The Field of Infinite Potentiality and Embracing the Divine Buzz — An Interview with Pam Grout

In this Can We Start Over podcast episode, hosts Britt and Lindsey interview bestselling author Pam Grout.

Pam has written over 20 books -- including the international bestseller E Squared, Thank & Grow Rich, and A Course In Miracles Experiment. She's had a successful writing career and a joyful life by tapping into what she calls "the divine buzz."

They discuss various topics, including starting over, spirituality, and the power of manifestation. Pam shares her journey and insights on living authentically, connecting with the bigger universe, and finding creative fulfillment.

The conversation is filled with laughter, personal anecdotes, and profound wisdom. This episode is a must-listen if you're interested in manifesting and living a more joyful, abundant life.

Don't miss out on the opportunity to enter their giveaway to win three of Pam's amazing books. To enter, rate, and review the Can We Start Over podcast on Apple Podcasts, send a screenshot of your review to their email or Instagram.

The giveaway closes on October 31st, so act fast.

Follow Pam Grout on Instagram or Facebook and find all her offerings on her website.

Tune in to this enlightening and entertaining episode and discover the magic of starting over and embracing the divine buzz in your life.

If this episode has sparked a desire to tap into your creativity there's still space in Lindsey's upcoming workshop -- Touching Into Creativity. An online experiential proven process to guide you back to your creative flow within!

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Are you looking to reconnect in your relationship? Check out our free guide to Starting Over In Your Relationship so You Can Do Awesome Stuff Together!

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Transcript

Britt: 1:20

Welcome to the Can We Start Over podcast.

Lindsey: 1:22

My name is Britt. And my name is also Britt. I just changed it today. I got the paperwork in the mail. So you're listening to Britt and Britt. Ooh, I

Britt: 1:31

have been thinking about legally changing my name.

Lindsey: 1:35

To what? Machiavelli. Cutting out the first name. Oh. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Because I feel like a lot of process for... Well, I'm just

Britt: 1:45

sick of, I don't like, I've never gone by my first name, which is McElroy Valley. But since it's my first Yeah, but since my f, since it's my first name, it always comes up. Joshua. Joshua. Is there a Joshua here? Or whatever. And like, I don't relate to that name at all. It doesn't feel like me. I like it. I don't like it. Isn't not me. Huh? If I called you juicy, would you be like's Not me. You're just

Lindsey: 2:09

making that up on the spot. That's That's different.

2:12

Yeah,

Britt: 2:12

you don't relate to

Lindsey: 2:13

Juicy, do you? But you're just making up on the spot. That's different.

Britt: 2:18

It's not different. I didn't make up my name. That was my choice.

Lindsey: 2:23

My name, my choice. Anyway, my name is actually Lindsay. This is actually my husband, Britt. You're listening to the Can We Start Over podcast. We are a married couple and, you know, like a year ago, we sold our house, we sold our stuff and we went on a nine month travel adventure with our three kids. Not one, not two, but three of them. And then we shared it with you guys here. And along the way, we talked to other incredible people who started over in their own incredible way. And now we're settling down. We're starting our new starting over, which is starting a new life in a new place. And that's what you're listening to. Always be starting

Britt: 3:05

over, right? And so maybe that's

Lindsey: 3:07

why ABS. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. We appreciate you listening. We hope you are finding value in our silliness, in our wackiness, in our wildness. And we have an amazing episode for you today. One that if you give a darn toot about manifesting, which I do and I don't, then best way to do it. It's the best way to do it is to do and don't. I do. And there's definitely something bigger that even feels better. Which is just being so freaking in love with life that it all just happens naturally, but this guest was actually a big manifestation, I guess, if you will, meaning that I just love her and I think she's so cool. Our guest today is Pam Grout. The number one New York Times best selling author, she's written over 20 books including some of my favorites, E Squared and The Course in Miracles Experiment, Pam Grout is a writer who has published with Scientific American Explorations, People Magazine, Travel and Leisure to name a few, she's a television creator. A travel writer, she's a blogger, she's an epic adventurer, not only of the world on her adventures, but also an adventurer of the inner world and how we can create our life's most amazing experiences by tuning in to what she calls the divine buzz. Pam's current focus is the 2 2 2 Foundation, which she started to honor her magical daughter Tasmin, who has been guiding her from the non physical since 2018. Pam was so fun to talk to, and we're so excited about this episode that we want to do a giveaway. We are giving away three of my favorite Pam Grout books. All you have to do to enter this giveaway is rate and review the Can We Start Over podcast. Go to the Can We Start Over Apple podcast page, scroll down to ratings and reviews. You'll see write a review, which you're going to click on. Rate and write the review. Grab a screenshot and then send it over. Just email

Britt: 5:37

it to Hello at, can we start over podcast.com or you can send it to us on Instagram at, can we start over?

Lindsey: 5:44

Pod and boom, you're entered to win, not one, but three of Pam's amazing books. This giveaway closes on October 31st, so make sure you get your entries in, tell your friends about it, and good luck. I know

Britt: 5:58

all your favorite podcast hosts ask you to rate their podcast, but it really does help. It pushes forward the podcast so more people will listen. So everyone

Lindsey: 6:07

wins. Right now, I'm reading Pam's book called Art and Soul Reloaded, which is all about reclaiming your bold, creative side, and really, like all of her books I've read, I'm completely in love with it. Creativity has nothing to do with this idea of being perfect, having the perfect idea, or the perfect business, or the perfect amount of time. We actually find our true essence in the messiness that is creation. It's the lack of perfection that makes creating so darn perfect. So what if you could feel tapped into your creative essence all the time? So you could not only dive into your creative project unapologetically, but also live your life like each step is a creative masterpiece. I believe that creativity is a key to deep healing and fulfillment and that without it, Life just passes us by while we wait for the perfect time to start. I want to invite you, dear listeners, to a deep dive into your creative essence with me on October 19th. Touching In to Creativity is a live experiential and communal workshop that I created and I'm so excited to share with you. You're not just gonna sit listening to another lecture while you zone out for two hours. You'll tune into your felt sense through an embodied movement practice, clarify your creative vision through visualization and inquiry practices, you'll connect with your personal guides and muses, and you will leave feeling like a creative force. I'll share with you an incredibly effective and potent process to get that creative zing back into your life. I'd love to see you there. Touching Into Creativity happens on October 19th, and if you can't make it live, the replay will be available. So take your seat and reclaim your wild creative essence by following the link in the show notes. We're so excited to share this talk with you. Follow Pam on Instagram at Pam Grout or check out her website, pamgrout. com for all the things she's working on now. All right, let's do it.

Pam Grout: 8:29

Oh, hi. Yeah, it's

Lindsey: 8:30

beautiful there. Yeah, us too. It's kind of funny. We, we just moved here two months ago and before that we were traveling with your family for three, for nine months. We have three kids. It's, When we were driving from Texas to here in March to just to visit. We're from Texas. Yeah, we're from Texas. We found your audio book, Course in Miracles Experiment. I don't know if I mentioned that in the email that I sent you. We were already interested in Course in Miracles, but honestly like weren't like too studied in it. We knew about it from Pete Holmes. who we listen to his podcast, and he lives here and now we know him. So we listened to your book and I don't know, it just was so easy to understand that it felt like a friend was telling me about A Course in Miracles. And then I was like, I'm so hooked on Pam Grout.

Britt: 9:21

We looked you up immediately in the car. We were like, she sounds like us. Like, where is she from?

Lindsey: 9:29

And then you live in Kansas. My mom just moved to Kansas a year ago. There was like all these, the synchronicities were all there. Wow.

Pam Grout: 9:37

Where'd your mom move to in Kansas?

Lindsey: 9:39

Um, Lawrence.

Pam Grout: 9:41

Oh, hey, that's where I live. So, hey, maybe you'll come visit her and we can all meet in person.

Lindsey: 9:47

We spent a month here in Ojai in March, and I listened to, listened to A Course in Miracles experiment, listened to Thank and Grow Rich like three times, just had it like every morning I'd be like, this is my book, and then E Squared, listened to that. Anyway, you've really, you've been a part of our travels in this way that you didn't know about. So, thank you.

Pam Grout: 10:11

Yeah, well, thanks for taking me along. It sounds really fun. I'm so glad I went to California and back and it sounds like I went all kinds of places. Anyway, thanks for

Lindsey: 10:20

inviting me along. Thailand, Japan, Australia, Hawaii. You were all, you were there the whole time.

Britt: 10:27

It's funny you actually quoted Pete Holmes in that book. And when we got here, we ran into Pete, like, almost immediately. And I was like, hey, Pete, we, we're actually listening to this book on A Course in Miracles, and they quoted you. And he got really excited, because he was like, well, they must have quoted me before I was even into A Course in Miracles, because of the timeline there. And that got him really excited, too, because we found out about it through him.

Pam Grout: 10:54

Oh, that's great. Well, yeah, I used to listen to his podcast quite a bit. I haven't kept up with what he's doing lately, but, um, I do like him a lot. I knew he lived in California. I didn't know he lived in Ojai. So that's awesome. Well, you know, Byron Katie, somebody I've followed for a long time. And of course she lives in Ojai and I came to Ojai and did her. I can't remember if it's a nine day school for the work or ten day school for the work, but anyway, so that's where we were, was in Ojai, so that's why I know it. And I had a good friend that lived there for a long time too, so. Yeah,

Lindsey: 11:23

we also love Byron Katie. She's amazing. Yeah, I saw her in the health food store and we like had a little fangirl moment. I was like, it's Byron Katie.

Pam Grout: 11:34

Well, I've been a fan for a moment with seeing Pete Holmes, too, I think, so. Yeah,

Lindsey: 11:39

yeah, yeah, true, exactly, yeah. So, yeah, our podcast is all about starting over, the journey we went on, and then we love to talk to other people that inspired us in some way to start over, or that are just, like, doing... really cool things and living authentically. And so we always like to start by hearing a little bit about your starting over story. And that can just be, I know we all have a million, so maybe it's like, whatever feels true just right now.

Pam Grout: 12:09

Well, you know, the first thing that came to mind when you asked that is I really want to start over every moment, but particularly every day, you know, it's like each day. You know, there's 24 hours on each day and it's so fun to wake up and think, what is going to happen today? And to just surrender to that possibility. So starting over the first thought I had was that, yeah, well, I, I believe in starting over every, every day, you know, more or less, but as far as big starting overs, I've always had a pretty. And, and, um, haven't done that major. Oh, I'm starting over, but I have lived in different places and that's in a sense is starting over and, um, you know, I became a mother when I was 37 and that was starting over and then also, um, you know, my daughter passed and so that was a starting over, so I've had. You know, quite a few starting over moments. It would be big that might fit into what you're talking about in the podcast. But I do believe, you know, I, I talk sometimes about, I know mind like, Oh, every time we use the mind that thinks it knows we miss all the possibilities that are out there, you know, in the, in the bigger universe. So that's why I like the idea of starting over every moment, like being like a child being, you know, Not knowing what everything is. I mean, Byron Katie talks about that a lot, you know, like first generation reality, not, you know, the reality that we impose on the world, like, oh, okay, I understand. That's a tree. And then we have, you know, all of our beliefs about what a tree is. But if you don't lay that over the top of it, then, you know, it can be anything. So, um, so I guess, I don't know. That's how I would answer. How do I start over?

Lindsey: 13:58

That's amazing. Yeah. So were you always interested in A Course in Miracles or in Living the Truth that we start over each morning or when did that kind of seed for you? Well, I began

Pam Grout: 14:12

The Course in Miracles. Oh, wow. When was it? I went to Big Sur in California I went to Esalen and I did a month long program. This is back when I was I don't know, really young or seems young now, probably older than you guys are, but anyway, um, and the, the 30 day program that I did was about the Course in Miracles and this amazing guy named Julian Silverman and he was one of the founders of Esalen or he was in, you know, from the beginning with, uh, Michael, can't remember that guy's name, but you know, that started Esalen back in the day. So, yeah. Julian has gone on to other realms by now. But anyway, it was a wonderful program with Course in Miracles. And I think I chose that because I had just done a community university class where the, um, the teacher had given, given us the assignment to read the book. Uh, love is letting go of fear, which was Gerald Jempolsky's book that he referred to as the Course in Miracles. So I thought, Oh, that's interesting. I like. What I'm hearing about force of miracles, but as far as you asked, when did I start this way? I grew up in a very traditional, um, religious family. In fact, my father was a Methodist minister. So I was taught, you know, kind of the traditional, we're all born into sin or whatever. You know, falling short of the glory of God. I mean, I remember that verse very well. So that was kind of my background growing up. And as soon as I got away from that, you know, I was, again, my dad was a minister, he left the ministry when I was 16, my parents divorced. So that already shook some of the, you know, some of the groundwork of my life when that happened. But then when I went off to college, I was just completely open minded to anything and I was, um, you know, exploring and, you know, wanting other things. And it was probably at that point where I really. Just little by little started getting interested in a bigger picture than the one I was taught as a child. So I would say, but I've been on a continuous journey since college and that was a long time ago. So I've been interested in this for a long time. And part of my journey too is being a writer. You know, I have always felt that that was my purpose in life was to write and to express myself. And kind of the truce that I am taking in and, and really just to be a satellite dish for, you know, the bigger thing. So, I've been on that journey, like kind of an artistic journey as well as on a spiritual journey. And in some ways there's no difference, but those would be my two paths that have always intrigued me, that I've followed. My curiosity has encouraged me to follow.

Lindsey: 16:42

I love that you said the big thing. I know you call it a lot of things, the big thing. Yeah. The dude, the FP, the field of potentiality. How do you feel that? How do you sense that that is, how do you know when you're like being guided by the big thing?

Pam Grout: 16:59

A lot of different ways. I feel it a lot out in nature. Like, you know, looking at that, I don't know if you guys happen to see the super moon. I don't know what your skies were like at the time, the super moon was that last week of it before, but you know, just being out there and looking at that moon is like, how could we possibly believe that? Our little material lives are it, you know, when you look at that beautiful moon. Um, but one thing I've noticed that's kind of interesting for me, I'm a journaler, and I've journaled forever. I mean, you know, like, I don't know, probably since I was in college, so a long, long time. And sometimes, you know, I'll often write in cursive and sometimes I'll notice that I'm suddenly writing and printing, you know, as opposed to writing in cursive. And oftentimes that might be something that I'm meant to remember or to pay more attention to. So that's kind of an interesting thing that happens for me. Um, because often, I mean, the truth of it is I can't always even read my own cursor for hiding, you know, when I'm journaling. So I think, you know, the field of potentiality or God or whatever you want to call it says, you need to slow down here and you need to print this because this is something you need to remember. So I sometimes have guidance in that way, but I do connect with the bigger thing when I, I love, you know, talking with other people about this. Like I love having conversations about this. I always say, this is the only conversation that really matters. So, anyway, I feel the field of infinite potentiality right now talking to you guys, so. There's so many ways to connect. I mean, how can you not connect? It's here, it's everywhere, you know? But,

Lindsey: 18:30

yeah. True. And, I mean, and so many people don't, you know? And that's what we really want to have this conversation with you. For someone who, like, wants to feel that, like, they know there's something there, but they don't feel connected to it. Do you ever, like, have advice for those people? A lot

18:51

of

Pam Grout: 18:51

it goes to slowing down. Because I think once, you know, if you're going really fast in your mind, you know, in your life, you, you skip right by a lot of things. I mean, I told the story in, um, eSquared about this woman who was so frustrated she was waiting at the airport for the bus, you know, that took people back to the parking lot where they parked their cars. And it literally circled, my friend was sitting there watching, and it circled three times, and she couldn't even see it because she was so, I mean that's just a small little example, but since I wrote that in eSquared, I've had a lot of people send me, Stories how they too miss something that was right there. And so not only do we miss, you know, the bigger thing, but we even miss the material things in our life. A lot of times when we're so much in our mind and we're rushing around and we're frantically doing this or that. So I think it's pretty easy to do that. So I think slowing down, I think paying attention to your breath is a good way to do that. I feel like gratitude is a good way to connect with the bigger thing, because when you're in a state of gratitude. You're really more on that frequency, so to speak, that we're the, the dude, whatever the bigger thing is. So gratitude is another big practice of mine that I feel is very important and really can lead you to some of those, the, you know, the divine guidance that's always available for us.

Britt: 20:15

And I really, really appreciate your wording there too. I grew up in a family that wasn't religious at all and Now in my older age, I've kind of discovered spirituality. So I've always had that like religious baggage The dude is right up my alley. So

Pam Grout: 20:31

I like that. I know I love that I was what I was gonna say is I feel like for so many people spirituality is very Serious solemn, um, you know, all these rules. And I think part of the reason I call it the dude and call it so many different names is I think if we want it to be sustainable, right, we want to continue to do this. And I think if we make it. more fun if we lighten up about everything. I mean, that's what we're going for. Like in the course of miracles, the light, you know, I am the light of God. So lightness also has to do with how serious we take life. So if we look at life in a light hearted manner, I think we're also closer to that frequency of God. So I do tend to, you know, call it the dude or whatever. And just the way I word things is some people think I'm very irreverent and sacrilegious, you know, because of some of the crazy examples that I use. But to me, it's the truth. And, um, it's fun to do it in a, in a more lighthearted manner. To write in a more light hearted manner. Yeah. It makes it sustainable. Right.

Lindsey: 21:34

Yeah, yeah. We have like, enough seriousness as adults. You know? Really getting back. That's why I like that you mentioned slowing down. It just reminded me of being a parent and how I can, my mind can be like, Oh, well, once all of these things are done, then, then I can slow down or once, once X, Y, Z, then, then we'll be like happy or something, you know, how the mind does. And really it's like slowing down right there and just playing or look, just looking at my kids and being like, look at these little miracles that are just hanging out, playing Legos. It's so true. That's where I really feel like the dude, you know?

Pam Grout: 22:17

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like children are our best teachers. And I think that, you know, how so many things are upside down, how we've approached life. And I think, you know, when our children are born to us, we need to pay more attention to them. You know, they're like, Oh, look, there's a ladybug. I mean, they're just looking at everything they're observing. They're aware of all the miracles, but very quickly we teach them, no, you need to do this. And here's the rules and whatever. So I think children are our best teachers. I wrote a blog post once about a couple of stories about kids that I just really loved. We were out walking, um, one day during the pandemic, my partner and I, and there was this little family and this one boy, this one of the little boys had stopped and he was paying attention to a caterpillar and, you know, he's just looking at it and the family, come on, come on, we got to go. And so he, he leans down to the caterpillar and he goes. It was so nice to talk to you. I love you. Goodbye. I mean, just, you know, just that it was just so sweet. Then there was another kid that was back in the, in his, in her, in his mom's car. And he was saying, mom, I have this confetti in my pocket. And she said, why do you have confetti in your pocket? He says, well, when there's something to celebrate, I'll be ready. So I thought that was, but yeah, kids just, I don't know. They're, they're in the moment. They're, they're recognizing God all the time. The dude. Yeah.

Lindsey: 23:39

Yeah. Yeah. So, you were already versed, you, you already, it sounds like you were on some kind of curiosity path when you became a mother. Did that I was. In fact, I was out How did this

Pam Grout: 23:53

change you? Yeah, tell me. Well, I was out in Connecticut and I had just finished a six month program on Rebirthing, which is a breathing practice. It's not necessarily Rebirthing and I had finished that program and this friend of mine said hey, I'm going to this psychic from California I was in Connecticut at the time. She was you want to go along and I said sure, you know, I'll go I'm always up for fun adventure. So she's going around the circle, you know to each person and telling what their next path in life is And when she came to me, she says, the psychic says, I don't know that you're going to like this, but your next path in life is motherhood. And so, you know, we walk out of there and I said to my friend, that psychic is full of baloney. There is no way. I mean, you know, I'm, you know, 37, I'm, you know, actively traveling and writing. And sure enough, I was pregnant soon thereafter. And indeed, that was my next path. So, um, Anyway, you know, and I, I was a single mom and, you know, had my, in fact, one of the stories I tell, if you guys have read the Course in Marital Success, I really had known about it for a while, but I began to practice it in earnest when I was seven months pregnant, driving across the country, you know, because it didn't work out with her father. And it's like, you know what? Clearly something needs to change here. So I, even though I've been, you know, practicing the Course in Miracles, I began to really take its messages. To heart and I really began to practice them and you know, one thing led to another it was a great experience and being Tasman's mom. I feel like she was the greatest gift. Um, you know, that I've had in this lifetime. So anyway, that was a kind of a big surprise and talk about, uh, changing your life. It definitely changed mine, right?

Lindsey: 25:42

And you were already a writer at that time you were traveling, doing all of the things that you're going to do. Yes.

Pam Grout: 25:49

I've been a writer from the very beginning. Did

Lindsey: 25:52

your early experience in early motherhood, did it shift? The way you traveled, or writing at the time, or did it just all kind of enfold together? Well, I made it work.

Pam Grout: 26:06

I mean, I got a lot of pressure from people at that time, Pam, you need to go get a real job. Because you know, I've been freelancing for a long time, and you know, when you're just taking care of yourself, you know, that's fine. But um, once I became pregnant, I was going to have this daughter to raise, people thought, you need to get a real job. But I stuck with my My intention, which was to continue to be a writer. And again, I appointed God, the CEO of my career. And I said, Hey, you know what? This is a pretty unstable business, but if, if I'm going to make this work, you're going to be the boss. So I turned it all over to the higher power. And indeed it has all worked out for me. Um, there were times my gosh, how am I going to pay the rent? And some miraculous thing would happen. Just always, I was taken care of. I was always guided. I was always. Blessed and taken care of all along the way. I mean, if you look at my story, you know, Oh, this woman, she's seven months pregnant, she doesn't have a home. I mean, what's going to happen, but it all worked out, you know, just step by step by step. And I think, you know, that I, that I know mind that I was talking about earlier, it's like, everyone would say, Hey, that's, that's a terrible situation. You're driving across the country. You're seven months pregnant. You have where you don't know where you're going, but I didn't feel that somehow I just had a sense that everything was going to be fine. And indeed everything was fine. So, um, anyway, I guess that's one of the things I've always been able to do is to look beyond, you know, like the general narrative that would say. This is a real problem where this is, you know, you need to be more afraid than you are. So anyway, it was, uh, you know, there's, it's definitely Sounds kind of challenging and yeah, there were moments. It was challenging. But again being guided and Led to just the right things just the right people at just the right time

Lindsey: 27:56

What is one of those just the right people places times that is coming to mind for you right

Pam Grout: 28:02

now? Originally, when I was driving my little blue Toyota across the country with the air conditioner on the fritz, I was planning to go to Breckenridge because a friend of mine knew about a home that was actually for sale, but it was sitting there, you know, until it sold. So I was going to head there and I was going to raise taz in Breckenridge, but you know, I'm driving across the country, stopping to see various friends. And then. An old boss of mine, I used to write fundraising letters for her. She said, Hey, I've got this big, big house. You can just stay here while you have the baby. I mean, you know, you're walking around seven months, maybe eight months by the time I got pregnant. So, you know, that happened right then that was perfect. And I stayed with her for a few months and then, you know, I rented an apartment and just, you know, one thing led to another, but I ended up staying. She was in Kansas, which is, you know, I was heading to Colorado because I had left. you know, Connecticut. I have kind of a weird thing. I have lived in every state that begins with a C, you know, and every state that begins with a K. And this is not like I planned that, you know, but that's just kind of how it has worked out.

Lindsey: 29:11

What does God do as your CEO? And what do those meetings look

Pam Grout: 29:16

like? Well, I don't know that we have official meetings. Sometimes I'll go, Hey, I need your help right now. I mean, it's more like that kind of a meeting, not a, uh, let's sit down and have a chat kind of thing. It's more like, yeah. And, you know, as I'm, you know, developed in my journey, I trust more and more that what, what is brought to me each day, like we were talking about starting over each day, you know, God is providing. I keep, sorry. I keep using that word dial the dude is providing. Each day. And so it's, I don't know, it's just trusting that, you know, and I don't need to have all these big intentions or whatever, because I just trust so much that the right things and again, the right people, all this will come into my life. So it's a matter of just trusting that this beneficent force has my back and that I just have to tune in and pay attention.

Lindsey: 30:11

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about balancing that trust with. Also, creating reality through thought, through intention. How do you hold both? Because it seems like... Well, what I've

Pam Grout: 30:27

come to realize is most of what I think I need and want is usually pales in comparison to what the bigger thing thinks I need and want. So, I am pretty open to that. You know, back when I was younger, I was really big into manifesting. And of course, you know, E squared's all about manifesting. And I wrote a blog post once that I think really explains it all how there's four stages of Kind of spiritual development and the first stage is like oh my god There's nothing out there. The second one is wow. I can kind of get this force to do my Do my bidding and then you, you gain confidence in that. And then, um, the third stage, I don't remember what that was, but eventually in the fourth stage, you just are so surrendered. You know, that there's nothing but God. There's nothing but the dude and it's all perfect. You've just totally surrendered to that. But so I think that manifesting piece is kind of more like on the second wrong. You know, you, you need to know that you need to realize that you interact with the doing that you animate into your life, what you focus upon. I mean, that is a fact that's a. You know a scientific fact that's what I would call it. But so we animate into our life whatever we focus upon And if we focus upon problems, which is kind of the state of the world, then, you know, we'll get lots of problems. If we focus on possibilities, then we get a lot of possibilities. So I was talking about problem state or possibility state. So, I just prefer to stay in possibility state and let the dude handle the details.

Lindsey: 31:54

Yeah, I love that. And I, cause, I, I guess because I see in, in the language around manifestation, especially cause it's like such a. Um, forced feeling around it, or like, uh, I need to have exactly whatever I thought that gets a little limp. It's limiting because really, there's this like much bigger field of love. And so I love that you're saying, just focus on creating the good and kind of, and then more or less see what happens and trust that you're being led. I love that. Thank you. Right. Well, I

Pam Grout: 32:38

have what, you know, four main intentions these days, and they're just real simple. Peace of mind. You know, that's what the Course in Miracles promises. Peace of mind. Surety of purpose. You know that I know what my purpose is. Clear unmistakable guidance. So when there is something for me to do or there is something for me to write or something for me to say that I will recognize that I meant to do that. And then the fourth one is unceasing joy, which is what the Course in Miracles does promise. And that one's the hardest one for most people to get their minds around like what unceasing joy Everybody knows life's a roller coaster, right? But again, that's how we Collapse the wave to believe that and so of course that's maybe the way it is But I do believe there's a bigger picture where we can live in unceasing joy.

Britt: 33:24

I was curious Do you have any exercises and creativity for like pulling inspiration from the source?

Pam Grout: 33:31

Well, you know, I wrote a book called art and soul Reloaded well, I wrote a book art and soul And then it went out of print, but then we released it. Well, I changed it up a little bit called art and soul reloaded. And in there, I have some, I guess you'd call them. I don't like to talk, call them exercises. Cause that sounds kind of like, Oh, you got to do it, but just some practices that you can do. But my biggest thing is really. Just to show up and say, okay, dude, what am I, what do you want me to write? What are you kind of showing up? You need to prove to the muses. If you want to call them that the dude that you're serious, that you really are willing to be the secretary, because again, You know, my highest writing is when I'm a satellite dish, you know, I'm just bringing in whatever, you know, the dude wants me to write about. So, but you do have to show up. So I guess that would be, um, the only advice I'm not one at all for giving advice. I feel like what works for one person may not work for another person. And I feel like in some ways, you know, the whole self help thing, and I know my books are classified as self help. But I feel like we each find it in our own way and we each find it with our connection with the bigger thing. So what might work for one person may not work for the other person. But I think just being open, being willing and being there, you know, is kind of the best, um, exercise, I guess, if you want to call it that.

Lindsey: 34:56

Yeah, I actually just started listening to Art and Soul this week and it's, it's amazing and it really, because I'm also, I'm doing the artist's way right now for the first time. I've done a lot of automatic writing but never, like, With the book and I just read, uh, Stephen Pressfield's, um, War of Art. Are you familiar with that? That's such a great book. He's incredible. He was on Pete's podcast recently. That's where I heard him. And I, I was familiar with him, but I. bought the book, never, you know, didn't read it. So I was like, I'm going to read it. He talks about the muse too. You meant when, as soon as you said the muse in the book, art and soul, and now you just said it, I'm like, Oh yeah, it, it all. It's like everything I need to hear right now is show up, ask for guidance. But like, you have to kind of, you have to show up what I am personally learning as someone who's more of like, uh, or has been known to be someone that's like, uh, A little more task oriented in my former whatever is like showing up for my creative flow or vision first before I then do all the things that need to be done in the house or before I like check emails because it gets you Get sucked in I I won't say you I'll say I Get like sucked into all of these things I need to do, which are mostly meaningless. Everyone still has clean underwear. There is still food. So to like make sure that, you know, it's all folded or whatever it is, or to make sure that all the emails checked when most of it's trash. So you and Steven Pressfield, and then also doing the artist's way, those three things are, it's like, I need them right now to remember that creativity comes first. And it actually is what gives the other things energy for me, because then I show up to mom and I feel good. I'm like, I'm excited.

Pam Grout: 36:50

Yeah, Gandhi used to say that if he had a really busy day, that he needed to meditate a little bit extra, because then he would find more time. And meditate, you could replace it with, you know, do your spiritual practice, your creativity practice, whatever it would be, but to connect. To that bigger thing because whatever you're doing With that bigger thing kind of there guiding you, it's going to be so much better and life just kind of flows easier. But I know when you've got, you said three kids, that's, that's a lot to think about, you know, and a lot to focus on, but I think you can be better there. You can be there for them better too, as you're, you know, kind of staying in touch with your higher self.

Lindsey: 37:28

Yeah, yeah, well, because once you know, once you kind of like tune into how you want life to feel and or again, I'll say for me once I tuned into like how I want life to feel how I want to express my life and live in in joy. It just, it just kind of like flips everything on its head and it really makes me like rethink responsibility. Also, what am I responsible to if I also have these creative visions and this idea that like feels like it's going, you know, it could go somewhere, even if it's just going that going somewhere into one other person's ear or no one else's ear.

Pam Grout: 38:09

Exactly. How can we show up, just show up as the best person, the highest version of yourself, and, you know, when you are connected in that way, it definitely helps do that.

Lindsey: 38:20

I do want to circle back to that idea of, of, like, the unending joy. I can't remember exactly what you just called it.

Pam Grout: 38:30

Unceasing joy, yes.

Lindsey: 38:33

Joy, yes, holding that as an intention when, like you said, life is a roller coaster and there's some things that happen that are hard, right?

Pam Grout: 38:45

And I think one of the reasons I love Byron Katie so much, you know, we're talking about her earlier, is she always says. The unhappiness isn't happening in the events that happen. It's happening in our heads, in the story that we're telling about that. You know, this shouldn't have happened. I don't like this. Get me out of here. Those are all the ego's voice trying to keep us from our natural state of joy. Because our natural state, you know, our true self, who we are, is joyful. Um, but the ego is constantly has this little narrative going that says. You shouldn't be here. This shouldn't be happening. This is all unfair. I mean, just the ego goes on and on and on, you know, that voice in our head. Um, so that's kind of the thing that keeps us from that. But I do feel that, uh, you know, to really know who we are, once we're really true to our authentic self, that is how we will live in joy and peace. And that's, you know, my intention. So, yeah, that's why I have that intention.

Lindsey: 39:51

Yeah, I love it. Well, what about when, like, the big things happen when you, when you lose a child or, you know, these, like, heartbreaks? Well,

Pam Grout: 40:04

it definitely is heartbreaking. It is completely shattering every single thing in your life. So yes, it is. Those things can be. Very difficult. Well, it makes you look at life in a whole different way. And you know, again, with that being my intention, this, it, it can, it's something that helps you look at life in a whole different way for sure. So I've had to, you know, the course of miracles always says that who we really are is not this body. This body is an imposter that just here. You know, temporarily, whatever. So who we really are is the love and the joy and the light. That's the truth of who we are. So, by society's narrative, yes, my daughter is not here anymore. But the essence of who she is, the light and the joy and the love, is still very much here. So, it really helps you widen, to broaden your perspective when something like that happens. Um, I mean, she's just, I, I love my daughter just as much as I ever did. I get signs from her on the regular. I mean, like literally every first of the month I get a sign from her. Um, I also get a lot of two to twos. I started a foundation in her honor. I feel like she and I work in the, on the foundation together. So it's just. Again, it's our thoughts and our beliefs, as Byron Katie says, that keep us from that joy. And certainly, there's a lot of thoughts and beliefs around losing a child that, that could Definitely get in the way of, of feeling the unceasing joy. And I, I'm not here to say that, Oh yeah, I just sailed right through it. It was easy. It was very, very, very difficult. But again, I'm not a fully realized person, you know, I'm still, I'm still, um, intending these things and, you know, moving in that direction and trying to be more expansive all the time. So, um, you know, I'm doing, I just do the best that I can. And again, turn it over to the dude and trust that, you know, The bigger thing has Has my back and knows what it's doing. So anyway,

Lindsey: 42:14

yeah going back to the I know Like that you that we don't know, you know We we can't know and that I'm not my body. But also I am a human right now So, I think I'm supposed to be here just taking these experiences and lessons and ingesting them, alchemizing them to get back to that love and joy. And that it's not, yeah, and it might not always look pretty.

Pam Grout: 42:46

It might not always look pretty according to the narrative that we've all bought into. You know, I talk a lot about, you know, collapsing the wave and... You know, that's a quantum physics term. And once you collapse the wave or you set up your neural pathways in your brain, and we all do it, we have our limited narrative about the way things are meant to be. And so anything that is different than that, that doesn't fit into that can be very painful. So, um, that's part of the reason that I try to surrender my story, my beliefs as much as I possibly can, and try to get into. I don't know mind. I said in one of my books or blogs or something that my hero was, um, Sergeant Schultz from Hogan's Heroes, and you guys may be too young to remember that, but it was about these guys that were prisoner of war in, in Germany. And so anyway, this guy, Sergeant Schultz would always say to his, Colonel Klink was like the, you know, the bad guy that had these guys in prison. And he'd say, I know nothing. And so he would say that, and that's like, okay, that's my mantra, that's my hero, I know nothing. All I know is that I'm here at this moment, and I'm going to do the best that I can with it.

Lindsey: 43:57

Going back to this idea of, like, really the essence of starting over, and, and I also, I mean, our experience is like, starting over doesn't need to be a challenge. It can be like, oh, I want to do this new thing, and starting over in that way. And like really flipping it around. I'm like, Oh, I. get to do something new and exciting if I follow the call? How, how can someone who wants to start over, whether it's start studying A Course in Miracles, whether it's become a writer or start traveling or just the millions of things that people can do, you know, make purses, um, start painting, bake cookies and give them out to people or like, Dance in the grocery store. There's literally a million things that we can do and say, this is, this is the real me, you know, how can people implement these. teachings that you give and you, I like that you say it's not advice, it's your experience and someone will use it differently, but how can they take what you are here to express and utilize it for their own starting over?

Pam Grout: 45:05

Well, I think, you know, you heard that, that saying, it says jump and the net will appear or leap and the net will appear. I think we hang on so tight. To what we know, even when it's painful, even when it's not working out for us. But when you mentioned that about starting over can be exciting. I mean, really, when you think about it, that's super exciting. I mean, you're doing something completely new. I mean, why wouldn't that be so amazing? But it's only that narrative that says, we need to keep it the same. I need to stay safe. I need to, you know, and it's just this belief that you're safe when you keep doing the same thing, that's not necessarily safety, but again, it's a collapsed way that we believe about the way it is. So I think just to turn that on his head, it's like. Wow. I am like, you guys are living in a whole new place now. And I don't know if you're launching a whole new business. I'm not sure what all you're doing, but that is so exciting. Yes. It's a little scary or it's a little unknown, I guess, but Hey, that is so cool. And so when you approach it from that total excitement and wow, what's going to happen, that curiosity. that makes it really fun and I think we can do that with whatever's happening in our life. How, how can we make this really fun and to look at it that way?

Lindsey: 46:22

Yeah, yeah, and I just actually heard you say this in the Course in Miracles experiment, but like seeing fear and then just not, not letting fear stop you and knowing like there's fear, seeing it, witnessing it, and then being like, and I'm going to walk right. Past it or walk right through it,

Pam Grout: 46:41

right? I mean you can wave at it, you know and say hi Yeah, I hear you, but doesn't mean you have to listen to it. You know, whatever we put our attention upon So if we put a lot of our attention on the fear, I mean it just grows whatever we're thinking about grows So, you know if you thought oh my gosh, this is so scary. I shouldn't be doing this and oh my what's gonna happen Then it'll grow, but you can also, wow, this is so exciting. This is so what's going to, what's going to happen, you know, what's exciting going to happen. So, yeah, I think that's where you really do use that discipline of, you know, what am I going to grow in my experience in my mind? And, uh, so yeah, that's where we have some power, I think, is to truly focus on the possibilities, not the problems.

Lindsey: 47:27

Mm hmm. Yeah. And then for anyone who still feels those little, like, the clinging thoughts, or the clinging to fear, and you mentioned it, we hold on so tight, like, and we can get a practice of letting go, but then we might notice we're clinging somewhere else. How do we just trust to let go more, even more, after, even after we've been doing it for a while?

Pam Grout: 47:52

Well, I think as you start doing it, it becomes easier and easier once you start seeing, wow, this wasn't a disaster, or this, all these things that I worried were going to happen did not happen. So it's like, you know, working any muscle, you start surrendering, you start getting excited. You start being curious about a new way of being. And then you realize that all those thoughts and crazy making that you were doing in your head didn't come to pass. And so I think it gets easier and easier as you do it more and more. And I would say you guys, if you've totally picked up everything and moved your, you're definitely. You know, growing that muscle of possibility. So, so good for you.

Lindsey: 48:36

Yeah. One example I want to give of just a, well, another way that you've kind of been on this trip with us. We were in Australia in June. It was very last minute. We were traveling and we were like, let's go to Australia next. And then we got there and we're like, it's winter. And it was just, it was obviously also like a winding down of our traveling that maybe we were like holding on to the idea, like almost in reverse, holding on to like, no, we need to. We were supposed to keep doing this longer. Anyway, we went to a bookstore, E squared was there. I was like, okay, I'm going to buy E squared, this bookstore in Australia and like doing the experiments. I don't know. I was just wanted, I was, I was feeling at that time. like in a low spot because I was like kind of bummed. I think we're going to stop traveling. What am I, what's my work? Where am I supposed to be? All of those little questions that come up. So I was so happy to have your experiments to just have fun with and be light. And one of them is the car, like seeing a green, I think it says a green car, but then you change it to sunset beige or something. You can do whatever you want. Yeah, but when, but anyway, my car was sunset orange, and then the next day I freaking saw this orange car in Australia and I was like, all right, I guess I'm just supposed to loosen up and not try to, it really, the, it was another way that I was reminded that I was trying to force or control my idea of what was supposed to happen.

Pam Grout: 50:20

Yeah, I love those little synchronicities and sides from the universe. And I think once you start paying attention, you see more and more of them. In fact, that was kind of the whole purpose of E squared really was, you know, I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said a million times before, including the Bible asking you should find, you know, seeking it to be given to you, whatever that is. But it was saying, Let's pay attention and let's give it a time frame. And so it just sort of jars people into recognizing, I really am interacting with this force. So I love those little signs and synchronicities. And I feel like they're there all the time if we pay attention. And as we start paying more attention, we find them more and more. In fact, one of the things I often say, you know, this book. Came out 10 years ago. And so since it came out, I mean, people send me these letters and they start with, Oh, M G. You are never going to believe this. And so they're so excited. I mean, in the beginning, when the book came out, I was getting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of emails with all these great stories. And so that right there helped solidify my belief. I mean, I already believed it. Obviously I'm writing about it. But it's like, there is no doubt in my mind with all the anecdotal evidence that I've gotten of what people were given all kinds of signs. And as far as that car one, I love the stories, particularly where people said, I'm not going to do green cars or sunset beige or whatever. I am going to do, um, red cars with yellow polka dots, you know, let's, let's, let's step it up a notch. And sure enough, they would find red cars with yellow polka dots. Or one person said they were going to look for priests or something in a, in a habit or, or whatever it is the priests wear. And they were, they went, they kept driving by churches and you know, oh this, we know how to do this, we'll find this. And then the priest shows up in a totally unconventional way, and now I don't remember how it was, but so, you know, not only do we make these intentions, and then we figure out how this is going to happen, and that's that I know mind, which gets us in trouble, so if we just sort of let it go. But I've had so many fun stories from, from the experiments in the book, so. Yeah, that's been a real blessing in my life. Awesome.

Britt: 52:22

So is there anything new in your life that feels like a starting over? Or is there anything you're working on that you would consider maybe a starting over

Pam Grout: 52:30

point? Well, you know, again, like I said, I'm always starting over. I am, um, trying to learn Spanish. You know, I spent, um, most of the summer in Spain. And, uh, have been, you know, working on learning Spanish. And I feel like, you know, you learn a new language and it opens you up to a whole nother world in a sense. So that's like one more way, like people that speak five languages, you really, you know, you're, you really understand the world in a, in a much broader way. I think the people that speak one, like I do at this point, I do speak Australian though, I mean, I. I, I didn't, but that one's pretty easy. So, but yes, um, so that I'm, you know, working on another book again, you know, the ideas keep coming and that's my job is to be, you know, the satellite dish for the view. So yes, I've, I've got a new book and what this book that I'm writing is about is just all the ways that the ego tries to own us, you know, the ego wants our brains thinking the way it wants us to think instead of. Recognizing this truth about who we really are. So that's the book that I was given to write next. So that's, that's my current project and every book you're starting over, every project you're starting over, you know, you go through the same thing. Like, can I do this? Will it happen for me this time? I mean, it doesn't matter how, I mean, I had 20 books published and you still have those, that little voice, you know, that ego trying to tell you, yeah, you fooled them, you know, you can't do this. But. You know, you just can't listen to that voice. You have to just ignore it, say, thank you for sharing and move on.

Britt: 54:09

That's exciting. So we always end this with, uh, questions from our eight year old twins. So Eli's question is what are walls made out of

Pam Grout: 54:23

walls? Well, well, I mean, everything's made out of energy and you know, when you really break it down, there's really not even a wall there. It's like mostly air. It's like, 99. 9 percent energy and then just a little bit of material. So that's a good question, Eli. I like your question very much. And, um, when you figure it out, let me know, because all I know is it's energy moving and it's barely there and you can walk through walls. I believe I'm, you know, maybe Eli will be doing that. You know, he's as these younger ones are more advanced than me. I still have that belief that I cannot walk through a wall, but. I think Eli maybe do it. Sorry parents, I guess I shouldn't be encouraging that kind of behavior. It's

Lindsey: 55:05

fine. They can try. We're here for

Britt: 55:09

it. So Jack's question is, Do you have a secret lab with treasure, a time machine, and a hoverboard? You know,

Pam Grout: 55:15

I feel like in a way I do. Um, I feel like I have a treasure with All those things that I would want to do. I mean, I've known people that have hovered without a hoverboard. I've known people that, you know, again, when you, when you let go of the way you believe the world is, it's amazing what else happens. Okay. Repeat the other things. Cause I probably know someone that's done each of those things. The time machine. Yes. I think you can go back in time or go forward in time. And I've, I've heard of people doing that. And then what was the third one he mentioned? Let's see, it

Britt: 55:47

was Treasure, Hoverboard, and Time Machine.

Pam Grout: 55:50

Time Machine, yes. I mentioned Time Machine, the Hoverboard, and what was the first one? Treasure, yes. I feel like we all have treasure. I mean, I walk out my door, I look out my window, and there's treasures everywhere. And I really love those questions, and I think that's so cool that you guys let them participate. It's a family affair. I love it. In fact, maybe we should let kids ask all the questions, right? I

Lindsey: 56:14

think so, too. Yeah, we should do that episode, for sure. This has been such a great talk. Thank you so much, Pam.

Pam Grout: 56:21

Well, thank you. Well, I'm excited to hear more about your journey in Ojai and what's happening. So, thank you for letting me play a small part in it.

Lindsey: 56:31

Of course, yeah. You've been on the trip since we drove here, and I'm sure that will continue. Yeah,

Britt: 56:38

we were very excited that you agreed to come on the show. It's meant a lot to us. Yeah, well,

Pam Grout: 56:42

it's been fun. Thank you so much.