A Paradigm Change in Regenerative Finance: With Esther Park, CEO of Cienaga Capital

For all the great regenerative work bubbling up everywhere right now, it seems fair to say that finance and investment in it is lagging a little. As my guest today puts it, we often hear about how farmers and land managers need to change, for example, but we hear less often about how finance and investment needs to change. It’s why a major report and project was launched online in Australia last year by Sustainable Table, ‘Regenerating Investment in Food and Farming’. I hosted a conversation at that launch, which you might remember became episode 161. I never forgot it. So as soon as we knew we were coming to the US / Turtle Island, I asked Esther Park if she’d be up for meeting in person, to dig deeper into her paradigm changing work as CEO of Cienaga Capital.

Key to this story, too, is another pioneering woman you’ll hear about, Sallie Calhoun. 23 years ago, Sallie and her partner acquired Paicines Ranch, originally named Rancho Cienega de los Paicines. They subsequently set in tow a remarkable regeneration of the land, an array of enterprises, and learning journeys for people – including other investors and philanthropists. Sallie later founded Cienaga Capital, and recruited Esther to the lead role. Also key to this story, in all manner of unexpected ways, is Esther’s Korean ancestry.

Head here for chapter markers if you’d like to see an overview or navigate the conversation that way. You can find a transcript there too (also available on Apple and some other apps), which is AI generated and imperfect, but hopefully provides greater access for those who need or like to read.

Recorded at UCB, Berkeley, on 3 May 2024.

Title slide: Esther Park where we started our conversation (pic: Anthony James).

See more photos on the episode web page, and to see more from behind the scenes, become a member via the Patreon page.

Music:
Green Shoots, by The Nomadics.

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, from Regenerating Australia.

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests (thanks to Josie Symons).

Transcript

Esther: 0:00

I said, we adamantly, categorically, do not track any impact metrics, and somebody in one of our groups just went oh my gosh, I don't have to do that. And I feel like, you know, the mainstream system is always telling us like these are the ways that we do things and these are the ways that they should be done. These are the ways that things have always been done. And so we believe that that's how we should be doing things. And in some cases, we've observed that simply giving people permission to think differently is all they really need to take that next step. So it's like oh wait, I don't have to get a market rate return. Oh wait, I don't have to worry about impact metrics.

AJ: 1:12

G'day. My name's Anthony James and this is The RegenNarration. Live from the extraordinary, sacred country of the Mojave Desert at Joshua Tree National Park in the southeast of California. It's ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. So thanks a lot to generous new subscribing members, brilliant friend Bec Hamersley and cool cousin Sue Kingham. If you're also finding value in all this, please consider joining Bec and Sue, part of a great community of supporting listeners, for as little as $3 a month or whatever you can and want to contribute. Subscribing members get exclusive access to behind the scenes stuff from me, like video messages from where I'm standing right now. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration. com/ support and thanks again. For all the great regenerative work bubbling up everywhere right now,

AJ: 2:09

it seems fair to say that finance and investment in it is lagging a little. As my guest today puts it, ' We often hear about how farmers and land managers, for example, need to change, but we hear less often about how finance and investment needs to change.' It's why a major report and project was launched online from Australia last year by Sustainable Table, regenerating Regenerating investment Investment in food Food and farming Farming I hosted a conversation at that launch which, you might remember, became episode 161. I never forgot it. So as soon as we knew we were coming to the US / Turtle Island, I asked Esther Park if she'd be up for meeting in person to dig deeper into her paradigm-changing work as CEO of Cienega Capital.

AJ: 2:57

Key to this story, too, is another pioneering woman you'll hear about, Sallie Calhoun. 23 years ago, Sallie and her partner acquired Paicines Ranch, originally named Rancho Cienega de los Paicines. They subsequently set in tow a remarkable regeneration of the land, an array of enterprises, and learning journeys for people, including other investors and philanthropists. Sallie later founded Cienega Capital and recruited Esther to the lead role. Also key to this story in all manner of unexpected ways is Esther's Korean ancestry. We met up at a spiritual home of sorts for her now, in Berkeley, California. We bring you into some of the street action too, you might say, before moving somewhere quieter after a while. Hey, Esther.

Esther: 3:49

Hi. AJ: where are we? EP: We're in Berkeley. We're on the UC Berkeley campus, actually right in front of Zellerbach Hall, one of our main performing centres.

AJ: 4:00

You went here as an undergrad too, right?

Esther: 4:02

I did yes.

AJ: 4:03

And you live up the road and your office is up the road in the other direction, so this really feels like home.

Esther: 4:08

It does. Yeah, I spent my formative years here as an undergraduate and then coming back to have a family. So, yeah, this is my home.

AJ: 4:19

And that was after your little sojourn to Chicago, which didn't seduce you while you did your master's there. Seven winters in Chicago was enough, that was enough, but you came back with a husband, so that's right, that's right.

Esther: 4:30

There's your family.

AJ: 4:31

You grew up nearby and you're not far.

Esther: 4:34

Right. So I grew up about a hundred miles from here inland, in Sacramento, which is the capital of California.

AJ: 4:39

What was it like growing up there?

Esther: 4:42

Um, I would say it was a pretty typical suburban experience.

AJ: 4:46

Yeah.

Esther: 4:47

Yeah.

AJ: 4:48

Does it feel distant now or you still feel some connection?

Esther: 4:51

It feels pretty distant. So you know, my folks don't live there anymore, so it doesn't feel like a place that I go to anymore for any reason.

AJ: 5:02

Yeah.

Esther: 5:02

And it's changed so much. I will also say that the pace of development has been really fast there, to the point where even just driving around it's unrecognizable.

AJ: 5:13

Yes, we were just talking about this off air, weren't we? And topically enough, listeners listen to this. We'll hear the construction that is surrounding us. We went to some effort to find the quieter spot and there was construction absolutely everywhere, which is the interesting way of the development model we have that you never seem to quite get there. That aside, when we first met online for the Sustainable Table launch event last year, we kicked off in a similar vein just all the more being remote from each other around the world at that event, with a sense of place, and you kicked off with a sense of your own, but also a bit of backdrop to it, a bit of original peoples here and from your ancestral background. How do you feel? What do you know about your sense of place, I guess, beyond your immediate sort of experience of home here?

Esther: 6:11

You know, california just has a really interesting history in general. I mean, of course it was we. We had our first peoples here and here in in the Bay Area they were known as the Ohlone people and actually I'll tell you a bit of a story there's. There are these things called shell mounds here in the, in this part of the Bay Area, where these were ancestral burial grounds and they were literally these mounds, so they look like small hills that the Ohlone folks had some tradition around, some ceremony around, and there's maybe only one or two that are still remaining.

Esther: 6:52

Most of them have been raised and developed on, and there's one in Berkeley that has been the point of contention for many years now. It's in the middle of a major shopping strip in Berkeley and it's a parking lot, so it was paved over and the Ohlone have been trying to reclaim that piece of property. Most recently it was owned by a developer and they were probably going to develop it into more retail shopping. Yeah, but in a last-minute bid he said if you can raise X amount of dollars, I will sell it to you, and so, with the help of the city and and some foundations, and one foundation in particular who put up a big amount that he was looking for, they were able to purchase it. So, yeah, that was pretty recent and it's a huge win for the community to preserve that place, which is important in their ancestral history.

Esther: 7:58

And I think that in a place like Berkeley it's unique in the sense that we've definitely developed according to sort of Western civilized standards, right, and yet something like this can still happen. Right when we have the local tribe here, there's a group called the Sogorote Land Trust and they've developed something called the Shumi Land Tax where, as a person who is sitting on Ohlone land, as somebody who lives on this land, I can impose a tax on myself and donate it to the land trust, and the land trust then is slowly acquiring pieces of property in the area for their tribal activities which is exciting, so yeah, so there's definitely something here.

Esther: 8:49

I think my own history here has also developed like a very spiritual connection to this place.

AJ: 8:55

Yeah, go on Proceed.

Esther: 8:58

You know, this is the place where I did my undergraduate studies, where, you know, I left home for the first time, really started to find myself. Know who am I really digging into? Some of my own, like my own history, my own culture, but also like started, then not not growing up. I mean, I was immersed in it yes, yes, it was normal it was normal.

Esther: 9:21

But then trying to find what does that mean in the context of being in this bigger place with a lot of different people, and really trying to find my own way. You know, did I want to stay immersed in that culture or did I want to go beyond it? And I think that it was a little bit of both, Right, so there was a bit of push and pull. I think there's always some nostalgia for where you came from, but there's also the yearning for something deeper and more meaningful. So I think this place holds that special kind of meaning to me in that way. But now you know it's become home, in the sense that there's a lot of folks here and you know we can talk about living in the bubble, which we certainly do here in California and in the Bay Area in particular, and then even in Berkeley in particular. So we definitely live in a bubble, but in a way it's also where you find your family, your chosen family.

Esther: 10:19

I hear you.

AJ: 10:23

So, speaking of that ancestry, then you were born in California. Yes, so your parents migrated from Korea. When and how did that happen?

Esther: 10:33

Yeah, so it was in 1965 that the US started to loosen up some immigration laws and they were allowing folks to come who were based in some kind of professional level either study or work and so my parents took advantage of that, and they both ended up at UC Davis, which is less than 100 miles from here I don't know how many, but it's only about an hour drive from here and they both ended up there studying my dad studied chemical engineering and my mom studied nutrition, and that's where they met.

AJ: 11:06

Yeah, and this is but this is interesting because of where your life's come yeah so connected to regenerative agriculture in the food system, when that wasn't always predestined. But let's stay with your parents for a moment. So they're perhaps an unlikely match, although maybe not for the era that nutrition was considered so chemically derived or not, I don't know. You tell me, was this an unlikely match in those ways? And I guess how do you look back on it sort of full circle, if you will where your life's ended?

Esther: 11:40

I mean, I actually think it was more just the international student community was probably quite small. And especially both being immigrants from Korea. I think that sort of created a bit of a natural bond. So I think it was more that, maybe, than sort of their respective studies. I don't think there was very much overlap, although, as we were talking earlier, my father ended up.

AJ: 12:01

You know, his professional career was with the California State Department of Food and Agriculture, so yeah, as a chemical engineer, which made me think you know a podcast that will have gone out before ours does as well, with Richard Heinberg, where he mentioned I said to you, he mentioned that his father was doing similar work with quality control in a meat plant, from which point Richard was always vegetarian, right through to the age of 73 now. But yeah, so your dad was doing similar work, Right? Did that have an effect on you? Did you connect in any way to the reality of that at the time?

Esther: 12:39

Not at all, which was kind of interesting. I think it was maybe also a generational thing as well. I wasn't too interested really in what my dad was doing, but he was doing statistical quality control, so similar work, and so he was all. He ran all the numbers for what passed state inspection. So color, acidity, you know quality, all the sort of you. You know fruits and vegetables that come through the system here have to be inspected by the California State Department. And you know there were guys who said your dad runs all the numbers for me. So that's what he was doing and I sometimes he would take business trips and sometimes it was like I visited an ice cream factory.

Esther: 13:26

I mean, that was sort of the level of what I understood my dad to be doing, and I will tell you that. You know, once I started getting into food and agriculture, I started having conversations with my dad about hey, when we were growing up, why didn't we ever talk about organics or how things are farmed or you know? And my dad had a very interesting scientific answer to that, which is you are more likely to die from exposure to e-coli in organic produce then you are to die from the levels of pesticides that they use on non-organic. And he, you know, very matter-of-factly, said they've done studies on rats and it's proven to be true. And that was his scientific brain talking. But the more we talked about it it was interesting because every time I came home I saw another organic product in their kitchen.

AJ: 14:30

Really.

Esther: 14:31

Yeah, Organic jam, organic ketchup like it would just start showing up and I think my dad, you know, becoming a home gardener in his retirement started to really understand more about why those things were important than I think he ever really did in his career. That said, I grew up in the 70s and 80s when the whole food system was based on highly processed, industrialized food. That was what was considered clean 100%.

AJ: 15:03

Yeah, and that's why it's so interesting to hear what your dad was saying, because well, hey, he played a critical role, like these people were saying, he was a linchpin Quitted to him. He helped make the system work that fed people in that way. That was nominally the way to go about it. It's also really revealing of the day and how much we believed what is true With that narrow and I don't mean this disparagingly that the reduction is few, I mean it in its strength as well, that we don't die of a cold life, but that, as he got that perspective of hands-on and perhaps with the wisdom of years, and that started to dawn on him as well, it's really interesting on a range of fronts, I think, perhaps all the more when I think about the other thing you said at the outset of our event, which was a tip of the hat to Korean natural farming.

Esther: 16:04

I think was the terminology you used.

AJ: 16:07

And ostensibly regenerative, as we would talk about today. Regenerative principles, for I don't know. You tell me, how long are we talking? What is this lineage out of Korea, and do you even feel that in you today?

Esther: 16:22

Yeah, that's interesting. Feel that in you today. Yeah, that's interesting. So Korean natural farming is a way of farming that actually fosters a highly fungal environment, really, yeah. So basically what you do is you take rice and you bury it in the forest where the you know, forest soil is highly fungal, and so they bury it there to get all the great sort of microbes and bacteria and fungus, that's all in that area. And then they mix it with whatever they're putting in the soil, right, and so it's this very sort of ancient technique of where is the most healthy soil? It's in the forest, right. So, like, let's culture something there and then bring it onto the farm and bring that fertility to the farm, and so that's the basis for a lot of Korean natural farming.

Esther: 17:14

And that's just historical ancient practice. And you know you find that in a lot of cultures around the world, right. So they practice it in their different ways. You know, in some communities they go and they take volcanic rocks and they, you know, grind them up and then put them on the soil right. So it depends on where you are, what your resources are, what your resource base is and what you have to work with, and so I mean I can't say that I feel especially a strong connection to it. I do feel a bit removed from it. But you know, it's one of those things where it's nice to have that connection, to know what are my ancestral practices.

AJ: 17:56

Yeah, and how do they relate to what you're?

Esther: 17:58

doing now, and how do they relate Exactly?

AJ: 18:00

What so many more of us are talking about. And then I think about when you said these practices over there, but they're now here.

Esther: 18:09

They are now here.

AJ: 18:10

In Korean communities, in Lao communities, obviously First Nations we alluded to at the top, african American communities where they're in some instances coming back to land that almost miraculously, from what I was held onto through the 20th century policies that they grappled with and continuing the hard-won legacies and then growing out from the hard-won legacies of their ancestors here on this country but, of course, drawing on old practices too.

AJ: 18:41

That is all now here and that feels like I mean I showed you a future guest on the podcast Liz Carlisle's book Healing Grounds. We will talk about more with her and that's a documentation of how some of these cultures Latino culture as well here going about this regenerative practice. It's under our noses, under our feet, but under our noses, where policy has marginalised it, the economic system has marginalised it, but there's a flourishing at the same time and it's an important I mean it has to be an important piece, given the practices go way back beyond you know these few decades that my culture might have stumbled on it and tried to make hay from it. So I imagine that's something that you're acutely aware of and in some of your work that you're observing and trying to support.

Esther: 19:34

Yeah, I mean, I think that in this new wave of regenerative agriculture catching on and becoming a thing, there's oftentimes a notion that this is something new that we've discovered right and so you know, I asked somebody one day, you know how, how did everybody else's farming practices get co-opted and called regenerative, but Korean natural farming? How did that like stay a thing?

Esther: 20:00

yeah, and they said well, somebody probably wrote it down yes right because a lot of these traditions are just passed down from generation to generation, with no documentation, and so then it's easy to co-opt it right, especially if the view of the day is written matters more and in these sorts of ways, absolutely has mattered more.

Esther: 20:22

And so you know, there are times when I have gone away from calling it regenerative agriculture to calling it relational agriculture, because really, what it is, it's about our relationship to the land, and if you have a strong and good relationship with the land, you're going to do right by it and in that relationship, you listen to the land, you let it tell you what it needs and what it wants, and I think that's really at the heart of it. It's about being in relationship as opposed to like I'm going to impose these regenerative practices on the land and it's going to respond Gosh, darn it. Listen to me now.

Esther: 21:03

Exactly, I'm going to impose these regenerative practices on the land and it's going to respond Gosh, darn it. Listen to me now Exactly. I'm talking the right language, which is exactly how agriculture has been done in the past.

AJ: 21:14

And we thought it was the right thing. We thought it was the right thing. This is what I'm listening to. I'm actually hearing. I'm mapping your father onto it in a way, fairly or unfairly, because as he got into gardening or at least part of it was getting into gardening and his sensitivity to it was leading to an openness.

Esther: 21:33

Yes.

AJ: 21:34

And I imagine might he have thought he was listening? Probably not In his career, as it were. Yeah, he probably didn't. He certainly thought he was doing the right thing. Obviously, absolutely he probably didn't. He certainly thought he was doing the right thing, absolutely. Probably wasn't getting his cue from the land at that stage.

Esther: 21:50

No, he worked in an office.

AJ: 21:52

With chemicals.

Esther: 21:55

Behind a computer.

AJ: 21:56

Your way into food then, given you ignored it, except for the ice cream as a kid. How did you come to it with your work today?

Esther: 22:07

Yeah, so interestingly I came to it through my work at an organization called RSF Social Finance. So I had been doing work in small business finance, but more in the context of low-income communities and just typical small business, mom-and-pop kind of businesses, and I came into food as a result of going to this nonprofit and learning about biodynamic agriculture, because this organization had its founding based on the, based on the teachings of Rudolf Steiner.

AJ: 22:45

So what was the acronym? Rsf, social Finance, that's right, yes, and what does it stand for?

Esther: 22:49

So historically it stood for Rudolf Steiner Foundation, right there we go.

Esther: 22:55

But in the later stage sort of went away from naming him in particular, just to the acronym RSF. But that's when I learned about biodynamic agriculture and yeah, and because of that underpinning we started to make investments or loans into food and beverage businesses. So that's kind of how I started getting into. It was really through that lens, so learning a bit about biodynamic agriculture, what that meant, and then you know during that time, so it was really through that lens, so learning a bit about biodynamic agriculture, what that meant, and then you know during that time, so it was probably around 2006 that we really started lending in earnest to these organic and fair trade companies.

Esther: 23:36

And I mean, I don't know if you can place yourself in that era, but that was when some of the first organic and fair trade brands started really taking off. And so we just we went with it, because there was nobody serving that sector but also it tied to our principles, and so just really started to understand, getting to understand what those brands were, what they meant, what does fair mean? Why do we care about organic, why is that important? And so it's through that exposure that I started really getting interested in it.

AJ: 24:11

At that stage had you already become interested in the land. Or was that to come?

Esther: 24:20

That was still to come.

AJ: 24:22

Okay, tell the story.

Esther: 24:26

Well, so I had done contract work in United Nations environmental programs. So I had done work around the Black Sea project, the Danube River project, and I had just taken these as pieces of contract work that I could do, not really tying myself to the subject matter. And then even in my work in community development there were lots of environmental issues that were causing some of the social problems that we were seeing.

AJ: 24:58

Indeed. Well, this is such a phenomenon, increasing phenomenon today, but still often not pieced together.

Esther: 25:04

Exactly yes. So you know, a lot of that work in community development tends to focus around jobs and housing units and all of those things are important, but nobody was really asking the questions of why are there more brownfields in low-income communities than anywhere else? Why are the rates of asthma higher in black and brown communities? You know, these are questions that are related to the environment and these questions were starting to be raised in my mind as I was working in community development and I think they just sort of lodged in the back of my brain, but I never considered it as something that was super important to me or something that I care deeply about, but I think just sort of. You know, in the course of just evolution of a person, you know, the accumulation of your experiences, we like to think we grow.

Esther: 25:56

Right, that's all we can ask.

Esther: 25:59

You know, having had that experience and then getting into the food and the organic fair trade sectors, and then when I met Sally, you know really impressed upon me the importance of soil, not just to our food but to everything else, right? So it's tied to clean water, it's tied to human health, it's tied to good air quality. I mean it's tied to human health, it's tied to good air quality, I mean it's tied to all of those things. And it was just she really has the ability to impress upon you the urgency of these needs and how they're so connected to what goes on in an agricultural system so how did you meet?

Esther: 26:40

how did we meet? She actually was a client at RSF and that's how we initially met.

AJ: 26:47

So, for her part of the journey, as I understand it, pioneering woman in STEM enterprise with her husband sells it in 2000 and then turns to philanthropy. With that, acquires the ranch that we'll come to in a moment. Paisinas, is that how you-? Paisinas, yes, Paisinas, not far from here either, the ranch that we'll come to in a moment, paisinas, is that how you Paisinas? Yes, paisinas, not far from here either, but yes, we'll come back to that. And so this is about five years after that that you come into contact.

Esther: 27:15

So I didn't really know her until maybe around 2011, 2012. And so I think at that time she was mostly focused on the ranch and trying to figure out. You know what's the thing that needs to be done on the ranch, um and then. But there were people whispering in her ear about and what about your? Money so I think this was one step where you know she could do a bit of philanthropy through this nonprofit organization, but she didn't really want to think about her money yet.

AJ: 27:51

She was passionate about the land.

Esther: 27:53

She was passionate about the land and she wanted to just hang out with farmers. That's what she wanted. She didn't really want to have to worry about the money too much, but I think for her it became a thing that she couldn't dislodge from her brain about what is your money doing?

AJ: 28:09

Because it's doing something.

Esther: 28:10

It's doing something and she started doing a few loans. So, you know, being in an agricultural region, there were some farmers near her and in her region that she was interested in helping. There were some farmers near her and in her region that she was interested in helping. So she made a few initial loans and then thought, you know, if I'm going to keep doing this, I need some better help. And so, because she was just doing it on her own and I think you know it was a good testing ground for her too, because you know her trips to the investment advisor that managed her wealth were just so soul-sucking. But she found a lot of joy in having these relationships with the farmers and then doing these financial transactions with them.

AJ: 28:59

So this, I imagine, is what summed to setting up Cienega.

Esther: 29:03

Yes. So then it was sort of I would love to be doing more of this, but I also recognized that I may not be the best person to be doing it on my own, and so a mutual friend of ours reminded her that she knew me and that she should talk with me. So that's how we started working together, wow.

AJ: 29:25

Yeah, all right, let's come back to the ranch for a moment. Then we'll come back to Celica. The ranch is an incredible story, and when you were outlining the story about the car park and the terrific reacquisition by First Nations here from a developer who at least offered it for sale, it sounds like a similar thing might have happened with the ranch.

Esther: 29:48

Absolutely so. Previous to the developer owning it, it was actually owned by a rancher who is still in relationship with Sally actually.

AJ: 29:56

Ah, lovely.

Esther: 29:57

Yes, but because of financial reasons they had to sell the ranch and they sold it to a developer and this is a 7,600 acre property and they were going to build 4200 homes, three golf courses.

AJ: 30:09

I mean, they were essentially going to build a small city, wow, on this ranch which I've seen around here, so I get the picture and, yeah, again, not to diminish people who make homes and communities there, but it was a strange feeling to see so much land turned to that, yes, from these bases, these agriculture, fertile like he was, I think it's. The website said it was possibly the most prior to european colonization, the most populated area. What one of the most popular is that right?

Esther: 30:39

yeah, yeah, this is you. Yeah, this is the ranch's website. I can tell you it's being repaired.

AJ: 30:44

I'm not in charge of the website, yeah startling, but obviously, yeah, fertile spectacular area In this case didn't go that way.

Esther: 30:54

Yeah, so actually the developer was forced to give up because the county made it financially impossible for them to continue to move forward.

AJ: 31:04

Because they wanted to save the state agriculture.

Esther: 31:07

No, there was a conflict about the main road that goes by the ranch, and so the county was requiring the developer to expand it. It's only one lane in both directions, and so they wanted the developer to four lane the highway prior to selling any homes, and that was just not going to be affordable for them so this was fortuitous it wasn't because the county wanted it to stay agricultural could have been worse, yeah but swung this way, right thing, right time it was absolutely the time, so it just happened to go for sale shortly after Sally and her husband sold their software company.

AJ: 31:51

So they acquired it. They acquired it. Then they start getting into regeneration. But I guess the base it's probably worthwhile saying the base they were working off was pretty desolate, like it had. The colonial, then industrial path of agriculture had done its thing Absolutely Almost a complete wipe out of native grasses, all on the less productive annual thing. As I understand it, first Nations gone from the area. We could go on, but it was probably enough to get the picture. So, coming back from that, ground zero started on that path meets you. The money piece comes together with it. I guess you were introduced to the ranch then. Yes, where was it at then? How was? How did it affect you?

Esther: 32:36

yeah, um, so my I can't recall exactly my first time on the ranch, but I just remember it being a very kind of spiritual experience in a way.

AJ: 32:48

Really.

Esther: 32:48

Because I mean, most people don't have access to just wide open land like that, you know, apart from national parks, but still lots of people. There's some level of development that happens within national parks and it's I don't care about the national parks.

AJ: 33:03

I'm glad they're there, but it's sort of passive it is, it's felt as passive anyway. Maybe we come to understand it more actively now with all the ways you know you talk about the forest, fertility before and so forth. Maybe it's uh changing now, but it's been sort of passive, I think, which is part of why. I don't know if it's the same here, but in aust Australia some national park estates are reducing in biodiversity.

Esther: 33:25

Right. So I just saw an Instagram post. For us I think it was maybe a state park and they were asking. They were looking for ranchers to round up stray cattle because they didn't want the cattle disturbing the land that they were so carefully preserving.

AJ: 33:40

Yes.

Esther: 33:41

And so I get what you're saying, because these lands oftentimes are preserved but they're not being actively managed.

AJ: 33:47

It's a exclusionary, it's the fence out, it is the fence out.

Esther: 33:51

Yeah, so the working land. I mean, it was like being introduced to a friend.

AJ: 33:57

Really.

Esther: 33:57

Yeah, because over the course of the years that I've been working with Sally, just seeing some of the changes that are happening on the land, it's been really beautiful to see. I have also had my moments of despair because we've gone through lots of drought in the last decade. We share these events In Western Australia, I'm sure the same, and so I have to say that I think it was two years ago. I was on the ranch and it just looked grim.

AJ: 34:26

Really.

Esther: 34:27

I mean, we had been through several years of really intense drought and the land did not look good, and this is after 20 years of regeneration.

AJ: 34:34

That's right and it's still.

Esther: 34:36

I mean we're talking about down to four inches of rain a year.

AJ: 34:42

Yep, I hear you, we know this.

Esther: 34:44

Yes, and so I was starting to feel sad for the land. And then the last two years we've had some really good rains. We've also experimented with some intensive grazing trials, and the land has really responded. So there are grasses that you know most of us have never seen before, popping up on the ranch in big patches.

AJ: 35:08

Wow, and animals. You showed us a photo before. What was it? A banana slug or something?

Esther: 35:13

Yes, I showed you a banana slug Right. So we saw a banana slug just a couple of weeks ago on the ranch.

AJ: 35:20

That would normally just be in forests.

Esther: 35:22

Normally they live in forests.

AJ: 35:24

It's out there in grassland.

Esther: 35:26

So I don't know what it was doing there, but it was there. It tells you something about what we don't know.

AJ: 35:30

what's going on still, we can appreciate the surface of it, but what's really going on under there must be really coming on, notwithstanding the surface manifestations of challenge.

Esther: 35:40

I think it's also one of those things that brings a lot of hope, because you do the right thing and you just do it, and you do it, and you do it, and sometimes you don't see any results, right, but you just keep doing it because it's the right thing to do, and then, at the right moment, the land just responds. And I think it's miraculous, it's beautiful, but it also speaks to sort of the latent potential in all of us, right, if we're nurtured in the right way, we can see some significant change.

AJ: 36:16

Isn't that the truth? In a way, this leads us perfectly, I think, back to Cienega, because you're working with other people to try and help more of this. Come on, and not just in a way that finances farmers, but that helps other investors and philanthropists. Come on, and not just in a way that finances farmers, but that helps other investors and philanthropists. Come on, catch us up on a brief. What is cienega for those who haven't listened to us before?

Esther: 36:41

but then let's expand on it, potentially by way of what's capturing your imagination at the moment so cienega is an investment fund and it's a for-profit investment fund, although I would say that our primary objective is not for-profit. Yeah, that seems abundantly clear.

AJ: 36:59

It almost makes me wonder why it's not non-profit. Well, there's a story.

Esther: 37:06

There's a whole US tax situation where you can only take a tax benefit. There's a limit to how much tax benefit you can take from philanthropy, but there's no limit to how much tax benefit you can take from losing money in a non-profit, in a for-profit business, right.

AJ: 37:24

I got it. It's interesting, yes, but that's good. I've always wondered.

Esther: 37:30

So we're an investment fund and we invest in food and farming enterprises, with the emphasis on farming. So even though we invest across the supply chain, everybody in our portfolio has to have some kind of relationship with farmers, or at least aspire to. So that's kind of where our bias lies is toward the farmer.

AJ: 37:54

And some of your experience then, over what's 10 years, nearly now. What's really inspired, what's been the shifts?

Esther: 38:02

Yeah, I think what's inspiring is the people who are leading these companies, who live in rural communities and who are in these, who are leading these companies, who live in rural communities and who are leaders, who are helping to change the minds of people who are farming quite conventionally.

Esther: 38:21

So I would say that many times the impacts you don't see in sort of the numbers of the business, like if you, if you were to look at the financial statements, it's not going to tell you this story, but the story is that changes are happening in the community as a result of these businesses, as a result of these entrepreneurs, as a result of these farmers, and I think that that's the encouraging thing and so just trying to foster more of that. I mean, they're trying to do something very different in a system that is totally rigged to go the other way, and so many times it's an uphill battle and many times the cost of doing business is a lot higher than for other businesses because they're trying to do things differently. So I think that that's an area that most people don't want to necessarily look to when they're investing. They're not looking for those things, they're looking for the financial return.

AJ: 39:17

On that note, let us shift circumstances, because that construction is ramping up and so is the skating in the quadrangle. So we'll just take a little turn, a little walk, turn down into, hopefully, quite a spot for the rest of our conversation and pick up the thread from where we were, which was around financial return. Now, you talked a bit about this in the last episode, but it's worth recounting here that you I specifically I asked you let's go metrics first. I specifically asked you how do you work metrics when your mo is all about relationship, yeah, and and listening to the land and and operating as land stewards might because that's exactly the sort of changes we're trying to bring about on the land is to act in that way. So how does it, what does it mean, to act in that way as investors and philanthropists?

AJ: 40:09

And you literally said you don't use KPIs in that way. So some of what you are observing, or have observed over the 10 years that you described earlier about those outcomes, bring us into maybe one such case. Can you put some flesh on the bones for us as to what then feeds you guys to say, yeah, right track, don't need numbers? And hey, everyone out there you don't either. Like it can work this way, right?

Esther: 40:39

Well, I'll give you a couple of examples. One is a company that we financed in Kentucky, in Kentucky, and you know I would say that if you looked on the surface of their business, there's nothing particularly regenerative about it. I don't know that anybody else would be super excited about investing in it, just on the surface of it. But they have made a commitment to local farmers and so, year by year, they are sourcing more and more to local farmers. And so, year by year, they are, they are sourcing more and more from local farmers, and this is important in that context in particular, because, while their products may not necessarily even be organic, you know, it's a state where we need to keep the farmers in business. It's a former tobacco producing state.

AJ: 41:35

Yeah, and so Wendell Berry country.

Esther: 41:37

Wendell Berry country exactly, and so you know, farmers coming off of tobacco need to figure out what they're going to farm and how they're going to do it and survive, because we want to keep those folks on the land, and so this company, by sourcing as much as they can from local farmers, they're helping them be in business, and so they're supporting this overall system that's keeping farmers on the land, hopefully right. So I think that's really that's the kind of thing that we're excited to see, and to see some leadership around 100%, because this is one of the major barriers, isn't it?

AJ: 42:13

It's interesting, then, that you don't look for some idealized state. It's just let's get working together.

Esther: 42:20

Right, I don't know that there is any idealized state, right? I think somebody once said that regeneration is a journey, it's not a destination, and I think that's right. Right, you know, there's always something the land is teaching us. Um, the land is always changing, so we can't ever be static in our approach. Right, we have to constantly evolve to our earlier conversation, constantly evolve into something. Um, so, all right.

AJ: 42:45

Yeah, rates of return. You said something at our last event which really landed and it's been a. It's been a point of conversation often since.

AJ: 42:55

Right, I'll write it by you okay, oh, you're gonna quote me, you were talking about having to make up the difference. This is a context of like seeing the loss that we're making up for on landscapes, bringing it back and and that's not an easy path, particularly with changing conditions, as you sort of outlined before. On the ranch, and you said do we have to actually have negative returns for a while to bring this back for a bit, in order to bring it back in balance? That that's an interesting question. And then you said I have a friend who says anything more than a 4% return. My question is who's getting screwed?

Esther: 43:34

Right.

AJ: 43:35

So this is obviously a really big part of it, because I remember at that event, I mean, there was another outstanding guest, dan Miller, who talked about 8% and so forth, and the way he does it is remarkable in its own right. But tell us why that's so true in your observation, what you said to us that day.

Esther: 43:54

I mean, I think it's possible to get returns like that in the work that we do. I think it's just a question of what are we prioritizing, because if I can get 8% returns and I'm not saying this is true of Dan's model- I'm just saying in general, if I can get 8% returns and I'm not saying this is true of Dan's model, I'm just saying in general, if I can get 8% returns but people aren't being paid well, but you know, sacrifices are being made on the supply chain I don't want that 8%.

AJ: 44:20

Of course.

Esther: 44:20

Right, and so if we can do right by people and the land and at least get our money back, I think that's great.

AJ: 44:29

And is that generally, then, what you're?

Esther: 44:32

I mean generally. Yes, we're going for return of capital and anything that's more than that on top of that is great.

AJ: 44:42

But not required, while all the other capitals, if you will I don't like the metaphor much but natural, social capital, whatever cultural capital, those returns are huge Absolutely, and you're satisfied that the vehicle just gets almost a break-even in a sense. But that's in a context, then, where there's a spend-down agenda for Cienega and even a sunsetting of Cienega, which is really interesting in its own right. Tell us a bit about what's happening there, and it's not far off, hey.

Esther: 45:19

It isn't um. So the in 2017, we decided that no regrets was going to take a 10-year arc and that we would spend on the foundation the philanthropic assets in 10 years is that so?

Esther: 45:25

no regrets, is the philanthropic so actually there's another entity no regrets is the umbrella, so cienega sits under no Regrets. And then we also have the philanthropy, the Globetrotter Foundation, which also sits under no Regrets, but separate entities. And so we decided that the foundation would be spent down over 10 years and that we would continue to invest through Cienega, but then at the end of the 10 year period, then we would sunset the fund, invest through Cienega, but then at the end of the 10-year period, then we would sunset the fund. So it was part of the rationale for that was we don't have time to waste. The climate situation is getting worse, it's accelerating and we need to push out this capital now.

AJ: 46:07

I've spoken to others doing the same.

Esther: 46:09

Yes, and so the urgency of what we're facing was the primary driver for doing it this way. That said, I will tell you I haven't told you this yet before, but we did get a bunch of new money into the foundation, so we extended the spend down by another five years.

AJ: 46:26

So, okay, so after 2032. Yes, but it's really relevant to. I mean, I've just come across. There's an author in Australia, jack Manning Bancroft, first nations man, who's written a book called hoodie economics. Essentially it's all about uh, you want to learn how to change systems? Talk to the ones you've shut out. We know other systems, but of work. And he's created an organization that, again, is due to sunset in 10 years, but as much, just because that's life and death in the real world, if you like. So we're going to live by our principles in every way. We're not going to empire, build and you know, etc. Exactly, we're going to die because that's part of life.

AJ: 47:08

Yeah, when I hear that, I think multiple fronts that it's very interesting and it feels like it's in keeping with something bigger and powerful and relevant. But then, yes, that there are these pragmatic points where you're faced with opportunity that's still needed as more investors and philanthropists come on, and you've observed this too. Hey, that amongst the shifts over your journey and in a relatively quick time, the nine or ten years you've been there that it's shifting quite a lot. Yes, because on the surface the juggernaut goes on and some instances where capital is not flowing, it makes you despair still. I mean I even had the Haggerty's in Western Australia put together carbon trading forecasts, land capital increase forecasts and equivalent returns based on those things wasn't enough for the investors they were talking to and that was up around the 7-8%.

AJ: 47:58

So some instances are exasperating, or some instances purely where people are trying to blaze new trails in the way you have. But it's proving difficult. How do you change mindset and how do you get comfortable with the new norm of this nature? And I guess, yeah, in people's individual contexts and what else is in their lives and so forth, but nonetheless you are observing, really in the context of things, big shifts in short periods of time. Tell us what you've seen.

Esther: 48:33

So we said that when we first started on this journey we and at least Sally knew everybody who was in regenerative ag. Really, I mean, we could wrap our arms around the movement right. We pretty much among the team, we pretty much knew almost everybody that was doing this work. Today, impossible. There's so many people popping up doing this work and some of them have been what I call sleepers. They've been doing it but been quiet about it, and then now just starting to come up.

AJ: 49:04

That's interesting, Because I see this too right as much with the farmers too.

Esther: 49:08

Yeah, absolutely.

AJ: 49:09

And other people in other areas. It's coming up everywhere in different guises now it's it.

Esther: 49:16

In some ways it's an interesting mimic of what's happening on the land right so the banana slug, there's our metaphor we didn't know, we didn't know.

Esther: 49:27

But and there's this one species of grass called Poa Sagunda that has come up just in the last two years. That has been just so mystifying but also encouraging, because this plant really hasn't been seen very much at all on the ranch and now it's just coming up, like in huge droves, and it's one of those sleeper plants. I mean, mean, it's clear that these are not new, these have old root systems. They've been there, they've just been hanging out until the right conditions.

AJ: 49:59

This is the thing. So, as the conditions ferment, there's this exponential takeoff thing going on. I wonder in that context I guess you've still got your edges in your mind, do you About oh, but it's too slow. Oh, but there's still blocks for all the words. I mean, this is some of the feeling at times back home right, for all the words and all the intent, it's still slow and hard and disenchanting. I'll hear these words at times still. So, where the edges are still, I guess, what's needed, where are you seeing the next leverage coming from? Or can you predict that? Or is it a bit in keeping with the previous answer? You can't predict it and you just keep going.

Esther: 50:39

What do you think? Yeah, we don't try to predict anything. I mean, I think one of the things that is a principle that we operate on is paying attention to emergence, because we could not have predicted what we've seen on the landscape couldn't have planned for that.

AJ: 50:54

We couldn't have planned for that we wouldn't have known that.

Esther: 50:57

Um, and I think you know, it's the same with movements and with people you don't know what's going to come, and if you try to prescribe it, you're going to be wrong. Um, and so we just try to pay attention to what's emergent what's's emergent then so? That said.

Esther: 51:12

I feel, like what has been emergent continues to be emergent, partially because I feel like even in social impact investing, or ESG investing, or whatever you want to call it, there's always been the leading edge of that. But what happens is the more people that start to come into play, the more the conversation gets dragged back into the conventional right.

Esther: 51:39

So it's like but I got to make my 8% return or whatever it is, but it's got to meet this asset class, or it doesn't make sense in my portfolio, like, why are we still trying to put these in terms of the same financial system that obviously hasn't been working right? So if we, I think there needs to be more existential questioning about the finance industry in general, about the financial industry, because yeah, because what you've just the words you were even using.

AJ: 52:14

this is what I'm hearing. There'll even be initial bursts of like, yes, we're going to do this together and then to do it more come around the table and it gets hamstrung and then starts to hedge back in, and these are some of the patterns somewhere anyway, like that. So it's really resonating what you have observed in that way. So then you pan out as much to the systems and I guess what do you do?

Esther: 52:37

what do you do? What do you do there? I mean, one of the things that I that I really feel like is that the core of the problem is really this notion of um totally unmitigated wealth creation, that somehow we feel like it's our right to make as much money as we can, and the idea that that's wealth, that's wealth.

AJ: 53:02

That's the name of the game.

Esther: 53:03

Yeah, and that's acceptable.

AJ: 53:05

And it's acceptable.

Esther: 53:06

And actually it's to be praised If you can make a lot of money. You are so smart, you have done so well, and that's the narrative, and I think a lot of us, consciously and unconsciously, have bought into that just because we grew up in this culture. So it's something that's been embedded in a way. But I think it's hard to break out of that and I think that a lot of investors, when they're analyzing the potential return of any investment, that's what's on their minds. You know, if I don't make a lot of money doing this work, nobody's going to respect me, nobody's going to believe me, nobody's going to come after me. You know that's been sometimes. The reason that some people have looked for market rate returns is because, oh, if we make market rate returns and the whole industry will come. Well, yeah, it's true.

AJ: 53:58

That is the rationale.

Esther: 53:59

That is the rationale. But then what's the rationale? I just don't understand the rationale for making market rate returns in the first place. I mean, this is a whole rant that we could go, but you know, market rate returns are determined by complete and total extraction of land and labor, and so I don't know why that's something to be so proud of so the letting go sure it's a letting go of identity and old senses, especially when you're in the same peer networks, presumably, and you're going to do something.

AJ: 54:34

That mad quote unquote.

Esther: 54:36

Yeah.

AJ: 54:37

Yet to hang on is to defeat the purpose, exactly that you I'm putting myself in this you're trying to, that you really care about, but it's to keep killing it off.

Esther: 54:51

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

AJ: 54:54

Oh, you really care about, but it's to keep killing it off. We're all in this boat, aren't we? I mean all the ways we do it, but I don't want to just pin it on investors and philanthropists. But sorry, go ahead.

Esther: 55:05

Well, one of the things that Sally said that has really stuck with me is that we spend so much time talking about in regenerative ag how farmers should change. They should change doing, they should do this, they should do that, they should change the way they think, they should change the practices they use but why don't we ever talk about why investors should change? How should investors change? We, I mean, you can't fuel a different system with the same old tools, and that's exactly what we've been trying to do.

AJ: 55:36

It's a very interesting way to put it because in many respects, the energy transition I spoke about ostensibly with Richard Heimberg, but it goes to bigger places too. I mean so much about renewables and certainly EVs. Evs might be the nice metaphor to use in the moment, because that is just, at least at the surface, just changing the fuel source, and that isn't enough. You've said, yeah, if you want a different system, and that's what is required, changing the fuel source isn't gonna do it, or at least not by itself. Maybe they can be part of it. So maybe, yeah, you're eight percents, you can get them somewhere and that's part of it. But that's still a fundamentally different way of operating. If you want the different system, if you get that far but that is increasingly abundant to more people that the intent and the clarity around that seems much more widespread than the ability to play it out quite here that's right.

Esther: 56:24

Yeah, so one of the things that I've seen as a trend in this industry is that a lot of the money going into regenerative ag is going towards land, like land purchase and aggregation and ag tech.

AJ: 56:40

To the consolidated wealth.

Esther: 56:42

Because that's where the returns are perceived to be. And so then you see all of this money going towards consolidation of land ownership. Why is that a good thing? Right. And then all this, all this money then also going to ag tech, which, honestly, when you're talking about regenerative ag, regenerative ag is a low tech. It's not to say that there's no tech that will will help them. I think there are. There are technologies that are appropriate for regenerative ag, but the amount of money that's going towards that is to the point of just creating a lot of ridiculousness. So we used to talk about the tech bubble right back in 2001 or whatever it was, and even now there might be a bit of a tech bubble going on, but I think that in ag tech, it's definitely there's a huge bubble happening. But I think that in ag tech it's definitely there's a huge bubble happening. So, but you know, the capital isn't going to where the real system changes are happening. It's going to, again, consolidation of land and the big capital and then ag tech.

AJ: 57:44

Which harks back to where we started, in a sense, just not to bring your dad back in, dad Bless, just as a metaphor of that tech view of the food system. That's what you do. That's what you do. But, yeah, the consolidation, wow, that's as much of the. I mean, that's the colonial. That's why we got the car park back in the right hands. That's just the same, same same.

AJ: 58:10

It feels like it's at a flashpoint in this way that so much land is being picked up in that way for those purposes, and there, ostensibly, is your next generation, or till collapse or whatever. That there's a moment in, there is a window of these few years where we get to choose a different trajectory if enough of us get on it. So, on that, on the broader change, change if you like you. You run programs again. We got to allude to it briefly in the in the event, but you run programs out on the ranch education programs, learning journeys, I think you call them. Yes, for investors and philanthropists who want to try and grapple with this, is there a particular experience you've observed there that you can speak to, of how transformative that can be on the one hand, but also, perhaps, how it hasn't been enough for some?

Esther: 59:00

yeah, well, one of the examples is, um, when we were talking about impact metrics and I said we know, we adamantly, categorically, do not track any impact metrics, and somebody in one of our groups just went oh my gosh, I don't have to do that.

Esther: 59:22

And I feel like, you know, the mainstream system is always telling us like these are the ways that we do things and these are the ways that they should be done. These are the ways that things have always been done and so we believe that that's how we should be doing things. And in in some cases, we've observed that simply giving permission people, simply giving people permission to think differently, is all they really need to take that next step, right? So it's like oh wait, I don't have to get a market rate return, oh wait, I don't have to worry about impact metrics. You know, but those are the things that they hear from everybody else. But then to be able to receive permission to not have to think in that way is actually very relieving, because the body language is just sort of like oh, suddenly they just start relaxing.

AJ: 1:00:17

And you've experienced this too, because you relate a story about how you didn't trust your gut in one instance and gave the money on more. Well, let's just say, yeah, check box, check the boxes, and and it went pear-shaped and you knew, you knew that, you knew.

AJ: 1:00:30

So you've had your own journey like that yeah very clearly so you can see it in others too. And the broader ranch enterprise then involves all sorts of other stuff. Yeah, so events and markets and multi-faceted enterprise, I wonder how much impact does that have on people seeing this way of business and economy it's like a village, you know, and certainly with this broader customer basis and so forth, people who run events there and whatever have their weddings there. Even Does that prove to be viscerally impacting on people seeing in a similar way, like, oh, you can do it in a localized, regionalized, grounded, connected way?

Esther: 1:01:12

I'm not sure if I'm the best person to answer that question honestly, but because you're a step removed. Yeah, yeah, yeah it's possible, but you know, I would also say that we're still figuring it out. I don't think we have it cracked to the point where anybody's saying we're gonna do it exactly like you, don't think we have it cracked to the point where anybody's Saying we're gonna do it exactly like you are.

AJ: 1:01:31

Yeah. What's interesting to me, though, is without having visited which I hope to do but to look at it, to look at the story and see what's. See, what is running just now. It's the stuff of some dreams back home that would be accomplished, mm-hmm.

Esther: 1:01:46

So. So after 20 years, it is a remarkable thing, I mean. It has definitely evolved and grown in ways that are beautiful. I mean, I think one of the things that is so powerful about the work that we do is the way that we expend our social capital. So bringing people together, convenings, getting people to meet who might not otherwise meet, I think for us, that's probably one of the most impactful ways that we influence the field, and so having the kind of facility that we do allows that to happen.

AJ: 1:02:18

Yeah, All right, as we get towards our close, maybe a little survey across some of the political domain in this country right now.

Esther: 1:02:28

You'll be wondering where I'm going.

AJ: 1:02:31

I told you I just watched Food Inc 2, the sequel that had just come out, and it's exceptional, and in it they certainly canvassed amongst the things that are really needed right now is the sort of distribution infrastructure just enabling people to function and survive and be viable, let alone flourish from there. So that again was front and centre Again. I probably almost and obviously think it's certainly true. Back home is the argument flip the subsidies around from what's backing Right. Arguably a lot of the wrong stuff wouldn't even be viable if we didn't subsidise it. The same is true for fossil fuels activities back home and around the world. So that too. And they also then talked about antitrust and also the stories of where antitrust has generated more of even that more narrowly conceived financial wealth and certainly innovation in the past here in the States. So it's very interesting this sort of idea of the mythology that more consolidation is a more recent phenomenon. It's not inherent to even an American idea of capitalism and when it's worked best. That was interesting and maps onto some of our conversation. And then, of course, policy, policy change. And right now I mean certainly back in in Australia. We look at the states and go far out. Stuff is humming in a way again some people dream of.

AJ: 1:03:54

I literally had some Aussies on on a call with USDA folk the other day about the last round of hundreds of millions that's coming into the sector. I mean, I know that there's. There are some senators, some prominent senators In Food Inc there was, was it Cory Booker and John Tester? So they were there and you know, cory Booker, coming from New Jersey, was like how did I end up attaching the food system to Silicon away? But it was seeing those communities you talked about suffering from food ailments as well, all this chronic disease stuff. I was thinking of that at the time when you were talking about it. So there's that movement happening at a committee level in there. There's Farm Bill. There seems to be a loosening then of capital in a public form, sure, and even then in public banking legislation in California. So I'm wondering what you're observing in that political terrain. Shift of policy legislation. Even that's coming on here and helping. To what degree it's helping. It still needs to be different perhaps. How are you seeing that?

Esther: 1:05:02

There's a lot of money coming through the federal government right now.

Esther: 1:05:11

And it's great in terms of really being able to shore up a lot of folks who have been underfunded for so long, and so that's been great.

Esther: 1:05:15

But I feel like it's also it caters to those groups who know how to work the system, and so the folks who have been historically excluded continue to be excluded because they don't necessarily know how to apply for or even cope with getting a government grant. So it's not as equitable as it should and could be. But you know, like money like this has never come into the sector before, so you know there's something encouraging about that. That said, you know we do work on four-year political cycles, you know, and we don't know what the next cycle is going to look like, and so I worry a little bit about a lot of buildup of organizational infrastructure that's coming as a result of all this funding. You know I'm going to grow my organization now by adding these many staff, and then when the funding stops, then what happens? So I worry a little bit about how we're going to sustain some of the growth that this funding has created, not knowing what's going to be on the horizon in the next election cycle.

AJ: 1:06:18

It's the old resilience thing, isn't it? It's like a setting up for resilience or for boom, almost inevitably, I figured, because that cultural thing is another step change. I figured that'd be some of what you'd be observing While we're on it then, what are you observing coming up in this electoral cycle? Do you feel a sense of anticipation of how it might play out, or some key things to look out for as we cross the country even, and visit different regions and sense the vibe?

Esther: 1:06:52

It's hard to say because in one theory of systems change, when one system is, when the dominant system is dying and when a new system is starting to emerge, the dying dominant system will double down and I feel like we've seen that and we're going to probably continue to see that.

Esther: 1:07:15

So in a way I feel slightly pessimistic in the sense that we'll probably see more doubling down yeah, but I also feel optimistic because that means it's on the decline and that we can look forward to a new system emerging, and so I'm just really trying to focus less on the dying and more on the emerging.

AJ: 1:07:41

Um, yeah, I feel the same way and, interestingly, whenever things thrash about in a really aggressive way, it always produces more of the counter.

Esther: 1:07:51

Absolutely.

AJ: 1:07:52

And so as it doubles down, it's only going to spur it more. One final question, sort of on those lines for you In some ways in Australia some investors and philanthropists seem to be finding it hard to come out alternative governance structures or governance structures that aren't as conventional or shored up as they're used to. I wondered, in your experience, do you just work with them and help develop them, or work with them as they are? Or indeed, is there merit or is there even experience in the idea that a metro organisation of sorts you know associational co-op type stuff might be a interface that can work that governance angle more and facilitate more of the right investment coming across? What do you think or what have you seen?

Esther: 1:08:45

lot of experimental stuff going on right now, in that, you know, there's a lot of folks talking about community-led governance and community-led decision-making, which I think is starting to become a bit of a trend, and so I feel like it's a good way to address the power dynamic that comes with funding and sort of gives the power back to the community. That said, I think there's a lot of upsides, there's a lot of pitfalls. I think we're still trying to find out what they are, and so it's good. It's the sort of fun phase of innovation where you're just trying different things and seeing if they stick and if they work. And we did this and it seemed great.

Esther: 1:09:22

But then there was this downside and I and I think I don't think anyone's necessarily cracked the nut on that yet, and I also think that it's probably going to be highly situational, like everything is that there's not going to be one answer, but that's been encouraging to see that there are foundations, that there are investment groups that are willing to cede power to community, and so I think there's just some questions about like, how can it be effectively done, you know, and how do we do it in a way that doesn't burden people who are community leaders, because that can also be a thing. So what's the right mix and the balance?

AJ: 1:10:04

It's such a thing, isn't it? It'll be a really important part of it. You mentioned a couple of times spiritual type feeling in the work over the journey. How do you think about spirituality as you sit here today?

Esther: 1:10:18

Yeah, you know, I had told you that story about listening to my gut. I had told you that story about listening to my gut, and I'm increasingly convinced that we live in a society where head knowledge is really the thing that trumps everything else, and that's why numbers become so important, that's why people latch on to impact metrics and things like that. It's all about the tangible what can I see, what can I measure, what can I logically understand in my head? But we have gone to that extent to the detriment of ignoring the other wisdom that lives in our bodies. And so I think the experience that I had about, like, not listening to my gut and then that transaction going bad, going bad, but also, I think, in the work that I've been doing with the team of the no Regrets team, has really, like, opened me up to what is, what is the wisdom that's in my body. So there's that physical wisdom, but there's also that ancestral spiritual wisdom, and so, you know, these are things that, like, we have to reattune ourselves to right because we are so used to ignoring it, and I think that once you do reattune to it, then it starts to become a lot more interesting actually, and so we we have.

Esther: 1:11:38

I have refused, not refused. I have turned down financing requests because Sally said be careful, or I don't know if that feels right and that's. You could say that that's not based on anything, but it actually is. It's based on a lot right. It's based on her wisdom, it's based on what she's feeling in her body, and I try to pay attention to that too when I'm interacting with folks, and so yeah, yeah, and there it is, coming from an elder, again back where we started with ancestral, what that means, what is in us that we've not paid much attention to?

AJ: 1:12:20

All right, esther, it's been so wonderful talking. I don't know if you know, but at the end of every episode I actually ask my guests what piece of music would we play if we could to take us out Something that's been significant in your life? Gosh Over the journey.

Esther: 1:12:33

I'm not much of a music listener. I know isn't it crazy? Well, I don't know why I'm thinking about it, but the rainbow connection.

AJ: 1:12:45

I almost feel bad for asking for someone like you, but I'm so glad I asked EP: there's, there's that line um, oh, I can't remember how it goes, but uh AJ: it's worth looking up because it is beautiful EP: yeah there's.

Esther: 1:12:57

There's a line about um, some choose to believe it, but I know they're wrong wait and see, something like that, where it's just yeah anyway.

AJ: 1:13:08

Bang. Thanks a lot, esther.

Esther: 1:13:09

Yes absolutely Thank you.

AJ: 1:13:13

That was Esther Park, CEO of Cienega Capital. For more on Esther, Paicines Ranch and Cienega Capital, see the links in the show notes. We did make it to the ranch the following week, thanks to esther and the team, and were blown away. I actually finally picked up a copy of rachel carson's silent spring the other day at the wonderful bookshop den in santa barbara. Fair to say, the spring was far from silent at Paicines - 200 plus species of birds well and truly in song.

AJ: 1:13:48

I'll put a couple of photos of our visit on the Regeneration website and, of course, more for subscribers on Patreon. And it's thanks again to you, generous supporting listeners for making this episode possible. If you happen to have been thinking about becoming a member or other supporter for a while now, why not now? Just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. With great thanks - and also for sharing the podcast as usual with friends and rating it wherever you can. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden, and at the top you heard Green Shoots by the Nomadics. My name's Anthony James from the Mojave Desert. Thanks for listening.