so I think I had signed with my agent in I always struggle to remember the timeline, but I think about 2015, um and then we'd gone on submission and it didn't sell immediately. It took quite a while to sell, and so then when it did, it was almost like extra exciting, because I had kind of given up on it this is my first book, the Dollhouse and so because it didn't sell, it wasn't one of those books that sells in like a whirlwind auction or like a very quick overnight deal. Um, so it did take a bit of time and so by that point, I think, mentally, I had, I think I'd started writing another book and I'd sort of made peace to an extent with the fact that the first one might not sell. And so when it did, it was it was amazing.

Phoebe Morgan: 4:30

And I and I sometimes look back and you'll know this as a writer, obviously because when you become a more established writer, there's always the next goalpost and you always want the next deal and you want a film deal and you want foreign rights and the goalposts move. But I don't think I'll ever go back to feeling exactly how I did before I got published at all. Does that make sense? So I think, yeah, it was such a big life achievement for me that I wanted to achieve that.

Phoebe Morgan: 4:54

That sense of like yearning that I had in the years before the first deal has that I feel like it did resolve that. So I feel very lucky because that was such a big thing that I wanted, and to have it come true is something that I'm still very grateful for. And I do really try and hang on to that feeling of gratitude when things become harder, because it's a very you know, it's an up and down journey being an author and there are kind of highs and lows all the time, but I sort of always try and reassure myself with the fact that I will always be a published writer and that that deal did always happen, um, and I've been lucky to have subsequent deals, obviously. But yeah, I think it's it's important to remember that, that sense of how you felt right at the beginning. So so it was amazing and I feel I still feel very grateful for it.

Nadine Matheson: 5:39

Did you think, like somewhere in the back of your head, did you think, because I'm editor, because I'm normally the one who says yes to things, that I should be prepared when I'm on the other side? Or did it all just go out the window?

Phoebe Morgan: 5:51

So at the time I wasn't in the position that I am now. So I didn't have. Now I would think now I feel like I have so much more knowledge about the industry and the market and the process but at the time I did not have as much and the market and the process, but at the time I did not have as much and when I went out, so I actually trained to be a journalist before I was in publishing. Um, so when I was initially submitting to agents, I was still, I think I had left journalism and I had started working as an assistant in publishing. But I didn't. I was in non-fiction and I didn't really know about fiction. I certainly didn't know any fiction agents, and so I was just as like kind of terrified as anyone else would be.

Phoebe Morgan: 6:28

Um, and I remember like I used to read so many articles from other authors about, like, how they got published and the submission process, and now I kind of write those articles myself because I really want to give that information back and so, no, at the time I didn't really know what I didn't really know in the way that I do now. Um, definitely, now I would be much more like aware of the process and realistic about it. But I think again, it is hard to put those that you still have an emotional reaction to your own work. Even now I'm a you know more seasoned editor. I still can feel disappointments with my own writing and joys with my own writing and you still have that author side which is the thing that sort of keeps you striving for it, I suppose.

Nadine Matheson: 7:12

When did you know that you was a creative person? It's a question I started asking recently because I'm thinking a lot of people. Yeah, I'm not sure when people, when you, you either know really early on, this is what I would like to do, I like creating things, or it's something that probably materializes when you're doing something else later in life and you decide I need more yeah, that's such a good question and no one has ever asked me that.

Phoebe Morgan: 7:33

I think I did used to be quite creative when I was young so I read a lot and we didn't have a television. My mum was like quite anti-tv, so I was just a big bookworm and I did used to write stories so I used to. I remember sort of doing I think I would.

Phoebe Morgan: 7:47

They were like graph, I mean graphic novels, it's a very lofty term, but they were like you know, like they were little drawings. They were not graphic novels, they were like little scribble drawings but with like long stories that accompanied them and like unfolded a four sheets of paper. And I used to I do remember writing those I wrote one about a lighthouse keeper and one about a horse, and I was always doing that sort of thing when I was quite young, like as a child, like below 10 years old, I would say and I occasionally would win sort of like school writing competitions, or there was a competition where you had to design a book cover and I won that. And I mean, I'm rubbish at art, so like the drawings weren't very good, but I did always have that kind of creative streak, I think, um, but what I would say is that I never really understood how to turn that into a job, um, because I think when I was at school and university, I was always very good at English and so I sort of thought, okay, well, I suppose I'll be maybe like an English teacher.

Phoebe Morgan: 8:43

My mum was a teacher, um, for a long time, but she really put me off because she didn't like it very much. Um, so, but I was like, okay, maybe teaching, but I wasn't really that passionate about teaching. And then, like I said, I became a journalist because I thought, okay, that's the route I have to go down if I want to do anything to do with words, whereas actually I wish somebody had sort of said well, there's publishing. Like I didn't even think of publishing as a career until I was in my early 20s, so like post-university, post-school, and I certainly didn't think of being an author as a career. And you know, it's not my full time job now I do both, but it just I feel like there should be still more. I think it should be talked about more to people at an earlier age and I do try and do a bit of that myself and like give that back, but it's it's hard to think of being creative as an actual career choice. I think they don't make that very obvious when you're younger.

Nadine Matheson: 9:33

No, I've said it, not just me. Like I've had so many conversations on this podcast on in the past with authors where they've talked about being like, really creative, if not necessarily in school, but at home. You know, right now I said, like I wrote my own little projects. I said, go for my own, just do these little projects and write these stories. They're basically like rip-offs whatever I'd watch on tv and then you know you'd be writing in school, being creative in school, but no one ever said, okay, this the things that you love to do, which is also reading, you can also do this, and it's amazing that you can get all the way, like through university, and not even realize there's a route definitely.

Phoebe Morgan: 10:14

Yeah, I mean, there obviously are good creative writing courses now at universities, but yeah, I just don't feel like it was ever a big part of the curriculum. Like I just think, when I was at school as well, the focus was all on reading and comprehension and studying other people's work and obviously that is important as well, but they there was not much focus on actual creative writing yourself or even teaching you that skill. I just didn't feel like it was very much. Yeah, it wasn't very clear that we could do that, um, but hopefully maybe it's getting better, might be getting better.

Nadine Matheson: 10:44

I think it's getting better because I remember when I was at uni like a long time ago, no, it's so long ago but one of my friends, she did a writing and publishing degree but she got into it by accident, I think she was doing something else, decided she didn't like doing that and then they said, oh, you can do this. But she never went into writing and publishing, it was just so. I'm not even sure what those three years or four years studying that degree, even like I did, yeah, it's really weird.

Phoebe Morgan: 11:17

Well, it's difficult because and I think I mean less so on the publishing side, like that, is much more stable. There is a much more stable career path, um, but with writing I think it's so difficult financially because it's so varied. You know, you, you might earn a lot of money. You might earn really not a lot of money.

Phoebe Morgan: 11:32

I mean the vast majority of I'm sure you've seen all the surveys like a lot of writers do not earn a lot of money and so it's very hard to predict and plan out a career as a writer because you're so reliant and it's also very much not within your control a lot of the time, which is something that I think. I mean the writers that I work with as an editor I sort of try to help them with that because they can't control everything. Like the publishers control a lot, agencies control a bit of it and there's like the kind of market controls a lot of things. So all you can do as a writer really is try and write the best books that you can and you can do things to help promote them and that's great, but ultimately it's not a career that you can like always really harness and take control of, especially in the earlier stages, I would say yeah, you can't, you can't plan it.

Nadine Matheson: 12:17

Say like if you, if you were to be an accountant or an architect or even a doctor, then you know, as a doctor, like, well, I'll be like a trainee doctor, that's a thing, then I'll be a junior doctor and I'll be a junior for 15 years, then I could become a consultant and then move into specialisms with writing, like I'm gonna be a writer, okay, well, how much? What's the entry salary exactly? Isn't one?

Phoebe Morgan: 12:40

yeah, and there's and there's a lack of transparency around that as well. Like you might not, unless you speak to other writers or you have sort of access to that information. It's hard to know what you might get paid and at what time, and also, like I said, it's unpredictable. Like I've worked with writers who were sort of medium successful and then suddenly became very successful and vice versa. You know who've maybe had a huge debut and then really not afterwards, and so it's very difficult to plan.

Nadine Matheson: 13:05

Like you say, there isn't that clear career trajectory yeah, how do you manage, um, the expectations you said for writers who've had, like the crazy, crazy debuts where they're, they're everywhere? I always say on the side of a bus, because that's my dream, I want to be on the side of everyone knows. I want to be on the side of a bus, but you know, they have that amazing debut where they are literally everywhere, you can't turn and I'm not seeing them. But then they have that second book. In the second book, it's just, it feels like a trick. We might, they might do well, but because it's not as visible, yeah, like the first, how do you manage that with your writers?

Phoebe Morgan: 13:39

that's a good question as well. Um well, I'm not sure I try and do a good job. Maybe I don't always. I mean, you have to ask them. I try and just communicate as much as I can with my authors. So I currently have a list of about 25 authors, which is quite a lot actually, and I try to communicate with them, I try to be honest with them, but it can be difficult.

Phoebe Morgan: 14:02

Like it's obviously hard to give authors bad news. Like it's hard to tell somebody that they haven't got into a retailer or they haven't got the sales figures that they wanted or they haven't got the review they wanted, and it's much, much nicer giving good news. Like I love being able to give authors positive news. Obviously everybody does and that's always the goal. But I think as an editor, you you also can't control everything. Like I'm reliant on the sales team and I'm reliant on the marketing team and I'm reliant on Tesco and Waterstones to support my books, and so you sort of realize that that is just a process and that sometimes it's really disappointing for editors as well. Like if one of my books doesn't do what I wanted it to do, I will feel that like alongside the author. You know, maybe not as deeply, but I do feel it. So yeah, so you still feel that disappointment alongside the author and I guess I just try to give them context, like I try to say like this is sort of an average week of sales and you know, I try and just give them the wider context around the market and I hope that helps a bit.

Phoebe Morgan: 15:04

Um, but it can be hard and I think it's good for authors to. I think it's good for authors to be friendly with other authors, to be able to talk about these things and talk about the process. But I sometimes worry that you can also then fall into that trap of comparing yourself to other people. So if you're friends with a lot of authors, you you know you can't help yourself, but you want to know, like, what kind of retailers they've got and what kind of marketing they've got and what publicity they've got and and so I try and encourage my authors just to think of themselves as like that, on their own journey, and not to not to get caught up in the noise on social media and not compare themselves to others too much you remind me what I tell my um, what I call try and say to the baby lawyers when they're going out and I'm like you're robots.

Nadine Matheson: 15:49

I think to them all the time you're robots, don't worry about what's going on around you, you're just a robot, just have one job to do and do that job. It's not even about you. It's like, yeah, your client, but that's what I told them. But you have to tell yourself, whatever industry you're in, you have to tell yourself some kind of story in order to get through it.

Phoebe Morgan: 16:08

Definitely Be self-motivated, exactly, and I was thinking that the other day. Actually I was thinking about something non-work related, but I was saying to myself, like it's really all about the story that you tell around that and because we're storytellers, that is really helpful. Like you can look at a situation and feel negative about it, but actually, if you sort of look at it again from a different point of view, you can say, okay, this is how I'm going to choose to see this situation and that's the story I tell myself. And that applies to writing and publishing as well, I think. And it's making sure that you're yeah, you're happy with the path that you're on and if you're not, like you step, you can take the steps to change it. But none of those steps really involve other writers, because everybody's on their own path.

Nadine Matheson: 16:47

Yeah, it's all about mindset. I know a lot of times people don't want to hear that, but I'm like, no, it is about. It's about mindset. It's the stories you tell yourself and then what you need to tell yourself to get yourself over the next hurdle. Because there's so much stuff going on. You're watching what's going on around you and because of social media, everything is so visible.

Phoebe Morgan: 17:11

The biggest deals are just in your face as soon as you get, as soon as you wake up. Yeah, and I really try to talk to authors about that, because, especially so, we just had the London Book Fair a few weeks ago and we have the Frankfurt Book Fair in October time and it's the Bologna Book Fair at the moment for the children's side, and so I think at that point it can become really hard for authors, because there's a lot of big splashy deals announced and a lot of six-figure announcements and the reality is that there's so many deals happening all the time and a lot of those are for, you know, 10 grand or less than that, or you know, a medium amount of money, and a lot of them don't get a big splashy announcement, but they are still happening, those deals. And the problem with the book? Well, it's not a problem, but the fact with book fairs is that everybody saves up their announcements and often those deals were done months ago as well.

Phoebe Morgan: 17:53

But you can look at it and think, oh god, everybody's got something and and it's really important to realize that that's only like a tiny, tiny piece of the picture and actually there's a lot of other stuff going on and you know it's just great to be, to be in that world, like if you want to be a writer and you're getting published.

Phoebe Morgan: 18:09

You're already so far ahead of a lot of writers who never get near that and that's not to say you should just be grateful at all. You know, at the expense of everything else, like you, you should be treated well and I really believe that there are some authors who haven't had good publishing experiences and that isn't okay. You know, I think as publishers we have a responsibility to give writers the best experience that we are able to provide, and give them that honesty and support and transparency. And I do really try to do that on a personal level. But if you're feeling bad about it, you know you can look at all those authors who don't even get an agent and so you've got to kind of, yeah, own that success and and take a step back sometimes and think about where you are and feel grateful for that.

Nadine Matheson: 18:48

I think I was just thinking about what you said about the, the bookseller announcements, and a friend of mine I'd known months and months before I'd actually got her deal, but then we hadn't seen anything. All of a sudden it's in the bookseller.

Phoebe Morgan: 19:00

I'm like, oh yeah, I can't be excited because I got excited three months ago exactly, and we, you know, we do those things quite strategically and it's all sort of planned out behind the scenes, and so, yeah, it's important for writers to not think that everybody's having those big, splashy deals all the time, because they're really, really not you know, you said you have about 25 authors, which I think is crazy that you look after.

Nadine Matheson: 19:26

How do you balance? No, it is, it's mad. I mean. Then again, I think about you know, when I was I'd have, I'd easily have more than 35 places that I'd be working on at the time.

Nadine Matheson: 19:37

So you know it's not. I think, when we're looking at different industries and we had a number before, it's been oh my god, how could you? But you look at yourself. Actually. No, I probably did. I managed that massive number of people, so it's not unusual. But how do you balance it with? You know, right, because you're on your fifth? This is your fifth book that's coming out, yeah, in May. How do you balance that?

Phoebe Morgan: 20:00

um, I never really know how to answer this question. I think I just separate them out. So I really love my day job and I love working for a publishing house. I work for Hodder Stoughton now and I love my authors and so when I'm at work I'm really focused on that and I don't really think about my own writing at all. And then I write my own books at weekends usually and I write in a really intense way.

Phoebe Morgan: 20:25

So I might have like a few weekends where I can write a lot in one weekend. Like the most I wrote was like 20. I once wrote like 20 22 000 words in a weekend because I was just like I'm just gonna do this in a weekend, yeah, but that's what I mean. I'm a bit strange like that, because whenever I say that, everybody's like that's a lot of words, but I think think I mean they're not very good. You know, I'd have to go back and edit them. I can get in a mindset where I can, I can write really fast and then I'll just stop for ages.

Phoebe Morgan: 20:54

So I am not one of those writers who writes every day, or even writes every week or even every month, like I'll have like chunks of the year where I'm not really writing, and then I'll have like a chunk of time where I am and I often just yeah, we'll like put aside some weekends and just like really intensely focus on it then.

Phoebe Morgan: 21:12

And then in the week I just have to focus on work, because I can't really not, because I have my authors. But then I also manage some of my team and so that takes up time. And you know you want to develop those members of the team as junior editors and think about their development. And then you know I'm part of the leadership team at sorry, I used to work at HarperCollins. I always say it I'm part of the, that team, and so you're doing like those more like strategic things as well as part of the business, and so all of that takes up all of your mental energy. So there's no way I could then write when I got home anymore, like I used to when I was younger.

Nadine Matheson: 21:45

But now the job is too big, so I just have to separate it out it's probably a really unfair question to ask you know, because whenever I'm asked I'm like I don't know how I balance it oh, it's just my answer as well not full-time so.

Nadine Matheson: 21:59

I teach, um, yes, I don't. I don't go to court anymore, so, but I still teach, but I do that freelance. So, as in when, yeah, but when I was working full-time, I would say you just steal time. That's the only answer I could give you just steal time when you can, yeah, to write. I can't say I had a plan.

Nadine Matheson: 22:18

I definitely wasn't one of them authors and I'm still not one of those authors, like I'm getting up at five and I'll be at my desk at 5 15 and that's that's not me not me the most no, I think the most I've written in a day I know this is 7 000 that's only because I was in.

Phoebe Morgan: 22:34

Yeah, that was a lot, but I was.

Nadine Matheson: 22:35

But that's unusual because I think I was in Morocco and I knew I had to deliver. Um, I had to deliver the book, like on the Tuesday, and I'm like I need to, and I was in Rocco for a week at my friend's. She had this, she's doing this retreat, but I was just tagging along because I just wanted to sit by the pool. But I'm like I have to get this done so I can enjoy the last three days and that's the most I've written, but I don't think I could write that intensity.

Phoebe Morgan: 23:01

I think it depends. You just have to find what works for you, like the rhythm that works for you, like I'm the same as you, like I would not. I know that I won't get up at five and write like I just won't do it. So I'm not going to set myself that target, because I will fail and then I'll feel bad about failing and then that will become a cycle. But I can, if I want to just take a Saturday and write. I know that I can do that and I'm quite with deadlines, which I think comes from being a journalist, briefly, because it's very, very deadline driven. So if somebody gives me a deadline, I kind of back myself that I will usually meet it, unless there's like extenuating circumstances. So I think that helps me and I don't put myself under pressure to write every day. But I know some writers do and that works for them and so maybe they write more little than often, whereas I would write, yeah, a lot in one go and then not touch it for a while.

Phoebe Morgan: 23:46

But you just have to find whatever works for you and I think there is no rule book. So my advice, I guess, to other people would just be don't put yourself under pressure to do something that doesn't align with like who you are and like your personality. Like, if you're not usually an early riser, don't set yourself a target of becoming one just to write, but if you're actually someone that stays up a bit in the evenings, then maybe that's the time. Or if you're somebody that has free weekends, then maybe that's your time, and a lot of people that write are obviously balancing other things in their lives as well, and so it's just I think you've got to be realistic with your goals, because I really don't think, I don't believe in setting unrealistic goals, because then I think you just don't achieve them and then it puts you off.

Nadine Matheson: 24:22

So you have to set goals, but make them realistic um, like I, I need deadlines and I think, well, part of it comes from being a solicitor and always have you, always constantly working the deadline. But I remember with my second book I didn't. I didn't have a deadline. I had like a floating thing going on and then about half a year ago I emailed man where it's and I was like you need to give me a deadline, because if I don't have a deadline it won't get done.

Phoebe Morgan: 24:47

Yeah, I need deadlines. I'm the same. I think I, um, I think I've I've done the same. I think at one point I asked an editor to just give me a deadline because I knew if I had it I would meet it. But when it's sort of like, oh, don't worry, like take time, I'm like no, don't tell me that, because then I will take time and then I just won't do it. So I'm also quite deadline oriented.

Nadine Matheson: 25:09

Most definitely so a question I was asking. But when you're, what are you looking for? When an agent sends you a book and they'll give you the whole, this is the best thing ever, because they've got to do that, because it's there when they want it to sell. But what are you looking for?

Phoebe Morgan: 25:25

so as a as an editor, I the main thing I'm looking for is a very clear pitch to begin with from the agent. And I work in commercial fiction, so that means sort of plot driven fiction, fiction that often sells in the mass market. Uh, a lot of crime and thrillers. I do also do some romance now and I do some fantasy, romantic stuff, but mainly my background is mostly in crime and thrillers. So I'm looking for something that feels pitchable, because when I acquire a book I then have to pitch it to my acquisitions meeting, which involves the managing director, the sales team, marketing, publicity rights, everybody. So I have to be able to go into that meeting and say guys, I've got the best book for you. This is what it's about in basically like one or two lines.

Phoebe Morgan: 26:14

And often if I get a book in and I can't think how to pitch it in that way, I will turn it down, not because the writing isn't good, but because I know that I'm not going to be able to pitch it properly, and that is just so important. And I think that can be hard for writers to hear because it can feel like a bit invalidating and as if publishing is just such a business. But the thing is it is a business, and so I try and be honest with authors about that because I think it. I think knowledge is power in that way, and and of course we're also looking for brilliant writing. But the fact is that we need to be able to pitch it, and I think that's just the reality, because that then has a knock on effect. So our sales team have to then go to Waterstones and pitch it, and Waterstones and all the supermarkets and all the independent bookshops and other retailers are being pitched books all the time, from all of the publishers, all of the sales teams, and so we need to be able to make ours stand out and we need to distill the concept into a hooky pitch and we need to have a great cover and we need to sort of hit them with as much ammunition as we possibly can.

Phoebe Morgan: 27:18

So that's the first thing I look for and I look for the sense of voice. So is really important as well having a voice that really engages you right from the start, and I do think you can tell quite quickly. So most of the books that I've acquired in the course of my career so far I've known like fairly early on if I start reading, I think, okay, yep, I'm really enjoying this, I'm going to read the whole thing and it's quite it's. It becomes, it becomes apparent. When you start reading, you think, okay, this might be great, but it's just not for me, like it's not resonating with me. And the best times are when I can I start reading and I can immediately feel these kind of creative ideas happening in my mind. So I start thinking about what the cover might look like or what the title might be if we change the title, which we often do.

Phoebe Morgan: 28:01

Um, and, and the other thing I look for as well is an author that I can build. So authors with multiple good ideas, authors who take it seriously you know people like you who have come, you know, with a couple of book ideas potentially and, you know, are doing extra stuff on the side is always brilliant and it's not to say you have to do extra things. But I suppose I want to work with authors who take it seriously and who will work with me to build success, because it is a partnership. It's not that I can create success on my own as their editor. They need to be part of that and they need to be somebody who will put their all into it, and sometimes I publish one-off novels and that's fine. But ideally I want to buy authors who I can publish more than one book with and build up career wise. So I'm looking for that as well.

Phoebe Morgan: 28:46

And then the other thing to think about is the wider list. So our list at Hodder and Stoughton is quite large. We have a big list, we have a lot of authors, and so I have to think about where we have space. And if we've got somebody who's writing, say, police procedurals and they are sort of occupying that space on the list, I might not be able to take anybody else on in that space at that point in time, but I might look at the list and think, oh, I don't have anyone writing historical fiction at the moment.

Phoebe Morgan: 29:13

So I'd love to have that on the list because we will have the resource, we'll have the creative space to market that book properly, and it will. It will have its own. Because what you don't want is lots of authors writing in the same space and kind of cannibalising each other, because there is a finite resource within the publishing house. There's only so many marketing and publicity people, and so if we've got loads of books that are essentially doing the same thing. It's really hard for them to make them stand out. So I think about the space on the list, as well as the voice, the pitch and sort of how seriously the writer wants to take it all you know you're talking about pitch.

Nadine Matheson: 29:49

I've always said to um, like when I've been mentoring, um, yeah, writers and stuff, I've always said when they're like, well, how do I write a writer? You know how do I do a pitch, how do I come up with an elevator pitch? Because it's hard when you're being asked to reduce your I don't know your 80,000 or 100,000 word book to two or three lines, and I always just say to them look at the Sunday Times, um, the bestsellers, just look at their description of the book. It's just one. If it's 15 words like that, I think it's probably that's like the maximum and they're able to reduce it. I said you just look at that as an example yeah, I've given people that advice as well.

Phoebe Morgan: 30:23

And, um, I've got a website which is a little bit out of date but it's got, um, some helpful articles, I think well, not articles, they're like broad pieces on there, but one of them there's a. I put a screenshot of the Sunday Times and I said, look, really have a look at this, because you're exactly right, it does really distill it, um, and it's not always like the writer's job, you know. That's another reason why I think it's good to have a, an agent, because an agent should be able to help you do that, and the best agents pitch their books really successfully to us and and make us excited to read them, and so I I'm always. I mean, I know there are authors who don't have agents, and there's. There's a lot of different ways of publishing now. Like, even in the last five years, self-publishing has taken off to a greater extent, and you know book talk has changed things, so it has changed. But I still think that having an agent is a good thing because they can really help you with that sort of part of it.

Nadine Matheson: 31:11

So, now that you've been in editing for like ages now you are do you now apply? You know the things you're talking about as to what will make you say yes, do you now apply that to your own writing? Is that like your first thought, or is it just a story?

Phoebe Morgan: 31:26

I'm not as good at this as I should be, I think, yes, I definitely think about it, and at the moment I'm sort of thinking about ideas for book six and sort of I've started writing something, but in very early stages.

Phoebe Morgan: 31:38

So I do think about what's working in the market. But then I also sometimes do just sit down and write and see where it takes me and I might get like the idea for a character, or I quite often start with a setting and then I think I'll just start writing this and sort of see if it develops. And there is something quite nice about that as well, that creativity, and I think it's important for writers to feel that they can still do that, because what you don't want is to lose the joy of writing to the extent where you just feel like you're in a machine and you just have to write another story. And some people do that and that's great and they can be really successful. It depends what you want out of it, um. So yes, I try and apply them a bit, but but I still try and maintain a bit of just like go with the flow as well yeah, just being you, being Phoebe the orphan, just seeing how it goes but that that does not happen particularly successfully, so yeah, can you recognize Trent?

Nadine Matheson: 32:31

you know you mentioned Romanticy and to me Romanticy just seemed to have just come out of nowhere. All of a sudden it was everywhere. You know all over book talk, all on the bookseller, but because you're there, you know, right at the I say the early stage, you're there at the piece, at the places that we can't see as authors and readers. Yeah, can you recognize trends, or are you just as surprised as everyone?

Phoebe Morgan: 32:56

um, we try to recognize trends. I can definitely recognize when there is a trend within the market and I can recognize if I'm getting a lot of submissions from agents that are following a trend, like I'll be like oh, I've had a lot of submissions in this area recently, so that sort of starts to become a trend. The romantasy thing is interesting because people have been writing it for years and there have been some really interesting pieces actually from some of my colleagues who work in the science fiction and fantasy area and have done for a long time, and they've always sort of been there plugging away at it. But it's, you know, people didn't or I think people did read it, but it didn't get the kind of coverage that it's getting now, um, and so I think it's really great for those editors because suddenly they're having a lot of success or they're just being taken more seriously and it's not, you know, I don't think that's a good thing. I think the market or the industry can be quite snobby and I think sometimes people are like, oh, that's not for me. But actually, you know, like I said, book talk has changed a lot of things and the readership is there and it's huge, um, and I don't know.

Phoebe Morgan: 33:56

I'm not as involved. I have a couple of authors in that space, but I would not call myself an expert at the moment. I haven't't. You know, it's not. I'm more of an expert in crime and thriller. But I'm really enjoying finding out about that side of the market, because there are a lot of fans and they are very, very passionate and there's all these special editions and collector's editions and that's a whole side of the market that I wasn't that aware of before, because it doesn't really happen with sort of straightforward crime novels.

Phoebe Morgan: 34:25

Uh. So so, yeah, I think it. I think publishing also builds on its own success, so like there'll be a couple of successful books and then every publisher is like, oh, let's do some of this. And then it sort of catches fire and builds in the way that psychological thrillers did you know seven, eight years ago, yeah, and I'm sure then it will you know before, that sort of women's fiction and the Bridget Jones era and all of that stuff like it. You do see them go in and out, so I can probably see them coming, but more like they come towards you like a train and then you're like, ah, I'm gonna do something about this. So, um, yeah it's. I don't have a crystal ball like I wish I did um I wish.

Phoebe Morgan: 35:02

I could predict what will be successful. Because, also, people are still nervous, people still think, oh, will the book talk bubble last and will subscription boxes last and should we bank all of our money on these sorts of things? And so a lot of publishing? I mean, it is a gambling business that you have to really like be prepared to take risks sometimes and they don't always pay off. But I think, think for me, that's a good thing about working in a big publishing house because I have a really supportive team and manager and they let me take risks sometimes on books and sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't, to be honest. Um, but if you're part of a big, big business, you sort of have the um freedom to do that a little bit more, whereas I think if you were in a smaller startup, that might be a bit harder.

Nadine Matheson: 35:45

Does BookTok surprise you, or did it surprise you?

Phoebe Morgan: 35:48

Yeah, me personally. Yeah, I think so, and I actually, to be honest, I think it's.

Phoebe Morgan: 35:52

I think everybody, like publishing is still, can be a bit archaic sometimes, like it depends and then there are some brilliant, like newer publishers, particularly in the digital space, who are doing really exciting things and that's great. But I still think some of the bigger publishing houses are. I think we're often on the back foot a bit and I think it's been good for us to have a bit of a shake up and us to realize we don't know everything and that often you need to listen to readers, because readers are you know, we can't do our jobs without readers, so we need to take them seriously. And writers, of course, like we need to listen to other people, and I think sometimes publishers can fall into the trap of thinking, oh, we know everything and we control everything, and we shouldn't, because that's arrogant and we need to sort of listen to what readers are telling us. And if readers are saying we want romantic and we want these books and we're prepared to pay 22 pounds for them, then great, we need to listen to that.

Nadine Matheson: 36:45

I'm gonna go back to your own writing. What was it like moment when you had your own book, so your first book, the dollhouse in your hand? What was that moment like for you?

Phoebe Morgan: 36:55

so I remember, because my editor at the time was a woman called Charlotte, who is now one of my really good friends, who now works at Orion, and she gave me a copy and it was great. It was so exciting because I just you, you know, you can't you kind of imagine it and and now I am really used to it like I'm quite blase about it and there's sort of like my bookshelf is here and there's like random copies and there's like foreign editions and you just do get used to it. But definitely, yeah, holding it in your hands is like a really exciting moment and and it's always exciting when um copies come in. I've not actually got a finished copy of the trip yet.

Phoebe Morgan: 37:36

This is a proof, um, but yeah, getting your finished copies is always exciting and I find that with with books I'm publishing as well, like when the final copies come in for some of my authors it's it's because it's such a labor of love. You know it starts off with this idea and then this manuscript and then for it to be like a physical thing that other people are going to read. It's great. I mean, you must feel the same, do you?

Nadine Matheson: 37:57

yeah, I do every time, because when I got my proof copies for the kill list I can't remember when I got them, maybe a month ago and the box arrived and I knew and I'm like, oh my god, it's a box and I know what's in the box, even though I know what's in the box.

Nadine Matheson: 38:12

Yeah, it's still. You still, you're still excited. And then, when you're opening, you're like, oh my god. It's like, yeah, all those sweat, the sweat and tears, literally the sweat and tears that went into this book and now it's here in my hand and it's like it's that last. You know you're nearly there. You know that in a month or so time it will then be on the shelf. It doesn't get old. Every time I walk into a bookshop and see it, I'm like, oh one of my books.

Phoebe Morgan: 38:37

I think, especially if it's been a difficult edit, like for this one, the trip it was a nightmare, to be honest, and so there were times where I thought, my god, I'm actually just this is never gonna get published. Like it's I mean, it was under contract but I just thought we're never gonna get there. Like it's too difficult, and I nearly gave up on it and I deleted, like I threw away like a whole manuscript, which is awful, um, but so to have it. I did dream about the moment that I would actually be able to have it in my hands. Um, so I think, especially if it's been like a difficult process, then it's really exciting to have it, because you're like it's done, can't touch it, I can't do any more edits on it.

Phoebe Morgan: 39:10

Yeah, I was just gonna say then what happens is like readers find mistakes and then leave grumpy amazon reviews and then you're like, oh, right now I've got to change that for the reprint. But no, once it's printed we can, we can edit the ebook. So if there's errors that come out, then we can edit the ebook and re-upload that and we can change it for reprints, but you obviously can't change the the first print run with the mistakes if they exist, that's gonna.

Nadine Matheson: 39:36

So you can't edit yourself, or can you?

Phoebe Morgan: 39:40

would like while I'm writing, yeah, um well, like I self-edit, but like I couldn't be my own editor, no like I have an editor and um, an agent and stuff, and so they do all that stuff.

Phoebe Morgan: 39:51

So I can't no, I mean you obviously self-edit, like I write a first draft and then I go back through and I I sort of, yeah, I do the editorial process before it goes anywhere. But I think you really need that extra pair of eyes and you need somebody external to tell you, because you get you know, it's like if you've been writing it for months and months, like you're so close to it that you can't see the wood for the trees and also I just get absolutely sick of it. Like I'm just like, oh my god, I cannot read this bloody book again. I swear, yeah, I can't read this book again. Um, but then having some space from it is is always nice. And then when it comes back, you're like, okay, I feel more ready to tackle this now.

Nadine Matheson: 40:27

I don't think there's that one author that I know that I've spoken to have not said the same things. Like you get to a point in the book you're like I don't want. I really I don't want to see you again. Yeah, I don't want it coming back. I can't, I can't read this same paragraph. I can't deal with these characters anymore like I've literally I'm done you're so done. Yeah, when you get the final sign off yeah, you get the final sign off from the proof.

Phoebe Morgan: 40:50

You're like thank god, I know yeah, and I don't mind doing the copy edits and I don't mind the proofreading stuff, like because by that point I feel like all the hard work is done and I actually don't I quite enjoy those because you feel like you're close to the end. But yeah, you definitely reach a point where you're like, if I have to read this opening, especially the opening, I'm just like you read the opening so many times that you can always recite it and you're just like I literally never want to think about this book or these characters, ever, ever again the strange thing is you can't see what's good about it, which is like an odd thing to say, even though, like your editor, even the copy editor might be in their little comments in the box going, oh my god, this is great.

Nadine Matheson: 41:25

But you can't see what's amazing about your open or any part of the book anymore, because you're so blind to it yeah, yeah it is hard yeah definitely okay. So what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career so you got you? Could you have to answer this question twice? So what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career as an author and then as a editor?

Phoebe Morgan: 41:47

hmm, um, that's a really good question. I guess, just as an author that you do, you know you do have to be resilient and you do have to believe in yourself. And that can be really difficult to do, especially if you have had rejections, which I did, and it can be hard not to feel negative about it. But I think, just I think, just like a bit more self-belief um would be, would have been good, um, and it's, but it's so easy to say. Looking back, like if somebody had said, like you will get published and like this will happen for you, it would have saved me a lot of angst, but you obviously can't do that. Like there were times where I was like it just is not going to happen, and especially when I used to be in like a little writing whatsapp group and a few of my friends in that got deals before me and I that was really hard. Like it was hard, I felt really jealous and and we talked about it, you know, and one of them, um, she's very successful now and she I remember her saying to me it was really hard when one of the other girls got a deal before her and like I think it's important to be honest about those things. So I think I'm sorry this isn't really answering the question. I guess I just wish, yeah, that I had had a bit more self-belief, um, and not been so hard on myself about it, um. And then as an editor, uh, what would I say? Um, I mean, I'm lucky. You know, I really enjoy my publishing career.

Phoebe Morgan: 43:14

I think just, yeah, I think again, just sort of being able to, to know earlier, like I was saying before, like I think if I had pursued it as a career. It's hard because you don't like, you know, I worked as a journalist and I made some really good friends who are still really close to me, so I don't regret it because of that. But I'm not a journalist anymore, so I sometimes worry that that was like a wasted time and I wish I'd known that publishing was like an option earlier and that I had gone straight into it. But then you, it's hard to, it's hard to like, regret bits of your life really, isn't it? Because you sort of think, well, I probably got something from it, even if that was just friendships, um, but I do think that publishing should be clearer and writing should be clearer as a career from an earlier age, um, so I, like I said I do try and like talk to people about that, because I think a lot of people see the industry as being quite closed.

Phoebe Morgan: 44:09

I think there's a sort of sadness I feel when people think, oh my god, it's just so hard to get into and it's, you know, all the same people and it's not diverse and and and those things are true like it can be difficult and we have got a long way to go in terms of diversity. So that's not. I'm not saying they're not true, but I think we need to break down those barriers and I don't want it to feel like an elitist industry where we're all gatekeepers and and we don't want writers, because we do want writers, like we're always. I'm always wanting to find new voices and new writers and new talent and I hate the idea that some writers feel that that's not the case.

Nadine Matheson: 44:42

I think that's if I'd ever did a poll, collated, or every time I've spoken to an author about what they would change about the publishing industry. I think it would probably be like nearly 100 percent. It would be about the transparency. I think everyone says it's transparency.

Phoebe Morgan: 44:58

I wish I'd known certain things before I'd got in, yeah, or even whilst they're in it yeah, definitely, and I still think there are so many authors who I'm surprised at the fact and I think because I do both, I do I probably am a bit more transparent than some editors, because I think I sometimes talk to authors and they're like oh, I've got no idea what my book sales even are, when I'm like, have you never asked? And they're like, oh no, I can't ask and I like, of course you can ask, it's your book, ask how much your sales are if you want to know. Some people don't want to know and that's fine too, but people shouldn't be afraid to ask questions. I never mind if my authors ask me questions.

Nadine Matheson: 45:31

In fact I'd rather they did, because I don't want them sitting at home thinking oh God, Like it's always fine just to get in touch and I want everybody to feel that way, but I'm not sure that they do. Before I go on to the trip, which is your fifth book, can you remember your most challenging acquisition meeting when you've had this book and you're like this is the book, it needs to be out there, it needs to be reader's hands and someone's been like pushing back on it.

Phoebe Morgan: 46:01

That's a good question. It hasn't happened loads. I would say I have been quite lucky. I usually get a good level of support, not always, but, um, there was one which hasn't been announced yet which I did end up getting. But at the time when I initially brought it up, people were a bit resistant, um, and the author's quite well known, so, um, I can't say who it is, but there was a bit of resistance to their profile and like whether it would work, and blah, blah, blah, and I really thought it would. And then months later it sort of came back up and then by that point everybody sort of changed their minds and they were like, oh, actually I think it would work. And I was like, yes, as I said six months ago, um, but that way, and it can be challenging because you know, you start to doubt yourself and and you obviously you know I trust my colleagues opinions and I don't want to buy books where not everybody is bought in. So the important thing in acquisitions meetings is you've got to listen to people as well. Like you might believe in something and like with that one I sort of did pause it for a bit and then they did kind of come around. So that's great.

Phoebe Morgan: 46:59

But there have been times there was also an author, like within the last year, who has been published elsewhere and she was looking for a new home and I loved her writing and I still do. I think she's fabulous. But that didn't get through the meeting because people were a bit worried about her previous sales record, um, and whether we would be able to do enough to sort of turn it around. And that was really sad because I then had to call the agent and say, look, I'm really sorry, like I can't make you an offer. I really want to make you an offer but I can't, and so that that was challenging as well.

Phoebe Morgan: 47:30

But but there's no point me pushing something through acquisitions if people aren't with me, because then I'll have bought it, and then the worst thing is to buy a book and then not be able to deliver on what you're trying to do. And sometimes we can't like. Sometimes we'll say, right, we want to get you into the supermarkets but we might not, um, and then we can't control all of that all the time. But I think it's important that we try and do the things we've said we will do and that we are clear with the authors that we're doing those things and if we're not getting the results we want. That's like a team effort and a team disappointment rather than a lie. Does that make sense?

Nadine Matheson: 48:03

yeah, no, it does, it does make sense. So your fifth book. Did you think you'd get here book number five?

Phoebe Morgan: 48:09

no, it still feels really weird, like when people say, oh, that's quite a lot of books, I'm like, I suppose, but like I don't really, I don't really think of it and I like I think it is because I work so hard in the office like I don't. I don't feel, like I'm I don't know. Yeah, it sort of just happens, it doesn't. I mean, I do it obviously, but like I don't, I don't spend all my time thinking about my books. So when I I'm on book five, I'm like, oh, how did that happen? That's weird, but I'm very grateful, you know, it's great to be able to continue writing and I'm lucky to have those books out in the world.

Phoebe Morgan: 48:41

And the nice thing about writing, you know, and continuing to write is that you know some people might read the trip and then they might go back and read the dollhouse and the others and sort of discover you. And there are some writers who sorry, some readers who I know have read all of them, because they'll send me nice messages or they'll say, oh, I've been waiting for your next book and that's really lovely, and so, yeah, it's. It's great to be able to sort of just keep on doing it really, and and each book has different things. You know this one has got a US deal, which I'm excited about, and you know there's sort of different milestones that happen with each book and I'm excited to see what readers think of it, because this one, like I said it, was a nightmare editorially. So I hope that. I hope that people like it.

Nadine Matheson: 49:24

And if I put you on the spot and say what is your?

Phoebe Morgan: 49:26

elevator pitch. Oh god, I'm so sorry. It's about two couples who go on the holiday of a lifetime to Thailand and encounter a man from their past who is set out to destroy their friendship group. That's a pitch that I kind of just came up with off the top of my head, but yeah, it's set in Thailand. It's about two couples, um, and they have sort of different ideas of what the holiday will be like. They're in the early 30s and one couple are very well off, one couple are not so well off.

Phoebe Morgan: 49:55

So there's that sort of tension, and I wanted to write about the tension that happens between friendship groups, especially in your 30s. I think there's a lot of sort of like life changes and people comparing themselves to other people, and so there's a bit of that in it. But it's also a thriller. So they encounter a man who knows one of them very well and is set out to make her life very difficult, and it's about how he sort of worms his way into their friendship group and what secret is he holding over her? Um, so yeah, you'll have to read it to find out what the secret is did you know you was always going to write thrillers?

Phoebe Morgan: 50:30

or did you know? To be honest, the dollhouse initially was not really a thriller. It was essentially a sort of rambling story about a father who made his two daughters a dollhouse, so it was more women's fiction, I would say it was sort of like general but flabby. That I sent it to Camilla, who became my agent, camilla Bolton, at Dali Anderson, and she sort of helped me turn it into a thriller and she was like there's, these thriller, it always had thriller elements, like it definitely was quite. It was always quite dark and the ending was dark and it always went in a dark direction. But I never thought of it as a thriller. So we kind of crafted it into a thriller.

Nadine Matheson: 51:07

We had to add in quite a lot of tension and then since, since then I've always been like, okay, yeah, this is a thriller, um, but no, it didn't actually start out with that in mind yeah, and this is so random, not including the books that you've um bought but do you have like a personal favorite in terms of thrillers, like something you will go back to or recommend to new writers? If you want to write thrillers like this is what you should read.

Phoebe Morgan: 51:35

Well, I remember when I was starting off I read a lot of Claire McIntosh, who was brilliant and very supportive of other writers, but I remember her first one. I I went back and analysed it and I remember like writing little notes in the margins hope she doesn't mind me saying this, um, it's a compliment. I just thought she had excellent pacing and I was like, how is she pacing this so well? I also think Shari Lapina is really good at that and Paula Hawkins, like those writers who just really keep you reading compulsively. Um, but there's loads of crime writers that I love. I love Liz Nugent. Her latest one is amazing Strange Sally Diamond. It's Water Stone's book of the month right now. I think it's fabulous. She's very talented.

Phoebe Morgan: 52:12

I love Lisa Jewell. I love Louise Candlish. I love a lot of like domestic suspense writers I really enjoy. Um, louise Doughty, I think, is amazing. I really liked her Platform 7 book and Apple Tree Yard, obviously, which is quite old now, but I think there are some thrillers who sort of you can go back to them because they really stand up Like they might have been written a while ago but they are just like brilliant in terms of plotting, pacing, keeping the reader hooked and there are sort of tactics around that. You know the way you you end chapters, the way you seed tension through the novel and I'm quite interested in how people do that. I always think of it as sort of layering, like you have the plot and you have the story and then you can go back through and sort of layer in the fear and the tension and the red herrings, and I think that's quite a skill to be able to do that, and I actually don't think everybody can do that.

Phoebe Morgan: 53:01

Um, so the best thriller writers are the ones that really really keep you guessing and the ones that you know that they really take the time to get to know their characters, because, although plotting is really important in thrillers, having a great set of characters is really key as well, and Liz Nugent is actually always very good at that, and her characters are always sort of awful, like they're not very likable, but they're brilliant and they're very dark in a kind of Ripley-esque fashion. So, yeah, I think those, yeah, there's loads of writers I really admire, but that's just a sort of selection.

Nadine Matheson: 53:30

Okay, so Bebe on to the last set of questions. Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Phoebe Morgan: 53:38

Definitely an extrovert. And I had to do I have to do personality quizzes, yeah, at work quite often, and I came out like 90 something percent extrovert and it doesn't. I think it's. I'm not, you know, I'm not always like the life and soul of a party by any means, but I definitely.

Phoebe Morgan: 53:51

I'm a very social person and my job is really social, so I love talking to people, I'm interested in people and I get a lot of energy from interacting with others. I don't I don't really need loads of time on my own, like I obviously do have time on my own, but it's not something that I.

Nadine Matheson: 54:05

You know, some people need to sort of recharge their batteries and like I don't, I don't really get that, so definitely extra, but I think I'm going to be so surprised because I honestly think in all the interviews I've done so I think by the time we're recording this, I think I've interviewed had 62 or 63, probably probably more than that, because I pre-recorded um loads. So maybe like 70 interviews and I honestly think maybe about five of them, five of my, five of my guests have said they're extroverts oh really yeah, normally everyone's either.

Phoebe Morgan: 54:42

Majority of them have said they're introverts, and then we have a hybrid, but not many people admit to being extroverts, which is why I was like, wow, yeah, and I mean it is a funny thing because you think writing, you know it's quite solo, but I don't want to be. That's why I don't want to be a full-time writer either, because I love being around others and I like the office and I would go crazy just being on my own all the time.

Nadine Matheson: 55:00

I just wouldn't enjoy it, yeah. I think that's probably why I still teach and I do things to make sure I do leave the house, because it's fine being inside. You know writing being at my desk, but they come to. I always feel like I get cabin fever. Yeah, and I'm like no, no, no no, do you think you're an extrovert?

Phoebe Morgan: 55:17

then no, I think I'm a hybrid, but I'm sure, if I did, I need to do one of those tests yeah see what they say you can do them for free online as well, but I did like a really in-depth one that the company paid for, and so I was like, okay, this really I already thought yeah yeah, I'm gonna find.

Nadine Matheson: 55:33

I'm gonna find an in-depth one if it's, if it says I don't think I'm an introvert, I know I'm not an introvert because I need I do need to be around people. Okay, so what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Phoebe Morgan: 55:47

oh, um, god loads. Uh. Well, I think, you know, getting into publishing, transitioning from journalism to publishing, was hard, because I had sort of made that choice to be a journalist and I was like, right, this is what I'm going to do with my life. And then it was quite scary having to sort of row back on that and be like, okay, I'm gonna change things up. And I wasn't very old, you know, I was like 23, so I'd hardly got very far into the journalism career.

Phoebe Morgan: 56:11

But I always really admire people who do change careers, like my mum changed career when she was 50. She was a teacher for years, like I said, and then she's now an ecologist. She runs her own ecology business, which I think is amazing, and she did that later in life. And I always believe that you can change your circumstances if you want to. You know, if you have the means to and you're lucky enough to be able to do that, then I think you should. You know, I don't think people should stay in careers that they're not happy with just for the sake of it.

Phoebe Morgan: 56:38

So, um, so that was like quite a big risk and, um, you know, I'm really glad that it paid off. But it was challenging because I was sort of having to apply for jobs whilst working in journalism and I was having to sort of sneak off to London to do these interviews and I was up against all these people who, you know, had come straight out of university and gone into publishing and were already sort of in a different you know, further ahead than me and I had to sort of try and convince people that just because I had become a journalist didn't really mean that I couldn't be an editorial assistant. So I think that was and that was a big you know, that was life-changing for me because I found like my dream career basically, which I'm very grateful for.

Nadine Matheson: 57:16

I don't normally do this, but I've got two questions from that. What sort of journalism were you doing?

Phoebe Morgan: 57:21

Oh, just local news. I'm making it sound like I had a illustrious journalism career.

Phoebe Morgan: 57:24

I really really didn't, but I did do the NCTJ training course. So I did my shorthand, I did my law exams, I did my public relations exams and you know that was. It was a lot of work. And then I was a local news journalist. So I used to work for a paper in Guildford and I covered a lot of court reporting actually, which was quite interesting, and then a lot of very dull news stories which were not at all interesting um, some political stuff, uh.

Phoebe Morgan: 57:52

And what I realized was just that I just was not cut out for it, like I just didn't love it. And you have to love it because the pay is quite bad, the hours are really long, it's really hard and I just did not want to do it. And then now that I'm in, publishing like those things kind of still apply, like it's also quite a hard, intense job. I mean it's hard, you know it's. It's not that it's not like I'm down the coal mine, but I mean it's. You have to really love it to keep persisting and publishing and I really do so that doesn't feel hard to me.

Phoebe Morgan: 58:19

But journalism was just not for me and I also just I always wanted to do something more creative, and journalism can be creative, but local news is not really like you know, you have a very specific timeline and deadline and it's who, what, when, where, how. And I always wanted to write more and like write longer articles, and you know, obviously what I wanted to do was actually write novels, um, and there wasn't really space for that in the local paper in Guildford.

Nadine Matheson: 58:46

I always say to um, the baby lawyers, when I finish doing the course with them, and they're normally I say the baby lawyers because they've just started their training contract and they're in that very, very like. They've literally maybe just this is their second week of work and they've sent them out on the course with me and I'd always say to them you can change like, don't feel obligated to feel like I need to stick in this one specialism or even just change law completely. I said, I said you can change and it is okay. It's not failure. No, you know what this isn't for me and I want to move on and do something else yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 59:16

I'm an enabler.

Phoebe Morgan: 59:18

Yeah, I'll tell people. Yeah, I agree, and I think it's better actually, and I love Elizabeth Day's podcast how to fail I'm and I think it's better actually, and I love Elizabeth Day's podcast how to fail. I'm obsessed with it it's so good.

Phoebe Morgan: 59:27

And I love hearing those experiences of people who have made changes or have gone through difficult things, and I think I would rather go through that than get to the end of my life and think, oh, I've stayed in this job or life that I didn't really love and I was too scared to take the risk to do something different.

Phoebe Morgan: 59:42

And it is hard. And I've had other experiences like that, you know, in other parts of my life where I've thought, okay, I'm going to take this risk and it's really hard, but you kind of have to have the belief that you'll find the thing that's right for you and it's. I think it's usually better to take the risk because, yeah, I don't know otherwise. I think, you know, people can feel that they have to stick to a career path just because that's what they decided when they were young. And actually we change as people. You know, why would the thing that you decided at 18 be the thing that fulfills you for the rest of your life? Like that doesn't really make sense. So I'm a bit of an enabler as well.

Nadine Matheson: 1:00:16

Right, I don't mean this to sound offensive, but you know, when you applied, you decided to go into publishing. Did you know exactly what you wanted to do in publishing? Were you just like I just need to get my foot in the door?

Phoebe Morgan: 1:00:31

no, that's not offensive at all. Um, I I would. So I did know that I really would prefer to work in fiction, but my first job was in non-fiction and so I really applied to everything, like I just wanted a foot in the door, and I think I still think that's good advice, because once you get a foot in the door, the industry is actually very welcoming and there are lots of ways to sort of move sideways and develop your role within your role, um, and so I still recommend to people that are sort of trying to get into the industry to apply for different parts of it. Like I applied for jobs in the rights team, publicity teams, marketing teams, editorial teams and I got into editorial, but it was in non-fiction and originally it was actually in children's non-fiction, which is really far from what I do now. But there are always ways to.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:01:19

I think if you're kind of tenacious enough, there are ways to sort of get to where you want to be. So the the hardest bit is getting in the door, and then there are more opportunities. So I think some people feel like, okay, I want to work at Virago and I want to work in this kind of specific fiction and that's the only job I'm going to apply for, and I think that's a mistake because that will be very competitive and actually you're better off spreading your bets a bit and then, once you get in and it's all so connected like, you can learn about the different parts and actually if you've spent a year working in the foreign rights team, you can come to a fiction editorial team and bring all that knowledge with you and it's a very collaborative industry. So all of the knowledge you're gaining in a different department or a different genre will become valid anyway. So I always say really just apply and try and get in somehow, and then you can figure out exactly how you want to specialize later on.

Nadine Matheson: 1:02:08

I think that's advice that can apply to any industry. I've said it a lot. You know, you just want to get in. Sometimes, when it comes to quality, like training, contracts and privileges, and things are so hard and sometimes I've had to say to, like students, just apply for anything and then you want to get qualified and when you get qualified and you're in, then you're able to look around the landscape and move around because you're in now and you've got there.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:02:35

Yeah, absolutely, I really agree.

Nadine Matheson: 1:02:38

So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Phoebe Morgan: 1:02:45

Oh, I don't know. I would say, yeah, I think, just don't let things get to you so much. You know, I quite hard on myself sometimes and I think when I was 25, I was just in the process of, yeah, I just got my agent, or I was getting my agent and stuff, but actually, you know, I should have just enjoy it more as well. You know, like, I think you know like I was like, oh God, like it's hard, I keep getting rejected, etc. But actually, yeah, just sort of trying to enjoy the process as well and enjoy the writing.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:03:22

And you know, you don't, you don't get that time back and it's it's hard if you're sort of quite sensitive person, which I am to like sort of spend time feeling quite sad about things or if things aren't working out in the way that you want them to. But actually then you look back and you think, oh, why did I spend so long worrying about that? You know I should have just thought, right, okay, that's what it is, I'm gonna get on on with it, I'm going to keep a positive attitude. Um, so I guess, yeah, just sort of try to enjoy things a bit more. And and also, just, I was always very like, oh god, I've got to do this by this point and I'm still a bit like. You know, I've got to achieve this by this time in my life and actually it's just rubbish.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:03:54

You know, people achieve things at all different times in their lives. I mean, look at Bonnie Garmis, who wrote lessons in chemistry and she was quite a bit older and that's really inspiring. You know, you can write at any age and you can change careers at any age and you can fall in love at any age. You know you can do all of these things and actually we live in a sort of weird society where everyone's like these 30 under 30 lists or 25 under 25, and you feel this intense pressure to get everything ticked off by that age and actually it's just kind of nonsense and it just comes from capitalism. So let's just not knock it on the head. Um, yeah, I think yeah, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 1:04:29

I remember saying to my mum like I think I must have been 27 and because I like to do things a long way around, so I was doing. What was I doing? I hadn't. I think I hadn't started my training contract yet. I think I must have been about to. I was doing something. I remember going on the phone to her oh my god, mum, I won't. I think I hadn't started my training contract yet. I think I must've been about to. I was doing something. I remember going on the phone to her oh my God, mum, I won't be qualified until I'm 29 years old. I'll be so old Cause, you know, if you've done it I say the academic way, or the yeah, if you've done it the academic way, where you, you know, you've gone to university and immediately gone, finishing university.

Nadine Matheson: 1:05:06

You've gone to university, then immediately gone, finishing university. You've gone to law school, then immediately after law school, yeah, you then get the training contract. Then, theoretically, you'd be qualifying at what? 23, 24? I said that could happen and I was like I'm so I'm gonna be so old at 29, and when I look back now, I'm 40. So I'm like what the earth was wrong with me it's mad, isn't?

Nadine Matheson: 1:05:20

it.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:05:21

I used to think that yeah, I used to like when I was about 26, I was like, oh god, you know, I'm getting really old, you know, and now I'm 34 now and I'm still doing it to myself. Now I'm like, oh god, like you need to do this, like you haven't got a house, you haven't got all this, you know, you haven't done all this stuff. And I know, and I know that by the time I'm say, 45, I'll be like oh you're, you're actually still quite young then, or whatever like. Because now I look back to when I was 26 and I'm like, why did I think all those things like I was really? It's so silly, um, and also there's nothing wrong with being old.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:05:51

I feel like society puts this weird thing as well. It's like, oh well, you've all got to be young and stay young all the time, and we kind of really fetishize it and actually, you know, I think that's really odd as well and I and I love the fact that there are more like women in the media now who are talking more about it and you know, broadcasters and journalists and writers and and and saying that actually, you know, the older you get, the more experience you get and the more confidence you get and I kind of am excited to have to get, to continue hopefully, like gaining those things. And yeah, I think that applies to writing as well, because I think people feel pressure to be a sort of young hot debut writer and actually it's just kind of all a load of nonsense.

Nadine Matheson: 1:06:32

Before we go. But do you have any? If you're meeting new authors, like who are, who are over 30, maybe like in their 40s and their 50s, are they aware of those 30 under 30 lists?

Phoebe Morgan: 1:06:46

I mean, I would say I'm just looking at my list I would say the majority of my authors are definitely over 30. Maybe have one or two who aren't, but, like the majority of my authors are definitely over 30, got authors in their 40s, 50s, 60s, like a range, um, I don't know, I've never asked them, I don't know. I mean, I feel like every now and again there's a sort of another piece about it and about those lists being damaging, or, and then I wouldn't go as far as to say they're damaging. Like you know, we should also support young people, like that's also great, um, but I think it just has to be a balance really, um, and you definitely shouldn't internalize any of that, although it's very easy to say. Like I said, I do as well.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:07:24

But I think the more people sort of talk about the fact that it's nonsense, the more people can see it as such. I mean, I think it's always good to reward people and have awards for people to strive for, and I'm not saying I'm not anti people being under 30, obviously, like that's great as well. But I think we just also have to be like actually writing is just a skill you can have at any age and that's the beauty of literature. You know, people bring different perspectives and you might have a different perspective age 20 to age 60 and age 80 or however old, and you know, it's all just really about the storytelling and what kind of story you want to tell, and there's no rules around that.

Nadine Matheson: 1:07:59

So finally, phoebe Morgan, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?

Phoebe Morgan: 1:08:04

so you can find me on Twitter, which is Phoebe underscore a underscore Morgan. You can find me on Instagram, which is Phoebe Ann Morgan. I do have a Facebook page, which is Phoebe Morgan author, but I do not use it that much anymore. And then I have a website which is um phoebemorganauthorcom, and that does have quite a lot of useful resources on for writers. There's a bit about the submission process, about the acquisitions process. There's loads actually. There's lots of different interviews and kind of publishing insider information. It is a bit out of date, so don't judge me, but I will update it later this year. So, yeah, you can find me online and I would love to hear from you.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:08:41

I'm always really happy to answer questions about the industry and, um, you can buy my books. Um, they're available in all good bookshops and Amazon, and the new one will be in some of the supermarkets from May. Um, it's out on May the 9th and it's called the Trip, and I have four other books. They're all thrillers and you can read them all in any order and they will stand alone. Get asked that quite a lot. They're not. You don't have to read them in any order, um, so, yeah, if you read them, I would love to hear from you. It's always so nice to get messages. I don't know if you find that it's always just like so uplifting to get a little message saying no.

Nadine Matheson: 1:09:14

Those are the best messages, whether it's an email, a dm or even just a comment on your social media like oh, that's so good.

Nadine Matheson: 1:09:20

It like yeah it did you know what you wanted to do was because have create some kind of emotion in someone. Remember it was like, oh my god, I can't believe they did this as a character. Or like, oh my god, that was the best ending ever. Yeah, it's always good. I have a really random question before I go, because on social media there's a lot of um, I'll say there's a lot of advice on there in terms of either it's publishing advice or writing advice from people who really should maybe not be given advice. Yeah, how do you feel when you see these random posts giving crazy writing advice or publishing advice?

Phoebe Morgan: 1:09:59

I feel like it's unfair, like I worry more about the publishing stuff. Like I, there are vanity publishers out there, you know, who say you need to pay. You know, right, encourage writers to pay for their work to be published, and that never that's not traditional publishing like we pay you. That's how it works. So I worry that people exploit writers because a lot of people feel like it's their dream and they're very passionate about it and they want to have it, and so I worry that then there are people who take advantage of that, and I I do encourage writers to just be wary of that.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:10:27

Um, and yeah, sometimes, I mean sometimes it can be frustrating, like if people say things and I'm just like this is just not accurate and you haven't checked and you don't know. So please don't put this information out there because it's it's unnecessary. Um, but yeah, but there's a lot of brilliant resources out there as well and, um, you know lots of legitimate websites that you can get information, and there's the society of authors who are really great at like, helping authors deal with difficult situations. So I think if you're ever in any doubt about it, then you know, just make sure you're checking it and, like you're seeing who this person is.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:10:58

And you know, these days anyone can publish a book and put it on Amazon, but that doesn't mean that they necessarily know all the. You know that's fine, great, but that doesn't mean they're qualified to talk about the traditional publishing process, because it's very, very different. And some people set themselves up as literary agents and I think you need to be like OK, what clients have you got? What book deals have you actually done? Like, check you know, do the research a bit because bit, because, again, I know it can be really tempting to just think, oh great, they're an agent, they'll make my dreams come true. But you need to sort of interrogate what their success rate is like and how do they deal with their authors and what will they promise for you and what can they deliver on and where's the evidence of that? Um. So I think it's just exercising a little bit of caution, um, and, yeah, making sure that you're you're going into those things with your eyes open and I would say follow Phoebe Morgan.

Phoebe Morgan: 1:11:46

Follow me and I'll give you a legit advice. Yeah, she has really good advice.

Nadine Matheson: 1:11:49

I'd like to just leave me to just say Phoebe Morgan, thank you so much for being part of the conversation. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the Conversation, all you have to do is email theconversation at nadinemathersoncom. Thank you, and I'll see you next week.