Jaymee and Lacee: Empowering Lives through Spiritual Growth & Relationship Wisdom

In this Can We Start Over Podcast episode, Britt and Lindsey sit down with Jaymee Carpenter and Lacee Dilmore to discuss their unique journey and how they found themselves in a starting over space.

They share their experiences of working together in a treatment center, their spiritual practices, and their relationship's impact on their work.

Jaymee and Lacee also discuss the importance of selflessness, meditation, and a strong sense of self.

As a couple and partners on a mission, their lives are completely intertwined, and inexhaustibly fascinated by each other.

They both have private practices, offering PsychoSpiritual Mentorship, helping people navigate their circumstances by integrating a well-balanced psychological and spiritual perspective.

Follow @loveistheauthor and @unconventionalgardener on Instagram and reach out to learn more about their mentorship offerings. Check out their podcast Love Is The Author.

Listen in as they delve into their story and the transformative power of starting over.

We also dive into:

• Starting over in relationships and career
• Navigating attention and focus on their relationship
• Leadership roles in a treatment center
• Moving to Ojai and finding their home
• The significance of their current residence and its healing impact

Ready to find, follow, and unleash your creative essence?
Take your seat at Lindsey's upcoming workshop, Touching Into Creativity.

Want to start your podcast but feel lost on where to begin? Let Right Kind Podcasting help! 

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We'd love to hear from you! What do you want to hear more about? What do you love? Have a topic request or a guest suggestion? Please shoot us an email or DM on Instagram.

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Transcript

Lindsey: 1:20

Yeah. You know who my dream like podcast guests are? Yeah. KRS One. No, like, KRS One, Primo. I

Britt: 1:33

actually just sent Jamie, uh, the Mortgage Free

Lindsey: 1:35

song. Oh, cool. I was going to say, I was going to say Tony, 2 Chainz. Yeah. Um, Paula Abdul, John from New Kids on the Block. Fife, R. I. P. I'd talk, I'd talk to Q Tip. That would be tight. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'd talk to Nas. That would be tight. Mm hmm. Color Me Bad would be cool. I actually saw, if they're like performing, there's one of those things somewhere. I must have seen it on the way to Joshua Tree. There was like one of those 90s tour things, and it was Color Me Bad. But who

2:10

was

Britt: 2:10

in Color Me Bad that ended up being?

Lindsey: 2:12

Oh, literally no one. Oh, really? Like, they're all available.

Jaymee: 2:15

Oh.

Lindsey: 2:17

You might be removed. You know what? Gosh, the person in Color Me Bad that I liked, so inappropriate. I was like eight years old. Why did I have a crush on grown men? I don't know. Uh, with the guy with the curly hair, and he is not a transcript. Kenny G lookin ass dude. He's a Kenny G lookin ass dude. Yeah.

Lacee: 2:36

Ooh, I can't even tell you. Huh. And I'm

Lindsey: 2:39

bald. So. Yeah. That's a change. I know. I think about it every day. I picture you. That's why I'm always putting that curly wig on you, giving you a flute and a silk shirt. I don't think he had a flute. He didn't have a flute, but he's a Kenny G looking ass motherfucker. He doesn't have a flute either. What does he play?

Britt: 2:58

He plays a flute looking ass saxophone.

Lindsey: 3:02

Oh, got it, got it, got it. Soprano. I thought he played a clarinet or something.

Britt: 3:06

It's not as cool as a clarinet. Saxophones are cool, right? Saxophones are the coolest. Yeah, they're the coolest. Even when they're straight. Oh, I see. Yeah, okay. They're pretty cool. Yeah. Anyway, welcome to the can we start over podcast?

Lindsey: 3:23

My name is Brit And hey, y'all, I'm Lindsay. We're so glad you're here. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for listening to us ramble on about whatever nonsense. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here. Please rate and review the podcast on wherever you listen to podcasts. And then why not share this episode with a friend. All those little steps so simple for you and they help us so much and hopefully You're getting something valuable, or at least laughing at our nonsense. My ego

Britt: 3:53

wants everyone to hear this, so please put it out there. Send it worldwide. Tickle

Lindsey: 3:57

my ego. Didn't you hear we're trying to get Nas on? We're trying to get Phife Dawg R. I. P. on this pod. And

Britt: 4:05

not that you're not

Jaymee: 4:06

enough.

Britt: 4:07

A lot more would really help listener wise, so.

Lindsey: 4:11

And we love doing it, and so we want to continue to do it. When you share it, when you like it, when you throw up that rating and review, it super helps us. Also, follow us on Instagram. You can find the podcast at CanWeStartOverPod. We share all about the newest episodes coming out. Follow me on Instagram. It's lindsayakey. That's where you'll see me talking about the things I talk about.

Britt: 4:37

Five

Lindsey: 4:37

Dog, mostly. It's a little bit, it's like four parts Five Dog, one part... Body Wisdom, and then one part kids running around. Body

Britt: 4:46

Wisdom, now who are they? Is that a hot

Lindsey: 4:47

new rapper? Body Wisdom was on tour with Color Me Bad. Sick. In 1994, but then they had to stop. So now they live in Duluth, and they have a, an auto shop, and they named it Body Wisdom. Oh, man.

Britt: 5:02

Yeah. That's great. I'd love to see their artwork. I'd love to see that

Lindsey: 5:05

billboard. Hey, I don't follow you on Instagram. What are you on Instagram? Oh,

Britt: 5:09

it's j. brit underscore roboshow. I'm not gonna spell it for you. You just have to figure it out. You

Lindsey: 5:15

can find all this in the show notes, too. So, click em, link em, like em, love em. What do you share on Instagram?

Britt: 5:21

I share photographs of the things I take pictures of because I'm a photographer and an audio engineer, baby. I'm a record producer and I do not have a ponytail. Wish I did, but I don't.

Lindsey: 5:35

You could have a ponytail. For anyone who is listening to this, which is everyone that's listening to this, This is an audio only podcast, which maybe you're already fucking bored by that. Because now everyone wants a video podcast, but, Britt's bald. And I, I didn't want y'all to know that. Obviously

Britt: 5:53

you do.

Lindsey: 5:55

I did want you to know it. I don't care. Maybe Britt didn't want you to know it, but he doesn't have a ponytail. He doesn't have curly hair. He has...

Britt: 6:03

Zero hair. Um, but that's fine. I'm not worried about it. I've been living this way since I was 19, so...

Lindsey: 6:09

And really, when you were a baby, too. And when I was a baby, yeah. So most of your life you've been bald. Right. Am I

Britt: 6:15

dying? Am I about to die? I

Lindsey: 6:16

mean, I know I'm dying, but am I No, absolutely not. Bald people live a long time. Oh, thank God. Romtos was bald. Oh,

Britt: 6:22

you're right. Thank God. He was 88, right?

Lindsey: 6:25

Yeah. Maharaji was bald. That's true.

Britt: 6:28

And he was eternal.

Lindsey: 6:29

Yeah, Kenny G was not bald, though. And is not, I don't think, actually, I'm not sure. And the guy from Color My Dad also, I guarantee you, is still not bald. He has great hair, even though I guess those things don't

Britt: 6:40

really relate.

Lindsey: 6:42

Okay, thank God. Basically, the answer is you never know how it's gonna turn out. That brings us to our interview today. Which is the perfect follow up to last week's episode. If you haven't listened to our episode from last week, where Britt and I talk about what it's like to be married for 16 years. Listen to it. And this week is the perfect follow up because we talk to our friends and a couple that live here in Ojai, Jamie Carpenter and Lacey Delmore. They are a couple who are truly committed to walking the relationship and spiritual path with awareness and integrity. They're super cool. We first came to know about them through their

Britt: 7:21

podcast Love is the

Lindsey: 7:23

Author and also on Jamie's previous podcast Mystical Cynical, so we already knew who they were we were already like feeling like we liked them and then

Britt: 7:35

And then I went to a public meditation that Jamie was leading in a park. What

Lindsey: 7:41

happened there? What It was

Britt: 7:42

fantastic. There was a big group of people that met there. Some of them knew each other, some of them didn't. And we all told our deepest, darkest secrets. We cried, we laughed, we hugged. It

Lindsey: 7:53

was wonderful. Is like exactly what you needed coming back from a long trip and landing here. It was.

Britt: 8:00

Yeah, it was great. It was, because one of our, our main things when we were going to find a place to live was we have to find some sort of community, people that are into some weird shit that we're into, you know, we found them. It was perfect.

Lindsey: 8:14

Opened right up. Yeah. I'll say my experience is, yeah, we just, I felt this kind of like instant connection with them where that feeling where it just feels at home with someone, even though they're new, like. You know you're supposed to know them. And it feels totally natural. They're so welcoming, they're kind. They're also cool and funny. Which is so important when you're looking for a spiritual community that it's like not stuffy. That it's still fun and They're artists, they're musicians. We just have so many things in common with them, so we knew we needed to have them on the podcast. They're super cool people on every level, and as a couple and as partners, they both have private practices that offer psycho spiritual mentorship, helping people navigate their circumstances through integration of a well balanced psychological and spiritual perspective. Once you hear this episode, you're probably going to be like, I want to work with them. So make sure you follow them on Instagram at love is the author, or Lacey can be found at unconventional gardener. And also you have to listen to their podcast, which is also called love is the author. And while we're all here together, I want to make sure that everyone knows about my upcoming online workshop, touching into creativity. Space is now open. I want to make sure everyone that wants a seat can get one. Join me on October 19th for a transformative two hour experience that promises to dissolve those pesky blocks to creativity and really get your creative juices flowing. We'll dive into some somatic movement, some inner inquiry, and... Create a connection with your guides, with your source, so that creativity can flow. And don't worry, it's not as complicated as it sounds. You're going to learn how to connect with your body, with your senses, call in those personal muses and guides, and tap into that magical source of creativity. What I found from years of practice is that really tuning in to the felt sense of experience gets that creative juice really going. Once you learn how to do it, it's amazing and you can start having a creative practice that is just your entire life. Like I mentioned, This is all happening online, so you don't even have to get dressed or leave the comfort of your own creative sanctuary. It's only 45, which is less than the price of a fancy dinner. But with way more creative nourishment and something that you can take and cultivate and grow beyond the two hours that we'll be together. So don't miss the chance to connect with your inner creativity and find your flow. Join me for this evening of transformation, connection, and maybe you'll even find a few awkward dance moves. If you can't make it live, there is a replay available, so there's really no reason for you to not be a part of this. Who knows, you might just meet your community of creative seekers and embark on a journey of self discovery together. If you're ready to unleash your creativity, reserve your spot now before it's too late. I promise it will be worth it. Let's dissolve those blocks, move together, laugh together, find the link in the show notes. This talk was so amazing. Jamie and Lacey are a grounded and real couple, but they have such deep wells of knowledge and space holding. All right, let's do it. Let's do it.

Jaymee: 11:58

I don't know. Did you meditate? I was wondering if that's what you're doing on the way over because we were like quiet on the way over and No, maybe

Lacee: 12:06

that's what I was

Jaymee: 12:07

doing. I was thinking you're sneaking one in. Do you usually

Britt: 12:11

meditate after sessions? Is there like a way that you like kind of clear your energy after you've like taken on everyone

Jaymee: 12:16

else's? No, no, there's no, um, I do it in the morning and then the rest of the day the world I'm, I'm, I belong to the world. Nice. And um, I think there used to be clearer Like, uh, we need to clear energy, or like, oh, I'm carrying somebody else's stuff, or, you know, stuff like that used to happen. And now it's pretty vague, like, what's going on any time ever with anything. Yeah. It's all like, who knows what it is. Yeah. So I've, I've stopped trying to chase, like, the invisible, um, remedy. You know, to something that is just like, who knows where this is coming from, you know? Yeah, yeah,

Lacee: 13:02

yeah. The works actually become like more, it helps me feel more alive than, than like, the energy is taken away. It's kind of like... Oh, good. Yeah. But it's taken a long time

Britt: 13:14

to get to that place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's something you probably had to work on. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I still feel, I'm not in the same field as you, but like when I'm, you know, in a situation with friends and we're talking or, you know, having something serious. Or family. It takes me a while to kind of like decompress.

Lacee: 13:32

Oh, those I need to decompress from. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. a little less separated, yeah. Yeah, no, but like somebody asking for guidance on their issues is like, it's so much, it's inspiring rather than like my family baggage, which is like. You need a lot of reprieve from, for sure.

Jaymee: 13:50

Yeah, there is a certain awareness around being the designated person at this point in this person's life who's seeking us, like, because the situations that we encounter pretty regularly are, um, incomprehensible, you know, um, within people, like they're in something that nobody knows that they're in and it's something that's It's an in one of life's incomprehensibles have found them, and then there's an, uh, a witness in me now that, that recognizes the extraordinary circumstance of being that person at that person's in that person's life at that time, to help them sort through this. Like, it's never lost on me. And it feels like a, um, I always credit it as being like a representation of the work that I've done on myself, not like some happenstance or luck or wow, oh, now that I'm here, I might as well do something. It's always like very specifically that feels like I've been an ambassador or something for the universe to be able to help because of the particular way that my story has gone and the specifics of it seem to tend directly to. whatever people are in. And I don't get stumped that often, which is strange. But it is, I think it's probably a result of like selflessness practice because when there's no self, you, you become more a part of the universe. And I feel like what's available in the universe, as far as the wisdom is concerned, you just have more access to. And so selflessness and meditation and maintenance around that in the morning for me, it's the only consistent thing I've done in my life, I think is that for like, 18 years and now it makes it to where any situation, um, I walk into, I'm sort of confident that at least I know my own story, you know, and I know I have access to my own story and, and so I know what I can bring to it and what I can't, you know, and I think that would probably cut out a lot of confusion in the world when it comes to help, right, you know,

Britt: 16:00

right. Helping yourself is the best way to help everyone else. Yeah.

Jaymee: 16:04

That whole thing. Yeah,

Lindsey: 16:05

definitely. Yeah, so I want to know, can you tell us a little bit about that story and if there like, was there a starting over moment or several?

Jaymee: 16:15

Yeah, definitely for me and I think for our relationship. Yeah. Our relationship is formed in a starting over space and, and it's, um, in the last seven years that we've been together, it's, uh, clear to see how our union and, and us being in that start over place has created a, a lot of good in the world. You know, I want to be humble, but I also want to be accurate. You know, it's very easy for us to see now the effect that, that her and I. are having on the world as a couple when we discuss our relationship on on our podcast and also just as representations of help that don't impose their relationship on the help we both kind of have this way in our relationship where we're not like You know, there's, there's an unnecessary amount of affection, I think, that sometimes couples cast out into, uh, scenarios to be able to say, like, things are good, or, like, just to have that, that public representation of how your relationship is doing. And ours, uh, never needs, hasn't needed to project that onto the scene. I think it's made it a lot more, um, her and my offerings a lot more accessible in that way too, because people aren't feeling like they're, you know, like a third wheel or something. Right. You know? Yeah.

Lindsey: 17:44

Tell, I want to hear a little bit more about that.

Lacee: 17:47

So, I'm, I'm briefly going to go back to the, the starting over part. We got into a relationship seven years ago by, for me it was by a pull of something that I was not a part of, like I was not a part of it. We were friends and co workers and, and friends and co workers in a really fun and creative way at this treatment center that we were working at and really having a fun time serving people and creating a culture between him and I and a good friend of ours at the time. And

Jaymee: 18:26

um. Big Malibu Center. And the, what was that, you or me?

Lacee: 18:30

It was me. Oh wow. My stomach gurgled. Wow. For the

Britt: 18:33

listeners. ASMR.

Lacee: 18:36

Yeah, Big Malibu Treatment Center, you know, Big Malibu Treatment Center and, and I was in a relationship and I had just started working there. That was really a starting over for me personally because I, I was stepping into my therapy career very seriously and was offered this amazing opportunity at this treatment center. And

Jaymee: 19:00

after like seven years of you being in treatment already and working in treatment as not a therapist, but yeah,

Lacee: 19:08

every other role. Yeah. And, and they really gave me the space to like be myself at this place that I started working out with Jamie. And we fell into this friendship, and

Jaymee: 19:18

There's a great story, actually, when she showed up to her first day of work. Speaking of starting over, I didn't even know her, and she was at the gate. And she was trying to figure out the passcode to let her in, and I pulled in behind her. And then I just ran up and I was like, Oh, hey, are you like, I, I I'll type in the code and I literally opened up the code and let her into my life. It felt like, you know, like it really started there. Yeah. You know, the passcode.

Lacee: 19:46

Yeah. Yeah. That's a cute, that's a nice visual. You should get that tattoo of the passcode.

Britt: 19:51

Oh,

Lacee: 19:54

that's good. That's so different. I think it's

Britt: 19:55

4297.

Lacee: 19:57

Should we go

Lindsey: 19:58

there?

Lacee: 19:59

It's on burned down since then.

Jaymee: 20:01

It literally burned down the Malibu

Lacee: 20:03

Fires. Um, anyway, so, and then it just like literally one day I went to go see him. at Ahia, um, the spiritual center in Pasadena with our friend and, and out of nowhere I fell in love and it was bizarre. And

Jaymee: 20:23

I just come out of a relationship. I was just coming out of a marriage almost. It was nine years and we had done a significant amount of work in the year leading up to that. And then I, we had just kind of. Announced to the kids that were splitting up and, and, uh, and then she came and saw me perform. And I guess that's, that's where that kind of falls in my timeline also.

Lacee: 20:46

Yeah. And most of my startings over have felt like that, especially in the last, I guess in the last seven years of practicing, spiritually practicing is like, I don't, I don't have much of a part in it because if I did, it wouldn't, it wouldn't happen. And so, but that was, that was like a big. A big starting over for me, a big letting go of what I thought my life was going to look like. He has two children. I never thought of having children. I just thought the person I was with prior to him, it was just like we were just going to live kind of a basic life. And all of that fell apart in this. This creative, exploratory life birthed itself with this person that I literally thought I had no

Jaymee: 21:34

interest in. Yeah, no, and that was the extraordinary part of it is that I, I think, I think probably up until that point, I hadn't had a relationship, a friendship with a girl where actually there, there hadn't been some, even a brushing of like, in my mind, Oh, is this, is there something more? I'd never had that with anyone before Lacey. And we felt like genuine, like, um, Gender didn't even come into it. It just felt like, um, Two travelers working in the same place. Thank God that's out of the way. That we're not attracted to each other. So we can actually really genuinely exchange notes. And, and at one point, I remember we talked about a relationship and it was also the first time I'd ever talked with somebody, um, of the opposite sex who's attractive about my relationship and not trying to go, yeah, I'm in a shitty relationship, uh, you know, and, and trying to use it as a line or just like as an opening and saying like, well, I'm kind of available, you know, I think, but I also had been in a longterm relationship for about 10 years at that point. And prior to that, I was not sober and not a great person. Um, but anyway, to have that really genuinely with somebody and we would exchange notes about our relationships because we were both in relationship stuff, but it was like so obvious that we were not trying to win each other over with our stories. And we could explore that and exchange notes. And we were kind of, I think both of us, at least to the conversations that you and I would have about our relationship. I would immediately take something good from that and try and plug it back into the relationship that I was in to see if, you know, it helped it at all. Like I wasn't using, um, our conversations as a, an, uh, justification to get further out of, of my marriage. And so it existing in that pure land to begin with very extraordinary, auspicious beginnings. I feel like, you know, where there isn't hidden motives and it's all just what it is and it's respect. And I, I invited her to a sweat lodge. I'd been running sweat lodges or co facilitating sweat lodges in the mountains. And I would take all these newly sober and newly sort of balancing out from their mental health. A very crazy thing to do, load up a van full of these people who are just balancing out, take them into the mountains. and go to this sweat lodge and all pile into a tent in the dark with lots of heat. People on varying medicines, you know, psychotropic and without incident. Three years of running these things without incident, not a single person ever getting harmed, not a single person ever freaking out. People from all these different walks of life. But anyway, I was running those and, and I invited her. My mom came to visit me at the center. And she was gonna come to the sweat lodge. And it was a part of my job that day to take people up. And I, I asked Lacey if she wanted to come to this.

Lacee: 26:01

And of course, I was like, no, no, and then you're like, come on, come on, come on. Cause that's, was a lot of the beginning of our relationship is me saying he, him being a very yes person, me being, being a very no person. And I went and it was extraordinary. Also represents, the, the lodge represents a starting over, certainly, for everybody. And that was like our playground for the next year, and, and a great playground to get close and let go, and At the

Jaymee: 26:31

center we were sort of like I don't want to say mom and dad, but I want to say Yeah, we were a

Lacee: 26:35

mom and dad. We always have been. Yeah. We represented that archetypally.

Jaymee: 26:40

Yeah. And I was going to say, even like, but it also kind of feels like big brother and big sister because like the authority aspect of parents, I don't think we have. Like people. Oh, that's true. Genuinely wanted to be around us. Almost like you're hanging out with your older brother, your older sister. You're going to learn something. Your cool aunt and uncle. Right. Yes,

Lindsey: 27:01

exactly. Aunt Sandy, uncle Frank. Like a

Lacee: 27:04

corrective parenting experience. We've been

Lindsey: 27:07

corrective. Like a re parent. You're re parenting. Yeah. Yeah. People. Probably yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

Jaymee: 27:13

Yeah. Yeah. The only thing that we can share is what we've done with ourselves. And, and at the time that we were both doing this also, like I was the spiritual director of the center and she was like the therapist that everybody wanted to work with and we were just, it felt like we were recreating the 60s because everything I'd read about was like these people in the 60s who were, you know, troubadouring psychologists, like, you know, challenging the system, yeah, challenging the system, sort of working with the dying, working with psychedelics, all this stuff. I always felt like something that I missed out on and that we were getting to kind of recreate together at this place and so, so our starting over came with like a lot of attention, you know, there's a lot of focus on, on our relationship and actually the job got involved at one point and said when we did start dating. They, they tried to stop it. Okay. Because they were worried about something happening, and then it affecting our position there. Not with the company, but that we might not work out, and then be weird, and then the Jamie and Lacey. Like

Lindsey: 28:21

the whole vibe would... Yeah.

Jaymee: 28:23

Deteriorate. Yeah. So we're kind of navigating that and our relationships that we just come out of and having a lot of focus and attention on us. Just as people at the center, we would show up somewhere and, and eyes would be on us as to like watching, not in a bad way, but just almost in a, what are they going to do next? What are, where are they going? What are they, you know? The newer clients would really glommed on to us. So yeah, it was weird to learn how to parent. We were kind of parenting at the start in a treatment center. Those who were kind of broken or parentless, we were kind of put into this dynamic role. And then we would leave and completely be the same people that we were in the center in our off hours. There isn't like a turn off switch for us.

Lacee: 29:14

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a big, that was a big starting over professionally. I think for both of us personally, for both of us spiritually, for both of us. That was

Lindsey: 29:24

our moment. Yeah. And so then leaving there whenever that was, did you then move to Ojai together or did that happen?

Jaymee: 29:36

We got an apartment together in the Thousand Oaks area in Newberry Park and we lived there a year. And. It was really cool, the apartment we got, we knew we were home because we, we drove in to check it out for the first time and it was like this small city of apartments, it's like 500 apartments or something, almost like a city and, and everyone that we ran into was Indian. And we're like, this is like being in India, we gotta go, we gotta live here. We got out of the car and there's like smells and like, it was just amazing. I was like, Oh my God, this is just going to feel like we're like, yeah, it was sweet. It was very sweet aspect, uh, of the beginning and we, yeah, we lived in an apartment for a year and then we had our eye on Ojai. We came here for a visit.

Lacee: 30:23

We had, we, we left that treatment center, we were asked by a friend to start an outpatient drug and alcohol mental health outpatient center in Santa Barbara and of course I was like no and I was going to be the clinical director and he was going to be the spiritual director and they were

Jaymee: 30:39

building it around us so she was like no but I was like going this is so extraordinary like they're building a center around

Lacee: 30:46

yeah she was just like I want you guys to do this thing and and then of course I eventually said yes and so. So we needed to move closer to there and we just happened to come visit here. And my mom kept saying like, you and Jamie, you guys need to move to Ohio. And we were like, we've never even been there. She kept saying it. And so we came to visit and then Jamie said, I want to die here. And after just a day of hanging out and I was like. Okay, and within not that long we found like the best spot and are still in that spot today And and so we were closer to Santa Barbara

Jaymee: 31:20

and we watched as soon as we decided we wanted to move here We watched the fires the fires came in And so, uh, the Thomas fire was happening here, and so, after making the decision and even looking at a few apartments, then the fires happened and it was like completely encircled in flames, and the fate of Ojai was, everybody was wondering, we were all watching it from the news. And it stayed protected of course, and here we are, but after the fires died down and it, and it made it, we came here and found our place, yeah, that we're in still to this day, five years later. Yeah. That you guys...

Lindsey: 31:58

Yeah, and it's so, such a lovely spot. Thanks. Yeah. It's

Britt: 32:02

perfect. Yeah. That's funny, we were telling you when we were over there that we had actually, uh, been admiring your spot as we drove by. Oh,

Lacee: 32:09

that's

Lindsey: 32:09

amazing. Yeah, it's definitely one of those places where I think if you're, or if you're like tuned in and opened, you see it and you're like. Someone lives there that like I'm supposed to know,

Lacee: 32:22

you know, extraordinary amount of, of, of ritual and healing has gone on.

Jaymee: 32:30

Yeah, it's, I almost want to make it a historical landmark. I mean, it's insane. Insane how many people have shared their feelings in that home and how much, um, has been let go there and how many protective prayers and, um, my, my teacher Lama Lenong has visited there a few times and perform healing ceremonies. So yeah, it's like one of those places that kind of like, I hope that somehow we get to hold on to that corner. Yeah. Even if we move out, like. Just kind of keep it going there because now our neighbors are really, they're, they're Ram Dass people also. You guys know them, Chris and Genevieve. And they were so excited we're coming over here to do this podcast, they, they, they both said Genevieve when I was with her yesterday, she's like, they're, they love each other. She said, they're cool. She goes, they love each other. And I was like, I know. I know. Yeah. Yeah. That's how you guys come off. Yeah.

Lacee: 33:31

High five. That's good to hear and unfortunately it's refreshing to hear. I know.

Lindsey: 33:37

I know. And well, this podcast isn't, this episode isn't about us, but it's just, it's interesting and it's beautiful to see the different ways that people come together because we started dating when we were like 23. Wow. Is that right? Yeah. 23. 22 and 20. Yeah. And we got married when we were 24 and then we bought a business three months later. And so we had like, our practice was work, right? We had like, no, that was the practice. And our relationship was really just a pattern. Like an unconscious pattern from our own childhoods. Right. And then it like, it took all these like awakening after awakening and starting over and starting over to be like, I think that what we, whatever we're like, resenting each other for is bullshit. We're just bringing it from our past. And the truth is that we have something cool here and we actually like each other and it's a lot more fun to like each other. And then, and then it started, became the spiritual practice. And now here we are. And, but it's like, it, it takes, sometimes that's the way the relationship goes. And sometimes you meet when you're on a different path and that's the way the relationship goes, but it's like. No matter where it starts, hopefully there's a window of awakening to where you're like, Oh, I'm just projecting my shit on to you. And it's so amazing to be able to see that now after, I mean, we've been like living this different relationship for at least five, like the last five years, but to just be like, Oh, I'm doing that thing, pulling away, you know, and you just see your, whatever your parents. Yeah. Yeah.

Lacee: 35:30

Yeah. But you not only see it, but you make a commitment to not, not stay there and stay in that. To

Lindsey: 35:37

see it lightly also and just be like, there I am, there's that. So many people are married to each other. You can hate it also or you can be like, there's that thing that I do and I'm going to not do that. Yeah. Right

Jaymee: 35:48

now. Yeah. So many people are married to each other and they don't like each other. Yeah. And they don't even know it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's nice to hear you guys like each other. When we see that more

Britt: 35:59

now, too, and other people, I would love to help them. In some way, you know, find what we did. Yeah, we're going to do an episode on that actually. Oh, you definitely should, but

Lacee: 36:11

great. Yeah, I think, I think you like, I don't remember exactly what you said, but it made me think that like, I mean, so much of our, our, our, our starting overs, which, you know, I, I recognize it. All four of us probably relate to starting over like every day we wake up, but our so many of our big starting overs have Corresponded with like our spiritual practices elevating, you know like they're just so like in alignment with each other and and and I think people just when they get in relationship, there's There's just a level of, um, staying asleep that's just so easy. It's just so easy to stay asleep and just be in the thing and do the thing, because the thing is the thing. And people don't even know there's a whole other thing. Within the thing that they're in that's magical and extraordinary and a totally different but totally the same. Like people don't even know. Yeah. Absolutely. So, so go for it. And tell, and tell

Lindsey: 37:17

people. Yeah, yeah. Well, how, so how does your relationship inform the work you do in the world? Because you, it's like you're working, you're doing this, a similar or an inline thing, right? Yeah. And it is together, but you're also working separately.

Jaymee: 37:35

Kind of, I think we mostly work separately and then we're kind of, we do the same thing separately and, and our community, the community that we work with, they've, a lot of'em have come through our podcast and then so they can have their choice as to who they relate to when they hear us do our episodes, which we call Yawn and Loco. Just a nod to John and Loco. John and, no, sorry. It's called Yawn and Loco. Yeah, to John and Yoko. For, uh, you know, just because of the extraordinary nature of, it's a play on it, like I'm kind of, Yawn is like a sarcastic name for like, somebody who's meditative and like, boring. And Loco is like, You know, somebody who's female hysteria, but we're so our lives are so intertwined and we happen to do trauma resolution with people, um, as a profession and we do it out of our home. On Zoom or in person, separately, not ever together actually. We

Lacee: 38:42

have a couple clients who will see me once a week and then see him the next week. And it ends up being

Jaymee: 38:48

interchangeable.

Lacee: 38:48

Really cool and has been successful. Um, if they can withstand that, you know, cause we're so alike but we can also be really different in our work. But I think the relationship. has informed the work. For me, mostly like the, one of the greatest things that's come out of our partnership for me is working with no reference points, like really letting go of like strong held ideas about what relationship is. And we certainly have like some foundations that we work with, like monogamy and stuff. Maybe that's it. I mean, we don't, we don't

Jaymee: 39:28

like, yeah, we're not trying to overcomplicate. Or, I guess for us it would be an overcomplication of things, like one relationship is enough for us,

Lacee: 39:38

one person. Right, right, we're just like, yeah, right, right. That's like, that's more of why we chose monogamies, because we don't want to deal with other people's neuroses. But like, that's been like, probably... The most helpful thing that I take into the work from this relationship is, like, just letting go of, yeah, just, like, these long held ideas that we have about who we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to be. And, like, maybe redefining that or letting those go or playing with those. Including, like,

Jaymee: 40:11

the safety of not resolving something.

Lindsey: 40:16

Ooh, let's talk about that a little bit more.

Jaymee: 40:19

Yeah, I mean, that's something that got uncovered, I feel like, in this relationship, where I think in every other relationship and every other one that I had ever heard anyone talk about, they're always like, You know, um, I can't let things go, I have to talk about them right away, and, you know, that kind of thing. And it's like a fun, it, it just highlights an insecurity, and it also highlights that there's some external validation point that will make you okay, that you're not okay without, and that, what does that say about your relationship? That you don't feel like, that an argument. That it can't be held, you know, and I think it's just people just don't want to deal with the uncertainty and we experimented over and over and over again with uncertainty, I think, and without having certain criteria for. Um, what is, uh, what means a relationship is healthy. The old criteria at least of, of sort of, I think probably what a lot of people look for is consistency and life is so fluid and changing that if you, if you don't trust in the relationship that you're in and you think that, uh, that, um, one disagreement can throw off the whole thing, you know, you're, you're going to be chasing a dragon, basically, you're just going to be chasing. Something constantly to validate that it's okay and so her and I would experiment with not Talking about things at times when they're difficult when it can't be Solved not coming up with something when something can't be solved I think you know and I don't know if that's done often I think people get at least Placeholders or something to make them feel comfortable for the moment and those placeholders aren't rooted in anything and so they they they They extract at a certain point and expose that thing that was there all along. Her and I, I think the health of our relationship has been from the beginning, she was practicing before we even got together when she was living at her parents and I was living at my parents after both of our relationships had blown up and we weren't in a relationship yet. She was practicing in her room in the same way in the morning before she left for work in her childhood room. You know that I was practicing in my parents house at that time too, and we were both serious practitioners who were doing What we were doing to make certain to maintain our own health and integrity with ourselves and our own growth and that has been like the model for our relationship moving forward is Exactly how we were at the beginning before we were in each other's lives in this way What we were doing to take care of ourselves in that moment has maintained Uh, um, it's priority. So we're both people who have separate spiritual paths. A lot of them intersect with people like Ram Dass and her interest in Tibetan Buddhism and both of our interest in sort of creating a new, a revised psychology that's maybe more modern and, You know, but um, we stay separate and maintain our, our practice and share the best and at times the worst of, of what we find in that and pull each other through or, you know, um, it's really great to have that and not to maintain these separate paths and everybody thinks about it as being like this thing that constantly is merging and it's more like for us, it's like looking over at each other while we're. You know, it's just like looking over every once in a while and going, Hey, do you, yeah, oh, no, okay, oh, yeah, oh, oh, oh. All the stuff. Every range of emotion. But we're on these separate paths.

Lacee: 43:56

Yeah, it's a quick place to apply all the stuff we're reading. And, and we do that. We apply it pretty quickly and like experiment with. You know, a truth we just read and see how that works out. And I guess that could also lend itself to the work too, is like, well, I've just experimented this with my partner in depth and, and it worked out and.

Jaymee: 44:22

Her and I don't talk also, like we're in a relationship, I mean, I guess that's the feedback that we get is that. That people don't hear relate people talk to each other who are in relationships without sort of certain nuanced tones and um, sort of structured, um, almost like babe kind of stuff. Like, you know, people don't and, and, and we just talk to each other like we're colleagues most of the time, I think on the episodes and, and, and, and, and in our work with people and that's what it feels like. It's like I'm with a hot colleague who I belong to and so I can call her hot and who we, yeah, it just feels like a, um, a very safe zone of constant, uh, fascination also. I'm like deeply fascinated with her way, you know, and it's seven years later and I don't know what she's going to do next in the garden. You know, I mean the literal garden, like, I don't know when she's going to like go tend to sacred activity and like, I'll see her through the house still like lighting a candle or going off and tying something up, but maybe a bundle or something. And I don't, I go, what's motivating that? It's so beautiful to see that this something is. is pushing her along in this way, and, and it's like she's already in love. Like, she's in love already, and so it's so easy to fall in love with something that's already in love. You know? Yeah.

Britt: 45:51

That's really cool to hear you talk about that, and doing it with such intent. I feel like we were kind of in a similar way. But it was unintentional because I had no spiritual practice for most of my life up until the last few years Oh, wow, and Lindsay had started on that well before me maybe the last say five or six years Does that sound accurate? And so I was kind of watching her and yeah We were running in parallel and I admired what she was doing, but I also had a lot of pushback Oh, you know me growing up being an atheist and just like Not being open to things and really pushing back. Yeah. I was like, what is she into?

Jaymee: 46:27

Wow. You were

Britt: 46:28

scared for her. Yeah, I was scared. I was like, is this it for us? Oh. Sometimes, you know, I was just like, and then I'm like, no. You know? And then, as, uh, she would play like Ram Dass in the car, and I'd be like, oh my god, all of this, none of this doesn't make sense. This is all like. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm not pushing away from this at all, you know? Wow. And most of it doesn't even like. Yeah. You know, what I would think of as, you know, before, before now, I thought spiritual was just like being a Christian or, you know, or like having a religion as your spiritual. Right. Now I don't even, I mean, the two can cross and do a lot, but for me... It can be its own thing that isn't specifically,

Jaymee: 47:04

doesn't have the baggage, you know, that's so cool

Britt: 47:07

to hear. Uh, and once I let go of that baggage, then, you know, we've merged, uh, in that our spirituality practices, I guess. Yeah. Lovely. Yeah. Um. And we are helping each other in like different, different ways. It was really interesting to hear, hear that. Yeah. Cause I can relate, but like in a, in a different way.

Jaymee: 47:28

That's beautiful. Yeah. I

Lacee: 47:29

loved hearing that. Well, and it's so inspiring when somebody is practicing, like your partner is practicing, but they're not like. Pushing it on you. That's more interesting. Like, I'm sure you, you had a, there was more of an opening to be more interested in what she was doing. Cause she wasn't like, Hey, come over

Lindsey: 47:45

here. Right. Every once in a while I'd be like, sure. Write this down. Totally. It's been around three

Jaymee: 47:57

times. Go in the bathroom and say Ram Dass's name three times in a row while turning off the lights. And

Britt: 48:02

then glow with love for one hour. Exactly.

Jaymee: 48:06

It's cool how we all met up. I mean, how we're all, how we're connected through Kiritan with the Love Serve Remember people now. Yeah. It's

Lacee: 48:16

so cool. Oh, it's all. It's all Maharashi, which Maharashi would say it's all God. I mean, uh, as far as I'm concerned, yeah

Britt: 48:28

This is crazy, yeah, you know what I mean right now what we're talking about a year ago I'd have been like, what are y'all talking? Yeah, and then it all came like, yeah, it all pulled us together Right, like in the most like perfect Obviously, like, oh, this

Jaymee: 48:43

is real, you know, yeah, there's some things that can't be denied and, and, you know, that, that currently. Both of my primary examples on this path in the last 10 years have been Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and Ram Dass, and I'm now, in the last 10 years, I've been invited into both of those worlds, um, minding my own fucking business, reading on my couch and meditating and just being, um, inherently inspired by both of them, and then it's almost like without any direct influence. Defining motion or method or anything like that, both of these worlds pulled us into the story, you know, and so I'm hanging now with the Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's students and publisher of all of his books and, and, uh, and then, you know, Kirtan's with Raghu and one of my closest friends, uh, and family, she's like family, is now dating Raghu and that's Katrina. And so it just all like, it's amazing to watch what you're talking about now, recognizing like this is undeniable, right? I spent my whole

Britt: 49:54

life denying it and denying everything until something just, it was in my face since like, yeah, this is happening so

Lacee: 50:01

much more fun when it happens that way. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Britt: 50:04

Right. And I think it was me like becoming open to it that made it more real to, you know, it was like not denying it when you just surrender and let it happen. Yeah. You realize you, I could have been doing that my whole life.

Lindsey: 50:18

And it's luckily, it's like the opening makes life decisions a lot easier. Like you mentioned Lacey, where you're like, you had no say in the matter seven years ago or whatever. Like you were led there and you're just kind of following. And when you have some practice, it like kind of, it makes life's decisions a little easier because it really does. It's happening. And, and we, we have a say when we're like co creating when we're conscious, you just trust, but it's, there's so much more trust involved and then you can actually follow your intuition and like know that you have intuition instead of thinking, Oh, my mind has to like come up with every solution. And that reminds me of you saying like, Sometimes don't find a solution in your relationship, which is so freeing because really that part that needs to like, that's like forcing the resolution is just your personality wanting to say, I'm right though. Right. And I'm real. Yeah. I'm real. Yeah. I exist. Yeah. Because if, if we don't, if we find a resolution, then we both exist here.

Jaymee: 51:25

Yeah. I think you get to a place where you don't have anything to prove anymore. That you're kind of you foundationally secure in who you are in your own story that you can experiment in this way because it's almost like You know, everything that I used to do used to be based in getting a result to be able to almost have a landmark of my existence, you know, and and Working all that stuff out with myself in the last few years in this last decade of healing which has been Extraordinary and it's monumental and but going through all of that now. I'm so comfortable with myself and And in this relationship in general that I almost just want to see what's going to happen without doing something. You know, it's like, I want to see and Chogom Trumpa Rinpoche used to call this like allowing sparks to fly. Like, you know, see where the unknown and the known maybe meet up at a certain point and sparks fly there. And so I'm kind of curious about that. Like this, even this, this t shirt that I have on, I'm not like a, You know, a diehard Dice fan from like, you know, the nursery rhyme shit that he did in the 80s that made him famous. The coolest thing about Andrew Dice Clay and why I bought this shirt the other day is that he put Rick Rubin produced an album of his. Comedy, but it's him bombing for two hours and they put that out as his comedy album. And that to me is like, let's see what happens. Like, you know, we're always putting out things that are like the height of successes and here's like a comedy, a comedian struggling at one 30 in the morning in the small room of the comedy store, um, and being heckled and, and kind of yelling back. And Rick was there for it and saw this extraordinary thing and was like, this is more a representation of like the truth is sort of like the unknown being more represented in culture. And so we were out shopping the other day and I saw this shirt and I was like, I have to get that. Because I have a whole new respect for Andrew Dice Clay, who puts out a record of them bombing. Right, right. Rick Rubin.

Lacee: 53:35

That's him. It reminds me of, like, you said something about us not, like, worrying about consistency and there's, like, the Gandhi quote, which I'm sure I'll butcher and you can look it up, but it's something like, he says something like, I'm not, I'm not committed to, my commitment is not to consistency, it's to truth. And I'm like, that's, like. Totally our relationship like so it does make things a little Like like that like where you're recording the bomb and like that's more interesting to us than like Consistency and doing the right thing and like yeah doing the thing you should be doing like I love that about Jamie I love that he loves this t shirt for that very specific reason and likes the inconsistent Nature of existence rather than trying to make it consistent. Oh

Jaymee: 54:32

I have a I have a student who is a He's been at Columbia for the last three years, and today he's moving into professing. He's teaching the freshmen. It's their first day, and he's stepping into a role of a professor, but he's gonna teach the oncoming class. This is so remarkable that I have to report this, but today, currently, at this moment, there is a, a person who, and I'm gonna say his name, his name's Finn, and he, he was raised to be a, an Olympic skier. And he, he was, got to the height of that, uh, career and found that it wasn't for him and walked away from it at its height and went back to school and was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And then he ended up getting into Columbia, which is like insane because you're like one out of every 800 people or something gets chosen to be there. And so he's there at this school. That's really expensive. And he's done a couple of years and. Now he's teaching this oncoming class and this is like the height of accomplishment and he's still sort of like working with that feeling of like, I don't know the unknown and and and the scariness of it And so our work together in the last few days has been for him He's decided that he wanted to use that as a predominant quality in teaching like us all acknowledging the unknown in the situation at a height of academia to where the known is almost like it's almost, uh, implied that that's the whole reason that we're here, but he's going to start with the fundamental notion of not knowing and that not knowing is okay and safe. And he's teaching that at Columbia today. Thank you. As a result of this kind of acknowledgment of the unknown and, and, and all of what it gives. And I thought, you know what, you guys, I was talking with you guys at the meditation that we had about... My, my recent rebranding with the unknown as Mother Unknown. Yeah. You know, and, and just adding that quality to because it's been so good to us all and it just gets this bad rap and the unknown is where everything that we love has come from. And it's of course where everything that we love goes back to, but how bad could it be? It's where it arose also, you know, and it's always there for us. Like you guys have made it through, I'm sure like us so many situations that you weren't trained for. Yeah. Yeah. And you just, it's almost like reaching into an empty bag and just pulling out thing after thing or solution after solution. And that's our existence and it's all come from the unknown. Our, our, our, our almost foundation is the unknown, you know, and it's yielding all this goodness. And so, you know, in a, in a society where change is, you know, it's, uh, people don't like it and they fear it. You know, it's almost bad math to fear the unknown because of how good it's been to us.

Lindsey: 57:25

Exactly. Exactly. That's so beautiful. And so the unknown like in kind of going back or circling back to. This creative process because you are both practitioners, but you're also both artists. And I'm saying that almost with a question mark because I don't, I can just feel that you are. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So how does creative process come into play when you're working, you're in your own devotional practice? Or you're working with other

Jaymee: 57:59

people. Yeah, I think creativity used to be subjugated into certain mediums or certain amounts of time that you can give a day to doing something that everybody kind of like collectively sees as art. Sort of like drawing, writing, whatever it may be, singing. And I used to think about art as that, this thing that you do over here. The way I feel about art now is it's in, it's the art of living. I'm always in art. The art of how to pour a cup of tea, the art of how not to say that thing that you want to say. You know, it's always. Um, everything has become art and everything's become spiritual practice and it's all become one thing. And, and I liken it to like, sort of like having, you know, at the beginning of our spiritual practice, like it seems very daunting because it seems like there's a whole world now to paint a new color. You know, we don't worry about that. You just paint what you're doing right in front of you. And pretty soon the whole world takes on this color. It all becomes the same thing. It becomes spiritual practice, it becomes art, it becomes living. Spirituality for me is like so not a mystical thing now. It's like completely about being human. It's a science of being human. You know, really taking the opportunity to be human and take it all in, you know, and not just isolated bits that the ego, uh, focuses on. So, um, it's all art now. And so I think that when I see her paint, which is often, and it's like a part of her, I would almost say your like health or it's a part of regular expression when I see her do it. It's like. The art of Lacy is setting up a zone to paint. The art of Lacy is already in motion. It's, it's hard to tell the difference between when she's painting and when she's cooking dinner or walking the dog. It's... Really artful living.

Lacee: 59:53

Yeah, it feels that way. I mean a specific example for me of like what art means especially for me it like I I have a License, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and she's not bragging obviously work really hard to get that process And also had a lot of grace in that process, but I, in the last year, I still have a few clients that I do traditional, I mean, I do the same thing with everybody, but it's under a license, but I don't, anybody new who comes to me, um, I don't offer my therapeutic services. I don't offer working under license. I do spiritual, psycho spiritual mentorship with people and letting that go. Like trusting that like that has never felt right to me, like ever going to graduate school never felt right to me. I was just totally doing the thing, like I've just my, most of my life did the thing that I thought I was supposed to do that would keep me like quote unquote safe. And so letting that go and like, I have a goosebump saying this, like letting that go and like trusting myself to just not have that safe, whatever, that illusory safety net. It was like probably one of the more creative things I'd like it'll it like just birthed a creativity in me to do this work more intuitively like an intuition is creative to me and like Just more with more trust and more flow and like cuz I never planned ever like when I had to do groups when I Was there but like there's no planning and no worksheets. Like I just was such a rebel with that stuff and like a quiet rebel, but but so anyway trusting that process is like really felt like a step into like my creative expression with the work and like It's really just like me being in relationship with my intuition, which is like the most creative thing I can probably do when it comes to our relationship.

Jaymee: 1:02:04

When I was perfect for your karma, because I had burned down, I had experimented enough with life to where I had had. And then I had, uh, ran away from home at 17 and lived on the street for a year. And then I had. You know, put a life together and then I'd become a drug addict and I'd had some successes and in music and and then I'd burned all that to the ground and became homeless again and then started up another life. So I'd had all these lives and now 10 years of recovery into that new life and working in treatment centers and building a music career and being married and kids and then also. After all of those, I stepped away from all of that and, and left all of those identities behind at a certain point and survived it again and ended up in this treatment center, working there now, a year after walking away from those identities and meditating for a year and just like letting go of all of the former Jamies and doing anything other than anything I'd done before. And that led me to a year into that, going into that Malibu treatment center. As a guest and walking out as a spiritual director. That day, and that's where I met her so I'd already tested by the time we got together. I had gone Hey, it's safe. Like it's really safe to fuck around. Like it's yeah, it's totally survivable Yeah to challenge what you think is safe and to to take a risk. I've survived

Lacee: 1:03:39

100 percent why he's in my life he's just like always pushing me to like not directly so much anymore, but now more indirectly like Having me challenge what I think is, is safe, you know, and so like, that's really where like my creative expression comes in is like stepping into like what's doesn't feel.

Jaymee: 1:04:03

Well, and conversely, her influence on me has been, and that safety place has allowed me to sort of, we have this, we have this funny reference that we work with of sort of like, it seems like all of the, the things that go bad in life or movements or individuals or whatever, there's always a point where like things are going so well and then they just like. Push it that next day in an unnecessary trespassing. Kanye West.

Britt: 1:04:33

Yeah.

Jaymee: 1:04:34

Yeah. Or just like, oh, there's so many people who just. It's all going so well, and then they just did this next, this extra thing that they didn't need to do. Upper limits. Yeah. Yeah. Even cocaine cowboys, like, you know, even drug dealers, like, have something really good going, and then they just get ambitious. Mm hmm. And it always fucks everything up. And so, her in my life started, like, I started thinking about, well, what's... Yes, I... I feel free to do anything, but what's necessary? And she helped me with what's necessary, like, sure, be free and experiment, but like, also there's Know your social security number. Yeah. Know your voodoo. Right, right, right. Yeah. And so, so her coming into my life has probably sustained my life. Because of how giving, uh, or just how, um, there's no way to say it without... Boundless? Yeah, how boundless my, my, um, my concern for others and my, my care is. And I can just give and not think about self. And she's allowed me to think about self, which will probably keep me here a little bit longer. But the amount that she allows me to think about self is just sort of like, hey, there's a you in there too. There's a you in there too, and your kids want him around and all that, and so as much as you want to give and all that, like, there's a body in there that needs to be cared for, and so she's helped me with that, and sparks have flown, certainly, and it hasn't always felt good, but I've always trusted that she is doing it because she loves me, whether it's convenient or not.

Lindsey: 1:06:20

Yeah, and you need both, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's where the balance comes in. I think that we kind of do that too. I'll be like, let's go for it. And Britta will be like, let's like run the numbers a little bit.

Britt: 1:06:32

Yeah.

Lindsey: 1:06:33

Yeah. But the unknown, we're all going to be okay. Yeah. Eventually it all washes out.

Lacee: 1:06:38

Right. Yeah. It's an amazing.

Jaymee: 1:06:43

And that's our philosophy also is just that no one's ever right and everyone's right. All the time. So, you know, I used to, I think throughout the course of this relationship. I, I think I looked for all the validating points as far as like being desired and craving time and all that, I looked for all that and the more I tended to my own heart, the less I've needed from her and so I, I'm, now we can really get into disagreements about things And the state of our relationship is not even a topic, you know, while, while we're going through something. It's, I don't even think about, wait, where is this going or how do we, how do we make sure that we, this doesn't turn into something bigger. It's always just safe. And I think it's, it's with the experimentation of. allowing the unknown to become a bigger part of your life. And the way that I've done it, and I think that she might agree, um, in her own life, we work with the prayer, I don't know. That's the prayer of all prayers. It'll end any difficulty or disagreement at a certain point is, and it's creative. It allows you to hear somebody else's point. You can still know what your experience has been, but you don't ultimately know what's right for any situation. And that has been such a saving quality of, um, our endurance in this relationship is sort of never feeling like the other person knows more than the other and, um, not casting that on the other. You know, as an expectation.

Lacee: 1:08:38

It allows for a lot of spaciousness. It allows for a lot of spaciousness. I mean, we even take that into the work of like, I don't know, like, like people come to me because they think I know more and they'll present me with a situation and I'm It's no less. I'm like I don't, I said to somebody yesterday, I said, I don't know, but I'm here to help you, you know, unravel, like have a relationship with your intuitive heart so you can decide what's best. That's really, that's all I'm supposed to

Britt: 1:09:07

do.

Jaymee: 1:09:08

Knowing hasn't helped anything. Just really like ultimately it's like knowing leads to disagreement and it leads to closed arms. Because it's, once you know, then you're in a fixed position and it's unmovable and it just hasn't been good to us. Yeah. To know. It's divisive. But we

Lacee: 1:09:28

have to have compassion for it though, I think, because wanting to know is often a response to people going through so much trauma in their, in their... younger life and feeling so confused and, and things are so out of control that the, the ego's desire to know is like, it's sweet. It's innocent. It's like, Oh, I'm just so tired of this being confusing and give me something solid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Jaymee: 1:09:55

that's sweet. Yeah, we're having sweet relationships with our ego now. We can afford to have sweet

Lacee: 1:10:01

relationships. The reciprocal relationship with the ego, the reciprocity, which I love and I use all the time. That

Jaymee: 1:10:07

was a beautiful share of yours.

Lindsey: 1:10:09

Thank you, yeah. Annie, girl, I do want to know how y'all both, uh, got into Ram Dass and Maharaji. Yeah. And, or. How

Lacee: 1:10:17

did you, how did you? My first memory of anything related is I had this phenomenal, um, teacher in college and undergraduate, um, contemporary psychology who just talked about the Dharma. And I didn't just talked about life. I was just like, what is going on? What is he talking about? I've had two incredible teachers in my life. He was one of them, and my high school English teacher, and they both passed, like, kind of out of nowhere, but he, so at the end of the school year, I was in a, in Paradise Found Spiritual Bookstore in Santa Barbara, and I really wanted to get him something, and like, we weren't even that close because I was so shy, but I was just like, this motherfucker is so cool, And I saw it be here now and I looked through it and I was like, this looks cool and like something that he would like. And so I bought that for him and I gave it to him. And it always kind of stayed in my mind. But I think maybe Jamie was

Britt: 1:11:19

like the access point for me, really.

Jaymee: 1:11:21

Like I was sort of I had a Ram Dass. Look going on at the time of the center that that we were friends to and I was sort of Ramdossing around that center. I was really inspired by him and I was listening to lectures in 2013 when I did that thing that I mentioned earlier about stepping away from my identities and sort of just praying and meditating for a year and taking on jobs and And just, um, watching a world that I had created, uh, crumble away, and a new world being formed of sort of like nothing with any verifying results externally, but just an internal feeling of, of rootedness that I'd never had. And Ram Dass came into the picture at that time because my father had said, like, Oh, you got to get be here now. And I heard those three words together. And I was like, Wow, I was obsessed. I mean, unjustifiably sort of obsessed with something that I had no idea about. Just those three words. I was like, Oh, that sounds like the book. I got to get that. So, if you know the Be Here Now book, it's drawings and stuff, and it's like, it's not a normal book format, and I didn't know that at the time, so I'm looking in libraries, public libraries, for this book, and no library has it, and it's like, oh, maybe over in Glendale, like two cities over, they have it, and then, you know, I'd call over there, I was obsessed trying to get this book, And just from the mention of it, and uh, never got my hands on it, and of course later on I would realize why, because of all those drawings, I'm sure in a library people just like, pull that out, and you know, and rip out pages, and so, I finally, my father got me a copy, and he signed it, wrote at the top like, something, some inscription, and, and uh, and that was a decade ago, and I, I read it, but I mostly read the beginning part, which is like the back story, where it's actually like, kind of more like a book, Where he tells about how he was a somebody and then kind of headed into nobodiness through the care of Maharaji. And that was the only part that I read and I was, it was enough to get me listening to his lectures. So I just would drive around LA, go to like Self Realization Fellowship, Lake Shrine, or um, I would go to Forest Lawn Cemetery to go meditate in the, in the Japanese, uh, Buddhist garden. Or the Buddhist Cemetery. I was just doing weird shit like that. You know, just almost like trying to connect with an invisible community. Driven by I don't know what. But, but um, knowing that Um, all the places that I'd been, all the friendships I'd had, all that stuff. We're in drastic need of revision and, and maybe like maybe there was another family out there and I kind of really felt connected to these people who had been practitioners or yogis or from another time. And so Paramahansa Yogananda is one of them, um, endlessly fascinated by him. And then, so I was, I was driving around sort of LA just in that mind state and, um, I would listen to his lectures on YouTube. And, like you were saying earlier, Britt, about listening to Ram Dass, it's just like you can't disagree with it. And it's like, he's the

Britt: 1:14:35

coolest, it's just, it's

Jaymee: 1:14:37

so cool how he can turn on a dime with some really beautiful information that's heavy and then laugh, you know, or then make some joke or, or sort of, um, laugh at himself. Or laugh at all the hymns he had been and holding all this information also about, you know, this esoteric wisdom and, and, and, um, you know, structures of Hinduism and he just knew so much. It was so cool. I was just obsessed with, with listening to him and it was the chief source I feel like of inspiration and that also kind of ushered in Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. I was interested in Tibetan Buddhism. And so I was, uh, I'd been practicing in it for a while, but I was interested in deepening my practice. And so Pema Chodron's book came up and then she started talking about her teacher, Chogym Trumpa. And so I'm like, Oh, I want to go to the person behind the person. And I fell into that whole thing, but that's how Ram Dass kind of came onto the scene. And then we turned a whole treatment center for three years. We basically turned it into like these early Ram Dass gatherings that you would see in the 70s of, you know, him at his father's farm or whatever. We were doing that at the center. And it was really cool to have this like incubator of, you know, direct studying Ram Dass and like hearing about this great person who lived before and then being able to kind of enact it and, and, and see that it's just as relevant today. In waking up the youth as it was when he was around, you know?

Lacee: 1:16:09

Yeah, I think I, like, it was definitely the YouTube lectures, my, my, my person into the spiritual world was Marianne Williamson and A Course in Miracles and listening to that like a. The driest white man read that book on YouTube and, and, but I think where Jamie kind of went into Buddhism, I, I like was like, Oh, I need like, which makes so much sense that I'm like, because I'm like quiet and reserved and structured. And so I need a little bit of like love and outward. And he like, it made sense that we both went in those ways, not that we don't cross the into Buddhism and, um,

Jaymee: 1:16:49

But it's so funny, you got into Ram Dass and then I got more into Chogym Trumpa, and we didn't even know that they knew each other, that they were teaching back to back at Naropa and that they were like, so esteemed, they esteemed, uh, each other. Yeah, I

Lacee: 1:17:04

can, that, yeah, and of course that stuff continues to happen, but I was listening to these YouTubes, which I still like, still listen to him primarily on YouTube, like, it's so funny, but, um, like the long. The long drawn out lectures, but I was listening to it going like this is so much this information is The information I need to be giving these people that I'm helping, not like all that whatever, I have no idea what I learned in school, stuff like clinical, dry stuff, like, I was like, this is like, this is what they need to know, they need to know about love, they need to, like, it just was https: otter. ai And then you're hooked like you're either hooked or you're not and I was like hooked and I'm still hooked and it's still my number one and it's still the thing I return to and still the their faces him and Maharaji's faces are the faces that I rest in when I'm suffering and it's been Extraordinary. But yeah, I think, I think it was Jamie inspired.

Jaymee: 1:18:05

Besides all the great information that he gives, he would also give these examples about doing the job that her and I were doing where he'd go, yeah, and then I pretended like I was a psychologist for a little while and I was doing that and I would sit across from somebody and say, well, I know some things and then, you know, and he would just describe that process of what happens that. Without him, there would be no reference point that, that you're not an insane person who's talking to yourself or having all this stuff. He immediately legitimized the idea of seeing that when we step into these things, we're bringing a certain identity and all of what it implies. And, and him talking about that was so freeing because it was like it pointed to another world that he had found that I could be in sessions with people. I could step outside of that thing that I think I'm supposed to do and be more of a friend. And I think that's what we've done is sort of a reference for guru in, uh, Chogam Trumpa refers to it as spiritual friend. And I think that that's kind of what we are for people is just without you having to do any work. There's love from the start. Without you having to do any work or any qualifications, no criteria, you are loved from the start. Yes, this is a transactional experience. It's an hour where we sit across from each other and you've paid to have our lens on, on your particular story for that hour. But outside of that, try me. Try me. You might be at my house on Wednesday, you know? Which is free of charge. You might, like, you'll have access to me. You don't need to do anything. You're, once we meet, you're in our hearts. And it's amazing to know that about another human being. That I'm in a relationship with somebody who I know that anyone that's entered into our sphere, we're talking about people from seven years ago. Like, we're talking about people who OD'd. Um, after leaving a treatment center that we were at who were like a 20 year old, those are like the saints in our world now, you know? No one gets left behind with us and there's no criteria to meet. And so, Varamdas has inspired that, you know, stepping outside of the role and becoming, as he says, like more

Lacee: 1:20:18

soul. I was in school and like nothing. I was like, this is, I feel like this is what I'm supposed to do, but it's not speaking to me. And then he starts to talk and it's like speaking to my intuitive heart. And like he tells a story about his brother being in the psychiatrist and he goes, the psychiatrist appointment. Oh, the psych ward. And Or the psych ward. And the psych. But the psychiatrist, like, he's like, my brother thought he was Jesus. And the psychiatrist thought he was a psychiatrist. I'm like, any, and I'm like that. That's my experience of life is like the roles, the souls not roles thing just like blew me apart and I, and I was like, that's what I, that's been my experience as I was raised in a very loving home. I, I had loving parents, like it was, it was as much as I want to rip on it sometimes. It was a really. It was a, Gabor Mate would disagree with me, but it was a pretty idyllic childhood even though I, there was suffering. And so I had some sort of language of the heart that like my schooling was not speaking to. And so he just like spoke directly to that. And it's amazing that it still

Jaymee: 1:21:30

hasn't gotten. I think, yeah, and he and I were similar in the way to, of the way of already having been so many people and gone after so many things and thought that that was what it was and then had stepped away from it successfully and found like a new ground and so I related to him in that way and then I could kind of be, um More of a living maybe embodiment of what he was doing in the 70s I was I could kind of have access more directly to that because I was at that same point of readiness and exhausted so many Pursuits egoic pursuits, you know Trying to find spiritual freedom,

Lindsey: 1:22:15

right, right, man. And you want to talk about like starting over, you know, and just like being right on the razor's edge of like, yeah, starting over. And now like Ram Dass's whole life can be like summed up in a Wikipedia page and it seems clean.

Lacee: 1:22:31

And like a lot of it starting over was messy as fuck, even up

Lindsey: 1:22:36

to like pre stroke and after stroke. And that is what is makes. It's so appealing to me because that human aspect, like he was doing it, you know, quote unquote wrong a lot of the time, but like experimenting openly with just being alive.

Jaymee: 1:22:55

Yeah. Thank God for those stories where he shared about going through a breakup, you know, where like he found love kind of Dassness with a woman. And, and, and he had, uh, gone to all the insecure places that he had ever gone to and hearing him be human in that and knowing that that's a part of the thing and it's not like once you're Ram Dass you're not there, you know, was so like, he just, he's brought humanity back into spirituality, right? And that now. Seems to be like the, uh, what we're finding also as, uh, anything that can be measured is just in how much we're taking part in the human experience rather than sort of, um, Compartmentalizing it. Or having aggression towards it by looking for something else, you know? Mm,

Britt: 1:23:45

mm

Lacee: 1:23:46

Maharajah

Lindsey: 1:23:53

is kind of the same too. Yeah. You know, he's not like a perfect. Guru Saint

Lacee: 1:23:57

and oh my God, he was mean and just so funny, like the most insane. He my, my love affair with him. Really deepened, honestly, in this, like, last year. Like, I was like, yeah, I love him, but, like, Rom's my dude. And then, all of a sudden, there was, like, this, Whoa, okay, you and I are in a deep relationship. And, yeah, like, Jamie calls them, like, dirty saints, but, like, the rebel rousers, and just, like, the... I'm gonna fuck with you, and it's the best, it makes so much sense to me. Have you read Whisper in the Heart? I haven't, but I've, I've just been like, I'm almost three pages out of Miracle of Love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and so it's just like, that book is just, witch ragu. It says a lot of that stuff in there. It's like, exaggerated, but, but I don't know. I think it's still extraordinary. And, and, and again, like throws everything out, throws all the reference points out. And that's really good for me because I've been addicted to reference points to keep me safe. And like, it just gets all thrown out. You read a book like Miracle Love or Whisper of the Heart and you go like, you go, you either believe it or you don't. You know, and yeah, and I and I don't think that that's a choice that believing or not like you just do or you don't and and I just like fell into belief of like, yeah, I believe every bit of this, right? Yeah. And it immediately expands your experiences as a human being like, oh, okay.

Jaymee: 1:25:26

It was funny when we were at Kirtown the other day, all together, and they were talking about formalities and they were giving somebody shit, like Raghu was giving somebody shit about having their back turned. To Maharaji, and, and you never do this, this, and in India they would, you know, and all that stuff. And it's like Maharaji himself would totally reject the notion of having to do things in a particular way. Yeah. Like, that's all the stories. It's like, you guys are making a big deal about this. It's not a thing. So it's ridiculous. You know, that, that goes on. I love that at the center of it, that's what I've relied on more than the retinue or those who are left behind. The legends, the, the, the loves to remember legends who have now, we're all friends with, you know, I. I rely more on Maharaji's teachings directly rather than what people's interpretations are of them because the stories that are direct from him are always him turning people away from an importance on him and a formality being thrown out and showing you that you can't count on anything and that's like the teachings, that's like the grace And so, so I, I, I, you almost have to have a more direct experience with the guru himself rather than, um, you know, those who have come afterwards because his example is groundlessness. And he goes, who's this? And then people go, well, that's you, Maharaji. And he goes, no. It's like Buddha, you know, and then Buddha is seen to be a Christ. And so it's like, who the hell? They're all one person, it's all the same thing. And, and, uh, and form and formality are, um, are things that I, I think it's important to know the customs. And then also experiment with going beyond those in people's comfort zones, you know, that was not the sentence that I meant to say exactly and it's wording. Oh, it's great.

Lacee: 1:27:33

Okay.

Lindsey: 1:27:34

Yeah. Well, yeah, there's like this importance of sacred ritual, but then you like take it so seriously that it can neuroses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love what you said about belief. Like. Yeah. That's what I kind of tuned into in the last few years, like I'm just gonna believe in everything because we with duality, we throw everything into the pile of truth or not truth. Like, oh, this is real because I'm like quantifying it on some right. Whatever scientific scale or something, and this is not true because there's not that scale yet. Yeah. And belief just, you can throw it all away and be like, the only truth is like this energy of love that runs through all things like that spark, you know, that's the only real truth. Yeah. And from there, I'll just, I'll believe in every damn thing. When we were in

Jaymee: 1:28:25

your home state last, when we were in Austin in April. I had the, I had a realization in a metaphysical bookshop that that's what we do for a living is help people believe. Somebody asked me that, the clerk asked me like, oh, hey, what do you do for a living? And I was like, I help people believe. And I never said it before like that, but I, I didn't feel like getting specific and being a role. With him. So I just wanted to tell him the essence and that was what it felt like. It's like, I think that's what it is. And belief is such a tricky thing too, because it's like belief without attachment, I guess, to take it even a step further, right. You know, belief without attachment to the result of anything that your belief brings. So, which is a hard sell, I think.

Lacee: 1:29:17

Yeah. And yet belief actually. Helps with attachment because I think like it's so expand like that. It's been expansive for me. Like a lot of my, my leaning into spiritual practice has been driven by physical pain and which really can limit or any, I mean, any pain trauma, it just can limit your. Your view of life and so belief is has just like this spaciousness to it and this like expansiveness to it and what I'm even what I'm currently studying is showing me how limited we're using our our mind like we're using our minds in a really limited way and that there's like This deeply, which I think people experience actually in psychedelic experiences. I think we touch into the limitless nature of mind and that's what's really attractive about those experiences. But we, We don't practice that in like our day to day living. And so I just like belief feels like it's like reading these stories about Maharaji and believing them. Your mind can't help but just be so spacious and go like, okay, well, what, like how, what else? Like

Jaymee: 1:30:33

what else? Belief is almost like, it's like belief is just existing. Like, it doesn't go beyond that, like the belief that, that I think that we might help people find is that they're alive, you know, and that you have an opportunity and that you're asking the question says that you have intelligence and that it's a form of faith just stepping into a question. And so you're alive and, and I think maybe that's what all the work is just pointing people towards is like just taking the opportunity of being alive. You know, and um, and having all the choices possible within that, which means having an open mind. In order to have limitless choices, you have to have an open mind stepping into that kind of potential. And, uh, when those two things come together, it's, it's, uh, it can go any direction, but you're alive is the core of it, you know? So presence, mindful awareness. Seeing the interconnectedness of all things. Those things are found just purely in existence. And, and, um, I think that's ultimately what we end up teaching people. Through decluttering, through making peace with their story. This kind of space to be able to recognize how good it is just to be alive and have an opportunity. Yeah

Lindsey: 1:31:58

so i'm specifically interested in like the the aspect of belief and faith and how you guys personally relate it to someone in recovery or addiction and like Because it's, it feels like it's a, it's a tight rope a little bit, you know, not falling into a dogma, but having faith. How do you walk that?

Lacee: 1:32:24

I think him and I both, Jamie through his, through his just own life experience. Um, I guess mine through that too, I mean, I, I still don't want to give school that much credit. But, um, I also started working in addiction treatment when I was 21, which blew my mind. So that was really like my life experience, but she didn't

Jaymee: 1:32:46

get into it because like there's some alcoholic in her family that she wanted to like heal. So she took a job as a rehab person.

Lacee: 1:32:55

Oh, I'll just work in a rehab. That's Um, but I think we both got a really, um, great understanding of psychology. Like, and, and like, cause so much, I, I always tell people, I'm like, it is very psychological and we treat it spiritually again. Not that the two are separate, but it helps people in the entry to explain them as separate. And so I think we both had a really good understanding of, like, pain, and so we could, like, go through people's timelines and show them, like, Hey, do you see how, like, this, how you, how this, how you're here, how you got here and that you're not in this and we can't even really blame your parents and, and, and pull out through the psychology, like, pull out the little miracles, pull out the, like, the moments of faith, pull out the, where faith may have served, and so I think We just, we came in with a really good understanding of, again, like, both of those worlds that are not separate, but, and like, describing psychology in a really, like, easy, digestible way, and the, and also, like, taking, I just decided to take I mean, listening to Ram Dass, like, and that, that was so digestible to somebody who did not grow up with any religion, my, nobody says God bless you after somebody sneezes in the house, I mean, it's just a very, like, My dad's like, what? You just be a good person to be a good person, which God bless him. I mean, he's kind of right. And, um, God bless him and, um,

Britt: 1:34:41

take

Jaymee: 1:34:41

that.

Lacee: 1:34:43

And so, So I think I just, like, naturally trusted, like, trusted myself over time to ask people the bigger questions and immediately saw a starvation in people to be asked those questions. I mean, down to, like, your 20 year old kid that comes in and he's like, You know, it's tattoos all over him and he's hard and you get him in the room and he's just a big old softie and he's desperate for somebody to ask him like, do you believe in something bigger? And almost across the board, I have goosebumps, everybody says yes. Or what do you, I just say, what do you believe in? And I don't care how you, you could say my shoes. And, and people just say like, I believe that there's something bigger going on. And so there's, I just, I think we immediately saw that there's a hunger for that and, and, and my, yeah. Didn't pass it

Jaymee: 1:35:34

by. And my unique story in having been sober for 10 years and then seeing where it can take you and, and. And where the recovery, like the, the 12 step rooms, as far as it can take you, I, I saw plenty of example and I had experienced it myself, what it can do, and it can really make it an industrious person, a sort of app, apathetic hurt person, a really industrious, helpful, compassionate person, certainly doesn't seem to get To the core of why people used to begin with it kind of stays out of the why it just goes like hey Don't worry about it. You're fucked like you're born with a disease and it's incurable So don't even try and figure that out, but don't worry We got this nice fancy wheelchair and it can roll you around town You can still be helpful and blah blah blah But it's you're you're broken your legs are broken and you're never gonna get new ones and I didn't believe that And I had a spiritual background growing up of, uh, I was grown, brought up in, um, third generation Christian scientist. So it's like, um, spiritual healing. They did, they do that, um, rather than go to doctors. And so I was raised in that and, and had also seen where that needed some revision or, you know, needed some more heart or something. And, but I, I'd seen enough examples to, to know what traditional recovery could bring. And so, I think the main thing in the last 10 years that I've been doing with the addiction issue, at least in session, is it's a combination of going through someone's timeline and showing them how many ways that they've been caring for themselves all along. Like, they've been caring for themselves, we, we care for ourselves all day long in ways that we're just not in touch with. We just think that it's maintenance or it's just what you have to do. But there's this caring, you wouldn't do it if at it's baseline, you didn't care about getting it right, making people happy. And we've been doing that our whole lives and so, I go through people's stories with them and show them that while simultaneously, Pointing out that the people that hurt them also have these backstories and so humanizing all of the villains and seeing that we're all one thing and who is there really to be mad at that's alive. You know, so those two processes of sort of seeing how much you care and have been caring all along and that you're caught up in a story where there's no particular, uh, true representation of where to blame and, and that we're all in this together and that hurt people have hurt people and all that. And so it, that's how to work with, that's how I've worked with addiction at least. And it seems also that it's liberating people more from the notion of being an addict or not. Addict is sort of a, uh, clever and a, uh, it's a reference point that we've had up until now to describe something that the AMA describes as being a fatal illness. That's, that's a disease, you know, which I don't agree with. I think that it's all environmental. I think that it's all, um, ancestral. All of it. And another way of saying that is, you know, genetically predisposed. Exactly. And so, in science and spirituality, these things are Continue to meet at these points and, and, uh, I think introducing to people how much they care and also forgiving those people who hurt you because of their backstory and allowing yourself to do that, like it's, it, uh, it creates a new person deep into a story of thinking you know who you were. You know, and that in itself allows people to, after time of abstinence, which I highly recommend to anyone who's had habitual tendencies of addiction, something that would look like addiction. to spend a period of time in abstinence, but asking yourself these questions, doing this particular work. And then at a certain point, what I found in my own recovery was that I wasn't afraid of what was in a bottle. I wasn't afraid of, you know, I didn't think that there was something in the wine that was more powerful than the life and the confidence that I was feeling now in my own story. That it would take that over and it hasn't, you know, I've maintained an integrity with bringing back altered states of consciousness into my life and growth for me and also How the universe speaks to me each day, which is like, you know If I'm tripping on wires or if I'm dropping a dish or if I'm something like that It's the universe is telling me hey slow down You know, people push past those things, but for me, it's like I'm always in relationship with what the universe is telling me. And while I've experimented with altered states of consciousness, I've not only maintained my integrity as a clinician, um, but also it hasn't slowed down my spiritual growth and made me want to move less toward the uncomfortable thing. And that's really the measure, I feel like, you know.

Lacee: 1:40:43

I think also, like, we've, we're really, I think we're doing a lot of, like, teaching people how to be rather than do, you know? And I think that we've, somewhere I feel really confident in us, is like, we've just been, we've embodied really all the practices, we're embodying the work all the time, and so, when we walk into these treatment centers, I mean, we are just like, We're not taking things seriously. We're having fun. We're like these open vessels of love. You have like a new client come in and Jamie and I are the first people to run up and be like, Hey, what's your name? And like, it's an immediate like, We're, we're the same level. There's no authority here. And we, we embody an energy that people go, like, tell me, like, how did that happen? Like, tell me about that. I want kind of what that is. And it's not even really. As much as we are good at saying things, a lot of it has been unsaid, and people getting curious about our way, because our way is just, it's like light. It's not in these centers, it's so much density around clinical and heaviness and authority and education and information. People

Jaymee: 1:41:56

didn't even know we were in a relationship when we owned that center in Santa Barbara and, and uh. Like, for three years, people would see us come together, show up in the same car, and they thought that we were just friends. Because we would never sort of, like, impose even our own relationship on

Lacee: 1:42:12

Yeah, it was just immediately about everybody else. All day long, it was just about really intimately serving, moving, leaning in towards, like, crisis constantly with just, like, love and hugs and affection and But

Jaymee: 1:42:27

uncontrived, not just like, Oh, honey, don't worry, it's gonna be okay. Like I don't say it's going to be okay,

Lacee: 1:42:35

you know? No, I'll be like, bitch, you need to calm down. I love you, but relax. And they like would respect like a young 20 year old. Because it's uncontrived. Girl would be like, okay. Yeah. You're

Lindsey: 1:42:47

speaking my language. And it's not coming from the place of like, I'm, I'm like the healed one. And you're like the broken one? No,

Lacee: 1:42:53

it's just like, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. This life is intense. Yeah. I mean,

Jaymee: 1:42:58

it's really insane. I, to, to one quality that I think is, it blows my mind in, in, uh, we're in California in one of the most contentious places where probably the phrase, go Sue me, came from and, and, uh, In, in all of the work that we've done, which has been moving past what therapy, what treatment centers say or have historically said is safe, to allow people to know that you care about them with unconditional positive regard, that's the, that's the fucking psychology statement for love. Unconditional positive regard. So, um, to, to use that in session or to let somebody know that you care about them has been frowned upon. And we have systematically disproven that. And the crazy thing is, is that we have no complaints against us. We have no, um, no, uh, litigious thing. We actually... I barely have anybody that ever stops working with me. Have I ever had anybody that stopped working with me after one session? I don't. Yeah. People like,

Lacee: 1:44:13

and we've been through some fucking hell shit, It's the most intimate and it's always

Britt: 1:44:18

some like insane shit.

Jaymee: 1:44:19

It's doing all the things that they say not to do. And of course we had to be the people that we are in order to, to be in that limitless space because you have to

Lacee: 1:44:28

have integrity, right? There's boundaries in that. There's like some sort of. energy of boundary while you're saying I love you and I care

Jaymee: 1:44:35

about you. It's truly committing to no harm, but knowing what harm is, like really knowing what harm is and, and knowing that even the areas that don't look like harm could be harmful. It's like having that level of meticulous scrutiny around your methods and what you do, but In 10 years of doing this in all these intimate situations and I've gotten so close with people at tragic moments in their lives and also vulnerable moments in their lives that we don't have any complaints against us, you know, or haven't been in any trouble doing all the things they say won't keep you safe, you know. Yeah, congratulations.

Lacee: 1:45:23

Tell

Lindsey: 1:45:23

us one of those, this can be like, we can wind down after this, but I will tell us if you can like. Like one fucking insane story or what's coming to mind, what feels top of mind?

Lacee: 1:45:35

Well, I just generally a lot of, a lot of death, a lot of, um, overdose, which, I mean, obviously it makes sense, but you know, We've

Jaymee: 1:45:43

personally worked with 23 people, I think maybe more, who we've known their stories intimately and who, and who have, have died, and, um, we've, since we've known each other. Yeah.

Lacee: 1:45:59

Yeah. There was a really intense one where we had a new client come in and she had just tried to hang herself. I was hoping.

Jaymee: 1:46:06

I was hoping you'd share that.

Lacee: 1:46:09

And she wasn't, she was a mother and she's probably in her fifties and she. She got caught, like, in the act of trying to hang herself outside of her home. And, um, came in and was just in disarray and suicidal. Had never been to

Jaymee: 1:46:26

treatment, didn't know anything about psychology, therapy, treatment, or anything like that.

Lacee: 1:46:31

Culturally, it was a very, uh, a different experience for their family. Culturally, and, um, and she was, she was suicidal and saying she wanted to kill herself. And Jamie and I, and, and Jamie led that moment, certainly, but just loved on her, and, oh I, goosebumps again, and, and loved on her, and from that moment on, she, it was like a zap, and

Jaymee: 1:46:56

she, Well, and her whole family who had, or were trying to put the pieces together of like, our mother just tried to commit suicide, or the matriarch of our family, what's going on here, and without, like, these people being sort of versed in healing or psychology or anything. Um, just my mom tried to kill herself. What's going on here? And culturally, I think they're, um, I think they're, I think they're Philippines. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. So, uh, so there was a little bit of a distance there, even with culture. And she came in and she still had the bruises around her neck. And it's like, you see something like that, and immediately, Like, um, the part of our humanity they were asked to deny in that moment is the thing that the person needs the most. Yeah. And so I'm just, I, I, I'm real with her and just like, Oh my God, you survived, you know, and we're, I'm sitting on the couch and we're, we're comforting her and her family who are in that state of disarray that you're talking about immediately have a place where Some place is making sense of all of this in this moment, at least of what we are to do at this point. They're leading the charge and they're caring for her and they're showing us that maybe that's what we need to do is move in. So we're kind of modeling it at the same time of just giving her exactly what she needs in that moment. So, within a week of her being there, and this is our final act at the center actually, I just realized. This was the final week that we were spending there before we decided to go out into private practice. And. And, uh, her family would come by every day to visit her and they'd just come and hang out with us and come and sit in meditation. And, uh, I got a video about eight months after we left that center. And it came out of nowhere and they didn't know this number. And it was a video and I looked at it and it was her and she was climbing a rock wall. Like, barreling up

Britt: 1:48:53

this fucking...

Lacee: 1:48:56

Yeah, that was a good one. A lot of, a lot of young people getting psychotic and, um, you know, like a lot, like, uh, girls, I may have mentioned this on our podcast before, but she like got up one day in the middle of a group and she just screamed like, I'm gonna burn this fucking place down. And like, you know, her

Jaymee: 1:49:18

parents have been upsetting her and all kinds of stuff.

Lacee: 1:49:23

And she was chasing after that, like, you know, it's just people saying they're going to scream, they're going to kill themselves. And in those moments when you're in a treatment center, that's like you got to like immediately treat that moment or you're, you know, it's all like litigation and then it gets all crazy and

Jaymee: 1:49:42

stuff. But first month of that treatment center, that one in Santa Barbara. We were on a, there was a 10 minute break in between groups and one of our clients was walking to 7 Eleven and on his way back he saw a rat that had been hit by a car and it was, it was dying. And so we left the group and we gathered, I gathered up all the clients and we scooped up the rat and we, we sat and vigil. And cared for another living being that was on its way out and everybody related to what it was like to be that rat in that moment. And in our helpless state, we've always wondered like, Oh, I wish somebody would come and save me and we had become that for this rat in that moment. And that was drug and alcohol addiction treatment. Yeah. That was, that was the method of the moment to bring people into the subtleties of life and caring for another being that, you know, people say you should write off. You know, everybody related to that rat in that moment, and we buried it there in the yard with some crystals. And we stayed, clients stayed beyond like two hours beyond when, when group was over, when it was closed for the day. You know, these people who are newly sober, who don't know what they're going to do with their lives are, everything is there. The caring is there. They're exposed to, you know, something that all the drug use and abuse couldn't take away. You know, it's still intact. And

Lacee: 1:51:13

ultimately, we got tired of trying to figure out how to write a note about a rat

Britt: 1:51:19

burial for insurance.

Lacee: 1:51:22

I think we have to go now. I

Britt: 1:51:24

don't want to

Lacee: 1:51:25

explain this to you. Because you can't. And so you have to like. Thank You have to be dishonest to keep people alive and, and that wasn't tolerable anymore. And

Jaymee: 1:51:35

we witnessed insurance companies going, Oh, good. They're good. They have two days sober. Oh, yeah, they're good. Let's just move them out. It's like, wait, no, no, no. So you're forced with like, you know, you're forced with, you're in a moral situation of like, these companies don't know what, what this person needs. And I know what this person needs in this moment. They've let me in and they need another week. Not two days to just get the alcohol out of their system. That's just the beginning so It got really hard to sort of be in that system and we had done it we had now experimented with our own place and created something that was you know doing the rat burials and doing good work like the rat burials, you know, but it was as beautiful as you could get it as pure as you can get it and still was too incumbent. So another starting over for us that kind of brings us to now is that we left that center and neither of us. had savings, and I went off Instagram for two months just to experiment. Um, going off Instagram, uh, at times where I need it the most, proved to be, in a few instances, like, more connective. Like, I connect more with people. Actually, people seek me out more when I was off Instagram, so I was like, I'm gonna get off Instagram. and start this new thing. And we're launching into private practice and I hope it works out and there's no guarantees. And there's another starting over for us. And that's when we started love as the author, both the spiritual mentorship thing, but also the podcast. And we started doing it on our phone and passing the phone back and forth for the first season, which is now been taken off. Um, saving it for. It's cringy, I don't even think of it. Someday people will be like, I really want to hear it. Your Patreon members. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but it was cool to test the faith again and just to not take the guarantee of Instagram and to feel like you needed to be at an access point and sort of take that away and then all of a sudden. Our private practice formed out of, uh, not being as accessible in a weird way.

Lindsey: 1:53:51

Yeah, yeah. Well, because you're like stepping into another part of the unknown because we are now are conditioned to be like, well, I need this like way to be seen and that can be cool if you hold it lightly. Right. Yeah, exactly. It's another fine line. Yeah. Like. This is fun versus like, Oh, I need to do this to be visible, or if I'm not visible, then no one comes. And the real thing is that they're already there. Yeah. It's so

Britt: 1:54:19

cool. Yeah. They're already

Lindsey: 1:54:20

there. Cool to experiment with. Yeah. Yeah. Making life a big experiment. Well, I can definitely. Just even in just being around you in this short time since we've been in Ojai, I can feel that, that you are, what you said you brought to the recovery center is, it's real and it's authentic, you both bring this, like you bring this element of love to where people can be them full selves and you're not showing up as, its on its own. Like the some role or something. Yeah, you're not like necessarily you're not like showing up as like, well, I'm the therapist. You're the like, you're the patient. Yeah. And I can and you telling that story about that woman. I'm like, I can.

Lacee: 1:55:11

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jaymee: 1:55:13

There's, there's a really cool thing that I'll say, um, probably in closing here, but there's a, that my, my teacher, I have a, I've taken refuge in a Tibetan teacher, Lama Lenong Rinpoche. And he always talks about devotion and he says, you know, anything that, that. Is mine, is yours, if you believe it. And he said, it's not even mine to give, you know. You have it already also. But if you believe that I have something, then it's yours. And, oh yeah, so the people that, that, that we've been working with lately, who really believe that it's possible for them to live lives like we're living, are starting to get these almost instantly. They, they report. That just after beginning working with us, that their lives start to change. And that's measurable in all of our sessions where they just, and I think it's that part. I think it's when you see something in the world and you really believe that it exists and it's possible and, and you believe that that can happen to you too. Then if you're connected to something that's actually rooted in, in, in that being true, then it, it immediately. The blessings find you, you know, and, and so, um, that was an early indication of that of how unconditional love can reset someone and reset them in a big way to where like, she was not a rock climber, you know, I know that she was like a housewife, you know, and now she's out there like challenging, you know, height and safety and all this stuff. And, uh, having a relationship with it, you know, an active relationship rather than using it as an exit. She's like, she's having a loving relationship with challenge now, and maybe that's the best of the work we can do with people will help.

Lindsey: 1:57:07

Yeah. Beautiful. We can keep going. Thank you guys. But can you tell, okay, we do have two things that we ask every time and they can be quick. Um, Eli and Jack always ask they, we ask them for questions to offer to people that were interviewing. And now I didn't write down who, who said what, but first question they're always so. Random. Do you think women's rights are fair?

Britt: 1:57:39

Are fair? Yeah.

Lindsey: 1:57:41

No, we probably need to go another 30 minutes, but On fairness. Yeah, we would

Lacee: 1:57:44

go a whole 30

Jaymee: 1:57:46

minutes on fairness. Women's rights are fair. Um, you mean in the current climate, do you think he's saying? Or just

Lacee: 1:57:53

I'd have to answer how Yeah. Okay.

Lindsey: 1:57:55

I will say that I think he's talking, this was Jack actually, overarching, have women been treated fairly? Are women treated fairly?

Lacee: 1:58:05

No, no, no, no, no. And there's a collective wound in the feminine that I am actively engaged with in my female, with my female clients and talking about, but talking about in a way that, that doesn't create more separation between women and men, but actually hopefully creates more connectedness and, and, and doing that with. All the grace of the teachings that we all know, but um, but no, that no, we have not been treated fairly. And, and I think that that I, but I think there's a great possibility for that to shift, but I do believe that we ought to be really be careful about not creating more.

Britt: 1:58:50

So

Jaymee: 1:58:51

Buddha means harmony. Oh yeah. I'm sorry. Buddha means awake. And Buddhism so means like awakism. And so as awakism is happening, you can't help but see all the inequalities. You can't help but see all the injustices. You can't help but see all the fairness also of the world. You see it and it becomes more and more clear. And what I've chose to do in this relationship is Uh, take into consideration all of the inequalities, uh, that have always been for women and also in relationship and figuring out ways that I can sort of, um, um, compensate for, um, histories, um, misdoings. Um, I, I compensate in the way of sort of like being in check with every time that I want to have sex with her may not be the right time and, and it could work with her insecurity of like, well, I, I probably should have sex because like, this is what you do to maintain a healthy relationship, but see, this isn't a good reason to have sex already and sort of watching you know, that watching my own mind of like, you know, Hey, is this like appropriate? Or like, God, she's already in so much. She's got a period coming up or whatever it may be. And taking into consideration hormones and, um, having a more loving relationship with that and a more forgiving relationship and sort of not seeing it as her being crazy, but seeing it as like. A sacred time and studying indigenous cultures where they talk about it being very sacred time and sort of having new context and bringing that into our relationship. And so wherever, wherever there's been inequalities, I've taken, um, it on myself to try and compensate where I can in the relationship. Yeah,

Lacee: 2:00:39

we both believe big systemic issues are only going to get solved mindfully through us as individuals.

Lindsey: 2:00:46

Right. Right. Yeah. We're not going to like cancel it away. Yeah.

Lacee: 2:00:50

Yeah. It's so cute. Yeah. Cute question.

Britt: 2:00:52

Yeah.

Lindsey: 2:00:53

Um, great answer by the way. Yeah. And we could talk about, yeah. The healing feminine and the masculine. We'll do that on the next episode. Sounds great. Um, okay. Why do people lie down when they're talking to a therapist? Like, why do they lie? I think he's specifically thinking of like a couch, you know, why do you lie down on a couch? That was Eli's Eli's question. It's a great one.

Lacee: 2:01:15

You know, Eli, they used to do that and I'm not sure how much they do that anymore, but I think if there are people out there who still do that, I think that people want to be in a relaxed state in order to process very difficult information.

Jaymee: 2:01:34

And the part that I'll add is where they're not looking at the therapist, where they're looking up at the ceiling. Yes. It helps a lot to not look sometimes to talk about something that's deep. If you have to look into somebody's face, it can be awkward. You can be watching like how they're receiving it. And so when you're laying on your back and you're looking up at the ceiling, there's a sort of freedom and getting to talk about something without knowing how it's affecting the room. Perfect.

Lindsey: 2:02:00

Yeah. Yeah. The best. What music do you love? I'm sorry, last, last one. And then we'll just say, and then you say where everyone can find you. Okay. What do you love like right now? Mm. Like today.

Lacee: 2:02:16

I'm just always like a Nathaniel Raitliff, like geek, um, My Morning Jacket geek. Like those are just always in my experience. I haven't been listening to a lot of music, which is I'm realizing in this moment, but we just went to My Morning Jacket concert and St. Paul and the Broken Bones. Like I'm just a, I like a good groove.

Jaymee: 2:02:39

And I'm always, I'm, I'm, I think the record that I've been listening to more than anything is by the Vernon Spring and it's, it sounds like textures. It feels more like, um, the art of living life than it does music, but it's cool too because it kind of has a loop quality. And so you can kind of hear hip hop, you can kind of hear jazz, but it's sparse atmospheric. On some songs, you can hear a record crackle. And it's more like the textures of life, almost like the Dow, if it was the music. And so, and they only have one record, so, um, a bunch of singles and stuff, but the Vernon Spring.

Lacee: 2:03:18

Oh, and we're, we're going to go see, our next concert is Action Bronson in Ventura. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.

Jaymee: 2:03:25

I love it. Yeah,

Lindsey: 2:03:27

totally. How do people find

Jaymee: 2:03:28

you on Instagram? Love is the author is my handle. Hers is Unconventional Gardener. She is who to write or DMM to work with, either of us. You could also email her at Lacey. At Love is the author.com, L A C E E and the podcast is called Love is the Author, and Lacey does at least an episode a month with me where we talk about a relationship when we talk like this. And the rest of the time I interview. spiritual teachers and creative people, some of my favorites. You

Lacee: 2:04:00

also can access, uh, access us on demand in the ether. If you

Jaymee: 2:04:07

think you can, if you think you can, you might be able to. That's how we did it.

Britt: 2:04:11

yeah.

Lacee: 2:04:13

Like Course in Miracles style, like

Lindsey: 2:04:15

where should I

Britt: 2:04:15

go? Who should I talk to? Exactly.

Lindsey: 2:04:18

That's awesome. Y'all are amazing.

Lacee: 2:04:20

Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for doing this. So fun. Yeah. So fun.

Lindsey: 2:04:25

Who knows, you might just meet your... It says tribe. What can I say instead of tribe? Yeah, don't say that. I hate that. Uh, that's my own... Can we pee? Yeah, let's pee. Like together? This

Britt: 2:04:44

is the group piss section. Didn't know you were coming to that kind of podcast.