Wine and...Comics: IMMORTAL SERGEANT by Joe Kelly and Ken Nimura

Joe Kelly is best known for his charater-defining run on DEADPOOL - the movies are heavily based on the comics that bear his name, and no other writer has truly strayed rom Kelly's rendition. He also made a spash with the creator-owned Image Comics series I KILL GIANTS with artist Ken Nimura, which was later made into the feature film of the same name starring Madison Wolfe, Imogen Poots, Zoe Saldana, and directed by Anders Walter, Academy Award winner for best live action short film in 2013 (HELIUM).

The duo then came back with IMMORTAL SERGEANT. This is, according to Kelly, a story that took him many years to write. At its core is a personal tale of Kelly's relationship with his own father, who was a lifelong police officer. Accordingly, the comic follows the retirement of Sergeant Jim Sargent, who desperately needs to close one last cold case before he shuffles off into the sunset. But he's going to have to accomplish this while his estranged extended family gathers for both his retirement celebration and his son's birthday.

DAVE'S WINE PAIRING

2020 Quintas de Melgaço Super Reserva Sparkling Alvarinho, Vinho Verde DOC

If you're in North America, the best place to nab this is from Diniz Cellars, an importer of Portuguese wine who can sell direct to the public!

DALLAS' "WINE" PAIRING

Samuel Smith's Old Bull Brewery, Tadcaster Oatmeal Stout

Chapters

• 1:28 This Podcast is Getting a New Name!
• 4:15 Immortal Sergeant Intro
• 6:35 Dave's First Impression of the Comic
• 16:04 Hints About our Wine Pairings
• 20:09 Dallas' First Impression of the Comic
• 23:22 The Myth of the Hero Cop
• 37:25 Feature Film Fan Casting
• 44:55 Dallas' "Wine" Pairing
• 51:26 Dave's Wine Pairing
• 59:07 Wrap-Up!

Transcript

0:03

He's Dave and I'm Dallas and we have opinions on just about everything. Sometimes they're on point and sometimes they go down better with a glass of wine. Join us. This is the Wine and Podcast. Welcome to another episode of Wine and the show where we pair wine with entertainment, delude ourselves into thinking you want to hear what we have to say about different pieces of pop culture and art, but know for a fact that you need to hear what we have to say about wine, because man, who knows anything about wine? We sure don't. Well, that's not true. We totally do and can help you find the best pairing for whatever it is you're planning to read, watch or listen to. But before we drop our man pearls of wisdom on you, make sure to smash that subscribe or I find it. Dallas never reads these things before I start talking, blathering on. Man Pearls of Wisdom, phrase of the day. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Anyways, make sure to smash that subscribe or follow button. It's how any podcast grows and reaches new listeners. Also leave a rating and or review. Those help our egos grow and reach new victims. So leave a nice review. Thank you very much. Or send us an email, wine the letter N. If you have something mean to say or you're like, guys could be a lot better and here's some advice, send that email. Let us get better. Then leave that nasty review if we don't. Now, I also wanted to mention that we, just said this is another episode of Wine and, but this is your forewarning that this podcast is about to undergo a name change and a rebranding very soon. So expect that. Hopefully within the next couple of episodes before we get too deep into season two, Wine and is still going to be the parent umbrella that this podcast is a part of. But we noticed a couple of things. One, Wine and really doesn't say enough about the podcast and what we do here pairing wine with entertainment. And also it's very search engine unfriendly. This is something we had to learn the hard way. But the ellipses, Wine and dot, dot. Every search engine under the sun, whether you're searching for it on Spotify, you're searching for it on Google, Apple iTunes, it hates the ellipses, or it just doesn't know what to do with it. It just sort of discards it as far as I can tell. And then it's just searching for wine and which is such a generic phrase without enough distinction to it. So we are retitling this podcast. It will have a new name within the next couple of episodes. Look for that very soon. We have a new logo and whatnot. underway. I don't want to announce it quite yet because things may change before we actually roll it out. But that is coming very soon. And hey, don't just follow the podcast, follow us on Substack as well. You know, if you're already on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter, you're all you're already using vastly more evil corporate platforms to spread more misinformation than independent writers on Substack for all its founders massive flaws and Substack founders have massive flaws. You know, moving over to Substack is a step in the right direction at the very least. I follow a ton of independent writers that are, you know, speaking truth to power, getting the word out there that are really keeping me sane during these years that we're about to encounter. So find us on Substack. It's a great place. We have independent wine writing, independent political writing, independent entertainment writing. It is a great place to find these writers and voices and interact with them. So find us winan.substack.com. That is not changing. It will still be Winan'd as our home base of operations. And there, you can get to know us better. Hang out winan.substack.com. You'll find weekly articles on additional wine and entertainment pairings, collabs with other independent writers of both wine and entertainment. And that's the place where you can also support us by becoming a paid subscriber of the Substack. Unlock paid only benefits like uncut interviews and. pairing directories that track all the wine and whatever pairings we've done throughout the years. You can also rifle through the podcast episodes. They are clicking on only one category or another. So for instance, you can just listen to the wine and movie episodes or the wine and comic episodes like we're about to hit today. You can do so there wine and that's substack.com. We hope to see you there folks. today. So today we're here to talk about the image comic book series, Immortal Sergeant by the writer who defined the character Deadpool for both the comics and screen. He had the character defining run Joe Kelly and artist Ken Nomura. Now Joe Kelly has just mentioned he is best known for his character defining run on Deadpool. It is one of my personal. favorite comics of all time. Like if you don't have the trade paperbacks of Joe Kelly's Deadpool, they've collected it in an omnibus once or twice, but it keeps going out of print. So I think it's very expensive to try and get the single volume omnibus of his whole run. It was like 30 plus issues. So it's a big fat ass book. If you try and get the whole thing in one go, but get the smaller trade. So still exist. Get the Joe Kelly run on Deadpool. It is so good. He's the one that made Deadpool a fourth wall breaking character, really added the humor. Even Kelly is a little critical of the movies and that they took some of the humanity and the darker elements of Wade Wilson's character away. Like he's on record as saying that the comic, in the comic, he tried to give this character more like, more troubling aspects to his character that were meant to be. thought provoking in that way. Like, let's talk about that. Like, what this character does is not normal, is not sane, is not healthy. And the movies mostly just went for the comedy that he had injected into the character and the satire without really delving too deep into the serious subject matter, which, it's a movie. What are you going to do? But his run is much better than the movies. Like, I think a lot of the criticisms of the movies get that are fair criticisms, even though I do quite dig the movies. the comics, his run of them really get in there. So I've been a fan of his ever since. Now, after his Deadpool run, he and artist Ken Nomura did another image comic series called I Kill Giants, which was adapted into a feature film starring Madison Wolfe, Imogen Poots, and Zoe Saldana and directed by Anders Walter. Academy Award winner for best live action short film of 2013, Helium. And then he went on to do this 2017 movie, I Kill Giants. Now I feel I have never read I Kill Giants, nor have I seen the movie. And I think that's why when Immortal Sergeant was coming out about two years ago in single issue format, I felt guilty. I love Joe Kelly. And I kind of didn't follow him into his creator owned work. I had kind of like poked at, seen it, been like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's on my never ending watch list on Netflix now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that comic series is one I will get to someday, and I never did. So when Immortal Sergeant came out, and I'm always like, Joe Kelly this, Joe Kelly that, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna support this one. I knew nothing about it. I went in completely blind. I knew it was the same creative team of I Kill Giants, but I also noticed that Ken Nomura really tweaked his style. for this, like it looks nothing like what he did in I Kill Giants. And that was intriguing, but I still didn't know what it was about. And it looks very manga-esque. It's black and white, and it was nine issues long. And the thing I love about a nine issue long series is you know that's exactly how long it needs to be, because that is a weird number. That is not something where they're like, we're giving you four issues, we're giving you six issues. Those are normal. 12 is even normal. Nine is just this odd as nuts number where it's like, who does nine issues? You do nine issues because that's exactly what it takes. Like you've written it out, you've done the script, you've broken it down. The artist has helped you break it down into what they think they're going to draw best. And then you take it to Image Comics and you're like, this is what we're doing. Right. And these comics came out so on time and on schedule, like plainly, it was done before they had started to release it. So. When this was out in, I pre-ordered all the issues. I supported the comic like right away. And then I sat on it for a year not reading it. I had the whole series and once again did not read it until recently. And when I finally read it, it was surprising in a number of ways that we're going to talk about here because this was not what I expected from these guys, kind of at all. And I was impressed in certain ways. I... I like the series a lot. It grew on me. It took a moment. I will say that. But yeah, my history with the series is just loving the creators or at least Joe Kelly, not having done I Kill Giants, then being like, fine, fuck it, I'm gonna do this one. And then finally reading it. And I had a lot to say after reading it. we're gonna talk about. you have a lot to say. No. Dallas Dallas what had you ever heard are you familiar with either of these creators were you familiar with I killed giant I I was actually I think you and I discussed this a while ago and one of our like evening wine benders just passively because you mentioned immortal sergeant and I had never heard of that one And I was familiar with I kill Giants because of the fantastical kind of you know, that's what I say, that's my thing, but Generally if they're sort of a fantastical world I'm probably going to be drawn to that first and so I call Giants was definitely on my radar and I think I... I gotta I gotta copy you and I were together and I don't remember if I got a copy of I don't remember if got a cut. There's something we got a title kind of a title related to I kill Giants It may have been that comic book free comic book day. I went to a couple of the The stores to get some things back anyway So I wasn't very familiar at all with immortal sergeant. I mean, I love these two guys, of course the Deadpool series I'm not a huge Deadpool guy, but I appreciate everything that he did and it's beautiful only that Joe Kelly run like after that I of peaced out and I've poked back in now and again and I'm like it's basic it's like they're they're riffing off what Joe Kelly laid down but I feel like he no one has come up with a take on the character that's particularly different or interesting and I think he did it best yeah It's true, it's true. think what he did, again, like I said, I'm not at you, and there's not another thing you and I discussed when we first started down this was that idea of going to comic book stores and seeing 9,000 different issues of Deadpool timelines of Deadpool and a lot of the other Batman. Was the new Wolverine, right? Exactly. It's like he was guest starring in everything. It was him and someone else in team up books. Exactly. Which is why it's so funny that Deadpool and Wolverine became a movie because they are the two Marvel characters where it's like you proliferate everywhere because you just sell. And like we're making way more than anyone gives a shit about, but you still sell. And it's a little, it's a little much, but anyway. It's a little much. So, you know, you know my taste a bit and I sort of checked out but you know, Kelly stuff's great. The art in in Ikel Giants is so vastly different from the art in Immortal Sergeant. Yes. It's It's almost like they're two different vocabularies. guess technically they are two different vocabularies because Immortal Sergeant is more sort of manga-ish. But even just the fact that this artist was able to, and this is something he developed just for this series. He was just like, this is what I think the series needs to be. And Joe Kelly was like, OK. And because he's like, I trust you at this point. So like, yeah, whatever you think is going to be, we're going to run with that. And when you go back, you can see that it could be like when you really squint, you're like, yeah, this could be the same artist. If someone didn't tell you it was the same artist. you would never think it in a million years. And even once they tell you, your first reaction is bullshit. Yeah, you gotta go looking for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this was your first time reading it, I'm assuming. It was. It was. You definitely have a buddy cop. It's a father son road trip, right? Now, so, you know, I think that's a good thing. let's let's the story, the comic is basically it's called Immortal Sergeant. It follows a kind of hero cop entering the retirement phase. Jim Sergeant, Jim Sergeant spelled slightly. His last name is spelled slightly like more Sargent kind of a thing. But it's like it's pronounced Sergeant Jim Sergeant. And that's kind of a running joke of the whole thing as they go. And he's approaching his retirement years. And yet he has one cold case that he's never closed, that he is hell bent on closing before he finally closes this chapter of his life. And his son, his adult son, now married with children and the son's birthday is coming up, winds up getting strung along on this road trip to close this cold case with his dad. And they are estranged from each other. They do not get along. They are not the same kind of people. This comic, the first thing I will say is when I first, I read the first issue, maybe like I had false starts on reading the whole series. I kept sitting down with the first issue, reading it and it didn't grip me that much. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. Not much happens in the first issue. And so you're like, okay, interesting. It kind of takes, it's a, you know, this is a nine issue limited series. The story. doesn't really kick off until the third issue. It's like the first three issues are all just introducing each character. Here's who they are. Here's what's going on. And then the road trip again, which when the road trip begins, I was captivated. I loved the series after that, but it took me a moment to kind of get involved. So I would like read the first issue, get distracted, not continue. And then like a month later, I'd be like, yeah, I want to read this series. Read the first issue. get distracted, so on and so forth. And finally, I was like, no, need to, I really want to read this. Where does the, the fuck does it go after the first issue? And I was actually surprised because it changed so much after the first issue, after that first chapter, because then you get, the sun doesn't even appear until issue two and they don't even really meet up and start doing their thing together until issue three. And that's where it really kind of kicks off. And this is a story according to Joe Kelly like this was a very personal story that took him many years to write because this is his dad was a cop and He had this was him working out his estranged relationship with his I Believe I don't know how long how long deceased but his dad wasn't around anymore But he was like he had an estranged relationship with his very cop hero cop dad or very very cop minded dad that when growing up, he did not really connect with him, didn't really understand his dad or his job. And then of course, his son grew up to be a writer and a creator, which I don't think his dad understood even a little bit. So this was him working out that relationship in fiction form, kind of in real time. So we're to talk about that in a moment. But on that note, let's actually quickly give those hints of what we're drinking with this comic. And I wanted to mention that bit because my wine is a very traditional old world style done in a very new place with a grape you would not expect, in a place you would not expect from a very new producer. So it's kind of like the young, I wanted to find a wine where it was like the young picking up the old traditions and carrying it into something new that would be Because the way this comic works, it's like, it is a journey of them understanding, coming to understand each other. So it's not just the division between the old generation and the new. It's about them finding that common ground to some degree. So I wanted that. And I think in broad strokes, we like to always say, like, we're going to recommend a specific wine. But I think, guys, for this comic, go into your wine shop. Here's a fun question to the lob at your wine shop person. Just be like, I want, do you have a wine that is from like a winery or a vineyard, something that's been established for a long time that has been picked up by the new generation and taken somewhere new? Like they have changed things and they've done, now it's a different type of thing, but still from the same vineyard, still from the same, you know, they're not just like, they didn't just overhaul the whole thing, but they overhauled it up to a point. And it's like the new generation is coming and they've made something different out of it because there are a lot of wineries these days where that or vineyards where that is 100 % true. The new generation is now organic, biodynamic. Maybe they're trying natural wine methods. Maybe they're trying minimal intervention. Maybe that, you know, skirts the line of straight up natural. Maybe they are at the very least, you know, they they've changed. the style of the wine that like at one point it was big, and robust and now they're making fresher, younger, lighter versions, lower in alcohol, things like that. Like what has that young generation come in and done in that old place? That's the kind of wine in broad strokes I think you should pair with this comic because that's going to be thematically on point. Dallas, give us some hints on yours. I like that. I went a bit more direct and this is a... When I say it's non-traditional, there's probably two people in the world who consider it one. And it is a stretch. Yourself? Yeah, exactly. For the purposes of this podcast. It's us. We're the TV. Because of the sort of... from the father-son dynamic I wanted to I Wanted again we go back to how you know that sort of a premise of how I make my pairings and it's either The thing I want to drink as a character in the world whereas I'm very passive just leaning leaning against the wall watching the action I'm never lifting a finger to help anyone or the thing I enjoy is I'm lying on the couch to read the IP and for me I went with the thing I could imagine the father drinking I imagine his drink I am okay okay I imagine this is his evening wine so to speak so it is very tasty I'm not a guy who's into this particular presentation of alcohol this genre or class of alcohol not my thing generally but this if I had to pick one is my thing as well so i imagine myself being the dad is trying to you know exist with his son and this is the thing he is drinking and that gives you absolutely no information but if you But it's gonna be interesting when we get to the reveal. So hold on tight. We're gonna talk about the comic then we're gonna circle back to these wines. So on that note, I've already given you kind of my first impressions on the comic in terms of like it took me a couple issues to really get into it, but then I wound up loving it. But what was your first impression going into this? I know you pretty much went in blind in terms of reading this. I just sent you, I was like, I wanna talk about this one. And you're like, okay. What's amazing is when you sent it, because you sent it last week, I was fully expecting, you know, like, the 30 pages, like two issues of something. Yeah, 300, 200 something page, but it's very manga-esque, so it's breezy and read it's not dense. But it's a lot of page count. It's a lot of page count. When I opened it I was like, this son of a bitch. Yeah, you said to trust me. I'm like, it's a quick read. Trust me. That's right. Does not take long. But the page count is a bit intimidating because I think the comics are all like doubles every single nine. Yeah, I think maybe every single of the nine issues is like 40 pages or something or. Yeah, so it's like it actually adds up like when you look at the page count, you're like a little bit of a heart attack. And you're like, I want you to have read this and be ready by next week. And Dallas was like. you. When you started reading it, I'm assuming, you Google it? Did you look it up before? No, no, I don't like any leads anything I go into blind I because I don't trust anyone else's opinion of anything more than I trust my own particularly when it comes to like, know art and Like I'll consider it after the fact but the primary sort of experience is mine But I will say it's it's so curious because First of all, the cover art on all of these just knocks my socks off. All the actual covers just knock my socks off. That style is just so irreverent, but it's weight to it. It's dynamic, but it's also sparse. It's not overly saturated in terms of the imagery on the actual print. But agreed, the first... three or so issues, not a slog by any stretch of the imagination, but definitely You're a little bit like, what is this comic about? What is it doing? Where are we going with this? Because you're just going and you're like, OK, yes, this sort of has been hero cop and very like he the immortal sergeant is very Clint Eastwood, dirty, hairy ish type of a thing or like that kind of cop that Gene Hackman would play back in the day where he's like, he's tough, not in a in a know, 80s action hero way, right? Not ripped. He's got a slight build. He doesn't look tough at all, but then he is tough as nails. can eat anything. He can drink anything. He's very... One of the things that I appreciated about the comic and in the take on, especially once I realized that this was Joe Kelly working his own feelings about his dad out, is that it is a look at the myth of the hero cop, yes. But at the same time, it does acknowledge certain things about the hero cop. Like there are these moments where the Jim Sargent is kind of, you know, his son is like, Dad, what the fuck are you doing? Stop being offensive. Stop saying these things. And then you'll whip something out where it's like he just observed something by entering this room and being super cavalier. And what he observed, you're sort of like, shit, that was actually very observant and very perceptive. And he's not be, and he's being a bit of a dick about it, but then when push comes to shove, he actually can be a little bit sensitive about it too, and not be a total dick to the person he's talking to. So he gives the hero cop like, there are pluses to this mentality. There are pluses to what this person has been trained to do. That's not to say they get off scot-free and that ultimately at the end of the day, This comic does not really come down on the side of like, is a good thing. But they acknowledge certain things that are either you could call it impressive or just, you I think things that even Joe Kelly was like, yeah, I don't, I could never be that person. I never had this skill. And it's interesting that probably his dad did whip this skill out now and again. It makes sense because I myself occasionally do get a bit sort of self reflective in some of my writing and after the fact, because if it's something I planned out, you know, fully, and there's about 20 % of stuff I don't plan out and just allow myself to kind of feel my way through that stuff ends up being really about my position in relation to some archetype in my life and a comparison. So That definitely comes through in this and good on him on Joe for for, you know, owning up to that and just following it through and creating a great work as a result of it. This is a testament to any of those writers who are told, you know, to not write about themselves. Fuck that. Write about yourself. Right. Right. And he has because the son is like he creates video games, but it is a and I'm pretty sure Joe Kelly is written for video games. Almost no question under the sun. Now, this is a son who designs video games and like the little app phone games. So like the dad just does not get it. Although near the end of the series, there's a moment where he's in a hospital and like the nurses are all like, yeah, we play that game. It's great game. It really gets us through the day. And like the data to some degree, he's still confused with the other day at the On the other side, the dad slowly but surely is like, this gets people through their day. Like if it's a hard day, if they're just like they're doing work we need them to do that is hard work. like when they get a break, they want to play this game. And like he starts to grudgingly accept that this has a place in society. Like this is a positive that his son is doing, even though he still doesn't entirely get it in the sun equally. compared to his dad, there are, his dad can do things and be ready for things and encounter things. The son is just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's like the son's like, no, don't, no conflict, like conflict avoidant 100%. and the dad, course is, I mean, you know, again, they're, they're extremes. So it's like, there's a better happy medium where you're not conflict avoidant, but you're also not conflict. creating. You're not just like pulling a china shop going in and making conflict happen. Every you know wherever you go and so it really explores the these extremes but I think and I one of the things that's great about the series it is long enough and goes on long enough and you're really exploring this relationship between the two main characters but you do wonder there is this cold case the dad is trying to close. And you really wonder how this is going to end. because that is something where it's like the message of this comic is going to live or die on that resolution. It's setting a lot up on that. And I was very happy. I didn't doubt it because Joe Kelly, I knew he was a thoughtful writer. Yeah. Another thing Joe Kelly has done in the past is he did this one single Superman story. It's one issue. It's Action Comics 775. It's called What's so good about, no, am gonna remember this title? What's the phrase, truth in something in the American way? Truth, justice, and the American way of And it's like, what's so good about truth, justice in the American way? That's the title of the story. And it's one single issue that explores kind of the extreme vigilante violence versus the Superman style of superheroics and puts them up against each other. because Superman is supposed to represent that like truth, justice in the American way, like the idea in the systems, Ideals, faith in the systems, faith in humanity, not going in and tearing everything down to rebuild it from scratch kind of a thing, which is sort of that modern way of wanting to do everything. And to this day, that one single story, people are like, that's one of the best Superman stories ever written, ever told. And I agree with it. It is one of the best comics ever done and one of the best takes on Superman that everything that we say is outdated about the character is pitted up against all these new ideas of how we're supposed to fix things. And it does a great job, similar. to how this comic looks at the two generations and heroic cop versus the very conflict avoidant, empathetic, younger generation. And it's like, it's not like we need hero cops. No, it doesn't say that. It basically at the end of the day is like, that was never a good idea. That was never a good idea. That's good point. It's like we don't need Dirty Harry. Like Dirty Harry will always be a bad idea, but cops are like, they are there and they have a certain way of looking at things that is still important because they're dealing with the side of life that a lot of us literally try to close our eyes to and not deal with. And we do need people to deal with it. And that is its own thing up to a point. it finds that to a point it finds a happy medium and gives credit where it's due. But at the other hand is like, the hero cop myth, that is something that has been, even Jim Sargent at the end of the day, when he realizes where his cold case goes and what he's been living his life in a fantasy about was like, and he's like, this was wasted fucking time. like not that something wrong didn't happen, not that there wasn't a right to be made, But what he thought it was and what he thought he'd do about it was all a fantasy in his head. He had collected and you know to a certain degree you look at his job right he is a cop a detective it is about pulling the disparate elements together in order to create a story in order to reveal a tale the truth hopefully and yeah and unfortunately with this case that's kind of been exaggerated and exalted and turned to 10 over years and years and years so that he's created this mythos in his mind to a certain degree that he's essentially chasing that he finds out is essentially very far away from the truth, right? And I think that commentary alone I'd be interested to talk to Joe Kelly about what inspired this specifically from his dad's life. Because I'm sure there has to be some unrequited, some anecdote, something in his dad's life that really just sort of planted a seed in him. Either that or it could be a true crime story type of a thing, like something where it's like, here's where we, like this unsolved murder that turned out to be blank. And it's like, and maybe that was just like that kernel of like, yes, an unsolved quote unquote murder. And yes, but at the same time, wasn't cruel, inhumane, know, this villainous, demonic, murderous son of a bitch. kind of a thing that was in his head. like, it was just a tragedy that he was spending his whole life trying to correct in a hero versus villain way when that wasn't what the situation actually was. And all he did was commit himself to correcting a tragic wrong that was colored in a different way, because he made it a mythological thing. He made it a good versus evil. thing. That's where things go a little bit wrong. It's so interesting you mentioned that and you also mentioned his treatment a Joe Kelly's treatment of the Superman arc because To a certain degree sergeant has created this avatar of himself within himself as a hero Who is hell-bent on You know straight chasing down this demon this you know this sort of icon of evil in his mind and it's interesting how that sort of concept has bastardized over the years in his psyche. Interesting commentary, I'm not going anywhere, but just I like the character, I like the character a lot. I did not expect to like this character as much as I did, but upon reflection, this is exactly the kind of character I would like, because it's kind of me. so sure of themselves and then So right, so sure of themselves, but also occasionally wrong. But also like very hard to let like it takes him the whole series to accept the being wrong about anything. Right. It's like it. That seemed a little personal, Dave. That seemed a little targeted. Calm down. but not in a little way, right? I think the thing that finally makes him do it is because the thing he was wrong about was such a giant. Right, right, right. And so that. Yes. And so it was like, you know, it's not a little thing, which is like you could. It's easy for us to not accept any slight like you could be slightly wrong about this, but such a tiny issue that we're like, no, we're right. Whatever. And it's like, it's not a big deal one way or the other. So we don't care enough to, to go through this journey of accepting what little bits of it we might be wrong about. But then when the big thing you're wrong, that thing you've held on your whole life and you're like, yeah. And then he realizes what he's done to his family because of it too. And there are, there's even this beautiful thematic. mirroring between his family and the tragedy that befell the other family that he's been trying to correct all these years. And there's this one beautiful line at the very end where he comes back from resolving this whole thing. His son was in the hospital kind of sitting this part of it out. And the son was like, so what happened? And the dad kind of referencing both his life and the life he just and the other family's life that he just came from. And he just says, I threw away a child. Here's, by the way, that line, that scene, that line is so cinematic and it is such expert narrative and writing that I was sitting there imagining the film and imagining that moment and I'm not a crier, but I was like, if I had human emotions, I'd probably cry here. Right? Because it was so lady it was doing it was pulling double duty It was putting us in touch with the macro and the micro with his sort of life's mission and also in touch with his relationship to this little boy that Yes, you know who he's affected, you know every day of his life and so it was so masterful so beautifully done and Bravo Joe on the writing there. I'm telling you man. We need some more screenplays on you Yes. I mean, to be fair, I Kill Giants was made into movie. This this is another point I wanted to make. This would make such an incredible movie. Yeah. This would make this is so easily cinematic being dramatic, like a family drama, kind of a double family drama and an exploration of the myth of the hero cop, that old, you know, dirty Harry style thing and like taking it into the modern world and really peeling it apart and seeing both the good and bad that is a part of that. and dissecting it and the good and bad of the modern world and our kind of conflict avoidance and just wanting to love and be empathetic about everything and kind of really taking both sides to task on their extremeness when they get extreme. Yeah. And this would be such Sundance fodder. It would be a moderate budget. Yes, it would be something and a controlled budget. It's just a slice of life with a little bit of like car chasey. action but not much. Just enough. You could make this, I mean, if you had no big stars or they were working for backend and you didn't have to pay them, like, this could be done for a million dollars easily. You'd want more. for sure you want more but you could you could you could do a very slick and lovely film for a million dollars of this now here's the question This is easy Blumhouse, like levels of budget. So easy who you're casting in the roles, though This is the first time we've done. Well, you've done fan cast on These are right people though, you know half of people listening are like, No, shit. That is a question. I'm gonna say for the dad, for Jim Sargent, he was the bald guy in the meal crap. What? gotta. For me personally, so the first name that comes to mind for the immortal Jim Sargent is Michael Fassbender. I think he would be an incredible Jim Sargent. Especially after seeing him in The Killer, the David Fincher Netflix movie recently. just sort of that like he's good at being very confident but also unassuming in its way. And you know, he's got the right build where it's slight but powerful. And like if when and if he's got to whip it out, he will do it in a heartbeat. But at the same time, he's very good at just having this confident air about him. And in his older age, he's starting to get that grizzled look to him. Perfect grizzled. Give him a mustache like the like Jim Sargent. And I'm telling you, I think Michael Fassbender would be my deal. I feel like you might need to go smaller than that if you're to keep the budget under control. yeah. Yeah, but if you're going to do a Netflix movie and they're going to be like, we love Michael Vostbender, The Killer was a hit, know, kind of a thing. It's like, great, cast him in this and let's do that for him. What's the guys what's his name Christopher Maloney? He is he starts with Mariska Hargitay in NYPD Okay, okay. Yeah, NYPD. He's a great actor. started that actually he started another comic book series on Sci-fi. was Sci-fi Network's first comic book series called Happy. I was spelling it with an E at the end. Yeah, he was in happy which was a sci-fi network A great first season of that. Yeah Yeah, that'd be my my initial cast for that anyway, don't we don't mind a little a fan cast occasionally around No, no, no. What about the sun? What do you think about the sun? I mean, yeah, that's that's a little bit harder just because. We'll with an unknown. We'll go with an unknown. Keep the budget down. Yeah, well that too. But a little up and coming, right? Someone needs to a tiny splash somewhere or another. But yeah, I'd have to that some thought. I know. Okay. But the immortal sergeant Christopher Maloney or Michael Fassbender depending on the size and their willingness to do it. Like maybe you're like, hey, it's the creator of Deadpool and it's his latest movie and it's, you know, Indian, I don't know, maybe. Like their agent, you have to be friends with Fossunder himself and be able to get to him. Cause the agent of course is like, that's not a payday for me. I'm not getting your script, damn. We're filming it in three weeks. You're out of the in and out in three weeks. It's you know two locations Yeah, but for all you people who don't work in the film world, if you want a big name actor, they don't take their agent will not help you get a role that pays little to nothing. That's right. Right. For back end, because the agent then doesn't get paid. They get 10 percent of whatever their client does. So they will not even if they tell you they're like, yeah, we'll read it like, no, they're We'll pass it right on. Then they're going to pass on it. And you're not going to know if the postponder ever read it or not. No, there you will have to find a friend of a friend like you will need to somehow be chummy and get the actor to get excited about the project and tell their agent they're doing the project. And the actor has to be in a position where they're doing well enough that they can tell their agent that they're just doing the project for a month and the agents just got to block that out of the schedule. But that's how you're going to get to do that. Agents and managers, they only make tiny percentages of the big lump sum payday. So managers are usually a little more open to the idea because they're trying to cultivate their client's career as a whole. But if the client is already has a great career, they're also not really going to care. And they're going to be like, no, we need the big fat payday. So yeah, that's not going to work. You're going to need to get it to the actor. Why it's called a craft guys, because sometimes you gotta figure out how to connect the angles and the people and be in the right place. you know, your personality and your ability to be personable goes a long way. And I'm not a very personable person. I try, but it's just not my nature. So I surround myself with very personable people like Dave. That's true. He's like, you're going to sell my screenplay one of these days. I'm like, am I? You're doing this. Even though he's very good at it when he has to do it, sometimes he's better than me. I watch him do it and then he comes out and he's like, I hate doing it. And I'm like, Dallas, I did not speak one word that whole time. You just kept going. I'm like, you ran that room. What are you even talking about? And then I have to go sleep for three days and cry right right yeah he has to go in a cafe for three days yes this is true Anyway, all right. Yeah, this so so just final thoughts on this one for me Dave. I just say Fairly, guess as I'm not impressed because I knew I knew it was going to be something interesting just based on Joe's reputation and Morris reputation of course and have being familiar with I killed giants by the way guys if you haven't checked out I killed giants, please do and I Highly recommend even reading these two, not side by side, but in proximity to one another time wise, and just look at how vastly different they are in style, in storytelling. And it's a testament to allowing creators to just create what is important to them, what is burning inside of them to answer the questions that they've been asking themselves their entire life. And often you get some really, really, really good art out of it. And this is just that. It's fantastic. Yeah, it's funny. I just double checked. do own I kill giants on digital. I still haven't watched it. but it I bought it. I did support you that way. Joe. Let's put it there. All right, guys, we're now let's talk about the wines that we've actually paired it with the specific wines that we actually paired it with. D man, how about you go first? All right. Let's see. So I decided to go with something. First of all, think this script, I call everything a script, but it is a script, technically. This graphic novel, this series of comic books is surprisingly deep. And the depth hinges on, as we were talking about earlier, Dave, kind of hinges on that moment of realization for him, which is... essentially where this whole thing has been leading, where the character's life has been leading. And that moment of that realization of the misspent time of the sort of the countless hours spent in service of this, you know, demon that he's essentially been chasing to the detriment of everyone around him that's a heavy and deep moment and this is a company guy for all intents and purposes he's a company guy he serves the company he serves the clock in the clock out the mission he's a jobber and I imagine in that moment when he has that realization if he could reach for anything he would reach for something that was really deep complex smooth but also dark because this is a man who I think has a lot of darkness within him in this moment is also very dark personally for him that the idea of anything any levity or any lightness or any You know anything remotely kind of whimsical I associate like like with whimsy of course it's just out of the question so. I went with a beer I did it absolutely did it 100 %. Two people would think it's a wine. Me and my friend who's a owns a brewery in in Dublin and He calls it why he calls beer why? Okay, actually here why which is you know, I'm sure there's a case to be made that they cross somewhere those who the etymology of those someplace They are fermented and have alcohol. I think that's about it. You know who knows right? But the brewery itself started way back in 1758 I believe it is technically the oldest brewery in still creating in in the modern world I believe and How I found this beer I'm a guy who if I want to develop a vocabulary for something or a like, a passive sort of like, or somehow negate my disgust for something, I kind of lean into it. And I start trying everything until I find something I like. Similar to our discussion about how we kind of got into wine, right? And I've never been a beer guy, but wine is an appropriate for every occasion for me. And I like to add a few different languages there and IPA's disgusting. the other, just all the other classes of wine are just absolutely disgusting to me. But the one class of wine, genre of wine, beer sorry, genre of beer. Are we really going to do this going forward? This is going to be so confusing on an audio podcast, let me tell you. I love it. But all the other ones, you know, I've done beers in different countries and sort of different places and everywhere I go, I try a different beer. It's always just, okay, this tastes like bad. the one class is stout. you know, the old world does stout very well. It's kind of a cornerstone of their vocabulary of beer. And There's chocolate stout, coffee stout, all the different stouts. And for me, the best stout is this oatmeal stout from Samuel Smith's Old Bull Brewery, Tadcaster, 1758. It is just the perfect, perfect beer to me. I imagine this guy who, you know, he is a... gum shoe essentially he's part of that he's a part of that but he's a part of that tradition and that's the fraternal kind of thing and I imagine an oatmeal style from Sam Smith is what he's drinking. That is my pairing people. I'm going to need to try an oatmeal stout one of these days. don't think I ever have. If I have, it's been a long, long time, but I was just talking on Facebook with someone about oat ice cream, oat, oatly ice cream, I love oat milk. I love oat milk. I love all the oat, non-dairy, whatever, whatever, whatever it, cause I just, love. Yes. if I I used to scrape the filling out I hate the filling because you hate the icing. I literally one of the non dairy ice creams I just had was oatmeal dream pie ice cream, which is that Ben and Jerry's as a non dairy and made out of oat milk. And it is the little Debbie cream pies all blended in this oat milk base and just like all so good. So good. yeah, oatmeal oatmeal flavor. I can imagine myself maybe being able to get into a stout without oatmeal flavor and aftertaste. So As mentioned before, for me, I did a very old fashioned style of wine done somewhere you probably wouldn't expect. this is, you know, there's something about this comic that was just. No, not it. I don't think so. OK, it's not what we can. This is a I mean, it's been this grape has been around. Don't get me wrong. But not it's not one of the noble grapes. Right. So but but the style is pretty close. So there is something about this comic that is and I think the art especially we didn't talk too much about the art, but like that open. sparse style and how light on its feet it makes everything feel, even though the themes are so weighty, some of the things that go on are so weighty. And yet it just, it's a breeze to read. You just go through it. So I wanted a sparkling wine. I really wanted something that was just, that had that effervescence that was just, you don't need to sip it too often, but when you do, you get so much in the mouth. And I did something in, a proper traditional, traditional, champignois style, so proper champagne method. But it is a sparkling alvarinho from Portugal, from the Vinho Verde. And this is a, it's a 2020 Quintas del Magascio, with the C with a little squiggly underneath it, right? So, Melgasso, Super Reserva, a sparkling alvarinho. This is, it's done in the proper Champenoise style, which is the champagne method, which is a second fermentation happening in the bottle. So it is aged in the bottle for at least 24 months. So two years before being released. It was, did a post on Substack and the social media. I think you noticed it Dallas, where I had the sparkling wine and I said it looked like a galaxy in a glass. Yeah, of that was this sparkling alvarino. It has that nice dark when you do a champagne method, it sits on the leaves, the leaves being the dead yeast cells because you do a second fermentation in the bottle. Everything stays in the bottle for a long period of time. And at one point you eject and you filter it out. And then the bottle you buy does not have this dead yeast cells in it. But it stays in the bottle all this time that it's fermenting. And then this 24 months in bottle age. usually is on the leaves. And so you get all these bready, biscuity aromas. The color of the wine is nice and dark, almost borderline butterscotch-y caramel in color. And it just gets these slight nutty notes and this unctuousness. And the bubbles, I have never, I'm gonna give this wine this credit. It was the perfect bubbles. It wasn't too light and not too heavy. I'm not a big sparkling wine fan. It usually gives me indigestion. I do want to like it. It just doesn't work with me very often. So I drink it very rarely. And this one never the bubbles were flawless. And I don't like the weight of them the moose as they call it. the tickle as they say you get the shimmer the tickle interesting And it's more than a frizzante. I'm not a big fan of frizzante. I kind of hate frizzante, to be honest. not, hate's a strong word, but frizzante is one of those things where I'd rather, I'm like, you're so close to a still wine, just a still wine. I'm like, why this hint of trickle trickle? Like, I don't know. It feels like it's a tease that goes nowhere. Yeah, feel honest to me. It did not flat champagne, but it feels like champagne that's okay. You're like, why are you there? You're not doing anything. So, Frizzante is not my favorite. a little, I don't drink a lot of it. So, to be fair, know, I could be better exposed. But I like the bubbles to be more. But when the bubbles get really heavy and really pronounced, there is something about it. And it's funny because soda doesn't do this to me, but sparkling wine does. There's something about the way the bubbles are where I just get, I burp for like hours after and I'm like, and I get the sour stomach and it's bleh. But this one, it feels so nice. It had this slight almost oiliness texture to it, to the wine itself, that worked so well with the bubbles. I don't know, there was something texturally. texturally. I thought it like a minerality. Okay, gotcha. Oh, no oily like something in the base wine itself, there was a slight oiliness or just wait to it. That was so nice. That worked so fucking well with the bubbles. I enjoyed this wine. So through and through now, I bought this wine through Diniz Cellars, D I N I Z. Diniz Cellars I actually linked to them in a recent sub stack that was for LA wildfire relief. Because when I bought this wine, they were donating 22 % of proceeds to wildfire relief. And this is a lady Sandra Rocha, Sandra Gomez Rocha or Roca. I'm not sure how to pronounce that. She has Portuguese roots, Portuguese background. She lives here in LA. She was actually in my WC3 class. So I know her from that. And I placed an order with her during the wildfire relief thing and got this sparkling Alvarino because I'd never had a sparkling Alvarino before. And boy has this blown me away. So. I got to sit in on a producer tasting when she went to one of the local wine shops, because I picked up my order there. And she was like, I'm letting them sample all the wines. They let me taste them too. She has a 100 % Alicante Bouchet out of Portugal that she carries. Alicante Bouchet is one of the rare grape varieties out there that has a red pulp, so a red juice, not just red skins. So when you press the juice, it's already lightly red. You can't make a purely white wine out of this no matter what. that blew the, it's actually the Alicante Bouchet is what the wine shop wound up picking up because they were like, that's amazing. Yeah. And I have a bottle of that as well. haven't opened it yet. So that might show up in a pairing in the future as well. she's a Portuguese wine importer, but she can sell direct to the public on her website at any number of bottles. So you can go to the website. We'll have a link down below. and pick up a bottle, definitely get the super reserve of sparkling Alvarino, Alvarinho, which is Alvarinho. But that's the Portuguese spelling of it and pronunciation of it with an H. And yeah, from the vinoverde, excellent, excellent sparkling Alvarinho. And so old school method, new world-ish style and producer. so I really, thought, and then I wanted that sparkling. I wanted that effervescence with this comic, something light on its feet. Those are our parents. Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. I like both those pairings. I'm have to check. I did too. Yeah. Like I said, I got to try your oatmeal stout too. And then when you're back in LA someday, we will, we'll I'll hit her up for another bottle of that. We can just go pick it up from her place. She's here and she'd be, I can literally be like, can I just buy one bottle and I'll just swing by and grab it. And she'll probably say yes. So now it's easy for us. And if you're in the LA area, Hey, definitely look her up otherwise. But yeah, she does ship. She will take, she has a warehouse and all that fun stuff she can take on online orders. So once again, guys, Immortal Sergeant by Joe Kelly and Ken Nomura from Image Comics. It's in trade paperback form. You can buy it digitally. I would even recommend looking at it that way. And then check out their previous work, I Kill Giants, either film from 2017 or the graphic novel as well, which has out been prevalent. And this has been another episode of Wine and soon not to be called Wine and, but for now still called Wine and. We will see you next week for another wine and entertainment pairing for your entertainment. Until then, take care. and we'll talk to you then, Ciao! you