The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Shani Akilah: Finding Purpose And Breaking Barriers
We discuss the emotional rollercoaster of navigating rejections, the thrill of securing a literary agent, and the serendipitous events that shaped her creative career.
For Such A Time Like This
A group of young, Black British friends navigate their way through the ups and downs of modern London life, in this richly imagined collection of linked stories.
Follow Shani Akilah
30% off The Kill List
You can get 30% off my brand new book The Kill List on harpercollins.co.uk for a limited time. Add code TKL30 at checkout.
harpercollins.co.uk
Thank you for joining me. Don't forget to subscribe, download and review.
The Kill List (Inspector Henley - Book 3)
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www.nadinematheson.com
Threads: @nadinematheson
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We discuss the emotional rollercoaster of navigating rejections, the thrill of securing a literary agent, and the serendipitous events that shaped her creative career.
For Such A Time Like This
A group of young, Black British friends navigate their way through the ups and downs of modern London life, in this richly imagined collection of linked stories.
Follow Shani Akilah
30% off The Kill List
You can get 30% off my brand new book The Kill List on harpercollins.co.uk for a limited time. Add code TKL30 at checkout.
harpercollins.co.uk
Thank you for joining me. Don't forget to subscribe, download and review.
The Kill List (Inspector Henley - Book 3)
Follow Me:
www.nadinematheson.com
Threads: @nadinematheson
Facebook: nadinemathesonbooks
Instagram: @queennads
TikTok: @writer_nadinematheson
BlueSky: @nadinematheson.bsky.social
I really love doing workshops in schools and just like impacting that you know, younger generation of writers and reminded them of what is possible, because I feel like I mean, I think everyone always gets to where they're meant to be, but I think if I had someone like me speaking to, like the 15 year old me, like what impact that could have had.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, best-selling author Dean Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're having a good week. If you listened to last week's intro, then you will know that I'm currently recording this from the beautiful island of Grenada. I sound like one of those holiday travel programs, don't I? Welcome to the island of grenada, also known as the isle of spice. So, um, yeah, I was gonna say it's not all beach and drinking cocktails. I'm actually doing some work out here. I'm actually working on book four, as I have to deliver that at the end of summer, which I understand has not arrived in the United Kingdom I don't know where it is. Um, I'm just gonna say that you have my sympathy, but I don't know if my sympathies will help you much with your lack of a summer predicament.
Speaker 2:But anyway, this time of year, the book festivals all around the world are in full swing. So we had the start of capital crime. We had crime fest in united kingdom. Um, I think we had the motive festival in canada. There are so many festivals taking place, but I know the thing about festivals is that they can be a bit expensive because you normally have to travel to them. If they take place over several days, you have to find accommodation, so I know they can be a bit expensive, which is why I want you to remember that there are always, always events in your local libraries and in your bookshops, and they are a brilliant way for you to meet authors and, most importantly, you'll be meeting local authors you'll find when you're attending library events and bookshop events. So don't forget, check out your local library and you will find authors that you know and you'll also discover new authors. Library events always a brilliant way to discover new authors and they're usually free a lot of the time as well, so it is why I recommend them. Okay, that was my public service announcement for today, so let's get on with the show.
Speaker 2:This week, I I'm in conversation with author Sharni Akila, and Sharni Akila's debut collection of short stories is out on Thursday, and it's called For Such a Time as this, and you'll hear during the podcast that I met Sharni I say virtually, I think back in 2020, 2020, but I'm not going to tell you about our meeting. You'll discover that during our conversation, but also in this week's conversation. We talk about how writing and being a writer isn't always presented as a career option. The importance of imagining the what-ifs in life and the lightning bolt moment that led Sharni Akala to questioning the why in her life. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Sharni Akala, welcome to the conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, great to be here.
Speaker 2:I'm glad to have you there. As I was saying to you earlier, I'm very excited to have you here.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:When did I first I say met you. Virtually, it must. I'm starting to think it was 2020.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was, it was, yeah, yeah, I think in the summer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, summer of 2020. Yeah, Just to explain for listeners of the conversation, I offered mentoring sessions back in 2020 and Sharni was one of the authors that I mentored, and so like being here fast forwarding now nearly four years to this moment, I'm just, I'm very excited and also very proud.
Speaker 1:thank you so much and thank you for your mentoring as well and offering your time.
Speaker 2:You're welcome, right? So my first question for you, sh, is when did you know that being a writer was the path for you, that this is what you wanted?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good question. So I guess I've always loved writing. I really enjoyed English in school and my parents are both academics, so always kind of growing up around books and we have a library in our house. But I think it was 2019, which kind of marked, I guess, the beginning of the journey for me. So, um, I met Bernadine Evaristo at a local library in in my area, woolwich. Um, she's doing a talk on Girl Woman Other.
Speaker 1:So this is before she won the Booker Prize and I actually went to just support my sister, because my sister there's a lot of hosting and facilitation and she was interviewing Bernadine and so I wasn't really familiar with, like Bernadine, I hadn't read any of her work, but I think I was just really really inspired by what she was talking about and it reminded me actually how much I love writing, and so we connected afterwards and she told me about a monologues class that she was running for under 25s in Greenwich, and so I just made the cut.
Speaker 1:I was 25 at the time and I remember in that first session I was like, oh my gosh, this is the thing that I want to do. It just kind of felt right and I was going through a quite difficult time at work as well, and I was kind of looking for, I guess, elements of joy in my life. And yeah, in that first session I was like, okay, this is the thing that makes sense to me. And so ever since that class, really, I've kind of been working towards becoming a full-time um author and yeah, it's quite amazing that's actually happened in such a short amount of time yeah, didn't?
Speaker 2:it didn't occur to you before the age of 25? Or were you focused on doing, I don't know, something else?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this was never occurred to me as an option. So I studied international development and politics at university and then I did a master's degree in African studies and I always kind of planned to well, I guess from like 17, 18, I wanted to work in the international development space, so working for organizations like the UN. Um, that was ultimately what I was working towards. And having a master's, you kind of need that to work in organizations like the United Nations. Um, I did work in the civil service for like five years. Um, it wasn't in the in in the development space, but it was still kind of in that kind of government, international kind of organizations, realm, um, and so, yeah, like, even though I loved English at school, it was never presented to me as something that I could do, you know, ever.
Speaker 2:I might you know I'm only shaking my head. I'm not shaking my head like I don't understand. I'm shaking my head at because it's such a common theme with all these conversations that I have with so many of the authors that as much as they people have loved reading and love maybe doing English creatively in school, they never realized it was an option to them to pursue English or just to pursue the creative arts at all yeah until they get into their 20s, like, even like in their 30s and 40s, and they realize, oh actually.
Speaker 2:I can do this and it's just like it. It's not a, it's not a new story, not in a horrible way, but it's not new and it's so common and it's so infuriating, it's like why, I know why would you? Not harness the talent early?
Speaker 1:yeah, and I think that's one of the things I'm really passionate about now is like doing workshops in schools of, like, young, young people, just to make them realize this is actually something that you can do. You don't have to do it full time, but to start right, like you said, writing from early and, you know, getting those stories out of you like it's.
Speaker 2:It's really important yeah, were you writing when you were younger, though like writing stories at home not like.
Speaker 1:Well, I remember in English, like English GCSE um, we did creative writing but I wasn't kind of like sitting down all the time writing stories, although my dad did find like a notebook for when I was five and I'd written a story and he made a note. It's like Shana, this is an excellent story. But I know like there's some authors who said that I was writing stories since I was, you know, 10 or whatever. That wasn't really my, that wasn't really my journey. I would say, but I've always loved creative writing.
Speaker 2:I would say yeah did you ever feel like? Because sometimes when I've listened to not necessarily on this podcast I just listen to other authors generally and they've been talking about how they were writing stories at six and seven and they have it all bound and they can remember their stories and I'm like I can distinctly remember writing one story, yeah, when I was nine, which I always said it was just a rip-off of the movie that I'd watched. I wrote my own version and I said I always knew I always.
Speaker 2:I would always go off and do little projects. Yeah, for myself, but I'm thinking I must have written yeah and I think sometimes we can feel like oh, I don't have that same story, so maybe it's so true, it's so true.
Speaker 1:Um, I mean, I think one of the things I've always done me my friend used to do this used to like make up stories. So we didn't write them down, but we would kind of like make up scenarios.
Speaker 1:We used to do that a lot in secondary school yeah um, and I think I've always just think, I think um, marilee Blackman speaks a lot about this in her um autobiography um, just saying about how she often, like as a child, would imagine alternative situations, and I think that's something I would do a lot, even if I didn't write those stories down, you know, it's always in my head right, an alternative viewpoint, yeah yeah, imagining like what. If you know, I think I like doing that a lot.
Speaker 2:I think it's important to have the voice because I just really like to write a lot of um song lyrics. Oh, that's really bad. Yeah, just really bad song lyrics. I used to write and write them for my friend as well. My cousin like and I'd be like, we'll be 10, so we'll be in a band, because I used to play piano. I was like, yeah, we'll be in a band, but I will write the songs no, I never went anywhere, I think always knew that somewhere I was the writer yeah, that's always the role I got yeah allocated.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that so when you, when you, um, when you went to see Bernadine and you said, can you remember what it was in that meeting, anything that struck you? Because I always think there's always something.
Speaker 1:It's always like one thing. So I can't even remember what she said or what the exercise was, but it was just a feeling. It was a feeling of like this is what I'm supposed to be doing, um, and yeah it just. It just really felt right for where I was in that, um, I guess, time in my life because I was really struggling at work and I was just like what am I even doing here?
Speaker 2:like what are you doing at?
Speaker 1:work um, so I worked in project management yeah um in the civil service and I think the particular, there was a particular project that was working and I just had like zero interest in it. It was around um like delivering um like fiber optic broadband broadband to like rural communities in the UK, which in and of itself is like a really great thing to do, but the practicalities of that I just had no interest in it and I think I was really just struggling with like the why. I was like why am I here? And it was just like no, no, join it.
Speaker 2:I think it's important. I think the minute you get to a point in your life and you're asking yourself what is the why, that is always like the big lightning and I can't even speak. Yeah, it's like the lightning bolt moment, which is to say to you so you need to look at yourself now, because now you're asking why, why am I here? What is the point of this? You know, why am I getting up? And you know you spend. I'm saying if you're spending a minimum of eight hours a day doing something, it should be for something where you're not asking yourself why. Yeah, at the end of the day, and I think when you get to those moments, that's when you force yourself to start thinking I need to find a new.
Speaker 2:Why? Yeah work out what my why is in life yeah, and so I think it definitely helped.
Speaker 1:I think discovering writing definitely took me on that journey of like how I wanted my life to be, because I mean not that I'm a big fan of the kind of milestones of being 25, being 30, being 40. But looking back, actually, I'm like, okay, I was 25 and I think making those, making that decision and taking those steps, yeah, like we're very crucial in, I guess, getting to me, getting me to where I am now, and at the time it didn't feel like such like a momentous thing. But looking back, actually, that was the moment. That's the moment it all changed.
Speaker 2:I think when you're 25, you do things and you're not necessarily thinking, okay, this is, this may impact everything I do going forward. Because I think when you're 20, if you know, when you're just in your 20s and in general you don't see in like a final finishing line, you don't see a finishing line to what you're, to life.
Speaker 2:Yet, yeah, life is endless. So any changes you do is like it's well within your capabilities to take on the change and see where the change takes you. So I think when people start getting but then again I think it happens also when people get older they can see the finish line. They're like no, I need to do something. Yeah, I can't get to the end and be like why, why did?
Speaker 2:I spend so much time doing, yeah, this or being with these people for sure, for sure. How did your family respond when you, when you, made the decision right, I am moving away from everything you'd been preparing for to, yeah, this new creative avenue, um so I think that that decision came a lot later.
Speaker 1:So I think in when I was 25, it was like, okay, I love writing, this is a really great hobby, like I want to be a writer for, like published, but I didn't necessarily think about the full-time job element aspect of it. Um, I think it came like a few years later. Um, and again I think I had, I was kind of going through this battle where I was rationalizing in my head like, okay, I'm here, I'm on good money, like it allows me to do the things I want to do, but always keep coming back to like what am I doing here? And I literally went through that process for about maybe two and a half years. Um, and there were some key things that happened as well, which made that process like even more like in my face.
Speaker 1:Um, but there was one day where something happened at work. I don't even know what happened, but I was just like what again? I was like what am I doing here? This is so pointless. Something happened.
Speaker 1:I'd spent ages working on something and it just got all of the work I'd done just got completely disregarded because of a communication issue. Um, like there was a duplication of work and I was just like this is, I'm just wasting my time, like what am I even doing here? And in that same, in that same day and it's funny actually, because Bernadine, I think she's been very instrumental in my journey and I don't think she probably realizes like how much so but that same day, um, so I live in Woolwich, um, at the Woolwich community centre, they had opened a library named after her, so I just went along to kind of support her and like take pictures for her, whatever. Um, and during the Q&A she kept like mentioning me as like really, yeah, so there was one year in the pandemic where I had a post, so I'm a book influencer as well and I had a post that went viral of like all the books I'd read that year.
Speaker 1:I think I'd read like over 40 books that year and it went viral and I think the point she was making was around the importance of um reading to be like a good writer. So she mentioned me, and then she mentioned me again I can't remember what the context was and she was just like Shani, why don't you just come up on stage and like just like speak about your journey? So I did, and again it was that feeling of okay, like this, this feels like the right thing, this feels like what I'm supposed to be doing. And I had spoken to one of my friends earlier that day when work was just just yeah, it was just a mess, and I said to him like I think I actually want to resign because at the same time I was running like a business and it was going really well.
Speaker 1:I had like a good number of clients. I was like, okay, I feel like I can replace my income. And he was like, yeah, like what's the worst that can happen? Like you have you're not, it's a risk that you can take for where you are in your life, um, and so that conversation was in my mind. I had this experience with Bernadine at the library, and then I was really considering resigning. And then I woke up the next morning and I'd received a letter that I'd written to myself the year before. So there's a website called futuremecom. I don't know if you've heard of it.
Speaker 2:I've been, I have and yeah, the funny thing is when you write, when you write the letter, you completely forget yeah, literally no one's having this email pops up in the morning, you're like, what the hell you're like first, who is this?
Speaker 2:I don't know about future whatever, but you're like, oh, it's me, yeah, it's me, and it's funny, I, before the the whole app thing. I started doing that and I can remember when I started doing that and I can remember when I started doing it it was back in 2003, and it was similar. It's kind of similar in the sense that I was working somewhere, I was working for a law firm and I was working in the film. It was basically film finance and I hated it and I always had an amazing view. I had a brilliant view of Tower Bridge. You know I could get to work quickly, was there's so many perfect things about it? But it's that thing. When you wake up, you're like, oh for god's sake, yeah, oh, my god's sake, I'm not. I'm not seeing people. And I wrote myself a letter and I was like you need to open this in five years. Yeah, and I still do that.
Speaker 2:So I will write myself a letter, and every every five years, and put it back in the same envelope for me to open up, so it's similar to um yeah to future. But I think it's good, because on one hand you look and you'd be like, oh crap, I actually did everything I said I was going to do yeah or two. You look and be like was I really thinking this is what was best for me?
Speaker 1:it's like five years ago. It's such an interesting process, so, um, yeah, so I in the letter it was a really short letter, but it basically said Shani, you can't continue to do this to yourself. It was like you need to be brave. He said, like you, of all, people can do it. If what you want to do doesn't exist, make it up. And I had recently started running a virtual assistance business and it was going like really well. I was doing like project management as well, and so I felt like that was the sign that I needed, because I had literally just been complaining. So I got to a point in my career where then, um, and I was like basically due to go for promotion or leave and go to like a different sector. I couldn't stay where I was, and so I was like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna try it out like what's the worst that could happen? I still have my, my skill set to fall back on if it doesn't work out. And so all of this happened before I got a book deal.
Speaker 2:Um, I think some people might think that I got the book deal, then I left, but that that's not actually how it happened, see, but I always think that, and that's just why I call myself a bit of an enabler in this point, in this regards, because if I have friends who are in similar position, the first thing I will say then they're like considering their options, but they're like, well, you know, I don't really want to leave because I have this. You know, you always have the security of work, I have this, and that I'll always be like well, what's the worst that could happen? You can try it. You say no, and if it I mean if it doesn't work out, you have your skill set, you have your experience you can go back and do. You can always do other things. I'd rather you try and see what happens as opposed to just sit there and just keep moaning.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's the cold bit about me, don't just sit there moaning about it for the next four or five years, Like do something now, yeah, so I think my friends were getting kind of sick of me because I was complaining a lot every few weeks. And so, exactly a week, exactly a month later, I got a pre-empt for my book Two pre-empts actually and then, yeah, just amazing things started to happen after that. So, yeah, that was like the start of the journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we've got to go back before you know, before you got the pre-empt, so you started writing your short stories got the um, the pre-empt, so you started writing your short stories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I started writing the collection in the pandemic. So, 2020, yeah, so in 2019 I did a short stories course. Um, because some of the advice I got was to kind of like to write. Writing short stories helps you to one day write a novel, um, to kind of practice the skills, and so I did a. Short stories helps you to one day write a novel. To kind of practice the skills, and so I did a short stories course at City Lit and in the pandemic. Because I wasn't commuting into work. I had a lot more time and space to write in the mornings.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, at the same time, a lot of my friends and I. We were on the day in apps like loads of people were in lockdown.
Speaker 2:Love it us today.
Speaker 1:I had inspiration for what would be the first in, yeah, the collection of short stories about a couple who meet on Hinge, who have the sickle cell trait and they're kind of deciding whether they should continue with the relationship. Who have the sickle cell trait and they're kind of deciding whether they should continue with the relationship, and initially I kind of wanted to explore kind of like black love and dating and how like millennials were navigating that during the pandemic. So I wanted to kind of look at different platforms so Hinge, facebook, instagram, etc. Clubhouse. But then it, I think as time went on and I had various life experiences, the collection kind of broadened to not just include love but friendship, community, like dealing with mental health, dealing with loss, dealing with grief. So it's kind of like a mirror in some senses to some of the things that I have experienced over the last few years, as well as speaking to issues that I thought were important as well.
Speaker 2:You think it's important for, I say, the wider readership, to see this different side of Black lives, and I say Black African and Black Caribbean lives, the lives that we have.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We have a similar background. Everyone knows that my parents, parents, my family's from Grenada. But I'm born here. So you have that. You have that similarity of the cultural importance and then also the fact that you see your own lives. You see lives of your families and your friends. You know how you've grown up and you know what your friendships are like. But then when you look outside and see how we're portrayed, sometimes it doesn't reflect what we know yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So. I think I wanted to, through my writing, reflect the lives of like me and my friends, essentially, and the things that I see not represented in contemporary yeah, black British fiction, although I do think things are definitely changing and I think being a writer now, a Black writer, is a really exciting moment, because I feel like there's still not enough of us, but it feels like there's a lot more of us, and so, yeah, I think it's really exciting.
Speaker 2:I think that's the important thing, for you know, you're talking about being a book I can never get it right a book influencer. I think that's important for being a book influencer, being a black, young, black British woman in this space. It's so important because the fact is, is that you don't think that there's a lot of us out there, whether we're writing literary fiction or crime fiction, like I'm doing, or romance or romanticism or anything sci-fi? But there are. You know, everyone's sitting in their rooms. They're sitting on their laptops in these behind closed doors, working on themselves, working on their projects, but then, because they don't necessarily see themselves, out there they feel like they're the only one.
Speaker 1:it's important yeah, absolutely, and I think that's why it's important that like the Black Writers Guild exists and other spaces where you realize that, yeah, you're not the only one what was it?
Speaker 2:when I go back to when you was, um, when you did the monologue class, what was it like your first day? Because I'm always interested in your first day. Yeah, so it was um, when you did the monologue class. What was it like in the first your first day?
Speaker 1:because I'm always interested in your first day yeah, so it was, um, it was a four-week course and I actually missed the last session because I went to Jamaica and to see my granddad. But, um, I remember, like the first session we had to, it was all about those monologues. So it's all about like dialogue. Well, dialogue was like a large part of it, and then we had to kind of write a monologue from someone that we know and so, yeah, I remember like I traced my gran because I love her conversation, I love my conversations with my gran, my guy and his gran, and it's funny actually, because parts and Bernadine reminded me of this like what I'd written in that session, parts of it ended up being in my collection.
Speaker 1:So I think sometimes there's things that just exist inside of you and they just need to come out, but the form just looks a bit different. But, yeah, it was a really small group of us. I think it was maybe like it was me and my friend did it, my friend from secondary school. So she loved English. We both loved English in in school and I think there was like two others. So it was really like a small group of us, um, but I remember we did. I think that was when I was first introduced to free writing so like just writing for like a few minutes whatever kind of comes to your like, yeah, whatever comes to mind, and that is actually really important part of my writing process now. So I do morning pages, like for half an hour every morning just to kind of just yeah, like brain dump stuff that just isn't in my head. A lot of the time it's like a to-do list, me thinking about all the things I need to do, but often I do. I do write some like good pieces of work.
Speaker 2:Um, so, yeah, when did you realize you were talented, though? Or did you, or did you have to wait for someone to tell you, donna, you're talented. This can be more than what you think.
Speaker 1:It is right now that is a very interesting question, because I feel like in this space there's a lot of rejection. There's so much rejection but, um, I remember, so I wrote, I wrote a short story. So that first short story I wrote, um. So it's now called Loving Crisis, but originally it was called Love in a Time of Corona, and I submitted it to Untitled, which is an online journal for underrepresented writers, and it got yeah, it was accepted. It got yeah, it was accepted. And I think I actually cried because I was like I've been through like so much rejection and I think I had a really bad like work day and it was just really nice to like see that. So shout out to Ollie and the team, wherever you are, if you listen to this. I really appreciated that. So I think that was probably a significant moment. And it's funny because now, when I look back on that first draft, I'm like this is, this is so bad, this is so bad.
Speaker 2:I think that's always the way when you look, whenever you look back at something that you wrote years ago and I think you're you're popping also, it's like that's a beautiful space to be, because when you're writing those first early pieces, you're full of yourself. Yeah, you kind of told yourself I can write, I've written more than a paragraph, I've written pages, there's stories, there's characters, there's dialogue. I'm actually doing the business, I'm doing the thing, and then fast forward to like five years, six years, look back and you're like oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's always like when I talk about the first book I ever wrote, like from page one to right in the end, and I wrote it and I sent it out to agents. I don't think I even edited it or did anything.
Speaker 2:I wrote this book, I finished this book. It's a great story. I'm concerned. I sent it out and then the rejection started coming back and I think I sent it out like in 2006. But when I look back now in 2024, I always tell myself I had absolutely no business sending anything, no business whatsoever.
Speaker 2:But there's a bravery in that moment and I think you can't.
Speaker 1:You need that, you need to have that part of your journey yeah, absolutely, and I think the more you write, the better you become, as well like, the more you read, the better you become, um. So yeah, it's, I think it's all part of the journey.
Speaker 2:It's all part of the journey how did you manage with the rejection, though? Rejections no matter what you're doing in life, yeah, it's not nice to experience, it's not?
Speaker 1:easy. Um, so one of my mentors, as I remember she told me so when the book so the book first went on submission to like a more like uh, what's the word? Went out to a list of editors that like bigger publishers and, um, I got really good feedback. A lot of editors said they like, love my work and they, um, they really like my voice and they're really excited about the novel because initially it went out with as a short story collection and a novel outline. They're really excited about the novel but for various reasons they couldn't take on a short story collection.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think it was really disheartening because it's like I feel like I'm so close but like so far, and the member, az, said to me so, az, she's the writer of um Boy Everywhere. Um, it's a yeah, I don't even know young adult, young adult, yeah, um, she said to me Shani, all you need is one. Yes, that's all you need, and it's so true, and it's just, it's like a pick, it's applicable to like everything in life, like you just need to find one significant partner in in terms of like marriage and relationship somehow john is going on into polygamy in this conversation.
Speaker 2:Advice for life just have one partner like one.
Speaker 1:Yes it's just. It's like just one moment that could change everything.
Speaker 2:That's the advice we understand navigating the dating world because I would say you know, a no is not, a no does not mean the end. For some, people in here to know and as far as, like they're concerned, I know it is literally someone closing the door in their face and locking the door and throwing away the key.
Speaker 2:That's how they see the no, but I just see no's as okay, you got the no, you just need to keep up keep going yeah and try, yeah, try a different path, try a different avenue, because you may find that someone will say yes, or it might be the case that actually. No, I don't even need you to say yes, I can actually do this myself, because I've discovered other options yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:So I think, um, I think that that is has definitely been a really big part of just dealing with rejection, just the importance of keeping keeping going and the tenacity, the resilience, and I think I don't know, I feel like in publishing it just seems a bit more like ruthless for some reason I don't know why, like compared to other industries, but I think maybe it's because writing is so subjective. I'm not sure, but someone could, because I remember, even when I was applying for, like, development programs and mentoring schemes, some of the feedback I got was yeah, we're not really sure about stories that are set during the pandemic. We don't think people are going to like them. Um, but I was kind of like, how do you know that? Because we've never experienced this before, like we've never been through a global pandemic, like, how would you? How would you know that?
Speaker 1:But that was, that was their opinion. Um, and so I think it's. It was really encouraging to me to, I guess, trust myself and believe in my vision, because a few people have said, oh, like, why didn't you set them in a different kind of time frame? And I was like no, like this is where I want the story it would it just like it literally wouldn't work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, um, and you know, even with the kind of short stories element, a few people had said to me yeah, like you know, short stories don't sell well. Um, agents often don't like to represent short story writers. Um, and I remember I speak I spoke to one agent he was, we were talking about representation and she was like, yeah, I can help you kind of turn the novel into this, sorry, the short story collection into a novel. And I was like I don't want it to be a novel, like I want it to be an interconnected short story collection. And so I think the fact that I got a book deal for a short story collection of stories that are set during the pandemic was really affirming to me because, like I believed in myself, basically, and I had an agent who believed in me and I then I had an editor on a whole team who also believe in the book.
Speaker 2:So yeah, what is? What is it about yourself or how you were brought up that gives you that, not that feeling, but that, that belief in yourself, to say you know what, I hear you. Because it's not an easy thing, a lot of people can't do it. A lot of people can't say I hear what you said, I'm taking on board what you said, but I know this is the right thing for me and I'm going to do that yeah, um.
Speaker 1:So I think my parents have always brought me up to kind of believe that I could do anything I wanted to do, um, I think that kind of comes through through some of the characters in the collection, um, but I think, with with this book in particular, I had a very clear vision from the beginning of how I wanted it to be um, and so I think um, and so I think, for whatever reason, I like believed in that um, yeah, and I don't know, maybe things, maybe things would have been different if, I don't know, like, I had gone out to agents and everyone had been like, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1:I might have, I might have changed things, maybe, potentially, I don't know, but I think having an agent who actually like, yeah, believed in what I was trying to do, um, that was that was really really affirming but, um, I think, yeah, from 2020, and it's not even it's been like four years, which is not even a long time at all. But I had a very, I had a very clear vision of what I wanted to do and I've got like. I don't even know if I've got them anymore, but at one point I had like scribbles on a piece of paper of like how I wanted it to be and all, like how all the characters were going to be connected. And yeah, we're going to be connected. And yeah, and I don't even know where the idea, I don't even know where the idea came from, I literally don't know, but that's the vision I had, um, and so I would say I would say the idea came from life because the pandemic was just very strange.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can't listen, you can't compare it to anything else, because you've never experienced none of. None of us said none of us have experienced anything even remotely, um similar to it. The only thing you could probably equate it to is if you've probably been sick off work and you're really contagious the flu or tonsillitis but even that's for even that's for a very short period of time. This was, just say, a solid year of some form of isolation and been having to manage that so within that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I said I always said about the thing about the pandemic. I said you spent, whether you lived alone, you lived with people. You were stuck with yourself.
Speaker 1:You're kind of forced to look at yourself for the first time and look at where you are, who's around you, and look at where your life, where you want your life to be yeah, the pandemic did that, yeah, and, and I mean I think the, the version that you you read through, like lots of edits, is less pandemic-y than it was initially, which I think is better, and it more focuses on the like emotional, I guess experiences of the character rather than, yeah, pandemic. But there are some stories where the pandemic backdrop is crucial, but I think for most of them that's not the case. But even coming up with that first story, I wouldn't have had that idea if not for the pandemic. So it's like I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have a book deal if not for the pandemic, in a sense, um, so yeah, it's just very, it's very interesting.
Speaker 2:It's very interesting did you ever feel a responsibility for not necessarily for the characters, but the subject matters you're talking about? You know, like in the book, like we talk about, I say I say we, like I wrote it you talk about. You talk about sickle cell, for example, because there's so many people don't understand what sickle is, sickle cell is and how it affects um, I say black, the black community, because even my cousin, my first cousin, lives again. I'm going to give a shout out, but she died last year. Yeah, but it's due to sickle cell complications. She lives so much much. She lived much longer than anyone thought she would be, because I think she was 50 when she died. But I don't understand the impact of sickle cell and also the intact. I think it's all about endometriosis and things like that. There's so many things that affect us. Did you ever feel responsibility when you're tackling those subjects?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean I guess I didn't really think about, maybe initially, responsibility. I think it was more about these are topics that impact my friends, people in my community, and I don't see them represented in literature and so I kind of wanted to, or represented enough in literature and I I wanted to speak to that. Um, yeah, because I. So with the sickle cell story I was, um, there was, I used to be a youth leader in my, in my church, and one of the young girls who I was really close to, she had sickle cell and I'd actually never, really I hadn't known anybody up until then, who or anyone I was close to who had sickle cell, and just like the impact that it had on her as like a young person, like navigating school and then in the pandemic, like the, the anxiety that kind of came with that, not just for for her but for her family, for her friends, and just like the emotional toll.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think everyone's experience of sickle cell is different People that have it, some people. It's not as bad for others, but I think it, yeah, it was a real concern for a number of people during lockdown and you know issues of like blood transfusions and you know us all being inside, like it was a really difficult time, so I wanted to speak to that. And then I think, in terms of um, yeah, I guess, like black women's health, um, again it's something. I mean I don't have endometriosis, but a lot of what she has experienced or the characters experience I have gone through, just in terms of, like, yeah, having really bad periods, as you know, a young teenager and rather than investigating the issue, you know you've been told you need to go on the pill without any kind of consultation and it happens, it happens so often. I've got friends now, like you know, who have been identified a lot earlier.
Speaker 2:Um, and so, yeah, I think I just I really wanted to speak to some of those, those struggles and just how we navigate there and how those issues can impact like everyday life when I was reading you know, reading the being talking about the endometriosis and things, because I've had it since I was 21 and I didn't get diagnosed until I don't know I think maybe 31, 32. I know there was a 10 year it was.
Speaker 2:It was at least a 10 year gap between getting the. This is actually what you have, and when I think back then, you know, there was nothing, there's no information you know, I couldn't have picked up a book, a fiction book, and read a short story or a novel about a character featuring you know suffering from this and it is said it is debilitating. It is debilitating like I've spoken about it before on the podcast when you know yeah, when you're collapsing well.
Speaker 2:I'm collapsing at tube stations and operations. So when you're reading the stories, you you're like, oh my God, someone at last, thank God someone at last is talking about it, but also you know that it's not just you, and I think that's always going to be the importance of telling stories and telling relatable stories as well. It's not even about having a responsibility. I don't think you'll necessarily feel like you have to have you have a responsibility when you just feel like these are just universal stories that you're telling and sharing and everyone should just know for sure.
Speaker 1:And I think, um, for me, what's been amazing is that, obviously, like these are. Again, I don't even know. I think I might have just seen something on Twitter about endometriosis and then the idea just popped into my head and then I just was like I would be cool to write a story about that. So I spoke to like a lot of my friends who have it, did a lot of research, but I think what has been amazing for me is writing fictional stories and people really relating to them. Yeah, and even though I haven't like I don't have an individual soul, but people who do, saying like I feel seen, I think that's like that's an incredible part of being a writer to me but I think that's.
Speaker 2:I think that's always what people want, whether you're interviewing someone, everyone, everyone wants to know that they're being seen and they're being heard. If they're reading something and I said it could be fiction, non-fiction, it can be all different varieties of non-fiction. I said it could be from romance and sci-fi. You want to see yourself in there and you want to be able to. You need to be able to resonate and connect to characters and if there's something about that character because I don't have I don't have full-blown sickle cell, but I'm a sickle cell carrier and I have I have family members who have had, who have full-blown sickle cell, but I'm a sickle cell carrier and I have family members who have full-blown sickle cell. So you're reading the story, you can connect to it and you can relate to it. And then also, it's always a good I say device, but it's always a good device. If someone doesn't understand, you can say you know what?
Speaker 2:Let me give you Sharni's book. I'm holding another book which you won't be able to see, but let me give you this book. It's called for such a time as this and you will understand. I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that I love that they say I think I was gonna say, I think fiction is a really great way to kind of be introduced to wider topics or like history. So I remember like when I was 15, I read Half of the Yellow Sun by Tim Amanda Adichie and I didn't know anything about the Bifin War, but that was a really great segue into that topic and I think fiction is amazing at being able to do that.
Speaker 2:It is. Who's the first person you told about first that you got an agent? So we did it in stages. Who's the first person you told about first that you got an agent? So we'll do it in stages. Who's the first person you told you got an agent? Then who's?
Speaker 1:the first person you told that you'd got a book deal. The agent one's a bit tricky because it wasn't like a traditional way I can speak about it, but I could answer the first. Ok, basically, um, I had a list of agents I was going to reach out to. You had like a long, like a long list and, um, I spoke to a few people I know in the industry and I was like, what do you think about this list? And they helped me to kind of make it into a shorter list. Um, and then I had a picture of my colour-coordinated bookshelf that went viral on Twitter and so, yeah, in the pandemic, I colour-coordinated my bookshelf and then I've got this display shelf of the books that inspire me, and one of the books on there is Love and Colour by Bolly Babalola, and a lot of people kept like asking her on Twitter. They were like oh, bolly, look at your book, at your book so.
Speaker 1:I was just like you know what, let me just like slide into her DMs. So I was like, hey, bolly, like I love Loving Colour, like it was really inspiring to me that it was your first um book and it was a short story collection and I'm writing a short story collection. It'd be great to kind of get some advice on kind of approaching agents, because I'm going to be doing that soon and I thought like what's the worst that could happen? Like she, the worst that should happen, she won't.
Speaker 2:That's my life mantra. What is the worst that could happen?
Speaker 1:they say no exactly or like I don't have the time right now, you know, but she got back to me and we had a zoom and um, yeah, like she was just really like really encouraging, really supportive, gave me loads of advice, and she offered to connect to me with her agent, um, juliet, and I just thought it was like just going to be like a general kind of meeting where she was just giving me advice. But she asked, she asked me to send her some of my work and she got back to me like super quickly and she's like I really love like your stories and I think my colleague would be a really great agent for you, like do you mind if she joins our zoom? Um, so Sean came along to the zoom meeting and they were both really like excited about my stories and they loved the fact that I guess I could see myself having a career in writing. I had loads of ideas for like future novels and stuff and I guess, like they like they're ready to represent me there. And then, which was just not like a part of my plan, because I had this whole plan of like I'm going to submit to these agents, I'm going to do my query letters, like the whole thing and I just didn't actually need to do that in the end.
Speaker 1:Um, and so Sian and I we met up in person and in that first meeting she bought me like a tote bag full of proofs from the agency and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. But again, I just I still there's a few agents who, like I want to submit to. So I submitted to three and I got like really nice rejections from all of them and so I was like, okay, cool, like Sian. Sian is the the one you know, but it's so interesting because she never was on my radar as someone I would have submitted to. But she's literally been like such an amazing agent and, yeah, like I guess we've kind of started our well. She, she had worked at Blake Friedman for I think three years before, but I was her first client, so we've kind of like grown together, yeah which has been, yeah, really nice so there's so many different routes to get in and out and you know, we always hear
Speaker 2:stories and I've always think they're good stories to hear, because it's not it's not an easy, straightforward path. You know, it is a path that can be littered, yeah, with projections, but people get agents in so many different ways, literally by sliding into someone's dms, meeting agents at festivals, yeah, and talking to them about their book. I mean, they're not stalking them, but they just generally just end up having a natural conversation. Even the way I met my age, my age, I said I had a list, but even then that was different because I was doing a course and when I did the course they put an anthology together of all the students work and they sent that anthology out to that city was this at city university yeah, I remember you mentioned it, yeah so it was all.
Speaker 2:So. Even then, you know, they kind of did like a bit of the legwork by sending it out to agents. Yeah, and then, in addition to that, the agent I signed with I said no offense, ollie, ollie will understand, that's my agent. He wasn't on my, he wasn't on my radar until my tutor had said to me this is my agent.
Speaker 2:Like you should. You should submit to him. I was like, are you sure? But it's not that I had doubts in myself. I was just thinking I know this industry is hard, I know it's not easy to get an agent to get a publishing deal, so if it doesn't happen I'll just self-publish myself. That was always yeah in my head.
Speaker 2:But he said yeah he was like submit to my agent. So I contacted him and he was like, yeah, send it. But even then I was thinking whatever he'll read it and say thank you, but no thanks, but fast forward. He was like yeah, send it. But even then I was thinking, whatever he'll read it and say thank you, but no thanks but fast forward.
Speaker 2:He was yeah, yeah met him and I met others and I was like, no, it's gonna be, it's gonna be Ollie. And I always said he bought me red velvet cake and I was like, well, that's my favorite, he didn't even know that that was it. It's not even on social media that red velvet cake's my favorite. So I was like, yeah, this is a sign.
Speaker 1:So who was the person?
Speaker 2:you told that you've got your book deal um my sister's in our group chat.
Speaker 1:Yeah how excited were they yeah, I think I've even like I've got a screenshot of it because I used it in a workshop the other day, but they were so, they were so excited, they were so, so excited and, um, yeah, we're actually planning on going out that night. So, actually, because I got two preamps on the same day, so I had messaged them about the first one and they were really excited and, um, we had planned to go out and celebrate. And then so this is 2022, and then, um, I was feeling like I started feeling like a bit unwell that afternoon and I did a covid test and I had covid, which basically just like sums up like the last few years for me. So we went to go. I think we went to go to like. We went to go to like one kitchen and like get cocktails or whatever, the two for one deal, and I was just in bed feeling sick and then, like Sean, my agent, like messaged me again and she was like, oh my gosh, I've got more news.
Speaker 1:And this was like around seven at night and I was like what? And so I messaged her again. I messaged my group chat, my sister's group chat. Again. I was like guys, you won't believe this. So, yeah, that was really great, isn't it weird?
Speaker 2:It's the most strangest experience, I think, when you first get that phone call from your agent.
Speaker 2:I think I didn't even get a phone call. I think the first offer we got mum, it was a text that I got and I was in the back of an Uber and I was going to see my friend. And I was going to see my friend, I was going to my friend's house for dinner. So I'm leaving Deptford, I'm on my way to Streatham, I'm in the cab and I get this text on my phone. Yeah, I'm looking at the text and it's from Ollie and he gives me the first offer and I'm like what? There's no point me even holding my mouth open, because all people hear is dead air. But it's actually dead air. I was like what's that? Oh, my god.
Speaker 2:And then I remember the cab driver. I think I must have been talking to him, to always talk to people. He was like are you okay? Like what's wrong? And I'm like um, um, I need to talk to someone, I need to talk to someone. And then, like my best friend, who was first person, I would have called. She didn't pick up the phone. I called my brothers and they didn't pick up the phone. Did I call someone else? And I'm going to my other friend's house. I'm not thinking to call her because I know I'm going to see her anyway and I got to the point like I'm going to have to call an ex because I need to tell somebody.
Speaker 1:Not an ex.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it's getting that deep. It was like you need to tell somebody that this has happened. And then I got to my friend's house and she was like what's wrong? I'm like we've got an offer, but there's nothing that in any of the books that you read or anyone that you speak to, or even if you speak to your agent, like, oh, this could happen, there's nothing that can prepare you for that moment. Yeah, for that offer. It's great, it's crazy, but it's the best moment.
Speaker 1:Nothing prepares compares you for it it is. I think my agent sent me a text as well, but I think she was like she said I have some news and she put like the IMHs and she's like are you free for a call? At one I was like I can't do one because I've got a meeting. But I can do 12.
Speaker 2:I didn't even get that. It was a Friday night, I think it was about six o'clock. I was like, yeah, so I had the whole weekend of like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. And then we got. And then we got a pre-empt on the Monday. No, no. Then we started getting offers coming in. Then we got a pre-empt and I'd already gone.
Speaker 2:I was, with my agent, gone to see an editor and I was on my way home, yeah, and I got home and my younger brother was at my house because I had some guy come in to fix the carpet. It was that random, it's just live, you're just getting on with life, yeah. And then the minute I got home, after we'd seen this other editor and my agent, he sends me another. I think he called me. Yeah, he called me and he goes right, where are? And he goes right, where are you? I said, well, I'm at home. He goes okay, listen, we've got a pre-empt. And he gave me the pre-empt and I was like my brother had his hand on the door ready to leave and I said to him do not move. He's like what?
Speaker 2:And then some agent goes this is the offer. And I was like it's a good offer. And he goes, but we're not taking it. And I'm like I didn't even say why. I just went, okay, all right, put the phone down. And my brother was like what's going on? And I said they preempted the book. This is the offer, but we're not taking it. And he said why aren't we taking it? Because he aren't we taking it, Like it's not on your side. Ollie said I trust Ollie, I'm like you said we ain't taking it and it was the best thing. It was the best thing. Okay, so who was the first person? Before I move on to your question? So who was the first person you showed your book to and how did you feel when you got your book?
Speaker 1:in your hand when you got the proof.
Speaker 1:Let let me answer that one first because it's fresh in my mind. But, um, it was sent to me on my birthday, on my 30th birthday, and so I opened it then and I just felt like a really like yeah, like, honestly, it was the best present it was from me. Um, so, yeah, I just feel like it just really like signified like a really important moment, like you're stepping into a new decade, as like a soon to be published author, um, so, yeah, I think that was really that was really significant for me, because I think, um, I guess, kind of being in my late 20s, a lot of people around me is like getting married, having kids, but I don't know anybody who's like got a book deal, if that makes sense. So it's like I'm kind of creating my own path in a way, like it's something I haven't seen done before. I mean, obviously, you know I know people like yourself and other writers now, but in terms of my like immediate circle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in terms of your circle of people.
Speaker 1:I'm the only one like people don't know, people that have books like that's not, like it's not a thing you know what there are.
Speaker 2:There are times when it's it's good to be first and it's nice to be first and to be a trailblazer, yeah and I think sometimes people can think being a trailblazer means you have to be a trailblazer in a big, massive way.
Speaker 2:Like you know, you're the trailblazer in the whole entire, for the entire community or for the entire, I don't know, whatever profession you're in, but you can be trailblazers and inspirations for your, for your family and your group of friends. Because then, even if they may not necessarily want to write books, they can see you and say like well, sharni, she wanted to do something, she set out, she made a change and she's achieved this. So I can, I can make changes in my life and do whatever I want to do.
Speaker 2:Even if you just want to sell patties down the market. I don't know why I said patties. I was thinking about beef patties earlier.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, you know what I mean. If I end up buying a patty today, it's because of you. It will be because of me.
Speaker 2:But if that's what you want to do you want to set up a food truck and then patty's down there for the market you'd be like you know what I can do?
Speaker 1:yeah, anything, and I can change my life the way I and you can create your life the way you want yeah, exactly, and it's so interesting because I never really thought about that, like I was just doing this for me, but it's been really, I guess, lovely to see how me doing me basically has inspired other people, because I remember my birthday. Like one of my friends said to me Shani, like you're like the definition of going after your dreams, and I just thought that's so nice, that's such a lovely thing to say, um, but yeah, like it's, it's a blessing to be at this point, and so I'm really grateful.
Speaker 2:What did your parents say when they saw your book? They said we just got the proof. But, I know what I said and I'm what related to you and I was like, oh my God, you did it. I'm so proud of her. Thank you.
Speaker 1:They were super proud. My dad did. He asked me why my acknowledgements were so long. Oh my God, no offence.
Speaker 2:They were super proud, my dad did. He asked me why my acknowledgements were so long. No offense, right, they are long because I was like because I read it and then sometimes in proof copies. So this is the advanced readers copies. Sometimes the dedication and the acknowledgements aren't included because they just haven't done it in time.
Speaker 2:So I wasn't even thinking about it. Like I finished the book I was like, okay, the end. I saw the end, I thought the end. And then it was only yesterday and I was flicking and I was like, oh crap, oh crap, I'm like there's none of them. I thought I think the acknowledgement page for my next book it might just be a page. So I was like I thanked you lot last time time, your acknowledgement, so shiny's acknowledgements go from page 203 in the proof to page 209. And even I was like, oh, my god, I'm in there and I was like, thank you, I wasn't expecting that and that wasn't why I was looking. But I was like you've got five pages worth of proof, no more than that, six pages worth of proof.
Speaker 1:So your dad's saying he likes, he picks up, he skimmed it. He was like why is it so long? But then after he read it, he was like, okay, it makes sense. And I don't know, like I just feel like a lot of people helped me get to this point and so I'm really grateful and like everyone's, everyone's played a part, because I remember, even with the mentoring session that we had together, because I don't even I don't know if you actually remember, but I wasn't officially one of your mentees- no, you wasn't, because I do remember this bit, because I had um, I think I only had like four places.
Speaker 2:I'm doing it from memory, yeah. And then the thing about me I'm one of these people, if I say I'm gonna, I can only give you like a half an hour. I'm like, no, I spend time, I need to give you more. And I'd read your work and I've read it and I just thought I can't and it was about three people who were in the same position. I just thought I can't just let you go, oh, back into the pandemic and just like, just carry on. I'm like I need to. Yeah, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I thought, no, I need to give them time because I feel that they're and I think I said it to you I was like I feel that you're talented and there's something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was like I can give you a mentoring session, because even then I was like I haven't.
Speaker 2:But I thought, yeah, that's what I could do.
Speaker 1:I remember, like getting an email for you, and obviously I was a bit like, I guess, disappointed that I didn't make the cut, but I was still really appreciated that you took the time to to, yeah, to make time like extra time. You didn't need to do that, like no one asked you to do that. But I remember, remember in our session it was really important because I remember you spoke to me about the importance of dialogue and framing dialogue and I hadn't really I wasn't really doing that before, and so I remember that that was a very significant moment in my journey.
Speaker 2:How do you remember it? Because I'm like what did I say?
Speaker 1:I don't even know what extractss I shared when you mentioned the garden. The garden December one, which yeah, whatever you read is like so, so different to what?
Speaker 2:no, I know because I think I have one of these memory I remember strange things and I remember I'm good in a pub quiz because I remember random things. So when?
Speaker 2:I'm reading your work I'm like I know this is different to what I wrote, what I wrote, what I read all those years ago, but because I think it stuck with me, similar to other stories that you had in the collection, because they stuck with me, yeah, I still had that instant connection with it and I could see I can see that it's strangled, obviously. Obviously it's trying. I think this is the thing about writing. You know, you write your first novel, you write your first short story, you do your first draft and you think that's it.
Speaker 1:You think that's it you send it to your agent.
Speaker 2:You think I'm done. It's coming out there, publishers pick it up. No more work needs to be done. But that's just the beginning. That is just the start, because then you're going to be doing rewrites, and yeah, it's, and then copy edits and all these things.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and and even the version that was sent to my publishers versus the version now is so different because I remember Juliet was, she's like to me, you, it's like it's a really strong like manuscript. You're not going to have to like make like many changes. But I think it had basically been a year since I'd maybe, maybe, maybe like nine months since I'd kind of submitted it. So I think I had even improved a lot as a writer and I think having that space away from it really helped actually. And there was a few stories were so gone in December I actually wanted to take it out. I wanted to take it out because I didn't like it, and also the endometriosis story. It just made me cringe. But last summer I basically rewrote the whole thing like both of them. I rewrote those stories like completely. There was like maybe four stories I completely rewrote and I'm so much happier like with them than I was because I remember I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't think we should take this up.
Speaker 2:I was stressed. You know I don't know who said it, someone will tell me who said it. But someone said you know through writings in the rewrite you know, right, yeah, you know in your first draft. Um, you know, stephen King always says you know you write with the door closed for your first draft, because it's just for yourself even when I'm writing the first draft of my new book, I just keep telling myself no one is.
Speaker 2:I'm in this room, no one is seeing this draft except for me, so I can cut it out, which is what I did yesterday, because I don't know what this book is, this whole chapter, and today. I was much happier with it, but then I was like well, door's closed, no one's seeing it and my agent and my editor they they will see the next incarnation of it, so it makes it feel, yeah, a lot better with it. So I'm glad you kept it though, because I know these people.
Speaker 2:It's like seeing my little cousins rock up at a wedding. You're all grown up, right. I have some. I have some questions for you, yeah, before, and I have to change one of them, because the third one is what if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice? What would it be? But I figure we already know that and you already did it okay. So are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:So I think people that first meet me will think I'm an extrovert because I'm very sociable. My friends are literally always saying I know everybody, I'm very bait and I've just come to accept it Like I just love to talk to people. So I just say a lot of people. But I think I would say I'm a mixture of both, because I think at heart, in terms of where you get your energy from, I kind of need moments by myself to feel my best self. My mornings I don't chat to me.
Speaker 1:I'm not trying to talk to anybody, I just need to be by myself. So yeah, I think I would say I'm a mix of the two, but I do thrive in social settings as well.
Speaker 2:I would say yeah you're the hybrid, so what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:so I think, as crazy as the pandemic was, I think it was the years afterwards that were probably the most significant for me, I would say so there was just a period of time for maybe like 18 months where as a family, we went through like endless bereavements and family illnesses, all whilst at the same time, like all of my friends getting married at the same time.
Speaker 1:It was, it was a very intense time, plus writing a book, plus writing a script, um. So I think that just showed me like the resilience that I have, um, and like being able to, I guess, thrive in the midst of really really challenging circumstances. But I do think writing I find it really grounding, like I think I it's not just I do it because I enjoy it, but I feel like it helps me like mentally, um, it keeps me, I would say it keeps me saying like I feel like on the days that I don't write, like I don't feel my best self. And I don't mean like necessarily, you know, writing like pieces of work, but journaling or like doing morning pages, I think that kind of process is a form of like therapy for me and I kind of need to engage with it at least every other day, I would say.
Speaker 2:I always used to say to people when people ask me about what, um, what I like about writing, and I said I can't even explain it but the best way and this might sound strange to people it's like I just love the act of just holding a pen. Like just holding the pen and knowing that's now going to be the start of whatever it is I'm gonna write. I might just delete it all at the end of it, but holding the pen, it's like I love that moment. Yeah, I think it's. I think it probably, if I get all deep and philosophical about it, it's a sign of possibilities. So it's the start of something. Yeah, I love that. So I have two extra questions for you, because I've had to get rid of the what? Because 25? What surprised you most about the industry publishing?
Speaker 1:now that you're in it, you're not just an observer outside it's a really interesting question, surprisingly, I think, maybe, how like inflexible people can be in terms of having like a, a fixed idea about what will sell, what will do well, and, yeah, being like quite risk averse.
Speaker 1:And that's why I think One World my publishers, are like really amazing, because I do feel like they take a lot of risks and they, they take chances on authors and it's led to their success like they've. They've had, like, I think, maybe three Booker Prize winners now in a really short space of time, um, and I think Juliet, my editor, who also is like one of the owners of One World, she's like amazing, like in terms of just seeing something in people and like taking them on. Um, so, yeah, I think, yeah, I think maybe what surprised me was in a, in I guess, a number of circles, people just I guess trying to put you in a box or stick into your genre. And I guess I never really thought about myself as a writer in a genre, I don't know like I just felt like I was a writer, like I never I wouldn't say like, oh, I'm a romance writer or whatever. Um, I never really thought about it.
Speaker 2:I'm just writing, like no but I think that makes absolute sense to me, because you know you're just writing, and not only that you're writing and you're just telling the stories that you want to tell. It's only when you get into the industry, or when you start trying to get into the industry, that either you have to start looking at yourself one as a brand. That's the first thing you have to look at yourself as a brand and then in doing so you have to decide where you fit and how you're going to be categorized, because then I suppose on the publisher's part that gives them some kind of direction of where, of how they're going to market you. But then you said, on the flip side of that comes can come the inflexibility, especially when someone who doesn't know you is trying to dictate who you should be and what you're writing should be, and that's when it comes down to strength of character and how stubborn you are.
Speaker 2:Sometimes they like no exactly even the right work. A stubborn can sounds a little bit steadfast maybe. Yeah, you're steadfast, yeah yeah, no, just all, just yourself. You're just being yourself you know, yourself. Once you know yourself, you can say, you can state what you want yeah, for sure for sure, okay, so what does success mean for you? That's your extra question that you're getting.
Speaker 1:What does success mean to me? Um, I mean, I think it's layered. I need to really think about this question, but I think the first thing that comes to mind is, I guess, being able to write stories that people that see themselves in. Um, so I think one of the and you probably noticed in the collection, it's very South London in parts it touches my heart because I'm like the saying South London and proud.
Speaker 1:Everyone knows that everyone who's from South London is South London and proud. I don't know what's wrong with us South London and proud we're actually obsessed.
Speaker 1:We are because we're the best, but anyway, let's not, let's not upset people being able to like showcase places in south london that I don't feel like have been represented in literature before so well contemporary black british literature anyway. So, like woolwich, um greenwich, like thames mead, those type of places, I think it is important to me to, yeah, to like shed light on, like the communities that I'm part of and other people are part of, like readers are part of. So you know, readers being able to like, yeah, see, oh, like that's that's the bus that I used to get when I was going to college, things like that. I think I that really like warms my heart. Um, I think I mean, I love traveling. I love traveling, I love seeing the world. I think success for me is being able to combine those, those two. Um, I think that's when I'll be like, if I get flown out to like speak at an event, I'll be like okay, cool, like, yeah, we made a chance, like we did it, we did it, we did it.
Speaker 1:Um, I think also, being able to like have a sustainable writing career, so like doing something I love but being paid well for it, or like allows me to live my life, is important, but I think, more so than all of those things, it. It's, I think, being able to give back, and I really love doing workshops in schools and just like impacting that, you know, younger generation of writers and reminded them of what is possible, because I feel like I mean, I think everyone always gets to where they're meant to be, but I think if I had someone like me speaking to, like the 15 year old me, like what impact that could have had and so, yeah, I think, just like inspiring people to, I guess I realised the gifts that are in them and not just writing, but like, I guess, generally as well. But I do think storytelling is an amazing format. So I don't know if that even answers your question. I feel like I went over. You know what it? No, it does answer.
Speaker 2:No, you didn't go from the tangent. It does answer the question. It answers the question the best way, because I think that sometimes, when people ask think about success, they just think about it in terms of finances and the monetary side of it, where success success means so many different things to people. And if all you just said was that success to me is being able to walk into a classroom and show people, show people, show these kids, these teenagers this is the book that I've wrote, this is where I've come from and, yeah, you just I stood at the same bus stop that you stood stand out every morning and you can do this too, like this is all a G4 to you. And then one of those kids, whether it's in five years or could even be in two months, because kids are very funny, these days they can do a lot and they go up and do it.
Speaker 2:I think that that in itself is success. So, no, it's a good answer. Thank you, very good answer. You're welcome. So, finally, where can listeners of the Conversation podcast find you online?
Speaker 1:So I am underscore Sharni Akila on all socials, so Twitter, instagram, tiktok. I've also recently got a website, so shinyandkeelacom, and which I'll be updating regularly in preparation for publication and post-publication, um yeah.
Speaker 2:How excited are you for publication day I?
Speaker 1:am very excited. It feels quite stressful at the moment. There's like a lot of things going on. I have a really good publicist who's just like put me out everywhere, which is amazing, and I think because I'm in like the book world as well as like a influencer content creator. There's a lot of people that I've met over the past few years and like we're doing collaborations now, so it's really exciting. It's kind of like I never really set out to be a book influencer. I just was just like posting reviews on my Instagram to keep myself accountable, but I think it's all like work together and it's all serving a bigger purpose of, yeah, me being an author, which is really, really exciting. So I'm just trying to manage it all.
Speaker 2:I always say God has bigger dreams for you than you can dream for yourself. And then when things happen for you like I didn't even I just imagined just having one part of this, and then all the other things that come to you, yeah, definitely, just weren't expecting it. So all that leaves is for me to say Shani Akilah, thank you so much for being part of the conversation thank you so much.
Speaker 1:It's been amazing being here.
Speaker 2:I've really enjoyed it thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the Conversation, all you have to do is email theconversation at nadinemaffersoncom. Thank you, and I'll see you next week.