Ola Tundun: From Private Musings to Public Acclaim, A Narrative Journey

Have you ever found yourself at the crossroads of passion and profession, wondering if the risk of following your dream is worth taking the leap? Today I'm in conversation with  Ola Tundun, a writer who turned the page from private musings to public acclaim, to bring you an episode that shines a light on the raw, often untold stories of making it in the publishing world. From the emotional rollercoaster of securing a book deal to the courage required to surmount rejection and criticism, Ola's journey is a testament to every writer's battle with self-doubt and the pursuit of authenticity.

Ola Tundun's debut novel, Roommates, described as a sparkling  romantic comedy was released in 2023. Her second novel, Complicated, is out now:

Complicated
Ariella doesn’t want drama. Well, that’s too bad.

All she wants is to stay wrapped up in her grapefruit-scented love bubble with reformed playboy Caleb. But then her new boss turns up, the high-flying, high-maintenance Melissa, who has a mysterious history with Caleb.

Suddenly Ariella finds herself working miles from home, fighting with Caleb, and wondering where it all went wrong?

And just as they’re about to sort it out, real trouble comes knocking…

Follow Ola Tundun

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Transcript

Ola Tundun: 0:00

I think a lot of reviewers realise when they leave your review is how much of themselves they are giving you, how much of the way they think, how much of the way they meet these characters. They're exposing of themselves. And just from reading your review you can tell so much about the person that has written that review. You can tell so much about the person that has written that review.

Nadine Matheson: 0:25

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, best-selling author, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well. I hope that you've had a good week and, even better, I hope that you had a good bank holiday weekend, because in the UK yes, yes, we had Monday off and I always find that this bank holiday, the one they call the spring bank holiday I just find it weird. I mean, I'm not saying I don't want it, like I'll take all the bank holidays you can give me. However, I just find it weird. I just feel like they just tagged on this random bank holiday at the end of May for no good reason. I mean, they call it the spring bank holiday. Why not give us another one in July, call it the summer bank holiday, and give us one in autumn, call it the autumn bank holiday. Listen, the point is right. Just if you're going to throw them out, just give us more.

Nadine Matheson: 1:20

Anyway, I hope that you enjoyed it and, speaking of enjoyment, I know that you enjoy the conversation podcast. Speaking of enjoyment, I know that you enjoyed the conversation podcast. I mean I can see the stats. You can't, but I can, so I can see the stats and I can see that you enjoy the conversation with Nadine Matheson, and I really enjoy having all of these conversations. All of my guests are fantastic to talk to. I always learn something new and I hope that you learn something new too. So I'm really grateful to all of you for tuning in. But what would be really nice, what would be lovely, in fact, if you were to leave a review. You can leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You can leave a review on Spotify. You can actually review and leave comments on individual episodes on Spotify and on YouTube Music. So, wherever you're listening to this podcast, if you can leave a review, I'd be really grateful for that.

Nadine Matheson: 2:13

Oh, and you can also support the podcast on Patreon, because did you know that I have merch? I've mentioned it before, but I think you need a reminder. I have merch, which is basically we have some amazing mugs and notepads and pens, and if you support the podcast on Patreon, you can receive exclusive merch and you can also receive a shout out on the show. So go to my show notes. You will see the link to support my show and you can sign up to all the different tiers and receive your merch now. Oh, and one last thing before I go you can still receive 30% off the cure list on harpercollinscouk. So the cure list is the latest book in my detective inspector angelica henley series. It's currently available in hardback and you can receive a massive 30% discount if you go to harpercollinscouk. Once again, the link is in my show notes.

Nadine Matheson: 3:16

Okay, finally, let's get on with the show. Today I'm in conversation with author Ola Tunden and in our conversation we talk about how being the best failure you can be is a good thing, the journey of finding and losing an agent in order to sign with your dream agent, and what it means to elevate other voices. Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Ola Tendon, welcome to the Conversation. Thank you so much for having me, it's an absolute privilege.

Ola Tundun: 3:48

Actually, I'm really excited to be here.

Nadine Matheson: 3:51

I have to tell you because I'm watching, there's a timer on my screen which says how long I've been recording, for I've been recording for about four or five minutes, and so Ola and I have been talking and chatting and laughing away and I thought actually we should get a start on this conversation. So, ola, my first question for you yeah, always say I do my research, you know, do my google searches and stuff and. I would know it's a good one. It's a good one.

Ola Tundun: 4:20

I was just gonna say it's not true it's not true, but it's not true.

Nadine Matheson: 4:24

Well we'll find out later, okay, but I was looking at the Bookseller, which is a trade magazine for publishing, and back in April last year April 12th 2023, the Bookseller announced Storm Publishing acquired free novels from you, so you got a free book deal. So I just wanted to know what was that moment like for you? I can see you shaking your head. What was that moment like for you?

Ola Tundun: 4:53

it was incredible it when I found out I couldn't believe it and then immediately thought they're gonna find me out, like they're going to realize that it's been a mistake and I now have to pretend that I know what I'm doing. I fell into this completely. So I've always written. I've been writing since I was seven years old. I've always written. I've been writing since I was seven years old and but no one has ever seen anything that I've written Nobody, and so at all not even my husband. And he was always like, oh you know, I'd be doing like maybe like a masterclass with James Patterson or just something that I was always like listening to different authors. And my husband was like, do you know what? I'm going to get you a writing afternoon at the Guardian. And it was being. It was being led by a gentleman called Doc X. So I go and I take like a little thing that I'd written, I listened to this class, realize I absolutely know nothing.

Ola Tundun: 6:09

And so when the pandemic hits, one of my friends, miriam, was like what are you going to do? You're an absolute workaholic, you never stop. This pandemic is going to kill your mental health. And I said, well, I've been writing this thing so and she said give it to me now. I'm surrounded by very powerful, strong women who are honest and wonderful and loving and brilliant. And so she said give it to me now, and I'm going to tell you the truth.

Ola Tundun: 6:40

And so I gave it to her and she came back to me four days later and said you have to publish this. So she was the first person that read anything that I've ever written. So I laughed and I said OK, and then took my manuscript away. Now that we're in a pandemic, I will just start editing it and start maybe learning about different ways to maybe publish. And I found an editor online. I have no idea how I survived this, by the way, because it honestly is everyone's publishing horror story. I found an editor online, sent my manuscript to him because at the time it was 180,000 words. This, this one book, hold on 180,000 180,000, because I overwrite like yeah even.

Ola Tundun: 7:38

I was find it hard to reach 180 it's because I've been writing this stupid thing for like so long, like I didn't even, like it wasn't even, like I wasn't even. It was just going to be another thing that I would write that no one would ever see. Um, so I sent it to this editor and I said can you cut it down? I obviously don't know what I'm doing. Please can you? And he no problem, I'll cut it down for you. And it comes back three weeks later and he'd only taken out 10,000 words and he was like this is an absolutely incredible book. I couldn't cut it down. And that's when I was like there's something wrong here. I'm speaking to the wrong person. And he said oh, by the way, I've sent this to this agent that I met and she wants to represent you. And I'm like wait, hold on, hold, on hold on a second. All I asked you to do was edit this thing. And so this agent calls me and she says let's have a conversation, we have a conversation. And she said I'd like to represent you. And I said it's a really thick book for something that isn't Lord of the Rings. And she's like yes, but I think there's a market for it.

Ola Tundun: 8:58

Um, I went along with this agent and she was great and wonderful, but she couldn't sell the book. And a few months later we were like, right, no problems at all, I think we should part ways. You're not able to sell this book. And I think she was agenting sort of as part of another job. So I was like no problems at all. So I then started really looking for an editor, because you know, when you've written something and you're like it can't be right, this thing is too long and I've written it, so I know it's not perfect, it's got to be crap, surely. And I found another editor who was incredible. He's ex-Penguin Random House, so I knew he knew what he was doing. He used to be a commissioning editor there and I sent it to him and he said this is an incredible book, but we need to work together to make sure because no one's going to buy this book. At the time it was like 170 something, thousand words.

Nadine Matheson: 10:03

So this is what I was going to ask you. I just literally, I just want to stop you because and I'll let you carry on, but so you know, when the first agent yeah, you know, when the first agent was submitting the book, was she submitting the 470 thousand plus words?

Ola Tundun: 10:18

no, she, no, she wasn't. She had she sort of written a summary and she wanted to include some images. And it was my first conversation with anyone ever. So I'm like, okay, if you want images, you can do what you like.

Ola Tundun: 10:37

Because, yeah, never in my wildest dreams, while all of this was going on, did I honestly think this book was going to get published. It was COVID and I was along for the ride. It was something to do. I had this big project, it was something to learn. So I didn't ask any questions because I'm like nothing's going to happen.

Ola Tundun: 11:01

Because I'd been on Twitter and I'd seen just incredible people writing incredible things but having lots of submissions after submissions, and so I was like it's not going to happen for me, right? Who do I think I am, you know? So I was actually really just enjoying myself. Actually I was just on the journey, and so I found the second editor who was like let's work on this together. He and I managed to get this book down to 140,000 words, and then we we needed to start taking out chapters. And in the meantime, I well who would become my agent on Twitter? And I tend to gravitate towards just sort of kindness and just like people I'm not an intense person at all and she was just incredible. She was funny.

Ola Tundun: 11:59

And when she opened her submissions I got straight in there and she came back to me and said actually, um, I'm not sure I'm feeling this book, but let's have a conversation about it when, um, I'm less busy because my submissions box is full. I've got lots of stuff going on. Let's have a conversation in a few months. You know, I can give you some notes on this and we can work on it. And I was like great fine, not an issue at all.

Ola Tundun: 12:30

I'm sitting on a bed working in Toronto on a Sunday, trying to get back home to my family, and she calls me and says I don't know what I was saying a few months ago I would love to represent you. I was saying a few months ago, I would love to represent you and my heart and my stomach. This was like my dream agent. I'd submitted to two other agents and one had asked for a full manuscript and the other said actually, it's not for me. So I had to go back to the lady that asked asked for the full manuscript to be like I'm really sorry, but I now have a new agent and it was just I.

Ola Tundun: 13:12

I still don't know what I'm doing, nadine, I'm seriously just faking the funk every day with this industry and my my stomach was just. I couldn't believe that I'd landed the person I really wanted. And a few months later she's like oh, um, we need to have a conversation. There's this new um publishing house. It's really interesting. They're doing some really fun stuff, and so I get on the phone to my agent and this publisher thinking you know maybe, and I get a fever thing. So when it happened, I'm about to get found out.

Nadine Matheson: 13:57

I'm about to get found out.

Ola Tundun: 14:01

They're poor book sales. So for me it has been a completely unbelievable journey and it has been nothing. But I am literally here, jesused, and I know that. I've been trying to understand the industry and I've been reading about incredible authors, that god um, the guy that wrote Gaslight incredible, incredible book oh, femi Kiyode, yeah, like. He's like, oh, I've got imposter syndrome. I'm like you're incredible, he is incredible. I just turn up and I'm like, hey guys, I'm one of you now and it's humbling. I don't feel like I belong here. I'm excited, I am doing my best to be positive and to contribute. But this whole thing right up to this point has been a learning experience and that's kind of so. When I got the news, I was was just like it wasn't happening to me.

Nadine Matheson: 15:30

It wasn't happening to me you know, I'm listening to your story and what I'm finding really interesting and this is the thing, it's the one thought it keeps going round and round in my head while I'm listening to you is that in the beginning you said no one knew that you wrote. Okay, you've been writing since you're seven. No one knew that you wrote. Your husband hadn't seen anything that you wrote. But then we go back to 2020. That's locked it. That's locked down. That's beginning of Covid. We go back to 2020. You're working on this. Clearly, you've been working on it for a long time because you've got 170,000, no 180,000 words. So, like you started writing it on a weekend. You've been working on this for a long time. And then your friend says show me what you've got and you just hand it over. How are you able to do that, considering that you'd never shown anyone your work or no one knew that you were, that you're a writer?

Ola Tundun: 16:26

I was able to hand it over because so, um, a lot of my day job relies on me being on planes. I'm on planes all the time and everything in my life shut down, and this one friend is the type of friend actually, to be honest, all my friends are like this. I'm very lucky she's. This one friend is the type of friend actually, to be honest, all my friends are like this. I'm very lucky. She's the one friend that will tell you this is rubbish, give it up. Why bother him do? Why bother do something else. So she's very honest, and I was almost expecting her to come back with, I mean, it's okay, but if you change this and if you change that and to get her feedback to just work on it, what I wasn't expecting her to say was you need to get this published. It's incredible.

Nadine Matheson: 17:19

But don't you have any fear, though I said showing some, because always it's such a moment of vulnerability. I think, as a writer, the first time you have to show someone your work, and it's one thing showing them your work, but then for you, you knew you was going to get a critique of that work from your friend, because she is that sort of person. So that's what I was trying to get at. It's that moment that your mental state to get you from no one knows I, no one knows that I do this. I haven't told anyone that I do this, but now I'm just handing it over yeah, that's exactly what happened.

Ola Tundun: 18:00

I love her and I trust her and I was like I've got nothing better to do. Do your worst. I honestly was not, because, with all the things that I've written, I've always written and finished it and thought, well, that's crap and you know. And so writing for me has always been an outlet. I've written horror, I've written thrillers, I've written poetry that no one's ever seen, because I'm like, okay, I've completed that, um, and I've just always done that. So this just happened to be the one thing that I had in front of me. It was silly, it was goofy, it was quirky, it was interesting, it was a little bit dark and she was like what are you doing? I'm concerned about your mental health.

Nadine Matheson: 18:39

I was like, yeah, have a look, this is what I'll work on this, and that was it but she was concerned because she knows you to be a busy person, as you say, you're a workaholic, you're someone who's always doing something. And then we all found ourselves in this state where you everything stopped, and I always said lockdown, planned the pandemic, that whole. It showed you who you were and, in some cases, showed you what you're meant to be doing with yourselves, and no matter whether you're living in, living with yourself or living with five other people, you that. I think that's the first time for a lot of people. Yeah, it was the first time for a lot of people. They're actually sitting with themselves and asking themselves questions because there's nothing. What else is there to do?

Ola Tundun: 19:28

what did you do during the pandemic?

Nadine Matheson: 19:31

what did I do? What did I do during the pandemic? Um, because we went into lockdown in March, didn't we? I think, march 2020? Yeah, so March 2020, we into lockdown. I'd already decided the year before that I was taking a break from practicing law. So from June the previous year I'd already stopped, but I was still teaching and I was working on the book. So because I'd already gone into that state of slowing down, in a sense, I think I just kind of carried on. So for me, that didn't really feel like there was much of a change. I was just already doing what I'd already been doing for the past six months prior. The only difference was that I didn't have that, like everyone, I didn't have that freedom to just book a flight and go somewhere or just go out to lunch and meet someone.

Nadine Matheson: 20:23

You know I mean everyone was in that same position, so I was just doing what I was, what I'd been doing for the past six months.

Ola Tundun: 20:30

I just the jigsaw man came out. Didn't they come out during the pandemic?

Nadine Matheson: 20:39

yeah, no, yeah it did. It came out during the second lockdown, so it came out. Yeah, february 2021, that's when it came out. So that whole period from March 2020 through to February to the following year, to February 2021, it was. It was a state of me just working on the book, so I was still doing edits on the book and this is when you learn.

Nadine Matheson: 21:00

Yeah, you know, because you, you'd know the same thing is that you write the book, you submit it to whoever it gets submitted to, then gets picked up, and then that's when you realize you're not done. That's when you realize this whole thing, this is now exactly. You're like no, this is now the process is actually starting and now the actual really hard work starts. So I think that whole period of time was just taken up with me editing the book, um, and then I was doing a lot of online things because there's nothing else to do so.

Ola Tundun: 21:31

That's why.

Nadine Matheson: 21:31

I've seen a lot of online events because everyone started doing them and then February 2021, but I do remember thinking in the summer of 2020. Well, the time the book comes out, we'll be out of lockdown, everything will be fine, we'll be back to normal and we would just went then we went into that second lockdown? Yeah, so, yeah, yeah. So for me things hadn't changed, I just had to adjust. But I then started teaching online, which I hated doing.

Ola Tundun: 21:58

But then you know, you just adjusted to it, but I tell you what lockdown worked for you, because the jigsaw man is absolutely incredible. I really hope it makes it to like team b. If Latasha Lynn does not play, I'm not even interested. Like, who do we need to fight Nadine? Who do we need to fight Nadine? Who do we need to fight I?

Nadine Matheson: 22:26

don't know, but I'm prepared to fight. I'm prepared to fight to get it done. Well, not only did it work for me, it worked for you, though, as well, because if it wasn't for that period of time in which you'd stopped and forced you were forced to stop it wasn't something that you voluntarily would have done, then your novel yeah, your novel wouldn't have well, not that it wouldn't have happened, because it happened, you'd written it it just wouldn't have found itself on the shelves doing nothing, yeah so you know, you said you.

Nadine Matheson: 23:04

You were just expecting the response from your friend to be this is rubbish. Give up the ghost, go back, you know. When this is all over, when lockdown's over, just go back to work like, forget this. And that didn't happen. What did you tell yourself in that moment?

Ola Tundun: 23:21

I told myself. Actually, I told her she was crazy and was just like let's just open some red wine and drink over Zoom together. Because I think you're right, I think there's something really interesting happened in the pandemic, because I had nothing to do, because I had nothing to do, and one of the things that I think struck me I've always known that I'm an ambivert, so I get my energy from silence and just quiet, and when it's time to go, you go. One of the things that really struck me was I was actually willing to sit with this book. When she was like, oh, it's incredible, I was like it's not, it's not really. But she actually sparked the idea of go and find somebody else that tells you that this book is rubbish. Go and find a professional editor to tell you that this book isn't good. Go and find somebody else to tell you what's terrible about this book and then maybe fix it. So when she said that, I was like you don't know what you're talking about, you are crazy. I'm going to go and find an editor that's going to tell me what I already know, know, um, and when that experience came back and was different to what I was expecting, I started to think maybe there's something here, just maybe.

Ola Tundun: 24:58

But you know, the book, the first book, is down to we got it down to 115,000 words and I think the process of being able to write something and be told actually it's not rubbish, and then work to get it to a place where you can look at it and think, okay, maybe actually it isn't and maybe I do have something here what was a really massive mental and emotional leap for me. I'd been on Twitter stalking all of you incredible authors for months. Before I looked, even thought about actively going out there because the first agent found me through this first guy. And when that, when I was just like because it was my decision to end the relationship, because I was just like it's not right, this isn't you know right, this isn't you know, this isn't there was just no belief whatsoever that I thought I'd written something that was worth reading. So for me it was easy to to be like, oh, the agent thing isn't really working, maybe we should go our separate ways. And she's like I'm gonna sell the book and I'm like it's okay, you know it was. It was really nice.

Ola Tundun: 26:26

So it wasn't, and the only reason I really reached out to the three other agents I did was because I fell in love with the woman that that is now representing me, emily Gernister, at DHH. I fell in love with her over Twitter. Um, she was just incredible. And the other two ladies I wrote to. They just seemed like nice, kind human beings, but I was not at any point expecting to get a yes from anybody, so I've been ducking and diving under the radar, pretending I'm one of you guys, but really not.

Nadine Matheson: 27:02

Oh, you are one of us. Whoever one of us is, you are one of us. I have my two questions, actually. The first one is like did you ever have failure in your life you're like when you're growing up in school or has it always been a case for you that failure is not an option?

Ola Tundun: 27:27

I mean, I come from an Nigerian family, no-transcript. But if you're going to fail, fail, giving everything, like don't leave anything on, don't, don't hold anything back, give it your everything. So if you fail, you take what you learn from that failure. You didn't fail passively. Or if you're going to fail, fail actively, right, give everything you have and if it doesn't work out, learn. It's like be the best failure you can be.

Ola Tundun: 28:14

That's it. So you won't not everything is going to come your way. We're very realistic people, but we're also quite joyful people, so we'll go into it knowing we don't know what's going to happen, but you give it everything. And so, yes, I have failed multiple times. I have enjoyed failing multiple times because I think one of the things that my parents taught me is the most essential thing they taught me was to just forgive yourself. You know, if things happen, they don't work out, it's OK. Whatever you can learn from that, learn it, move on to the next thing or approach it again and and and be better. So, yes, I, I have failed many times, many times, and I've enjoyed every single failure I have I have. I can't say that I have a. All you have to do is ask me about my ex-boyfriends. I tell you all about them. Failures, very enjoyable failures, some more enjoyable than others, oh God.

Nadine Matheson: 29:16

But I think that's where it's not that kind of podcast.

Nadine Matheson: 29:21

No, it's not that sort of podcast. That might be another podcast we might do later on. No, but I think you know. Know, when you talk about failure though I guess I'm not going to say where a lot of people go wrong, but it's how they choose to view failure. They, some people, can view failure as being being that's the final, I don't know nail in the coffin. That's the fun. The doors come down. They see failure as the end. They don't say god.

Nadine Matheson: 29:49

I'm going to start quoting from. I've been playing Star Wars all weekend Jedi, fallen, order and Survivor. I'm going to be quoting Star Wars. They don't see failure as being the actual path to achieving what you actually want. Because sometimes failure is not a failure, is not the end. Sometimes failure is it's a detour or it holds up a mirror to to what you really want. And I think if you know more people looked at it that way instead of looking at it as the end, it's all over. Let me just give you know, just throw, throw my dreams and aspirations in the bin. Yeah, I think if more people looked at the other way, then there'll be more of us I say more of us achieving what we want in life when did you has this is?

Ola Tundun: 30:36

is this how you've always viewed failure? Or did something happen and did that then sort of make you pivot or change the way you? You viewed it, saying it's really interesting because it's something that I have been taught to embrace. But sometimes with other people, something pivotal really happens that changes their perspective and I just wondered if that was that was what happened with your view of it no, I, I have no idea where this attitude came from, where this thought came from.

Nadine Matheson: 31:12

I've always known, I'm always the sort of person if anyone, if something went wrong. So oh, let's just say, for example, like you felt, I mean, I failed exams before.

Nadine Matheson: 31:21

That's nothing new but if you failed an exam or you didn't get the job that you want. You know it's all can be interpreted as failure. But I've always had the sort of attitude of I'm not wasting my time worrying about what's gone wrong. Let me take that energy and pull it into fixing it, and I've always had that attitude. So I mean it's probably not a good attribute of mine, because where I can have being patient with people who will sit and moan and go oh, you know, go over, but why it all went wrong, why you know why it broke down, why they didn't get what they wanted, why this didn't happen, I'm like, listen.

Nadine Matheson: 31:59

I said if I spend all this energy going over and over and over what went wrong, we need to put that energy somewhere else. So I think that's why. So I always tell everyone I messed up my a-level, something terrible. I know why that happened, I know why I messed them up, but when I messed up my levels, you know you have it doesn't mean you don't have your moment of oh my god, it's all over.

Ola Tundun: 32:23

Like the world has gone and what am I gonna do?

Nadine Matheson: 32:25

yeah, what am I gonna do? I'm not saying I didn't have those moments, because I did and you do in life, but I let the moment happen and then, okay, I've had the moment. Right now I need to fix it. So that's why I think you know, failure is not, it's not, it's not, it's never the end, never. Because if I thought failure was the end, I definitely wouldn't be sitting here doing what I'm doing. I definitely wouldn't have qualified as a solicitor. I definitely.

Nadine Matheson: 32:54

Yeah, after I'd submitted my first I mean the very first book, I wrote um god, when did I write god back in? I've still got it somewhere, let's say the early 2000s. You know, I said I wrote this book and I had no business sending it off to anybody. I sent it off to an agent and it got rejected. But you know, if I dealt, if I'd fallen into that moment of the rejection and I dwelled in the rejection, then I just wouldn't have bothered right anymore. But I was like I'm very stubborn, I'm like all right, fine, that's your, that's what you think, I'll just carry on. Yeah, so I think we need more stubborn women, more stubborn women, more stubborn people.

Nadine Matheson: 33:33

I think it's just not listening to, not listening to the noise and the chatter, but not only that, not only what other people tell us, but what we tell ourselves, because you know, if you keep telling yourself you're not good enough and that is rubbish, then you know you won't get what you want. But I think the difference with you is that you are able to tell yourself not even tell yourself like you knew what was wrong with it, which is the difference. You had your book. You wrote this book. You knew it was too long, you knew there was issues. Okay, let me see what I can do to fix this and who can put. Who can help me fix it yeah, I think that's it.

Ola Tundun: 34:12

I think that just having that I again it was about failing grandly, like if I did absolutely everything I could and it was still not great. I I could sleep at night. I think sleeping at night is really important to me. So knowing that I left, I held nothing back and nothing happened, was enough, was enough. But the book got to the best I felt it could be and that was enough for me. Um, the the publishing thing was just like a weird, incredible blessing, but the aim was just to get it to some, to somewhere where I was really happy with. And then I started playing around on Twitter and thought, yeah, why not?

Nadine Matheson: 35:09

Well, this was the second question I had. Is there? Was there anything in your other life? Okay so, your working life, your profession, the one, the job that has you on planes and has made you a workaholic Is there anything in that life that has prepared you or made you be in a position that you're able to deal with this now publishing stage, this writer stage of your life?

Ola Tundun: 35:34

um, that's a really good question. Uh, the answer to that is yes, um, in my, my day job, it is my job primarily to set people up for success. When something big and wonderful and incredible is happening, it is my job to put everybody else, apart from myself, in front. And so, when it comes to writing, there's something really comforting about putting these characters in front and then sneaking away and getting them to do whatever they're doing, and I could be quite happily sitting in my pants at home having tea and biscuits. You know, there's no focus, and I think that what my day job well, it's also, I suppose, my personality type. But what my day job and my personality type, um give to this writer life is you. You can, you can be in the quiet and just do really outrageous things and blame other people for it, or put the people, or put other people in front.

Ola Tundun: 37:01

So, um, I think that's prepared me and I in my day job, I see a lot of people that really want fame and want the limelight and want to be popular and want to be out there, and I've seen the pitfalls of that. There are very few advantages to being famous. Perhaps financial advantages are always really good. Perhaps perhaps financial advantages is always really good. Um, but really being able to see other people make those steps and see how those steps have maybe affected them has really solidified the type of writer that I want to be, which is someone that quite happily just sits in the back, comes on for chats, says whatever I like, have a bit of a joke, and then just disappear again.

Ola Tundun: 37:54

I'm not sure if you've seen any of my Instagram stories Completely unserious. I'm not a person that's going to be doing TikTok dances. I'll be posting other people doing TikTok dances, so it's so, it's um, so it's my, honestly my TikTok. I have one TikTok video. It literally looks like I'm being held hostage. So it's like it's just not. It's not, and I really admire writers that can put themselves out there and put you, you know, really be vulnerable and give advice, but it's just so. It's just so different to my personality type and the type of writer that I would like to ideally become, and so a lot of this is a little bit uncomfortable, but having characters out there that do whatever they like while you hide behind them I this is a little bit uncomfortable, but having characters out there that do whatever they like while you hide behind them, I think is is a wonderful thing that my day job helps with.

Nadine Matheson: 38:56

I think, though, that you know life a lot of life is is how we deal with those uncomfortable moments and getting through those uncomfortable moments. But I think, for writers and I I say this a lot because this is something I firmly believe I don't feel that every writer needs to be on every social media platform going. I feel like you need to, you need to do what fits your personality, and you need to do whatever you do needs to be, or it needs to be, authentic. It needs to be a true reflection of you. So if you don't I mean I listen, don't get me wrong, I'm not I have no intention of being on TikTok, dancing or doing any. If I dance, I do it in my house.

Nadine Matheson: 39:38

You can't see right now, but I'm just doing dancing on the screen. But my point is that you gotta do what's authentic for you, and you know I can be on tiktok, but I do, but I'm, you know, I like to talk, so I would say my little piece and I'll disappear. You know I do my podcast, because that's where this is like my happy medium. You know I do my instagram, but not everyone wants to do that, not everyone wants to feel, not everyone wants to be exposed like that. So you need to find what fits and not be forced into anything but writers that are exposed.

Ola Tundun: 40:17

They're writers that do tiktok and writers that do the instagram and writers that are constantly on it on the internet. You know, doing and tweeting are doing the Lord's work. Because it's because of those writers that people like me that are insecure have no idea what I'm doing. You know you can go to someone with experience that's sharing their knowledge. So you're absolutely right, it's about authenticity. So it's, you're absolutely right, it's about authenticity. I think that writers out there that are giving it the most on social media are helping so many people. Um, and we sometimes forget about that, especially when there's like, some dodgy discourse going on about I don't know or like do you people have books to write? Like, I mean, I won't lie. I.

Nadine Matheson: 41:13

I don't understand the comma discourse. I like I see it and I'm like I in the Oxford comma. I'm like I don't understand, I really don't and I'm not going to get involved.

Ola Tundun: 41:24

There's another one about prologues. Yeah, there's another one about like, like I, that beginning of this year, um, I was still high off the fact that I published a book. So the first book came out on the 20th of september, the second one came out on like the 5th of january I think. The third and the last, final one is going to come out in September. So I would have had three books in about a year come out, and all of these are like I've had to write them. And then, yes, you do. At the beginning, at the beginning of this year, I remember thinking, oh my goodness, I'm so lucky. Like how is this even possible? And then there was a scandal about some author that was going around down voting other people's books on goodreads. They were like giving people yes, you don't have a contract to fulfill. Like, you don't have books to write. Like, where do you, where do you find the time?

Nadine Matheson: 42:24

like last, so last year, sorry, um, I don't know what. Yes, I don't know what happened. What was going on in the universe in the ether in the latter half of 2023, with authors doing the utmost to get themselves cancelled and succeeding to get themselves cancelled?

Ola Tundun: 42:45

it's just, it was so, it's just really odd. So you, you, you do. You do have to contend with that, but just there's so many incredible authors out there that are so supportive that you know, that are just constantly sharing knowledge and you're just like. These are the people that really I have stood on their shoulders to at least find a tiny space that I can occupy in this industry, so that you know, so that they're real positives and there's clearly some weird things that go on, but what industry doesn't have weird things going?

Nadine Matheson: 43:22

on. Oh wait, listen, there's not one industry in the world, not one profession in the world where which doesn't have its small corner of weirdness, of people, as I said, people doing the utmost to get themselves cancelled. And I just think you know your job as a writer, as a human being, is to take a look, acknowledge it and then move on. Just keep it moving and don't get involved in it. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I have, I have moments where I have my say, but usually it's because it's they. Someone would say something that irritates me so much, like you know the author who was down um downgrading her fellow authors. You know, fellow debuts on Goodreads it was.

Nadine Matheson: 44:02

It was very weird. And then I think what's even weirder not even what's weird, just that's what makes you angry is then the fact that the excuses she gave to basically engaging what you can only call racist behavior um, you know that that was. That was even worse. You know, you said you get the discourse about whether or not you should write a prologue, which I take great offense to because I love a prologue and I write prologues. But I think you know, this week yeah, I think this weekend I got my and normally said I read stuff and I keep it moving. But I think, yeah, this weekend I got annoyed and I was on threads because some this writer decided to post that. Um, what did she post? She was basically posting that she said you'd basically I'm paraphrasing she's basically saying that you'll be a fool to think that you can survive as a writer on one income. Let me say that again, yeah. So she was basically saying that if you think you can just have be a full-time writer and solely survive on your income as a writer, you're full right. And then she was saying I've got so many jobs and I've had this success.

Nadine Matheson: 45:13

And I reposted because what I said was that I think it's and I understand. I think it's disrespectful and I think it's rude to tell people that you are full for having an aspiration. We all want to be full-time writers. No one wants to be doing multiple jobs, you know. You want to be making a living doing the thing that you love and I don't think you should be calling people foolish for wanting that. So yeah, and people had some people coming back at me. It's like well, she's being real. You can be realistic. We don't have to be rude to people but also, you know it costs nothing.

Ola Tundun: 45:48

To just be kind and generous, like, why would you go out there and demotivate anyone that was thinking, actually, I really would like to. It has happened. You know there are full-time writers that live off their earnings as writers. Of course it's a challenge, everything is a challenge. You don't wake up, you know, one morning and decide you're going to be one thing. You have to have the experience, you have to work for it, you have to. You know everything has its season, um, but I yeah, it is demotivating for someone that actually is like gosh. Writing is my passion. I would love to to make a living out of that, but it's, it's I, it. It astounds me, it honestly. The one thing that really astounds me on the internet is just how, how people veer away from just being kind to each other like it literally costs.

Nadine Matheson: 46:42

It costs nothing no, it costs nothing. But I think a lot of people are just everything they do, what they do on the internet. It's all performative. You know they're looking for a reaction. They're not. There's no authenticity in what they're doing. They're not trying to educate you, because I mean, because the thing, the thing is, what I said is like in essence, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, you know.

Nadine Matheson: 47:05

You know there's not going to be many writers out there who can rely solely on their income as a writer. There are many of us who still have full-time jobs or have other jobs in addition to writing, and that's very realistic and that's a pragmatic view to have. But language is important and the way in which you use language to convey what you want to say is important. And you said it doesn't it cost nothing to be kind and it's not impossible.

Ola Tundun: 47:31

It's not an impossible ask. An impossible ask or impossible situation was how I got into this. That was impossible, that was it was. It was absolutely yeah, it's absolutely miraculous. It's absolutely miraculous. And it was almost like the universe was like, okay, you're wayward but obedient, like you try to do the right thing most of the time, but yeah, no, so it's, it's not impossible. I think that sometimes we we look at data and we're like, oh well, there's a one in million, um, one in million chance of that happening. But truthfully, for it to be a one in a million chance, there is that one. So I mean to just never say never just sounds like an impossibility. There's a reason why it's a probability, not a definite, you know can I be?

Ola Tundun: 48:34

very can.

Nadine Matheson: 48:35

I be very serious at the moment, oh so go on, yes no, no, no, please be serious, I will be okay you don't have to be no, but I did have a serious question for you. Well, it's kind of serious, seems like the strange word to you, considering what you write, because you write rom-coms very funny. It's rom-coms, right, did?

Ola Tundun: 48:57

you ever think about yeah, yeah, you do.

Nadine Matheson: 49:01

Did you ever think about of yourself as a black woman writing rom-coms and how you would fit in the industry? Did that ever at any point occur to you?

Ola Tundun: 49:16

it didn't. It didn't, it did not occur to me. So my book it's a trilogy, but what I did write was my book has got two protagonists and the female protagonist I wanted her to be absolutely everything you did not think a Black woman could be would be in terms of society, affluent, is neurodiverse and suffers from panic attacks. She's not that strong black woman. In fact she's quite meek, but in terms of toughness, is an extremely tough character, but in ways that you wouldn't expect it. She's quiet, she knows what she's doing, she's a professional, but she's in this multi, she's in this interracial relationship with this man that, on the face of it, has given her absolutely everything and she chooses to leave. Um, I didn't think that there were enough depictions of black women that I had read that were soft and sweet and vulnerable and had panic attacks and had very close relationships with their interracial parents. Know, those depictions weren't there, and so when I wrote her, I was actually exploring what that person would look like in my head. I didn't think for one second he'd get picked up, but I was. I suppose I was. I was writing someone that I just wanted to see more of.

Ola Tundun: 51:12

You know, usually when people talk about Black women. We're strong and we're angry and we don't have fathers and oh, we're all victims of racism and we're you know. There are just so many things tied to being a Black woman. I'll never forget the very first few years of my career. I'd walk into a room and people would be like, oh my goodness, you know how lovely. And they're like oh, I did.

Ola Tundun: 51:41

We didn't think you'd be black. And I'm like what the hell are you like? You know, because you have these conversations over the phone, you know, and you're just like, of course, like why wouldn't I be professional and nice and fun? And and so it's. I really wanted to write that. And because never in a million years did I think that I'd be in this space speaking to you, having published book, I've never even thought about how I would fit, because my character was the one that was kind of doing all the heavy lifting of what that would would look like. So no, I've never thought about it, but since I have snuck into this industry, you didn't sneak into, I'm gonna stop.

Nadine Matheson: 52:31

Stop. You didn't sneak into it. You're in the industry. You made your way into it because you just yeah, you deserve it but.

Ola Tundun: 52:43

But I have seen um, a lot of um, authors of color, and not just black, you know, multiracial and and I think elevating those voices are really, really important. So whenever I see an author that looks like me or feels like me, or has the same energy as I do, like, like, I'm the first person to like, oh, let's post about this or let's reach out or let's have a conversation. And I know that there are probably things that I'm wandering into ignorantly, but every experience I have had has been extremely positive. I'm talking to you, you know it's been extremely positive. I'm talking to you, you know it's been extremely positive. I am completely obsessed with love. I'm completely obsessed with it, and not in the romantic sense of boy meets girl, but love of family, love of your friends, like friends that really love you, not hanging around with those chicks that you can't really trust, like real love. And you know how we forgive. You know how we forgive the people that we love a little easily than we do the people that we don't know or we don't, and I think that I've always been obsessed with that as a black woman, navigating those things.

Ola Tundun: 54:13

For some people it's really different. I'll never forget someone that read my book and they missed all my little tiny cues and they were like oh my goodness, I almost got to the the middle of the book and I realized that your protagonist was, was black. And I'm like bab babes, you didn't look at the cover? And they're like oh no, they got it on Kindle. And they're like and I've had people DM me and they're like why did you write her as a white woman? And I'm like I want to educate you. I really do, but I don't know where to begin. Um, having that sort of protagonist for me now that it's out there, I think there are lots of conversations that we need to have about what black women look and feel and sound and and behave like. No, we're definitely put in a box 100.

Nadine Matheson: 55:13

Yeah, I was going to say, but it's about, I think, what we're all trying to do. When we're, when you're a writer of color and you're creating these characters, whether you're writing romantic comedies or speculative fiction or crime, crime books or children's book, all you're trying to do you're always trying to move beyond the stereotypes. Like you want to be in a place where, if someone picks up your book, that you don't then receive an email or a dm from someone saying, oh, because I've had the same email, I didn't realize that henley was black and D-I Henley. It's like.

Nadine Matheson: 55:51

D-I Henley. I love her. She's brilliant.

Ola Tundun: 55:54

Flawed, but brilliant.

Nadine Matheson: 55:56

But that's what I want people to say. I want people to say she's flawed, she's brilliant, she's this, and that I don't want to get the email that says oh, I didn't realise she was black. Well, what would have been the consequence of that was black. Well, what, what would have been the consequence of that if you had realized that she was black on page one? What would have been the fallout of that for you? Would you have put the book down? Would that have changed how you interpreted or viewed the story, or in viewed henley or even viewed me like that I?

Nadine Matheson: 56:27

You know you welcome the day when you get an email and I do get those emails, I get them all the time when you know her race, doesn't? It's not the first sentence in the email, it's. I got one the other day and then it made me cry. I got one on Saturday from a reader in America and she said she hadn't read a book for like over two years, since the death I think come over. It was the death of her niece, um, you know she'd lost, she'd lost a family member, suicide, and she hadn't read a book for years. And then she said she picked up my book and it got and she fell in love with reading again. You know those are the emails.

Nadine Matheson: 57:03

Yeah, that I was like I'm gonna reply, but I'm gonna email her back but you know those are the emails you want and you appreciate I mean not saying you don't appreciate you know if they say I didn't realize she was black and I really enjoyed it. Well, you know, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Nadine Matheson: 57:16

But I think for all of us, for writers of color, you want to get to a place when someone's not saying oh, I did not realize because then if you're saying I didn't, realize you're suggesting that, oh you know, this is against the norm, this is different and I'm not sure how I should have even responded to this or even interpreted this and also as well, I said to myself. I've always said, you know, as people of colour don't wake up in, I don't think we do. We don't wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and go. I'm a black woman today. I'm a black man today.

Ola Tundun: 57:46

I'm an Asian man, I'm Chinese, I'm this, I'm that. You just don't you wake up in the mirror.

Nadine Matheson: 57:51

You looked at yourself. I'm like, thank god, my roots need doing. Oh yeah, I didn't have enough sleep last night. I got dark circles under my eyes. Oh, you know that that cream worked really well last night. I'm looking, my face looks a lot better. This isn't a force that you have human thoughts not, yeah, not the other thoughts oh god, but it's.

Ola Tundun: 58:14

It's also interesting in a sense, because I think that just shifting that perspective a little bit every single time helps, you know, just just shifting that perspective of oh no, you know, they're not all angry and strong.

Nadine Matheson: 58:31

I don't think you know. Going on, what you're saying is that you know the more that you see of yourselves in bookshelves. You know online, when you're scrolling through those online bookshops, whatever format you know we all want to see ourselves reflected in some shape or form. And you know if there's one more person you know. So Arula Tundon turns up with her books called Roommate. You know when she turns up, you're like, oh my God, there's another one and this is another author that I want to read and you're interested in their stories and what they have to say. You know, the more opportunities you have of that, the better it is for everyone.

Ola Tundun: 59:11

I was going to ask you a question because this is what I found, what I have found the most interesting part of this journey and I don't know what the most interesting part for you is. I was going to ask you what you found the most interesting, going to ask you what you found the most interesting. But for me, I was not prepared, and because I've gone from no one reading to a whole bunch of people I don't know reading. I was not prepared for how much people bring of themselves to the book, the review, the. You know I wasn't prepared for that. And so I read all the reviews one, two, five, do you? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I do, I do. I've been told not to, but I do. Yeah, I would say I would tell you not to. Yeah, I do, I read them all. I say nothing, but I read. Yeah, I would say I would tell you not to. Yeah, I do, I read them all. I say nothing, but I read them all.

Ola Tundun: 1:00:15

And you know, some reviews are fair, some reviews are not. But the one thing that I don't think a lot of reviewers realize when they leave you a review is how much of themselves they are giving you, how much of the way they think, how much of the way they meet these characters. They're exposing of themselves and just from reading a review you can tell so much about the person that has written that review from their review, and I don't think that a lot of reviewers realize that they're doing that. I've never reviewed anything and I find it really fascinating. So that's the one thing that I found really interesting that they're these people that you had never met. Good, bad, terrible book was nice. It wasn't how much they bring of themselves, whether it's anger, whether it's joy, whether it's offense, whether it's to those reviews, and that's what I found really interesting. What have you found most interesting? Because I'm absolutely blown away by it and I can't believe there's anything more interesting than that.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:32

I think I'm a bit more pragmatic and maybe a boring view of what I found interesting. I found surprising about just publishing as a whole entity. Yeah, and just publishing, and you know, readers, everything. The whole thing is that from the outside, as a reader, I thought they was a lot further ahead than what they are, a lot more open in one sense the difference to different stories.

Nadine Matheson: 1:02:08

This is what I thought and then I found in, and I still feel this, that inside, when you're getting been published in, there is there can be still be a bit closed to, yeah, the variety of stories that people have to tell, and I still feel that there can there is a bit of a one-in-one-out policy when it comes to writers of color.

Nadine Matheson: 1:02:33

Someone may tell me, someone may come tell me that I'm completely wrong and that that's not the case at all, but that's just how I view things. I think, especially when you look at and for me, especially when you look at how authors and books are just promoted and marketed in general, and there can be authors who write the most brilliant books, have the most amazing stories to tell, and I'm not talking about you know authors, ethnicity and colour. I'm not talking about anything like that. I'm just talking about simply they have the most amazing stories to tell, tell and you'll see, their books will go out and but they just disappear without a trace because they haven't been pushed the way in which they deserve to be pushed. And I think maybe in that sense it kind of feels like it's a one, it's a one-in-one-out policy and if we're going to put all our efforts into this author, everyone else kind of get.

Ola Tundun: 1:03:32

You're lucky if you get crumbs do you think that creates competition between authors? So, for example, that may have motivated little miss down voter. Do you like? Do you know what I mean like? Do you think it like? Who is getting that deal? Because I've been fairly protected, like my agent's fantastic. I don't think about anything other than writing.

Nadine Matheson: 1:03:56

I don't think it counts competition, because the competition's there. I mean you'd have to be. I'm not going to be offensive to anyone, but I think you have to be a bit naive to think there's no competition in any industry. You know, when I was practising law full-time, there's competition. You know who's going to get the cases, who's going to be the best of the best.

Nadine Matheson: 1:04:15

You know in music there's going to be. There's competition everywhere. So I don't think it creates competition, but what it probably does it probably makes you more competitive yourself personally. So you then realise the only person you have to compete with is yourself, and it's a kind of thinking about what do I then need to do in order to help myself? I think that's probably what surprised me is that how much you don't just hand it over you don't?

Nadine Matheson: 1:04:45

you also have to participate yeah, it's still down to you. You still have to do your work, you still have to put yourself out there. You can't just say, yeah, I've done it, I've handed it over. Now it's all down on you. I think that's what I think taping about, that's what's probably surprised me the most, that's really interesting.

Ola Tundun: 1:05:08

That's really really interesting because you're right, I didn't think that I'd hand it over. I knew that I'd have to do something, um, but I can see. I mean, I'm still finding stuff out, so I'm still finding stuff.

Nadine Matheson: 1:05:28

I don't think you've ever got finding stuff out and I don't think there'll be one writer out there who's not gonna. Whether it's someone who's got a debut coming out this year or had their first book come out 15, 20 years ago and they've got a long-standing career, I don't think there'll be, and there's not, one person who won't say to you there's a publishing can be quite opaque. You feel like you know stuff, yeah, but actually you don't. It's a lot of stuff that's kind of hidden from you and you learn. Either you learn it for yourself or it's because someone else has told you this has been my experience.

Nadine Matheson: 1:06:02

You learn from other people's experiences. That's what I'm finding.

Ola Tundun: 1:06:09

I'm honestly this industry. Every day, I get slapped with like some information that I'm just like is that how these people are getting down? Nobody told me, but I think that's also part of the fact that I don't. I haven't, I haven't been to any publishing events yet and I feel like I should. I feel like just getting out there as an author meeting other yeah, because I haven't really met any other authors apart from Instagram. And there's an incredible author, ava Verde. She's fantastic, and I had a little launch reception for my second book that came out um, in January and I invited her and she came and it was just so nice to be able to hug her and hold her and be like you are real. That's everything you know. I feel like I need to. That's one of the things that I think would be would be is definitely.

Nadine Matheson: 1:07:10

I need to add that to my 2024 list of things to do yeah, for all of my listen, for all of my possible passive aggressiveness, negativity and pragmatism about the industry because I think I can be, I can probably be a bit black and white about things is that one of the best things about it is being out there, you know, going to the festivals and other authors' book launches and just meeting other authors in real life and feeling that you are part of a wider community. Yeah, that is for all that I say, for all the you know the world, the end is nigh. Stuff that I say the you know the world the end is nice. Stuff that I say there is, it is a very, very supportive community.

Ola Tundun: 1:07:58

I wonder if so, one of the things that, because I'm a member of the Society of the Authors, I'm a member of the Black Writers Guild and the Romance Novelist Association and and they have these events that I don't get the opportunity to go to being part of that community, I think it's something that I crave, because at the moment, because of how everything has happened, I feel like I sit outside of that and I think that coming in and actually meeting more authors and having conversations and understanding what other people's experiences have been um, will probably pull me into the industry a little bit more, because I'm just on a corner, like in the corner, having fun, posting irrelevant there's nothing wrong with that, you know.

Nadine Matheson: 1:08:48

The most important thing, as I said, as you know, take, take away my end is nigh attitude. You want to have fun. Listen, if you're going to be spending so much of your time devoted to a craft and wanting to succeed at what you do, you need to be having fun with it yeah, oh, I'm definitely having fun.

Nadine Matheson: 1:09:10

Yeah, you are definitely having fun, right, ola? Because, as I said before, we even started officially recording this conversation. We were chatting away and I was watching the minutes fly by and I thought no, we need, I need to press record, but so I have some questions for you oh, okay okay, good, I love it.

Ola Tundun: 1:09:27

I love it. Give me the questions, but you've already you've already answered this one already.

Nadine Matheson: 1:09:32

Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Ola Tundun: 1:09:36

I'm definitely a hybrid. Um, I can turn it on, but I get my energy from just quiet silence, um. But yeah, I'm pretty happy generally when you're around me. So yeah, I'd say I'm an ambiver 100%.

Nadine Matheson: 1:09:54

Where's your happy place? This isn't even on my list, but do you have a happy place?

Ola Tundun: 1:09:59

Yes, my husband and my child and my friends and my family. I love being around people that I love and that love me unreservedly. That is the biggest blessing anyone can have, at your best, at your worst, at your most frightened, at your most insecure, at your bubbliest, whether or not you're celebrating or you're looking at that black dog coming for you, whether or not you're celebrating or you're looking at that black dog coming for you, being surrounded by just people that you love and love you.

Nadine Matheson: 1:10:38

Um, I think that's that's my happy place what was their response when they first saw roommates? Well, not even roommates, roommates, and complicated your two books oh, oh, my happy people.

Ola Tundun: 1:10:52

Oh, so every time I release a book, I invite all my happy people to come and have champagne and nibbles somewhere in London. So they came, like the hungry but lovable freeloaders they were, and they bought loads of books and I've never felt more supported, and I think part of that is because everyone's like you're surprised, aren't you? Why are you so surprised? Just own it and I'm like I can't believe it. They're like believe it. Um, so they've been really good at just reminding me that this is real, this is this is happening and this is real. This is this is happening, and this is something that I now have to become or deal with, or or embody and represent.

Nadine Matheson: 1:11:37

But yeah, I think you, I think you embodied it from day one, because from day one, you know you did, though, because you know, you what. You wrote this book, this epic book, but then it said, you recognized what needed to be done with it and you sought out a way to deal with it, and then you just kept it moving and not at no point did you just say you know what? No, this is too long, I'm not dealing with it, this is the wrong editor. I'm just putting an end to this or this agent's not work working for me. That means it's over, you know every point.

Nadine Matheson: 1:12:12

Every every time you had to, I said my favorite word last year was pivot, but every point you had to pivot, you did oh, yes, yes, yes, but you know it's, it's all.

Ola Tundun: 1:12:26

It was also just a lot of fun, like I had a lot of fun with this in the pandemic. I had a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun writing those racy scenes. I had a lot of fun putting in some arguments like no, I, I had a lot of fun.

Nadine Matheson: 1:12:41

I had a lot of fun, so it was okay so, moving on from fun, what challenge or experience does that have to be a challenge? But what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Ola Tundun: 1:12:52

my mother dying, shaped me. She I was in my 20s and she was my best friend. She was absolutely everything to me. She was funny and beautiful and smart and challenging and cheeky and curious. And then she fell sick and I remember thinking is this, it Is all of that now down to this, and before she passed away, I had been pretty cautious. I'm a planner and I knew what my life looked like, or at least I knew what I wanted my life to look like, and I was going to work towards that. There weren't going to be any diversions.

Ola Tundun: 1:13:53

And when she eventually died, it took me a long time to grieve. Um, it took me a very long time to cry, because I just didn't know how to process, how everything could just be gone. And I remember thinking. Just a thought popped into my head and I just thought about everything she'd left behind and it made me realize that we might be here for 10 years, five years, a hundred years, a thousand well, not a thousand but we might be here for however long we are, and it matters what we do while we're here and I'm not talking about the writing, how we treat each other, what energy we leave in a room.

Ola Tundun: 1:14:39

You know being kind to that person, and it's about what you leave behind, because we're not just a light, we are a never ending trail, and even now, when I look at my daughter or I'm speaking with my friends, I'm having a conversation with someone. There are things that she taught me that I still apply, you know, and there are things that she gave me that I still pass on, and I think that sort of infinite impact was what struck me and it made me realize that maybe being cautious isn't the way forward, but leading with kindness and empathy and joy, and just trying to be that positive impact wherever you can be. Um, and I think that was what. I think that was the one defining moment for me over a period of months. Um, but it came as a quick realization that we're actually we actually aren't a beginning or an end, and that changed my perspective on absolutely everything if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Ola Tundun: 1:15:54

you're going to be okay. You're going to be okay, that's it.

Nadine Matheson: 1:16:01

I think we need that at 25. I think at 25 you can. You can look at your life and think into yourself I, I should have been here, I should have been doing these things and this hasn't happened to me the way I wanted it to happen, or I thought it was going to happen, and you can kind of tell yourself that you think it's all over and then your life is just going to go down the toilet. But I think you need, you need someone, but I don't know it's whether you'd listen, but I think you do.

Nadine Matheson: 1:16:27

You would listen at 25, but you do need someone to tell you actually it's going to be okay. And you know this little, wherever you are in your life, you may not be where you want, but this is just.

Ola Tundun: 1:16:39

It might be a little detour, but you're going to end up in the right place yeah, I think that life is fast and we are increasingly finding validation out there rather than just worrying about whether or not we can sleep at night, and I think that at 25, you're still finding yourself. You're still what am I going to do? How am I going to do? How am I going to do it? You know, and your, your image of yourself is not not not all the time, but often is based around the people you're surrounding yourself with, whether that's with work, whether that's going out with what are the case may be, but just being able to sit in yourself and just be like, do you know what? Whatever happens, you're going to be okay, it's probably the most powerful thing that anyone could have said to me when I was 25. Whatever was going on, I was going to come out of it and it's going to be okay okay, so Ola, first book's called Roommates.

Nadine Matheson: 1:17:48

second book book is called Complicated. What is the third book called? Oh, all, right, then she's looking. If you see the look on her face, she's like why are you asking me this? I don't know.

Ola Tundun: 1:18:03

All my enemies got together and had a meeting to make this book absolutely challenging. This book has dropped me through the fire, nadine, like, oh my goodness, I have no idea what this book is going to be called. I don't even know what's happening in the book and I've written it like. This book, this book. You know that what was I thinking? Moment. Every day I looked at this book, this book. You know that what was I thinking? Moment. Every day I looked at this book, I was like, what am I doing? Like if they didn't find out now with two weeks, they're gonna find out with book three and you know what?

Nadine Matheson: 1:18:45

ola? This is where you call yourself a writer, not one person who does not look at their screen or that page and said what the hell is this? Why am I doing this to myself? Why did I decide, why did I think I could be a writer? So you saying this to me is just, actually, I think that's the best answer. Not having a book title, just that is the best answer.

Ola Tundun: 1:19:11

I don't even know what's going on in the book. I have no idea. This book is dragging me through the fire like I don't know. I hope something comes out of it, but that's kind of where where I'm absolutely like insecurity, zero confidence. Any kind of how I'm actually forming sentences with the English language is beyond me. Like if I finish this book, I'm doing voice to text for like six months, like nobody asked me to type anything. Like I'm done, like I'm finished.

Nadine Matheson: 1:19:47

But you know what You're at this point now. But I promise you, but let's call it 12 months from now, you're gonna look at this book and you're gonna be like, oh, I wrote this your lips to god's hand, to god, because, right, you're gonna be like this is what my blood and tears produce. I made this and I am proud. I hope so. All right, well, ola, let's talk about something that you do know. Where can listeners of the Conversation?

Ola Tundun: 1:20:23

podcast find you online Absolutely everywhere. I have an Instagram profile. I've got a website. If you follow Nadine, which you should just look in her follower or following, or both or one, I'll be there. It's Ola Tindon X Twitter. Sometimes I'm scared, but I'm there.

Nadine Matheson: 1:20:48

But yeah, just put Ola Tindon X in your search bar and I will pop up yeah well, can I just say, olatunden, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, so thank you so much for being part of the conversation it's been such a pleasure and a privilege.

Ola Tundun: 1:21:10

Thank you very much. Maybe you are before I leave. You have been so kind and so generous and so supportive and you're an absolute beacon and if you are a writer, new to this or not, stumbling in or not veteran or not, follow this lady because she is such a gift and I'm really grateful that you've invited me on the conversation. Thank you thank you.

Nadine Matheson: 1:21:37

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the Conversation, all you have to do is email theconversation at nadinemaffersoncom. Thank you, and I'll see you next week.