Men's Coach Steve Mayeda: Insights on Authentic Healing and Masculinity

In this Can We Start Over podcast episode, Britt and Lindsey recount their wild and hilarious adventure in the Australian bush, complete with tire blowouts, bush angels, and a motel that may or may not have smelled like vomit.

Then, they sit down with men's coach Steve Mayeda to discuss healing in a responsible, authentic way and breaking down assumptions about masculinity.

Steve has been a friend of Britt and Lindsey's for 20 years, so they reminisce about their punk rock days and Spiral Diner visits.

Steve has been helping men through divorce, trauma, dating, and more for 18 years. Check out his services HERE, and follow Steve on Instagram.

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Transcript

Britt: 0:15

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Can We Start Over podcast. My name is Brit. And I'm Lindsay and we're coming to you from yet another bed in Melbourne, Australia. That's true This one much comfier. So Melbourne Reminds me of cool cities in the US a lot. There's a lot of similarities here and We haven't been going out a whole bunch. So a few days ago We decided we were gonna rent a car and we're gonna drive out to the bush and we're gonna see some wild

Lindsey: 0:44

animals Well, yeah, we had a big plan to have a car for four days. Yeah,

Britt: 0:49

I wanted to feel like an Australian. Yeah,

Lindsey: 0:54

he got that leather cowboy hat that Crocodile Dundee wears, he's got a knife strapped around

Britt: 0:58

his calf. I've been carrying them with me for years, just waiting for this moment. And that moment came, we rented a little car, and I learned how to drive on the left side of the road. In the right side of the car. In the right side of the car, cause that's how it works here. It's a little different, I don't know if you've heard of that. So we drove about two hours outside of Melbourne to a little place called Phillip Island. And it's a nice little island, and there's whales there.

Lindsey: 1:29

I call them Phil.

Britt: 1:30

Phil. Phil Island. Cause we're best buds now. Uh, but there's this, this giant colony of the smallest penguins on earth there. And every night they do a little parade from the ocean back up to their burrows. So we went down and we saw that, we saw some koalas, we saw wallabies, we saw a bandicoot, we saw a flock of cockatoos, and other various, uh, fancy birds. Parrots. Lots of parrots. Lots of parrots. It was beautiful. Very nice place. Loved it. So it's night time. We're like, okay, let's, let's drive back home on the left side of the road. In the right side of the car. In the right side of the car. And we're going. We're kind of in the middle of nowhere. In this bushy area, and BOOM, tire blows out. Ah, crap. So I pull over into a driveway of like a ranch house, right? Try to take the wheel off to put the spare on, and it's not coming off. It's on as tight as it can go, and I'm standing on the tool to try to get the nuts loose. Not working. And then, another car pulls over there, and then I see lights from another car that had already been pulled over there. That I didn't even notice because it was so dark and it turns out both of them had hit this same pothole and blown out their tires. So it was a real thing, right? So the owner of the house comes out later, helps me get it off, put a new, put the spare tire on and it's flat. Luckily he has a pump and we pump it up. Is it a basketball pump? It was not a basketball pump. It was a compressor because he was a ranch man. This is a true ranch man. This is a country man. Yeah, he was, he was my first bush angel of the night. And he took care of us, got us going, we're feeling good. Uh, the kids slept through

Lindsey: 3:27

that whole thing. It did, that whole process was like an hour and a half, or longer maybe. Because also we were like... When we thought we weren't going to get the tire off, we were like, trying to figure out, well, should we call a roadside

Britt: 3:42

assistance? Should we tow it? No, that doesn't make sense. This isn't our

Lindsey: 3:45

car. Should we call the rental car company?

Britt: 3:47

Oh, and we did about five times and they didn't answer because it's just one old guy sitting in an office or wherever he is when he's not sitting in the office. So that didn't help at all. Um, nobody would come and help us because it was too far out. Uh, anyway, so that's how that was going. So once we got back on the road, we're feeling good. We just beat, beat the bad, right? And so, we keep going. It's getting darker, it's getting darker. Take a, a wrong turn. Not too far off track, but it's even darker. It's a swamp now at this point. We're

Lindsey: 4:19

literally driving through the swamp.

Britt: 4:22

And Lindsey's like, are

Steve: 4:24

your

Britt: 4:25

headlights on? Which is a weird thing to say in the darkest part of the earth. Um, but yeah, they were on. Were they bright? No. And you know what? I have my brights on. Uh oh. That's a problem. Uh, and then lights kind of start flickering. The AC's not working. Oh, crap. What's happening? And eventually we come to a tee in the road. And I slow down and stop. And I assess the situation. But then the car dies. So, there's nothing I can do at that point. Oh, shit. Then, along comes my second bush angel. And a really nice car, in the middle of nowhere, pulls up to help. And we push the car over to the side of the road, because it's done for. This car is not

Lindsey: 5:15

starting. It's not even like trying to turn over, no lights come on, literally nothing happens when you turn the key. Right,

Britt: 5:20

and for all of you that know what's going on, which I'm sure plenty of you do, I'm not much of a car person, but it was definitely the alternator. I knew that much. And I was like, crap, did I rattle it loose when I hit this pothole? But that's not a thing. I looked it up. It's not right. And I've started to realize earlier in the day that clock wasn't keeping time.

5:41

And

Lindsey: 5:41

that has, what would you think would be a battery?

Britt: 5:44

Yeah, I, well, that's part of the bad, the whole electrical system. So. Anyway, this bush angel takes us, uh, in

Lindsey: 5:54

his car. Well, first he pushes the car out of the way.

Britt: 5:57

Mm hmm, said that. And then drives us to... Looks under the

Lindsey: 6:02

hood of our

Britt: 6:03

car. the hood and we both nod and say, Yep, it's not turning on. The thing is not on. Yep, nothing obvious here. Then he does the next thing. Okay, right. Then the bush angel, uh, loads, uh, goes home, gets a bigger car, comes back. Loads us into it, and escorts us, brings a second car, brings a second car, with his daughter, with his daughter. We go in two cars, uh, to the closest motel, and luckily they had one more room for us. It smelled like vomit.

Lindsey: 6:37

I didn't think it smelled that at all. Oh, it

Britt: 6:39

absolutely smelled like vomit. You know, you're usually more sensitive to smells than I am, but, uh, I had a hard time breathing in there. Uh, but you know what? We were still happy. We were so happy. I was a little nervous that rental car was gonna get, I mean, the windows were partially down, couldn't get them open, or get, couldn't get them closed. So, I don't know. I was like, am I liable for this? Was this my fault? Oh, you

Lindsey: 7:03

were worried about that, I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, yeah. I literally didn't give that car a second thought once we got out of it. I was like, that car does not exist to me anymore.

Britt: 7:11

Yeah, I mean, the steering wheel was on the wrong side anyway. So, I mean, it didn't have much going for it. But, we slept in that motel. The next morning we found, luckily there was a bus going from there to Melbourne. First we that. That's not interesting. We watched

Lindsey: 7:28

Anthony Mourdain. We did

Britt: 7:29

do that. Love him.

Lindsey: 7:31

I think another really helpful thing is that we didn't actually know how we were going to get back, but the really nice people that owned the motel were talking to us about ways we could get back to Melbourne, and they were like, oh, you should just take the bus. And we were kind of like, what? Thinking it's like a city bus, but it was straight up like, uh, They have an amazing, amazing transportation system here. It was like if the

Britt: 7:53

Chinatown bus from Philly, uh, smelled great and was clean. Yeah. It was a nice bus. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Uh, and it was 14. For all of us. For all of us. Australian. Which is, what, like 11 or something US. Fantastic. That got us all the way back. And I went back up to the spot, gave the old man his keys and said, uh, well, your car's out in the bush, sir. And he's like, oh, oh, oh, really? Like, I think he knew there was an issue. Anyway, it doesn't matter. He ended up refunding the whole thing and asking no questions. Luckily I dropped a pin on to where this thing was in the middle of nowhere. Um, and that's that. Hopefully he picked that car up. Or maybe not. Maybe he didn't want to pick it up. Maybe he reported it stolen. I don't know how

Lindsey: 8:43

things work here. Maybe he thought it was a blessing.

Britt: 8:45

Yeah, could have been good for him. So that's what happened to us. We were supposed to have that car for, like, three more days. We were going to drive the Great Ocean Road, experience more Australia, and maybe that was a sign to go back to the house and work. Yeah,

Lindsey: 9:01

so we were given this other, yeah, we've been kind of laying low, and then we were like, let's get out. And then whatever said, no, go home, lay low, and that's what we're doing. That's what we will continue to do. And that was. A hilariously funny, amazing situation that was also, everything was just kind of like lining up so perfectly, even with all the shit that happened. Yeah,

Britt: 9:36

Bush Jesus came through instead of

Lindsey: 9:37

Bush Angel. I mean, because if the person who drove us, that second person, literally drove right past us and stopped, and what if he hadn't done that in that moment? Then we would have just been stuck there.

Britt: 9:51

Yeah, totally. Uh, that reminds me, at one point Like, we were in the middle of

Lindsey: 9:55

nowhere, we would have been stuck.

Britt: 9:56

Right. At one point, when no one was around, a truck full it was like a Bronco full of teenagers came by and just yelled, Fuck you! And kept going. But it was an Australian accent. Uh, it was kind of funny. Because at that point, we already knew the guy was coming back to pick us up in his bigger car, with his daughter in her car. And, that's how that went. They

Lindsey: 10:15

were very nice. They were very nice. So nice. Something that I, that was also really sweet was when we got to the hotel, just kind of like how interested and open to it Eli and Jack were. And actually kind of into it, not excited, but just like, okay, well, you know what, now let's see what's on TV. Like making the most of it was their genuine

Britt: 10:40

outlook. And luckily they had slept through. A great deal of that stressful evening. Yeah,

Lindsey: 10:45

because we could have had a two year old crying for like. Most of it, and it really just started happening in

Britt: 10:51

the end. At one point, he was like, Dad, fix it! Dad, fix it! Dad, fix it! And that's so sad to just hear a two year old crying that, and me not being able to fix it. I can't help you, son. I

Lindsey: 11:04

think he was, um, calling you out.

Britt: 11:07

He was. He called me some other words, too, but I won't say those on air. But that's how our trip is going. That's how it's going for us right now. It went kind of downhill, but boy was it fun. And it could have been a movie. It could have been, uh, what's that movie with the digital underground? And Dan Aykroyd.

Lindsey: 11:25

Oh, nothing but trouble. Oh my gosh, that was one of my favorite movies when I was like 11. That was our exciting Australian adventure in the outback. It's probably not really the

Britt: 11:35

outback. It's funny, I call it the bush, but I asked one of the bush angels, I was like, is this the bush? And he's like, No, this is considered a rural suburb, which of course it's not the bush, but I want to say it's the, I'm just want to call it the bush cause that's so much more exciting. Oh yeah. Oh, another thing. First Bush Angel said that the day before five cars had blown out and pulled into his driveway in 90 minutes. I know of at least eight cars that got screwed up by that hole in the, you

Lindsey: 12:05

should really write a strongly worded letter to the. City council? I don't know. The mayor? Is there like a... What do they have here? President? You should do it all. And doing it all actually reminds me of our interview we're sharing today. We interviewed Steve Maeda who is not only a dear friend of both of ours. He's also a men's coach. He's been a coach for 17 years. He's... Taught all over the world, he's worked with thousands of men on dating, sex addiction, divorce, trauma, he is the father of four boys, he is just a wealth of knowledge also on living internationally and traveling and doing it all while raising kids. Being an authentic person in a space where a lot of people aren't.

Britt: 12:56

He's easily one of the most interesting people

Lindsey: 12:58

I know. And he keeps it like 1000% real. Yeah.

Britt: 13:02

Even if it doesn't. You'll hear, you'll hear. Even if it's him telling stories about doing crazy things in a bar that he shouldn't have done. Which you'll hear, he just says it out loud, so.

Lindsey: 13:13

Yeah, but man, we cover a lot of amazing topics with him and I love, I always love talking to Steve. I love his perspective. It was just a great interview. I loved doing it and listening back made me miss friends. So I was like, Oh, this is so fun to talk to a friend. And I feel like I haven't done that in a while. Yeah. Out there in the bush. There's, I don't know anybody. Keep up with Steve's offerings by looking at his website, stevemieda. com or check him out on Instagram, stevemieda is his handle. You can find all of that info in the show notes below. Let's get into the episode. It's a really good one. Let's do it.

Britt: 13:57

Well, awesome. Thanks for coming on. I was. Really excited to get you on one because your whole story is the epitome of starting over multiple times And I mean, I mean that in a good way or in the way that it is, right That as well as I you know, I've known you for almost 20 years And, um, as you were saying, like, all of this stuff on your Instagram, and I, I've been following you, you know, from social media because we're not in the same place at the same time, almost ever, I, a lot of times I've, I've wondered about it, like, I myself have never felt like masculinity, you know what I mean? I've never dove into any sort of masculinity, anything, so I've, was kind of watching from afar, and I've always been curious, and then knowing, you know, the different sort Men's coaching stuff that you've done over the years seeing how it all ties in and I've been really curious about it And yeah, I was like, I want to dig more into this. I want to talk to Steve about this. I want to see Is this something I'm aligned with? Um, but as I've been watching your videos and stuff, uh, it makes a lot of sense. You talk a lot about healing in a responsible way, and healing in a way that's real, you know? And not necessarily hiding, hiding your emotions. You want it to be, you want to have a community where men can talk to other men about the shit that they've been through. And actually heal from it and not quick, easy answers because that's not sustainable

Steve: 15:27

is what I got from it. So yeah, well good i'm glad you got that from it because whenever I say i'm a men's coach That's always yeah, but or like there's all these assumptions that come with it on multiple sides like not just two sides But many different directions so with the men's coaching It's really interesting to do this with you guys because I bring you guys up often, um, so I photographed your wedding and then also I remember when I stopped drinking, I was like, well, you know, and Lindsey was like, no, no, no, this is good. It was like really that bad. Jesus Christ. Um, so the, the, there's a lot of different parts where you guys are in this. And also, you know, with photography and shooting on film and those types of things. There's a lot of history and you guys, if I ever say spiral diner, even in like, like I could be in small towns in Columbia and people may have heard of it because it's just, it was also in Fort Worth. It's just so crazy when I, in fact, be, well, maybe when we were already reporting, but, uh, one of the, the wives of a chief that I work with and the Dakota stuff, uh, she has been to spiral diner tons of times. And I was like, no, man, I stayed in a squat. Lindsay for a week or maybe more, but you know, so it's, it's just kind of like a cool thing and a cool part of the story. And the other thing too about that was, is that I go, you know, it was so weird because, you know, I just wanted to be irresponsible, steal stuff and do drugs and not have whatever. And like punk rock teams fit within that. And of course you want to believe in all the other stuff, but then these other people went and actually did something with it. And then over the years you saw, and that I think is important. And then I'd go back years later and some of the people that were on the kind of like. Let's do drugs and not be responsible. We're working there and it changed their lives and use that as a vehicle to change a lot. But yeah, you guys were there from the start, which is very, very cool. Um, when you come to the masculinity thing, it's interesting because I have my own unique take on it, but there's, there's this book that I'm trying to finish. I actually finished it and the editors said you need to cut out a third of this and rewrite a bunch of stuff before we touch it. The thing was, if I were to outline it, men have pain. Here's like some of the pain. Stop denying it. Stop comparing it. Stop saying, you know, it's deserved and all that stuff. And it's pain. Men need to heal like men. You can heal whatever way you want, okay? One side isn't denying the other. If you want to heal in a feminine way, that's cool, but For some people, it's not easy for them to do, and you shouldn't discount that. And then the second part is, is a lot of the PC narrative of why men have pain and the solutions to it. This could be part of feminism. We hear that a lot. This could also be just like modern culture. It usually gets it wrong. But the third part would be then the men's movement made it worse. The men's movement. And of course there's good sides to the men's movement. Like in the late eighties and nineties, there was a men's movement that I never thought about at that time. But then you learn about it. You go, man, these guys are trying to do like a really good thing, but it's so interesting because in this men's movement, it was trying to, it was pointing out problems in the nineties that are still problems in good ways, but what became popular, you know, this actually says something about our culture. What became popular was how I entered into it, which was like, I was just stealing stuff and like, man, I don't care about anything. And I can't tell anybody that I'm a thief. I can't tell anybody about drug stuff or whatever. And then I found these guys that were picking up chicks and I was like, okay, cool. And I made money. And then all of a sudden I'd been in and out of rehab so much like prior, all of a sudden I could give advice towards like deeper level stuff. And I didn't really know why it was good. And it's so weird because I talk a lot about helping men in deep ways and carrying them through really hard stuff. Then I go, yeah, but I started out not wanting to do this. I didn't, I did not care. I, I, I had ideals, but I didn't live them. And I was able to find a way where I was useful and get paid. And just because I was making money at the time. And needed something other than stealing stuff to make a living. It was, it's what worked. And then it became this really awesome thing that in many ways I'm proud of and, and all this sort of stuff. But why was it, and I think about this, why is it that in 2006, seven, eight, nine, there were men who were federal judges, academy award winners. lawyers, stockbroker people, all these people who could afford therapy, were the only people who could afford going to a pickup seminar, a pickup artist seminar. Why were they listening to these clowns? Why were they listening to somebody like me that was just like some drug addict that was like peeing on people in a bar or whatever, whatever crazy stuff I was doing. Like, I mean, it's, it's ridiculous. Why would you do that? And then when you look at the people who were the founders of the pickup industry, they were literally clowns. Some of them were very, very good people. Some of them weren't. They had good intentions, but why would somebody look for that? And that's because men had pain. Now, when you get into this, like, this is my theory and just kind of the, the idea that I have of it, male toxicity, whatever that is in my version of it, meaning being a terrorist, wanting to blow shit up, kill stuff, which is something that I relate with, that comes from an answer that doesn't work, guaranteeing to solve that pain. So when we say PC culture gave an answer that doesn't work, that caused pain that then creates this men's movement, which is insane for like all the bright lights and flashy stuff and be strong and be powerful. And when that doesn't work, when your own people that you put your faith in doesn't work, you become a terrorist. And so I think school shooters have existed for a long time. The Elliott Roger thing started on a site called PUA hate, which was the reaction to the pickup artist industry from people who had hired pickup artists. And it didn't work. I'm talking about what thieves these people were and he posted all about what he was going to do on that site. Now, of course, there's other motives for school shooting and whatever, but there's a lot of people who didn't get an answer that were guaranteed an answer and had horrible lives and had a lot of loneliness. And all that sort of stuff. But see, here's the thing. Then we get into the solving of these things, which is this massive knot of things, which somehow I was very talented to do. And, you know, I kind of brush it off saying somehow, but like, it's, it's a big, you know, I've had clients who've died. I've sat there with them during horrific times. Had people bait me for their lives and all this sort of stuff and and I take it very seriously And I take helping somebody very seriously, but you have to start where they're at and that's not pretty for everybody So if somebody's full of hate It's uh, you know, if somebody's full of hate towards women, nobody wants to listen, but I'll bring this up in 2019. I was working at that plant medicine rehab and two of the people in this conversation are now dead One of them I was just with last week who's doing all right And the other one is not doing so good and the other one is not doing so good He told me we're in this cave. We were hiking in austin and he goes He goes man. I've done bad things. I've done bad things. He was a vet He was talking about beating somebody up and then begging for their lives and him continuing and thinking it was funny. And I was like, man, you know, I can relate. And I told him some of my stories or whatever. And he was moved because he thought he could never talk about this. Now, this isn't the solution. The solution is a huge thing. But just the idea that you had to be a bad person to be a part of the human experience in this way is a huge thing. And just feeling and just being sensitive and just expressing himself isn't good enough. He needed to be around somebody who, you know, thought these things were funny. Like, I mean, yeah, it's horrible. You are attacking somebody and he pees his pants and is terrified and starts begging and you keep going and laugh. And then as you're telling the story 10 or 20 years later, you laugh too. Like, He thought he was, you know, had no hope for that. And I was like, no, man, that's how it works. Like, you know, sometimes I laugh at those things, not to be sadistic in that way, but it's a part of it. Um, you know, like childbirth, I've watched four, four of my sons be born and two of them naturally. I mean, it's insane, right? It encompasses so much. That you can't put it into one thing, and it's just such a big thing. Well, violence for human beings is similar in that sense. And so that's, that's important. Like, we need to understand that our society has caused problems for tons of people, men and women, and all sorts of stuff. It's, it's horrible how people find their ways of living and accept them and that sort of thing. And it's our responsibility to help fix that where we're at to help fix them where they're at And so women and men have caused tons of problems for one another and it's like man We got to solve it and if you solve it without a solution just to make yourself feel better And so you can post about it and those things you you're doing it for the wrong reasons and uh you know, so I think that that ties into it a lot too with our kind of like Narcissistic culture and that sort of thing.

Lindsey: 25:34

Well, I just want to go back to you said that it's like it's this huge Not that it's a big issue and we need Yeah, a big solution. But what I've found and I think you're saying this is that actually the big solution is in these tiny interactions and in like a one on one connecting and seeing someone and then mirroring back to them. What you're saying, you know that it is gonna it has to start small to be

Steve: 26:08

effective even So like I work with guys in different ways. So society may have judgment towards like, uh, uh, picking up chicks So if I meet a guy who wants to get laid a lot There's usually pain in that but you know, it doesn't start there. Like it it really can't to say that would be So condescending if I start there with him and i'm untying that knot My job from my perspective from my definition of working people has to walk with them on the entire road towards that and so that's a whole thing because like the the things that guys would ask would be like I want to have sex with a woman on the same night. I want to have multiple girlfriends. I want to have threesomes And you know, I want to get laid in a bathroom or something like that all these things which are not how we think But man, there's, there's a bad, there should just be a whole website for bad bathroom sex stories. It's not the place, um, especially in an airplane or a port a potty, they're just bad. The thing is, is one of the most important things in that is that if he can achieve that, of course, without causing damage or harm, and that's tricky anytime we interact as humans. You're going to affect somebody else because it's not going to be the thing that makes them happy. It might be part of it, but it's not going to be the thing that makes them happy. But we got to start there. It's kind of like, I want to start a business that's successful, man. It's, do you know what that means? You know, but if you tell them that, you know, our cultural motives are just so bizarre that, you know, I want to be popular on Instagram, right? Get me that. But if you, if you think it's going to make you happy and you're working with somebody that takes you all the way through. You have to know how to guide them through that. So you want a little bit of success to get them to, uh, have faith in the process. And I don't think these things are bad. You can find great life from how we have sex and how we evolved is so much different how we could ever have in modern culture. So there's all these bizarre ways that people have, there can be happiness in it, but it takes a lot of responsibility, as Brit had said before, it, it's a big process. So with any of these things, You want to get people on a road that's going to work for them and that they're going to be be able to Find so if they just have sex with a bunch of people but not in a way where they can be happy later It's a failure if you just start a business where you're not going to be happy later. It's a failure And so this is important if you're guiding somebody to guide them down the road towards where they are going to be happy No

Britt: 28:48

that uh that that sums up. That's actually those are the I guess the messages I was getting from watching your videos, too So a holistic look at um, yeah men's health emotional Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So tell us you, you mentioned, uh, like your own recovery, right? Uh, as far as, um, drugs, alcohol. Uh, can you talk about that a little more? Just about how, what role that played and where you're at now

Steve: 29:15

with all of this? Yeah, probably was one of the best things I ever did for myself. You know, I, I got, I went to my first, so I have a lot of different areas of recovery. Like I wrote these five year goals. Almost four years ago, uh, ago, and one was to experiment with different modes of recovery, which I was already kind of doing, but now I've done it a lot. So one, I'm a 12 step person. I believe in it. I think it's a great thing. I think when people are critical of it, it's one of the most naive ideas you could have because it's free. It exists worldwide. It's a true community and there's no leaders. There's no leaders or no money. Okay. There are weird things about 12 step that I can talk about, but If you don't get like, whenever I hear people say, well, the science, well, look at, look at the thing which has helped the most amount of people for generations for the most amount of time, it's 100% that and, and it, and it works when people casually say it doesn't work, that's usually because there was some denial or whatever in between it. And then, like I had said, I had worked at a plant medicine recovery place and kind of is the 12 step guy. One of the problems with that is they prevented me. The two people who begged for their lives. Like, I was just looking at their text messages, uh, the other day, because I was with one of the guys who made it out alive. And, you know, they were saying, you know, Steve, I need help. Like, I'm gonna die. And, uh, said, okay, I'm coming to get you. And they said, man, the person who owns the facility won't let me go to a meeting. They want me to do this other thing. Which is probably part BS, because, uh, this guy probably could have done whatever he would have wanted. But... There was, there was always a frowning upon that. And it's just unnecessary. Um, because he literally died like four days from sending that message in the facility, ODing in it. So, and a couple of days before that, he ODed. With one of the mentors there. So, wow. That says something about the facility. And that doesn't mean all plant medicines are wrong. They do help in some ways, but it's very specific and it's not a one trick thing. And there's not a real community around it. There's a capitalistic community around it. There's one that's very self aggrandizing and that's not in 12 steps. There's no self aggrandizing stuff in it. One person might have a character defect, but by its nature, it's not. So it's kind of a trip. But um, man 12 step stuff was great. I went to my first meeting when I was 14 with my dad and then I actually overdosed twice when I was 17 and started going to meetings and caring about it from 17 to 20. Then I started, uh, relapsing. It didn't get so bad. And then when I met you guys, I was like, I don't want to go back to meetings. Like, fuck that. I'm going to, I'm going to do this without it. Cause now I have like, I've been stealing stuff and like causing all this damage. I don't want to actually like make amends for this stuff or do an inventory, but eventually I did in 2008 and it was great, man. It was, it was awesome. It's still something that I do to this day. Um, you know, I'm in Columbia right now. I'll go to meetings here. My sponsor actually works in Columbia. And, uh, go to meetings all over the world. It's the recovery, 12 step recovery specifically is not about getting the edge on the world. But if you want to know the best life act possible is go to meetings in other countries because it introduces you to so many great people, but that's not why we go to meetings. You only go to meetings to stay clean or sober or whatever, but it's, but it has been a great thing for that. Um, but then also with plant medicines, I believe in them, but with great caution, like I've seen many people die and I've seen way more people relapse. So when I'm talking about people dying or committing suicide, that's the bad thing, right? It's kind of like with the incel thing or men being terrorists. There's a whole bunch of people who aren't terrorists who have huge amounts of pain that are going to help generations later become terrorists. And so when it comes to recovery, there's a whole bunch of people in huge amounts of pain who've gotten a plant medicine solution, which may work profoundly in many ways, but there isn't, it's starting to get better, but there isn't like a therapeutic side that will help them. That's getting better. There's a lot of capitalistic therapists that I think we're premature in thinking how they could help them. There's a lot of rebellion in plant medicine, which in my experience and learning more about where the medicines come from, and every gringo says he's an expert or whatever, but it's not about idolization, adoration. It's not even about addiction plant medicines. Most of the time, things like ayahuasca or yagé or boga weren't used. To heal a broken heart from somebody whose parents didn't love them. They were used to heal cancers or different physical ailments. Um, and, and it's actually improper for me to say, but it's clear they weren't so that you could clear your, your head. And go kill it and crush it in the united states or in europe or whatever Right there the more that I practice with people like that The more I want to renounce and those types of things and and just go full on rom dust yeah, well, I

Lindsey: 34:40

was gonna say you see that i'm It's been a thread through our whole conversation so far, but you see that in spiritual communities, too How can I monetize this not even that making money is bad because we need necessities, but to the, to the X degree of like having so much that it drains it all out of it. And I agree with you. I see that in plant medicine to these recovery modalities or connection or any healing modalities that are inherently good and then used to be like, all right, let's really just squeeze all we can out of it. So in

Steve: 35:22

particular, Oh, go ahead. No, I want to hear your thought. With with things like ayahuasca, so I haven't done Ibogaine or Iboga, but I've worked with like over a hundred people who have every single one of them relapsed to what I would call a relapse. So that's another thing in recovery and addiction. You see people with different definitions, which makes it apples and oranges. So 12 steps have a seven to 10 or 12% recovery rate for the first year or whatever it is that they always advertise. And they say we have an 80%. Well, 12 step means that I took a sip of beer and that's a relapse, or I got drunk, or I fully relapsed. So it's all the same thing as a relapse. That's the 7 10% or whatever the stats are. When it comes to Ibogaine or Iboga, most of these people say, well, are you out on the street using it? And that is a very, like, everybody relapsed. Everybody got drunk again. You know, they might be smoking pot. And you can have ideas. Like, I think things are going to change with the use of marijuana and so on. And, and maybe alcohol too. But when we see it as a rebellion, when we see it as something where I'm going to assert myself and I was wrong. Man, from what I know about plant medicines and even knowing just people who grew up in it, that's not the nature of the medicine. And, uh, when you get to stuff like mushrooms or like one of my friends, he's, he, he's, uh, I know him through the Lakota communities and he lived with, I forget who, but it's of the Maria Sabina people in Oaxaca, but it's not her family. But, uh, he has a completely different relationship with what mushrooms are and how, like he has lived it, you know, he lived with them for, I think, five years. Much, much different than us cherry picking what he would say and then eating some and then thinking I'm great means that my identity is now justified. You know, so I was thinking this, it's further,

Lindsey: 37:28

it's just further concreting the ego rather than A spiritual path would be like, well, becoming friends with the ego and then, you know, working with it wisely or maybe eventually, you know, releasing ego if that's possible. But yeah, there's this, I've seen it too, where it's like, oh, this is just actually solidifying further my

Steve: 37:57

ego. Yeah. I was thinking about this today and also in talking to you guys. Because it's so special, the, the process, the human process of what we're going through here. And if we look in like a karma sense or whatever, I'm always like, man, I'm going to be on a podcast and I'm going to talk to people and I'm going to broadcast myself. And it's so much ego. It's so much me. And I was meditating this morning and I was thinking, I was like, you know, in this state, I, uh, I do something called Kriya Yoga. And it. It's great. I love it. Um, and so I'm in this space and I'm talking to the deepest side of myself or existing with it or whatever. And I'm like, I need things. And this voice was saying, you were given everything. You wake up with air. You wake up with food to eat. You've never gone starved. You've never been starving. You have water to drink. You have everything. What do you need more? You have God's body. You have the divine. You have the ability to do this. You think you need more. And if you get something without understanding that you're going to turn it into the wrong thing And and it and it's so on an ego side It's so frustrating because i'm like no but I I need money like i'm in the world of capitalism. I I get Success and all those things and it's like I need friends. I need you know women I need you know More likes and these things are important, you know to my life, but you don't need anything And so for me to give that insight I'm coming from a point where I don't know what that lesson is. And I hear so many people broadcasting that they know that lesson, but they're like taking steroids and, or anorexic or something, and you know, that sort of thing. And that's not how, like when we talk about masculinity, I've done masculine stuff. And so when I started in pickup, there were these dudes talking about all this alpha stuff. And I was like, man, I've, I've done that. It's not. It's hard to explain because like, there is a value to it. If you're playing that in a dog eats dog world, you get beat, you get bit, you get hurt. If you beat the shit out of somebody, somebody is going to beat the shit out of you. You don't live in that. I mean, I guess if you gain enough power that you can intimidate everybody. But power is is insane when it's used. to intimidate or hurt or whatever. And so I was like, man, it's, it's, it's not all those things. Like, getting women. Dude, you're gonna have tons of problems. And just think of it from this point, like a lot of people say, yeah, more women, more problems, geez. But it's that you're, you're sharing something with somebody, and you can't be responsible for it, or you think that you can dismiss it. It's going to be a problem. Because people are gonna be upset. Like it has to be a problem. And so to be the human being that can find responsibility in that or peace, I'm not there yet in the few people in the world who I think have come close to that are not people that are popular on Instagram, you know? Right. Who are those people? It's that sort of thing. So I follow, in Kriya Yoga I follow a line that comes from Hari Harinanda and who's left his body and then Pragyananda. one of the living gurus, but there's other gurus in it, like Ravi Shankar, not the musician, not Dora Jones is that, um, is another guru. And, um, there's all these different people, but, uh, I follow some of them and, and, uh, I don't like idolize in some sort of way. It's just like, uh, you know, I'm trying if I can look up to somebody of people that I know, well, you know, I've been around Pragya Nanda, but The people that I know, there's a lady that is really awesome and she'd get so mad if I, if I, that I'm going to say her name, I'm going to say it, but her name is Jo Todd and she's, uh, uh, she's many things. She's a therapist. She's also a chief. But she's also a CREA person. She's probably the smartest person that I know in a certain way, but you know, like I'm a coach and I, I'm good at what I do. My first conversation with her, I was like blown away how well she understood psychology. She has a PhD in psychology. Uh, she's just been doing it for years. She's 76 or 77. It was just her birthday, but she is amazing and she's human. She can have bad days too. Yeah. Um, there's also a guy that I follow that I took, I just took a four year commitment with them and his name is Lex Lynch. Key. You may not be so happy if I'm saying his name, but, uh, You know, also been a therapist for a long time, very different than Joe, this guy, like I've, I've seen and experienced a lot of pain and you can say male pain. I say this because it's part of my story that really affected me, but I don't want to take away from his story with it. But his son was killed a year ago or a year and a couple of months ago. And I saw him a couple of days afterwards. And to see somebody go through that and to understand his life too, which he's had other things that happen to see that is like unreal to see a man or a human being go through that with honor and dignity and emotion and strength, that strength to, to maintain his role is a leader, you know, that doesn't, that isn't like this, you know, but just people look to for advice. I mean, man, when I got divorced, I was like, guys, I'm going to try my best, but I'm mega fucked up. So sorry. You know, like I didn't see, I've never, I've never witnessed something like that. This human answer, part of the human experience is to go through things we don't understand. And in this time of modern culture, we have things like divorce or addiction or. Abuse or, you know, growing up and not feeling welcome in our families or being kids of alcoholics or whatever it is, this is our reality. This is our right of passage and actually it's funny. I said this to Joe and she goes, well, Steve, very interesting. I've told her like two minutes of this pitch of the book. She's like, you know, you're making this great little analogy of a right of passage with taking men's modern problems. Is there pain that they have to go through? But a right of passage also implies by its definition that it comes from tradition and there's a way afterwards, and it means something more to a community and a people than an individual. And in our culture, a right of passage or change is seen only for the individual and for what the individual. thinks they're going to be healed by, which is usually self broadcast. And a rite of passage, and it's different for the many, many different traditions, is that it serves the people. And there's a way that that person's expected to live that's already being lived by elders that they can follow, and it's to appreciate and acknowledge the entire community. And our culture, that's real tricky. You know, how do we find that? So like, what's the road? Yeah. What's the tradition? Right.

Lindsey: 45:53

Yeah. So it's, it's tough. And then it kind of goes back into that cycle of hyper consumerism and achievement. Yeah,

Steve: 46:03

yeah, yeah. So you mentioned you guys are well achieved people, I guess if you wanted to brag, you know, you could, man, I ran a restaurant, a vegan restaurant downtown. It was always packed That's. Cleaned out the drains.

Lindsey: 46:22

So many things. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, um, your end. I mean, yeah, if you want to talk about like being on an achievement, um, like hamster wheel, that's what it was. I had no idea at the time. Because it, it was, it's just learned in our culture. Okay, well, you have this thing, now do everything in your power. And it's just a job. But to keep it going at the expense of your inner being, at the expense of your relationships, at the expense of everything. Yeah, and that was my experience. I mean, that, so the hamster wheel of achievement. And, and I learned a lot. It's both. You know, and that's where I think what is really interesting about what you teach is like, because coming from a space of, is it negative? Is it like against women? But I like looking at it from the space of holding both. And that's really the only way that we're actually going to get anywhere together, you know?

Steve: 47:31

I'm not the only way I'm definitely not the only way, but I'm the only way I know. I will say that I take guys through what I would consider a complete process. And I think that most people don't. And oftentimes my process will start with saying, you know, that B I T C H or whatever, you know, there's a lot of hate that comes out. And if you have to start there, here's the thing, anybody, all people don't think you can't share your emotions. Because if you don't, you're going to be forced to react to them and that reaction F's everything up. And you just need to react in a way, in a place that you can. In like this, terms like safe space or whatever a lot of people don't like, but you have to sit with other people who, like, if you want to, I'll tell you a story. I've wanted to kill people many, many times in my life. And. You know, I'm so glad that when I was 18, I, my first girlfriend was kidnapped and she was assaulted and all this horrible stuff and then they weren't caught and we, you know, I saw the people, you know, before she was kidnapped and then, you know, we, we wanted to kill them. We were going to, and then I was already going to meetings, which really saved my life, but this guy who was also my age. He, his girlfriend, same, a similar thing happened and they went to go kill the guy and he ended up killing one of them. And it's like, it was self defense. They were literally going to kill this guy and he protected himself and killed one of them. And I don't know what happened to the assault charge or whatever. Um, but that was hard to sit with. At that point, all of us were like, man, we shouldn't go kill anybody. And then 16 years later, something they were caught. And that made no sense for many years. And what do you do? You know, you don't you don't talk about it. You try and suck it up and live another day and push it out of your mind and all this stuff, because that's what you should do. Well, that's not what you shouldn't do, but that's what you have to do. Even if you are in therapy, you have to like. You know, it's all sit with guys and don't want to kill somebody. And it's like, yeah, I know. Like sometimes they can't help themselves from talking about it. So when we get into divorce and custody or PTSD stuff with war, especially, I think culture now understands vets a little bit better. And they're like, oh, yeah, you know, go to a group, but oftentimes they're given a false answer and the people feel good about giving them this false answer. Like, oh, no, you could, you could play video games. I read an article and that's really good. Or you could join a support group, but you're not helping them. You're not a part of them. They're not a part of your community. You know how we evolved. And solve their problems was we knew everybody, you know, in a, you know, 10 or 100 people or something like that. But we live in a society where we're not supposed to know anybody. That's part of, you know, our karma or our way or the world we're born into is that we have that as a problem. The thing is, it's like, there'll be guys that are like, man, I, you know, my fucking ex and she's doing this and I can't sit and people just be like, man, you need to get over that person. Can't you can't with just that it is their responsibility to get over it. That is the right thing. But are you helping them? And part of that, some of the times, deals with guys thinking and saying politically incorrect things and wanting to do them and plotting them out, laughing about it, and other dudes who've gotten past it who might be happy laughing about it too. There's nothing wrong with that if it's helping them through that entire road. There's something wrong with that when it's an excuse to acknowledge that Women haven't helped us, or politically correct men haven't, or whatever the shit is, right? But when it's there to take somebody through an entire process, it's a, it's a very good thing. Oftentimes a necessary thing, and especially, I'd say with divorce and custody, addiction, anything PTSD related, uh, war stuff, you're gonna have those moments. And I think that the more that we at least have people not just understand it, but understand that there's a whole road that that person needs to walk and that it's a part of it. Do you want to talk a little bit about your book? So the first part's MetaPain. Go through all that stuff. And it's interesting to look at. I think people should learn more about it. I don't think we should take it lightly. I don't think we should overlook it. I don't think we should so easily understand a solution to it, just like all people's pain. Then a lot of the movements that are critical of men are oftentimes wrong. Like in pickup, I didn't see people hurting women. I saw men buy into a misogynistic narrative that was usually made up. And buy into that, and then they'd get a girlfriend and just kind of chill out or continue to have whatever problems they had, but it wasn't to hate women, but just the ad was fuck them or whatever, you know, all that sort of stuff. But now we do, because of the men's movement, we do have people really, really, really hating women or having hate for women and feeling okay to act upon it because there wasn't an answer. And so with the criticism towards men. Well, it's oftentimes wrong and it's also wrong to just say, well, they're just turds, you know, Or people will say sometimes i'll post stuff online and they'll be like you're just still wounded From your divorce or from whatever pain And to my reply with that is in somebody who takes people through stuff and who's gone through a lot of things And of course people have done much more than me, but i've done more than the average It's like what do you mean by that? Can I not be in pain in our culture? What an interesting message because if you are in real pain and you're walking through it, you're going to show so our culture means needs to have us always looking good. That's part of the problem. So when we get to the false solution, when it's either from the criticism towards men or pro men, this identity of always looking good. Causes a tremendous amount of harm in itself. You need to understand that, like, when people go through pain, when I saw Lex in pain, I saw a person go through the human experience of pain. Your son is killed. That's horrible. And it doesn't have an answer. There's no relief. He rolled his sleeves up and got to work. He walked. He walked in pain. It didn't look pretty. Nobody's sitting there bragging about it, but I'm looking at it going like, I can't imagine. I can't imagine. That is awesome. Like, that's so horrible to say that, but that's, that is in awe. Yeah. And, and if you are, if, if he does lose his shit and get angry or whatever, let, let me like, hopefully we can have a community where I get to watch that. So I can learn from that, you know, and under enough faith in a situation. So then the men's movement and that's, you know, get creates an even more false answer. So then we get to the solution and they always say like the solutions connection and all sorts of crap like that. And it is, but we even know what that means. Connection doesn't mean that we just shake somebody's hand, give a hug and feel good and brag about it. Or if we did our good deed for the day, connection means that when I connect with somebody, I'm partially responsible for that. Whatever happens after that, the me that connects with this person, even in being kinds, and I mess this up every day. Like I am, I am carrying a message that I struggle with working, which is another weird thing of me being a coach. Screw up all the time. But I, but I take it seriously. Like I try to do better. But that also means for sexually. That also means for my agreements. That also means for all these things. When I connect with somebody, I am making something new. Two different things come together. They make a new thing. You can see that with making a baby, obviously. But if I come to you and sharing an emotion and we exchange, there's a new feeling from that. There's maybe a new agreement. There's a new phenomenon. There's a new belief. And I affected that. If I do something wrong, my first reaction is to blame and judge and point out why I'm right. And I do that. But hopefully I have enough discipline in me to go back and look, okay, well, not just what's my partner, but also what is this relationship? What is this relationship? Is it worth me being right? How do I communicate with not lowering myself without abusing myself? How can I communicate the right way? How can I work a boundary, you know, a boundary? They're great, but they're the acknowledgement that I can't, we can't interact. Yeah. So I put a boundary there so that we can be safe, but am I just using a boundary to bypass something or am I really acknowledging like, I don't have it in me to go beyond this and exchange with you on that level? You know, and if you did something like if I did something right, Oh, I'm in the right cool. I am right. I ran it by five people. I'm right. But do I value you and your relationship? You know, can I think about the best way to start inching things towards each other? So I don't know, man, it's, it's, it's a tough thing. But those, those are huge things that come through with the book. You know, this is interesting because When you guys knew me and, you know, I still have these beliefs, like I was really into Daniel Quinn stuff with Ishmael and I actually interviewed him. I found the interview. It's great. And, um, so I always, you know, in all my teachings about dating and sex, it actually goes back to that. Like, if you just want to screw a chick at a club, I can break down the whole. Evolutionary philosophical thing from my standpoint and towards happiness towards peace and towards what we can move towards connection. It's not perfect in the sense that we will achieve fulfillment, but the goal is to move towards fulfillment of our nature. Sex comes from our nature, but there's this thing which is not an Ishmael, which started to come later and looking at other stuff and looking at stuff, especially from. A lot of the stuff with crea or even with Lakota stuff and with the stuff post-divorce and, and it's things that are manmade now. It's interesting cause before the red pill was a thing, I used to be the host of the convention, which became a very red pill thing and I left when it started become really red pill. There started to be these speeches given. That were like man made things are great. They, you know, say it was more of the argument that men are thinkers and they're great and they come up with philosophies and these things and cool. Okay. But I then got this, this other mentor and his whole thing is man made. Things are great. It's divine. We'll never be God. We'll never be nature. We'll never be the universe. But it's our duty, perhaps, to move towards that, and to create it. We create in all these ways, and then, you know, it brings up Islam and Judaism and all these different laws that, that do talk about this, Hinduism. And, and so part of the solution is that, you know, I like to redefine words if I'm going to use them because wisdom can mean anything. But it's experience plus knowledge plus intention or or the building of something and responsibility of something. And so I can have experience but not have wisdom. I could have knowledge and not have wisdom. But but I need to also have that intention and responsibility through it and in time. And so in order to wisdom is man made. And nature. So again, my definition, of course, people were wise, but we also need history. We need generations. We need those things to carry over. And it's a lot easier with society and man to do that. So society is one of society's benefits, right? But also virtue is man made principles are man made, right? And so virtue, you know, what would virtue is the goodness within us. Or principles like spiritual principles like, uh, honesty. Honesty is man made. It doesn't, it's not needed in nature. Nature just is. There's no lie, right? Lie comes from us. But we have that because we have communication and connection. It's part of what we're born into. It's our bodies, it's our karma, it's our whatever you want to call it. So the pursuit of that is huge. And that's for both men and women. And, you know, I'm still trying to figure out the answer. But like I said to you guys, the more and more I do this, The more I moved to like, man, maybe I should just renounce, but you know, I'm into all this hokey stuff, go down and talk to these mystical people or whatever. Uh, but, but I think my job is to stay grounded in the world as much as possible. Um, I of course believe in other things and all that sort of stuff, but to stay grounded, to work with the bare bones, real problems of the world. If somebody does want to take a spiritual journey, it doesn't even have to believe in anything supernatural. Um, that's one of my favorite things about the 12 steps. Like another criticism is, you know, they make you believe in all this stuff, right? They don't, you know, you don't have to believe in God. They might say that, but they didn't know what other word to use and to change that. So for me on this man made journey, if there is a tradition to follow, if there is a rite of passage that the pain that's given to us is it's defined wisdom and virtue is a human being in this world and to go like, man, this thing that was given to me, how do I make it good? This, uh, you know, there's an image that I have in my head of, you know, the heart of mine, the soul of mine that has been broken many times by myself, you know, not just by the world. And yeah, okay. I didn't know yada, yada, yada, but to put it together and to still show that it's capable of love is a big thing, but also from a male perspective, you know, my teachers were sex and promiscuity. They were violence. They, and they still can be. Uh, they, they are male power or whatever that is and things that could be deceptive and lying, cheating and stealing. Those were some of my teachers. I mean, I, yeah, they, they could be socially unacceptable, but those got me to a good place and to tell some people that couldn't be helped. So that those cracks, those shatterings can put something together and still make connection and be a part of what I still think is one of the greater values of the human experience. Man, that's good. So that's kind of my story. So that's my encouraging to other people of take all this stuff and realize I'll get, I'll get kind of, I don't know, nostalgic, whatever. But part of male pain for me is what it looks like. And if you see me with this, you know, here are these things I'm talkative in the group. I work with the Lakota community. We just did a vision quest thing and I am sullen and quiet. And generally pissed off the whole time. And in these things like this is me social. This is how I am but in those moments We're just looking we're doing whatever we're doing and a lot of the ceremonial stuff that we're doing It's intense and that's all I got that to me Is where i'm starting i'm not doing it to be cool or stoic or I read marcus aurelius I'm doing it because that stuff hurts to look at And my only response is to be quiet and that's how I show whatever love like if it's point it's going to come from that So it's real weird because sometimes like we don't really talk in a social setting, but sometimes they'll look at my videos and they're like, man, you, God, you like talk and it's just two sides of me, which is very, I guess, trained. But no, man, a lot of male pain, at least for me, in my experience is just looking and gazing and sometimes just walking forward. And, and a lot of times. And so checks out this guy, he did a workshop with me and he said, I don't think men should cry and I think it's weak and whatever, and man, I just wanted to beat the shit out of him. I didn't because I like what, so when I found out I wasn't going to see my kids for two years, which ended up being five, I cried when I, when I went through the pain of my childhood to be able to stand up and have. Pride in myself. It brought me to tears to think about it now could bring me to tears. And then for society to then say like, Oh, that's the authentic man. No, man, fuck you feel my story. Yeah. You don't have to, but feel the person's story in front of you. Don't use a snapshot of whoever's life to think you understand. Go fucking live, man. Cause it's all in you. You know, this fantasy of man or the fantasy of woman. If, if I can finish this book, I keep saying I'll write a book about women. Cause I time in Latin America has been like, like people bitch about feminism in the us The pain of the world of women is beyond our comprehension in, in its normal. You know? Mm-hmm. so much of the world. It's anyway, but these things that we go through as humans, let them be sacred in the sense that we share and feel, and it's great. We have a language to communicate it, but it's Sharing and feeling. Yeah.

Lindsey: 1:06:16

And it is sacred. And that reminds me of Ram Dass, like talking about sitting with pain, sitting with people when they're about to die or when someone's child dies and not being like, Oh, you're going to be fine or, or you're going to get through this, but just being like, yeah, this shit hurts. And acknowledging that you mentioned and I love your definition of wisdom. Um, I also Feel that wisdom is discernment You know, knowing when to stay still, knowing when to step forward, and also wisdom is alchemizing our experiences in a way that is wise. So how did, how have you, you've lived? A lot of lives. And you had so much experience. How do you alchemize that pain or just experience to instill values in your four sons that you want to cultivate in them or that you hope will cultivate in them?

Steve: 1:07:28

All of life for me is a show. When you first started talking about it, before you brought up my sons, I was thinking about We were talking about my divorce and then I was public about it. All of that is show and it's to truly help people. Like I take my job seriously, but it's advertisement, right? The real stuff was sitting in the pain. It wasn't being loud. And I sat in the pain and I still sit in the pain and it still can be painful. And I love it. Like if it comes up in whatever I'm doing, a meditation or being alone or something, uh, that, that is introspective, I'll, I'll, okay, cool. I don't try and rationalize myself out of it. I try and see where it can take me. But in all of that, in all of that, it always comes back to my sons. And I say this with, and this is part of my own stuff that I'm going through right now. I say this while acknowledging that I've failed in that and that's where it's like my own place of where the longer thing I'm working through is that yeah, I, I, and it's, and I'm so good at being a failure, you know, I'm so good at going like, Oh, I'm going to do something else. I'm going to distract myself and yada, yada, yada. And with, with my kids, that's what it's all for. And I wonder about this because I sit with men who in some ways I play out a fatherly role with and I'm not trying to. I never try, I just, you know, at some point you realize it. And I wonder because my kids, one, I know from helping men that they don't always listen to their parents and part of their journey comes from finding teachers outside their parents. And especially in this modern culture, you know, perhaps and how we evolved that may have been different. There's that. But then there's also, uh, seen that they don't want to listen to me about stuff that I might embarrass them with being a men's coach or having a dating coach history and all this sort of stuff. And, um, the, you know, that's one of those things. It's like, yeah. Because I don't, I don't try and cancel out my history, which a lot of people do, like a lot of old dating coaches. I used to do that. No, man, I'm still a pickup artist. I don't really do it, but like, that was a huge part of my life. And there was so much good towards that. And if anything, one, I'm crazy, as you guys know. So I was like, man, six months ago at the Black Dog, I went up to somebody and urinated on them and then punched them. Well, they're trying to figure out what was happening. I continued to put her, whatever, you know, it was like being a pickup artist was a salvation for me. No, but like there was,

Britt: 1:10:21

that's our internet right there for social.

Steve: 1:10:26

If only the black dogs still existed. Yeah. The, the, the most amazing place in the world. But the, the thing is I, I don't delete my history. Maybe that's valuable to my kids. Maybe it embarrasses them. These are these things that I don't know. Wouldn't it be great if I could sell the idea to my kids, like I fought for you. And that's why I did this stuff with divorce and custody. I don't think it's that easy at all. I think that everybody, you know, what also I noticed from helping men is that I get these guys, this was years and years ago, they tell me that they were told. That, uh, you know, their, their fathers were horrible, but unless their fathers really did abandon them, they, they made up with their fathers almost every single time, which is another thing that guys don't know and fathers don't know, like that happens like it's it will happen. So that whole story will fix itself in all these ways. With my older kids, you know, at the time, their mom talked a lot of trash on me and that affected them. Yeah. But it didn't affect them in the way that my pain said it would when I was getting the trash talked to, if that makes sense. What affected them was me not being around. What affected them was their mom being upset. Uh, was me being upset. And these types of things. Like, and still, I think also when it comes to my kids, like, I have guilt for being depressed for two years or 18 months or whatever it was when we first got divorced. And. But at the same time, that's reality. That's, that's what I went through. And I wasn't, I would say I wasn't irresponsible, but I did a lot for it. And hopefully they can see that. With what I'm teaching my kids, it's more to be there for them and not this great philosophy or whatever. So what's

Britt: 1:12:23

something in this moment that you want to create or experience that, that may feel like starting over or something you've always wanted to do and maybe net? Are now

Steve: 1:12:35

thinking of there's a couple things. So on the spiritual level, I want to be okay with some of those things. Like I was talking about with meditation of like, can I be happy with nothing? You know, I was eating before this. So I ate at this great restaurant in Columbia that I like, and it's for the most part vegan, but vegetarian. I was like, ah, let's talk to Lindsay and Brit. And then I ate some, some meat before this, okay. And before I eat, believe it or not, I actually pray now, but not as a prayer of like, like, I'm so grateful that I get to eat. You know, I'm so grateful for all the people who work the trucks, who the life that went into this, the people, and that I get to be a part of that. And it's, it's awesome. And, uh, I wish I could be better at those things and not eating so much, you know, to go like, uh, I wonder if you guys ever wonder about this because. You know, owning a restaurant, the choice to eat at a restaurant, my body doesn't need that my soul doesn't need everything we need for happiness doesn't need that. But I get to do that all the time. And because of that, I don't exercise what I consider now the higher principles of choice. And so I just, I, I hope spiritually I could get there and to achieve true forgiveness. And by that, so I was just at this ceremony, I'm about to go to another ceremony. There was a vision quest ceremony. I was sitting next to this guy and I lived as a thief and he did the same thing. We were talking about recovery stuff. It's like, some of these stores are closed. I couldn't make amends to him. But if one of them came to me and said, you stole this, I could say, If I can give it, I'll give it because it's not that that's not me. We were talking about change because I'm always me. I never get to deny myself. I'm a pickup artist. I'm a thief. I'm a misogynist. I'm a whatever, but these are for me too. They're not for you to tell me what I am so that you can hate me there for me. They were for me. They were for the people that I was connected with. And in working a program of recovery for my belief, you make amends. And there's still amends I have to make. Those things I took seriously, but part of that amends process in recovery is you work all the other steps before it because you do everything you can to change. So my gesture of amends is bigger than just saying, I'm sorry, here's the money back. It's that I've done things to make sure this doesn't happen. And so if somebody were to come to me, what he was saying. Was I know that person could do that? I may not want to do it, but I know that person could say, okay, i'm going to commit actually Dude, you guys are really great people, but I remember I said, hey brit Do you still have that pentax 6 7 the first thing he says I could probably find the email or whatever Facebook message. He goes, he goes, Oh man, our house got broken into, but I'll buy you another one. You don't need to, but what a cool camera too. What a cool camera for you to have to get stolen. Cause cause it meant something to me and it meant something to you. And it's, it's that's, that's, I don't need it. It was more of a nostalgia thing, but those things. Are so precious but so that sort of thing that takes a character that's built to be able to say that And so what this guy was saying in terms of recovery was something along those lines that that that sort of character is is Is built in him to be trusted to do whatever and that's part of the the change the fundamental change a person goes through When I see people in those communities Whatever, pray or go into, they call them prayers, but it means something a little bit different than how we prayer. But if I see them go into a sun dance and all that stuff, it's intense. And you could say, Oh man, they starve. That's not it. It's an acknowledgement of their belief. It's an acknowledgement of, of spirit and so on. It's not like this torturous gesture, but Lakota people are, everything's hard with those guys. But even with like Korea stuff or something along meditation, it's, you know, I'll do a little bit of bragging, but this is the bullshit part. Like I've taken meditation very seriously. I've meditated every day for over an hour for over a year, year and a half or whatever it's been. But here's the thing. It's the becoming nothing part, you know, kind of like what Rom does talks about. And that is crazy. And again, thank God for him to show that it could be possible even for a moment. Yeah. And still be coherent like him. Those are the hard things for me. I'd say, then we flip to the other side of the world, all the hits I get talking to whatever people, mentors and so on. It's like, no, you need to be in the world at least for a little bit longer. You need to be kind of loud and do these things and understand the equation and money and capitalism and these things. And so with that, yeah, there's some things business wise, I'm a very good coach, but I do it through really working with people intimately. Um, and so to get bigger in some ways, yet manage still being able to help people.

Britt: 1:18:06

And you definitely have a gift for this stuff and sticking with people and helping out. I remember Whenever it was, you and I went to Chicago to work on music. I don't know if I ever mentioned this, but you walked out, you went to the restroom or something, and one of your pickup artist friends was there. We were, I guess we were staying at his house, and he came to the studio and was hanging out. And you left the room, you left the room and he, he, and I wasn't paying attention. He's like, man, somebody needs to write a book on Steve. And the first thing I was like, what? The first thing went to Albini. Cause we were sitting in Albini's room and he walked out and I was like, what's this guy talking about? And then, and then he just starts going off about like. How important you were to this scene and all these people that you've helped. And it was, it was so cool. Cause I didn't know that side of you at all. Like, I think before we took that trip to Chicago, like. We had I didn't I had no clue that you were even in that scene or even that that scene existed outside of

Steve: 1:19:05

Sure the book steve albini sure liked it. Yeah, he did

Britt: 1:19:12

And that's uh, that's Pretty special there that you were interesting to

Steve: 1:19:16

albini, too

Lindsey: 1:19:18

For me, you've always been someone who I was thinking about this today. Like you have always existed to me in this Field of possibility like I've seen you do so many things. It's true. And I think you, you expand people's their own possibility because I remember it was maybe 20 years ago or may have around that you reading. The Pickup Artist book. I, I think I

Britt: 1:19:48

hope they serve drinks in hell. No, no, no. No, no,

Lindsey: 1:19:52

no. It's the game. It's Neil Strauss. Is that who wrote that? Yeah. I remember you read We were at Benito's and you had that book. And then you were just interested in it. I don't know if

Steve: 1:20:03

you remember. I never fully read it either.

Lindsey: 1:20:05

Yeah. And then I read it because I think I borrowed it from you and then you were that and then you're, and same thing with traveling. You're just like, Oh, I'm going to go drive to Mexico. And then you're doing that. And then you're a photographer and then you have a studio and it's like, you've always been like in the field of possibility. So I think whatever you are. Whatever you're cooking up as far as a product, I don't know if it's a course or in some other way that you're gonna nurture people, like, it's possible. It's, it's happening. It's cooking in there.

Steve: 1:20:42

And the possibility of what I would like to do is make enough money to get enough things to have stuff for my kids so that I could do what a parent wants to do. But then I keep thinking about this because it's been so intense in my meditation span. Like there was something where I was praying and I was meditating. I got to this good spot. I was like, look, I need to grow in this way to help these guys. And I really feel like a really pure kind of prayer meditation thing. And I need to be successful. And then success just started coming or some great perks business wise was like, Oh shit. Wow. And then all of a sudden my meditating and my internal search turned into something different. It was like, stop asking, stop, stop. You don't need anything. And I just sit here thinking, cause I'm talking about my kids and talking about this, they're talking about the realm of possibility. And it was like, well, what if I just never made any more money and was able to still be a good person? And that would be horribly financially in some ways. Could something work and maybe, you know, why can't from my kids, right? Why can't you know? So who knows? World. So, especially if never had a relationship, he's in his early twenties. Be successful. You can, you're an American citizen, you. Yeah, you could hurt people and take it back, but you could help people like you could do whatever you want right now. If you do it right, let's do it. Let's do it. I got I'll help you out. Amy will help out. But it's it's it's such a starting point. And there's so much meaning and drive within that in our world. But then there's this thing that's way up there, way up there, where you don't actually need that. And there's so many people who've been so influential to me, where they didn't have that, you know. Or they walked away from that, and they were still able to find good. So I think the possibility is finding the good. And as much as I believe that, It's and that's the intimidation. I say this earlier this morning, right? Yeah, right. Yeah,

Lindsey: 1:23:07

yeah. And is it possible that that you that I, that we can be supported by, by life, by earth, by the divine and not have to and like, can we actually turn it all the way off? Like the

Steve: 1:23:27

hustle or the whatever and let me say this to you because I don't know if your audience knows this and you have different people who know you first off when I met Lindsay, we were in a squat and me and some other dudes were like, let's be punk rock and then you guys went and worked at spiral and then ended up owning it. You guys get married, you own a business. So to me, you talk to me about possibility. You guys did the impossible. That's so tough. Having twins! I've never done it. But I can't imagine two crying at once. Two being hungry at once. You know, one being happy and then you got to walk away from him to go talk. You know, it's like that's that's insane Right, so that like and now doing this so I mean geez But what I remember seriously, I already said this was when I stopped drinking You said no. No, it's good. Lindsay. Lindsay was like, no, it's good. It's good And then you said you know what? So I was like man my band you were like, you know what those guys were assholes And I knew you didn't mean it like they're bad people, but it was like, if that's where you need to start to believe to do something new, you should. That's how I always saw it. And then I remember we were talking about the drummer of that band. I won't say his name because he passed away and I was making fun of him. I was already sober. I think we were, we were in Austin at spider house. I go, man, the guy's pickled in his juices. And you go kind of like, you like pass out in a truck and some guy's robbing you and pulling your pants down. I was like, Oh yeah, cause that was me. Maybe, maybe I, maybe, yeah, yeah, I seem to be talking trash, but you know, and I think about that because, you know, people talk about grace and all that sort of stuff and getting, getting a couple of buys. my life is very lucky. Um, you know, shit. It's, I don't know how everybody's doing from that. But like when I would go in to spiral and you'd see like Frank or somebody and just be like, man, good. Yeah. You know, it's cool. You know, the change. But you started from the spot you stayed at 1921. And it was just like, that's crazy, you

Lindsey: 1:25:58

know, that's crazy. Yeah. And I mean. And just like I would think you would say the same thing, you don't know how it all happens, really. Right? You're just kind of like, I mean, I'm just kind of following. I'm still doing that. Following it into spiral, following away from spiral. I think that is my biggest lesson is not clinging. You know, that's my practice is what can I not cling to? Because I was. Yeah, I owned this business and it was my identity and now I'm like, Oh, I got to let it go. So, And really, it's not even important, you know, I don't even want to talk about it anymore. So then, it's, I'm on, I'm on a path of like, what's the next thing I can like, not cling to? Well, I guess it's

Britt: 1:26:50

kind of time to start tying up. Baby's gonna wake up pretty

Lindsey: 1:26:53

soon. I can hear someone whimpering outside

Britt: 1:26:55

the door. We've got one more question for you. Uh, is there a book or music that you're really loving right now? That

Lindsey: 1:27:02

you're like, you know, obsessed with?

Steve: 1:27:07

So this book I read every day that was given to me at a Kriya Yoga book. I don't even know what it is, but this lady was illiterate. Ram Dass always talks about her. Her name is Anandamayi Ma. And so, so Anandamayi Ma I'd heard about through Ram Dass and had looked at her stuff and, you know, you like one thing on Instagram figures out that you like this. So some of her stuff would come up, but she always looked so peaceful. I went to this Kriya Yoga thing. And I asked one of the people that I said, how come there's no stuff on Anandamayi Ma? And the lady said, do you love her? Do you love her? And I was like, I guess so. They go, well, we do have stuff. We have this book. So she gave me this book. She said, give a donation. And there were two books actually, but this is one of them. She said, give a donation and just give a dollar. So I gave her a dollar and she gave me this book. So Anandamayi Ma was illiterate. Uh, but she was like this enlightened person. And I don't know a ton about her, but. She, uh, I tried to read her words. Of what she said, and it's translated from Bengali, I think. The more I talk, the more I'll be ignorant to the actual following of her, but there's that, so I meditate. I meditate every day, and then I read that. Okay, our

Lindsey: 1:28:24

final question is for Mila and Jack. We like to end with a question for them. Would you rather... Teleport or be

Steve: 1:28:34

invisible man. These kid questions are always the real question. You really got away. Yeah, I'm gonna say invisible after giving this little bit of thought that I've given. And here's why. Yeah, if I would teleport, I could only see myself using it for selfish reasons. And if I could be invisible, I could be nothing. But of course, if I were either of them, I'd probably be selfish. But like, you know, thinking about that, if you could be invisible, I'm sure I would do something like, you know, rob a bank or something. And so much for the spirituality thing. I think karma has a purpose. I got this ticket. Maybe you'd give

Lindsey: 1:29:13

it away though.

Steve: 1:29:14

But um, no, no, no. But, but, but if you could think about like the invisibility, it's like, wow, I could I could really be nothing. Maybe there there's

Britt: 1:29:26

something to that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, man. And we can't wait to see what you do next.

Steve: 1:29:30

Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait either. I hope it's good. You guys have more faith in me than me. And man, I really appreciate you guys a lot. You're awesome.

Britt: 1:29:42

Awesome. Thanks, man. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll talk to you soon, bud.