Hire with Confidence

Social Procurement with David Campbell

• Season 2 • Episode 2

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In our second episode of season two, we explore social procurement in the workplace with David Campbell, an experienced Senior Project Manager of Social Sustainability within the construction industry.

During this enlightening interview, David offers a clear definition of social procurement and shares insights into his career journey and passion for this field. He illustrates real-life examples of successful social procurement initiatives for businesses and lists helpful resources for businesses to get started.

We also delve into the dynamic aspects of social enterprises and its potential impact. Additionally, David offers valuable advice on how both businesses and employees can actively engage in social procurement, identifies common barriers, and outlines low hanging fruit for businesses to accelerate progress in this area.

Tune in for a compelling conversation that sheds light on the significance of social procurement in today's workforce!

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Rebecca Miller:

People 2U acknowledges the traditional owners of country on which we live and work throughout Australia and pay our respects to Elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures. This is the Hire With Confidence podcast presented by People 2U. Businesses and its people can be a force for good, but we are also aware most businesses are chasing value for money in the pursuit of maximising profits. If you spend a little time and effort, you will find there are many, many skilled and beneficial organisations which can help your business while having a big positive impact on wider society. This is the main aim of social procurement.

Rebecca Miller:

Today we will cover what social procurement is, how businesses can do it well and why it should matter to absolutely everyone. With over 20 years of experience in the construction industry across the UK and Australia, today's guests first dipped their toes into the world of social procurement during 2019 and now they work full-time as a Senior Project Manager of Social Sustainability, tasked with delivering the social procurement outcomes across all Victorian construction projects for a Tier 1 contractor. David Campbell, it is great to have you on the show today. Thanks for being here.

David Campbell:

Thanks for having me.

Rebecca Miller:

First question off the top, in 30 seconds or less, if you can. What's the simple definition of social procurement for yourself?

David Campbell:

Social procurement is about using the buying power of the business you work in to generate social value beyond the value of the goods and services that you're buying.

Rebecca Miller:

And what was that moment when you knew you wanted to work within this space?

David Campbell:

Good question. I think the penny dropped when I realised that I could do the things that I wanted to do in terms of making a difference outside of work. I could actually do those by doing my work, and when I can put those two worlds together, I went, ah, this is a good direction to go.

Rebecca Miller:

Now speaking about social procurement. What makes you most excited about this space?

David Campbell:

I love the impact it has, but I love seeing the change. I kind of sometimes equate it to you sometimes see the flame get lit when the that that you know. You're talking earlier about the penny dropping. Yep, that's one of those things. When I see that within people, that kind of go oh, hang on, we can do this. It's actually good for our business. Yep, and I feel good about it and seeing them people and it's different, different things for different people. Quite often it's actually going out and seeing them people and it's different, different things for different people. Quite often it's actually going out and seeing a social enterprise and seeing what they do and then getting it and going. This isn't just an invoice or a quote that's coming through. This is actually having a profound effect on people. Yep, it's gone from something where people go what, what is it? Yep, and more moving to how do I do it and is it real?

Rebecca Miller:

and that's why we have you on today, because it is such a hot topic and some people aren't quite sure where to start.

David Campbell:

And it's really exciting to see now that it feels like we're at a bit of a tipping point where many of the people that I'm talking to have some understanding and beginning to see quite a lot of our subcontractors and the businesses we work with are already a fair way down the journey and then coming back with new ideas and things. So, rather than going, you could try and talk to this person or what about this business? They're beginning to come back with, oh we found this opportunity, we can do this, and then that's exciting, that's momentum.

Rebecca Miller:

That's really cool. Now some people sort of think, uh, social procurement is just working with indigenous Australians and disability people. But it's so much more. You know there's. There's local content. There's uh disadvantaged Australians, there's women in construction apprentices. Have I missed anything?

David Campbell:

I I think, probably, social enterprise captures many of those things as well, but working with social enterprise is a fairly broad bucket, because the definition of a social enterprise is a full-purpose business that invests at least half of their profit back into their purpose and, to differentiate it from charities, it's a business that derives the majority of their revenue from trade. So being for purpose is quite general and that can mean anything. It can be from an environmental outcome, it could be to do with a particular demographic group, it could be to do with a local area, but the important thing is there's for a social purpose.

Rebecca Miller:

Yeah, love it. It's a big bucket, as you say, very broad. This might also be a very broad question, but you know what's the starting point for a business looking to have a positive impact.

David Campbell:

Yeah, good question. It's probably two things in parallel. The first thing is understand what you do as a business. Now that probably sounds a bit funny because most people will say, well, I know what I do, because you measure yourself typically on the output of the things that you're working in or the area you're working on. But it means a little bit of a deeper dive. Where do you spend your money? What are the people that work on what you do? Do they work for you? Do they work for your supply chain? Where are the opportunities? Sometimes it's also where are the pain points. It's also where the pain points, because some of the biggest successes have been where businesses have struggled to do something, or it's been, it's not been easy, and there's a social enterprise that actually goes. I use an example it's probably the best way yeah, please do there was a business that needed some specific steel brackets made up.

David Campbell:

But they're relatively small and they're quite fiddly and because they did other bits of steel work, they go to the larger steel contractors and they do it a bit more as a as a love job, to be honest, because it was an important client for them but it wasn't their core business. There's a social enterprise called ability works. It's got a metal fabrication workshop that can, that could do the brackets really well and that was actually really good work for them. So it actually dealt with a business problem while creating some really meaningful employment for people with disability, and you just look at that, that's a win-win.

Rebecca Miller:

No one's losing in that situation, are they?

David Campbell:

No.

Rebecca Miller:

You know, when these businesses look at their money and do the deep dive, what sort of questions should they be asking themselves to analyse where their money should be used for good?

David Campbell:

They should be looking which things are fixed, because there's some stuff that's actually really hard to change. You might have an existing relationship with a supplier. Just because they're not a social enterprise or a First Nations business or a disability enterprise doesn't mean there's no social value in that organisation. It could be a really small business that's local to you and seen you through for many years. So not saying that you should only go to social enterprises, but it's just having that really hard look and going what things actually? Where are the levers? What have I got? That's the opportunity. The other side was looking at what are the businesses and organisations that are out there that provide goods and services that I could buy. So that's for social enterprises. Social Traders is the certifying organisation Yep, and they've got a website that actually has all the registered people in. You can join up with Social Traders, which gives you more access, but the directory is accessible to everyone.

Rebecca Miller:

Okay.

David Campbell:

For First Nations businesses. There's Supply Nation nationally and here in Victoria there's Kinaway. That's a local chamber of commerce and they'll be able to tell you almost the other side. That's the supply side. So here are the organisations that can actually sell goods and services to you.

Rebecca Miller:

Yeah.

David Campbell:

And then you put the two together, so you go. Where's my?

Rebecca Miller:

Now I'm sure before that penny drops there can be some resistance and some excuses. What are the common problems or challenges you face trying to implement social procurement or help others implement that?

David Campbell:

Some of it is, like I touched on earlier, to do with the existing relationships. The construction industry is built upon relationships and upon people having done good by the people they're working with. You work on track records, so to introduce any new player, whether they're a social benefit supplier or whether they're mainstream business, there's always some resistance because you've got some loyalty there, and that's a good thing. There definitely is capability and capacity issues as well with many of the businesses within the sector. Some of them are small, some of them are starting up and also some of them, as they're driven by purpose, that's really their focus.

David Campbell:

So there's a maturing going on at the moment within the social benefits supplier sector at the moment as well, and what that means is a slightly different mindset. As someone who's buying to go, where are you actually at at the moment? What is actually going to work for the social benefit supplier in terms of setting them up for success? What's an acceptable risk and I go back to perceived and actual risk for appointing a social benefit supplier, and often it's more of a relationship, so it's not just as easy as pinging out a can I have a price list? Sometimes it's a bit more about getting to know some of the organisations and working with them over a longer period of time.

Rebecca Miller:

Very well said. Why should Australian employees care about social procurement?

David Campbell:

The workforces that we have, especially the younger generations coming through, are red-hot on holding businesses to account.

Rebecca Miller:

Red-hot is a good description.

David Campbell:

To say, look, this is important to us. It's not a big leap to go if the business is saying all this amazing stuff in their ESG thing but it's actually not materialising in the things that I see in terms of how you're behaving as an organisation, with your workforce, with where you're spending your money, that you really look at it only as money. That also reflects back on yourself as an employee, you go well.

David Campbell:

am I just someone who's producing output if you've got businesses that genuinely engage and care about the social value that they're creating through all of their actions?

Rebecca Miller:

again it's a pretty easy one to flip back to go well if the business actually cares about these things maybe they care about me too yeah, yeah, that organizational reputation attracts a lot of employees and is a great retention and retainment tool as well for businesses.

David Campbell:

And also we find that we ask a lot in the construction industry. It's lock hours, it's a tough industry. And sometimes we're really focused on deliverables. It can be quite a linear thing where there are very set time, program, quality, safety requirements that you have to hit and you're really focused on that. Sometimes it can be a breath of fresh air as well, where you can go we're delivering this cool stuff.

David Campbell:

Look at what we've built at the end of it but it's always the stories about people. Not only do you see the physical thing that's there and the impact that that's having on the place that you live, but you always talk about the stories about the people.

Rebecca Miller:

What are some steps managers can take today to accelerate social procurement within their business?

David Campbell:

Focus on one or two things. I've fallen into the trap of realising there's many opportunities and lots of different things you can do, but often there's a bit of legwork that's involved in actually making something stick and doing it well. You're better off doing one or two things and really investing in making them happen. Then you slowly build up over time and it's much more manageable to do a few things at any one time I would say, also really focus on the things that are going to resonate.

David Campbell:

If it resonates with the team that's working on it, that little bit of extra legwork that you may need is not work because you go okay, this makes sense. This is something I really want to do, rather than something I feel I have to do. There's always also some quick kills as well.

Rebecca Miller:

Yeah, low-hanging fruit, almost. Yeah. Well, fruit's a great one, to be honest. The fruit box is you can take that one with you, Dave.

David Campbell:

Fruit box is definitely a low-hanging fruit. There's an organisation called Fruit2 Work that works with people that have had contact with the justice system, and it's simplest, it's groceries, it's milk bread fruit. Get delivered to your office or your site. It's competitive and the recidivism rate for the people that work there is extraordinary. So you look at that and go, yeah, I could be spending that quite easily and that's just a simple change where the purchase order's going.

Rebecca Miller:

Yep, another low-hanging fruit that I think of is stationary. Like that's a really low-hanging fruit too for a lot of businesses. Would you agree?

David Campbell:

Yes, stationary, PPE, first aid equipment. There's quite a few social benefit suppliers in all of those areas.

Rebecca Miller:

Would you recommend to create a team or a committee for this work within an organisation, or do you just leave it to one person?

David Campbell:

I think you need champions. Now, i t depends on the size of the organisation as to whether that's someone that is passionate about this and is prepared to be that go-to, or whether it's a big enough organisation that that can actually be someone's full-time gig. It's a combination of project champions or champions within the business and a small number of those, but then figuring out, how do we then get the message from them to where the action's happening, in terms of where those decisions are being made?

David Campbell:

But, then the thing I'd add to that, the flip side is also. I'm in that champion role, and it's also actually really important for me to step back at times Once the intro's been done and there's enough common ground that's been set there to be able to go actually. This is a deal that is being done between a supplier or a subcontractor and the project team, and it's actually important that they have a relationship as well while they're doing the deal, rather than it being something that is imposed upon the team, so it's getting that balance right.

Rebecca Miller:

I'd love to talk about women in construction, if you're comfortable. I'd love for People 2U to learn something in this space. Obviously, you know we work within the construction trade space. You know what are some good measures or strategies to help increase women in construction.

David Campbell:

There's a whole range of different things. What we quite often look at is we'll look at okay, what's actually the environment, what's the culture, what are the parameters that are actually in place at the moment, and is there any work that needs to be done there? Another really important part is looking at where are there going to be hiring opportunities. An organisation is where it is at that point in time.

David Campbell:

And we know that gender diversity within the construction industry is far from parity. How do you make those steps moving forwards? Because if it's a licensed trade and the way in is through apprenticeships, then that's obviously the way that's the door in. So you then look at, well, how many apprentices are we hiring this year? And then go, well, okay, out of that, what would that actually mean over time? Then that's a really slow way of making change, but it's an important one to recognise, which is tomorrow we won't have 50% women in construction. It will take time In terms of the work conditions. It's something where making your workplace as supportive as you can. And again, I've been really heartened by some of the attitudes and some of the conversations we've had with some of the younger people managers and some, to be honest, people managers across the board. But especially I remember a conversation with a young project manager who was talking about the org chart for a project.

David Campbell:

Okay, and he actually threw it back across the table and went there's not enough balance here. That won't make a good project, Okay, and he actually threw it back across the table and went there's not enough balance here, that won't make a good project and that was a really profound thing to turn around and go. He was there going no, if it's too male-dominated.

Rebecca Miller:

Yep, there's no diversity.

David Campbell:

That's not a good project team and it was great to hear coming from projects the recognition that diversity, that's in its rawest form, diversity is important.

Rebecca Miller:

And how did the people around the table respond when he threw it back?

David Campbell:

Yeah, you're right, and it got changed. It was great.

Rebecca Miller:

Wow, awesome. That's a really cool story. Thank you for sharing that one. Is there anything else you want to put on the record at all or educate our audience whether that be our clients or our employees about social procurement?

David Campbell:

I think it's actually start. Often there's a lot of talk, there's a lot of strategising, there's a lot of what are we going to do? Half of that you don't necessarily predict or get right. Yep, make a start, do something. And whether that's the low hanging fruit or picking one or two substantive things and saying, ok, we're going to focus on this and get this done, it can be hard Construction. Quite often there are KPIs or targets. I think most people you speak to about targets will have really mixed views. They're very blunt tools.

David Campbell:

My take on it is, t hey are useful, they provide imperative and they provide that contractual imperative and I like to think of as a push in the back to say this is important, but it that's all it can be. It's actually got to go back to intent of what you're actually trying to achieve and use that as almost that pressure. But the actions that drive from there are more to do with actually making substantive change and about the intent of what you're actually trying to do. So I would say, keep that as your guiding star, which is always about the intent, not about the numbers, and do something.

Rebecca Miller:

I learned from a previous mentor. She had a saying for me progress over perfection. What is your coffee order? And it doesn't have to be, you know, within a social enterprise. I don't want to make you feel bad.

David Campbell:

It is a long black with one sugar.

Rebecca Miller:

Dave, thank you so much for your time, your knowledge and sharing your experiences with us. I know I've got a lot out of this, and I'm sure our listeners will too, so thank you very much.

David Campbell:

Thanks for having me.

Rebecca Miller:

You're a busy, busy person, so thank you very much for listening to this episode. If you liked what you heard, drop us a review, because that will help the show immensely. People 2U, people for here, there, anywhere.