Kellye Garrett: From Rejection to Acclaim: An Authors' Tales

30% off The Kill List
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What does resilience in the face of rejection look like? Join me, Nadine Matheson, and award winning author, is Kellye Garrett, the acclaimed author of "Hollywood Homicide," as we discuss the emotional rollercoaster of becoming a published author. From our own experiences of facing repeated rejections to celebrating critical acclaim, our conversation offers a heartfelt glimpse into the challenges and triumphs that define a writer's path.

Kellye and I delve into the contrasting worlds of TV writing and book authoring, emphasising the crucial role of community support and the often solitary journey of crafting a novel. We share insights on the pressures of producing work annually, the vital need to focus on personal growth over competitive comparisons and Kellye's new novel,  Missing White Woman.

Missing White Woman
Beautiful. Blonde. Missing. Murdered.

It was supposed to be a romantic getaway to New York City. Breanna's new boyfriend, Ty, took care of everything – the train tickets, the sightseeing itinerary, the four-story Jersey City rowhouse with the gorgeous view of the Manhattan skyline.  

But then Bree wakes up one morning and discovers recently missing dog-walker Janelle Beckett dead in the foyer. Ty is gone, vanished without a trace. 

A Black woman alone in a strange city, Bree is stranded and out of her depth. There’s only one person she can turn to: her ex-best friend, a lawyer with whom she shares a very complicated past. 

As the police and a social media mob close in, all looking for #Justice4Janelle, Bree realises that the only way she can stay out of jail is if she finds out what really happened that night.
 
But when people see only what they want to see, can she uncover the truth hiding in plain sight? 

Follow Kellye Garrett

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I don't know how it is over there, but here people are so quick to be like, oh well, if your book, if you didn't sell your book, it just wasn't good enough. It has nothing to do with racism or sexism or anything, it's just you just aren't good enough. You're not as good as I am, you know. But I'm like that's why I like to tell that story that the same book that essentially got rejected by all those publishers went on to get starred reviews and went on to win these awards, and starred reviews and won these awards. And so I guess what it told me is that a lot of times, you just need opportunity.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, bestselling author, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week, and I'm going to gloat a little bit and let you know that I'm currently recording this intro from the Caribbean. I am not here, I am not in London, I'm in Grenada. I have run away. Sometimes it's good to run away, but I'm not just here for fun. I'm actually going to be doing some work, so don't feel too sad for me. Right before I get on with this show, just a little reminder, because this is only for a limited time only. So I want you all to get the opportunity to get a 30% discount of the third book in the Detective Inspector Angelica Henley series, the Kill List. If you go down to my show notes, you will see a code TKL30 and if you go to to HarperCollinscouk, purchase a copy of the Kill List and use the promo code TKL30 at checkout, you will enjoy a massive 30% discount. And it's so funny because I don't usually look at reviews of my books Like I just don't. We've spoken about reviews and authors reading reviews a lot in the podcast, but I just don't. We've spoken about reviews and authors reading reviews a lot in the podcast, but I usually don't look at them. But I saw one for the kill list. No, it wasn't for the kill list. I saw one for the jigsaw man and it was a five star review and it was a very good review and I was really pleased to see it. But but I was surprised and it's not the first time where I've seen reviewers say, oh, I hope that there's more books, I hope there are more books in the series. And I always want to reply back to them and I can't because it's just a review. I just want to reply back to them, say there are, there are more books in the series.

Speaker 2: 2:19

So if you're coming to this podcast for the first time, if you're just learning about me, nadine Matheson, my Detective Inspector Henley series, starts with the jigsaw man. The second book in the series is called the Binding Room and the third book in the series, which came out last month, is called the Kill List. People who are always coming new to a series always ask oh, my god, can I read it as a standalone? Do I have to read it in order? And no, you don't. They can be read as a standalone. Do I have to read it in order? And no, you don't. They can be read as standalone books, but it's nice to read them in order. So start with the Jigsaw man, the Binding Room and then the Kill List, and that is the series, and there will be more, because I'm finishing book four as we speak. Now let's get on with the show.

Speaker 2: 3:03

Today, I'm in conversation with author Kelly Garrett and in our conversation, we talk about how to move forward when you keep hearing the word no, the fear of success and the fear of failure, and the importance of community. Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Kelly Garrett, welcome to the conversation. Thank you, nadine, I'm happy to be here. So I, garrett, welcome to the Conversation. Thank you, nadine, I'm happy to be here. So I'm so happy to have you here. So my first question for you is that when your first book came out, so that was Hollywood's Homicide in 2017, is that right? It was 2017?.

Speaker 1: 3:38

Yeah 2017.

Speaker 2: 3:41

I know, sometimes you look back at dates and you think it doesn't seem that long ago, but then really you're like oh my god, that was a while ago, such a long time ago, but when you won all these awards for your debut novel. So my question was what did winning all those awards, what did it tell you about yourself and the decision you'd made to write this book?

Speaker 1: 4:03

um, so I finished Hollywood what would be Hollywood Homicide in 2014, um, and got my agent around that time and we ended up taking a year to sell it in the US, right, and so, um and like, every um big publisher rejected it. Really, yes, and because it was like it's funny, you think about it now and there I'm not going to say there's a lot of diversity, but, like, because 2017 was a while ago, there definitely was not any diversity when it came to those type of like, more cozy, amateur, detective, lightweight novels, and so it took us a year to sell it. We sold it to a smaller publisher that did really great books and took a chance on books that other people would not Midnight Inc. And I always tell people that the book we sold did not have a lot of edits, and so it ended up getting, like you said, it won some major awards in the US, it got a couple of star reviews and it's funny because I think I don't know how it is over there, but here people are so quick to be like oh well, if your book, if you didn't sell your book, it just wasn't good enough. It has nothing to do with racism or sexism or anything, it's just you just aren't good enough. You're not as good as I am, you know, but I'm like that's why I like to tell that story that the same book that essentially got rejected by all those publishers went on to get starred reviews and went on to win these awards and and went on to win these awards. And so I guess what it told me is that a lot of times we just need opportunity.

Speaker 1: 5:47

I was going to say I think you see that with like Sean Cosby SA Cosby, who I've known forever, you know he's such, he's so like literally he's like the biggest thing in crime fiction right now, and I think people think he was like an overnight success. Like Blacktop Boysland was not Sean's first book. I bought Sean's first book. I bought Sean's first book, like when it first came out. It was a really small publisher At that time. He had been known for writing really great short stories for years, you know. And so, again, he just needed the opportunity and you see, he got the opportunity, has knocked it out the park with, you know, three books since and is the biggest thing in crime fiction. But I think, for us.

Speaker 2: 6:21

We just need opportunity. I think that's the thing. I think that always comes through when I have these conversations is that people, so they only look at the end result. So, yeah, the readers out there, and even people who are right, who want you know, who want to be writers, want to have their books published only look at the end result, which is seeing your book in the bookshop or seeing your profile, I'll say, in the New York Times or in the Guardian newspaper. That's what they see, but they're not seeing all the work and all of the projects that you've written and probably haven't gone anywhere. They haven't seen.

Speaker 1: 6:51

They don't see all of that and what's led up to that moment yeah, yeah it's, it's a lot and even now I think once, I think a lot of times people think, once you get the book deal it's like happily ever after, and it's still, it's still just. It's different struggles but it's still as many, as many struggles as you know it is. It's not easy, it's a business and I think people forget that it's a business it is what.

Speaker 2: 7:14

So what were you telling yourself during that year when it was out on submission?

Speaker 1: 7:18

and you were getting the nose because that's hard.

Speaker 1: 7:21

I think I was probably depressed. I had such horrible short-term memory, think I probably was depressed. I remember like they always tell you to like. They always like well, just keep writing, distract yourself with another book. I hate writing period. So like I was not, I was just not distracting myself with it, I was probably distracting myself with like bad reality TV and like popcorn. You know, you know, and so I think the same thing and I think you know I've gone on submission since then and it's. The nerves are obviously still there and I'm going, you know I might. I'm out of contract right now after this one. So the nerves are now still there again, like, will I ever publish again? So that's the question.

Speaker 2: 7:55

I was talking to a friend this morning in our WhatsApp group and we were saying, like every book, it's not. There's a familiarity of you know, you're sitting down in front of your computer and you're opening up a bank, a blank page, and there's a familiarity of that. However, even though you've done it two, three, four times before, every time you sit there you're like how am I gonna do this again?

Speaker 1: 8:18

I forget. I'm like I did this before, I did this before four times. What, how, what was I thinking? How did I do it, you know? And I think even, what was I thinking? How did I do it? You know? And I think even for me I tend to forget, like I'll see the finished copy. So I have like my ego law right here I see the finished copy and I'm like, oh yeah, as soon as I opened that word doc and I wrote chapter one, it was just flew out. It just flew out me and was brilliant and it was done and it was not. I forget. I'm like, wait, no, that took five drafts and two major developmental edits, you know, and a copy, edit and a proofread and you know literally like thousands of of my brain, thoughts and brain power, so thousands of hours of brain power. So I forget myself that that the process is not as painful it's a pain.

Speaker 2: 9:00

It's made me laugh when you said I hate writing. It's like why are you doing it?

Speaker 1: 9:04

people always ask me that I'm like I, I like having written, I like the end product, I I love it, I love, I like books.

Speaker 2: 9:12

I just the writing itself is horrible just the middle bit, getting it on the page. What were you doing before that?

Speaker 1: 9:22

yeah, so before I, I worked in television in LA, and so that was like I had the idea for Hollywood homicide 2011. And so at that point, I had worked on a TV show called cold case. I'd gotten let go from the TV show, I had broken up with my writing partner, had taken a couple of odd jobs that I hated, and I was like at a very low point when I got the idea for Hollywood Homicide and it was really like, because I was afraid to write, like to write a book, it was such a low point that I had nothing to lose at that point, so I finally was brave enough to do it.

Speaker 2: 9:58

Why were you scared to write a book? I know it's daunting, but I think you're a writer.

Speaker 1: 10:07

I think it's just. I think there's a fear of success and a fear of failure, right, I've wanted to write a book since I was five, you know, and I think I don't know if I could have handled it if it didn't work out, right. So I think that there's that. I was like I just hate, I hate, I hate writing, you know, and so I think it there's that Also, I just hate writing, and so I think it was a variety. I think I did publish my first book when I was like 38, maybe I can't do that that great, but I was in my late 30s. I wasn't a young person, I wasn't like this young absurd.

Speaker 2: 10:44

But do you think it's a question I've asked other authors before. Are you glad that it's happened now, when you're in the at this age, or you wish it had happened earlier?

Speaker 1: 10:56

no, I mean, obviously it'd be nice to happen earlier, but I think I I respect the process more. I see a lot of I think a lot of newbies, and I get it because it's such an all I've worked in creative fields. Even my day job now is a more creative work in a more creative field. Right, I understand, because it's something usually that people think is fun and they've had it for a dream forever. Like I said, they forget it's a business, right, yeah, and so they think things should be like. They forget like. They think things should be fair, like, oh, I wrote a really good book, so obviously I should get an agent. Obviously you should get published, obviously it should be a New York Times bestseller and obviously it should be like Stephen King level sales.

Speaker 1: 11:34

And it's just because you think that you want that does not mean it's going to happen. And this is not a business like. If you're like, if I go to law school, right, and I graduate and I, you know, get my job, the first job at the law firm, and I put in my whatever 100 hours a week, I'm like, okay, well, I can say maybe in five, 10 years I'll be a partner, literally in five, 10 years from this day today. Right, I could either have five more books out, I could have zero more books out, because this industry doesn't make any sense, but it's still a business. And so I think, having come from Hollywood, which is similar I didn't come in with these like rose colored glasses, you know, and I think sometimes I think people might think I'm a little too bitter, but I just didn't come in with that.

Speaker 2: 12:22

So I don't think it's bitter bitter, I just think it's just being realistic. Because you know, like the example you give of like going to law school, so I went to law school. You know I qualified as a lawyer and I said you can see the progression. So you know that I've said it before. You know that on day one as being newly qualified, I know that, okay, in five years time I should be here and I should be doing these sort of cases. I should be earning this amount of money and after 10 years.

Speaker 2: 12:48

I have. Yeah, it's such a clear roadmap and it's a roadmap that you can either design for yourself or you design it in conjunction with you know with your supervisor, you know with your line managers. But there's a clear line map. But being a writer, as you said, you could be five years. Now I can be in exactly the same place, exactly the same self, or I could even be doing something completely different because it hasn't worked out, or I could be succeeding all expectations.

Speaker 1: 13:16

So I don't think it's bitter right and I came in the gate with Hollywood Homicide like that and I didn't take me like whatever seven years to figure it out. So I think I think sometimes with I want people who are debuts to be excited because it is a dream that they have achieved and they need to enjoy every moment but, like, also just realize it's a business when did you know?

Speaker 2: 13:40

you said you came into it with that, but when did you realize properly that this is a business and that you're just a cog in this machine?

Speaker 1: 13:49

I think I OK, so I don't I try to talk too much.

Speaker 1: 13:55

So my second book the first book OK, and also, they're not even the publisher closed, so they're not even around. So the first book came out 2017. It was a success for my publisher got all the awards. I think it sold. It didn't sell amazing, but it sold well for them and I just the way that they treated me and not that I expected special treatment, but it was still very much like hey, like we want you to come to this event to promote your book, but we're not going to pay for it, so you need to come out of pocket and take time off your job and do all this to work. And it's just like, like I'm like you know, like what are you doing? And then, um, and the to me the moment that I was like this is crazy.

Speaker 1: 14:35

Uh, the second book was supposed to come out and, um, I had messaged him about something and the guy's like oh, oh, by the way, there was an issue in. The book isn't going to be in stores on time. I was like that's a big deal. Why didn't anyone tell you that If my book that I have? I have been busting my butt to promote this book for months and you know it is not going to be in stores on time. There's not going to be in the stores. Why didn't you tell me that Like, why did I have to message you about something completely different? And then it's a oh by the way.

Speaker 2: 15:13

That's not even just a by the way, though. It's so fundamentally important.

Speaker 1: 15:20

You know, and it's like there's an issues publisher and it was literally only my book. They had two other books that came out that same day and because you know I'm my, I will ask, I will message everyone, I will. I'm a detective in real life too, in that sense. So I messaged both other people, like is your book in stores.

Speaker 1: 15:35

Because my book is not in stores? Oh, yeah, it's there. So it's literally an issue with only my book and it's like I get you don't want to tell me because it's bad news, but like I'm gonna look stupid. Like it was like where's your book at? And I'm like, oh, like I look stupid. So that's.

Speaker 1: 15:53

I think that was the moment and I think that moment for me, nadine, where I was kind of like because in my head, my first book was supposed to be a lightweight, funny series. I wanted to be like Janet Ivanovich and just spend the rest of my life, yeah, every year book one, book two, book three, book four, book five, book 30, book 35. That's what I thought it was going to be. And I was on book two and I was like you know what Do I want to do this? It was a three book deal and I was like do I want to continue to write this series right now? Because I'm not enjoying this experience? Like, what am I going to do? And I had been dragging my feet writing the third one and I will never forget. A couple of days before my birthday, october 2018, I feel so bad. Our editor, who was amazing, terry Bischoff emailed and was like oh, the publisher abruptly closed the imprint and didn't even tell anybody, they just abruptly closed it. What? And it was like what you?

Speaker 2: 16:53

abruptly. No advance warning, not even a. You know we got issues. She was shocked. Yeah, no there were.

Speaker 1: 17:02

No, they didn't play anything. It it was just a twist, a surprise spoiler. It came out of nowhere the worst guy. It came out of nowhere and like it was just like what? Like what? I remember, like I think I still have that word doc, if I go. I bet you, the last time I opened it was like October whatever date that they closed October 15th 2018, last time that doc was opened.

Speaker 1: 17:27

Last time that doc was opened, you know, and um, it was hard because it was like, okay, well, this, now the decision has been made for me. Uh, this, unfortunately, the series, because no one's gonna buy a series that's already been. They didn't. Also, they didn't give me my rights back, so they just still have the rights for the first two books.

Speaker 1: 17:39

Oh my god, they wanted me to publish the third book still, and I was like y'all weren't even doing a great job with the books that you were invested in, and now you're trying to tell me that you're gonna do a good job with the third book when you, when the editor's gone and everyone I've worked with is gone, but you're still gonna. It just felt like a money grab to me, and so I made that tough decision. I said, no, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna give them my third book, because I'm thinking long term in my career and I'm not going to have a book that's not been edited properly, right, it's not been promoted properly, it's not going to have a lot of sales to be on my, on my, my quote-unquote record, my, my publishing journey, for future publishers to look at. So I didn't give them the, the third book and, um, I ended up not having a book out for four years.

Speaker 2: 18:30

But I had to think long term obviously, you know, when you said it was a twist and I'm like, yeah, you want. You know, you want twists in the book that you, you don't want these twists to appear in real life not in your career because it could throw you completely off course. This is the thing about perception. You know. Everyone looking out, all they're seeing is Kelly Garrett. Kelly Garrett's got the awards, Kelly Garrett has the books, but behind the scenes it's a whole world of chaos.

Speaker 1: 19:02

I had to be like when the book wasn't in sale, I had, literally I had to go. If you look at my tweets or my Instagrams, like that day it's like oh, sold out already. So I had to literally like pretend like it was, like it was a good thing, then was a good thing, and then we're behind the scenes. I'm literally like putting that tweet up or that Instagram post up, crying because my book has not been, it was not in stores. No one told like, no one was bothering to tell me. Like that's the thing is. You have to present this happy, you know persona like everything's so great, and you're dealing with all this random drama behind the scenes it's so crazy, the stories you tell yourself, like you have to tell yourself in order to get through it, which I love.

Speaker 2: 19:42

It's like no, the reason you can't see my book in the shop because it was sold out. Yeah, is that popular? Yeah, you were just too. You were too late. You should have been. Should have been camping out the night before exactly like this is a black friday in 1999.

Speaker 2: 20:03

Should have treated it like Black Friday, but unfortunately no, but it is. I said it is just it's crazy and it's bizarre. And you know you love to see your books out there when it's all done and you have your books in your hand. That is an amazing moment and you love to hear readers' responses to your work, work. But when you talk about the business side of it and there's so much that goes well, not things that you expect to happen but doesn't happen yeah, I mean I mean you know your imprint just shutting down on a Thursday because they felt like it, I mean that's just crazy. That's not even like we're not gonna let you know what your marketing plan is.

Speaker 1: 20:40

That is just fine, it's even a buy yeah, and I felt so bad because they they did give me the opportunity. Terry Bishop, I will forever love her. She's an amazing editor and she gave a lot, of, a lot of authors who did not write fit into the the tropes of that time but who were talented, an opportunity to to publish amazing books, you know. And so when they, when Midnight Inc shuttered it, it was really hard for the American crime fiction community because that was a bit a publisher that was publishing a lot of good books and I think of people like Jess Jess Lowry was with them Gigi Pondian, may Cobb, like all these people who are really big authors right now in the US, got their start with Midnight Ink.

Speaker 2: 21:23

Because Terry took a chance on that. Well, so you know when you had that moment which is you couldn't prepare for because you couldn't, you couldn't even. It's not like you know, like sometimes when in your career you can kind of see when the sands are shifting, you can see where changes are happening, you can kind of preempt it and you can start making moves to counteract that. But in this, in this case, when you're, I said, your imprint just decides on a Thursday to just shut doors and there's not even an email reply. We can't, we're no longer around. Was there anything in your Hollywood career you know like being let go from cold case? Was there anything that made you deal with that situation in a better way in terms?

Speaker 1: 22:03

of the, the uh imprint. I think it was just a different situation because I, I to this, I just still have a day job, you know. So I think when I lost my job with on the cold case, it was like I literally like lost my job and I'm like where's my income stream coming? Whereas with the book they weren't like they, I, they were. You know, it was a smaller publisher, it wasn't like I was making all this money with it. I was. It was a nice little supplemental income. But my, my, still, my, my bills are being paid by my day job, you know. So it was a slight. It wasn't as devastating from a life's financial life, since it was obviously devastating from a dream, you know, dream sense, um, but it wasn't as devastating from like a, just a like, a like oh, I'll still have food, you know like. Or you know I'll still, you know. So it was a little different.

Speaker 2: 22:49

So and what was it actually? Just me being curious. What was it like working with a writing partner?

Speaker 1: 22:56

it's. It's. It's good because, um, like, obviously you have, you have someone to kind of um do ideas off of, you know, and I think even also just tv in general. I don't know how it is there, I'm assuming it's the same, but they have like a writer's room where it's just like a bunch of really talented, creative folks sit around a conference table and just discuss the story, whatever that week's episode is going to be. They figure out what, exactly what happens, and then the one person goes and writes it based on a whole group conversation. So on one hand, it's really great because you get input from other people and I'm I don't have a. I have an ego, but I don't have an ego in the sense that I think whatever I I always I don't think I always have the best ideas, right, I know that someone like you're gonna have a better idea than me and I want to have the best idea period, not just the best idea I had, you know. So it was great in terms of being able to work with people.

Speaker 1: 23:49

But then on the flip side, especially with TV, like they pay millions of dollars per episode, they're not gonna let you do what you want. So, like the network and the studios are, have a heavy hand in what the final, the final product. They give notes at every stage. They can. They have the final say essentially um, and it's just so many hands in a pot. Whereas with the book, every word in my book I wrote, right, it's my book and I got, I got great feedback from my editor and I've had, you know, critique partners and friends who look at that and give me thoughts. But it's like, if I don't want to do that, it's still my book, right? Whereas if I'm on TV, a TV show, and I say like to like the head of NBC, like I don't want to do that, guess what is going to be done, right, I don't have that power. So I think that that's the good and bad of it.

Speaker 2: 24:42

Whereas, um, like, my book is mine, whereas I think my TV show episode that aired of Cold Case had my name on it, but it was such a, it was a group collaborator, it's like a group project with my name on it whereas like you know, the the book is my project that I worked on, with my name on it, so how do you adjust to that, to going from one place where everyone and their dog is involved in this one, in creating this one episode, and then you're moving to this point where it's just you in a room, your thoughts alone. You have to be your own editor, you have to be your own sounding board you're I, I write it, I write it.

Speaker 1: 25:16

I was very slow process because I write very slow, you know I, I have to have deadlines and even then I miss them, you know. So it's a process. I have to give thanks to my current editor and my agent, helen O'Hara and Michelle Richter, because I know, I know I'm not easy when it comes to getting me to finish this book. It is not an easy process. It's a lot of them having private. I'm sure they must have a whole private chat going on about like how to get Kelly to finish this book, because if you come and tell me it's going to be late, I just forget more and I make it even later, you know. So you have to be like Kelly, how's it going? But I put my point to be gentle, checking in. Yeah, just check it gentle with Kelly. Are you writing, you know? And then I'll be like, yeah, of course.

Speaker 1: 26:01

I am, I'm writing, you know so. So I think that that that that process it's always such a mess and I am a little bit, but a fun mess it reminds me of um, like the first job I had as a qualified lawyer, and I was sitting in the office.

Speaker 2: 26:20

This is like a few months later and one of the um partners he comes into my room and he's looking at my desk and he's like you need to organize your desk, you need to have it. And he was telling me the way he organizes his desk. I'm like, yeah, but this works for me, I know where everything is. Yeah, I know where everything is. I know where the file is what I'm like.

Speaker 1: 26:43

Don't mess with my process whenever I clean up my house, I can never find anything. I'm like wait, I put things to organize them and now I have no idea, whereas, like that pile over there, I know exactly what's in it. If I need to get some random paper with a number on it, I know where to find it, but once I clean up, I have no. Get some random paper with a number on it, I know where to find it, but once I clean up, I have no idea. Like right now, I have a pair of headphones I have. I put them somewhere for safekeeping. No clue where they are. I was trying to find them for this, for this interview, and I was like, oh well, I can't, I can't find them.

Speaker 2: 27:12

Well it's. I mean, god, this morning it's just beyond embarrassing. This morning I sat down at my desk. I was like, okay, I'm ready to start my day and I'm like, where are my glasses? Where are my glasses? I need my glasses, kelly. Where are my glasses? Not literally in front of me on top of my notepad? What is wrong with my desk is a lot. There's a lot going on at my desk, even for you, nadine. This, this, this is you pushed it. You know. You said right. You said earlier that you've always wanted to write since you were five. Did you come from a? It's your family creative, that's not more. No, they're I mean they're reader.

Speaker 1: 27:52

My mother's a big reader, so, like my dad was a doctor, my mom was a psychologist. Like they're like. They're just like more medical, you know like, yeah, but I my mother's bit was a huge, a huge reader. My dad was just super supportive and like when I was like five I told I was like I want to be a writer. And they're like okay, and so I think that that that helps you know what it meant, though you don't consider when you're five.

Speaker 2: 28:22

You say a lot of things. When you're five, I think I wanted to be like five different things. When I was five, did you understand what it meant and then, as you got older, what you would have to do to achieve that?

Speaker 1: 28:31

so I didn't start writing stories then. But I do have a notepad of when I was like still like under 10 of stories I started and even to this day, like I have a good idea I can start a story, but literally it's just like your first. Literally it's like a whole bunch of first chapters of books and so so I think I kind of you think, even then I knew it was going to be hard because I couldn't finish it. I couldn't finish it at like nine, but you know, um, but I don't obviously I didn't know the the details. Just said I wanted to put words on a page and have it be a book and I can read it, other people can read it and then you got there.

Speaker 2: 29:11

What was it like? Like 30 plus years later yeah, 30 plus years later, it doesn't matter when you get there. I don't think you know. I was trying to think how old I was when my first book was published.

Speaker 2: 29:23

I think I think I was 38. I wasn't 40, I think I was. But yeah, it was 2015. I self-published. So yeah, it was first. Even then it doesn't seem that long ago and I'm like, oh god, it was, it was a while ago. But you know, I think you need to go having that experience. You know whether, in just life experience and work experience, I think it helps when you have this moment and also navigating like the craziness of the business.

Speaker 1: 29:55

I think so. I think so too. I think there's good and bad for every year. There's good and bad at 25, there's good and bad at 35, good and bad at 45. I think we said this a little earlier. I do think it came at the right time and it made me appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 30:10

So when you had those I'm not saying it was four years in the wilderness after your imprint closes. It's so beyond crazy to think that you don't like writing, but you wrote these books. You wrote these two books. Your imprint says, well, they don't say it, but you're told that they're closing and you said it's four years later. What did you do in those four years? What did you tell yourself in those four years?

Speaker 1: 30:34

I was on depression, um, I I was working, so I had the idea for, like a sister, maybe 2019, um and so, and it was a, it was a standalone. Um and 2020 happened with the world.

Speaker 1: 30:56

You know, the pandemic happened oh, yeah, that thing, and so I think I kind of remembered the day that I was like you know, the pandemic happened and so I think I kind of remember the day that I was like you know, I'm not going to finish this, so I should probably see if we could sell it on proposal. So I gave, I taught my poor agent I had to talk to her.

Speaker 1: 31:09

I was like you know what, let's try to sell it on proposal. So we sold it on. I wrote I had written most of the books. It was like a 200 page proposal. My agent did an amazing job with it and let's say we went out because it was right around 4th of July, which is a big time obviously here in the US. We went out like that Monday and it was literally 180 from the first experience where it was like we sold it in like four days. We had multiple people interested in it. We got a preempt from Mulholllland.

Speaker 1: 31:42

It was such a different experience and I think it's funny because in my mind, like that was the dream, like oh, what your book is like might go to auction and get, like you know. And I was so stressed out, Nadine, I hated it. I did not like the process at all. I hated everyone I would talk to were. They were so nice to me and they really wanted to publish it and I was like they're going to hate me because I can only choose one. So I did not. I didn't like it.

Speaker 2: 32:06

But I think you know what it is. There's nothing that prepares you for that moment, like all the books you read, all the people you talk to. You know your agent can sit down bullet point by bullet point explanation about how this whole thing works. But when? You're in it, nothing prepares you for it and there's nothing in your past that you can compare it to at all going through that auction process and having people want you yeah, it was interesting.

Speaker 1: 32:31

It was interesting so I would don't. I mean, obviously I still would like to be published again, but I don't know if I want to go through that whole process.

Speaker 2: 32:41

What would you like?

Speaker 1: 32:43

I would just like for one person and like my agent, my editor, now just be like look, let's do it again. Like, okay, here's a good, here's a lot of money.

Speaker 2: 32:51

Okay, like that'd be the dream he does not want the drama, she does not want the stress. She does not want the stress, she just wants to write the book and have it. Here's the money and here it is on the shelf.

Speaker 1: 33:04

Like forget, that sounds perfect so.

Speaker 2: 33:11

I had this question that I've been asking. So what does success mean to you In terms of being Kelly Garrett? The author.

Speaker 1: 33:22

I think it changes day to day. Know, I think today, knowing my book comes out in a couple weeks, it successes that I wrote the book because I said it's not, it's a painful process for me to write. I don't, I realize I'm not a write a book a year person, which I think. Yeah, people think you need to be at least here in the US. I don't know what it's like, I don't know what the pressure is there. I think the same's here, they. I think people think you need to be at least here in the US.

Speaker 2: 33:41

I don't know what it's like. I don't know what the pressure is there. I think the same's here. I think they would appreciate and want you to have a book a year to keep make sure you're constantly being seen. But I can accept. It's hard to do a book a year.

Speaker 1: 33:53

Yeah, it is. It is, and it's especially if you have other things going on, like I have a day job and other stuff was happening with my life, and so it took two years and I hope that my agent and her don't listen to this, but I think I'm a book, a two-year person, but don't tell them. Don't tell them. I'm going to tell them not to listen to this. I think I'm a book, a two-year person, and I have to be okay with that because I feel but there are a lot of people who authors out there, who aren't they?

Speaker 1: 34:27

are, and I hope yeah, I. It's funny because I just, but I just always focus on the people. I'm like oh, look, she has another book out again. Like okay, you know, and especially when it's like look at my career. I came out in 2017 and there are people who've come out after me who have more books, right. So like again, but this is all internal, has nothing to do with them, it's just my. You know my insecurities.

Speaker 2: 34:48

So I think that's the I can't think of the word for it but you know, because this is just how the industry is, the publishing industry is that you are very, very aware of what's happening in terms of who's being published, when they're being published, what hits the best sellers list, what hasn't hit the best sellers list, what's being marketed to hell. And then it's completely right, and you know, when you have communities and circles around you, you're very much aware of what's going on, so you know it can look like oh my god, I need this person who probably published at the same time as me. Their debut, has had like six books out. Yeah, I'm still a book too. I mean it's unavoidable.

Speaker 1: 35:30

I always tell new authors um like eyes on your own paper, like just focus on yourself but like it's like you said, it's just so easy not to it's so easy like today's.

Speaker 2: 35:40

When we're talking, today's Thursday. So in the UK that's publication day, so all the new books that are being released they come out first, and then the States it's Tuesday. So, whether you like it or not, the minute I wake up this morning, I instantly see like happy publication day, or you know to do our offer. So you are very, very much aware of it.

Speaker 1: 36:00

But yeah, you just have to just put your head down, close the door yeah, and the thing is, the only thing you can control is writing the book right, right, like. You can't control marketing, you can't control publicity, you can't control how readers will feel about it. You just can write the best book that you can, but again, that's. It's easier said than done sit down.

Speaker 2: 36:29

It's like yesterday, I think. Was it yesterday? No, the day before I think? It took me like three hours just to write 400, and I know the number because I kept looking at it was like 456 words. Is that it, nadine? Like seriously, that's all you've done. You can do better. You know, it's all very well and good saying I'm gonna write a bestseller, but someday it's just that's the thing is that that's what I'm trying to be.

Speaker 1: 36:47

Okay with that. If I don't write that day, I know me that I'm going to be depressed. If I'm like I didn't write and then I'm not going to write the next day, versus like that's 456 words, you did not have the day before. You know what I'm saying. You didn't have the day before. So I try to be like book's going to be done because it's been done four times before so yeah, you can do it, kelly I can, you can do it too.

Speaker 2: 37:15

We got this I know, today I had a better morning. I was like this is good, this is what writing feels like, like the sun's shining. It's nice, I feel like I'm having a moment, but who knows what will happen tomorrow?

Speaker 2: 37:26

yeah, literally every day is a different journey so just have to take each day as it comes. Yeah, so my question, the question for you has been a co-founder of the crime writers of color, which I remember, which is just. I think one of the things for me, being a crime writer and like coming into this now, is that when I was growing up, always reading crime novels, I think the only black crime writer I knew was Walter Mosley. Right, like I think I would. I can't think of any I know I could like. Back then I couldn't think of anyone else and now I can. You know, I can go online, scroll through Amazon and there's a whole. There's so many, there's so many crime authors of colour.

Speaker 2: 38:12

So, my question for you is like how important is community for you and how important is this community to us as crime writers of colour?

Speaker 1: 38:22

I mean, I think that, like we've been like all these things, we're talking about how you don't know anything, right Like?

Speaker 1: 38:29

and the only way things we're talking about how you don't know anything right Like, and the only way you know because there's no course is either going through it or talking with other people, getting their feedback on it, and things like that. And so I think that's one aspect. That's why community is so important, and I think we have the added thing where we're not just dealing with the everyday things that everybody deals with publishing but we also have to deal with, you know, issues of when you're Black or a person of color, a marginalized person, who has to deal with the inherent, like just racism and just things like that that people don't even think about when it comes to just life in general, but also just in publishing. And so I think it just. I wanted to create Crime Writers of Color to have a safe space to network and support each other. Me, walter Mosley and then Gigi Pondy started it in, I think, june of 2018. And we started with 30 people and now we have over 400.

Speaker 1: 39:20

We have people like you and Walter, and, you know, dorothy Kuzma is in it, and we have all these really great people, and the best thing about it is we all help each other. Like you know, it could be like a person who's never written before. They might like put a question in the group and then some, like big name author like Dorothy, might respond, you know, or Vasim might respond, and it's like, and it's because we all know that if one of us wins, we all win Like, your book success is going to be great for me and hopefully my book success will be great for you for your next deal. And you know, and like Sean's, like Sean's book success. There are people who are just so mad and bitter and jealous of him and I'm like, how could I be when, one, he deserves it.

Speaker 1: 40:01

Two, he's talented. And three, like he, his book success is great for all authors, period, but also especially authors of color, because they're always going to tell us that people aren't going to read. I was oh, they're not going to read books by about black people. They're not going to read that. And sean's proving that that's not true. So now you're when you're when your agent goes out to an editor. They can't use that. They can't use it as a reason why they can't. They have to give you less money or they have to not publish your book. They have to give you another lie. You know.

Speaker 2: 40:33

So it's crazy, you know, when you sit there and you tell people, yeah, um, you know there was I'll say there was a time. You know publishers will say, you know, black people don't. They don't read books. And you're like, well, that's just crazy, that that makes no sense. And because they don't in their head, they say that we don't read books. Well, there's no need to publish books written by black people yeah, that's silly.

Speaker 1: 40:59

Like Walter will tell you that, like when he first came out with his first, the first easy book wasn't a mystery, it was. It was just like a regular story. And they told him people don't read books about Black people don't read books and white people don't read books, black people in it. He was like okay. So then he went and wrote another book about Easy Rollins and it was Devil in a Blue Dress. He made it a mystery and that sucker was huge out the gate because I was. It was like 1990. I was like 12. I the gate because I was. It was like 1990, like I was like 12. I remember this. Like you know, it was huge out the gate and again it's like so you?

Speaker 2: 41:36

can't say that. So you can't say that, and you know, you know. You talk about the jealousy. The jealousy thing is just weird. It's like it takes up so much energy, like you're going to watch someone like Sean, or watch you and say to yourself, you know, find a way to begrudge their success it's, it's it's weird.

Speaker 1: 41:53

It's so because, also, like I'm in my 40s now and so my peers were all like hitting like middle age, and a lot of them are not handling the fact that they're not where they thought. They're not the next Stephen King or they're not the next. You know what I'm saying. Like they, they in their mind they should be at this level and they're not the next Stephen King or they're not the next. You know what I'm saying. Like they, they in their mind they should be at this level and they're not.

Speaker 1: 42:11

And it's interesting to see how they handle it, you know, and it's never like, it's never like straight, because it's never straight up. Like I hate you. It's like, oh, the, you know the joke, the joke, the passive, the jokey tweets or the like. You know like slam it. I don't see the big deal with him, you know, and it's like what you're saying is you think that you're more talented than he is, but you're not. You're gonna think it, you're not gonna say it, and so it's just amazing. And again, it's like y'all, like he's not taking your spot.

Speaker 2: 42:41

I think this is the thing and it's not, and I wouldn't just I'll say it's like all authors, regardless of whatever color, um race they are, I think sometimes there can be a tendency to feel that someone's success, the fact that someone's got to number one or they've got a, you know, they've got the film deal for their book, they've got the all the foreign deals. There's tendency to think that they've taken my spot, this should be mine, and that's not the case. That is not the case at all at all.

Speaker 1: 43:12

It's amazing, it's amazing.

Speaker 2: 43:13

Yeah, yeah, and all you're doing is just, in a horrible way, you just find an excuse to um make up for your like inadequacy.

Speaker 1: 43:22

Sometimes that's what it is exactly, exactly, it's just, it's so it's really fascinating. And again, because it's a creative field, so it kind of brings a different type of person, so logic's not always the case in there, so yeah, how do you deal with it?

Speaker 2: 43:38

if you ever see the the joke, I'll say the jokey in quote streets about you and I mean I don't.

Speaker 1: 43:45

I think people are afraid of me like I'm very I'm very outspoken, like I'm very outspoken, so I think people are afraid of me. I'm very outspoken. I'm very outspoken. I think people are afraid of me. I think most people they talk about me behind my back, but I'll see them with Sean and I just roll my eyes because I'm like we all see what you're doing here we all see what you really mean, what the subtext in this situation is.

Speaker 2: 44:07

I think it's the hypocrisy that gets me like I don't think I could ever be slagging someone. What we will say in the uk be slagging someone off, talking bad about them you know on where, on whatever platform, and then stand your next 10 million above wanting to do selfies oh, of course that's what that's.

Speaker 1: 44:25

The funny thing too is then they'll like want a blurb, something you know they'll want a blurb. They'll have, like, when that person was coming up and they needed the blurb from you, you ignored them. But now that they're huge, all of a sudden you need a blurb from them. All of a sudden you're best friends. I hate it. They're so fake. I hate it. I hate it.

Speaker 2: 44:56

Yeah, I couldn't do it, but I'll be like, let me just stay myself in my little corner, my opinions to myself. I'm not asking for a blurb or anything. So what excites you? There must be fun things.

Speaker 1: 45:01

Kelly, what excites you about this industry now, this world that we're in? Um, I'm excited. I think you're like you said earlier. I'm excited that there's such a wide variety of books being published. Yeah, I'm excited about that. You can publish it. Like I had a series and then I was able to transition to, you know, a standalone. Like we're not as being as pigeonholed as I think it probably used to be in the past. Like, oh, you're a PI writer, you write PI books. Like now you could write PI and you could write standalones. Now you can write PI and you can write standalos. You can write a wide variety. I think there's some really talented people coming up Me.

Speaker 1: 45:33

My own career I'm excited about. I am excited about this book coming out. My publisher here in the US is sending me on book tour. My publisher in the UK, simon Schuster, they're sending me to come to the UK to go to Capital Crime. I'm going to see you there, I can't wait. And so I've never been to the UK, never been to London. So my mom's coming with me, so we're going to come.

Speaker 2: 45:54

It's going to be so much fun, so excited about that we can talk about your new book then, because the new one's called Missing White Woman.

Speaker 1: 46:03

Yes, it is. It's a very. It's funny. I had the idea for the title. Like I never thought it would. I had it. I kept feeling like, oh, they're gonna make me change it, they're gonna make. They never made me change it, but it's the idea of missing white woman syndrome, which I or something happens to her. She tends to get more coverage than a person, a woman of color, having a similar situation happen to her, and so I've always been fascinated with the idea of it and I had this idea.

Speaker 1: 46:42

I was at a writer's retreat in like before times, like 2019, at my friend's row house. It was four stories and I was by myself in the bedroom on the third floor and I couldn't hear anything. And I said I could come downstairs tomorrow and there could be a dead body in the foyer and I'd have no idea how it got there by myself in this big house and I can't hear anything when I'm upstairs. So that was the idea for Missing Missing White Woman that this Black woman is at an Airbnb really nice Airbnb four stories on the top floor, and she comes downstairs the last day of her vacation and her boyfriend is gone and there's this missing woman who's been on all over the television and all over the internet is dead in her foyer and she has no clue how she got there.

Speaker 1: 47:30

But she does know, because she knows how society is. She knows that this woman has been everywhere, she's viral, that she needs to figure out what happened before they start blaming her boyfriend, before they start blaming her, and so that's, that's the book, and it's, it's a it's, even though it has, like, obviously it says like racial, a lot of racial issues, because it has to have. It's just still what I hope is a fun book about a fun, well, funny, relatively right, but like a beach read about, you know, this woman who has, like the, gets caught up in the worst circumstances yeah, how much research do you do?

Speaker 2: 48:04

I mean, there's some things obviously, when we're talking about race, you don't have to do the research because it's life you know what.

Speaker 1: 48:10

So, um, when I was writing this book, this woman named gabby petito, in the us, had gone missing when she took a van, a van road trip, with her boyfriend. He came back alone and she was not with him. It was huge like it was. It was huge and I think it started off because the family asked online and a couple of TikTokers or with the bigger platforms shared the story and then it just kind of took off and next thing, you know, the news is there and everyone is doing it, and so I was using that as research because one I was just interested as a person to see, like, what happened to this poor woman.

Speaker 1: 48:48

But also I was just fascinated because there were a couple of tiktokers that would do multiple videos a day and they would just share any theory. Any thought, like the whole world was looking, because the man was Brian had disappeared too, so the entire internet was looking for him. Remember there was one video of a man who looked like him and they thought it was him and it wasn't, but they shared that and I was like this is so interesting to see these TikTok investigators just putting out any theory and not really caring if it's accurate, like they didn't care that that man, who is not Brian, might get harassed, right Because someone filmed him without his permission and put him on the internet and said it's him.

Speaker 2: 49:32

I watched it, it's so, yeah, it's so crazy, because I think it was last week. I was watching a documentary on BBC. You know the um the force. Was it the force for students in Idaho who were oh, yeah, yeah, and they had, yeah, they had yeah, the college kids.

Speaker 2: 49:47

So they had a documentary on BBC One and I was watching it last week and there was a big portion on. It was about TikTok investigators and for me as a criminal actually I don't think it matters that I'm a criminal lawyer, but me watching it with that criminal background and I'm watching, it's how I'm just going to say it's like irresponsible they can be and there's no care, like you said. It's like, oh, some one guy you know they saw, they saw a guy um no, they saw one of the murder victims standing next to a food truck. So that's a clue. So they go and blast this poor owner of the food truck all over the internet and then people come out of their own craze and you see the people on YouTube and their channels and I'm sitting there like this is at the completely crazy world.

Speaker 1: 50:35

That's got no care in it whatsoever no, that's amazing, you know, and so that's the story, and it's from that perspective of the person who literally is, this is literally their life and they're dealing with this and they have to, again, not just figure out what's going to happening and dealing with the trauma of finding a body, but they have to deal with the internet and getting doxxed and being afraid to be doxxed and all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 50:58

So it's crazy, I honestly, even when I think about that documentary again, because, you know, when you're obviously talking about the case, I remember I was in Grenada when that girl went missing, because we get a lot of America, they get a lot of American channels in Grenada on cable and so all the news channels like every break. You know, sometimes breaking news is not breaking news. The news was that it just turned up at someone's front door but every second was being accounted for and they were continuously talking about this case and then and I think that's the thing you can see that maybe you know, a person of color goes missing in the same time and then there's this radio silence in terms of talking about them and questioning what's happening, what's happened to them, how has it been for you being published in the UK? In addition to it's been?

Speaker 1: 51:52

great it's been different. It's my first time being published there. I love my editor, catherine, at Timon and Schuster UK. I love my team there. You know it's a little different just because it's not um, I'm not there, right. So I like I met my. I met Catherine because she came here, but like I'm not as in, like my main editor is Helen, my U S editor, you know. But I just deal with Catherine with other things like oh, here's the book copy, here's the cover, things like that. So it's a little, it's a little different, but they've been amazing and it's just so exciting to see, like, how cool their cover is and how what they choose to do and to kind of see the different is and how what they choose to do and to kind of see the different how things are done a little differently, you know, in a different country.

Speaker 2: 52:33

So was that you know? When you, when you wrote that first book and it was published back in 2017 did it ever occur to you that this could be a possible? This could be a possibility. This could be part of the dream. No, I never like.

Speaker 1: 52:45

I don't like you always see that, yeah, like you're like, oh, published in this many countries and I'm like what? That's such a amazing experience and the like. I really go on like you know a website. You just see all the covers and like the different titles or different languages. It's really cool to see. So, yeah, I would love ultimate dream too.

Speaker 2: 53:01

So it's, it's and it's also really cool when you're like on Instagram and you get readers from other countries and they think you know, because they're so creative, a lot of these bloggers and they're doing all these creative posts about your books and you know, with their country's book cover and you're like, oh my god, like, and it's important because, like you're, the story you've told, it resonates, yes, around the world.

Speaker 1: 53:24

It's not it's fun yeah, it's especially because you like, you wrote it by yourself in a room right with the computer like that idea I like I always jokingly still call my books my word document. So it's like your word document is.

Speaker 2: 53:39

Now you know it's a rent in Australia okay, before I go into your last, your four final questions. Kelly, what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your writing career?

Speaker 1: 53:55

um, I think, expect the unexpected you know and I think it's. It's just key to keep writing, just to focus on writing. I think that advice is focused on on getting the books done, so so all right.

Speaker 2: 54:07

So are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Speaker 1: 54:13

I think I have. I'm an extrovert and introvert, so people do um, they drain me. So I am an introvert but also like I come across as super friendly and you know um extroverted, but like I'll, like I'll go to like a conference and I'm like friendly and talking and laughing, and then I have to go home and not talk for like two days. You need to shut down. Yeah, I need to re.

Speaker 2: 54:36

I need to recharge, I guess Okay. So what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 54:43

Oh, my goodness, I think recently I don't know if it shaped me the most, but recently I've had a couple of big deaths in my family my dad died very abruptly in 2018. And then my grandpa died after like being sick for six months in 2021. And that was COVID times too, and so it was up to me both times to, like you know, take care of their estate. My grandpa was the last person alive on that side of the family. So, like I was truly like the person packing up our family's house the house that I like, that, like they've had since like 1961. And like I kept.

Speaker 1: 55:24

I kept finding extra rooms because it was a three family house. It was like a basement in three stories and I kept finding extra rooms because it was a three family house. It was like a basement in three stories and I kept finding extra rooms. I was like here's a whole room of just stuff and my grandpa kept he kept everything. So it was good in the sense that like, like I found their marriage, like their marriage license from like 1950 something you know and and I felt like my grandmother's death certificate from like 20 things I needed. But also it was just like here are all of your like electricity bills from 20, 2008.

Speaker 1: 55:52

Like you know like so it was. Just it was like that. So it was a process, you know, and so, like it was, it was. It was hard to like. I never thought I would be the person who had to like sell our family. You to like sell our family. You know what I'm saying. Like I just never encouraged me like wait, someone gonna have to sell the house because I couldn't maintain a three family house. Like it's like yeah, it's 100 years old, um, so that was that was. I felt like that was a struggle, but also I felt like I I wanted to do right. But he was such a good grandfather to me that I wanted to do right by him and I hope he's proud of me that I was able to get the house cleaned out and sold.

Speaker 2: 56:35

And his estate taken care of. I'm sure he is very, very proud. You know, your relationship with your grandparents is such a special one Because even the other day I was and this was on Street View I wasn't even going, I wasn't physically at my grandmother's house, which my uncle still has, because my grandmother passed God, and even then it only dawned on me the other day that she passed, like I think it'll be five years in September and it just seems like the other day. But I was, what was I doing? No, yes, I'm working on the book and I'm on Google Street View. And no, yes, I'm working on the book and I'm on google street view.

Speaker 2: 57:10

And then I thought, oh, and the location I had on street view is near my grandmother's house and I was in north west London. So I thought let me go on street view and see, because I haven't been there for years, because my uncle rents the house out now, and when I went on street view it's the same front door that it hasn't changed since. People like kids and I got all emotional over a front door. I was like that's the front door. I know that front door, let's. We took pictures outside that front. I had my own key to that front door.

Speaker 1: 57:36

Yeah, it's like it's full for me because the house was needed a lot of renovations, you know, and I knew like I was like I felt guilty about selling it, but also I was like I owe it to the house, that the house needs someone who can love it in a way that I can't love. And I sold it and the person like totally like renovated it and it looks amazing, like they changed the color and it looks amazing. And I'm like, and now there are hopefully three more families who will create happy memories and that house like are my family? You know like that house, like aren't my family?

Speaker 2: 58:15

my, you know like that house was good to my family for, you know, whatever 60 years, and so hopefully it'll be good to other families, so, but it was a lot of guilt. Yeah. It's so funny, though, how a house can be like. It can literally feel like a member of the family. It's just an inanimate object.

Speaker 1: 58:25

It just feels like it's family especially because my like yours, like my grandparents did not change. So they lived on the second floor when I was born and then they moved to the first floor when I was like a teenager and they literally took the same exact furniture and put it downstairs in the same exact place. You know what I'm saying. So they made the place look even though it's a whole other floor exactly the same, like the same plastic was on the couch, you know so, like it was, just like it truly was a time capsule of my youth and and all those good memories and the love, like all the love that I felt, that they gave me and I hope I gave them back.

Speaker 2: 59:00

So yeah, you did. I feel like you did, okay, okay. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of, and give yourself one piece of, and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 59:14

I was. That's 20 years ago um doesn't time fly even if I answer the question, I'm like, um, I would just say to not be afraid to write, because I think, as we talked about like it took me such a long time to write the book, like, just don't be afraid to do it. So don't be afraid to do it, and also that each, each hard experience you have is is going to, it truly will make you stronger yeah, you definitely have to learn from it.

Speaker 2: 59:43

You should definitely learn from it. What does you, garrett, do for fun? Oh my goodness I'm just nosy, what do you do?

Speaker 1: 59:52

I spend a lot of time because it's so I think it's so hard where I have the day job and then I also have um writing and then also I have crime ways of color. I do watch a lot of television. I'm really into tarot cards. Um, I'm actually a collector of cards. Yeah, I am. I'm not like super, super, like I will pull cards, but like I love looking at really like pretty or fun or interesting cards. So like, yes, I guess a lot of television, a lot of tarot, a lot of spending time with my family.

Speaker 2: 1:00:23

So it's important. Thanks, thanks.

Speaker 1: 1:00:30

That's how I feel because, like my, my mother had made a joke because I have like probably like 60 tarot card decks, 16 and like six. I have a lot and, like I was like because, especially having just cleaned up my grandparents house, I know like like I'm sure whoever is taking care of my estate is just gonna be like god, another set of tarot cards. But I'm like you know what. They bring me joy, they do. They make me happy to like literally I have the set right here. They make me happy to look at them and, like you know, look at how pretty artwork because it's art and look at and pull cards and figure out what it means and, like I was, like it brings me joy. So they have to throw them all. They just take them all 60, put them right in the garbage after I die. That's fine, because it gave me joy when it needed to.

Speaker 2: 1:01:08

It's just how I feel about my comic books when a new one arrives, even though I look at my credit card and I'm like, oh, there goes the monthly subscription for Forbidden Planet in the clinic and the comics, like maybe I should stop. But when they arrive at my front door and I see that familiar packaging and I open it, I'm like, oh, there's another one. Look at the art. It brings me joy. It always brings me joy. So finally, kelly Garrett, where can listeners of the conversation podcast find you online? Um.

Speaker 1: 1:01:40

I have a website. I don't update, but it's kellygarrettcom k-e-l-l-y-e-g-a-r-R-E-T-T. I'm still one of like the last people on Twitter and that's still my. Even though it's hard, it's still my favorite place. You can find me on Twitter at Kelly Kell K-E-L-L-Y-E-K-E-L-L. I'm also on Instagram, but it's just like pictures of my house and like the graphics my team sends me to put on online Like Barnes and Noble sale, like that.

Speaker 1: 1:02:14

Oh yeah, that was the one I think everyone was doing that that was my thought and it's so funny because, like I was, cause I don't know, do you guys use Canva Like I was? Like you can tell whenever some kind of big sale happens, like sale happens like everyone's on Canva with the same thing and it's like bars and elbow was trending on twitter yesterday and I was like I need to click. I'm like, oh, it's because of that 25 off sale.

Speaker 2: 1:02:35

Like all the authors I know because I'm in the, obviously because I'm in the uk. I got my email from my us publishers about 10 o'clock, half 11 at night. Well, I can't do this. I'm about to go to bed. So I was like the first thing I need to do is go on Canva and update the asset that they gave me so I can post it on the right date. And also, I have to make sure I get the timings right, because we're what? Five hours ahead, yeah, in New York, and I'm like, yeah, so I'm like there's a lot of work for us uk office today.

Speaker 1: 1:03:08

That's how I was feeling too, because there's some I've had some sales too over there and I'm like I want to, I want to hit the right time, that uk people see it. So yeah, trying to figure the math out is tricky.

Speaker 2: 1:03:22

I'm not a math person yeah, there was too much maths that I did not need to be involved in. Yeah, but it was done. So all that leaves is for me, kelly, just to say Kelly Garrett, thank you very much for being part of the conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:03:38

Nadine, I've always admired you, so it was nice to have a conversation. I can't wait to see you in the UK.

Speaker 2: 1:03:43

It was a great conversation, thank you thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine mafferson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the Conversation, all you have to do is email theconversation at nadinemappersoncom. Thank you and I'll see you next week.