Stacked Keys Podcast
The idea to talk to women who are out there living and making a difference is where the Stacked Keys Podcast was born. There are women who make a difference, but never make a wave while paddling through life. Immediately I can think of a dozen or more who impacted me, but I want more. I want to talk to those I don't know and I want to share with an audience that might need the inspiration to find their own beat. This podcast is to feature women who are impressive in the work world-- or in raising a family -- or who have hobbies that can make us all be encouraged. Want to hear what makes these women passionate and get up in the morning or what they wish they had known earlier in life? Grab your keys and STOMP to your own drum.
Stacked Keys Podcast
Episode 165 -- Stephanie Affinito -- Discovering the Transformative Power of Reading and Writing: A Bookologist's Journey
Ever find solace in the pages of a compelling book or wrestled with emotions through a soulful writing session? That's what we discover and explore with our guest, Stephanie Affinito, a passionate educator, and self-proclaimed "bookologist" from upstate New York. She shares a deeply personal narrative about her relationship with books, and how they became a lifeline during her challenging teenage years. This episode is a testament to the transformative power of reading and writing, and Stephanie's unique heart rating system for books offers a fresh lens through which we can engage with literature.
As we journey through the world of books, we uncover their potential to heal, inspire, and serve as powerful tools for personal growth. We delve into the importance of diverse voices in literature and the impact of daily reading and writing on our emotional, social, and cognitive well-being. Stephanie, with her infectious zeal, opens a treasure trove of recommendations for books and journal prompts that can guide individuals through life's challenges. This episode will leave you with a renewed appreciation for literature and its role in our lives.
Amidst this bookish adventure, we don't shy away from the harsh realities educators face in our evolving educational landscape, especially in the post-COVID era. Stephanie lays bare the struggles and frustrations around literacy instruction in the digital age. But despair not, for we conclude on an optimistic note, shining a spotlight on resources and strategies to support struggling readers and foster a love for reading. So, buckle in and get ready for an enlightening journey that underscores the magic of reading and the profound importance of literacy.
You can find Stephanie on instagram @afffinitolit or her website alitlife.com
Music "STOMP" used by permission of artist Donica Knight Holdman and Jim Huff
Today I have a guest with me that I'm so excited. I cannot wait to dive deep into what she does for a living and who she is. I'd like to welcome Stephanie Afonito. I'm really so excited because a lot of what you do just is the core of one of my passions, and that's that you're really involved in books. But what I'd like to start out with is how about telling us who Stephanie is, both personally and professionally, and what would people say about Stephanie?
Speaker 2:I'd love to. So I'm Stephanie Afonito and I am a literacy teacher educator in upstate New York. So to give you a little reference, I'm closer to Canada than I am to New York City, just so everybody can kind of picture where I am. And I am pretty much obsessed with all things books and reading, notebooks and writing and everything in between. It's been my life's work. I spend my days working with teachers who want to become literacy teachers, who want to teach kids how to read, and I've kind of dove into that aspect of my life and broadened it to really working with anyone who wants to really unleash the power of reading and writing in their own lives and what it can do for them. And that's kind of my passion and I get to do it all day long, so it's a good thing.
Speaker 1:It sounds like it. I mean I can just lose myself there. How did you get involved in that? And a literacy teacher that sounds so specific. So how did you find yourself down that pathway?
Speaker 2:Well, I have always been the kind of kid who would much rather read a book than do anything else. I always had a book in my hand, a notebook in my other hand, and could just keep myself occupied for hours. I remember the very first book I ever remember reading was the Monster at the end of this book by John Stone. Do you know that one? Do you remember?
Speaker 1:it.
Speaker 2:I do, I do Wow.
Speaker 1:What a memory you have.
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember it because I really felt like Grover. For those of you that don't know, it is a book written by Grover from Sesame Street, and Grover literally talks to the reader and begs you to either turn the page or not turn the page. And as you get in that book, you are so immersed in the reading experience that you can't help but feel you are right there. You are right there with Grover, and what you're doing as a reader matters. And from that first experience, I just expected books to have that kind of impact on me. I expected to connect with a character or to relate to an idea, to learn from a concept. I just expected books to be these magical tools that I could get myself lost into. And that expectation didn't fail me. I turned to books for everything. They were my friends, they were the hobbies that I had to occupy my time.
Speaker 2:And when I was, I'm going to say, my teenage years, I became quite sick. I was out of school for a couple of years, I was in and out of hospitals and doctor's offices, and books were my lifelines. They were how I learned how to be a teenager, right stuck from a hospital bed, or what I'm supposed to wear or how I'm supposed to act, and books really became. They became my everything, from the characters becoming my friends, from the lessons that I learned to figuring out.
Speaker 2:You know what I wanted life to be like when I could actually live one, and I started pairing that with writing. So I would write about things that I was learning. I would write about the experiences that I was having, because I couldn't really do much else, and that's when I really started to understand, even as a teenager, that books could change my life. Writing could change my life, even if I really couldn't go far. They transported me in my mind and that's something anybody could do from anywhere, and so I really leaned into the power of reading to just make you feel better, to help you heal, to learn something new and just approach books and reading that way ever since.
Speaker 1:I love that and I've heard it so often. My mom was an avid, avid reader and she has told some stories where she did not get in trouble for ditching her tasks or her tours. That were major tours if she was reading, if she, she could go hide and read and her mother would never even look for her, she would just leave her alone. She sat on the porch one time and had to shell peas and they had a traveling library and they gave half of their peas to the librarian and I was like, did you not get in trouble? And she was like, absolutely not. My mom thought it was a great idea. So it's that fostering of reading and being able to transplant you to somewhere different and learn something different. What about the? Some books are controversial, Some are fun, some are educational. Have you ever found yourself loving a book that maybe everybody else doesn't?
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely. I think the best part about reading is that it is so uniquely personal. What one person can love, another person can hate. What one person finds fascinating, another person can find boring. And I think I look at books a little bit differently, I think, than most. If you look on social media, if you look online.
Speaker 2:We always talk about books in relation to how they're rated. How many stars did you give this one? Is this a five star book? And I can't stand that rating system.
Speaker 2:I actually developed my own heart rating system, because who am I to judge the quality of the book just because I liked this character, or I didn't, or I was in a mood that day and I didn't like what that character did, or, you know, my values say one thing, but this character lied in the book or did something that I wouldn't do. I have a real problem rating books like that, so I tend to rate them in hearts with how much they impacted me, how much did they touch my heart, how much did they change my thinking, broaden what I know about the world, did they inspire me to do something new or different in my own life? And I think that the reason that books can touch us so much is because they are so uniquely personal. We do have such varied reaction to them and, quite honestly, book clubs are much more fun when some of us like the book and some of us don't, because they're sharing our ideas and perspectives of what worked for you and what didn't.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't think about it that way and maybe I'll reconsider this. And it helps us. Those conversations, I think, help the book, help us to change our thinking as a result. And so there are books I've loved. There are books I didn't love that others did. There are lots of books in between, but every book has taught me something, or given me something at least for me to think about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, a lot of times that rating system I've heard in book club many people say I couldn't rate it because if it's not a four or five I put it down and I don't even finish. So I can't. You know, this is my. I only have so many hours to read, therefore I'm not going to waste my time on what doesn't draw me in. And so I mean it's hard to rate. And then you're right, you get passionate about something depending on what's going on in your life. So, as you were going through the time in your life when you weren't well and you were really drawn into books?
Speaker 1:was there one in particular you remember that really spoke to you and made you feel quote normal?
Speaker 2:Oh yes. I think the two that come to mind. The first one is very popular recently released movie of Are you there, God? It's Me Margaret.
Speaker 2:Oh, my, I love, you Love love, love that book and basically anything Judy Bloom that I could get my hands on. But I was also the kid that fell hard for Ann Martin's, the Baby Sitter's Club Back when they were graphic novels and they were the you know, the full length novels. I would just be at the bookstore the day they were released, reading it on the walk back to the car with my grandmother.
Speaker 2:At that point in my life, because I was so isolated, I wanted books that gave me friendships. I wanted to know what regular girls did, what, what you know outside of what my life looked like. I wanted to know that. You know they were thinking some of the same things I was, or, if they weren't, because they were able to get out and I wasn't, what were they doing and what do I get to plan for? So at that time I was really gravitating towards books that had characters who were about my age, who, you know, maybe looked like me and sounded like me, but were not me, because they were out in the real world and I wasn't, and I gravitated to any any of those books that I could get my hands on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, because the Are you there? God, it's Me, margaret. I was really excited about it coming back around because I can remember those were conversations that we didn't have in our home. Whether you were a well child out in the world or whatever, those just weren't talked about and we did a lot of passing books around and so you might not could have gotten it, but your friend had it. So when they finished it and it, it was almost I don't know you felt special when somebody said, hey, I'm done with it here and you could just kind of get those books all through the classroom. So it it concerns me sometimes that they now say and I don't want to get into controversy necessarily, but but when it's like you judge a book because of some of the subject matter and it's like, oh goodness, don't, we need to have discussions, I agree and you're right, that would be a whole nother episode to get in on handbooks or or those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean, if I think about when I was a kid and and even even now I can go into that after. But you know, I wish there were books back then of kids who were struggling with an illness. I wish there were books about kids who felt really socially awkward because they missed three and a half years, you know, of school and you know who's to say that someone else might say that shouldn't be in a book. That could scare my kid, that that could happen to them.
Speaker 2:And so there are so many things that people are going through in real life that I feel like we should be allowing those things that are happening in real life to show up in books. So the number one those going through them feel seen and heard and supported or validated. But then the people who are not going through those things can build perspective and empathy and understanding at the same time. I think it's so important to have as many books so there's many content pieces and as many diverse authors and as many voices as people who are willing to write their story down in the paper. I think we owe it to them to just let people choose if they want to read about it or not 100%.
Speaker 1:All right, you talked about you kind of paralleled writing with your reading. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Oh, my journals. So I call myself a notebook hoarder. You know I'm the person that has like six. I mean I have them right next to me. I have six or seven notebooks that I write in almost religiously across the days and the weeks. I have always been a writer, not a published writer always, but the kind of writer who just always was writing in the diary or writing the to-do list. I'm a big list maker and again, that started when I was really young because there wasn't really anything else that I could do. So I would just write about my days, I would write about the emotions I was feeling.
Speaker 2:It's not always positive entry, you know, in those notebooks. But I felt like the notebook gave me the safe, private space especially because I hid it as a kid to get out all the frustration I was feeling about being stuck at home, about being sick, about being scared. I had a place to put it and if I could put it on paper, I could at least get it off of my heart and my mind for a little bit and push it to the side, and I just always felt better when I did that. And then from there I brought in I would write poetry, I would write you know bucket lists of things that I wanted to do, and that has just grown even more as an adult.
Speaker 2:Now I write my morning pages, julia Cameron style, just about every morning. I've got a gratitude journal, a book notebook. I'm the person that always feels like I need that piece of paper, I need that pencil gliding across the page. It just makes me feel better in a couple of different ways, and there's a lot of research behind that too, of how, engaging in daily reading and writing, there's emotional, social, cognitive, so many benefits, and so I really use writing as a tool. I joke that it's cheaper than therapy and now, you know, as an educator, I write books for teachers, so it's also a tool for me to think and to outline and to plan and to grow bigger, writing pieces from that. My notebook is a treasured part of my day.
Speaker 1:That's really cool. And by having so many different notebooks you actually know how you're thinking when you enter in one notebook, so you don't have all the jumbled thoughts, you're kind of zeroed in on your purpose. So is that intentional?
Speaker 2:It's intentional in a couple of different ways. I think some people do better to just have one notebook where everything goes in it and it's just the one place that they can go. I have a very organized, over organized kind of way or kind of living, and so I need my separate compartments. I need the gratitude journal to be here, I need the morning pages where I'm often venting and talking about what's on my mind and heart in a different place so that I can hide it. And then maybe my work notebook is a completely separate notebook, because I like to keep things separate for those different reasons.
Speaker 2:Some I like to keep close to me, some I like to be able to hide. It just works better for me to separate it by what I want to accomplish, but for others, just one notebook where everything goes works for them. I think that's the great thing about reading and writing we get to choose. We don't have to read books that we don't want to read as adults. We don't have to write in ways that we don't want to write, and we get to choose whatever seems to work for each of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there are a couple of things she said that struck me One. The last one was we don't have to read it as an adult if we don't want to. I've been around teens a whole lot and was shaperoning and that kind of thing, and they'd always have this summer reading and they always hated it. They just hated it. So I said, you know what, bring me your book, I'll read it. We go on a choir tour with the church or whatever, and I'd read with them. I'd read whatever they were reading and it's almost like it was painful until somebody else joined them in on reading it and then you could commiserate with them or go oh, but this was really, and sometimes you would be rooming with people that reminded you of the characters of some of these books and you could laugh about that. So it just brings out so many emotions. Even if it's not a task you want to tackle, it can still just bring out a lot of discussion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, reading is social. Reading is technically independent because we're reading it in most cases on our own. But if you think about most adults, when they're done with a book, they usually tell somebody about it, or they share it, or they pay it forward, or they have a book club or a book buddy, or they enter their book on Goodreads or stamp a picture on social media, and it's that social connection that strengthens our experience of reading even more.
Speaker 1:That's something that you say that because I really hadn't thought of it in that context, but it certainly does apply. And what kind of makes it interesting is, whatever the Netflix series is at the moment, that's like everybody and so there isn't much to talk about. So you're not sharing something that somebody doesn't immediately go. Oh yeah, I know, I know. So this is a little bit more challenging and I like that you talked about a book journal. So is that like where you're reading a book or is it like, hey, I want to read this. I have a list in here. I mean, what's your book journal?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'd love to talk about my book journal. So, as I mentioned, I don't like star rating scales, and instead I like to think about books and how they've impacted me, how they've changed me, how they've sparked some sort of inspired action in me, and so I like to track that. As a notebook lover, I love to write everything down, and so I have a book journal that I created that's designed to help me get out of my reading life what I want it to, and so I track things like my heart rating, but I also track the quotes that I loved from the book. I will track the themes of the book that I think are important themes for me to think about in my own life. I will jot down things I might write about in relation to the book. I can head to my notebook, or I'll jot down things that I want to do or try or visit or be from the book.
Speaker 2:So, for example, one of the books I read recently oh my gosh, I couldn't love this book any more. It was a wonderful book and I read it at just the right time. I needed it. It's called the Magic of Lemon Drop Pie by Rachel Linden. If it's new to you, you need to go put it on hold at the library or go to your independent bookstore and grab it. It's a book that I just immediately connected with and got into. I could feel the character. The character was going through some sort of life transformation and trying to figure out what was coming next for her, and that's where I find myself at this moment in my life as well, and so learning about her journey was helping me on mine. What was she doing to figure out her next steps? Could I do that? And the book sparked so much for me that I like to track those things in the journal. But, for example, even reading it, I ended up making my very first homemade gluten-free lemon meringue pie and pie crust because I was so inspired by the book. I would have never done that without this. I learned about edible flowers. I did not realize there was such an industry around edible flowers, so I actually went and bought myself an edible flower kit and I started growing my own flowers. I visited a lavender farm because I was so inspired by the organic farm that she was at.
Speaker 2:So the book just talked to me inside the pages and then inspired me to do things that I never would have thought of or would have done unless I read that book. And this book happened to be a chance encounter. I saw it, I loved it and I went with it. But I usually do try to read books that will fill something in my life for me. So if I'm going through something hard, I try to read books about characters that are going through that. If I need inspiration, then I go to certain books. So my book journal helps me capture why I'm reading the book, the things that I'm pulling from it and then the fun parts of well, what did I do differently in my life as a result of that book? And I just love having that record because, well, that's just the kind of person I am. I love reading and writing.
Speaker 1:So and that kind of takes you back to where you said it's cheaper than therapy.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And read those lessons and not have to reread the whole book. But yet you may be a rereader of a book too, so it can kind of direct you. But I kind of thought while you were talking do you sometimes have to stop and go to another book, another journal that you've got, Because there's a bucket list that you need to go add to your bucket list? So you have to put that journal down and run to the other journal.
Speaker 2:So you've pegged me already. Yes, I tend to go from the book journal to the dreaming journal, and then a lot of times when I'm reading, I will go to my morning page journal, which is the journal where I just put anything that's on my mind. That's kind of my safe, private, secure journal, and so I do often have that journal close by when I'm reading. As well as my quote journal, I have another journal of the quotes that I really love and want to share, and so I will often hop between notebooks during and after reading as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that can be a full-time activity. So when you're coming up with these books or you have these themes that you want to address, one of the things I missed about leaving high school was the reading list. You'd wind up having this reading list that you could get. And then, of course, there are the New York Times bestseller lists, but that is the thing I miss the most of somebody saying here try these 20. So how do you generate the books for, especially when you're looking for something specific, because a lot of times you don't know what the character is going to be or do until you get in it.
Speaker 2:So how do you find your list? That's such a great question. Well, as you mentioned, I first start with me. What is it that I need or want right now? And sometimes that might be I just want to read a book that everybody else is reading so I can talk about it. Or sometimes it might be I want a book to help me figure out how to parent teenagers, or whatever the topic is. So I'll start with me and I'll just ask myself what kind of book do I need right now? What do I want to read about? What do I want support with?
Speaker 2:And then comes the fun part, which is finding the books. And so I just talk to everyone. I love just a random Google search a book about X. I go to Goodreads and I see what others are reading. I go to some of my favorite book bloggers and I will try to look up some of their book lists. I ask my librarian, I ask my bookseller and I think at this point, because I actually I like to call myself a bookologist we didn't go there yet but a bookologist, which is just someone who loves reading and writing so much that they can't help but recommend books and notebooks to other people.
Speaker 2:And so I've been doing this kind of work and reading so much for a long time that I just kind of intuitively know where to go or what lists to look up or what books to recommend. But I'm not afraid to just put in a little bit of legwork online or call somebody up and say, hey, what do you think about this book? And I've done that for so long that I've started doing that for other people. That's been my real passion project. I like to recommend books based on what people are going through, and I say books and notebooks can help us grow through what we go through. And that's what I learned long ago when I was 13 and 14 and 15.
Speaker 2:And recently, some of those health challenges that I had as a kid they have reemerged more recently and so I find myself diving back into books and notebooks like I did then, but in a slightly different way, and realizing that, recommending books based on a particular need or a particular challenge, I can help people cut down that search time and just get right to the book they need when they need it. And that's really where my work has shifted and morphed and changed to now. I love suggesting books based on a particular topic, whether it's for an adult or for a child, and then pairing them with journal prompts that I know worked for me, that I think could probably work for them too. So I just get my, I roll up my sleeves, I hop in the internet, I go to the library and I've started to really document that journey of mine so that I can invite others into it too.
Speaker 1:That's fabulous and I mean what a little niche that you just I mean I'm actually a little bit speechless because I love that, I love the idea, I can see it working, I can see it being able to dive deep into that. So is that what the bookologist is?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so you know, I was trying to come up with a name of what I do and I thought of bookology, because I love books and I love notebooks, and that commonality is books. But what I found is that when you mix books and notebooks with mindful practices and creativity, like that's when the magic happens, when you can really harness the power of books and notebooks to make life better in whatever way you're looking for. That's what I wanted to do, and so if I say I study bookology which, yes, is my made up term to just describe what I do, when I get to do what I love, I call myself a bookologist, which is someone who loves books and notebooks so much that they spend their time being really intentional and recommending those kinds of experiences to other people.
Speaker 1:Okay, this sounds like the ideal job, but you also have to package it and sell it and a lot of times so much of that, people get free, so they go. Why should I pay for that? Why should I? So how do you make somebody see the benefit of being true to themselves in that reading journey and in that journaling journey? How do you bring that point to them to make the investment?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think the best thing that I could do is just live that kind of life myself and show others how my reading and writing has impacted me, has made my life better, has made me try to grow edible flowers and make gluten-free pie crusts, and just make life more fun.
Speaker 2:And then I also try to share the research we have so much research out there on the power of reading and writing that reading just six minutes a day can bring us physical, emotional and cognitive effects that people probably wouldn't quite associate with reading. That writing just a couple of times a month can actually do things like reduce inflammation in the body and calm depression. That doing these practices especially if we bring in a little bit of mindfulness it gives us these health benefits. That when you add on reading the right books at the right time and the right notebook prompts at the right time, can just bring us so much more clarity, happiness, calmness than we may have realized. And if you're already a book or a reading person, it doesn't take too much to convince you to want to do more of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's that same if you love it and you just haven't made time for it.
Speaker 2:it's a way to make time for it, yeah it gives them the purpose, the rationale, the oh so it isn't just a frivolous thing and I'm not being selfish, this is actually. You know, 10 minutes of reading a day can actually slow my heart rate and calm my nervous system. That I can get behind. And I think with something like reading and writing especially today when everything is just go, go, go and get everything done, people can feel like sitting down in a quiet space with just a book or just a notebook. It's that just of. Could I be doing something productive right now? Should I be washing the dishes? Should I be, you know, doing something that is gonna help me accomplish something off of my to-do list?
Speaker 2:It's really hard for a lot of adults to make the time to read and write because they don't understand the value behind it beyond. I really like to do it, but when you pair the I like to read and I like to write with well, here's all of the health benefits and the wellness benefits and the creative benefits of why you should do this work. That's when they can get behind it and realize that it's essential to find time in our day to do it.
Speaker 1:Oh, I like that very much and it's so true, and we usually do the things that we really like and want to do, so it's almost like you're given permission by adding the science to it as well. So what about audiobooks? How do you feel about them? Versus putting the book in your hand, versus the electronic, because it's different feel.
Speaker 2:It is. It is, and I will admit I am old school all the way. I want to feel that book in my hands. I want to smell the paper. I want to turn the pages and put my bookmark inside of it. I want to feel the paper in my notebook and how the pen glides across the page. That's just a personal preference. For me, that works really well.
Speaker 2:There is research behind why that kind of old fashioned writing really works well for our brains as well. But reading is reading and writing is writing, and so if you're reading it in a book or in an e-book, or listening in your ears, it's all reading. Whether you're writing paper or pencil or you're typing or you have a stylus and you're writing, that's all writing too. So it all counts Everywhere it all counts. It's just what is the personal preference for you. I will always pick an old school book, then I'll go to an e-book.
Speaker 2:I have trouble listening to audiobooks. I can listen to podcasts and multitask and be just fine, but for me, listening to the book, I have to really focus on it, which means I can't do much else, and so, for audiobooks, I have a hard time with any book that isn't a memoir or a book that the author is narrating themselves and isn't a very deep fiction story, because I need to be able to flip back and forth and see the pages that I've tabbed or highlighted or something. So I think it all counts for everybody. It's just what is personal to you, what do you love, and then just do that, no matter if someone thinks it counts or not, because it all does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, it's interesting. We travel a lot and have done long drives and even when the kids were little we would put stories on, so that that was the long drive entertainment. So I can listen all day long, all night long. But my middle child, she's out like a light when she starts hearing a story.
Speaker 1:So she cannot drive and listen to a story. But it's funny how you get your brain wired. And in speaking of how you're wired and what your preferences are, there was a book that I came across a long time ago. We live in a military town and have a lot of officers that come to the school here in Montgomery and one of the first things that they're assigned to they have a tremendous amount of reading in their nine weeks and they are assigned a book called how to Read a Book and it is a fabulous book and it goes over the different types of readings. So what are you reading for? Because then you'll skim or you'll do this way. So you'll have different methods that you apply depending on the purpose. So do you approach your reading with a purpose like that as well, to where maybe you are skimming quickly, or whether you're sitting down with a pen because you are going to highlight? Do you kind of approach reading in that method?
Speaker 2:I do, although I am a creature of habit. So every book I read I tend to approach the same way. So, I already mentioned, I approach every book as if it has something to teach me or to share with me or to show me, and I always read with this little pencil pouch by my side that has sticky notes and gel pens and highlighters and bookmarks. But it does vary based on what my purpose is. I think for fiction reading I annotate less, I might put a sticky note, I track quotes that I love. I'm usually reading pretty closely because I really want to get into the heart of the story. Where nonfiction, I'll let myself be a little bit more relaxed. Maybe I read it from beginning to end, maybe I just skim to the parts that I love. But if I'm completely honest, I really do approach every book wanting to read every word in the exact order that it was placed in, because I have such respect for the authors and the process and all that goes into bringing that book to me that I try to give each book my utmost attention, even if my purpose may vary, because I do love to just collect those nuggets from all of them. So I'd say I give myself a little more slack with nonfiction, but I usually do have all of my fun little reading supplies on the side so that I can make it an experience and get the most out of it Doesn't mean I have to. I have read books where I haven't made one annotation because nothing spoke to me, and that's OK too. Other books will have 35 post-its sticking out from the top, like the Magic of Lemon Drop Pie, that one that really impacted me, and so I just see what the book shares with me, I just see what the book has in it and I just respond and vary what I'm doing in the moment based on how I feel about the content.
Speaker 1:So when you have a problem to solve, you're more likely to go to a book than to a friend first I am.
Speaker 2:I will go to a book before I go to a friend, before I go to Google, certainly before I go to something like WebMD, if I'm trying to figure out something I do. Books are my first line of defense, always have been. I think always will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my husband had a pretty serious lung disease and we had to go to Mayo. And this is so crazy. They do all these appointments and everything. And then they said OK, you can go to the library and read up on everything that we've given you. I don't know that I've ever been more excited. I mean we went into this library and you had all these books that you had no business holding or reading. I mean, they were way over your head really. But just to touch them and read them and look and go. Ok, I don't understand that. So I've got to look up this. But it was just this whole that you just fell into and I loved it. I was almost regretful we didn't have more time in the library and I'm sure a lot of people were like, eh, I'm good, we'll go get a coffee, but it's just walking into a place that has books for specific purposes, especially problem solving, can be so satisfying.
Speaker 2:It can, and not only satisfying but very effective. Bibliotherapy has been around for a really long time and actually started way, way, way back in hospitals, where people were recommending books for veterans or people who were sick, to help them learn about what was going on and then, in some cases, give them fiction stories to be able to relate to. So, I would say, getting more and more common. I actually had a neurologist appointment just a couple of weeks ago and I was thrilled. I knew I picked the right doctor because, rather than getting out her prescription pad, she gave me a list of books and in that packet there was all the things that she treated. So it could have been migraines, it could have been whatever. It was chronic pain, which is what mine was, and she had about five or six books listed for each of the things that she treated and said here go read up on these, empower yourself by knowing what's going on, and then you'll be in more of a mindset to be able to do something about it.
Speaker 2:And the idea that books can be used for that I mean. My goodness, can you imagine the power that you feel when you realize you're not alone, that there are other people going through it. Now you are armed with information where you can make good choices. I loved it. I was beyond thrilled and I wish I wish more doctors more. Everything did that, and that's actually why I do the work that I do. Every week I have a new theme, a new something, and I offer books and writing ideas around that theme, and some of them are fun Like books to read when you're hungry or books that will send you to the stationary store but others are more serious, like books to read when you get a diagnosis, or books that explore eating disorders. I think we can have a really big continuum with the things that books can help us grow through, but I think it's so important that people know these are free tools that you can get from your library to just make yourself more empowered and feel better in the process.
Speaker 1:That is wonderful. So if I asked you your definition, what's your definition of strong? I feel like it's going to come through that same line of thought that you just went over. So what would your definition of strong be through the literary world? Of strong, I'm not sure I understand Just in general, just strength, just whether it's strength and being strength and knowledge, strength and community. So what would your definition, seeing it through that lens?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for me, strong or strength especially just because of my personality and the loves that I have is just feeling empowered, feeling that, ok, I'm going through this thing or I'm going through this challenge and it's really hard, but I got my own back, I can figure this out. I don't need someone to come rescue me, I could figure out how to rescue myself. That doesn't mean alone. That means I know where to turn for support. I can educate myself so that I know when people are making good choices for me and I know when they're not, and I can make that decision. So I think strength is not being afraid to find out what you don't know, and for me that means going to books and going to sources and then just feeling like you can make those decisions, whether they're hard or not, and not being afraid to do that work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it can be tremendous. Work Absolutely, and work that isn't a one and done. Yeah, as you were talking about the journaling, then you know you go back and you probably go off a different direction of something that you may have read 100 times.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, and sometimes you need that. So I used to get really upset, like when my morning pages let's say, one morning I wrote about something that was on my mind, that was frustrating me, and then five days later I'm still writing about this thing. That's frustrating me, and I used to get upset with myself like, well, you just get over it already. Well, you just let this thing go. And as I get more involved in journaling as a practice and learning about somatic journaling and really journaling from how your body feels, sometimes you need to be obsessed on that thing and you need to keep going until you're ready to let it go. And so the journal really has to be a place of no judgment. That's what I say. Those pages don't judge you, they won't evaluate you, they're very quiet. It's a wonderful. It's a wonderful shoulder to you know. Talk to, because it's a page of a book that won't give you any flack back, no matter what you write about.
Speaker 1:Well, what's interesting is you go back and read it and it may, or those words might, jump off of the page and suddenly you see it differently or clearly. So maybe that's the point.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, your education? It just seems to me that a lot of what you're ending up doing you've put together and kind of figured out the pathway in which to use it. What's your education? What's your background? How did you even know to head down this path?
Speaker 2:Well, I knew I always wanted to be a teacher. I knew that I always wanted to be around books and reading, and so I started out as an elementary education teacher. But then I knew I wanted to only do reading and writing. I didn't want math, I didn't want science, I just wanted to read and write. So I went back to school to become a literacy specialist and just work with kids all day long who needed extra support reading and writing. I wanted all kids to love reading and writing and to see how much it could help them, like I did. And so I spent a couple of years doing just that working to help kids develop not only their skills to be able to read but their desire and their motivation and the intention behind it. And I just kept going. You know, as I got more into the work and to the research, I just realized there was more I didn't know A lifelong learner, you know down to the core. So I ended up going all the way through up to my PhD in reading and just haven't stopped that research piece. So I have the PhD in reading and how to support kids and how to support teachers.
Speaker 2:But it's really the combination of my personal life. That kind of drew me to where I am now, so that my education gave me that formal background of how do we learn to read? Why does it matter? What are the skills we need to do it successfully. My own experience was giving me the why and the how in order for reading and writing to make a difference in my own life.
Speaker 2:And as I grew and I started using books in even more ways, right, it went from as a kid to just get through a really tough experience to then you know reading about how you're supposed to act, you know, and how do you have a successful marriage when your first marriage, or the tool, the books became parenting tools to try to figure out how to, how to raise kids.
Speaker 2:And now again turning to books to figure out some challenging portions of my life. Right now, it just they were going side by side. Right, I was learning how to teach kids how to read and how to invite them into this world of reading and writing, at the same time having a personal life, having challenges in it, and they just kind of converged. And that's when I realized I love my work. I'm still an educator, working with teachers and kids, but I realized that what I have figured out how to use reading and writing to make life better I think others could benefit from, and so I've tried to be more public in that work, sharing the books, having my podcast where I talk about books on a particular theme. So I think it's a combination of the formal academic schooling with what life was handing to me and I blended them together to get to where I am at this moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you find it frustrating sometimes. Do you hit a brick wall at times where you know that there could be a breakthrough if you had just five more minutes, or do you get frustrated?
Speaker 2:Everybody gets frustrated right.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think you know education it's.
Speaker 2:There's a lot going on in the educational world right now.
Speaker 2:There is a lot of responsibility that teachers have, there is a lot of politicalness that's going on in the education space right now, and so I think it's really easy to get frustrated, because you know we go into the profession wanting to help kids, whether that's in reading and writing or whatever that content area is, and then you get there and you realize that there's a lot more than just helping kids that you're trying to navigate.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, it can be frustrating to know if I just had a little bit more time, if the school just had a little bit more money to buy books that were right for this kid, if there was just a little bit more space to work with teachers and help them develop the knowledge they needed in order to make life in their classroom a little bit easier. I think there's, you know, there's definitely frustration there, because we all just want to do the best for kids and sometimes there are things in our way that make it harder to do that and that's where the frustration sets in. But we just you know it's like Dory I love it, just keeps swimming right, just keep doing what we're doing to help kids and keep doing what we're doing to really share at least for me the role of reading and writing and figure out what that looks like, especially post COVID, when everything has changed in the reading and writing world and in the schooling world too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you say it's changed in the reading and writing world, how?
Speaker 2:Well, I think in a couple of different ways. As an industry, you know, a lot of the world realized how amazing ebooks are, or audio books are, because we couldn't physically get to libraries or to publishers.
Speaker 2:I think we better understood the value of technology and connecting us together, and you know, now I'm in more virtual book clubs with people from all over the country than I am in my in-person book clubs. In terms of school, you know we had kids who are out of school for, in some cases, quite some time, and that changed how they learn to read, how they learn to write, the amount of experiences they had doing so, and so now, in some cases, we're trying to fill gaps that are now there because we didn't have the kids in school for as long as we needed to, as well as the positives, which are, we have figured out ways to better engage students from home, virtually, with digital tools. So there's those challenges, and then we've also learned a lot that have helped, I think, in terms of literacy instruction and reading and writing too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see some of that. But when you're working with a child, you know the kindergarteners, the first graders that were having to go virtual. We almost didn't have tools in place to teach that reading skill Because that's so one-on-one in the classroom. So you said you were working with teachers. Is that part of what you do Of kind of help them develop a skill set to maybe teach them more difficult? I mean, there's some kids that come in and they just know how to read and they know how to comprehend and they it just comes so natural for them. And then there's others that struggle and then there comes a point where they'll quit if the struggle and the age you know kind of continue. So is that part of what you do in helping teachers?
Speaker 2:It is what I do, it is the best part of what I do. So even before COVID, I teach in an online program, and so I've always been working with teachers online and knowing the kinds of tools that are available to support teachers and students. Before that was a thing, before it was something that the world had to do, and so my passion, my love in terms of working with teachers is taking those kids who are experiencing difficulty for whatever reason, and figuring out why, and then building the knowledge of the teacher, of the teachers of the school, to figure out what's better supports we could put in place, and, because I was in an online program, that was a really easy shift for us to.
Speaker 2:COVID. I spent most of COVID working with teachers across the country to figure out how to teach kindergarten, first grade and second grade students how to read online, and that's challenging, but we did it. We use a lot of different technology tools. We figured out how to, you know, get access to digital books, how we can put letter tiles on the screen and move them around. On Zoom, you just got really creative to give students as much support from home as they could. But that's that is the area that I love. The kids who are having trouble. That's who I want to work with, because if we can't help them learn how to read and feel good about it, they'll never get to the stuff that I'm so jazzed about today, which is reading and writing can actually change your life. We have to get them to see that, and that's what I love to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see how that can be. You get so drawn in that you can't stop Because it builds on itself, and then at the same time can it really be disheartening, can it really break your heart at times when you kind of hit a brick wall.
Speaker 2:Oh, of course, because these are real little people. These are real little people and you can see their frustration or you can see their feelings about themselves in relation to how they're reading. And the thing I think that causes the most frustration is that you know when a child is experiencing difficulty learning to read it rarely is something within sight of them that's causing it. It's either the lack of books, the lack of resources, the lack of a small enough class size and kindergarten or first grade to give them the support they need, the lack of materials. That's the heartbreaking piece.
Speaker 2:And what kids don't often realize is that when they have difficulty reading, they personalize it I'm not a good reader, I can't read, I'm not good at this, and that's not true. It just means they didn't get what they needed when they needed it, and that's not the fault of anybody, it's the fault of a pandemic, it's the fault of a whole bunch of things. But what breaks my heart is seeing kids personalize and really take on that I'm just not good at reading, it's just not my thing. When that is totally not the case, it is not something rarely is it something within the child, and it's just. We need to figure out what that key is for that particular kid, or what the right book is. I always tell kids don't worry, books are patient, we will find the right one for you. That will magically, you know wake you up to how wonderful reading is.
Speaker 1:I like that. Books are patient, you know it's, but it takes somebody willing to devote what what you're doing. So if I asked you to complete the sentence that you were put on this earth, to what do you think that would be your completing statement If I were?
Speaker 2:put on. I was put on this earth to oh gosh. So many things pop into my mind related to personal or related to work. I think there are both ways. Okay, I would say, if you know personally, everything is about my family. So I was put on this earth to just grow a loving, happy family. Right, my kids are my everything of three kids.
Speaker 2:Professionally, I would say I was put on this earth to help people harness the power of reading and writing to make their life better in so many different ways.
Speaker 2:As I think about how my career is unfolded from classroom teacher to a reading teacher, and then to a reading coach and now to a professor those strands that are there, are always. That always comes back to books and reading and writing and notebooks and how it can make our lives better, and so my work has focused for a long time on the how for kids and now is shifting to the how and the why for adults, so that we can keep this circle going right. Because I have so many parents say what's the number one thing that I can do to help my kid learn how to read? And I say read, you read. Show them the book instead of the smartphone, sit next to them and read side by side. That model does everything, and so I feel like if I can help adults uncover that power, then we're just doing even more for the next generation. That complements my work side by side at the schools and the universities, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and I know that as we were raising our kids, we would read above their head. We would sit in the hall we have three and we would sit in the hall so that everybody could hear, and we would read books that the youngest one didn't quite get, but it was interesting and the way dad was sitting there reading, that was the joy part. And then they evolve in reading themselves and in reading at night. So there are so many ways that reading can impact. You talked about your, your own children, your family. Did you transition all of those wants and desires of reading to your kids? Depends on the kid, they're all different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they are different and you know, personalities are different. I was a more quiet child and I gravitated towards those quiet activities and, quite frankly, I had to gravitate towards those quiet activities and that was also, you know, X number of years ago where I didn't have social media and I didn't have some of the competing the things competing for my attention that today's kids do. So, I would say, out of the three, they have waxed and waned in their interest in reading over the years. I definitely had them hooked as kids, as little kids, but as middle school, as high school, as some of them going to adulthood. I can see they have different phases where they'll turn to reading at certain times.
Speaker 2:Two out of the three turned to writing a lot and use writing to document. But it's interesting because I'll say to them, like you know what your mom does, Can't you just pick up a read? Can't you just pick up a book and read with me for a few minutes? But they are definitely, they're purposeful in their reading, but they don't have that same oh my gosh, I have to read today Attitude that I do, they used to. But I can definitely see that changing as they grow and their personalities take shape, and so I just say, well, I just have to funnel my energy into the next round of kids that I get to work with and keep on going Well and do you share that with parents sometimes of hey, don't worry about it, it has its ebb and flow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I'll show them. It has the ebb and flow and it doesn't have to look one way. So I was at I can't remember where I made the comment, but I had said you know, we don't always do bedtime reading. And they thought well wait, you're the expert, you're telling us not to read a bed. I'm saying no. I have three kids who are two years old and younger. Sometimes we read it nap time, sometimes we read at breakfast.
Speaker 2:Right, whatever it looks like for you, the way that works in your family and your schedule and your personality, to bring books and reading in.
Speaker 2:There really is no one right way and no one fails if their kid liked to read, versus they didn't like to read or they don't read the way you do. It's just giving them the opportunity to know that it exists and it's there when they need it, when they want it. And you know, growing up is hard and a lot of kids will abandon it during that middle high school grade period, especially because, unfortunately, in schools we often don't let them choose what to read about. So reading becomes work, it becomes hard, it becomes a task, with questions and essays, and it's something that they don't tend to want to do. But if, given the chance to choose books and to read books only that they want to read like adults do, we often see adults will get back into reading after college when they can choose what they want to read about again. So it definitely comes in waves and it ebbs and flows and it looks different for everybody and that is totally okay.
Speaker 1:You kind of have a theme that goes through a lot of what you say and it's permission. You know of having permission to read, because as an adult you get to that point of the feeling a little guilty if you're doing that instead of doing maybe something else. But I think I saw a post on your Instagram about being in the car line and couldn't wait to be in the car line to have a quiet reading.
Speaker 2:Yes, that was just a couple of days ago. I showed up to my sons and my daughter's tennis practice about 45 minutes early just to sit in the car with my book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's part of it, it's find those moments, find those times, and then you know, we all indulge in something, so at some points, and so that's not a bad indulgence, no, and it was absolutely wonderful. It probably filled you back up to do the next thing that you had to do. So if you had the opportunity to share with somebody something pulling from your wheelhouse of knowledge, what would you choose to share with them?
Speaker 2:I would say. Well, you know, beyond the message that I've been sharing the whole time, which is that books and reading really can hold power in our lives and can make our lives better in whichever way we want them to be, there's really three things you need to think about in order to bring that to life. There's our habits, our hearts and our communities. It's the framework that I developed around building a literate identity, and those three things, if you just ponder them for a few minutes, can help make all the difference in the world. So for habits, where might you just find 10 minutes to read or 10 minutes to write? Would you get up 10 minutes earlier, go to bed 10 minutes later, put the phone down for 10 minutes, pick up your kids 10 minutes earlier? If we think about our habits, what's just one place where you could add 10 minutes a day? Because it only takes six minutes in order for a lot of those health benefits to kick in, calming your nervous system down with a book. Number two, once you've decided when and where you might put it, think about your reading or your writing heart. You don't have to read or write about anything you don't want to. You can pick whatever book you want to read. You can write about whatever you want to write, without judgment, and so don't don't shit on yourself. You know, as people like to say, I should read this book because it was a Pulitzer Prize winner or it's really popular right now. No, no, no, just read whatever book that is calling to you.
Speaker 2:And then, number three, think about your community. What or who could you connect with in order to share what you're doing? Because a community will give us a sense of FOMO, right, that fear of missing out. I know when a couple of friends will post what they're reading on Goodreads and I haven't done it in a couple of days. That spurs me to action because I'm excited to see what books they've read. So think about who could you reach out to or where could you share your reading. Maybe you're like me and you snap a picture of the book you're reading in your car and you put it on social media. Maybe you text a friend, or you find someone you know, a colleague, at lunch. That strengthens the bonds and the connections that we have with the book and with other people, which then fuels you to keep that habit going and start the process all over again. So habits, hearts and communities. Just give each one of those a little thought and that will strengthen your reading and writing life overall.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love those and they're doable. It's pretty ma'am sure it can get complex. I'm sure you can dive in pretty deep, but you don't have to just start off with.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right and I guarantee. What usually happens is, if you just do that six minutes a day, you end up being hooked in that book and you end up finding more or putting the phone down for longer or just ignoring the dishes in the laundry. You know that'll wait.
Speaker 1:They'll be there and they'll happen again and again.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Well, as you think about getting older, as you think about your career changing, as you think about your kids growing up and getting involved in other things and evolving into who they're going to be, what do you look forward to?
Speaker 2:Oh, what do I look forward to? I look forward to figuring it all out. Figuring it all out, but seeing how it unfolds. You know, I was the kind of kid I was the kind of person I still am. I'm trying really hard not to control everything because, especially as a kid, when you go through something challenging like that that you have zero control over, I find I just spent the rest of my life wanting to control absolutely everything. I did not want to be sidelined or surprised by something. Finding control and trying to control everything doesn't really do you much good in a lot of different ways. So I think what I'm looking forward to is, tongue-in-cheek, figuring it all out, but just seeing what unfolds and being able to know that whatever does unfold right, if we go back to that definition of strong and of strength is that we'll figure it out and trying to enjoy every step of the way, no matter what life throws at us.
Speaker 1:So you may mention of control and earlier you talked about. You go to books to figure out how to fix things or how to learn of things. Can you remember a book that you use in working on control?
Speaker 2:You mean my control issues?
Speaker 1:What was the problem with your control issues? But yeah, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:If I could recommend one book that really has helped me in this area, it is Marie Forleo's book Everything is Figureoutable. Just stop worrying about it, stop controlling and just know that, whatever the heck happens, everything's figureoutable. You will figure out what to do when the time comes with a little bit of help, especially with that book, and so that book has really helped me to realize that okay, whatever happens, we will figure it out. I always have in the past, so I always will in the future. It may not be the outcome I was hoping for, but that's what I've been trying to learn to let go of of the outcome that I expected, especially now I'm kind of re-dealing with some health issues that is impacting a lot of things in my life. So, instead of staying with the well, this is how it was supposed to be, it's well, maybe this, maybe this is another alternative, and I'll just figure it out. So if you haven't read Everything is Figureoutable, I highly recommend it.
Speaker 1:That's great. I have two books that I need to go find.
Speaker 2:Yes, you do Both of them.
Speaker 1:Oh, stephanie, we've talked so much, and I could go on and on and on, and I just feel like we're going to have to revisit, but is there anything in particular that we did not hit on today that you want to make sure that we do cover?
Speaker 2:You know, we really did talk about a lot, from my personal journeys to books and reading to my professional one.
Speaker 2:I think we covered it at all. I think I would just love to end by saying to people that the reading and writing that we think we don't have time for, or we think is selfish, or we think we should be doing something else, can bring us more health and well-being and happiness than we might realize. And if there's something inkling inside of you of I wish I had time to read but I don't, or I wish I did that kind of writing, but no, I'm too busy, or that's not for me, that you just consider honoring it a bit and give yourself 10 minutes a day, which is not selfish in any realm of the word and just consider, well, what if I did that? What if I did that? What could come of it? How might I feel better? How might I enjoy things more? How could that help me show up better to the other places? If you're a reader or a writer and that's calling to you, this is your permission slip to give it a shot and see where it can take you.
Speaker 1:I love that, because so frequently we're hearing here's a challenge, here's this, and you say here's your permission slip. That sounds so much more engaging than like oh, thank you, I'll take that. Then wait, I have to figure out a challenge. The challenge is there, but you have permission to do it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to send you. I actually have a permission slip that I share with people in my community that says I give myself permission to dive deep into whatever I want to dive deep about or just dip my toe in. So I'll have to send that to you so that you can share it. Oh, you will, that'd be fabulous.
Speaker 1:As we close out, I want to ask you if you had a superpower, you had it for 24 hours. You can use it personally or professionally. What would it be? How would you use it and why would you choose it?
Speaker 2:This is so ironic that you are asking me this, because my youngest son and I were on a walk the other day talking about superpowers.
Speaker 2:That's so funny that you asked, I think and he was surprised that this was my superpower. But if I could, I would choose the superpower of being invisible for 24 hours. The reason I would is because I think I know. I don't think I know in my own personality. I'm trying constantly to make sense of what's going on. It's that control issue again. I'm trying to think, well, why did this person do this and why did they say that? And what's going to happen if I do this?
Speaker 2:I think if I had some invisibility I could better see the perspectives of other people. I tend to get in my own way and I can't always back down from what I think or feel, and long enough in order to really understand where someone else might be coming from. That's why I love books. They force me, they force me to do that. I think if I had an invisibility I could just get a window inside of others' people's thinking and know what they're going through, to give myself some more perspective and then just develop my own empathy for the people around me rather than jumping to conclusions. I think invisibility for 24 hours. I might pick stretchy arms or something on another day to get more stuff done, but for me. I think I would need that in my life right now to give me some better perspective.
Speaker 1:I love that. It's kind of funny. As you were talking about it, I thought, well, you've kind of were invisible in all these stories. As you were growing up, you were the invisible person watching from the sideline or above of what was happening in those characters, because those characters became your friends.
Speaker 2:I didn't even think of it like that. You're right, I love it yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, how do people get in touch with you?
Speaker 2:Oh wonderful, they can find me at my website. It's a Lit Life so short for literacy. Alitlifecom and my podcast that I have weekly is called Get Literate and that's where we talk about all things books and reading, writing and notebooks and everything possible in between. On social media, I'm at Affonito Lit, which I imagine you'll put in the show notes because Affonito is really hard to say and figure out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will.
Speaker 2:But it's the same on all the social platforms. But I would say alitlifecom and that'll link you to all the places.
Speaker 1:OK, and you do some coaching and some work like that. How do people find it there as well, or is there a particular offering that you are involved in at this point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can find out everything there. I've got a couple of different ways that I work with others around reading and writing. I do have a Patreon community as part of my podcast and so that I do extra weekly episodes. We have book clubs and writing circles and sometimes we get creative and do junk journaling and all sorts of fun things together. But then I do offer coaching and what I call personal book apothecaries. So it's where you tell me what's on your mind and what you're going through, and I recommend very specific books that I think would be perfect based on all I've read, along with some journal prompts, and people can either just run with the apothecary or we can have sessions where we talk about those books as well. And I do offer a couple of courses and workshops from time to time on bookology my new made up term as well as bibliotherapy and journaling as well.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. This has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Oh, I've had such a wonderful time. Thank you.