Living Fully, Dying Gracefully: Insights from Ashley Oppon

In this episode, my guest is Ashley Oppon, host of "Dine with the Divine." Ashley, a registered nurse from New Jersey, describes her nursing job as her "muggle job," revealing her love for theology and religion. Growing up Catholic, Ashley's curiosity led her to explore various faiths, finding something meaningful in each. This exploration shaped her understanding of human belief systems and the cultural significance of faith worldwide.

Ashley's professional journey in oncology for the past seven years brought her face-to-face with death regularly. Her multicultural background, with roots in West Africa, exposed her to vibrant funeral traditions, contrasting with the more reserved American approach to death. These experiences sparked her interest in understanding and supporting others through the grieving process.

Working as a nurse, Ashley witnessed diverse reactions to death, from acceptance to fear. Her exposure to hospice care deepened her conviction that death should be approached with acceptance and understanding, rather than fear. This led her to explore the role of death doulas, eventually inspiring her to provide support for those facing end-of-life decisions.

Ashley emphasizes the importance of living without regrets and embracing life fully. She encourages people to address unresolved issues and live authentically, drawing from her belief that acknowledging death's inevitability can lead to a more fulfilling life.

In a society focused on prolonging life, Ashley advocates for acknowledging death as a natural part of existence. She believes that accepting death's reality can alleviate the fear surrounding it and facilitate healthier grieving processes. By embracing the transient nature of life, Ashley hopes to empower individuals to live with purpose and find peace in the face of mortality.

https://www.instagram.com/dinewiththedivine

https://www.sankofahealingsanctuary.com/

https://www.instagram.com/sankofahs/

https://good-grief.org/

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ashley: Anything can happen at any time, unfortunately. Understanding and accepting that this is just a reality of the life that we live is going to, in the long run, help our grieving process. 

[00:00:10] Jill: Welcome back to seeing death clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach here on my show.

[00:00:17] I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying grief and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

[00:00:36] My guest this episode is Ashley Oppon, host of Dine with the Divine podcast. Ashley is a registered nurse and a death doula whose curiosity led her to explore various faiths, shaping her understanding of human beliefs and cultural traditions worldwide. Ashley discusses the rich funeral traditions of her West African heritage.

[00:00:58] and contrasts them with American practices. Her multicultural background sparked an interest in supporting others through the grieving process, leading her to become a death doula. As a death doula, she emphasizes the importance of living fully and without regrets, advocating for a healthy acceptance of death as a natural part of life.

[00:01:19] Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome Ashley to the podcast. I've been looking forward to this because we're connected through social media and I know you live in New Jersey as well. It's always exciting to meet other death doulas in New Jersey. So thank you for coming on today. No problem.

[00:01:35] I'm excited to chat. This will be nice. Awesome. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself? If you're from New Jersey originally, I don't know anything about even your religious background that kind of tells people who you are. 

[00:01:47] Ashley: Sure I've lived in new jersey since I was one. I am a registered nurse by let's always say that's my muggle job That's what I do day to day And I also I grew up Catholic, but I have kind of a flurry of beliefs, like a lot of different beliefs.

[00:02:03] I used to want to be a theology teacher or a religion teacher. That was like my thing. And then I found out I'd probably have to get a PhD. And I was like, that sounds really hard and it's not going to be fun. So I was like, I'll just do it on the side and just research religion for fun, which is strange to most people, but it's fine.

[00:02:20] Yeah. So. Try to think of, I don't know. I feel like when we go forward, I'll tell you more about it. It's so hard to tell people about me or about yourself because you're like, I don't know what's important and what's not. Like my favorite color is purple. I don't know. 

[00:02:33] Jill: Favorite colors are very important.

[00:02:36] Totally. But it's interesting because I as well grew up Catholic further south in Jersey. So I'm from the Vineland area. And I also wanted to go to school to be a theology teacher. And my grandmother was like, what will you do with that? You can't do anything with that. And I was like, I don't know. It just sounds really interesting.

[00:02:54] I want to learn about all the different religions. So I also have just on my own studied as many as I can in various ways, right? Whether it's reading out of books, whether it's trying to learn from teachers. I guess you'd say really nail. I am actually Buddhist. I did take my refuge vow, but that was after many years of studying Buddhism and going to a meditation center and really spending so much time learning about it.

[00:03:21] We meet on Monday nights and I haven't gone in a while just because life is crazy. But one Monday night we were doing a reading and it basically was saying that it doesn't matter what path you choose, but the important thing is actually choosing a path and sticking to it because that's when you're going to get the most benefit.

[00:03:37] And I was like, all right, all right, I guess it's time for me to choose a path. But I still love to learn about different religions and partially because I feel like. There's so much that's tied with people's spiritual beliefs. I mean, holidays, right? Your beliefs about death and dying, like, just how you live your life, I don't know, I find it really fascinating, and especially because I don't really for sure know what I believe, so I like learning about everybody else's beliefs.

[00:04:08] Ashley: I feel very similar. I feel that way too. When I was younger, I really always used to say I dip my toe in everything for like, a week, I was like, maybe I'll be Buddhist. And then I read about it, like, this is cool, but I don't know. And then I'd be like, maybe I'm going to be, I don't know, like a Rastafarian this week.

[00:04:24] Like I used to do that when I was like 15. So it was fine, but I would read about different religions and I'd be like, well, this makes sense to me. Maybe this doesn't. And I was able to find something in every single one that made sense to me. I was like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. I totally get why people believe this.

[00:04:40] Or I totally understand why people have faith in this. And that was always the fascinating part to me too. It's like there's something in everything that makes sense for humans. And the reason we have it is because it resonated with someone somewhere during time. They're like, Well, this happened to this guy.

[00:04:57] So this is why it rains. And I was like, actually, maybe, and I feel that also it's like in different places around the world, people immerse themselves in the culture and their faith. I feel like a lot more than we do in the West. I also have a big imagination still, and it didn't go away from when I was a child.

[00:05:15] So I think I always kind of yearned for that. I loved how. The culture and the faith was so present in these other places. And I love to learn about all these other places because it's just interesting. Like you said, it influences a lot of their lives. A lot of people's lives are influenced by the way that they're living through their faith.

[00:05:32] So to understand even the negative parts of it. You need to understand their faith. You need to understand why these people believe this or why they feel that they have to do these things to then have more empathy for people, even when those people are doing things that we don't want them to do, or we think are negative.

[00:05:50] It creates a lot more empathy in the world when you can take time to kind of look and understand those things. 

[00:05:55] Jill: Definitely. The more that we can understand other people, even like you said, We don't always have to like what they're doing, but the more that we can take time to learn and understand different religions, different cultures, different races, right, all of those things, the more empathy we're going to have.

[00:06:11] If we keep ourselves in our little bubble, then. We lead to fear and anger and all these other more me versus them type of feelings, because that's one thing too. Whenever I look at different cultures and different religions, there's actually a lot more similarities than there is differences. If we take away some of the language, right?

[00:06:34] Some of the words that people use, but when you look at the core of them, a lot of them, the basis of it is love, loving ourselves, loving other people. Right. If we could focus on that, probably do a lot better in the world, but unfortunately being humans with our little puny brains, or I guess we have big brains, but we don't use that much of them.

[00:06:55] We focus too much on the parts of our religions that are very like word heavy. Let's take these two. And just focus on that, but we're going to ignore the rest of it. The rest of the message, I don't understand it, but that's partially why I've tried to learn so much about other religions, because I think growing up Catholic, there was parts of the religion I really liked.

[00:07:16] And then there was parts that I was like, but this doesn't make sense. And then when I would try to ask questions. I remember one time asking a nun a question in CCD 

[00:07:26] Ashley: and 

[00:07:26] Jill: she just kept saying, well, you just have to have faith. And I was like, but I have questions though. And she's like, no, you don't ask questions.

[00:07:33] You just have faith. And I was like, well, that's kind of baloney. I don't know if I could go along with this, but I understand the place of faith as well in that, especially when we think of things like death and dying, if it's a traumatic death, if it's a child, if it's something that there's just no answer why.

[00:07:50] There's no answer. It just, it's because it happens to people and it sucks and it's terrible. And so I could see how then having faith in that, well, they're in a better place, that I'll see them again, can just be one of the only things that could relieve suffering for people. And so I also understand that part of it.

[00:08:09] So not trying to judge religions. 

[00:08:11] Ashley: Yeah. 

[00:08:12] Jill: It's just things that I observe and I don't know. I love to talk about it. Yeah, same, right? This is the good stuff to talk about. And 

[00:08:20] Ashley: so you said you're a nurse, what type of a nurse are you? So now for the past seven years, I've been working in oncology. Okay. So I've been working with people with cancer and other stuff too, but mostly cancer.

[00:08:32] Yeah. Do you work in a hospital or a doctor? I work in an infusion center. So most of my day is giving people chemotherapy and other types of therapies. depending on what's going on with them. Wow. 

[00:08:46] Jill: Yeah, because I don't come from nursing even though I am a death doula now And I talk to people that are going through different therapies and treatments and whatnot, but that is definitely not my background So sometimes there's a lot for me to learn when it comes to that type of stuff.

[00:09:02] Fine Yeah a lot for me to learn. Yeah There's just so much to learn and that's fine, too. And so you are a death doula. That's correct. Yeah 

[00:09:11] Ashley: Yes. 

[00:09:12] Jill: Okay. And so what drew you to doing the training to become a Death Dueler? 

[00:09:17] Ashley: There's a couple different avenues with this that I always see really influence me.

[00:09:21] I'll start at the very beginning. My cultural background, my dad is from West Africa. My dad is from Ghana and my mom's from England, but her father's from Jamaica. So especially growing up with, uh, with my dad, we always went to a lot of parties and funerals. And one thing about Our, well, a lot of people in West Africa, it's very similar and I can only speak for the West cause that's the one I know the best.

[00:09:45] But, uh, in our tribe, our funerals last for a week, like straight week. And they're bigger than weddings. They're so celebratory. There's different outfits, there's food, there's everything. Like literally it's like a wedding celebration. Now, not always. Obviously, if it's a child, it's way more somber, but if it's an adult, if it's somebody who died of old age, or even if it's somebody who died when they were, like, for instance, my dad's brother had sickle cell, so he died when he was around 40.

[00:10:18] Somebody like that, who's kind of lived a bit, and they kind of were expecting it because he had sickle cell, and they knew he wouldn't live too long. But it's a big, big, Big celebration. There's a day where literally all you do is eat and sit around and talk about the person. Everybody sits, usually they separate the circles.

[00:10:35] It's a male circle and a female circle. Sometimes they do a group. It depends. And everybody tells a story about the person and it could be from any point in their lives. It could be a fun story. It could be a sad story. It could be this time. This person pissed you off. Like it could be like any kind of story, but everybody talks and everybody says something.

[00:10:53] There are these where we just. and we just dance. Most of the songs are about God and the person going up to heaven and the person doing better there and them being relieved from suffering. And then we have the funeral days, and the day of the actual funeral is kind of the peak. biggest day of the grieving.

[00:11:11] So in our culture, and I know there's a couple of their cultures too, you can hire basically like whalers. I don't know if that's the word they use, but I always call it that. You can hire people to whale. They're usually women, they're usually older, and they will come Wail and cry and scream and then usually either family and the community is doing the same thing So like everyone's crying and screaming.

[00:11:33] It's a lot. I've been with this person wasn't from my tribe They were actually from liberia But I went to a liberian funeral when I was younger with somebody we worked with when I worked at a department store Had passed away and we went and his family was there and there was a lot and a couple of my friends who are just American were like, this is too much.

[00:11:50] And I'm like, I know it's going to be fine. I was like, I know you guys, they're like, this is, they're really upset. I was like, I know it's okay. Like this is how it is. I was always used to seeing that. And it, after you're seeing it since the age of five, it's not really jarring anymore. I just know this is going to happen.

[00:12:05] And also it doesn't happen so much in the United States, but in actually in Ghana, there's kind of like a parade, almost like jazz parades. We do like from the funeral home to the cemetery, if it's walking distance, a lot of people have seen on the internet, the paw board bearers kind of dancing. That's something that we do.

[00:12:23] Yeah. So they dance with a casket. You pay them actually make pretty decent money that good. There's usually drummers, people drum all the way to the greatest site and you dance. And you sing and you get there and then you like kind of get all your grief out. You will, you scream, you cry during a funeral.

[00:12:41] And that whole day is like the grief day after that. So I'm used to seeing these very dramatic expressions of grief my whole life. And that's what I was used to. Then when I was. In high school, my choir teacher died. I actually wasn't in choir, I was in band, but all of my friends were in choir. So I went with them to the funeral because she was a really nice woman.

[00:13:01] That was the first time I had been to an American funeral. And I was so confused. Everyone was so quiet and I was like, are you guys, and like, no, this is like a terrible thought to think about. I was like, are these people like even sad? Cause I'm used to everyone screaming and falling on the ground. I've seen a woman throw herself on the casket as they were rolling it down.

[00:13:21] So I'm like, is everybody okay? What's going on here? And then I found out that this was the way in America. Everybody's more, not all everybody. I shouldn't say that. But. A lot of the time, people are way more quiet and reserved when it comes to like, death. So I was just confused, somewhat fascinated that like, this is, I'm like, How are these people getting this out?

[00:13:44] How are you expressing your grief if you don't do it now? Now you have to go to work in two days. Are you going to be okay? You haven't cried. You haven't screamed. You haven't lost your mind and pulled out your hair. So that was my first experience of being like, What is it? What is the grief process?

[00:14:00] Cause before that I hadn't known anybody outside my family or family friends or by community in that way that had died. So I was like, what is it like here? What's going on? And I kind of learned more about it. And everyone was like, yeah, it's way more chill than that. And I was like, this is really interesting.

[00:14:16] So then as my life went on, I became a nurse and first I was a nursing assistant before when I was in school and I got kind of familiar with death. I worked on a floor where people died a lot. So that it wasn't I realized it wasn't scary to me. It never really was scary to me either. I guess I grew up Catholic because of my dad.

[00:14:34] He was very go to church and stuff, but he always made me very, there's no reason to be afraid of it. That was kind of his view. And I think it's a very, a very big view of my community. You don't need to be afraid of death. Number one, it's going to happen. And number two, it's better. My dad would always be like, it's better on the other side.

[00:14:51] It's better wherever you go. So I was always like, okay, there's no reason to be. fear it. It's nothing to be feared. You can be sad. Of course, you're going to be sad. It's okay, but don't fear it. So I never was like fearful of it. Then when I became a nurse and everything, because I was a nursing assistant, I saw a lot of death.

[00:15:06] Then I became a nurse. I worked in hospice for a little while. And when I worked there, it really like opened me up to be like, huh. Seeing how people process death was also really interesting. I only had one person Who was like, hellbent on not dying. And it was like, yeah, it was like, I really don't want to die.

[00:15:28] And to me, honestly, that was jarring. I'm used to people processing and like, okay, I'm ready. But this person was like, no, no, no, no, no. And when they were in such crisis, Because they were going to die. And having those experiences with these people really made me think. I, and it made me look at life like, damn, just do whatever you want.

[00:15:48] Everybody it's short, it's finite, do whatever you want. And it really made me think, I don't want anybody to be afraid. I, I understand why people are, but this is so sad. This is something that's happening right now. And this person, and well, I can say this here because people who are listening to this will understand.

[00:16:06] This person cannot enjoy their last moments because they're so anxious about the fact that it's going to happen. And then when I realized that, I was working hospice and then I stopped working hospice. I was like, I want to find a way to help people in my life to not have that anxiety about it. Or to lessen it, at least.

[00:16:24] Help them get ready, and help them enjoy the moments before it happens. Because they should enjoy their whole life, and not just be anxious the whole time that they're gonna die. Unfortunately, it's gonna happen. So, that kind of led me into looking into, in what capacity could I help people with this? And then, I learned about Death Duelists.

[00:16:40] And I was like, what? This is a thing? That's so cool! I started reading about it, and then I 

[00:16:44] Jill: went from there. I didn't realize that people grieved the way that you explained, right? I grew up Catholic in South Jersey. It was very quiet, very somber. If you made too much noise, it was almost like disrespectful, you know?

[00:16:57] I didn't know that anything else existed. I was teaching a job training program and One of my students, unfortunately, died of a drug overdose. And so we went to his funeral. My co chef, who has been to a lot of different funerals and events in different cultures. We went to this student's funeral and his family was from Puerto Rico.

[00:17:18] And we walk in. And as soon as you walked in, it was loud. There was just a whole lot of noise. And I'm walking in and I'm going, okay, what's going on here? Jonathan's like, Oh, you've never been to one of these, have you? And I was like, no. He's like, You're going to see, and there was literally people throwing themselves on the coffin.

[00:17:37] Multiple people sobbing and wailing, and there was children and adults and everybody was crying and screaming, I'm going, are they going to knock it over? And he's like, probably not, but it's possible because the students were doing it. It wasn't just the family. And I was just like, wow, this is kind of amazing.

[00:17:57] I was a little envious. But there was the permission to be that expressive and just so different than what I was used to. So that was the first time I'd ever experienced anything like that. And I was like, all right, I actually kind of wish. My funerals were more like this because I always feel this like you hold it all in.

[00:18:20] There's no expressing it. There's no crying and sobbing out loud and making a lot of noise and there's definitely no climbing on the casket and hugging the person. It was a very different experience. And so then I started looking into other cultures and what they did and realizing that even some of my family is from Ireland, Ireland, Scotland kind of area that in Ireland, they used to do that.

[00:18:43] They would hire women that would whale. And I was like, Oh, so we somehow in America, a lot of us just. I got away from that some for some reason. So I have a little envy for that ability to openly, 'cause I personally don't even know if I would feel comfortable doing that because it's just mm-hmm, so different than what I'm used to.

[00:19:05] That the discomfort I would feel would kind of shut me down. Right. I'm learning to work with some of those things, but for many years, I didn't feel comfortable crying at all, ever, for any reason, because of shame and guilt that people, especially being a young woman, oh, you cry all the time. Why are you crying over everything?

[00:19:24] And working in kitchens, there was no way. I was going to cry in front of anybody. So I turned it off, which is not healthy, but it is what it is. I'm working on it now. When I cry at something, my kids will be like, why are you crying over this movie? I'm like, because I want to, because I'm sad because the person died in the movie.

[00:19:41] It made me sad. I know that. But yes, it's interesting. You had the opposite experience where you were so used to the one. And then when you came to something like mine, it was like, what's wrong with these people? Why are they not going out there and expressing themselves? Yeah, and I think that that's part of the work that I'm trying to do as well as a death doula is bring back some more of those practices, those rituals, those ways of expressing grief in a way.

[00:20:13] Cause like you said, people hold it all in and then it's like, okay, now we go back to work tomorrow and pretend this never happened. This doesn't seem to me like that's a healthy way to process it. Right. Cause you're still going to hold it in your body. It's not like it just goes away. And with the whaling, cause that's the thing too, is I think sometimes People see it as the crying and the wailing as just like a vocalizing of your grease.

[00:20:37] But I believe, too, that there's something that when you cry and when you wail, it vibrates in your body. And that vibration can kind of help to release these things. It's not just the noise, right? It's also the way that your body vibrates through the noise. Which is why chanting and singing and wailing and all these things are so important to humans.

[00:20:57] Because It's also about the way that it makes your body feel, not just the noises that we're making. But yeah, that's just kind of my belief from reading and learning and thinking and doing all those things about it. And now, do you do this work as a business or is it mainly just for supporting friends and family?

[00:21:15] How does your death doula work show up in your life? 

[00:21:18] Ashley: I do it as a business. I'm doing it so much lately, but I do support people no matter what. their situation is. So if someone needs support, I don't care. If they don't, they're like, well, I don't have money to pay you. I'm like, okay, it's not a big deal.

[00:21:35] Tell me whatever you need. Like I, cause not everybody needs the same level of help. Some people are just like, well, I don't know what steps to take. For instance, they had a lady who Was interested in medical aid in dying and she's like, I just don't know what to do. What are the first steps for me to do?

[00:21:53] So I went over and I explained it and I helped her find forms and things like that. I was like, these are all the steps you have to do. If this is a choice you want to make. That's all I needed to do for her. Everything else she had done, she had like gotten her will ready. She pretty much was sorting out her things herself.

[00:22:07] I said, cool. So it just depends on what people need. But yeah, mostly I have been supporting people with whichever thing they need help with right now. 

[00:22:16] Jill: Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of the way it's been with my business too, is it is a business, right? So I will eventually need to figure out how to make it more financially stable, right?

[00:22:27] But for right now, I'm doing okay. It's fine. A lot of my work has been answering questions and helping people. And I have a Facebook group where I post questions every day to get people thinking and talking and A lot of going out into the community and educating, doing seminars and workshops with people to try to normalize this a little bit.

[00:22:49] This is why I started the podcast. I normally normalize thinking about death and talking about death. And I don't believe that there's ever going to be anything to completely alleviate our fear of death and dying, no matter how much we work on these things. But I do think that most of us could probably live through it.

[00:23:08] more present if we were able to be okay with the fact that we're going to die. Cause like you mentioned that person that even at the end was biting tooth and nail, did not want to die probably because they feel like they didn't live. And so there's that point where you're like, wait, but I can't die yet.

[00:23:25] I didn't live my life. Well, maybe we should be living our lives while we're here. And like you said, do the things that we want to do. And of course. That doesn't mean go out and hurt other people, but it's more that there's the things that we stop ourselves from doing. Usually because we're afraid of what people are going to say about us.

[00:23:45] We're afraid of the judgment, potentially even from family, right? Family doesn't always like it when we break free of what they think we should be. And so a lot of us live in these lives that aren't really ours. They're a version of our life that is somebody else's and then we get to the end and then it's like, ah shit Now I can't live my life.

[00:24:06] Like now I want to because I understand that i'm dying Well now we can't really do it, but we can Make those changes now and we can live our lives now so that when we get to the end, we can be a little bit more ready and at peace with it and say, okay, it's time. But again, ask me if I'm for some reason dying at 46, ask me if I really feel that way.

[00:24:29] I don't know. I, of course, even in my head, I see myself in my nineties. I see myself as an old lady. It's a much easier for me to imagine being okay with death when I'm older. But I also realize I can't control it. It could happen next year. I hope not. I try to take care of myself, but who knows. 

[00:24:47] Ashley: I know. I 

[00:24:47] Jill: feel 

[00:24:48] Ashley: that same way.

[00:24:48] And people, I got this, somebody was talking to somebody about all this stuff and they're like, Oh, so you don't care if you die. If you die tomorrow, it would be like, I don't want to die. Nobody wants to die. For the most part, that's not a thing. It's very interesting, especially, I'm sure you get these kinds of things too, like, when you're a death doula, or if you talk about death a lot, people think that you're just, oh, well, you just don't care about people dying in your life.

[00:25:12] That's not the truth. If people close to me die, I'm gonna grieve, and I'll grieve hard. I was talking about this the other day. My sister just got a dog. I'm obsessed with this dog and I was crying just thinking about the fact that in 15 years she might die. I was in the shower like she's gonna die. I'm gonna miss her so like in 15 years probably she's in pretty good shape.

[00:25:32] But like of course I'm gonna grieve. It's not about being sad or not being sad or grieving or not grieving. We're all gonna grieve our people. The people we care about. The people we love and who love us. But it's like learning and being comfortable with death. It's saying that when it comes time, I'm going to grieve in a healthy way.

[00:25:49] And I want to understand that this is unfortunately a part of life. And like you said, I'm going to enjoy my life while I'm here and I'm going to enjoy my people while I'm here with them. And speaking of things, people not doing. A lot of people, my thing is always, I don't want myself or people I know to die with regrets.

[00:26:08] And especially when it comes to other people. Oh, so and so, I don't speak to this person anymore and I always wanted to apologize to them. Okay, well apologize, like just do it. It doesn't matter because at the end, death is a great equalizer. It's gonna happen and it's over and there's no more. Apologizing or trying to get across what you want to get across.

[00:26:29] Even if that person doesn't receive it, just do it for you. Don't do it for them. Live in a way where you feel like I have done everything I could do to make things good for me. I've done everything I could do to, to live well and to be there for the people I want to be there for that kind of thing. I think it's.

[00:26:47] Like you said, people who are afraid of dying, it's usually because they didn't live, they didn't get to do what they wanted to do. And now they're like, I can't believe I did that. And it stinks. And I don't want that for anybody. That's a terrible feeling doing work and meeting people like this. It's seeing that there's a lot of people who don't tie up loose ends for whatever reason and we need to just do it.

[00:27:10] And other thing is you made me think of something too. I feel like we live, our ancestors, right? Like no matter where you're from, a thousand years ago, death was ever present, right? We didn't wash our hands. We didn't know what germs were. Women were dying from having their first kid. It could be a completely normal child, but then they would die from some random bacteria that got on them.

[00:27:30] Like Ever present death was a normal thing. So not that they were more comfortable with it, but it was like, all right, this could happen any minute. But now it's like, we have so many wonderful, good life saving measures that we are constantly trying to keep people alive. So when they do that, like when people are dying or when they die, we're so devastated.

[00:27:51] We're like, I can't believe this person's dying. And it's like, well, Yeah, fortunately, of course, I'm talking about people who I see this a lot in my job, people who are older, you might 70, 80 year old grandma is dying. And they're like, I can't believe she's gonna die. And I'm like, yeah, she's 86.

[00:28:11] Unfortunately, she's gonna die. And I think because we live in that culture, which on the one hand is really, really great that we have all these things that people are living longer, but we also are now removed from it. That we're all so frightened that it's going to happen. But this has been a reality since time immemorial.

[00:28:26] We have to kind of remember that. And like you said, anything can happen anytime. We don't want it to. We don't want young people to die. We don't want people in their 40s, 50s to die, because that's not supposed to happen. But anything can happen anytime, unfortunately. So us not saying it's okay, but understanding and accepting that this is just a reality of the life that we live is going to, in the long run, help our grieving process.

[00:28:51] I think. At least. I would agree. 

[00:28:53] Jill: I think you're right that it would help with the grieving process if we would just really understand that we are going to die one day. And I come back to religion. Most religions, they would recommend that you think about the fact that you're going to die every day. It's.

[00:29:09] Part of their spiritual practices. It's like really remembering that one day you're gonna die now some of its spun in the Idea of remember you're gonna die and you're gonna go to hell if you're a bad person Some of it is also remembering every day that one day you're not gonna be here helps you to Really be present in this moment, especially When we don't know when that day is.

[00:29:34] And again, I'm 45 now. Not that long ago, that was the average life expectancy of a woman. Cause like you mentioned, we died in childbirth. We didn't wash hands. Like, so in the past, there's a good chance I would be dead already or close to it. And it seems now like 45 is too young, it's too young to die. I can't die at 45.

[00:29:54] But yeah, I've talked to people too that grandma's in their 80s. And it's like, I can't believe she's dying. And yeah, and part of me wants to be like, really? I

[00:30:05] mean, how old did you think she was gonna live to be? But I know even when my grandmother died, she was 94. And I wouldn't say that I was in that place of Oh, I can't believe she's dying. But there was definitely part of me that Just really felt like she was always going to be here. Yes. So when it was happening, there was that little bit of like, oh, this is actually really happening now.

[00:30:26] My being was realizing, my brain could have realized it a long time ago that she was probably going to die in her 90s, because again, how old could she really live to be? Yeah. There was still part of my being that was like, oh, she's really going to be gone. But then also with the same time. I don't really feel like she's gone.

[00:30:44] She's been dead now for, let's see, my son's 13. So almost 13 years since she died. And I don't really feel like she's gone. And I know that sounds so weird to people to say it. Like, I miss having tea with her and talking to her and those types of things. There's that human connection. But the part of me that really felt connected to her is not grieving, is not sad, doesn't miss her, because I don't feel like she's gone.

[00:31:11] And I didn't expect that. It's one of those things where sometimes I'm like, Oh, well, that's actually kind of nice. But of course, I have her necklace on, I wear it almost every day. So I keep her close to my heart. And maybe there's some of that is that There's part of me that every day keeps myself connected to her.

[00:31:27] I do actions. I think about her. I have stuff of hers all over my house. Almost everywhere I look, there'll be something that'll make me think of grandma. So maybe that's part of it, 

[00:31:37] Ashley: but I don't know. First of all, I love that because I don't believe that people ever leave us. Like the people that we love, I don't believe they ever leave.

[00:31:44] Of course, I understand exactly what you mean. I think about my sister's dog. Like not only my sister's dog makes me sad, but like other people in my life, I think about them. dying and I get really upset. My parents, my sister, who's like my best friend and all these other people. I was actually telling my sister this the other day.

[00:32:00] I was like, I'm not trying, I was just like in a very emotional mood. I was like, we will always be together no matter what, whether I'm here or I'm not here, whether she's here or she's not here. I know that my family Will always be with me and that's my belief and that's my faith and knowing that I just know it like I don't know how people And again, people might say the same thing to me.

[00:32:21] They're like, that's a weird thing to think i'm like, yeah, I guess Well for me, it's just I know it i'm always gonna be with my dad and I have a very strong connection with my Grandmother, I never met her. She died way before I was born, but I always had that feeling of her I just feel her around me and my mom She died when my mom was Nine or 10.

[00:32:41] I forget, but it was nine or 10, but. My mom kind of says the same thing. My mom still gets upset sometimes when she talks about her mom dying, but at the same time, she feels sometimes like she knows there were things that happened in her life where she felt her or she knew her. So these people, they do leave us physically, but the love that you feel for people, I don't think that ever leaves you.

[00:33:01] I have the idea that when we die, the people we love, we meet them. That's always been my idea. That's always what I was told growing up. That's another reason you don't fear dying is because when you die, you see the people you love and that's why you're not scared. So I always carry that with me when I was a kid.

[00:33:18] Up till now, I still think that. And I think that My mom, that was one way when my grandfather died. That was her way of like being okay. She's like, I know he's fine. And I know I'm going to see him again. And then she was to say it all the time. I'll see him again. When I die, I'll see him and I'll be fine.

[00:33:33] I think that belief carries us a lot of people, whether they feel it here now, or whether they think they'll see those people again. I think that helps a lot. I think faith helps a lot. Not having a faith is fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But I do think when people have some type of idea, some type of faith, In something or some great beyond it doesn't have to be a god or god or anything like that But they have some idea of well, this is what's going to happen or even if your idea is like, well I'll be out of pain I think that helps people move forward and it helps in their grieving process a lot funny to talk about death and I wonder if you feel this too like people People always take it to like, again, like, Oh, you're not sad.

[00:34:12] It's like, that's not what I'm saying. Grief is not, grief is sadness. Grief is, is despair. It can be terrible, but we do have to move through it. You will never get over it. You'll never be exactly the same as you were before you experienced that grief. And that's fine, but you do have to move through it. So I do think you have to find healthy ways of moving through it so that you can continue to live your life.

[00:34:38] I also volunteer for an organization called Good Grief, and we work with people who have lost children or children who have lost their parents. And the particular. group that I work with is, uh, the child loss group. So people have lost their children and there are various different ages and different reasons their children had passed away.

[00:34:56] But we always do these little presentations and one of the presentations showed a little ball and people were saying that people believe that over time your grief gets smaller. But actually what it is, is that you grow around it. You experience more and you just grow around your little ball of grief.

[00:35:12] And that's what I want people to understand. You don't get over it. You will never get over it. You always feel grief when you think of whomever you loved who passed away, but you continue to live your life and you just carry that with you and you become a healthier person around that grief because you say, okay, this thing happened to me, but I'm going to keep doing this.

[00:35:34] I'm going to keep living. I'm going to keep experiencing, and I'm still going to miss this person, but I'm going to live. And that's what it is. It's not about getting over it. You don't have to get over it. You never will and that's fine. But just growing around your grief is super important. I don't know how I even got to that, but that's where I am.

[00:35:50] Jill: Wow. It's perfect. I love it. I love it. And yeah, I think part of it is our culture is so black or white, right? That there's either this or there's that. And really, we can grieve and still feel joy. We can feel sadness and we can feel happiness. We can feel More than one thing at a time, right? Part of the joy of being a human is that multiple things can exist at the same time.

[00:36:15] Sometimes people do get almost like judgmental of like, you shouldn't be laughing. You shouldn't be happy right now. You know, you're whatever just died, whether it's your husband or God forbid your child. There's just so much judgment in our culture about. people having these real experiences. Like this is real life y'all.

[00:36:34] It doesn't look like it does in a movie. It's not going to be the black or white that you think it should be in your head. It's going to be a lot of different things. And that's wonderful. That's beautiful. That's part of what makes being a human enjoyable. I mean, think how, if there wasn't, and it's not that I'm grateful for pain and suffering in the world, because of course, I would love to especially relieve a lot of the pain and suffering in the world, like do something, anything to help ease some of it for people.

[00:37:02] But even in my own life, if there wasn't negative things, if there wasn't some pain and suffering, then the moments that are beautiful and bring joy and happiness would not feel as good. Because I wouldn't have that balance between the two. Part of me has always been drawn to the, like, Eastern kind of religions of, like, finding the balance and the yin and the yang, even like, that's really what it's about.

[00:37:29] Having both is part of life. We can't avoid one or the other. We need to have both. And the more that we could be Okay, with having both the more that we cannot get attached to any of it, the negative or the positive rather than getting stuck in that grief or being so attached to happiness that when we don't have it, we're completely losing our minds, right?

[00:37:50] Yes. We just got to find that way to float. I think there is something. To that that can just help us live life and just kind of be like, okay I'm, not happy that i'm gonna die. I'm, not happy that my husband's gonna die, but it's part of life And so when it does happen, I hope that I can face it without fear and without Regretting all the times that I wasn't present and all these other things that I can just be like, okay This sucks, but it's also, it is what it is.

[00:38:21] Yeah, that's 

[00:38:22] Ashley: what, exactly, exactly. Like, it's so perfect. That's the feeling that you'll have, like. This is awful, but it's like, it's a cycle. Life is a cycle. And I think a lot of cultures and religions, especially I was reading about Aztec culture and how people say, Oh, but they did like human sacrifice.

[00:38:44] And they did it though, because they were like, you know what? Life's a cycle. So this is part of the cycle of life. And this person is going to be the sacrifice for whatnot. But it was just making the point that like. They understood that. So it's not that it wasn't sad. It's not that it didn't suck. It's just that like, this is life.

[00:39:02] There will be no spring without a fall. There will be no summer without a winter. This is just how it is. And I think, like you said, attachment is the perfect word. When you attach yourself to like, this always has to be like this. It won't, like nothing is permanent. It will never always be the same exactly.

[00:39:20] So at least when you understand that concept. You can enjoy it when it's good, and then when it's bad, you can be like, again, this sucks, but all right, it is what it is. Yeah. Yeah, that's all, that's, that's life, isn't it? Every day, some days you have the best days and some days you don't, but you're not gonna stop living because you had a bad day.

[00:39:39] The other thing I think, is when we get back to more of a community feel, I think it's better. We have so many places around the world, we have rituals, we have community celebrations to celebrate our ancestors. Those celebrations help with grief. Because if you're all getting together once a year to be like, man, remember grandma, remember my sister, remember Mom, remember my child and we're gonna celebrate them for two or three days and we're gonna give them food and we're gonna dust off their grave and we're gonna talk about them and have a picnic in the cemetery.

[00:40:15] That's the whole community coming together to be like, let's all get together and just remember the people that we loved and make a celebration out of it and their lives. No matter who or what or what happened. And I think that helps everybody is collectively grieving, but they're also having these joyous moments.

[00:40:33] Like they're having these fun. I, one of the traditions I think is really cool is, uh, in Italy. I think it's in Italy, Sicily. Mostly they do, it's called Giorno Del Morte, which is like day of the dead, but in Sicily. They hand out these little toys to kids, and they tell the kids that their dead relatives are the ones who hid them.

[00:40:51] So that the kids aren't afraid of death. And I was like, that's actually pretty cool. They're like, yeah, your dead aunt hid this, you gotta go find it. And they're like, okay, awesome. Go find it. They go to the cemetery, they have picnics there, they eat treats. It's like, We're introducing the idea then that like, it's okay to be sad that your grandma died, but she also hid a toy for you.

[00:41:11] And we're going to go sit by her grave and talk to her and say a prayer and eat some lunch. That's so healthy for kids coming up in that kind of culture. They're like, okay, this is really sad, but also like, look at the way we get to celebrate grandma every year. We get to go back and we get to talk about her and remember how great she was and eat.

[00:41:29] Some sweet bread, like that's awesome. You know, I love. 

[00:41:33] Jill: Yeah, I like that too. I don't think I've ever actually heard of that one, but I'm also not surprised. Sicily I know has some pretty strong rituals and things like that in general. So yeah. And yeah, I think celebrating that the person ever existed, right.

[00:41:47] That we ever had them in our lives. And I know I heard once a couple that had lost a child. He was a teenager. But when they finally got to that point of saying, rather than grieving that we didn't have him moving forward, we tried to really focus on the gratitude of ever having him at all. And I was like, damn, all right.

[00:42:09] That's, that's a tough place to get to. 

[00:42:11] Ashley: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:42:12] Jill: But I can also understand that every moment that I have with the people that I love is one more moment that I have with them. And I don't know when it's going to end. So I can't fear it. I can't be anxious about it. 

[00:42:24] Ashley: Yeah. 

[00:42:24] Jill: But what I can do is just be really grateful for all the moments that I do have them in my life.

[00:42:30] Right? I try. And we aren't coming up on time because the time flies. But I know you also have a podcast. So can you tell us a little bit about your podcast? 

[00:42:39] Ashley: Sure. So I have a podcast called Dine with the Divine. I talk a lot about, you know, religion and mythology and folklore and all the things that make our culture, our cultures and a little bit history sprinkled in sometimes.

[00:42:52] It's just a good time to tell the stories about different people and how they believe. I want to just introduce people to these different concepts and also have a good time and also laugh a little bit about them. The hilarity of all of it. It's all very serious and beautiful. It's also kind of funny sometimes.

[00:43:08] Jill: Awesome. Yeah, I like your podcast. I've listened to a couple episodes and I really enjoyed them. So I'm glad that you're doing it and I'll put links in the show notes as well to your podcast. Do you have like a website or anything you want me to link to? I know you have your Instagram. I'll put that in there.

[00:43:23] But what else do you want to have me link? 

[00:43:26] Ashley: Yeah, and I do some other work on my website, Sankofa Healing Sanctuary dot com. And I do some different stuff over there. I do my doula work and other things. So yeah, 

[00:43:36] Jill: wonderful. Well, I will put all of that in the show notes so people can easily find you, but I really appreciate you coming on today.

[00:43:44] This was fun. I knew it was going to be a great conversation. So I've been looking forward to doing this. Yeah, me too. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of seeing death clearly. In my next episode, I talk with Dr. Brendan Kwiatkowski, an educator and researcher specializing in the social emotional development of boys and men.

[00:44:07] Brendan discusses his research on the emotions and masculinity of teenage boys. We explore why some boys are emotionally expressive while others are not. And the impact of societal norms on their emotional health. In our conversation, we talk about the impact that death and grief have on boys and men, the concept of restrictive masculinity.

[00:44:28] Which pressures boys to suppress emotions, leading to emotional disconnection from a young age. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your Facebook page.

[00:44:45] platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show. Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, every amount.

[00:45:02] is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one time contribution. Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.