Saima Mir: Beyond Excellence

Bestselling  and award winning author and journalist Saima Mir joins me, Nadine Matheson, in a candid, heartfelt conversation as we delve into the importance of inclusivity, representation, and the need for creative freedom. We also share personal stories about character development, the unexpected joys it brings, and the vital role of a robust support system in an author's personal and professional growth.

Navigate the unpredictable landscape of writing and publishing as we discuss the ups and downs of getting a book from manuscript to bookstore shelves. From managing initial expectations, perseverance and Saima's new novel, Vengeance.

Vengeance
For two years, Jia Khan has been running her late father’s organised crime business in the north of England. So far, her authority has remained unchallenged, but now things are beginning to unravel.

When she finds her father’s notebook recounting his arrival from Pakistan in the 1970s, it awakes an old family feud that could have devastating repercussions for Jia. And worst of all, one of her staff lies brutally slain, his corpse displayed provocatively in her garden despite her sophisticated security.

Someone is getting dangerously close. Could there be a traitor in Jia Khan’s trusted inner circle?

Follow Saima Mir

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

And then there's inevitably that conversation about well, we've already got one black police story, we've already got one brown gangland story, so what's you know it's that. And until that goes and I don't know how it goes we'll always feel as if we have to do better.

Speaker 2: 0:23

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, best-selling author, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. Now, in today's little intro, I'm going to talk about communication and the importance of finding your tribe. So let's talk about communication first. Did you know that you can send me a message directly? I'm not talking about emails, I'm not talking about my social media, and all the links are in the show notes, by the way. But if you go to the beginning of the show notes, you will see it says send a text message and if you click on that link, you'll be able to send a text message. And if you click on that link, you'll be able to send a text message directly to me. Feel free to send me any questions about the podcast, about any past interviews that I've had, or if you have, like a burning question that you would like me to ask a future guest, feel free to click on the link and send me a text message. And now on to the importance of finding your tribe.

Speaker 2: 1:26

I strongly believe that it doesn't matter whether you're starting a new job or you're starting a new exercise class or you are a debut author, it's so important to find your tribe. Your tribe is going to be made up of a mixture of people. There will be people who have vast experience. They've been there before. They know the ups and downs, they have advice for you. And there will also be people in your tribe who are just like you. They are just starting out.

Speaker 2: 1:56

If we're talking about publishing, this is their first book, this is their first experience of being a published author, and there are going to be times when you're going to feel like a rabbit in the headlights. And there are going to be times like, if I think back to my first day as a qualified lawyer and my first day in court, I remember thinking I've made a mistake, I don't know anything. So there are going to be moments like that and your tribe will be there to help you through those moments. And, especially if you're a debut author, I think it's quite easy to find your tribe. I mean, you can go on well, the site formerly known as Twitter, known as X, and if you just put hashtag debut so for the year of your debut, if you're coming out 2025, put hashtag debut 2025 I guarantee you you will find authors out there whose debut novels will be coming out in 2025 and they will be looking for that support network, so always try and find your tribe.

Speaker 2: 2:54

Now let's get on with the show. This week I'm in conversation with author Simon Mair and in our conversation we talk about the realisation that writing is a team effort, how black and brown authors have to be more than 10 out of 10 and surprising ourselves as writers with our own books. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Simon Mair, welcome to the conversation.

Speaker 1: 3:21

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 3:22

I'm so excited to chat to you about crying, I know we were saying we're so excited just to see each other on the screen.

Speaker 1: 3:30

Yeah, we don't get to see each other often enough, do we? I feel like we our books came out at different times after the first ones, we kind of pass each other by, but hopefully we've both got one out this year.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Um, we'll be able to be we can see more of each other, right? So sorry, as we're talking about books, like my first question for you is about the Khan, so that was your debut novel and what was the question I like to ask now? It's like, what were you hoping for when you published your first novel?

Speaker 1: 4:03

so, because it took me such a long to get long time to get published, I was just glad to see it out there in the world. Um, because I just didn't expect anything of it and I'd waited so long to get this story into the world and to have this character out there and to find a woman who, uh, looked like me and, you know, had that kind of but by that time I just didn't expect anything of it. And also because I've got quite a small publisher and they're really good at managing expectations. So I just thought, well, it's out there.

Speaker 2: 4:33

I don't really know what's going to happen, but yeah, what did they tell you like in terms of managing your expectations?

Speaker 1: 4:41

Yeah. So what they told me was that hardbacks don't sell. So I got this fantastic editor who absolutely loves. She called jenny parrot and she said to me I just want to tell you that hardbacks don't sell, they're just for marketing purposes. So don't worry, I'm not going to look at the numbers. And then two weeks later I got calls saying uh, wallstones have ordered a massive hardback special edition with blood splatter. So all that went out the window and that kind of set the scene to how the book played after that. So she told me it's not going to do well, don't worry about it. And then it did. So, yeah, it was good and my expectations were properly managed what did?

Speaker 2: 5:18

what did you tell yourself, though? Because one thing someone else telling you like don't manage your expectation. What were you telling yourself, considering you said it took you so long to get it published.

Speaker 1: 5:27

So you have the big dream of like being, uh, a best-selling author. But I didn't expect that at all because, literally, my book took so long to sell and even when it sold, they only found there's only one publisher who was interested in it. It was a tiny advance and there was some great, great books out there, so I kind of had figured out by then. I think it's that I wasn't new, I wasn't green to to life, so I kind of knew all right, this stuff takes more than just you know, jk Rowling, uh, whatever she did with, uh, harry Potter, it's not just she wrote a book and sent it out, there's a big machine behind it and I could figure that out. So I was, yeah, I wanted to, um, I wanted it to do. Well, I just really loved, like when I met you and we were at these festivals and we got to talk about books and I was just hungry, I was, I was desperate. I mean, you know, I was just desperate when did you start writing it?

Speaker 2: 6:29

because we're talking about the Khan, right. How long? Because it took a long time. When did you actually put pen? Pen to paper? Yeah, when did you put pen to paper?

Speaker 1: 6:37

well, I wrote the Khan. I wrote it fast, but it took ages to sell. So I wrote it in 2013. Yeah, I was pregnant, and so I had this time and I thought I had this really naive idea of what parenthood was going to be. So I thought I'm going to write this book and then I'm just going to be this fantastic writer who's just tapping away while her baby sleeps. So I wrote it. Then I wrote it really fast because I'd written as a screenplay and yeah, and then just sat there. I edited it for a long. I'd written as a screenplay, um, and yeah, and then just just sat there. I edited it for a long, long time. I just kept editing it. Every time I did, somebody said no to it. I just kept editing it and then it came out in 2021, 2021, yeah, a long time yeah, that's like what's that?

Speaker 2: 7:22

seven, eight years?

Speaker 1: 7:24

yeah, I know we're not all as fantastic as you, nadine like oh no, don't even bother like you're just so prolific. Um so, and you're right, you know so well, just so prolific, and I don't know how you do it. It's amazing.

Speaker 2: 7:38

I don't feel prolific. I feel like, oh my god, maybe I'm not doing enough. And then I think one book a year is nuts. I don't know why I said I would do this One book a year is a lot.

Speaker 1: 7:49

It is a lot. I'm guessing you write that and then you're also editing another one, or is it that it goes yeah, so I don't know how you do it.

Speaker 2: 8:00

You write one book and it comes back and then you write.

Speaker 1: 8:10

It's just this constant like back and forth, where you're basically having like two manuscripts on your desk and you're switching between the two. I don't know how you do it. And also, the thing I find really hard and I'd love to ask you how you do it is how do you hold the story in your head, like the way I write? Are you a plotter? Are you a big yeah? Yeah, you see, I'm not a plotter. I know the start and I know the end and I know the characters. Um, that's probably why I've just like, I feel like I've got this massive, big ball of a story on top of my head and I'm walking around with it. Um, so I don't know how you do it. It's just, every time I'm on Instagram, you're like I've written a new book and I'm like oh my god it's not like that.

Speaker 1: 8:46

It sounds like I'm doing it every week the thing is, it's quality as well that you're churning out.

Speaker 2: 8:53

It's not churning out, it's like delivering a high quality product and another product and I'm like, oh god.

Speaker 2: 8:59

But the thing is you don't. You don't know until someone comes back to you. Are you your editor on your agent that comes back and says, no, like this is good because you're writing it, but you're always writing in a vacuum. You know it's just you and your screen and your notebooks and your character, so you don't have a clue how it's doing. Or, yeah, you just don't have a clue at all until someone comes back and says, yeah, it's good. So it could literally be. You spent a whole year writing, working on something with just like no input, no, nothing.

Speaker 1: 9:29

Yes, yeah, that's. I don't think people realise that, do they? You don't know how good it is or how bad it is, because I'm not a plotter, so I don't have my character arc on a spreadsheet, I just have to know it. And I'd like to say I'm learning to be a plotter, but I think it's just not in who I am. And if I do that, you can just tell that this is a jigsaw story that I've put together like I do. You know what I mean. Um, so, yeah, you don't know, like I'm writing something now and I've no idea if it's any good. Um, but I'm doing it.

Speaker 2: 10:08

I'm putting pen to paper and churning out words, but what do you tell yourself in those moments, though? Because we all have them and you're sitting there because, I mean, I put everyone who listens to this. Now I'm working on book four, and there's been days, even weeks and months, and I'm working on it and I'm thinking this is I don't know what this is. This is just a. It's a, even though I plan I'm like this story says it's just a mess.

Speaker 2: 10:30

So you just don't know you kind of. You have to tell yourself something you have to keep you just have to keep.

Speaker 1: 10:36

Yeah, don't you? And I think because you're on your fourth now and I'm on my third um, I know from experience that this is how it goes. It always goes like this, and one of the best things about going to these festivals and meeting all these seasoned writers is that everyone says, every time you sit down to write a book, it's like it's the first time and we all go through it. And so I just keep the faith, just like keeping on going till we get to the end and then also have knowing that you've got a good editor right who will turn around. Yeah, this isn't quite working. It's that team effort thing. I never knew that. Did you know that when you started?

Speaker 2: 11:14

no, no, the thing is you don't I've said it before it's like you know how to get an agent, because all the I say the help books out there. It's all about this is what you need to get an agent. This is how you do submissions, but there's this big, massive gap between signing with an agent and then you know getting your publishing deal and then how that whole relationship works. Like I didn't even. I didn't even know about copy edits and I feel like such an idiot.

Speaker 1: 11:42

I didn't know about structural edits, that people actually have structural edits and isn't it crazy?

Speaker 2: 11:47

because you're a journalist, I'm a lawyer and you think you're educated enough not in a conceited way, but you're educated enough to know these things and you don't if we don't know Nadine, now who does know? But I think that's when you realize, like, how important it is to like define your community really quickly, like to find your tribe is in the same boat as you so you can fire off those whatsapp messages at 11 o'clock at night going. What the hell is this?

Speaker 1: 12:23

also the funny thing is because I think about the khan now, but the, the manuscript that I was submitting and I and the manuscript that was by the end of it, and how much I learned for the second book and how the thing I submitted for the second one was so much better. Um, I think what was I doing? Handing that thing and trying to get a deal. But actually that's what their job is, isn't it? To find the nugget of story within it and the fact that, oh yeah, we can shape this and we can help somebody.

Speaker 1: 12:56

And, um, I don't think people tell, tell that, do they? And I know that as, like a brown woman especially although I don't look like a brown woman on this camera, I look really pale. Um, I wish more writers knew that and they took more chances that actually there's a whole team that's gonna help you get to where you want to get to do you think we don't take enough chances, like black and brown writers, or you don't feel like we just don't feel like we can, because it's so yeah, I think I felt like we can't, I feel that we can't take enough chance.

Speaker 1: 13:33

That's how it is and I felt like that and I still feel like that the thing I have to deliver has to be really high level. I think, you know, we're lucky, we've got good publishers, we've got great teams, but the overarching structure of publishing isn't where we'd like it to be, is it? When we go to these events? There's still only a few people of color there? Um, and I sort of think the bar for where? I don't think it's, I'd like to say my um sister said that. She said and I think it's a quote in vengeance, which is something like my aim is to live like a mediocre white man, which is, you know, I'm only laughing.

Speaker 2: 14:17

No, but it's okay, it's not. But because that is literally I was, I was gonna say and I think how can I say it without demeaning myself? I was like I would like to get away with being mediocre, for a day yes. And then having that to be acceptable.

Speaker 1: 14:32

But you feel like you can't.

Speaker 2: 14:33

You feel like you always have to be. You can't even just be 10 out of 10. You have to be more than whatever 10 out of 10 is. Well, you do don't you.

Speaker 1: 14:41

You have to be more than 10 out of 10, because immediately when the manuscript goes, it's not just a story. It's a story about a black woman, in the case of Henley, or, you know, it's about a brown woman, in the case of Jihan. And then there's inevitably that conversation about well, we've already got one black police story, we've already got one brown gangland story, so what, what's? You know it's, it's that, and I, until that goes, and I don't know how it goes um, we'll always feel as if we have to do better it's such a weird thing to say, though it it's like it sounds a bit ridiculous.

Speaker 2: 15:25

But if I go back to being a lawyer and I look at my client list, I'm not going to say well, I've already got like five white clients, I'm not going to take any more. I've already got four Southeast Asian clients, so I can't take any more.

Speaker 1: 15:39

Southeast Asian dependents no more. Yeah, not going to take any more. No, it's fear, fear, isn't it? And I think it's this ease they forget that a story is just a story. Uh, when you get into a really good story, you're not remembering. Um, it adds texture, doesn't it? But it's not the story no, I was.

Speaker 2: 16:00

I was doing an interview and we were doing like a pre-interview before the actual interview. And they asked me because obviously, you know, I'm a black crime writer and my character, my main character in my book is a black woman. They asked me oh, why isn't there enough? Um, why isn't there more black female crime writers? And I'm like I literally said to them I don't have an answer, not because I can't think on, but there really is no good answer as to why there isn't, because it's not. As if, you know, back in 2013, you weren't sitting in your room writing your book. I wasn't sitting in my room writing my book. We're out there, you know, we're all writing our books, but between writing your book, finishing your manuscript, it'd be forget the Adrian bit a publisher saying we want it. There's some kind of war there that they're not prepared to say they're, they're not prepared to look to go past. There's some kind of block which doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1: 16:54

So I one of the things I do is I do some work for the SI leads literary prize and it's a prize for unpublished work by black and asian women, and one of the things we find is that when women enter um these competitions, it's almost like we need to give people permission to write sci-fi with black women in or with asian women and I know you love sci-fi and I know you love and it's almost as if it's it's the stories that we hear it's really hard to get into publishing and actually it is, but some of it is.

Speaker 1: 17:29

There needs to be support systems for women who want to write these stories and men who come from different backgrounds, because if you're not seeing someone around you who's doing it, you don't know how to get there. It's a big job, isn't it? You've written your book and then you've got to go and find out how to get an agent and find out how to meet and so, and then you've got to go and develop those relationships, um, but if you come from a background where you already know a writer and you've made some writers, and it's just much easier, isn't it? Yeah, I think those levels of privilege, it's that I mean it's sad and it gets.

Speaker 2: 18:05

I was. It's those levels of privilege. I mean it's sad and it gets. I was talking to a friend about this last week and I said it just gets frustrating. People are having the same old conversations all the time. No one's able to say you know? No, they'll say we're going to do better. But you're like, okay, you said you're going to do better last year and nothing's happened.

Speaker 1: 18:25

It's the dismantling of the middle, middle bit. So what I found was the commissioning editors really want these books and the people right at the top who were in charge say we definitely want these books. But what happens is the business structures don't reflect the numbers. So when they, it's the way that they decide which book they're going to buy, because they have to look at old numbers, don't they? That's how they do it. They're like well, you know, um nadine's book do did really well, the jigsaw man was fantastic.

Speaker 1: 18:56

So we've got here are statistics for what books like this, you know, and people, writers like this can do, and so what that means is the next person who goes in can maybe get a book deal because you've got the numbers. But if you're the first person breaking into the room and this is what happened with khan there's no figures and they literally say things like but where will it sit on the shelf? My agent was like next to richard osmond, that's where it's going to sit on the shelf. What do you mean? Where is it going to sit on the shelf? You know, that's really a question. And, richard Osman, it's sandwiched in the middle, it's alphabetical in the crime section.

Speaker 2: 19:32

But it's going to be a question where is it going to sit?

Speaker 1: 19:35

where is it?

Speaker 2: 19:36

how many copies do you think you want? Like, how are we going to market it? Those would be the questions that you should be asking, not well, where you know well, where will we place it? In the bookshop, the same place you place everyone else's book and they don't know anything.

Speaker 1: 19:50

Because one of the things I I one of my favorite things about the Khan, when it sold and it was marketed and people were buying it, was you know who was buying it? Middle-class white men. I loved that. I just absolutely loved it, because it's always women buy crime fiction. Then it's this story of well, south Asian women don't read, and actually that's rubbish as well, because a number of South Asian women who love books and have book clubs and come to the events, come to, you know, mainstream festivals. But also it's just like the book might have had a brown woman as a protagonist, but actually no one was reading it.

Speaker 2: 20:30

The same guys were reading Mario Pio puso, the godfather. So yeah, because it's a good crime story, it's a good thriller, and you know, you know those. You said those white middle-class men who are reading um, reading the khan, and I'm sure pretty much they weren't members of an italian crime family. You know, when they read the godfather they've got no relation they were reading the pasta recipes.

Speaker 1: 20:50

They were reading it for the, you know, the cannoli? Yeah, totally, but that's it. It's that kind of thing that needs to change and I, I mean, I'm with you. We've been to enough festivals where I'm sure you've got asked dodgy questions.

Speaker 2: 21:05

You must have done like, why are you laughing? Because the thing is, you can kind of predict when the dodgy question is coming from the very first word and you just think you know. On the outside I call it my lawyer face. I just put on my very calm, no emotion lawyer face and inside I'm like probably every swear word. It's like I'm regurgitating in my head and I'm thinking again, like again, this should just ask yeah, just ask me about my book, ask me about the story. You can even ask me where I got my characters from. Ask me about the next book, you know. Ask me what my hopes and dreams are. Yeah, not why? Yeah, I hate the question. Why did you choose to, um, write about a black character, a black woman? Why did you make her your protagonist? I'm like well, one, why wouldn't I but two? What does it matter?

Speaker 1: 21:56

yeah, yeah yeah, so many, so many obvious answers to that question isn't there. Why would you ask that obvious question? Why would you? Because she's a great character. That's why I knew you were inside out. Yeah, she's cool.

Speaker 2: 22:13

She's got issues. I want to knock her out. Even right now, I'm in a scene where I'm fixing it and I'm like Henley. Honestly, you really need to have a word of yourself, because this is not good.

Speaker 1: 22:27

How do you feel when that happens, when your character does that?

Speaker 2: 22:32

Well, I kind of like it. I like when they do things unexpected because you can plan all you want. You know, as I said, I'm a planner, so I do plan my books. I know how it's going to, you know start, middle and end. But also there'll be changes in it, especially when you're working through the draft. So, like I've kind of done the finished, I'm two thirds of the way finished through the first draft, but I'm I've already started the second draft. This is just my weird process. But, um, I know there's things that are going to change. I'm like I know I need to put in, like I need to throw in the red herring. So I'm like really thinking about that.

Speaker 2: 23:02

I said, but sometimes my characters like right now my one of my characters has done something. I'm like I don't know why, I don't know why you've done that, but it's a good thing that you've done, because now it kind of fleshes out the story.

Speaker 1: 23:15

How does it come out when your writer does that? I'm really intrigued because I know how it happens for me. But what happens? Are you tapping away and then you suddenly tap a sentence that's like oh yeah, I think it normally happens with dialogue, because I'm very much.

Speaker 2: 23:28

I know I'm good with dialogue, so I'm very. I think when I'm working through scenes and I'm working through character interactions, it's being done through dialogues when they're having that conversation, or even it's like an internal monologue. That's when the changes, the unexpected changes, happen. Like I had no there's like, and one of my characters, they had no reason to be leaving London. Now, all of a sudden they're on the m6. I don't know why you've gone up there, but now I know why you went up there are you like?

Speaker 1: 23:57

oh no, you cannot go there because this is not in the plot, because how are you going to get them back?

Speaker 2: 24:06

they're going to get back, but those moments are fun. I think those are fun. I think you can surprise yourself as a writer. I think those are fun moments. That's what.

Speaker 1: 24:15

That's what makes the process joyful that's my favorite process, that's my favorite bit. And it happened to me in Vengeance and I was writing this scene with Jihan and she did something and it was dialogue. It's exactly what you said, which is why I wanted to know. And she behaved in a certain way and I closed the laptop. When I'd done it, I was like, well, aren't you just a nasty piece of work, jia Fan? And I was just like I do not like you. How am I going to write more of you? But I like that. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? But I thought my brain went to this thing where I'd been saying, when the first one came out if you don't like Jihan, we can't be friends just randomly in interviews, and then I thought, oh no, but I don't like her. So what does that say? I do like her, but in that particular moment I was just like you. Oh, how she came alive.

Speaker 2: 25:11

That's what I think. I think when they do those moments that make you, it's like when you have a friend and if you use that old example of them, like they're going out with someone who they shouldn't go out with, and then they break up, and then you're like, oh good, you've seen sense. And then you get a text message two weeks later yeah, we're back together. You're like like what the hell is wrong with you? And it's like you have that reaction of your own not your, at least. I stopped saying that. I said clients with your own characters. We have that reaction with your own characters where, like with Henry, like what is wrong with you? Why don't you do it like I can't stand you, you've just been ridiculous. Now, yeah, because it makes them feel real.

Speaker 1: 25:47

They're not flat, they're not one dimensional no, they do become real and I think they become better, don't?

Speaker 1: 25:57

they yeah, did you always want to write? I always wanted to write. Since I was a child. I desperately wanted to be a writer. I just didn't know how to do it. I didn't know any writers. Um, so I became a journalist accidentally again didn't know any journalists, uh, but kind of by that time I think I was I was 27 by the time I became a journalist and, um, I called, I called up my local paper and just pestered the features editor and got a job. And because I was then in that world, I was in local papers. But because I was meeting writers and I was meeting screenwriters, I was learning how to get into the industry.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Still, what had happened to me is I think I'd written something and somebody had critiqued it as a kid at school and there was two things that happened. One was somebody had critiqued it and told me I was fantastic and he'd given me an A plus, and I think I was about 13 at the time and he just came in and he said this is just such a brilliant piece of work and it was mine, so that made me think I can do this. Then, when I went to do my GCSEs, the English teacher just kept giving me Bs and I was like someone who wanted to get get A's. And then I just thought I'm not, I'm not good enough for this and writing is something that other people do and I don't know how to do it and I didn't have enough money. Thing is, I didn't have enough money to go on courses. Um, yeah, like it's fantastic. Um, so, yeah, I did.

Speaker 1: 27:29

And then when I, when I got pregnant and I was 36 no, I'm 39, I was 39 I thought, all right, if I'm, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it now. So I always wrote things, I always wrote features, but I'd never written a novel and that was I'd written. Actually, I'd written one novel and somebody else had read it and people had just been really disparaging of it and they shouldn't have been, because when I found it recently and I read it and I thought actually it wasn't bad, uh, that's one of the ways that people sometimes destroy your confidence when you listen to them. So, yeah, I always wanted to write, always wanted to tell stories, but never saw myself in any of the books. Did you? Did you ever find any characters?

Speaker 2: 28:09

who were like you. No, I didn't see anyone like me and even when I was younger, I remember there was a, there was this I must have been maybe about nine or ten maybe and there was a book by this black American author called the Friends and her name I think her name was Rosa Guy, and I remember picking up the book because it had this and it was the first time I saw, you know, people on the cover who looked like me. It was two black girls holding hands and they had their hair in Kenrose and I thought, oh my God, you know, I'm a little black girl, nine years old got my hair in Kenrose and I picked up the book and I read it.

Speaker 2: 28:47

But then I remember, even at nine years old, reading it, thinking, yeah, they look like me, but this isn't about me. These are two black girls in America and their story is completely different to mine. You know their whole upbringing, so there's only you could only relate to it so far. And then you know you get that was the only book I saw at nine and ten. And then you know, once you start progressing to your, um, your teenage years, you're not seeing anything, there's no books that look like you. So you just end up reading the street valley highs, which I love, but you end up reading the street valley highs and the sweet dream book and then you just move. For me, I just end up moving into black horror books and things. But it took a long time. I don't think I saw, read, read a book where the character you know maybe looked like me, felt like me, their families felt like my family, until I was probably in my 20s, probably in my mid-20s.

Speaker 2: 29:43

And that might have been. It might have been Dorothy Coombson's book.

Speaker 2: 29:48

It might have been the Cupid Effect and whatever came across after that. And then I found, literally I found by accident, dray, to say, mitchell's first, first novel. I remember I found that in um WH Smith and when I turned it I remember turning over the back and seeing her little picture and I'm like, oh my god, it's a black woman who blocks. Then I read her little profile. And when my family comes from Grenada, you know it's one of the who blocks. Then I read her little profile and when my family comes from Grenada, you know it's one of the small Caribbean islands, you don't hear about it that much. And it said you know she's from London, I think she's from East London and her family's from Grenada. I was like, oh my god, this is me. So you know, to pinpoint your, your life in terms of like once at nine and then in another when you're in your 20s and maybe going in your 30s, that's a bit ridiculous. So it's probably understandable why you can think that there's no room for you.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Yeah, I never read a crime novel with someone like me in it never, no. And when I was a kid, when I was looking, when I was a teenager, and I was looking for people like there was nothing about if you were South Asian, there was someone, rushdie, who would write kind of you know, obviously high-end literature. Yeah, well, I wanted to read a Stephen King book or something else that was easily accessible to me. Um, I didn't want to read that kind of. I did read those things, but you know, the books I read, I didn't want to read that kind of.

Speaker 1: 31:13

I did read those things, but the books I read every day, I just wanted to read, and the only thing that I ended up reading was I'd go to this bookshop called Shared Earth and there was a world literature section and it was just full of Maya Angelou and Malcolm X. And the reason I connected with Malcolm X is because it was the first time I read a guy who was Muslim, who happened to have English as his first language, and that was the connection and the fact that he was, you know, he was black. I wasn't black, I was Asian, so, but some of the stuff kind of, but I never, ever read a character who, um, was Asian, british Asian, british Pakistani. Um, just a person, you know. It wasn't a thing about literary discourse around mangoes and that kind of thing. Just a girl, mangoes. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 32:09

like exactly what you mean. But one hand, I'm like I really like mangoes. On the other hand, I'm like I know exactly, you know what I mean. Like exactly what you mean, but one hand, I'm like I really like mangoes.

Speaker 1: 32:12

On the other hand, I'm like I know exactly you know those kind of books which are wonderful, fantastic and we need them. You know describing the texture of a mango and all of that kind of stuff and that's a big part of our cultures, right? But sometimes I just want to read Stephen King about some supernatural. I really want to read a supernatural story with a horror book. One of those I really desperately want to read now is a horror or supernatural type thing with a British, pakistani woman at the centre of it, like all those stories that you grow up with about witches and witchcraft and magic and all that kind of stuff that's specific to those kind of stories that you grow up with about witches and witchcraft and magic and all that kind of stuff that's specific to your kind of heritage, that stuff yeah, it's my brother, not.

Speaker 2: 33:00

You know, my brothers and my cousins would always say like not everything needs to be a message, like you just want to.

Speaker 1: 33:06

You just want the escapism, I want the escapism, I want the escapism, I want the escapism, and I want beautiful people and I want, like, complex characters.

Speaker 2: 33:21

And I want you know just people to get killed. Yeah, because when you think about it, you don't want people to get killed. You think about it when I was being asked about black British, um, female crime writers and characters, so black led characters no.

Speaker 2: 33:39

I remember sitting there for ages thinking and I don't, I said, if I made a mistake and I've missed people out, then like, forgive me, but I was like I don't remember. I don't remember ever picking up a book by a black British author male or female whatever where the character you know, like the detective, is a person of colour. I don't think I've ever read and I'm talking about British books because even when I I mean, like James Patterson with his Alex Cross series, I used to read those when they first came. And then when I realised and I thought, oh, he's writing about a black character, he must be a black author. And then I realised and I thought I was writing about a black character, it must be a black author. And then I realised no, it wasn't at all. And you kind of feel a bit cheated.

Speaker 1: 34:17

Yeah, you totally feel cheated because there's nuances isn't there to characters that you only get if you live it totally.

Speaker 2: 34:27

That is true, that is absolutely true. So I was going to ask you what surprised you most about the industry. Now you're in it Second book's coming out. What still continues to surprise you?

Speaker 1: 34:42

So what continues to surprise me is I don't still. I still don't understand how they make decisions around money. I still don't understand how they make decisions around money Like how you can write a bestseller and still be people, still be worried about offering you a book deal, Like I thought once I was in it would be easier and I haven't found that. So I'm still with it's, I kind of think. So I've hit all the notes that I was supposed to hit and I just thought it would get easier. I just don't think it has got easier, and I found the same with Journals Match Me, that it doesn't matter how good you are at it or yeah, that's what I found surprising. What have you found surprising?

Speaker 2: 35:28

I think the same I said in another podcast interview that it feels like stakes and ladders.

Speaker 1: 35:34

It feels like you've gone up, you're like oh, I've got there.

Speaker 2: 35:35

It's in the next square along, it's not even another ladder, it's just like you're down the snake. Yes, that's exactly back at the beginning. Yeah, and I think. Yeah, that's what I find, that's what I find surprising and I think it's the um I was gonna say. We have this saying in our family, like my granddad used to say um Bobby, two mouth. So like you're speaking two mouths on your face, you're saying two different things. I feel like publishing can be a bit like that they'll say one thing and then there's something they're saying something else completely different. You know well, that doesn't make sense, because those tactics, those rules, those things you're saying, they wouldn't apply in any other part of the world, in any other profession. No, they don't apply. I find that frustrating.

Speaker 1: 36:23

The other thing I found interesting is that there's two bits to it, isn't there? There's the book that comes out and then there's the marketing. No one gives you any training, no one teaches you how to go on stage and answer questions. No one tells you, no one handholds you through an interview. You and I are experienced public speakers you because of the law, me because of journalism but if you've got a mouth on you, you can go and really wreck your career, can't you? Because you're so publicly exposed. If you don't know what you're saying and if you're not controlling the narrative, you're putting out there on social media and then at festivals and things um, and no one teaches you that no, because, and the thing is, it is a skill, because even when so when.

Speaker 2: 37:13

I'm teaching, you know, and I'm teaching the baby lawyers. I teach them advocacy and I teach them communication skills, and it's all skills. There's all techniques and methods that you need to learn and obviously the more you practice, the more you do. You get better. Then you learn to adapt. So if you have that training, even if it's like two, three days training, then you're thrown into the world. At least you've got a basic foundation to start with. But for a lot of people they don't. They're just like oh off you go, we've got an opportunity for you, and then you feel like you have to take all the opportunities, but you still need to be prepared for them.

Speaker 1: 37:46

Yeah, there's no one to handhold you. I mean, there's the publicist who's fantastic to handhold you. There's a. I mean, you know, there's the publicist who's fantastic. Um, and I love my publicist and she's. She's there, but her job is to set it up and to be there and to navigate. But no one gave me any training. No one said and I only thought about it later when I met people who hadn't had any experience of being on stage or answering any questions or doing a public reading um, how nerve-wracking it must be for people yeah, I don't even like public readings.

Speaker 2: 38:18

I can read. I've done. I've lost count the amount of closing speeches I've done. All of a sudden you're like have I pronounced that word correctly?

Speaker 1: 38:26

I'm not even sure now it's hard, it's all it's interesting, isn't it? It's an interesting um industry to be in and you feel like you can't complain because there's so many other people who want to do it and you're there now. And then people are like, oh, your diamond shoes are too tight. And you're like no, actually I'm trying to make it better so that when you come up and you get the chance, you come to a better state of play.

Speaker 2: 38:54

Yeah, you think it is better, you think it's getting better.

Speaker 1: 38:59

I think it's getting better, and I'll tell you why I think it's getting better. First time I went to Harrogate, I was on stage and the guy who was doing the interviews was there was a lot of, there was a lot of racism that was said. And what happened is I came off stage and the three or two other writers who were with me who were fantastic, they just surrounded me and I was just processing it. You know, when you encounter racism and you process it, right, you go in, you call, have black and your brown friends and you're like this happened to me.

Speaker 1: 39:33

Am I like thinking about this correctly? And they're usually like, yeah, this is racism, you're right. Um, so it takes a bit of time to process. And now and I got on a train at like half five and I'd got to harrigan, I've been on stage at 10, so I was tired and I was like thinking about it, um, and these two writers just surrounded me and one of them said, you know, if he said that to you one more time, I was going to deck you.

Speaker 1: 39:55

They were white writers, um, and the other woman was like that's completely out of order and I in that moment thought this is the first time that my white colleagues in any line of work are spoken up for me before I've had to actually process it and say it. They've seen it, they've named it. And then what happened is the next day, um, I saw him again, the guy who said to me this if he'd done this, I was going to deck him. And he said I've been talking about what happened to you. I was really emotional. He said I've been talking about it and he said, um, and I've told the organizers. And then the organizers came to me and said that man's never gonna be asked back to facilitate again.

Speaker 1: 40:38

And that was the first time in my entire life that, without me saying a word, because I hadn't had time to say anything to anyone or even call anyone um, my white colleagues had stepped up, and I really think that's how we get change. You know, we we've been saying things for a long time, but people stop listening. But it's when, um, everybody else speaks that that happens. And then, obviously, now we've got Vasim lovely Vasim Khan at the CWA. So hopefully it's changing. It's just not as fast as I'd like. How about you? Do you think it's changing?

Speaker 2: 41:12

I think, yeah, I do think it's changing, because I remember my very first Harrogate would have been 20, not actually no, but it wasn't even. It wasn't even a Harrogate festival. I'd gone to another festival in 2018 and I remember when I was the first, it was my first ever, let alone crime festival. It's like my first book festival, because I just it's weird.

Speaker 2: 41:33

You know you're a lot of readers, you know you're aware of books, but you're not really aware of this much wider community that surrounds the books so in terms of all the festivals and events that take place, and because I was doing the course, the creative writing masters, um and our group decided we'll all go to the festival, and I remember picking up the program. This is in 2018 and for some reason, I know I think it's because I'm looking at the crowd and I'm like I think it was actually like four. I don't know what would you call us, um, festival goers, audience members, whatever we are, it was like four of us, maybe. I think there's like two black women, me. I remember seeing an Asian woman and a Chinese guy and that was it in terms of people who attended the festival.

Speaker 2: 42:17

Yeah, and then on the actual program, I meant and I counted because now you're aware of it, because you're always very aware, and I remember I counted all the panelists on there and there was like 125 call it 130 and only about four of them were of color and I think only one of them was a woman. And I'm thinking this is just, this is ridiculous, like it's so, it's so ridiculous. And then fast forward to now. You know when I go, when I go to Harrogate. So last moment was last year. Well, you know, I'm on the panel, there's more of us on panels and there's more in that actually attending the festival. So but it's like, it's like as anything, like we always say if you can't see it, then you're not gonna know.

Speaker 1: 42:59

But you're not, you're not.

Speaker 2: 43:02

You're not. Also, these things are open to you they're not.

Speaker 1: 43:06

That's exactly how it feels and, um, one of the things I love is I think I was at an event where there was Stella was there Stella Oni and I think were you there and Basim Khan were you there at that one and he kind of like came over and he took us under his wing and he was like I'm taking you off ice cream, I don't remember, yes, he's the, he's the you know, people of color, contingent and he just took us and that I think, um, that was lovely, that moment of, because audiences are so of a certain age and a certain demographic, and it's intimidating as well.

Speaker 1: 43:44

I remember going to chant them and walking in and, um, just for a split second, thinking, whoa, I don't belong here, me too. Yeah, isn't it funny, isn't it funny that our brains, we're educated women and we have careers and we've written these books, split second of like and having to. One of the things I find hard is that split second, because those split seconds add up, don't they? And when you add them all up and you think our counterparts don't have that time wasted, they're just in there, they're just there's no, there's no pause, because I had the pause.

Speaker 2: 44:29

I remember I got to the Cheltenham entrance and, um, I paused. I was like, oh, oh, hmm, maybe, like are they sure? And then you just have to tell yourself, like you don't need that, this shouldn't even be, that pause should even be taking place. Just just walk in, just walk in and do whatever you need to do.

Speaker 1: 44:51

One of the things. Sorry, I feel like this is a bit of a moan. I don't want to be moaning. I do feel like the energy that's eaten up. When you're a Black or Asian writer and you're going in, there's a lot. You know, white writers don't lose that energy, do they? They just go straight in and they're just writing. No one says, oh. So let me just talk to you about so. Is your writer? Is she oppressed? Is all like you know? Is she a black woman? Is her? Where's her man? You know, where's the baby? Like that kind of horrible baby daddy, those kind of phrases that you hear and you're like, no, look, I'll be lying, you're getting on. Look, I'll be like in my book. Really, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it it's all I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 45:37

Listen, I could tell you about Henley. She's tired, she's got PTSD, her husband's been an arse like he doesn't know what she's got to have for dinner, just gonna order pizza again. You know that's not good for her daughter, but you know she's knackered. What do you want to? And she's got to go work in the morning.

Speaker 1: 45:54

Yeah, she's just a woman. She's a woman who happens to be in a brown body and that brown body comes with some stuff, but at the core of it she's a woman. She's trying to solve a crime and navigate life. She's crying and she's not eating properly, she needs to take her supplements and she's not she's hungry, she's hungry right now I'm hungry and I'm going to barge off this stage because don't ask me about, you know, marriage or whatever.

Speaker 2: 46:24

Just like get away, oh my god you can't believe someone's actually put those questions on a bit of paper and be like, yes, this is what they all don't know. I'm like, no, let me tell you about the head in a box. That's much more interesting people?

Speaker 1: 46:43

always one of the questions I really used to hate. I used to get all the time from certain questioners and questioners um, what they call people on the stage was like Moderators Moderators, that's the word Should know words. What our words was, how have your community, your people? You know your people. I was like who are my people? And it's like these people on the stage are my people because they're all writers. So this is what we are, right, and I don't know what my community is. What do you think they're going to come do to me?

Speaker 1: 47:17

And I remember saying something like you know, there's criminals in every society and there's prostitutes in every society. Because one of the questions was like so you write, you've written this character and she's a prostitute. She said, how are your parents when they're like, well, I'm a grown woman, grown ass woman, my parents are grown up, if they, you know, you think they don't know that I'm aware that prostitutes exist. And, like you think there aren't any prostitutes. Like what the hell? Sometimes I just want to think what do you think we're all doing? Just going to mosque and eating curry all the time? What is going on? It's just nuts, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 47:55

sometimes you just want your fish and chips and just to sit in front of them. I like mastership, I just want to sit and eat my fish and chips.

Speaker 1: 48:02

Sometimes I buy scones from m&s and you know, then decide oh, they do cream like I. You know I might eat pasta I like the pasta.

Speaker 2: 48:12

I like the M&S scones. That's already got the jam and the cream on it.

Speaker 1: 48:16

I've not tried those ones. Do they come ready?

Speaker 2: 48:19

prepped. They're ready, prepped. It's just there, two in a box, you don't need two who knew newsflash integrating? So many things before I ask you because there is a point to you being here about your new book, but before I ask you that, that um vengeance question I like to ask is what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career?

Speaker 1: 48:56

I wish I had been less scared of taking risks. Take risks, I think that's a good one. Take risks, yeah, because what's going to happen is going to happen, but take the risk. You never know what someone's going to say at the other side of the so yeah, that's a good one.

Speaker 2: 49:16

So let's talk about vengeance. How excited are you that it's finally?

Speaker 1: 49:21

out here. Oh, I'm so excited. I still, I'm still like shocked that I actually managed to write another book. I remember watching you you know your Instagram stuff talking about how you're writing another book. It's like how does she do it? I don't know how to do it. I think I just I think someone else wrote that one. It was magic, it just appeared. I'm really excited. I'm really excited for people to read it and see, find out what they think, whether they still like, whether they still want to go along on this journey with me, also because it's slightly different to the first one. So I'm quite excited to see how it's received you have that second book.

Speaker 2: 50:02

I think everyone does. Actually, I don't even know why I'm asking the question, that second book syndrome, like how the hell do I do this again?

Speaker 1: 50:10

I had oh yeah, but I have that every time. How the hell do I? How do I? How do I do this? Again like, how the hell did I write? And um, yeah, definitely. And also, um, I didn't know what my process was. You know people talk about process. I didn't. I didn't really know what my process was until I'd finished the second one, and now I know who I am as a writer and as of someone who writes um, what happens to me, what happens to my brain, how I put stories together. I'm just accepting the fact that I do have a bit of an ADHD brain. I should probably get myself obsessed with it, because I can't plot. I know Amit Dand has these fantastic Excel spreadsheets.

Speaker 2: 50:57

I can't do spreadsheets no.

Speaker 1: 51:01

So acceptance of who I am. So yeah, I did definitely have second book syndrome of like, oh my god, how the hell, how the hell, am I gonna do this thing?

Speaker 2: 51:10

I think that's such an important thing is that, which is, which is no one tells you about, you have to kind of, yeah, well, you have to learn who you are as a writer. Once you've learned who you are as a writer and what your process is, and then, well, it's never. It's never easy writing a book, but it's a little bit. It's a much smoother process. Like I know, I'm not, even though I'm a planner, I'm not a spreadsheet person like my brain case. It collapses on itself. I see a spreadsheet. It's like there's too much, there's too much going on. Just give me a bit of paper and let me do my plan.

Speaker 1: 51:44

But I said I understand my process and once, yeah, once, you want to have that understanding, it's a lot it's also, you know, one of the things that I think people don't talk about is the great privilege of having a publisher who's already said I bought your book and I'm with you, and an agent who's good, publisher, who's already said I bought your book and I'm with you, and an agent who's good, who's like, stood there, who you can email and say I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and they say, okay, let's jump, jump on a zoom call and let's talk it through. Um, yeah, and it's such a privilege to know that someone believes in you, because when you first write a book, you're writing cold, aren't you? You sort of, yeah, no one believes in you except you. And by this second one, someone's like, it's in someone's interest. And by the third one, you've proven it twice and people do believe in you and they're stood there with you.

Speaker 1: 52:31

Um, they've been on the journey with you and they, they're there, don't just you know you, no one talks enough about that. No, I, you know, one of the things I've really learned, um, over the last 49 years is that, uh, people have support systems and networks, and I used to think I've got to do it all on my own. I've got to be shit hot at the top and I've got to do it alone. I didn't realize that people have support systems, they have spouses, spouses, they have parents, they have, um you know, editors and marketing people and agents and they have just people to go to and I didn't know that yeah, but you need.

Speaker 2: 53:15

you need it I said because, like I said earlier, a lot of the time it's just you in front of your screen, on your own in a room, and you need those support systems. So, whether it is that person you call, at 11 o'clock at night, you can just rant at about. This makes no sense. But they understand why you're ranting and either they agree with you or they say to you no, you need to pull yourself together, nadine. I have not got time for this today, but you need to know there's someone there you can do that with yeah, like I've to my agent.

Speaker 1: 53:46

I've just emailed in a patchwork of shit. Um, you know, I just hope it's all right and she's like it won't be, and then I can say, okay, it won't be, and then I can just close my laptop and leave. Otherwise I'll just sit here hitting refresh like a million times waiting for um, yeah, the support systems are so important and I wish people could, yeah, know that yeah, no, as far as when it comes to choosing your agent as well.

Speaker 2: 54:13

I know it's really hard to get an agent and people you know they go. You can go through so many rejections and stuff, but you you don't just take the first person who says yes to you. You need to make sure they're the right person, the right fit. They're not only just it's not even just about understanding your book and, yes, we can sell your book, but they understand you as a person. I think that's important.

Speaker 1: 54:32

Definitely, definitely. You need somebody who's kind enough, who can just um deliver feedback really kindly, but who can also do like, be really good at negotiating and going really hard and get you what you need, what you want, understands the industry and has your um welfare and your career long-term career in mind. So, yeah, I didn't know that. I was just like god, anybody, just take me take me now. Anyone would too, and you're like no no, no, no, no, because really it's like this is a relationship like a proper relationship.

Speaker 1: 55:09

Yeah, it's almost like a marriage you need to make the right choice, absolutely like a marriage. I might say it's more important than a marriage. You know you've got your career in the hands they do, they do all right.

Speaker 2: 55:21

So I've got my last four questions for you. So are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Speaker 1: 55:26

I'm an introvert. I'm a massive introvert. I get massively tired after festivals. I put on. You'll see me with a cap on and like dark glasses leaving. Yeah, I've seen you. You've seen me with my polo cap on, haven't you like hiding at the station? I'm going home, I've literally been there.

Speaker 2: 55:53

I'm like is that, is she coming?

Speaker 1: 56:02

I'm a massive introvert and, um, yeah, I don't know how that works out. I think somebody just said to me I want this fantastic writers retreat. And someone said to me you know, yeah, I thought you were like deeply, deeply intelligent, but and I was really boring you and I said, no, I'm not, I'm really tired and I'm just an introvert. I need to go to my room. It's not because you bored me and and that look, isn't that I'm clever, it's just that I'm tired. I need to sleep.

Speaker 2: 56:32

This is my bed okay, so what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 56:42

oh like. So I'm on my third, third marriage, and that was it like. Getting married young a couple of times, getting divorced a couple of times, um yeah, do you not know this about me, nadine?

Speaker 2: 56:54

this is like the thing everybody knows about me. You don not seeing my face. I'm like what do you?

Speaker 1: 56:59

mean third, yeah, yeah. So when I was, I wrote about it for the Guardian and it went viral. It's part of the reason I ended up with the publishing deal. Um, not that anyone offered me a publishing deal on the back of an article that was the most read piece in the Guardian on the twin in 2019. No, that didn't work, um, but basically, when I was 21, I was married for three months and then, when I was, I got married again at 23 and I left after two and a half years. So by the time I was 25, I'd been divorced twice and culturally, I was a pariah, um, and I I was such a scared, frightened little thing before then and after that, I had nothing to lose and that was the thing that shaped me. I'll send you the answer, nadine, after this is done. You can read it yeah, because I'm looking.

Speaker 2: 57:47

I was like very tired, well, so now I'm going to ask you if you could go back to when you're 25 years old. I'm like I don't need money to ask you that, but I will anyway. If you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 58:00

don't be scared, it's going to be all right. Now I would say just take the risk, do it. No one, no one cares, just keep, just do what you want to do. Life is short. Take the risk and, um, don't be scared. Everybody, the thing is everybody's scared. Same thing I say to my children we are all scared all the time. Some of us are just masking it. It's like the question about introvert, extrovert. People might watch your this video and think Simon's, just this massive extrovert. And I'm not. Um, we never know what anyone is really like or what they're going through. So just you know, take the risk, do it.

Speaker 2: 58:36

I expect I can't always be like you know what's the worst. Like, yeah, maybe to my detriment, but I'm like what's the worst that can happen? Like they say no, it doesn't work out, and you, just, you just keep it moving. I'd rather try and it doesn't work out as opposed to sit and keep wondering oh my god, what if?

Speaker 1: 58:53

yeah, I. One of the reasons I wrote the book and the reason I am a writer is because I saw my mum paralysed by fear. She was a great, she was, she was, she's a good writer, but she couldn't get over her fear and my thing was I'd rather on my deathbed regret having tried and failed than not have tried at all. So you know I know it's trite and I know it's been said a million times, but just do it, I think it's true keep going, chipping away at it, because the one who gets there in the end is just the one who keeps going.

Speaker 1: 59:27

It's not necessarily the best person or the smartest person, it's just the one who just refuses to give up.

Speaker 2: 59:33

So it's perseverance, and sometimes I like I always say this to the students sometimes I'm like you have to tell yourself a story. Whatever story you need to tell yourself, just to get you through that next step, get you through that door, you have to tell yourself that story. It's a bit of like a mindset.

Speaker 1: 59:49

You kind of have to brainwash yourself a little bit just to get through you do have to brainwash yourself, you have to keep it's the bit thing that we were saying about writing a book or writing a second book. You're just going to hold your nerve, just hold your nerve, just keep going. Um, and I guess we're lucky because we have families who love us and support us and we have these support systems yeah, finally, simon, where can listeners of the conversation podcast find you online?

Speaker 1: 1:00:16

uh, you can find me on instagram. I'm simonmere underscore author. Or you can find me on twitter at simonmere um. Or you can find me on my website, which I think is simonmerecom. I haven't looked at it in a while, but you can contact me through that and I will reply.

Speaker 2: 1:00:33

Thank you so much for having me on my book's out in june that's all people need to know your books out, but I just wanted to say thank you so much. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation podcast thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

It's been such a pleasure thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the conversation, all you have to do is email the conversation at nadinemaffersoncom. Thank you and I'll see you next week.