Season 2 Highlights: Part 2: The Truth About the Writing Journey

*The Best of Season 2 of The Conversation with Nadine Matheson - Part 2*

This week, we're bringing you the best of my conversations with some of the most talented and celebrated authors in the industry. Join me as I sit down with award-winning and best-selling authors Femi Kayode (ep.41), Harriet Tyce (ep.62), Jo Callaghan (ep.68), Kellye Garrett (ep.71),  Kia Abdullah (ep.36) and S.J. Watson (ep.64) 

What if launching your debut novel during a global pandemic turned out to be a surreal rollercoaster ride? How do repeated rejections shape resilience and career decisions in the long run?  We'll share personal stories that highlight the importance of persistence and the valuable lessons learned when goals are reassessed. Together, we’ll explore how these experiences ultimately pave the way for success, touching on the unexpected boosts from platforms like BBC2's "Between the Covers" and the transformative influence of BookTok in the modern publishing landscape.

We also discuss the pressures authors face in a rapidly evolving industry, the value of community support, the significance of celebrating small wins and how to manage unexpected success that is more than you could imagine.

Don't miss this engaging and insightful episode, showcasing the highlights of Season 2. Tune in and listen to the wisdom and experiences of these remarkable authors.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Writer's Success and Failure
• 12:53 Overcoming Rejection in the Publishing Industry
• 27:37 Navigating Publishing Industry Success Journey
• 33:04 AI Role in Publishing Debate
• 39:05 Navigating Writing Community and Challenges
• 44:39 Support and Success in Writing Community
• 50:53 Truth in Publishing Industry Success
• 1:04:33 Navigating Success as a Debut Author

Transcript

Nadine Matheson: 0:00

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, best-selling author, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week, and you'll remember that season two of the Conversation came to a close about two weeks ago now, and this week we have part two of the best of season two of the Conversation. Part two of the best of season two of the Conversation you will hear from best-selling authors Femi Kayode, harriet Tice, jo Callaghan, kelly Garrett, kia Abdullah and SJ Watson, and I think this week there's a bit of a theme with part two of the best of season two. The theme is that we're talking about success. We're talking about failure and how to manage this writing life. Part two of the best of season two starts with my conversation with critically acclaimed author of Lightseekers and Gaslight, kemi Kiyodi. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. So, kemi, my first question for you how has the past two years as a published author been for you?

Femi Kayode: 1:13

It's been a rollercoaster ride, I think. First of all, I don't live in the UK, you know that right, and my publisher is in the UK and the US. And because of the corona, I wasn't able to really, just really enjoy being a debut author. You know, like Harrogate was my first festival, for instance, you know, um, so it was always this. It always had this out-of-body experience. You know, when they talk about the book and I talk about myself, because it always seemed as if it happened to someone else in another dimension, you know what I mean. And then, of course, I also had to start the second book immediately, because it was part of my PhD study.

Femi Kayode: 1:54

So many things were happening at the same time. So life just never stopped. I felt and this is something that I think that maybe you would have considered, you too being in that situation I felt that I wrote this book and I felt that this book took so much out of me. And now it's finally published. The sun's continued to set, babies continue to be made, you know, life just didn't stop and I felt shock changed to a large extent, and I'm not exaggerating like why couldn't life just stop? Just for about maybe 30 minutes or one hour and everybody just bow and say feminine, you're the man, kind of thing, you know, know. So yeah, you know, I still had to cook at home, you know, I still had to be a father, I still had to go to work, you know, and my bank balance did not change dramatically.

Femi Kayode: 2:54

So, in a sense, when people ask me how have things been for the past two years, my answer is like what was supposed to happen? Because I don't know. Nothing changed, you know, I just continue. But I do have a very strong sense of accomplishment. I think it has done a lot for my self-esteem as a person and as a creative person. Um, I also I feel a lot more confidence to call myself a writer. So now when I get to the airport and they give me this visa form, so they say occupation, I write, writer. You know.

Nadine Matheson: 3:31

I still put lawyer on mine. I still put lawyer on the visa form, on the immigration form when I went to Grenada. I still I know, I think it's just autopilot I still write lawyer on it, really, I think because, yeah, I used to write advertising.

Femi Kayode: 3:46

I used to write marketing. There was a time I used to write businessman things like that. Now I confidently write writer and I found out that when I write writer the immigration officers sort of like double check and they're like what kind of books do you write? And I'd be like crime, like fiction. And they'd say like fiction. And they can see this fear in their eyes. Like then I say fiction and they say yeah, cool. I said what if I said non-fiction?

Nadine Matheson: 4:15

This is what I always think, I think. I think if you say non, they're thinking oh my God, are they coming into the country to write some kind of expose on our government?

Femi Kayode: 4:24

and bring us down.

Femi Kayode: 4:31

That's probably why I don't write. I don't write writer, I put lawyer. I don't know if that's any better, but I like it. I like it. I just feel, at my age, that it took me a long time. You know I'm 52 this year and it took me a long time to find my place in the world. You know and that's not to say that I didn't enjoy all the details I mean, I enjoyed it. You know they paid the bills. You know I had some great achievements along the way, but this one just felt like everything came together and for the first time in my life I can say this is who I am and this is what I want to be. So who I am and who I want to be is one and the same for the first time.

Nadine Matheson: 5:12

Isn't it? Doesn't it feel a bit strange, though, thinking that you had like, if you want to call it, imposter syndrome, where you wasn't sure of yourself when you've had you know? So you've done all these details in the past. Like you've worked in advertising, I've seen you've been to every university on the planet. You're doing your PhD.

Femi Kayode: 5:31

I was a professional student.

Nadine Matheson: 5:34

Exactly. You're a professional student, but doesn't it feel weird, having all those accomplishments and then getting to this stage, when you're doing your writing, that you then don't feel secure in that?

Femi Kayode: 5:48

The writing itself is. I really would like not to stay insecure because I think it keeps you on your edge and all that. So the writing in itself, the act of writing in itself. I don't think you will ever get to that point where you say I'm the best writer in the world, or I'm the best writer writing in my genre, or whatever, or I'm so confident of my work and that's who I am and whatever. I think the very art of creating stories and creating characters is a vulnerable act and for you to do it well, you have to constantly, um, be humble. You literally have to be humble, you literally have to be um, vulnerable, um. So I wouldn't want to lose my insecurity. You know my imposter syndrome, because I think it gives us that edge you know to. So you know, I I think, yeah, to make you, make you the better writer than the last one, I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to prove that I can get critical acclaim and financial success kind of thing. So that that's there.

Femi Kayode: 6:57

But I'm talking about identity, you know. So it's almost like you know. You know it's almost like saying, look. So it's almost like saying, look, you're cisgender, hetero, whatever, whatever, whatever. And then you identify as that person, but that doesn't make you a good lover. You know what I mean. You get what I mean. That doesn't make you, yeah, but I can confidently say this is who I am, am, but that doesn't mean that I'm effective at it. Yeah, but I'm, you get.

Femi Kayode: 7:30

So that's the same way I would look at it, because the fact that somebody says that they banker does not mean that to a certain extent, they don't experience some imposter syndrome. You know that doesn't mean that the best banker in the world. So I don't think that that's necessarily different for us as writers. We are writers by profession, but it doesn't mean that we are not assailed with the insecurities that come with delivering on our job. I reduce it to that level of, maybe mundanity, so that's not to mystify my profession and say, oh uh, I need to be in this space before I can be effectively, you know, effective as a writer.

Femi Kayode: 8:13

No, I just say I am a writer and there are good days and there are bad days. There are days that I feel that I'm not giving my best or that I'm not delivering, and there are days, days when I feel as if, you know, I'm not as good as I would like to be, but I think that this is something that should assail anybody that has a sense of excellence, a sense of personal excellence. You know, whether you're a doctor or a lawyer or whatever, you should have a certain level of standards that you're constantly anxious, that you're not, you know, know, living up to. You know, and there are good days and there are bad days. Yeah, you know, imposter syndrome is there yeah, it's, it's hard.

Nadine Matheson: 8:52

It's a hard thing, I think it's. It's a hard thing sometimes to reconcile in your head when you've had success in other areas for so long and then you come into this new atmosphere, this new sphere, it's just this new thing. Then you're trying to establish yourself in it and I think that can be difficult.

Nadine Matheson: 9:09

It's like, well, how can I be so sure in my other world, so I can be so sure in my legal world and you can be so sure in advertising. Then you come into this new space, this publishing space, and you're doing something new. You're making yourself vulnerable, as you said, but then you still have to deal with this. Why do I not feel sure that I'm standing on solid ground? Why does it feel like I'm on sand?

Femi Kayode: 9:32

one. I got to meet people like you and I'm not playing to the gallery. You know crime writers, I promise you and we've had that this conversation in the past before Crime writers are the coolest people in the world. Like, really, we are literally. It has helped. It has really, really helped me to find myself welcomed into a community that is not trying to cut me down, that is not looking for the fault.

Femi Kayode: 10:06

Everybody really genuinely wants to know what you're. It's funny. People don't even ask you what you're working on. They just ask you what you're working on. Let's just go for a drink. How are you?

Femi Kayode: 10:17

People want to know about your life. They don't necessarily want to even talk about the work. They might want to talk about maybe the politics in the work you know, but it's yes, there's a genuine interest in you as a person. You know if the person engages with you, you know and you can only, you only have access into that space because of the work that you do. So it helped, it's really helped to to know that I'm not I'm not being trusting to the space where people are hostile. That's one. Two it's also the fact that I have actually started enjoying not being so sure of myself so late in life because it's a new feeling. It's a new feeling.

Femi Kayode: 11:04

I had gotten to the point in advertising whereby it's the same old, same old, same issues, same whatever. I can speak with confidence. I don't go to meetings with notebooks, because I can remember everything. I don't make notes at meetings, I can cross my legs and I can command the boardroom and I'm not stealing you. I can because I have earned it, because I've been doing this for the past 20 years. I've earned it In this space of writing and pitching stories to my editor and things like that.

Femi Kayode: 11:34

I've started embracing this uncertainty because it's new and it's not boring. You know, it puts me on my edge. So, and like I said at my age, it makes me feel as if I have new life, you know, and if I say I have new life and I have a new lease of life, then I can't expect that. You know, my baby steps are going to be like as footsure, as something that I've been in for the past 20 years. So I'm embracing it and I'm making peace with the fact that I don't know everything and I don't need to know everything because I'm young in the game.

Femi Kayode: 12:13

Yeah, and it's a good thing. It's a good thing not to know everything. It's a good thing not to be sure of yourself sometimes. It's a good thing not to have to sorry to use the language to push your way through things. A good thing, you know, not to have to sorry to use the language, bullshit your way through things every time you know, but rather to actually say, confidently and surely, according to the facts, according to the reality, I don't know enough next up is the best-selling author of Blood Orange, Harriet Tice, and in this part of our conversation we talk about how everyone should experience rejection.

Harriet Tyce: 12:53

Because I really have had a lot of rejections when I was I mean well, I'm not going to count them, but it runs into at least between 20 to 30, I think, in terms of pupillage application, tenancy application, and I was lucky. Other people had way more than that, and some of these were rejections after interview. Some of these were rejection after second stage interview. You know it was personal. It wasn't just that they had read the first 50 pages and thought, oh, they had read the first 50 pages and thought, oh, but what I did get good at from all of that was dusting myself off and doing another application somewhere else, and I mean the first few times. I remember, you know, in terms of the legal stuff, I remember being in absolute pieces, you know, I don't think, you know I was in my 20s, I wasn't wearing it. Well, you know, it was hard. So when it came to agent rejections and I think I probably had about I can't remember, but I think coming up for about 50, you know, with earlier.

Nadine Matheson: 14:00

Agent rejections.

Harriet Tyce: 14:02

Yeah, because I tried for quite a long time before everything you, you know I was trying for stuff for about seven years before it all came together. Yeah, when it all came together it came together with a bang, but before it came together it didn't. You know, I'd written a whole book before Blood Orange, which I mean that did get. That got got six requests for the full manuscript, which was when I started to think I might be on to something and none of them wanted it. But you know their rejections were quite helpful, you know, because they all were kind enough to give feedback and you know that it didn't feel as if it was a never-darken-our-door again. It was just not this time.

Harriet Tyce: 14:45

But I think that it's very useful, for I mean, as a general rule, I think everyone ought to experience rejection because it it does develop resilience.

Harriet Tyce: 14:56

I mean because otherwise you can go through your life and then you hit rejection. You know if you'll say you're someone who's got a job straight out of university and done it for 25 years and then you're made redundant in your 50,. You know if you'll say, you're someone who's got a job straight out of university and done it for 25 years and then you're made redundant in your 50s. You know that if that's the first time you've ever experienced a setback, I think you're actually a lot more likely to end up in a state than if you have had, you know, repeated knockbacks over the years. Because you know it does. It does make you stronger and it does mean that you get better at sort of of getting on and doing the next thing. And just you know you've got. There's always another book you can write, there's always another idea you can try it's. I think that that being able to move on is a really good thing no, I agree.

Nadine Matheson: 15:42

I think you, you need to learn how to be able to get a reactions that's not get a response that's not the one you're expecting and doesn't put you in a place where you thought you were going to be enough. I always said pivot was my favorite word last year, but then you need to learn how to pivot in those situations. But if you just go through life and it's just all, it's just completely smooth sailing, and then you get to I don't know, 52, 53 and that's your first no, I don't know how you respond to that when your life has just been plain sailing for so long. You know you saw the applications. I can't remember how many applications I made for training contracts in the early days. I'd say it's probably more than 20. And it was. You said it was.

Nadine Matheson: 16:26

You know they're being rejected at the application stage or maybe interview stage. But then when I look back on it I remember thinking, thinking okay, it's because I was applying to the wrong places, this wasn't really what I wanted to do. So the rejection sometimes forces you to reassess things. And then when you look at success with the publishing, with your book, there's not many people out there, I think, in terms of authors who have written a book, the first book it's gone out there. They've got an agent on the first application, they've got a edit, they've got a publisher on the first submission.

Harriet Tyce: 16:59

There's always some, there's always some kind of path, this kind of lit it, with a little bit of rejection prior to that yeah, and I think it's, and I think it's better, because I think if it's too easy then it's going to fall apart later. Nobody gets it all handed on a plate.

Nadine Matheson: 17:18

No, I think you can look, but I think you know we were talking about before we were recording. We were talking about social media and stuff, and then we were talking earlier about back in like the 90s. Even when applying for universities, I had to go to the careers office and pick up all the brochures for every single university and look through those brochures instead of, you know, going online and doing your research. I forgot where I was going with that. Now I forgot where I was going with that whole point about well, I do think.

Harriet Tyce: 17:53

I do think it has got. I mean, the rejection doesn't get easier, but certainly the amount of information available has become. It's made the process more straightforward in terms of you can find out now. You know, when I was not knowing what to do with my inverted commas, um, you know, if it had been sort of 10 years later, I could have googled how to write speech, how to report speak. You know that there are so many resources available. If I had been wanting to find an agent, I could have looked up how to find an agent.

Harriet Tyce: 18:27

I mean, and I know all these things sound self-evident and we take them so much for granted, but yet you know there was an opacity to the process back then, which I think just as well, just as with law. You know, I thought I'll go into law because my father was in law. Um, you know that it did, I think, limit it. It becomes much more widely open with the availability of information that more people can see that this is something that's also possible for them. You know, because, bitch as one might about social media and it's, you know the burden it places on us to have a presence and you know, and all of the toxicity that emerges. It's still, I think, overall, though, a force for good in terms of how you can find out about things and what you can. You know because how you can google how to deal with rejection, and that will tell you, you know, try again, do something better or better. You know, it's, it's, it's definitely an improvement?

Nadine Matheson: 19:28

no right, most definitely, because I think, if this had happened, if I'd been trying to get published, let's say back in university, i'd's say back in university I wouldn't even know where to start. Realistically, in terms of well, who do I speak to and what do I do with this? With my history degree, america's history degree? What am I supposed to do with it? Open doors somewhere?

Harriet Tyce: 19:52

else. I think that's exactly it, yes.

Nadine Matheson: 19:57

So when you did get the success with Blood Orange and it's it's not even just yay, I got a book deal and I'm gonna be I know I'm gonna be WH Smith in Waterstones and that's good enough for me. But when it goes stratospheric and you're internationally best-selling all over and selling millions of copies, how are you able to? It wasn't that many.

Harriet Tyce: 20:19

Nadine, I think let's just be. It has done extremely well and I'm very lucky. But millions is definitely an overstatement and internationally best-selling I wish. But Portugal, I was a bestseller in Portugal.

Nadine Matheson: 20:34

It makes you international. One country makes you international. Take it, take it, I'll take it all. Were you able to like manage that in a pragmatic way Because of all life? Oh no.

Harriet Tyce: 20:55

I mean no because yes and no, but no, it's been a real process. I think that the I mean for a start, I wrote a book After I got the deal for Blood Orange and it was a two-book deal. I had to write another book and I wrote another book and it was mental. It was really bad. We couldn't work out what the hell to do with it. My agent and me, we sort of looked at it and were like, oh yeah, that's gone wrong. So in the end, we told the publishers, before we'd even given it to them, that it couldn't be published, um, and that I was going to come up with another idea. I didn't know what that idea would be, and so then that meant. So that was all of. I got the deal in 2017 and in an ideal world, I'd have written the second book in 2017 to 2018, but as it was, I got to 2018, um, and had to just throw away everything that I'd done, and so I started 2019, as Blood Orange was published, back at the drawing board to have to write book two in a state of kind of panic about how was I meant to do it. I didn't know what I was going to do and I had come up with a better idea, and that was that did turn into Lies the Lies you Told which was going to do. And I had come up with a better idea, and that was that did turn into Lies the Lies you Told which was my second book. But it was a very complicated and kind of confidence destroying situation. So, on the one hand, I had this amazing stuff happening with Blood Orange, but on the other and that was 2019, remember was before it went, you know hand, I had this amazing stuff happening with Blood Orange, but on the other and that was 2019, remember was before it went, you know that I had this. You know, I mean that they, they Headline, had made it, I think, their super lead, so it got.

Harriet Tyce: 22:43

They had done a huge amount of, you know, pr and marketing and I went to, you know, I sort of I did a tour of events and I went to America and did a tour which was in no way as glamorous as it sounds but was still, you know, an extraordinary experience, and I was trying to write this book that I just couldn't and there was the my then American publishers were putting a load of pressure on about it. Was that? Well, when we'd been on the book before and it had been called the rose garden, and then they said, well, no, you've got to call it the body in the rose garden. And I'd said, well, there isn't one, there is no body in that, that's not the book. And they were like, nope, we're calling it that. So in the end I ended up with this pile up of five bodies in the in said rose garden, just you know, like some kind of weird massacre. Um, it was, it was awful, it was awful.

Harriet Tyce: 23:35

So I was sort of you know, publicly, obviously it was all quite successful, but you know it hadn't hit the stratosphere. But I think I was actually in a complete state. I mean, I remember going to events and just being in this state of complete panic. The one sensible decision I made was to cut out alcohol from the, I think from a month after publication. I didn't drink because I thought, right, I'm not going to drink until I've written the first draft of book two, like you know, the new book two, book three, book two, and if I think, if I had actually been drinking that year as well, I probably would have had a full-on breakdown, you know.

Harriet Tyce: 24:18

And there was also my best friend had cancer and there was quite a lot going on with that, so it was very, very difficult. Yeah, it was very, very difficult. It's a juxtaposition of success and I mean it's a good problem to have how to manage success, but it is also complicated. And then it all went mental. In 2020, you know, as lockdown hit and there was this sort of you you know cataclysmic event happening globally, the book also went through the roof and I I think it was because everyone was at home bored, but and it was 99p in april, which was perfect timing perfect timing the lockdown world to to want to have something to do. Um, I'd got lies sort of written by then, but I'd say that it's taken. I mean, it's five years since Blood Orange was published. I've been in therapy now for two years. I've completely given up drinking and I'd say it's only now that I'm starting to feel like I can remotely handle the situation.

Nadine Matheson: 25:35

Jo Callaghan is the Sunday Times best-selling author and award-winning author of In the Blink of an Eye and Leave no Trace, and in our conversation we talk about being grateful for past failures when you finally reach number one and her thoughts on AI. But you wrote a book featuring this AI detective and then, at the moment, the whole world is obsessed with AI, did you? Because at some point, you're like I couldn't have written this better myself in terms of the timing.

Jo Callaghan: 26:05

Well, again, that's where the look comes in, because when I wrote it in 2019, it was much more speculative. My day job, part of my job, is to sort of plan for the future workforce. So, trying to after they have 10-15 years in the future, my head is thinking what would future demographics be like? Future genomics, it? So, because I was thinking about that, that that's part of what gave me the idea about what if you could have an AI detective because the debate is in the workplace to what extent you must have this in law, to what extent would it augment or supplement or substitute for humans and all that sort of. It was very alive in my head. So that's what gave me the idea, which was, at the time, I thought, a bit of a stretch. But then and then it was fairly, because my book came out january 23 and chat gpt just took off a few weeks before christmas.

Nadine Matheson: 26:58

So instead it went from being quite sci-fi like very mind I mean, it's not a sci-fi, but some people could have saw that as very speculative whereas then it became very, very current yeah, current, relevant, and everyone's talking about it, like you can't turn the TV on and there'll be someone talking about it on the news or talking about it in terms of movie making and then music, and then even for lawyers, there's been people making applications to court and referring to case law.

Kelleye Garrett: 27:26

And when they checked the case laws yeah, it's been generated by AI.

Jo Callaghan: 27:30

It doesn't exist. Yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 27:33

So it's such a crazy. It's just a crazy concept. So how did you feel when you were getting the response that you got to it when you made it into the Sunday Times bestsellers list? I know that's incredible.

Jo Callaghan: 27:44

I know, I said yeah, I don't think I've really sort of processed it yet. So what? What amazed me? First I thought it would be a Marmite book because I thought pairing a human detective with an ai detective I thought some people would find that really interesting. Some people would just find that too unusual, and but obviously the reviews have been overwhelmingly positive. I've had so few negative reviews. It's unreal and people really warmed to the characters, so that was a bit that really surprised me, that, um, the characters seem to really connect with people. And then, um, yeah, the big shock I think was when I was selected to be on, between the covers, the bbc2 program.

Jo Callaghan: 28:24

So my book came out in january then I got a call in the hairdressers from my publicist who again in true publishing sales, said you can't tell anybody, but I think that gave it a whole profile it never would have had. Then I just kept getting picked for conferences Val McDermott's new blog panel, you know. I was just very, very lucky. And then the big one was being watered down in the book of the month. Three of the month I didn't quite get. I mean, I knew that was a big thing to get, but more the writer friends are saying oh you'll, you'll be a bestseller.

Jo Callaghan: 29:00

Now it's like how do you know that as an answer. But when you see the power of waterstones get behind the in there they are and the booksellers are hand selling, but you're in the, you're in the window of every single Waterstone shop in the country. There's 300 of them. So that's just incredible. And then still there's no guarantee you'll get in the Sunday Times bestseller list because of TikTok and all these other things. There's so many variables now, aren't there? I think probably 10, 15 years ago you probably could have almost had a plan for how you if you probably wanted you to, they could have a pretty clear plan to get you there. But what I understand now there's so many more variables.

Nadine Matheson: 29:40

Yeah, but I think book talkers completely, as I say, skewered anyone's plan because it's something that you can't predict. And I don't think book talk is something that publishers can't really get a handle on, because it's not.

Jo Callaghan: 29:52

They don't control it it's great because all the other things there's a bookshop, supermarket sort of, but that's gatekeeper control, isn't it? But, um, you know, book talk is the readers telling other readers, yeah, what they're like. That's fantastic. You know, it might be annoying for me but yeah, that's different to effectively.

Nadine Matheson: 30:15

You know when they kept, when they'll always. You know they'll always refer to word of mouth.

Jo Callaghan: 30:18

When I've got book, talk is it's word of mouth, it's just in a different medium yeah, that's girl but notice, I did get to yeah, and when it did chart, that was fantastic. So gosh, I never thought that would happen, so yeah, I was so pleased for you.

Nadine Matheson: 30:36

Are you glad it happened? You're welcome. Are you glad it happened now, like this success with this book, or do you wish it had happened? Oh no, I think I'm better now.

Jo Callaghan: 30:45

Actually, I'm glad that I had all that failure before, because I've got other friends who their first book was in the bestseller list, because I've got other friends who their first book was in the bestseller list and then they found it quite hard later to find out.

Kia Abdullah: 30:55

That doesn't always happen.

Jo Callaghan: 30:57

You know you don't always have your book in the shop window on the table. I think it's such a weird industry and it's so opaque. I imagine myself thinking, oh, that's how it works. You just write a good book and people like it. And now I know how incredibly rare that is. And there's a strange alignment of stars and look, because most people you know they they write good books. There are so many brilliant books out, you know that don't go anywhere and it's tragic. You know they're much better writers than me, writing much better books, and they haven't had the profile I've had. Um, so yeah, I think I'm glad actually that this came in the back of a lot of failing rejection, because it does make me appreciate it and not get carried away by it, because you're only as good as your last show in this business, aren't you?

Nadine Matheson: 31:41

it makes yeah, I think it. I mean, it depends on your personality as well, but I think I have a very pragmatic approach to life anyway, and I'm glad I am that way, because I'm an optimist but I'm very much a realist as well yeah, pragmatic. So when it comes to this, this industry, and how I fit in and how it operates, I'm very oh yeah, I'm I'm doing more rose-colored glasses about it. I don't think I could. I don't think I would be able to manage if I was, because then when something hits me, it doesn't hit in the right way. It's like how do you respond to that?

Jo Callaghan: 32:18

I know it's also really hurtful, so yeah, I mean obviously I'd be glad. I'd be glad, I hope, to get loads more failure.

Nadine Matheson: 32:39

I think you should. People, I get it. Thank you, I think I think Oprah's um. I'm quoting Oprah Winfrey. She said she was doing an interview and she said I said to Jesus I don't need any more lessons today. I've learned enough.

Jo Callaghan: 32:59

Whatever she's gone through, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 33:03

I've had enough lessons. Can I ask you like a technical question Do you think because you know we always talk about AI in publishing and ai written books and people using ai and I'm like don't, don't use ai, because you can tell but do you think it's misunderstood in a way?

Nadine Matheson: 33:19

I am sorry in how it can be used within the publishing industry, and not just a thing that's just that will let you just like, copy and paste and then reinterpret yeah, because there's no one shared definition of what ai even is, so we don't have a shared taxonomy of it.

Jo Callaghan: 33:38

There's no ai um, all the experts, they don't agree on how to define it. So I think it is widely misunderstood and there are different understandings of it and people take and there's a lot of fear and even sorry, even I'll say ai experts. So the technical people who are, who understand how it technically works, and the thing is in terms of how we, how we want to use it, how we should use it to form our lives, our work. That is something that we are all experts in. That's not something just because somebody can create something doesn't make them expert in how it should be used. Yeah, that's so. I think that's what we need to people. Everybody has to be part of that debate.

Jo Callaghan: 34:16

Actually, how do we want to live our lives? You know, what is it humans want to do? What? What do we want? What do we want to form the board of work and leisure and therefore, what is ai capable of and what, therefore, do you want it to help us with or augment or actually substitute for? So that's.

Jo Callaghan: 34:33

I would want to revert the debate. At the moment, it's been driven by what is technologically possible and what is profitable, as opposed to you know, as Keynes he said, you know how do you perfect the art of a good life, what is a good life to us, and then use that, because the example I was giving, you know I don't want to take out the bins. There are plenty of life admin rubbish that I can be helpless with. Why are we saying, giving it all the creative interest and things, the writing, story, the writing but those are things that give us joy as human beings. Yeah, we're pushing that forward for ai and it's because it's technically possible to extent and it's profitable because the biggest cost of most businesses is labor. It's because it's technically possible to extent and it's profitable because the biggest cost of most businesses is labor, it's the workforce. So that's what's driving and that's why a lot of people are over up to see in my day, in my work life, my professional life.

Jo Callaghan: 35:23

I'm very skeptical about the roles and limits of ai, even though my book is does expand that for fictional purposes. There are very few whole professions that can be taken out by ai. There are lots of tasks, but most professional jobs, whether it be law or medicine, they involve lots of, lots of different um tasks and judgment, and that's what I try and show in my novel in the blink of an eye that you know, dcs cat frank makes decisions according to her gut or instinct, which sometimes can be prejudice, which is why, uh, the ai, uh, seeing how they make decisions using algorithms and evidence can actually be beneficial, but quite often they will get things wrong because they don't understand humans. They can't, you know, they can join up some dots, but they don't know which dots to join up, join up, join up which are relevant. So, again, trying to show that it's not that AI is bad or good, but it's where do humans add value and where, therefore, might AI?

Nadine Matheson: 36:19

help us, similar to what I always say to the lawyers when I'm training them. I'm, like I said, a big part of the job which you won't get from when you're preparing for your exams and when you've done the academics or when you've done your law degree. So the big part of this job is learning how to is one have, learning how to read people. Also learning how to manage people as well, and this is a lot of what we, a lot of what I'm doing is managing people, managing people's expectations in the process, making sure they understand the process, understanding what my role is and understanding what I need from them.

Jo Callaghan: 36:55

And you can't, you can't be taught that no, really, and you've got to understand people's fears, haven't you? Yeah, what motivates them and what's what do they need to hear, when and what? And what aren't they hearing? And what you need to keep repeating, because they're just not listening or they don't really understand it. So it's all that, and so I'll try and show them some of the interviews as well. With aid locks.

Jo Callaghan: 37:17

So there's an example where they think some cat has to visit some parents to tell them that their child might be dead and Locke's like why would you do that? It's a waste of time. You'd be much quicker to ring them. Why would you spend an hour and a half driving there? And it was a really inefficient use of her most finite resource, which is time. Because he doesn't understand that actually you don't tell somebody on the phone that that son might be dead. That's a face and and law. The process of justice about is about someone else having witness to your pain as well and giving people kindness and compassion, even if you can't resolve it. There's a there's that human element of justice which can't just be broken down to a series of tasks now.

Nadine Matheson: 38:00

Before we move on to our next conversation, just a little reminder that you can support the conversation with Nadine Matheson simply by buying me a cup of coffee. If you head down to the show notes and you click on the link, you can buy me a cup of coffee, which will help support the conversation with the Dean Matheson podcast. I honestly couldn't do it without you and I'm grateful to all of my listeners and for all of your support. So if you want to keep us going, buy me a cup of coffee. Now let's get on with the show Next up. I'm in conversation with best-selling and award-winning author, kelly Garrett, whose new novel Missing White Woman is out now, and in our conversation we talk about what does success mean to her and the importance of community as a writer. I've been asking that. So what does success mean to you in terms of being Kelly Garrett, the author?

S.J. Watson : 38:55

I think it changes day to day. You know, I think today, knowing my book comes out in a couple of weeks, it's successes that I wrote the book, cause I said it's not. It's a painful process for me to write. I don't. I realized I'm not a write a book a year person, which I think people think you need to be at least here in the US. I don't know what it's like. I don't know what the pressure is there.

Nadine Matheson: 39:15

I think the same said they. I think they would appreciate and want you to have a book a year to keep make sure you're constantly being seen. But I can accept.

S.J. Watson : 39:26

It's hard to do a book a year yeah, it is, it's, it is and it's um, especially if you have like other things going on, like I have a day job and other stuff was happening with my life, and so it took two years and I hope that my agent and her don't listen to this but I think I'm a book, a two year person, but don't tell them. Don't tell them I'm going to tell them not to listen to this. Don't tell them I'm going to tell them not to listen to this. I think I'm a book, a two-year person.

Nadine Matheson: 39:57

No-transcript but there are a lot of people who authors out there who are. They are and I hope yeah I.

S.J. Watson : 40:06

It's funny because I just but I just always focus on the people like oh look, she has another book out again. Like, okay, you know, and especially when it's like look at my career, I came out in 2017 and there are people who've come out after me, who have more books, right. So like again, but this is all internal, has nothing to do with them, it's just my.

Nadine Matheson: 40:22

You know my insecurities, so I think that's the I can't think of the word for it but you know, because this is just how the industry is, the publishing industry is that you are very, very aware of what's happening in terms of who's being published, when they're being published, what hits the best sellers list, what hasn't hit the best sellers list, what's being marketed to hell, and then it's completely thanked. And you know, when you have communities and circles around you, you're very much aware of what's going on, so you know it can look like oh my god, I need. This person who probably published at the same time as me their debut, has had like six books out. I'm still a book too, I mean it's unavoidable.

S.J. Watson : 41:05

I always tell new authors, um like eyes on your own paper, like just focus on yourself, but like it's like you said, it's just so easy not to it's so easy like today's right.

Nadine Matheson: 41:16

When we're talking, today's Thursday. So in the UK that's publication day, so all the new books that are being released they come out first. I know in the States it's Tuesday. So, whether you like it or not, the minute I woke up this morning I instantly see like happy, publication day. Or you know to do our offer. So you are very, very much aware of it.

S.J. Watson : 41:35

But yeah, you just have to just put your head down, close the door yeah, and the thing is, the only thing you can control is writing the book right, right, like you can't control marketing. You can't control publicity, you can't control how readers will feel about it. You just can write the best book that you can. But again, that's it's easier said than done.

Nadine Matheson: 41:55

It's very easy to say it I'm the best seller. It's like yesterday, I think. Was it yesterday? No, the day day before I think. It took me like three hours just to write 450. I know the number because I kept looking at it was like 456 words. Is that it, nadine? Like seriously, that's all you've done. You can do better. You know it's all very well and good saying I'm gonna write a bestseller, but someday it's just that's the thing, is that that's what I'm trying to be.

S.J. Watson : 42:22

Okay with that. If I don't write that day, I know me that I'm going to be depressed. If I'm like I didn't write it, Then I'm not going to write the next day. Versus like that's 456 words, you did not have the day before. You know what I'm saying. You didn't have the day before. So I try to be like book's going to be done because it's been done four times before so yeah, you can do it, kelly I can't, you can do it too we got this.

Nadine Matheson: 42:52

I know today I had a better morning. I was like this is good, this is what writing feels like, like that's it the sun's shining. It's nice. I feel like I'm having a moment, but who knows what will happen tomorrow?

S.J. Watson : 43:01

yeah, it's true literally every day is a different journey so just have to take each day as it comes.

Nadine Matheson: 43:10

Yeah, so my question, the question for you has been a co-founder of the crime writers of color, which I remember, which is just. I think one of the things for me, being a crime writer and like coming into this now, is that when I was growing up, always reading crime novels, I think the only black crime writer I knew was Walter Mosley. Right, like I think I would. I can't think of any I know I could like. Back then I couldn't think of anyone else and now I can. You know, I can go online, scroll through Amazon and there's a whole there. There's so many, there's so many crime authors of colour.

Nadine Matheson: 43:47

So, my question for you is like how important is community for you and how important is this community to us? Crime writers of colour.

S.J. Watson : 43:57

I mean, I think that, like we've been like all these things, we're talking about how you don't know anything Right, and the only way you know because there's no course is either going through it or talking with other people, getting their feedback on it and things like that. And so I think that's one aspect. That's why community is so important, and I think we have the added thing where we're not just dealing with the everyday things that everybody deals with publishing but we also have to deal with, you know, issues of when you're black or a person of color, a marginalized person, who has to deal with the inherent, like this racism and just things like that that people don't even think about when it comes to just life in general, but also just in publishing. And so I think it just.

S.J. Watson : 44:39

I wanted to create crime writers of color to have a safe space to network and support each other. Me, walter Mosley and then Gigi Pondy started it in, I think, june of 2018. And we started with 30 people and now we have over 400. We have people like you and Walter and, you know, dorothy Kuzma is in it, and we have all these really great people, and the best thing about it is we all help each other.

S.J. Watson : 45:05

Like you know, it could be like a person who's never written before. They might like put a question in the group and then some, like big name author like Dorothy, might respond, you know, or Massim might respond, and it's because we all know that if one of us wins, we all win. Like, your book success is going to be great for me and hopefully my book success will be great for you for your next deal. And you know, and like Sean's, like Sean's book success, there are people who are just so mad and bitter and jealous of him and I'm like, how could I be when, one, he deserves it. Two, he's talented. And three, like he, his book success is great for all authors period, but also especially authors of color, because they're always going to tell us that people aren't going to read. I was, oh, they're not going to read books by about black people, they're not going to read that, and sean's proving that that's not true.

S.J. Watson : 45:55

So now, when you're when your agent goes out to an editor. They can't use that. They can't use it as a reason why they can't. They have to give you less money or they have to not publish your book.

Nadine Matheson: 46:05

They have to give you another lie, you know so it's crazy, you know, when you sit there and you tell people, yeah, um, you know there was. I'll say there was a time, you know publishers will say, you know, black people don't. They don't read books. And you're like, well, that's just crazy, that that makes no sense. And because they don't in their head, they say that we don't read books. Well, there's no need to publish books written by black people yeah, that's silly.

S.J. Watson : 46:34

Like Walter will tell you that, like when he first came out with his first, the first easy book wasn't a mystery, it was like, um, just like a regular story. And he they were. They told him people don't read books about black. People don't read books and people don't white people don't read books, black people in it. He was like, okay. So then he went and wrote another book about easy rollins and it was devil in a blue dress. He made it a mystery and that sucker was huge out the gate because I was. It was like 1990, like I was like 12. I remember this, like you know. It was huge out the gate and again it's like so you can't say that, so you can't say that, and you know, you know you talk about the jealousy.

Nadine Matheson: 47:13

The jealousy thing is just weird.

S.J. Watson : 47:16

It's like it takes up so much energy, like you're gonna watch someone like Sean, or watch you and say to yourself you know, find a way to begrudge their success it's, it's it's weird, it's it's so because, also, like I'm in my 40s now and so my peers were all like hitting, like middle age, and a lot of them are not handling the fact that they're not where they thought. They're not the next Stephen King or they're not the next. You know what I'm saying. Like they, they in their mind they should be at this level and they're not the next Stephen King or they're not the next. You know what I'm saying? Like they, they in their mind they should be at this level and they're not.

S.J. Watson : 47:47

And it's interesting to see how they handle it, you know, and it's never like, it's never like straight, because it's never straight up. Like I hate you. It's like, oh, the, you know the joke, the joke, yeah, passive, the jokey tweets or the like. You know like, slam it. I don't see the big deal with him, you know, and it's like what you're saying is you think that you're more talented than he is, but you're not. You're gonna think it, you're not gonna say it, and so it's just amazing. And again, it's like y'all, like he's not taking your spot.

Nadine Matheson: 48:16

I think this is the thing and it's not, and I wouldn't. Just I'll say it's like all authors, regardless of whatever color um race they are, I think sometimes there can be a tendency to feel that someone's success, the fact that someone's got to number one or they've got a, you know, they've got the film deal for their book, they've got the all the foreign deals there's tendency to think that they've taken my spot, this should be mine, and that's not the case. That is not the case at all at all. It's amazing. It's amazing, yeah, yeah, and all you're doing is just, in a horrible way, you just find an excuse to um make up for your like inadequacies sometimes that's what.

S.J. Watson : 48:58

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's just, it's so. It's really fascinating. And again, because it's a creative field, so it kind of brings different type of person, so logic's not always the case in there.

Nadine Matheson: 49:09

So yeah, how do you deal with it? If you ever see the the joke, I'll say the jokey in quote tweets about you and I mean I don't. I think people are afraid of me.

S.J. Watson : 49:19

Like I'm very, I'm very outspoken, like I'm very outspoken so I think people are afraid of me, Like I'm very. I'm very outspoken, like I'm very outspoken, so I think people are afraid of me. So I think I think most people they talk about me it's probably behind my back, you know, but like I'll see them with with like Sean, and I just like roll my eyes Cause I'm like we all see we all see what, what would really be like, what the subtext in this situation is.

Nadine Matheson: 49:46

So I think it's the hypocrisy that gets me like I don't think I could ever be slagging someone. What we will say in the uk be slagging someone off, talking bad about them you know on where, on whatever platform, and then standing next to them in a bar wanting to do selfies oh, of course, that's what that's.

S.J. Watson : 50:00

The funny thing, too, is then they'll like want a blurb or something you know. Like, like, they'll want a blurb. They'll have, like, when the person, that person was coming up and they need the blurb from you, you ignored them. But now that they're huge, all of a sudden you need a blurb from them. All of a sudden you're best friends. I hate it. They're so fake. I hate it.

Nadine Matheson: 50:16

The first time I ever saw my name and my blurb on the front of a book was when I saw the paperback edition of Kia Abdullah's Next of Kin. I absolutely loved this book. It was one of those books where you gasp out loud when you come to the twist, and it wasn't one of those. Oh, there's a twist and there isn't a twist. There really was a massive twist and I remember being in my garden reading this book and sitting up and, I think, actually messaged Kia when I got to the twist. It's such a good book and she's next up in our conversation.

Nadine Matheson: 50:53

And in our conversation, kia Abdullah and I talk about honesty, perception and success in publishing. But you kind of have to look behind the facade and I think it's important to be honest. You said you have the 90 billboards, I have the success with the jigsaw man. You know your one book. You've had book four came out. I've got book three coming out in February. So yeah, there's this. You have your personal success, um, and then you have the. You know you want. You want the financial success, but I think it's important to show the reality of it.

Kelleye Garrett: 51:28

I think so and I think so much of publishing and we can get into this.

Kelleye Garrett: 51:33

It is so opaque and newcomers don't really understand where they stand in the pecking order, you know, because there is a hierarchy when you get a book deal and often you think I'm going to be in all the waterstones, you know I'm going to get a billboard in my local station and so much of that doesn't happen.

Kelleye Garrett: 51:52

And it's only happened for me with book four and part of me thinks actually I'm kind of glad it happened now because I appreciate it more.

Kelleye Garrett: 52:00

But part of me, I mean, luckily, when I actually came to publishing, a fellow author at our imprint actually had a conversation with me and she was the one who told me about this kind of tier system and said look, based on your deal size, because if you get an advance and you get, say, four figures for your one book, you know four figures say 9,000 and below. That's relatively quite a small deal and we don't talk about this enough, where the size of your advance dictates a lot of the marketing dollars that are spent later on down the line. And so I think in an industry where so much of it is, you know, cloak and daggers and it's reading between the lines. When people like you and I are more honest and say well, actually we don't make a living writing fiction alone, that puts the next generation of writers in better stead to think about a career as an author and what they could be doing alongside it. While they're waiting for that, you know immense financial success that makes them kind of semi-retire and and write one book every 10 years like Donna Tartt that would, that would be nice.

Nadine Matheson: 53:08

No, I know, I agree. I said as I said, I think it's important to be authentic, important to be truthful about the industry. Um, because you know, you're talking about the money thing. And when I, when, like family members or friends, have seen the books in the supermarkets or yeah, they've seen the books in the supermarkets and instantly they think, oh my god, you must be making loads and loads of money I've heard one of my cousins say to me you know, oh, you know, you're the rich one. Now, no, no, I am not the rich one.

Nadine Matheson: 53:42

That is not how it works. Basically, it's all about appearances and you know, going back to what you said about it happening now with book four as opposed to book one, I was thinking about this the other day, thinking, actually, maybe I'm probably be more appreciative of like gradual success as opposed to having it all with book one, like an instant, super massive hit. Then, when you get all the billboards, you get all the true posters. You get this, my little nose, I've got this obsession with like being on the side of a bus. So you get on.

Nadine Matheson: 54:11

You get on the bus, you get your TV adverts. You get all of that you get your massive advance. But you know, having all that with book one and then maybe then book two comes along and book three and you don't get that again I was like how I know I don't think I would appreciate that. I want to be a lot more resentful. Whereas if you got the build-up, whereas you know what's going on, you know how it works, but then you've got that gradual build that you're probably much more appreciative of it.

Kelleye Garrett: 54:38

Yeah, I think you know we're in such a funny game because I often say when you get there, there's no, there there. And I've spoken to the whole spectrum of authors. You know from people who've been given £400,000 for their first novel. Oh, I'd love that. Yeah, then you really would retire, wouldn't you? But you know some people their books have flown and then they've had, you know, second book syndrome or they've come crashing back down to earth with book two. Some people have got these massive deals and their books haven't sold and then that's ruined their careers because then nobody will touch their next book. And so there's a whole gamut. And I've actually had this conversation with my husband before. Where would I rather a £400,000 deal and then never get to write a book again, or incremental success? And it's hard because on one hand you're like well you know.

Kia Abdullah: 55:31

I could just retire.

Kelleye Garrett: 55:32

Yeah, I could do a Gillian Flynn and just retire on that one book. And, you know, maybe the cold, cynical part of me would say, well, actually, yeah, just give me the half a million pounds for one book and then I can go travel. But yeah, I think in this game, you know, when you talk to authors, you see that I don't think anybody is sitting there going I've made it and I'm completely content there's always something else or there's always a bugbear about your success. You know flying the ointment and I think the key is to just celebrate your small wins.

Nadine Matheson: 56:02

you know, and look back as well as forward, and remember when you wanted what you have now, because otherwise it's always look into the future and feeling, feeling dissatisfied now I think I don't think I've spoken to one author, whether on this podcast or just, you know, in just personal conversations, who've expressed 100 satisfaction, like where they are and what they have there's. There's always something, because, whether you like it or not, you always look on the other side of the fence looking at what someone else has, but, as I said, it's all surface. You have no idea what's going on behind the curtains. And then also now spoken to a lot of debut authors who you know they come into it.

Nadine Matheson: 56:45

You know there's so much enthusiasm in the beginning because it's all new and it's what you wanted, because you know you got signed with an agent and then you got your publishing done and you get told your book's going to be out in 18 to 2 months and you're like I've made it and you have all these expectations. And then, as you say, they get there and there's no dare there because, for various reasons, I had it for the debut or for that. I know they got there and on the day of publication they didn't see their books in the bookshops, they didn't make any of the supermarkets, they didn't see it anywhere. It was only if it was ordered online that you know people were able to buy the book family and friends and then the come down. It's such a crash.

Kelleye Garrett: 57:27

It's like experiencing a really big sugar high and then you just have the worst crash good article in the bookseller about this, by the author Mira V Shah, who's written a great book called Her, and there was something really stark in it. She said something like on publication day, she was looking forward more to going to the skip than her book coming out, because the comedown had been so harsh. And I thought, wow, you know that's quite a stark thing to say, but I don't think she's alone. I know another author who was told by her publicist to take a week off around publication and she's in a really high-powered job and so taking a week off was quite a big ask. And then she said around publication, nothing happened. You know. There were no interviews with the Guardian or TV slots, all of these things that you imagine. It was just her at home and it was such a disappointment. And this isn't unique, you know. It's repeated across the industry, and so I think as an industry, we just need to get better at transparency.

Nadine Matheson: 58:32

So it's being said repeatedly industry needs to be more transparent and more realistic, I think, especially with new authors new authors and actually it doesn't actually doesn't really matter whatever stage you're at. You just need to be realistic about what you're going to be getting and also what they can deliver to you is more important, because everyone has expectations. But what are you going to be delivering? And if you're honest about the deliverable product at the end, then you can kind of okay, you can live with whatever comes after, and then you also know what you can. Kind of okay, you can live with whatever comes after, and then you also know what you can do, what you can't do. But if they're not being truthful about that, they're not being transparent about that.

Kelleye Garrett: 59:12

That's what creates the difficulties and the discontent and the moany podcast yeah, I mean, we have this idea that, you know, publishing it's literature, it's art and and you know it's been said a million times well, no, it's a business and I think we would benefit from taking a more honest, yes, but a business-like approach to it. As you say, you know you talk about the product, so what is? What are the deliverables they're giving us? Maybe they can't. There can be three packages, you know.

Kelleye Garrett: 59:39

So you get a bronze, you get a silver and you get a gold, and when you start off and you sign the advance, what's put to you is actually you're going to be a bronze level author, which means you're not going to get much marketing spend. We'll try to get you a couple of um opportunities to write for a magazine and and get your name out that way. We'll do a couple of digital posters for you. You may not get into well, you definitely won't get into the supermarkets. You may get into Waterstones and actually, if you come at it knowing, oh, I'm a bronze level author and this is what's expected of me, and you sign that deal, being quite clear-eyed about what you're getting, I suspect there would be a lot more happy authors.

Kelleye Garrett: 1:00:21

But I think what we're being sold is oh, you're going to get this gold tier treatment when actually you're a bronze tier author and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, some people all they want is to hold their book in their hands and that's enough for them. And I think actually, when you come to it and those expectations are really clear, you don't have the come down then because you're expect you're not expecting to be in the Sainsbury's and the Asda's and the Waterstones, you know you're expecting to be on Amazoncouk and that's okay. So I think, yeah, more honesty and almost this kind of stratified approach to what they're giving you and what you're giving them would help.

Nadine Matheson: 1:00:56

Do you think you know you said you had your original. Your first career was in tech. You know mine's in law. Do you think a second career helped, ben? It was a benefit to you as an author.

Kelleye Garrett: 1:01:06

When you are looking at it as a business, absolutely yeah, because, a you can think pragmatically, um b well, firstly, the kind of financial backing really helped. You know, I think if I had just gone into becoming an author I would have really struggled financially. But I think if I had just gone into becoming an author I would have really struggled financially. But yeah, I think, especially if you come from like STEM the sciences, technology, engineering, medicine you have that more analytical brain, which lawyers do as well, and so you can approach it in a more cool headed way. And again, I think that early conversation that I had with an author really helped because you know she said look, based on your deal size and based on what they promised you, you know you're a bronze tier author and I think pragmatically I was OK with that and I could fit myself into the hierarchy. And so I mean, I think, take it back.

Kelleye Garrett: 1:01:58

My first novel exceeded expectations actually and that did help. But had it done less well, I think I still would have been okay with it because I was coming at it with this kind of cool head. But yeah, I think anyone actually coming from a different career not even necessarily a scientific or an analytical career if you have a bit of life behind you and a bit of experience, you're better positioned to deal with those disappointments. You know, if I was 24 coming at it, I think yeah, I can see why these younger authors would struggle. So yeah, I very much think it's helped, definitely.

Nadine Matheson: 1:02:34

I was thinking that I had the buffer of a pandemic to completely dampen whatever expectations I had. I think, just coming out during lockdown in a pandemic, everything's gone. So you're, you're happy, like you know your book's gonna come out, you know you're not getting any of that, even if the fanfare was promised to you, you know you're not gonna get that. So that just completely yeah, it got it got rid of any expectations, any ego, and it was just like okay, it's out and you have your book. And then, as you said, when later on, when you spill your, when you, you know, when you walk into a shopping, then you see your book on the shelf, or even it was just one copy. It was like that, that was enough, I didn't need anything else.

Kelleye Garrett: 1:03:18

I did that, I created that. Yeah, that, that's an amazing moment.

Nadine Matheson: 1:03:23

Last but not least, we have international bestselling author SJ Watson, whose debut novel Before I Go to Sleep sold more than six million copies worldwide and was turned into a major movie starring Nicole Kidman. And in our conversation we talk about how you can prepare for failure, but not success, and how to manage it. We talk about how you can prepare for failure but not success and how to manage it. How do you cope with yourself mentally and emotionally when you've got this runaway success?

Kia Abdullah: 1:03:55

You can't put a handle on it. It's like you've got no control over it whatsoever. No Well, I wish I could answer that. Um, you could almost.

Kia Abdullah: 1:04:08

You could have almost ended the question with how do you cope with yourself like I don't manage yourself some days I think I'm just a bit much um, no, um, yeah, I mean, I suppose the nature of who I am helped. You know, I, I, I I'm not. I wasn't going to get overly excited, I mean I'm, I'm never been a kind of punch the air, you know, I feel.

Kia Abdullah: 1:04:38

I feel, the pleasure and I feel the satisfaction and I feel all of the joy of success when it happens. But I don't, I don't get't get overly. You know, I'll pop the champagne cork but I won't spray it over the crowd, because that's good champagne, I'm not going to drink that, I'm not going to spray it. You know, I'm that kind of. You know, I'm sure if I was a footballer I wouldn't be one of these that scores a goal and then, like, goes and hugs everyone. I'll be just like, yeah, okay, score that, go now, get away from me. Yeah, score a goal, right, get, get on with the job, got to score another one now. And I think it was that it was kind of that. Really, it was kind of okay, yeah, I've scored the goal, got the, I've got the success, I've got to got to score another goal now. I kind of just got my head down and and it's, it's sort of strange because at the time I thought I was coping with it all very well. Um, but I do look back on that time and sort of think I was slightly uh, I was going to say out of control. I wasn't out of control, that's not what I mean.

Kia Abdullah: 1:05:31

I struggled with the writing. For a long time, I was second-guessing everything I did in terms of putting the words on the page. Let's face it, that's the most important thing with anything that we do is the words on the page. That's what our measure of success is, I think, isn't it? It's the words on the page. That's what our measure of success is, I think, isn't it? So, um, and I was second guessing that because there's a, there's a stephen king quote I really like. He says that you have to write and I'm obviously paraphrasing it, but he says you have to write the first draft with the door closed, um, and the second draft with the door open, by which, you know, my interpretation of that is that he means that you know you've got to write the first chapter, as if no one is going to read it, because that allows you the freedom to explore and to experiment and to, you know, to go off on a tangent and discover the story and whatever.

Kia Abdullah: 1:06:18

And I just found it really difficult to keep the door closed because it, because I would sit at my desk in the morning or whenever, and just I felt like I was on the. On my left hand was my agent, on my right was my editor. Behind me were hundreds for thousands, if not millions, of readers all looking over my shoulder going oh, I wouldn't put that bit there, oh, I don't like the way this is going, you know. So I found myself um, and also, I think you know I, I I've always kind of struggled with writer's block and I've always kind of slightly glibly said you know, plumbers don't have plumber's block. You know you didn't have barrister or solicitor's block, did you? You know, if you had a job to do, you had to stand there and do it. You couldn't say to the judge oh I didn't feel it today, so I haven't come in, sorry.

Nadine Matheson: 1:07:04

There were so many you had to do it. I mean because there was one time I'd I'd collapsed on, I had from a medical issue. I'd collapse at the tube station on the friday and I was doing a robbery trial at the old bailey on the monday and I still dragged and say dragged my ass literally to court on a monday. I gave the judge a note which passed on to the clerk saying that I need to leave early to do an appointment. But yeah.

Kia Abdullah: 1:07:25

I still turn up yeah you show up yeah, and I think what threw me was I kind of so I I do still believe that of it, you know, you do still have to show up, and even as a writer, you know, I know but I think I went a bit too far in that direction. So I kind of I went through a period of thinking I've got to get another book written and I just need to show up and write the thousand words and I sort of I ended up writing myself into a hole really, because I wasn't actually considering what my energy levels were like and whether I was writing the right, the correct thousand words, you know, whether I was taking the story in a good direction. So I think it threw my writing a lot and I cannot remember what your question was now, but I hope I've answered it.

Nadine Matheson: 1:08:14

I can't remember it either, but I do that a lot. I was thinking, though, that you know, when you're talking about the Stephen King quote, you know writing with the door closed, which makes sense to me.

Nadine Matheson: 1:08:26

But then I was thinking it's going to be hard to close the door when you're success, especially when you're writing the first, the second book and everyone has I don't know anyone who hasn't doesn't have that second book syndrome. So it's going to be hard to write your second book when your success is so loud. But even if you close the door, you know, if you decide to go and take a break and turn on the tv and you turn it on sky, your your your movie, I'll say the movie that's based on your book.

Kia Abdullah: 1:08:49

I wasn't madonna but you know what I mean.

Kia Abdullah: 1:08:52

Yeah uh, yeah, and you know, and it was run away from that yeah, it was also stuff outside of the book too like my whole world sort of changed in a way. You know, I moved flat, I got married and well civilly partnered. This is all in the space of the same month. The book came out. Actually I turned 40. Well, no, not the same month, but within a couple of months I turned 40, got civilly partnered, moved house book came out. But then that was just the beginning, because then you know my relationship with my partner. We went from he was the main breadwinner I said not really main breadwinner, but he had the more senior job.

Nadine Matheson: 1:09:43

Yeah.

Kia Abdullah: 1:09:44

And I was kind of just bumbling along testing kit not exaggerating, but you know bumbling along testing kids hearing and dabbling with writing on the side and then suddenly that that script completely flipped and I was the main breadwinner and I was bringing in more money than we thought we would ever have, and he stopped working and and kind of lost his sense of identity and and so you know, all this stuff was going on as well and it didn't make it easier to kind of try and negotiate this. It was very destabilizing. I mean, I try not to complain about it because you know lots of things are destabilizing and if you're going to be destabilized by something, you're better off being destabilized by a big success, you know.

Kia Abdullah: 1:10:23

But, it was still destabilizing.

Nadine Matheson: 1:10:33

You know there's a reason that Faber doesn't do a course called how to survive, a huge success with your first book, but but sometimes I think maybe there is need for one. I think there's me. I said I was talking about this last week, I think, or two weeks ago with katie brent and we were basically saying that you know there needs. There needs to be some kind of therapy with being an author because, because and the thing is success is, everyone's got a different idea of success, so I'm just I'm defining numbers out there.

Nadine Matheson: 1:10:53

I'm not saying these are your numbers, but you know someone's success could be. You know I'm happy to see my book when I've walked into Smith's I'm just saying Smith's I've seen my book on the shelf other bookshops are available. But I see my book on the shelf and you know I got my advance off. Let's say I've got 20,000 pounds.

Nadine Matheson: 1:11:13

Yes, I still have to work, but I'm happy, and that's my idea of success, because I did what I set out to do you know, other people might get the crazy seven figure deals and multiple foreign deals, and then the tv and film rights go and they have that level of success. But you, because it's such a change from your norm or what you've known to be your norm for so many years, you still have to learn how to live with that and what and there's no right way to react to it. And the people around you can't really advise you, and I mean like your friends and family, because they're kind of coming at it with you and they don't know.

Kia Abdullah: 1:11:48

Yeah, no, it's very difficult and there is some talk. I mean, I think it's good and that there is some talk within publishing and within the industry now about how to support debut authors in their mental health. Because, you know, I do think as well, it's an industry that that sort of it can chew. It can chew you up and spit you out if you're not careful. Well, I shall say, if you're not careful, there's nothing you can really do about it in a way. But I suppose what I'm trying to say is you know, it's very easy, the publishing industry, you know, as a debut author and it's probably worse now but you get a book deal and everyone in your publishing house goes oh my god, this is amazing, this is incredible, we love it, we love you, you're brilliant, you're the best thing that's ever happened. You know this is going to be number one across the world. Blah, blah, blah. We can't believe we found you. So we're so excited.

Kia Abdullah: 1:12:37

All of that, you know, and obviously, in nine times out of 10 or 95 times out of 100 cases, that isn't what happens. What happens is your book sort of lands in a, you know, doesn't, doesn't land the way that they thought it would. Or you know, richard Osmond's book is released the same week or whatever, for whatever reason, um, and I think it's not an industry that is good at saying, okay, well, it's not your fault, you know, we'll try again next time. It's more like okay, who are you again? Oh, did we publish your book? Oh, didn't do very well, did it? Okay, whatever, it's more like that, and that's hard, that's hard to go from that extreme. So I think we are, I think, starting to look or talk at least about mental health, the mental health of debut authors.

Kia Abdullah: 1:13:36

But I do think it's not just debuts that have an issue, I think it's all of us, that sort of um, because I think in many ways the two things are sort of um, publishing and writing are kind of mutually, they're not easy bedfellows, because the I think one of the one of the things that's changed and I've seen change to an extent, although I think I came in at the beginning of this change, but I've seen it accelerate is, I think in the olden days, but a while ago, it felt like the publishing industry existed to publish the books that authors wanted to write, whereas now, I think, certainly in genre publishing and in commercial fiction. It definitely does feel like the industry thinks that we exist, the writers exist, to write the books they want to publish. And I think you know celebrities writing books doesn't, or pretending they've written books in some cases doesn't help. Um it just, it just feels like an industry that's kind of eating itself in a way. It's kind of it's, it's, I don't know. I've gone into, I've gone down a very depressing tangent.

Nadine Matheson: 1:14:42

I always say we go down a tangent. But you know, but you know what you're saying. It's not just the debut authors, it's, it's all authors. Yeah, you said especially. You know you could be on book number four, five or six, and you're just, you know, sometimes it could be a case of you're hoping that this book will be the one and you're still kind of probably holding on to the promises that were given to you when you weren't even published yet. But you're sitting in that, sitting in the publisher's office, and they were telling you selling you the pipe dream and you're still holding on for that.

Nadine Matheson: 1:15:13

So it's so many, so different levels of pressure. With your debut, two years in, you've been doing it for 50, yeah, yeah absolutely, yeah, um what would? You? What piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career?

Kia Abdullah: 1:15:31

um, well, I should, I probably. It's kind of ties in with what we're talking about, really, and and, and it probably doesn't say a lot. I mean, I, I think it's advice. I should have no one told me this, because I think I should have worked out for myself. But I didn't. But I wish somebody had sat me down and said well, after the success of Before I Go to Sleep, had sat me down and said you're a brand. Now we don't want something weird and experimental. We definitely don't want that. We don't even want something that's that sort of still a crime book, but a little bit different from Before I Go to Sleep. We want something that you're a brand, you're a very specific brand, and that's what we want again and again and again. But no one ever really told, no one told me that, and probably because they thought I just realised, you know. So I do wish I'd kind of been told that, because at least then I could have made the decision if that's what I wanted.

Nadine Matheson: 1:16:31

Thank you so much for joining me for part two of the best of season two of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson. And don't forget that the full conversations are available for you to listen to whenever you want. I'll be back next week with season three of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson. Make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode, and you definitely don't want to miss the start of season three. And also, don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Ko-fi by buying me a cup of coffee, and also on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link. And if you'd like to be a guest in season three of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson, all you have to do is email theconversation at nadinematthesoncom. Thank you, have a great week and I'll see you next week.