Rachel Wolf: Crafting Thrillers and Navigating the High Seas

What happens when an accomplished law student, teacher, and mother pivots to a career in writing? Meet Rachel Wolf, also known by her pen name Rachel Blok, who shares her compelling journey from penning police procedurals to creating standalone thrillers. Discover how her maternity leave sparked a prolific writing career, allowing her to publish one book per year since 2018. We dive into the influence of COVID-19 on her work, her adventurous research methods—including an investigative cruise—and how these experiences shape her narratives.

Join us for an episode brimming with personal anecdotes, practical advice, Rachel's new novel, Five Nights, and  the unwavering determination it takes to succeed in the literary world.

Five Nights
A POWERFUL FAMILY. A LUXURY CRUISE. A KILLER ON BOARD...

I recently married Mattia Scarmardo, head of one of the wealthiest - and most ruthless - families in the world.
I invited you on a five night voyage to New York aboard their glamorous new ship because I needed your help.
Someone in the family is threatening me, scared of the new wife who could steal their vast inheritance.
What I didn't tell you is that there would be a chance you would be targeted too. That what you did all those years ago would finally come back to bite you.

You came here to help me, but you don't know the whole truth.
And now we're trapped on a boat with a murderer.

Follow Rachel Wolf

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I wanted to kind of really change the tone, and so I went for like a glamorous thriller, you know, one that I didn't really need to go to prison to research, which is so often the way and I want to go on a cruise and do some research, bring it on.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, bestselling author, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. Can you believe that we're in June? Yep, we're in June and in the UK the weather is just not well. It's not weathering, it's not doing what it's supposed to do for a time when we're supposed to be moving into summer. It's been wet, it's been miserable, it has not been fun and I hope it changes because you know you need we need sunshine, filled days, we need heat. That's what we need. We need heat.

Speaker 2: 0:54

So let's talk a little bit about communication. If you go to the show notes in this podcast episode, you will see a link that says send me a text message. So if you click on the link, you can send me a message and I will reply. Your message can be about the show, it can be about questions, it could be that you simply want a shout out. So take advantage of it, click the link and send me a message, because it shows also that you're supporting the show. And also there's another link in the show notes to show how you can support the show and what you get for supporting the show. I do appreciate each and every single one of you. So I do see all your comments and I see the reviews and I just want to say thank you, thank you for listening and thank you for supporting.

Speaker 2: 1:44

And that just leaves me to do my last reminder for this intro that you can still get 30% of my third novel in the Detective Inspector Henley series, the Kill List, if you order directly from harpercollinscouk. So if you go to harpercollinscouk, search for the Kill, enter code TKL30 at checkout. You will receive a massive and 30% is big. 30% is big. You will receive a 30% discount of the Kill List. And if you have read the Kill List, please leave a reviews. Reviews are so important. One, it shows that well, that you like the book. And two, well, it shows that the bookshops and publishers, that there's a demand and that you love me. Right, let's get on with the show. In this week's episode I'm in conversation with author Rachel Wolfe and in our conversation we talk about how far writers take their research, how you have to trust your agent and the expectations versus reality of being a debut author. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation Rachel Wolfe. Welcome to the conversation.

Speaker 1: 2:57

Hi Nadine, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2: 2:59

You are welcome, right? My first question for you is because just before we started officially and we were talking about you being Rachel Wolfe and also being Rachel Block, so I want to know how would you describe your looking back If we were doing? This Is your Life. How would you describe your publishing journey so far?

Speaker 1: 3:18

That's a big question. I don't know, I'm not sure it's a big question for the morning. So, um, I started when I was actually pregnant, um, and then on maternity leave because I'd wanted to write a book for years, um, and you know, we start and we stop, and we start and we stop, don't we? Um? And then I did my first novel when I was on maternity leave, so that began and then kind of finally got published in 2018. And then since then, I've done one a year. I did a police procedural series as Rachel Block, and now I'm out in the standalone thriller world and I'm writing as Rachel Wolfe.

Speaker 2: 4:00

What is that like when you go from? Because when I first met you at an event we did in St Albans, and so you had your. I think I don't know if the fourth is the fourth, the last one of the Rachel Block.

Speaker 1: 4:13

Yeah, the fourth one. I did one for each season and the fourth was the last one.

Speaker 2: 4:17

Yeah, that was it, I think. When I met you, I think the fall was about to come out. So what is it like? Does it feel like you're changing identity? It does, yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:29

Yeah, it really does. I think partly because I kind of wanted to ramp it up. I think kind of COVID killed me off a bit, that whole staying in your house thing for so long and I was finishing the fall during COVID. So once that was all behind us and I was kind of moving towards the next book, I wanted to do something fun. I wanted to do something far away. I wanted to kind of really change the tone.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Um, so I went for like a glamorous thriller, you know, one that I didn't really need to go to prison, to research, which is so often the way. I want to go on a cruise and do some research. Bring it on. So I did. I went on a cruise, you went on a cruise, yeah. Yeah, we just did four days because, like you know, we've got kids and we had to like farm them out with my parents. But we did four days and I had the best time. It was literally just kind of around Britain and up and down the channel and and it was brilliant and I just kind of thought, yes, this is like the perfect place for my next book. Um, so it's so much fun.

Speaker 1: 5:30

I had a tour of the bridge by the um captain and I was like, excuse me, captain of the ship, would you mind telling me what happens if somebody falls over or if somebody pushes somebody else over? And he was like looking at me. So I explained that it was research and he was so helpful, he talked me through like the stuff. Like they've got a separate bridge and so if all the power fails on one bridge they can go to the other bridge. Yeah, honestly, it's incredible. They have like an 80 strong team. If, like, somebody does fall over, like you press the red button and then all these people come kind of out of nowhere. So we talked about that cctv. So I did all my research, chatting to the captain on this really amazing cruise liner, which was so different to going into prison or going and researching mental health hospitals and all of the stuff that I think I I kind of had to do with, like the police procedural series. So it's lots of fun.

Speaker 2: 6:27

It just. You know I shouldn't laugh, but every time you said you know it's better than going to prison doing research. Instead I went on a cruise Because that's normally sorry, I pull myself together, but that's normally what, you know, most crime writers are doing when they're doing it's the dark stuff. As I said, it's the and I say dark, not in an offensive way, but it is what it is. But you know you're doing the prison visits. You might be talking to police officers and lawyers and going to mental health, um, hospitals, that sort of side of it, yeah. But then to go on a cruise, it just seems like. It just seems really glamorous and fun and I'm like I and I never really wanted to go on a cruise. It just seems really glamorous and fun and I'm like, and I'd never really wanted to go on a cruise before, but now I want to do something glam and fun.

Speaker 1: 7:12

I know I've never been on a cruise and never wanted to, but we went. The first one we went because I did two. I did one before I wrote the book and I did one after I wrote the book. And the first one I did. Yeah, so it was that period of time where you could go on holiday but you couldn't leave the country yeah and it was just like so much fun because we couldn't get on a plane and go anywhere and my husband was let's go on it.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Let's go on the cruise because they'd all been sat, all the cruise ships been sat in the harbour for like 12 months and hadn't been able to go anywhere. So that was why we kind of picked the cruise. But, honestly, when you're on it, you kind of don't need to get off it. They hand you kind of glasses of champagne when you get on and I was like all right, this is good. So no, it was such a stark contrast from all of the other research which was really necessary.

Speaker 1: 7:59

Like you can't write about mental health hospitals and you can't write about prisons unless you've been there. So, yeah, it was brilliant. Actually, it was really really fun and there was a bit of bit of a kind of a serious edge I needed. I needed to have one of my characters, um, have been um, held hostage and taken for ransom. Um and I spoke to Hostage International and I read quite a few books written by ex-hostages just to I understood what the possible kind of effects are, kind of understood, like some of the situations. Actually, I recently, last week, as a kind of thank you, I went along to a big fundraiser event that they were holding at the Old Bailey and I listened to John McCarthy and Terry Waite and Judith Tebbert talk about their experiences and that was kind of pretty like awe inspiring and a little bit overwhelming. That was amazing. So Hostage International, like huge shout out for them for all the work that they do.

Speaker 2: 9:01

And that was my very serious part of the research. The rest of it was a bit more light hearted. But it's interesting when we think you think about research, especially when you sit, not not like when you see research, no, actually. No, when you see research in books, sometimes you can really see it. You can see the info dumping that the author has done, and that can be a time it can be off-putting, because it's like I don't really need to know everything that you learn about, whatever subject it is. So how, how do you manage that balance of you know you've done your research and you've enjoyed your research, clearly, but not just having it being such a bulk of the book yeah, I think that's a really good question because you're so right, info dumping like jumps off the page, doesn't it?

Speaker 1: 9:46

but it doesn't jump off the page when you're doing it because you're so impressed by yourself, like amassing this huge body of knowledge that you did not before have. Um, it's really hard. I I have some trusted friends and they tend to read um my stuff before it goes to my agent or my editor, and that's usually helpful because you need somebody to just really point it out if you haven't picked it up yourself in the editing. I think the massive question we all have to ask ourselves all the time is is this moving the story along and is this essential to the scene? And you have to ask yourself that of everything, don't you? Um and I think you because you're this incredibly intelligent lawyer with so much experience? But you are and you know you.

Speaker 1: 10:31

For you, that side of like the crime side of it probably comes a bit more naturally. For me, yeah, it's all brand new, like everything's brand new, and that side of world I was, I worked in a holiday firm and I was an English teacher for years and those are my two kind of big work experiences. So we had the prisons, the kind of mental health hospitals, the um, you know, the hostage situations. They're all brand new. So I just think you've just got to edit and edit, don't you?

Speaker 2: 10:58

yeah, what was it? You know you said you worked for the holiday firm and then you're working as a teacher yeah so how did you make the transition from teacher to writer and what was that period like for you? Because you know everyone always thinks about there's gonna be so many people out there listening, thinking about making the jump or even just starting their first book, but how did you make that actual transition?

Speaker 1: 11:22

I've always wanted to write a novel. I actually started doing law at university and I lasted for three days because I realized I should be doing an English degree instead and taught law, which we began with just wasn't quite for me. It's never for anybody.

Speaker 2: 11:39

You're like. You're like what is taught. I don't even understand. Why am I here?

Speaker 1: 11:43

it was so hard. So I switched and I read about Tolstoy and I had like three brilliant years and I did some kind of Italian literature as well and I went to Bologna and I studied Italian. And it's just this brilliant time and I loved it. But I'd always wanted to write a novel, I think. And then English students and English teachers always secretly want to write a book. I think they probably do. And then don't English students and English teachers always secretly want to write a book? I think they probably do.

Speaker 1: 12:08

And then I started teaching and I had no time for anything. I started a few books here and there but never really got anywhere. And then, like I say, when I was pregnant, I was like I said to myself this before I had the child, I had the baby. I was telling my mom I'm going to write a book in the afternoon, when the baby sleeps. She just looked at me. She was like, okay, we'll see how that goes. So after the first three months of completely freaking out, um, I thought, no, I promised myself I'm gonna do it. So every time my son slept he did like three half an hour sleeps during the day.

Speaker 1: 12:39

I would literally just sit down and write, I would cane words and then, after a while, I had a, a book, which was, you know, amazing, and I think the key thing for anyone wanting to start is just to finish. You've just got to literally carry on. And I carried on, and then I did a course. I did the Curtis Brown course because I had a manuscript but I didn't know what to do next. I think that's it's such a mystery, isn't it publishing, if you, you know nothing about that world? It's such a mystery, isn't it publishing, if you, you know nothing about that world, you write a book and you think, okay, what do I do now? Um, so I did the Curtis Brown course. I applied and got on, and that basically taught me how to edit, and it also told me that I needed an agent, because I don't. I don't even think I knew that really um, you know any?

Speaker 2: 13:22

this sounds really bad even the way I'm saying it, but didn't you know anything? You know when you finish. You finished your book, you I mean editing is something completely different, because you don't know about editing until you actually start doing it. You're in that process. But even in that, that step of okay, now I need to find an agent, was it just like no awareness of it whatsoever?

Speaker 1: 13:43

not really. I just I think I've been. I worked so hard as a teacher. There's so much marking there was.

Speaker 1: 13:50

I've taught in a comprehensive school the boys comprehensive in London and I was busy all the time, um, and then, yeah, I was writing a book and having a baby and I was like I'm just gonna do these two things. So, no, I kind of knew about agents and I knew about publishers, but I didn't really understand how you went about getting one and I think I still thought you had to like print out your book and post it off, and obviously now it's all kind of on emails and everything. So it was a lot easier than I expected. I thought I was going to have to send off stamp to address envelopes and all sorts. You know, when you read about people kind of who came before us, who, I had all these kind of this posting you had to post it on. So you know, I honestly I just didn't really know. Um, I didn't go to author talks or anything. I just had no idea about all of that I listened to Martin.

Speaker 1: 14:39

Amis talk once. But I think when you're that successful, you're so far divorced from the start that you know it feels like you'll never get there, but you don't really know what your first step is yeah, I remember my first author talk I went to and it was like god, it was either Marie Claire magazine or Red magazine.

Speaker 2: 15:01

It was one of those two magazines and they had. You know, there was there'd be like a book page and I think it was. Freya North was the author and it was oh, you can come and listen to a talk and that was my first author talk because I knew I wanted to write books and I think somewhere in the back of your mind you're aware that maybe you need to be around authors and actually see what real life authors have to say. But I think that was the first like author talk I went to and I just went by, went and it was where it was weird, because I remember there was. It was a champagne reception, it was at the British Museum. It was all very weird. Actually, I don't know why it was so weird. I've never been to a champagne reception. Yeah, it was very brave.

Speaker 2: 15:40

I think that's when there was lots of money flowing around because of the champagne reception. I remember getting my glass of champagne and I remember getting a goodie bag. It was weird. They had LMS products products in it and I got a book and I listened to this talk and then I left. Yeah, but it was. I think it was talking about how to get into publishing and how to be a writer, but I think I learned anything about how to get into it. I just came out of a goody bag I'm pretty normal at this point I listened to her talk about her book and I got a copy. I'd already read her book, I'd already had, so I ended up with like two copies. But yeah, I don't think I learned anything about how to get into the industry. I just came out with nice products and had some champagne that doesn't sound like a bad day out no, it wasn't a bad day.

Speaker 2: 16:29

I don't even know why I brought it up, but I love. What I'm just saying is that you're just not aware, yeah, of what it means to get into what, how to actually get into the industry, until you actually start throwing yourself into that environment.

Speaker 1: 16:43

I think you know the words, don't you? You know? The words and you know the word kind of submission, and you know the word publishing, but until you actually send off your first submission it just feels like some massive, like fog that you've got to try and navigate your way through definitely so how did you do it?

Speaker 2: 17:01

when you got into Curtis, when you did the Curtis Brown course was it was it intimidating at any point when you're around, because you're around other?

Speaker 1: 17:07

writers. Yeah, it was terrifying. So I did the one where 15 people there was 15 of us in person, so kind of every Thursday it was three months we went into Curtis Brown and sat around this kind of you know huge table and we had Louise Wenner, who used to be in Sleeper and then became an author. Yeah, so she was our tutor and that was kind of intimidating anyway, because you know she's quite a figure and yeah, you had to, kind of you know, read your work and you had to discuss it out loud. And I think that's when, suddenly, the moment you start to talk about your writing in front of other people, it clarifies exactly what you think about your writing. All of that kind of closed door oh this is a lovely phrase kind of goes out of the window because you listen to it from other people's ears. And that is like the first massive step, I think.

Speaker 1: 18:03

But my worst moment when I say say worse, I don't mean it was bad, I mean it was the most intimidating we had David Mitchell of Cloud Atlas, um, yeah, and Johnny Geller, who's his agent, came in one evening to talk to us. We had two hours, 15 of us, with Johnny Geller and Cloud and David Mitchell at the front and they talked to us about David Mitchell's kind of writing. And then Johnny Geller said would everyone like to just stand up one by one and give us the elevator pitch for your novel? I was just like, oh my god.

Speaker 1: 18:36

I know and like this massive agent, and we all had to deliver our novel, like you know, kind of in two or three sentences, and then David Mitchell gave us all feedback, um, and it was terrifying but really, really clarifying, um, but yeah, that was the worst one, or worse.

Speaker 2: 18:58

I look back and I think that was so useful, but it was terrifying well, it is terrifying because you know, I said one thing about you know, when you're writing, it doesn't matter what stage you are, whether you're a aspiring writer, you know. You just this is your first thing that you're ever writing in your life, or you're working on your fourth or fifth, but you do. You do so much of it in isolation. Even if you are working in a coffee shop or a library, you are still essentially in isolation. It's just you and your screen or your notebook, and that minute you have to pull it before someone and you're asking them to give feedback on it. It's that. It's not just on the work, it's on you. Yeah, it's about you can't. There's no way you can not take it personal. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:40

I know, it's just like the most exposing thing, isn't it? It's like someone's asked you to take all of your clothes off and stand up in public and just do a little pirouette. It's like the worst thing. And then, weirdly, you get used to it, don't you? Because your book's out there and Amazon reviews can slay you or celebrate you. Goodreads is like a place where you only go to sometimes if you fancy a bit of self-doubt, but I think you grow a bit of skin, don't you? I'm definitely. I've toughened up a bit now. I don't collapse if I have like a terrible review anymore, so yeah, did you collapse in the beginning?

Speaker 2: 20:16

oh, my god, in the beginning, but really I don't think I'd collapse. I think I tried. I probably said I put on that lawyer protective armor on from the very beginning, like whatever you say cannot hurt me, but don't get you. You know I've been lying if I wasn't, say, when I was tagged in on things, because you still get tagged in on things, um, and sometimes the majority of the stuff is good and I think it's since. I think sometime last year I did do a post on I don't know if I did it on threads or Instagram, I probably did on both because I got tagged in a review, yeah, and it was a. It was. It was a negative review and I'm like negative review per se they don't bother me because you know we're all human, we all have free will we like? We don't all like the same things. You know I can. I can enjoy really, really bad movies, which people just look at me like what is wrong with you?

Speaker 2: 21:11

I'm like well it's bad, but I enjoy it. Just leave me to it. So it doesn't bother me per se. But that day I got tagged in and I just thought why are you tagging me in? I don't mind you having your negative opinion. You didn't like it, you didn't like it, but you don't need to tag me in. And I did a post about it on Instagram and friends. And then after that I noticed I don't get tagged in. Well done, because there's just no point. But I said they don't normally. At that time it bothered me. I just thought there's no, there's no need, and it wasn't what they were saying. That that bothered me is the fact that you felt the need to let me know.

Speaker 1: 21:49

I mean what am I gonna? I'm like what am?

Speaker 2: 21:50

I gonna do. I mean, it's about the jigsaw man. It's been out for what? Three years, I think, I don't know it's been out for. So I can't go back and change things to suit you. I'm not going to either, but I would. Yeah, I'm not going to, but it just wound me up that day. But as a matter of course, you know, if you happen to be scrolling through Amazon or Goodreads and you know, you see, like the bars, you see, oh nice, a nice orange line of fives, some bloody person's gonna put one and two stars how dare they. But then I don't look at them you don't never look at them.

Speaker 1: 22:25

You have to teach yourself not to look at them. I think it's really hard to begin with. You read everything when you start out, don't you?

Speaker 2: 22:31

yeah, but I didn't exactly and. I know some authors who've they've justified it in in terms of saying oh well, you know, when I've read the one and two stars and I've learned things about my writing and it's helped me, but I'm like, I'm a bit deeper. That's what my editor's for, that's what my agent's for. If I want to learn anything, I don't want to learn anything from the one and two stars reviews. So when you finished, um, the course, did you send your book out?

Speaker 1: 22:59

Yeah, so I did. I was like, okay, I gave it the biggest edit that anybody said well, not anybody, probably everybody has done it, but it felt like the biggest edit that anybody had ever done to me. I literally deleted like 35,000 words.

Speaker 1: 23:13

I kind of that is a big idea and then I sent it out to, I think, four agents. Um, and if anyone is interested in submission, I would totally recommend only sending out to a small number of agents to begin with, because if you do everyone in one go and then you get some feedback about your novel and you think, ok, I'll change it, you don't get another shot. I don't think it works like that. I think you get one agent and one shot. So I did four, I did my dream list and I was really lucky. I got one of my top choices. I was really lucky. I got one of my um topic top choices, uh, which was really exciting um Eve White and she's been my agent ever since. She's Ruth Ware's agent as well. And um Saskia Sargensen and quite a few um kind of really respected writers who I'd like long since I'd mired. So yeah, I was really lucky. I felt incredibly lucky.

Speaker 2: 24:05

Did you know you was letting yourself in for like this whole? Because you know writing the book is one thing and then getting the agent is another thing. Yeah, and then in a sense I always say that's kind of all you're really prepared for, because getting the agent is it's like the zenith, like once you've got the agent, that's it. But then once you've signed, you then realize it's a whole different thing going on the whole submission process. So were you aware?

Speaker 1: 24:33

Like no. So we went on submission and you just have like this image in your head again. I was so new and I look back on it and I think, how, why didn't I read more stories so that about authors being published or go to talks? But again, I didn't think, I don't think I even knew that existed. Really, that whole world was like a mystery, um.

Speaker 1: 24:53

But I went on submission and I kind of thought, great, I'll have a book deal next week, um, and like why not? But no, you get a number of rejections. Then I had an offer and my agent rejected it. She said it was too low and I was kind of nearly crying at home, trusting her but thinking should we not just take it? I'd had enough rejections by that point to think, okay, this might not be the easy ride. That I thought. And then we got the offer and that was amazing. Then we had a big marketing meeting about sales and marketing and publishing and everything before the book came out. Literally everyone's around the table, I mean the publishers, and they've got sales people and marketing people and kind of it's about 15 people around the table. And I said, oh, so will I have huge, big billboards in the tube and my agent kind of put her hands on my arm and she's really kind and she said not even really really successful writers always get that Rachel, um, and I was like all right, okay.

Speaker 1: 25:58

So I kind of went back in my hole and thought I've got a lot to learn but it's such a I can't think of another way to say like your bubble is.

Speaker 2: 26:07

First, I don't I'm trying to say like grandly, but if your bubble's burst, it's just burst, it's like big, that's a really big bubble. But you do have all these thoughts when you start, and I always. I just find it fascinating I've said it a hundred times that you can be. You know, you're so sure of yourself in whatever your previous career was. You know, you're sure of your position, you're sure of how it all works, um, and then you come into publishing this new thing and you're so naive. But you also, you have all these expectations. You just think that automatically they're going to happen. So, yeah, I just thought, yeah, of course I'll get a billboard, of course I'll be said everyone knows I've got this thing about being on the side of a bus. Of course you'd be on the side of a bus, and I know there's not many TV adverts. But you know you might get a radio ad. But you just assume it's. You're just, they've signed you, they want you, yeah, they're giving you some money.

Speaker 1: 27:09

Of course you're going to be be everywhere. The reality is bus. Did you actually ask?

Speaker 2: 27:11

about that. Did you sit and ask about a bus in a meeting? Tell me you did. No, no, no, no. I didn't. I didn't ask about a bus. But I keep dropping them. I keep dropping so many hints. There's so many emails. I want to be on the side of a bus and I put it everywhere, I put it on social media. I'm honestly keeping if I say it long enough, eventually I'll just just give her the bus and I always say I even I know the bus routes. It's the 47 and the 188 bus. Those are my two bus routes.

Speaker 1: 27:36

I'm gonna crowdfund Nadine, I'm gonna crowdfund a bus advert for you because, honestly, you deserve it.

Speaker 2: 27:42

Thank you, thank you, but it's just I'm saying, you know you had the same things like, well, of course, yeah, tell me about the billboards, where are you gonna put them? They just look at you like no, that doesn't happen.

Speaker 1: 27:56

I know, I think the other thing as well is that everybody thinks you're going to be as rich as JK Rowling. Um, and there's like. No, there's no like in between. You're either unpublished or you're going to be as rich as JK Rowling. Um, and there's like no, there's no like in between.

Speaker 2: 28:05

You're either unpublished or you're published, and therefore, like you're rich and uh, yeah and I think that's where you know when you're talking about um, your agent rejected the first offer and my agent did the same thing. Like we got the offer and I was like what, I'm stunned. And then he goes but we're not taking it. All I said what, what, what, okay, why are we not taking it? And then it was just you just have to trust them. You, they know what they're doing. It's like you, you don't, you're new in this industry, so I had to trust them. I remember I told my brother because he was in the house with me when I got the call and I told him and his whole thing was why aren't we taking it, like we, like the family, why are we not taking the offer? Because Ollie said so and I trust Ollie, so we're just gonna go and see what happens. Even that's a surprise when you the money side of it yeah, yeah, everything.

Speaker 1: 29:04

Honestly, it's been a proper learning curve. In a way, I think any industry would be a learning curve. But I think with publishing everyone's so nice and like we're all so pleased to be. You know, seeing your book in Waterstones or an independent bookshop or anywhere really is just so lovely that there's that whole kind of like gratifying feeling. We're all kind of there for that, um. But the actual business side of it is a really steady learning curve and I've kind of come full circle now. Like I might actually ask in a meeting now am I going to have a tube advert? But this time I would be doing it more in like a kind of you know, trying to to really get to the, to the point of it and kind of push a bit harder, whereas before it was like some kind of innocent naivety, whereas you do realize now that it's like anything else. You know you kind of have to ask for what you want sometimes yeah, you do.

Speaker 2: 30:01

You mean to always say if you don't ask, you don't get, but also, if you don't get, I mean I would always appreciate an explanation as to why you're not getting what you've asked for. And I think you know a lot of what you'll always hear from authors, no matter regardless of whatever stage they're at, is the fact that sometimes there, when you're talking to your publishers, it's like dealing with a parent to say no, yeah, but why is it no? No, I said no and I mean no. I want to know the why, because then if you understand the why, yeah, then you're more accepting of what the final answer is going to be yeah, yeah, that's so true.

Speaker 1: 30:41

But even sales, I don't know about you, but sales are often a mystery and it's completely yeah and it's it's not like a natural thing to be told kind of fairly regularly how your books are selling.

Speaker 2: 30:53

You have to ask for that as well yeah, because I remember um with other debut authors that I was talking to that. For me I think I'm quite lucky that when my books have come out that my editor always lets me know, whether it's for the first month or the first six weeks. She'll let me know how it's doing. Then eventually it always gets to a natural point. Unless you, your book's just done something crazy from the beginning. It continues to do something crazy but it naturally starts to teeter out and then you know it just it's on, just running on an even kill. But she will let me know. But there's been other authors who are published at the same time with me, when we've been speaking and oh, do you know your numbers? And I'm like yeah, and they're like no, they didn't know how many they sold in the first week, didn't know how many pre-orders um had been made, they didn't know how many books they'd sold after a year. And I was like, but you have to you one, they should tell you.

Speaker 1: 31:44

But also you should ask, because it's important, because you need to know where what your position is you have to learn to us, though, because yeah, I think there's like a period of gratitude where you feel like you're the least powerful person in the room because somebody's giving you the book deal and and the gratitude is overwhelming.

Speaker 1: 32:03

And then you get to the point where you think, no, you know, you've bought the book, but I've written the book so we can have more of a collaborative kind of relationship and I'm able to ask questions. Um, and it takes some learning. It takes like a bit of courage as well because, like anything in any job, I remember, like just with teaching in the first time, you stand up in front of like 30 16 year old boys in an inner city London school. You brick it, like you probably brick it and like it's the same. It's the same now. You know, the first time you ask a question, you feel is this okay to ask? Will I offend everyone? And then you get used to just turning it into part of the dialogue. And and there's nothing wrong with that you need dialogue with your publishers, don't you?

Speaker 2: 32:45

yeah, you do. You know, you saw about the first time you're I mean, I can't think of anything worse standing up before six group of 16 year old boys, like 30 of them, even just teenagers. I just couldn't think of anything worse, like that being your first day at school. But then my equivalent would have been that first day I went into court after qualification and I got an accent. I can and I got and I said I can remember what court I went to. I can remember the courtroom. I can remember it was courtroom six at Horsesby Road magistrates court and it was. It was it was first week in May. I can remember all of that. I knew what I was wearing, because I'm wearing my brand new suit and I walked into that courtroom and I remember, I just remember saying to I don't know where to stand and that was the first thing.

Speaker 2: 33:26

Because you suddenly, because everything you've done before it's all academic, it's all theory, it's all you know, it's all. What's the word I'm looking for? Not a case study, but you know you're doing scenarios, the fake scenarios that you're doing, there's a word for it. It all comes to me when I finish the interview, but everything is just fake. And then this is the first day you're doing it for real and I walked into that courtroom, looked at everyone around me everyone seems to know what they're doing and I said to myself I don't know where to stand. I've made a mistake, I need to leave.

Speaker 2: 33:59

And that was the reoccurring thought in my head and then um, well, luckily oh my god, it was such a short hearing I literally all I had to do it was say my name and then say yes, that's literally all I did, because back back then we had these hearings called they were called committal hearings when you sent a case from the magistrates court to the crown court, and for this one it was called, you got all the papers in advance. So you were just going to court, to the crown court, and for this one it was called, you got all the papers in advance, so you were just going to court to tell the judge that you were ready to go to the crown court, that there was no legal arguments to be made. Yeah, just said to me miss matheson. I went yes, um, yeah. Then yes, yes, yes, sir, um, is this case ready to go to crown court? I said yes, thank you, here's the date, and that was it.

Speaker 2: 34:46

And I walked out and I was like a bit stunned, like oh okay, it wasn't what I expected. And then I kind of got disappointed, thinking it's going to be a bit more than that for my first time in court. But you need to get through that initial hump, yeah, and then you know, the next day it gets a little bit. It's still hard, but it gets a little bit easier. So I suppose, like asking you know, when you swing it back to asking questions, it's always going to be hard that first time, but then the next time it gets a little bit easier. So was it easier by the time you wrote your new book, when you yeah, sorry, go on no, when you wrote five nights, was it easier by the time you got then?

Speaker 1: 35:30

yeah, it's loads easier. Oh, you know, like it's number five. So you know what you want to ask. You know what the editing process is like. Um, I knew kind of what the market I wanted was as well, and we all in theory want supermarkets because of kind of bulk of sales, and it's like a dream. But some books are like supermarket books in my head and some kind of maybe are more like hardback on a shelf and I'd always come out in hardback first. So this one we decided to come out with paperback first. It was luxury kind of commercial thriller. It was definitely in my head like a holiday read, like something you read quickly.

Speaker 1: 36:13

It wasn't necessarily a book that you're going to read two or three times, because once you know the twists, you know you're not going to go back and reread it. For I don't know kind of why people reread books. I know I read loads of them over and again, but this wasn't going to be that kind of book. Um, so it, it was going to be a supermarket strategy. That was the plan and I think you don't know that. That's that you make a plan but it's not up to you to implement the plan and you can't be in charge of any. You know you're not in charge of whether or not the supermarkets take your book. It's got really got nothing to do with you. All you get to do is to write the book across your fingers. So it was.

Speaker 1: 36:53

It was a different kind of book, it was a different kind of strategy. So I was quite excited about it. I was like, come on, you know, let's kind of hope this one lands. And we were lucky, it did. I did get, I did get more supermarkets than I'd ever had before, which was lovely. So it was quite exciting because it was.

Speaker 1: 37:09

It was like a different way. We were kind of going out I've never had, I've never had a paperback first. It always been hardback first. But at the same time I knew about editing and I knew about publishers meetings and I knew kind of the questions that I wanted to ask. And then when suddenly you know the promotion takes off, we sit in our pajamas for like 11 months of the year writing with biscuits and cups of tea, and then suddenly you're doing panels or you're doing radio or you're out there talking about your book and there's all of this promotion to do. And again, I was ready for that this time and I was ready for the launch party, because launch parties can wipe you flat, can't they? Do you feel like?

Speaker 2: 37:54

that I've never had one. I mean, I've been to lots, yeah, and they're fun, but no, I've never had one. I think it's only because um jigsaw man came out. The jigsaw man came out in um lockdown, so all the plans that we had literally there were plans, that was, that had been made, it all just, oh, it's not even swept under the carpet, everyone's just got chucked in the bin because everyone was locked down.

Speaker 1: 38:20

So I didn't have a launch party, but hopefully, have one and I will come and we will drink and we will, we will have a lovely time and I might even we can have a goodie bag giveaway let's do that, let's do it.

Speaker 2: 38:38

But you're right, I think you know you my wardrobe. When I'm writing, as I said to my friend the other day, what are you doing? I said I'm just looking for a hoodie and leggings, because that's literally that's all I wear when I'm working on my book and all of a sudden you need to be out. You have to be out promoting and selling. Mostly, you're just selling. You're selling your book yeah, yeah, you do.

Speaker 1: 39:02

You have to kind of do this really intense period of time and then you go back, don't you, because there's always another book, like I'm finishing the next book this week, um, and then I'm starting the book after that on Monday, and Five Nights has been out for less than two weeks. It's mad, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 39:18

it's crazy, you're looking at the date and I was like hold on a second. It hasn't been out that long five now, but this is the thing your book will be out there and it's starting to do its thing. You know it's out on the shelves, it's out in people's plans. You'll see it being blogged about on social media. But the reality is you've already left that book behind you because you're working on whatever you're working on and planning the next thing. And you know you're talking to your agent because he might be asking for a proposal or an outline or something else. So there's so much more that you're working on that. The book that's out there representing you. It's kind of not even you anymore. Yeah, you said bye to it, I know.

Speaker 1: 39:57

And then you sit in interviews, don't you, or panels, and somebody asks you a question and you're like my God, I can't remember what that character. And then it takes you a moment to like dive back in to the book that you're promoting because you're so deep in. I don't know about you, but when I'm in a book, I'm properly in it, like I'm thinking about it. I think about it when I'm in the supermarket. I think about it when I'm going to bed. I run over like kind of plot problems when I'm going to bed. I run over like kind of plot problems when I'm out with the dog, and so it's really hard to lift yourself out of that and then quickly plop yourself back in like a completely different world that you made up a year or so ago. So it's well it's hard.

Speaker 2: 40:36

I I always people will remember me, I'll always talk about. There's this character called Carol in the Jigsaw man and, bearing in mind, I started writing the Jigsaw man in 2016. That's when I would have written the very first chapter of the Jigsaw man and it didn't come out until 2021. And then, obviously, you're still. People are still picking. You know, people pick, which is what you want. They'll pick it up, they'll read it and you'll do events.

Speaker 2: 41:00

And I had this woman in the audience. She was going on about Carol. Like what I did to Carol and you're trying not to let it show on your face, cause I'm sitting there on the on the stage and in my head I'm like who's Carol? I don't remember Carol. I don't remember writing about her. I'm like, literally, who the hell is Carol? And I'm like nodding away while she's asking the question and then the question, and then, when she finished, it suddenly dawned me oh, yeah, carol, yeah, I, yeah, she died. I killed her. I know exactly who she is in the jigsaw man. Yeah, we have to exhume her body. I remember now, but it was that moment of, because I've been away from it for so long, years, years. I've been away from her. I forgot all about her. I have no idea Carol is, I don't know what she's supposed to have, no idea how she's involved in this story. And it just dawns on you, rachel, what surprised you most and what continues, what continues to surprise you about the industry oh, do you know what?

Speaker 1: 42:04

I don't even know the answer to that, to be honest, I think. I think the thing that is constantly a surprise to me is how quickly what you are expected to write, or rather what sells, or what the recommendation to write. You know, there's always like, okay, this is gonna sell, this is the trend for this year. Or this is okay, this is going to sell, this is the trend for this year, or this is, it was uplit for a while and now it's far more recent, and then sci-fi kind of seemed to take off, didn't it?

Speaker 1: 42:31

And you really have to just stick to the book you want to write. But at the same time, I think the more novels you write, the more aware you are of how you want it to sell, because you want a living it moves further away from.

Speaker 1: 42:45

I just would like to see my book on the shelf to. Actually, I want to be able to pay the mortgage as well. So I think that that kind of desire to keep yourself grounded and what you want to write, as well as wanting to write the next bestseller I think that is. It surprised me how willing I am to think about kind of book trends and how easily I can be swayed by what the discussion is about what the next big thing is. But like, 18 months down the line when you finish the novel it will have moved on to something else. So you have to just stick with the book that you want to write, because only you can write the book that you want to write. You want to write because only you can write the book that you want to write. But I think that's there. That's one of the biggest.

Speaker 1: 43:28

I've been surprised by the temptation just to immediately start writing based on what everyone says and like when your editor says or change this. I used to change everything all the time. Now I kind of think, okay, I can, I can think about this, I can have a decision and, in my own opinion, about what I want to change, because I know the characters you know fairly well. Yeah, I suppose just autonomy, isn't it having your own autonomy over your own novels? What about?

Speaker 2: 43:53

you. It's well, I was just thinking, you know, just, I think similar to what you were saying in the beginning. It's like you know what you want to write and you know like, for me, I made a very strong decision not to write legal. I think the expectation was because of my background, I was going to write legal. I was like no, no, no, I'm not doing that. I'm doing the complete opposite. I'm going to write procedurals, even to the extent of I'm not touching psychological thrillers. I'm not doing anything of that. I know my lane, I'm sticking to my lane.

Speaker 2: 44:25

But then I think that comes naturally. Naturally there comes to a point where you you become more, much more aware of the business of it, and then you're not just thinking of yourself as a I call it like the tv movie version of an author, but you're just swanning around in coffee shops and being sent on a cruise by your editor so you can work on yourself and give yourself a break. You start moving away from that and so you're thinking about the business. I think that's what's probably surprised me and it shouldn't have surprised me. It annoys me that it surprised me. But the business side of it. And again then, how I'm now more willing to be much more open to.

Speaker 2: 45:00

Okay, what else can I write? What other like sub genres within crime can I write? Because I need to. I need to expand myself. That's what you need to do and you need to make sure that you survive. You need to give yourself reason to be out there for the long term so you are able to pay your mortgage and go on cruises. Even though I never thought in my life I'd ever go on a cruise because I'm just I can't see my see myself being on a boat for that long. But now I'm like, well, after talking to Rachel, maybe I might.

Speaker 2: 45:29

Yeah, but, I think you know, moving away from the normal moans that people have about you know, about being not being transparent of things. I think that's the surprising thing. Yeah, for me is, and also said the trends, because it's not just. You know we talk about crime, but you know, if you pick up the bookseller for the last month and you're looking at the charts and like the top half of the chart has been dominated by romanticism, and then you find yourself in your whatsapp groups with your friends, with your author friends, thinking saying you know what, maybe I should throw a dragon in the next one, maybe I should branch out it's so tempting though, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 46:11

it's so tempting to look at the selling thing, and quickly, I'll do that. It is really tempting. It's written no it's really tempting.

Speaker 2: 46:19

You think, well, I could do it. But then it's like, would I be happy doing it? And also, how much work would it be to actually do that? Because it's not a natural thing. It's kind of like you're forcing yourself, yeah, to do that. So now I'll leave the dragons and the romance and the heathen bosoms and all that. I'll leave that to um, I mean, I can't even write sex scenes, so there's no point I'm even writing romantic. I normally don't have them like sneaking out there the night the next night. I just avoid it. So this is a question that I like to ask now what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your publishing career?

Speaker 1: 46:58

oh, you know, that's a really hard one, I don't know, I think. I think, remember, it's a business and not just a passion. But then, at the same time, I'm so lucky because I love my job. I don't think about it as going to work. I think about it as like fulfilling this, like dream still, even now. Um, I think the thing I would say to people when people say what's your one bit of advice, if you want to learn, if you want to write, I would say finish the book. Because if I had made an effort on that very first novel to finish the book, maybe I would have been published at like 23 instead of like you know, after having the first child I've got no idea. Yeah, I would say finish the book. That's maybe my one bit of advice. If someone had said it to me I could have acted on it. That's maybe my one bit of advice.

Speaker 2: 47:44

And if someone had said it to me, I could have acted on it. But don't you think that because you had these previous careers now you said you worked for a holiday firm and then you were a teacher as well in a comprehensive school I keep saying with boys, just teenagers but because you had these two careers, do you think it then put you in a better place when you reached, when you reach this stage, when you're now an author?

Speaker 1: 48:08

yeah, definitely. I mean they say write what you know, don't they? And until you know stuff. And I've met so many people and had so many kind of interactions and boys are people. Kids generally are fascinating but like I did have like mixed day levels, um. But boys are fascinating when they're kind of all together in a group. There's like a herd mentality and there's like characters that stand out. And I think when you're writing novels you need to make your characters stand out on the page. So I always think about which characters used to leap out. I'd walk into a room classroom if I had a new class and I would know within two minutes which one or two boys I needed to keep an eye on and call out quite quickly so that they knew I had my eye on them and I'm like why did I know that? What was it about that character that made them a leap out of the crowd? And so I try and do that on the page. You know, that's, that's really useful yeah, I did.

Speaker 2: 49:04

I that was always the number one thing like on my list of when I was starting. Starting my book was about characters and making sure that they were fully formed, because I always thought back to being a solicitor meeting, like meeting my clients for the first time and then gradually you learn, you learn about them, you learn about obviously, you learn about what they've been accused of, but also you learn about their backgrounds and what forms them. And then also most importantly, is that I always said that you can have 10 people charged with the same offence, but everyone's story is going to be so unique to them. They're not, they're not going to be a cookie cup version of the same cliched character. They're all individual. They've all got their unique traits and attributes.

Speaker 2: 49:49

And I always make sure I remember that when I'm creating my own characters, because you don't want to create like stereotypical cliched characters when you're writing your story. You want them to. I mean, you don't want to go to drinks with everyone because some of them are just absolute psychopaths, but I you want to be. You know, if you are writing someone who's supposed to be really scary and you know that you feel the danger, you want to feel the danger with them on the page. And if you want someone, I'll say, like if I used like henley as an example, you know she's going to be rooting for you and she's going to pursue your case to the very end. You want to be convinced by that? Yeah, so that's always what I always think back to my clients. I need to make them like client A.

Speaker 1: 50:33

Yeah, it's so true. I used to say this to the kids when I, when we're talking about texts, and I'd say, like you know, if you're if a character's sympathetic and you you're writing about the character in the, the essay, is it a character you want to go down to the pub with? Is it someone you want to sit down and chat to? And if it isn't, then you're not supposed to like that character. And the rules of describing literature are the same in terms of writing. If you want your characters to be liked, you need to give them those attributes that you need to make them likable, because it's within your control yeah, I think that's.

Speaker 2: 51:08

I think that would be my advice to writers just go for it, don't think about like these are the rules, like I need to make them this way, or these are what the industry is asking for me. Just just write what you want to write, write the characters you want to write, and then just see what you've got at the end, but also know at the end that it's not over, because now you have to edit it the editing begins, it never ends.

Speaker 1: 51:32

Like, even when the book's out, you think, oh my god, that sentence I could have. I try now, once it's published, never to go back to it because I will still see things that I think, oh, maybe I could have done that that way. The first time I ever listened to my novel being recorded as an audiobook yeah, it taught me the lesson that I need to read the entire book aloud before it goes back to my editor. And I do that now because, like, speech is different, spoken aloud just in your head when you're reading it completely but I was, um, I think I was reading an interview of Lisa Je completely.

Speaker 2: 52:04

But I was, um, I think I was reading an interview of Lisa Jewell and she was talking I think she was talking about Ralph's party and I think it must have been coming up to an anniversary. Maybe it's 20 years, I'm not sure. Yeah, I forgot. I read it first time. I met her, I I met and I was very calm. Then, after about 10 minutes, I said to her Lisa, I need to have like a fangirl moment just for a moment. Let me have my moment. She was so sweet, but she was talking about Ralph's party and I think she was saying that she had to, um, go back and rewrite parts of it because it was 20 years later. You know some of the things we talked about and discussed, and 20 years ago it wouldn't, just wouldn't work now, and I remember reading it, reading her interview, thinking, god, I don't know if I could go back over one of my books and read it again and rewrite it. Yeah, again. Well, not rewrite all of it, but rewrite parts of it.

Speaker 1: 52:59

I don't know if I'd want to do that, but then I think that's probably why you avoid probably rereading your early work but remember, nadine, if we were going to be paid for it, we would do it because it's a business and I think that's the whole thing. Like I imagine Lisa Jewell didn't do it as a hobby. Like I don't think personally for any level of satisfaction, I'd want to reread my novels that are published. But if somebody said to me do you know what, if I give you this nice big fat check, will you please? I would more than happily do it. So oh yeah, it's like that learning curve, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 53:35

yeah, business world kind of private passion, yeah it's kind of putting your yeah, putting your personal opinions and your pride to one side to actually get on the yeah, you have to get on with the business of writing books yeah. I think so. Rachel, I have some questions for you. Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Speaker 1: 53:54

I would definitely say both I really enjoy, like being out there and enjoying myself and having a lot of fun, and then I hit a wall and then I need to hibernate for a period of time what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most? Gosh, that's really hard. What, what, what would you say if somebody asked you? I don't throw it on me what challenge or experience?

Speaker 2: 54:21

um, I think I think, if I was talking about experiences for myself, I would definitely say failing exams. When I, I would say, when I completely messed up my A levels and I know why I messed them up it wasn't because I couldn't do the exam, but just because I got bored. And when I get bored I don't put the energy in, I just don't put the work in. And I think, going through that and then having a realization of, oh my god, I've done all this work and at the last minute I've, just because I've got bored, I didn't put the effort in. And then I had to go through the process of clearing to get my university space right yeah, university place. I think, going through that, that experience of I had to go, I did all the emotions of oh my god, my life is over. Literally, I'm never calling my friend my life is over, it's done. What am I gonna do? She's like it's gonna be fun, like no, it's over, I think. But going, literally, I went through that, all those emotions. Then I had to do a pivot really quickly to like, right, what else can I do? How am I going to get into uni? Because I want to go to university, I'm gonna have to go through clearing.

Speaker 2: 55:27

And then I had to. Even at 18 years old, I had to put on like this business hat on. I'm like, okay, this is what you need to do. These are the calls and you know, back then it was all I had. You have to wait for the newspaper to come out the next day. You have to get the times, because then the times would produce the all the clearing places that were available in the universities around the country. So I had to put a plan together. I put a plan together and I sat down on the floor in the hallway with the phone, with my list, calling through the universities, and I think going to that experience was I think, yeah, that was the one that to say it changed me, probably did. It just made me realise there's always a solution. You can always get through it. It's never the end.

Speaker 2: 56:13

And then the irony is is that I ended up going to the university that I wanted to go to. I didn't do law, which I was supposed to. I was supposed to do law and American studies, but I didn't. I didn't do law, which I was supposed to. I was supposed to do law and American studies, but I couldn't do law. But I did American studies in history, which, in retrospect, was what I enjoyed doing. It's what I wanted to do anyway, because I loved history, so it's the right degree that I ended up doing. But I think, yeah, that experience, when I think about it I'm so upset I cannot believe it that's the one that shaped me. All right, I've given you time, but what was yours?

Speaker 1: 56:46

yeah, yours was good, um, so I'm gonna. Can I have two? Um. So one of them, I think, was the first time I went traveling on my own. I think that was definitely like a massive learning curve because I needed to, you know, literally do everything, book ahead, work out which hostels I was staying in.

Speaker 1: 57:06

I went traveling with friends a few times and then I was, and then I decided to do some on my own and then I was meeting up with another friend. So I was, I was literally just on my own, probably about maybe four weeks, and we were doing one of those big backpacking things and, yeah, that was quite a big deal because, yeah, I had to do everything. I had to kind of make my own friends. I had to kind of like plan my day. Well, you know, so much of your day is taken care of when you've got a job, because somebody else gives you a list of things to do. School gives you a list of things to do. University gives you a list of things to do. You sign up to clubs and they're readily available and they're easy to do, but kind of carving out your own time with your own money, kind of in somewhere where you don't speak the language. That was really, really helpful actually, um, and it kind of taught, taught me that I can do it, and then you can remember.

Speaker 1: 57:58

I think once you've been through like tricky bits, you remember, don't you, that you can do it again yeah and then the other one was having a baby and it's such a probably a real cliche, but I had no idea how hard it was going to be like.

Speaker 1: 58:13

The birth was like any birth story long and drawn out and all of the normal things and then being again on my own, but not my own, like in charge of keeping something alive, and days on end.

Speaker 1: 58:30

Yeah, it was such a learning curve as well, like you know all of the stuff that goes along with it, because we used to go to like these classes beforehand and we talked about pain relief during the birth and we talked about all of these different things to do with the birth. And actually the birth is the tiny part of the scary bit. The scary bit is being alone with your own baby and making sure that by the end of the day, everyone's still breathing. So, yeah, that was that was really transformative as well. I think both of those experiences kind of being on my own for the first ever time, completely on my own, and then also being on my own and in charge of something those two things I think are probably like the biggest things so if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 59:19

it would be finish the book. I wish I'd started earlier. I really do, because I started so many times and I didn't. And then I think the other thing would be don't doubt yourself all the time, because I spend so much less time now thinking about all the choices and what. What decisions I should make based on what other people might think than I used to. And an age gives you that permission, doesn't it? Just to be yourself. Um, and I didn't feel like that in my 20s, like I worried all the time about was I doing the right thing? Did I have the right job? Had I made the right decision? Um, yeah, and so there's a lot of freedom. I think comes with being slightly older, and I wish I could have given myself that freedom when I was young.

Speaker 2: 1:00:03

Yeah, yeah, everything seems so much more. It seems so much bigger and also so much more urgent. When you're in your 20s, it's like it's this or nothing. When you're in that, that mid-20s, and once you get past that, you're actually. No, it's not. It wasn't that deep to begin with.

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

And actually those jeans looked fine. My bum definitely didn't look as big in it as I thought it did.

Speaker 2: 1:00:35

What on earth was I complaining about? What was my issue? So, finally, rachel Wolf, where can listeners of the Conversation podcast find you online?

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

So I am Rachel Wolfe writer without the E on Twitter. I couldn't fit Rachel Wolfe writer in so too many letters. I think I'm Rachel Wolfe author on Instagram. Haven't quite got around to setting my own website up. I've still got the Rachel Block one, but I need to do a Rachel Wolfe one. It's just it just keeps scaling down that to do a Rachel Wolfe one. It's just it just keeps scaling down that to-do list. Yeah, but that's it. That's pretty much it. And then if you want to read the book, they're in Sainsbury's and Asda and Tesco's and Waterstones and Indies and all your favourite online places and that just leaves me to say, rachel Wolfe, thank you very much for being part of the conversation thanks for having me, nadine, and thanks for allowing the dog on my knees all the way through, the only way to keep him quiet.

Speaker 2: 1:01:34

It's been lovely talking to you thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the conversation, all you have to do is email theconversation at nadinemathersoncom. Thank you and I'll see you next week.