A Very Special Episode - Weed, Greed & the Need for Speed

The Tedcast is a deep dive podcast exploring the masterpiece that is Ted Lasso on Apple TV+.

Sponsored by Pajiba and The Antagonist, join Boss Emily Chambers and Coaches Bishop and Castleton as they ruminate on all things AFC Richmond.

Boss Emily Chambers
Coach Bishop
Coach Castleton

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:22

Welcome to our Ted Lasso talk, the Tedcast. Welcome all Greyhound fans, welcome all you sinners from the dog track and all the AFC Richmond fans around the world. It's the Lasso way around these parts with Coach, coach and Boss, without further ado, coach Castleton.

Speaker 2: 0:41

We're hip to him now. But no, seriously, I absolutely agree with you and there's so many times where I'm like I just wish there was just like a giant bong, like the world's bomb, the un, but just where everybody just gets high and just is like dude, yeah, don't invade there. Like that is so uncool. Like sometimes we get so like complicated and I'm like that is so fucking uncool. Why would you do that?

Speaker 3: 1:14

yeah, yeah, it's um. So just because, uh, our fearless leader pressed record before we explain anything, drugs are better than drinking.

Speaker 2: 1:27

That's sort of the premise Specifically psychedelics.

Speaker 3: 1:29

Yeah, specifically yeah, like weed, mushrooms, a little bit of acid and some other things Ecstasy. Now, when I was in high school, ecstasy was becoming popular and one of the things that everybody told us was if you do ecstasy, it feels great for a few hours and then for the next three to seven days, you're more depressed than you've ever been in your entire life. I had been told that, yes, so when I became an adult and was offered some ecstasy I was like, yeah, we'll give that a try.

Speaker 3: 1:59

and then if I'm depressed for three days I've done that before. I could figure that that out I will work from home those three days. And then I woke up the next morning and I was like I'm fucking tired because we stayed up until 6 am. But I'm fine. And I'm not saying that every side effect from any sort of drug is a scare tactic, but I do know that when I wake up after having five or six beers which is too many for me.

Speaker 3: 2:24

At this point I feel like shit. I feel not just physically bad, but also I'm like oh, what the fuck? Did I say something wrong?

Speaker 2: 2:32

Right Was I overly familiar when I did that.

Speaker 4: 2:34

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:35

Was I too much of an asshole and just like I feel shaky and depressed and gross and people are still like, hey, bud Light, let's do it.

Speaker 2: 2:43

It's amazing Also, my experience at least with, with some of, and I came to all this as an adult, so maybe I would have treated it differently if it was, if I had been 17. So I I acknowledge that part, but part of it, and it's not like I have all this wild experience. I've had a couple of experiences now, you know, but is I don't the, the, the, the part of um, that regret piece you just described, and also just the tone tends to be different. I feel like part of the tone very often around alcohol is like bring it on. Like it's like so, like right. But my sense, everyone, I know who's like oh, I tried mushrooms. It's like well, they tried it with someone who's done it and who could be like yeah, no, we're absolutely not going to do mushrooms and then get on a roller coaster. That's not a thing.

Speaker 2: 3:44

Whereas I feel like alcohol, like people just add alcohol to any scenario, like in this great, hey, let's have dollar beer night in cleveland. Guess how that turned out. You know what I mean. Like it's like we don't like there's not the same. I watched um, I know I'm ramble, but I watched, watched how to change your mind with Michael Pollan, and that's where I really got the clarity around, like set and setting, and I think that, like that ability to be like, hey, what's an appropriate place to do that? Why are we doing? What's the experience we want to have? Do we feel comfortable with everyone who's present experience we want to have? Do we feel comfortable with everyone who's present? Like? I don't remember other than like, don't get drunk around people you don't trust because they might do something to you.

Speaker 3: 4:30

But like, in terms of the experience, I don't remember that ever being a real conversation in terms of alcohol and it would have helped yeah you know, it would have helped a lot, yeah yeah, I think it's sort of my impression of all these things is that, uh, and now that uh, cannabis is legal in a lot of states, definitely in illinois yeah that is less of a we are going to. The intention of this is to get stoned like there used to be times where it was like we were going to beat up and we were going to get stoned.

Speaker 2: 5:02

That's going to be the thing that we do, and now that's not as much, right.

Speaker 3: 5:07

But it always felt like in high school and college and whatever else it was always we're going to do things that wouldn't ordinarily be fun, but we're going to add drinking to it and then it magically becomes fun. Even though that's not necessarily true.

Speaker 3: 5:23

I didn't enjoy a football game more well. Probably I enjoyed it more except, but like this was supposed to be mixed in fun, even though then sometimes people would be assholes and I would be worried about if I had handled myself incorrectly. And I did. I absolutely did not every time, but absolutely like 100 was I inappropriate?

Speaker 3: 5:45

yes, uh, yes, um, yeah. So I do think like I think people need a lot more therapy and I think drugs can be part of that therapy, and I think if people did more cannabis and mushrooms and even acid or ecstasy in order to figure out what they I don't I'm not saying that it's magical or that it's going to fix it for everybody, but there are plenty of people where things sort of click into place when you're thinking about it at that level. Even I have had a couple of things where I was like, oh, that that makes more sense, that like, and I've been getting stoned once a week since 2020, like for sure and there's still sometimes things that are clicking into place and I don't get that. When I have half a bottle of wine, when I have half a bottle of wine, I get bloated as fuck and have heartburn the next day, because that's the age I'm at and it can be yeah, there's also that to deal with.

Speaker 2: 6:40

It's just like your body just reacts differently to it. And I'll add to that that as a man, it seems I don't know the half, because women I know are like oh no, like you don't get it, like I have half a glass of wine and I feel like I've been hit by a bus in the morning. I'm like really.

Speaker 3: 7:00

Yeah, so that's a whole other conversation that we had.

Speaker 2: 7:01

Yeah, it's, I yeah, I don't think that there's been nearly enough. So that's a whole other conversation that we had.

Speaker 3: 7:05

Yeah, yeah, I don't think that there's been nearly enough. As much as we know the ramifications of alcohol consumption and alcoholism, I don't think that we've done enough to study just physically the differences between people when it comes to alcohol and how it affects them. I know that I am different from beer and wine, and hard liquor?

Speaker 2: 7:26

No, question no.

Speaker 3: 7:29

I know that there's a difference there.

Speaker 2: 7:31

No, there's specific hangovers and.

Speaker 3: 7:33

I know that specific hangovers at different kind of not different drunks, but I feel a little bit different. I don't know this entire point might have gotten away from all of us, but, um, mushrooms can be a lot of fun, and if you do them right yeah sometimes you discover you might want to become a farmer. Sometimes it just suits you. You're like, hey, I think I'm the greatest, we're not going to use any days, but yes, that could happen.

Speaker 2: 8:01

Yeah, um, yeah, no, I love. I will say this about it. It ties into what you just said. Even the idea of intention like what you just said, like hey.

Speaker 2: 8:13

I'm working on this, or I'm thinking about that, or I'm feeling like there's, I don't know. It's just a mindful quality that I've seen around it. Also, again, like I said, I've had a few. I don't mean to present like, oh, I'm some expert, I've had a few experiences and generally, because I've gone into it that way, that's not how generally drinking is either just sort of relaxed, whatever, or it's like I just fucking can't anymore.

Speaker 2: 8:40

Yes, I cannot yeah, so yeah, peace till tomorrow. And that's not the experience. Sure, that has its place, I guess, but that's not the kind of intention I've brought to those other experiences. And it's cool to be able to be like. You know what Such and such is bothering me.

Speaker 3: 9:05

I'm going to chill a little bit, make up my mind a little bit, relax a little bit and see if, if I can like like you say, get those pieces to fit together a little better. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's actually what you just said about. I can't until the morning. It's wild. To me it feels like alcohol in a lot of ways is the most dysfunctional drug to process things my god with absolutely. And we do it all the time.

Speaker 3: 9:25

There's a Dave Matthews band song called Grace is Gone and he says one drink to remember and another to forget. And it's like, yeah, you're going to have one drink and you're going to get beer tears and you're going to fucking cry about it and you're going to make a mess of yourself and your friends are going to have to take you home and put you to bed and then you're gonna not think about whatever it was that was making you sad, whereas if you were stoned or tripping in one way or another, you could be like, oh fuck, my grace is gone, god damn it now. I'm gonna have to deal with this shit.

Speaker 3: 9:55

So I don't know if, if it were up to me even though I still drink and I still, on occasion, do smoke tobacco cigarettes because everyone's throwing the cocktail it's amazing, even though I do both of those things, I and also, even though I don't believe in prohibition of, you know, substances that adults use, right, right, um, we should do way, way, way less of those and way, way, way more of like I'm just gonna have a tiny bit of an edible, yeah, before I go into work, and then I won't have to kill Cheryl.

Speaker 2: 10:32

And then it's great and I don't have to be fall over myself. Yes, Well intoxicated to have that difference be made like something about I don't know, and again, it could also be our relationship to alcohol, Maybe if we'd have been introduced in different ways, but like I feel, like certainly in my when, when I was younger, there was almost a like but how much alcohol can I consume?

Speaker 2: 10:52

challenge built into the whole thing. Let's do shots now, like no, like I shouldn't say no one, but I don't feel like people sit around high and then are like let's smoke five more blunts, like I think, like people are like I am now high and I'm good I am now hot.

Speaker 3: 11:05

Yeah, let's, let's maybe eat five bags of potato chips, but yes, no, there's. And. And so that for listeners outside of uh, the us, that might be wild that because I know, especially in european cultures, it is like 12 year olds in some countries can drink a glass of wine and you have a glass of wine with dinner and you were expected to not get intoxicated and not make a fool of yourself and not make a scene. And in college they do like they have people with just trays of sugary alcohol walking around and they're like hey, take this as a dollar, drink as many as you can. Can you drink six? Can?

Speaker 2: 11:43

you take six, you're cool, right.

Speaker 3: 11:45

Yes, yeah. So I don't know. We have such a terrible relationship with intoxicants in that we decide to binge as much to excess as you can. In some cases you are expected to drink alcohol and if you have ever tried Bolly or Ecstasy, people are like oh, watch out, that could be really dangerous. You don't want to put your baby in the microwave Fucking nobody's done that.

Speaker 2: 12:17

Yeah, you just made that up.

Speaker 3: 12:18

You made that shit up.

Speaker 2: 12:19

Right now, no one's done that. Hey coach, how's it going?

Speaker 3: 12:24

Hey, coach, you want to talk about Wayne.

Speaker 4: 12:29

I just wanted to see how long. How long would it go?

Speaker 3: 12:33

Forever. Are you kidding me? Yeah, seriously.

Speaker 4: 12:40

I think my two cents on all of that. I joined late. I was. I was navigating like sort of a pharmacy issue where I was like I I know we were supposed to start recording and I was like if I don't get this in on the Friday before Memorial day, you know what I mean Before somebody can address it, you know it'll be whatever, um, but I listened to what you're saying.

Speaker 4: 13:01

It's why I hit record. To me it boils down to a lot of things, but you know I'm not a huge drinker. Being around so many drunk people at so many social events has always been, you know, sort of interesting. You know in we know where, a toss sort of thing, sort of thing. I don't like being out of control, I don't like feeling lousy, I don't like paying for something that's supposed to be fun. But I will say I've always thought that the reason, the line I heard, which is why I hit record, was how much better would the world have been if all of the uh, all of the peer pressure, all of the instances, all of the uh modeling from adults about alcohol, had been about marijuana, and what? What type of world would it be? And that can't happen, because alcohol is the desired drug of the patriarchy, because alcohol lowers inhibition so you can be the real shithead that you want to be. Marijuana lends to, lends you introspection, which makes you analyze and and slow down and take, take stock, and you know what I mean. And so in in in their own, in their own ways, they are about escapism and about blotting things out or about experiencing them differently. But it's what one will. One will allow certain types of.

Speaker 4: 14:38

I've never, I've never been around people who got high and then started to fight. You know, I've just never been around it. Who got high and then started a fight. You know, I've just never been around it. Exactly, um, and and I talk a lot about the power of testosterone and I think it's like heroin and I think it's much more dangerous than people think as far as like what it does to a young um, like a teenage mind and how, how it sort of infects thought processes and um, not like it needs to be eradicated but needs to be understood and needs to be managed and people need to talk about it and needs to be considered.

Speaker 4: 15:08

And even in I could, I could find the most type A you know horrible guy and if he gets high, he's, he's going to have a really hard time. You know, sort of running those thoughts out to their. The conclusion he, that would satisfy the testosterone, if that makes any sense. Whereas a couple drinks and it means, yeah, man, I'm gonna get a couple more in me. I'll be that much closer to the monster that I, that testosterone is trying to make me. So anyway, um, late to the party on those those concepts, but um, uh, I, I loved what you guys were saying and I wanted to, uh, wanted to let you, want to let you talk for a little bit. Um, I, I want to say I, I, I am, I am the uh. Host of the podcast coach bishop and boss.

Speaker 4: 16:00

You've already heard from um. Uh, coach, bishop, you had something else.

Speaker 2: 16:04

I think that that piece on testosterone and I'm trying, I was trying, what I was trying to remember is one was I talking to you? And if I had been talking to you, was it during a recording? But there was there's a transgender man and it could be from one other conversation. I'm thinking of who who actually said, as a human being who has experienced the introduction of testosterone boy, howdy, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4: 16:32

And I just think, like we've said it a couple times on online online like while we're recording because that's what really opened my eyes, because for me I was like I think this is what it is really opened my eyes because for me I was like I think this is what it is and you would try to say, um, you know, I would try to talk to, uh, the women I know and, and invariably the, the answer is like you know what I'm fucking dealing with every day you know what I'm saying like it's like right, it's like, oh, I think you can keep it in your fucking pants and I'm like uh, yes, but do you do you know, like, what have you thought about in the last eight minutes?

Speaker 4: 17:07

Because I've thought about sex 87 times Like you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4: 17:26

Yeah, you're like, I'm not one. That was like okay, thank you for the validation from someone transitioning who was like, oh my fucking God, Like I'm a different person. I am ready to fuck somebody up at the slightest drop of a hat. You know what I mean. And they're like that's not me. And so what is it? It has to be that I'm on testosterone therapy and I'm like. That's why I mean I don't know why we whistle past the graveyard so much, but I'm always amazed by what we as a society condone and pretend isn't real. And you know, you just go like because I feel I feel like it cuts one of two ways.

Speaker 2: 18:05

even the way that we and like kind of went into it there and I'm really curious to get your, your take on this part, boss, is like either no, that's not a thing, it's just an excuse, right? Or well, you can't. Boys will be boys, and I'm like there's another option, which is it does have that impact and we need to develop ways of managing it, of understanding what's going on, of teaching a 17 year old boy. Yes, we know, you've got all the testosterone and none of the prefrontal work going on.

Speaker 4: 18:44

So 12, 12 year old boy, I mean seriously, like I can remember, this is actually true and I don't know why you say I guess because you said nine.

Speaker 2: 18:52

I remember being in second grade, right, and so it was the era of the like paint on jeans and my teacher came. I still remember watching her walk ahead of us in those jeans and I don't know what all sense I was making of it, but I know I was enjoying watching her walk around in them jeans. I know that I was in second grade. Yeah, are you yeah?

Speaker 3: 19:17

What the fuck? I don't want to minimize that, but I also like that that doesn't feel outside the realm of possibility. That seems like, yeah, I can imagine that's something that you noticed. I think I want to start by saying yes, especially to not validate, because I don't need to do that, but to acknowledge what a lot of trans people have said during their transitioning, that the hormonal impacts, specifically with the trans man talking about the effects of testosterone Absolutely. I don't want to pretend that that is not true or overblown or anything like that. I believe that that is true and accurate.

Speaker 3: 19:58

I think where I fall on this is over the spectrum of humanity. Some people will have a much greater. The impact of hormones will be much greater on them than on other people. There are going to be cis women who have higher levels of testosterone than some cis men. There's going to be a spectrum of how the hormones interact, where each person is, how much it impacts them. So I don't want to just say, like men have testosterone, and that's super hard to deal with, and women don't, so like that's the nature.

Speaker 3: 20:36

Part of this for me is that, yes, we should not pretend that hormones don't play a role in people's behavior it does.

Speaker 3: 20:43

This is also part of like the overall treating your entire body, like your entire body, where Snickers when they say you're not yourself when you're hungry, and we're like, yeah, you're also not yourself if you're dealing with depression or whatever else, and like, let's do that. I think the thing for me is that the nature, the nurture part of this is that we say men are impacted by their testosterone and therefore sometimes they can't control their emotions. So we need to let them off the hook for that. We need to acknowledge that it's going to be difficult for them to control themselves when they're a 16 year old horn dog like sometimes they might do something wrong. When they're a 16 year old horn dog like sometimes they might do something wrong. But then on the opposite side, we say, oh well, women are so emotional during their periods, we can't trust any of their decisions, they can't be in charge, we can't. We can't trust them on any of that stuff and that part doesn't need to be done at all.

Speaker 2: 21:49

We could say everybody is impacted by their hormones and then not have any other conclusions about what we should do with the behavior that's exhibited during those hormonal times. Yes, you are still responsible for your behavior.

Speaker 2: 21:56

You may have impulses and the impact of what you do and you posted, I want to say, on threads there's an outside chance it was Blue Sky, but I feel like you posted, like a guy, something about you explained it, but it was like he was being a lad, like all I know is I saw it and it made me want to punch a lot of people in the face and it was a couple, whatever. So, I'll let you explain what you posted, because I was yeah, yeah, so I'll let you explain what you posted because I was yeah, yeah, so it was.

Speaker 3: 22:27

I reposted and then added my own thoughts because of course I would. There is a footballer in England I want to very specifically say he is English, I'm not even going to put it on all the UK, he is English. His name is Michael Emery. The uk, he is english. Uh, his name is michael emory. He was just found not guilty in two counts of rape and one count of, uh, essentially distributing nude photos with the intention of hurting somebody.

Speaker 2: 22:58

Yes, I've walked it out, right got it yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 23:01

So a woman who he slept with, like she says I met him, I knew he was a footballer. We had consensual sex. I woke up in the middle of the night he was biting me and trying to have sex with me and when I said no, he kept going, which to me that's rape. I don't know what to tell you. If she says no, that's like it doesn't matter if she slept with you before or if you thought it was cool. She said no. He says that she never said no, so they didn't convict him.

Speaker 3: 23:30

On those two counts, that's fine she also says that it happened a second time that throughout the course of one evening, she woke up to him twice having sex with her even though she was saying no. So that's awesome. Um, yeah, yeah, the world sucks, uh. So in addition that a thing that she didn't know until the investigation started is that while she was asleep, he took a picture of her naked and sent it to everyone on his team, and it's pretty vile. It gets pretty vile the things that the text messages said back and forth. I think at one point he said like who wants a turn? Or something gross.

Speaker 2: 24:10

Yeah, I saw that. Who wants to go? I think is the phrase.

Speaker 3: 24:13

Who wants to go? Yeah, it's just.

Speaker 2: 24:15

Good God.

Speaker 3: 24:17

Oh Jesus. So apparently and I don't know enough about UK law to understand it fully what I have seen is that because his defense was I wasn't trying to smear her reputation, I wasn't trying to smear her, I wasn't trying to hurt her, I was just having a laugh with the boys. They didn't convict him of sending, of distributing the explicit material non-consensually. They they said that's fine. And on the stand one of the things he said was he regretted it, he wished he hadn't done it. He was just being a lad. Now, in british slang, being a lad is not. I was just being a funny little guy, a little boy. It's supposed to mean like I was being a gross misogynistic sexist.

Speaker 2: 25:09

Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 3: 25:10

Okay, thank you yeah yeah, that's supposed to be the connotation like he was just being a l. When you're a lad, you're just sort of, uh, gross sex pest. I suppose what pissed me off so much about it is that that was his defense, his fucking defense. What he said in his own defense was oh, I was just acting the way that a lot of guys act. I was just being disgusting, I was just being, I was violating her, I was sending materials without her consent, I was harming her in this very obvious way. That's. That's just what guys do, this very obvious way.

Speaker 2: 25:43

That's just what guys do. That's just how guys are. It'd be like if you had a recording of me saying that I grab women by the genitals.

Speaker 3: 25:50

Yes.

Speaker 2: 25:51

And then the defense I offered was hey, that's locker room, talk, that's locker room talk. I'm just saying hypothetically that seems like it would fit the model you're putting forth.

Speaker 3: 26:02

That fucking part pisses me off so much, especially because feminists of which I consider myself one um are often accused of being man haters and not liking men, and being angry because men won't date us and being pissed off because we're stuck at home with our cats, as if cats don't fucking rule. Give me a goddamn break on that. But feminists don't think that men are terrible. Feminists think that society allows men to act however the fuck they want, and sometimes that's horrible. And then society says we can't hold them accountable for their actions because that's just how men are. We don't think that. I think men are great. I think men can be great. I think that son of a bitch is using his gender in order to get away with doing some really horrible fucking shit because society allows it.

Speaker 2: 26:47

I love that you just said that. I think that's such a powerful reframe. I think men can be great, because I think when, even in frustration, when people say men are shit and I do think sometimes men are saying that right, but let's say, you know, we put it on, quote feminists. Sometimes men are saying that's right, but let's say, you know, we put it on, quote feminists, men are shit, it. It in its own way lends itself to the shitty defense because like, hey, what do you expect? I'm shit and I think the point is yeah, but you don't have to be.

Speaker 2: 27:20

There are things you can decide to do or not do. There are choices you can decide to do or not do. There are choices you can decide to make or not make, regardless of what your impulse was. Even if you stood over that woman and thought, which is in its own way, needs its own work, but even if you thought, ha ha, ha ha, if all my buddies could see her. Now where's the part of you? That just goes. But that is totally fucked up. I am not going to send nude pictures of someone who did not choose to have nude pictures out in public to my buddies so I can be a lad, like, honestly, you could have been a lad. You could have been a lad, you could have been an absolute pig in text.

Speaker 2: 28:05

Yeah, you could have said there's a really hot chick in my bed who wants to go. Would that still be disgusting? Yeah, but it wouldn't be the distribution of pornography.

Speaker 3: 28:16

Right and everything that you just said, absolutely One hundred percent. I don't want to blow past the fact that she accused him of actual sexual assault. Yeah, not at all.

Speaker 3: 28:28

And I don't want to make it sound like I'm minimizing that part. I just want to say he admitted there was evidence, there was physical proof that he 100% did do this and the excuse was well, I was doing it to be funny. So therefore it's fine, so it's not a problem if I was doing it to be funny. Also, at some other point we're going to have to get into a very long discussion about how society patriarchal society teaches men that women are less than, but also women are the only people that they should be disgusted and think less of, the people that they are supposed to have loving relationships with. And this is why so many men end up treating so many women like shit, because they don't like women. They like how women make them feel, and part of that is what they could do to tell their buddies about how cool they are.

Speaker 2: 29:22

What you just described is called the Harrison Butker paradox. I just named it, which is why it's called that.

Speaker 2: 29:31

No, but really because, like let's yeah, coach, sorry, we're not a deep dive show anymore. I don't know if anybody mentioned that to you. We're going to, we're going with this baby, we're riding this train. No, seriously, I think what you said is so fucking insightful and I think the way to to really get in is it in service of men, in service of the patriarchy. I say all the time about political situations and I'll keep this about the united states. That's where I was born, grew up, understand the best.

Speaker 2: 30:04

I say all the time when people are like can you imagine if this person did that? Or can you imagine, well, how can they argue this? I'm like, it's like, it's like a societal fortune cookie. You have to say in support of white supremacy. And if you say that it all makes sense, well, how can you defend harrison butker? But then, uh, when, when kaepernick took a knee, yeah, because kaepernick took a knee in opposition to white supremacy.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Harrison butker's totally gender specific statement is also in support of white supremacy and the patriarchy, so it can you have to add that to the end of the statement. So if you flip this around and I don't know that such a case has existed, I guess it certainly could where that woman wakes up and goes. Hey friends, I just got me a slice of professional footballer who wants to go. I could see her, even if she's not convicted of anything, being absolutely condemned. Why? Because it's not in support of the patriarchy Right, and that's the quiet part that I think, if people really look throughout the world of like wait, those two things don't line up. Yeah, because it's not the first part of it, it's the second part, it all needs to be in support of these structures.

Speaker 3: 31:37

Yes, yep, absolutely. I mean. This is why everything is explained the way that it constantly is. It's one of the things that I have started. When the men around me do this, I have started pushing back on them very specifically when they say things like oh well, like I'm a big dumb oaf, like, well, I don't know anything, I'm just. I don't know, I'm just bumbling around, I'm just a man, I don't, and I'm like no, you guys are in charge, so you need to fucking be in charge. Like the world says that you are the experts and you are the ones who are supposed to be leaders. So don't give me this bullshit about how you don't know what you're doing. Like it can't be both. It cannot be both.

Speaker 3: 32:16

We allow it to be both because in the service of white supremacist, patriarchal society they can say say well, of course I need to be in charge, but also I can't be responsible for my actions. That would be wild. And that's because it works for them. Then there is a built-in excuse as to why they must be in charge and can't do it well uh, and and then I will.

Speaker 2: 32:36

I will lay off coach, because poor coach is like, and this is not a real episode, okay, but I love the fact that you said responsibilities and I God who was it. I will remember who said this. But basically they said that on the West Coast, opposite Statue of Liberty, should be Statue of Accountability or something like that. I'll find it. It might have been Viktor Frankl, now that I'm like searching in my brain for it. But again, in support of these structures, those who are benefited by the structures get to claim the rights and deny the responsibilities, and those who are really under the structures are forced to take on the responsibilities and not have the rights. So a guy saw this morning and I had to turn it off because I was like I can't it's 6 o'clock in the morning, like I can't be homicidally angry at 6 o'clock in the morning. This is too much.

Speaker 2: 33:37

But he was going off and I guess this is sparked by the Sean P Diddy Combs stuff that's coming out. For those who are unaware, sean Combs, puffy Puff, daddy P Diddy is now being exposed for some really heinous stuff, including a video of him absolutely abusing Cassie, a woman who was signed to his label. It's a whole other conversation. We can do that some other time. But this guy's argument was well, a real woman doesn't know like knows a woman's place and isn't going to talk back. I'm like, oh, now women have to figure out how they should behave to be treated like fucking humans. Is that what we're doing? Are we really doing that, guys? Are we really going to stand here and go? If women knew how to act, they wouldn't get kissed in the face in a hotel hallway, like what the fuck kind of logic is that?

Speaker 3: 34:30

Yeah, yeah. There has been some stuff that recently, now that I'm older, and now that society itself is making some progress in a lot of these things Some of the stuff from when I was younger that even at the time, like I, I have been a feminist my entire life. As soon as I understood the concept, I was like yeah, no, that's that's what I am.

Speaker 3: 34:51

That makes sense. The the entire, my entire life. And now, when I look back at it, I'm like wait, hold on. I couldn't wear a tank top to school in in the middle of June when it was 87 degrees outside and we didn't have air conditioning because that would distract boys.

Speaker 3: 35:09

That's it. That is a fucking thing. Simple as that. That's that, that's it. And at the time it didn't even occur to me that way, and what I thought was oh well, it's not fair because boys don't wear tank tops. I didn't realize. Wait, it's not my fucking job to police your behavior. I'm not responsible for how you act.

Speaker 3: 35:26

Focus dude Focus Not just focus, but it's every time. I don't know nearly enough about Christianity to pretend that I do, but one of the things I do know for sure is that when Christian women say like, oh, you need to dress modestly as to not like make men lust, after you Fucking, jesus said pluck out your eye. Jesus said that shit, your guy told you not to.

Speaker 2: 35:52

You nailed that, by the way. You nailed it. No, I think that the whole. So I'm really.

Speaker 2: 36:03

There's some big, there's some ideas that I'm now looking at in a big way. You know, I shared the virtue vice thing. I swear I am right now in my life where I'm sort of just sort of looking at these big ideas and going, okay, like there's absolute chaos and every little situation seems to have its own details, but they do seem to be some basic and fundamental themes. I think that's why I'm latching on so much right now to paying attention to philosophy and so on. It's like I'm like, nah, yeah sure, harrison Bucker and Puffy and Kendrick and Drake and the presidential race, I get it. There's all these things and there's four criminal cases, but what are we actually fucking talking about? But what are we actually fucking talking about? And I think a lot of it comes down to the stuff that we've brought up here and that piece about pluck out your eye again.

Speaker 2: 36:54

There's nothing in christianity that says if you are tempted by other people, get rid of them or make them change. That is just not. You know, I had somebody tell me oh, about the Butker speech. Oh well, he, you know, he was just saying his Catholic beliefs. I was like, really, so it's Catholic doctrine in 2024. Could you please share that with me? Educate me? Oh well, people are entitled to their opinions. No, no, no, no. You said that he was sharing his Catholicism. That's what you said. So where is it? And they can't produce it because it's bullshit. It's utter bullshit. This is not about Catholicism or anything Christ would do or say or support. It's bullshit. And they use the power of that cross to shut everybody up. But if you look at it, it's like absolutely the fuck not.

Speaker 3: 37:57

Just not. Yes, I mean that like, oh God, I could talk for fucking ever about the extent to which Christians have and I don't want to say all Christians, but a lot of Christians have weaponized their faith in order to control other people's behaviors, instead of using it.

Speaker 4: 38:18

That's not limited to Christianity.

Speaker 3: 38:19

Not limited to Christianity, but also that, but in this country.

Speaker 2: 38:22

it's probably In this country.

Speaker 3: 38:25

It's a lot. So here's the thing. Even on this podcast, castleton, one of these times I am going to actually get around to discussing this Jesus story, but one of the times, when you were sort of tongue-in-cheek talking about Maureen, maureen McNulty, you said who is without sin cast the first stone, the line from the Bible Sure. So on the one hand, I could get into how there are literary scholars who say that that story isn't what we think it means. Now that historically it means something else. I don't want to bore people. What I'll say, though, is that what I should have said at the time was I don't a fuck what jesus says. Like jesus sounds smart.

Speaker 3: 39:10

Yes, from what I can tell, I know that, yeah, yeah from what I can tell, he seems like he was a pretty decent dude and I like a lot of the stuff that he said and I liked when he rolled into the fucking temple and flipped over all the money changers tables like I'm into a lot of that shit.

Speaker 3: 39:24

Jesus, we're going my favorite jesus, but also, at the same time, he is in. No that. That that's not an argument, that's not evidence or proof, or like saying that jesus said something is like if I told you that, uh, my boss tony said something. Hey, well, my boss tony said you should be nice to your co-workers. So you should be nice to your co-workers, what I don't?

Speaker 2: 39:48

great. Yeah, you just. You just touched on some. I'm for enough for a non-believer. You just touched on something, like I just was. I know you guys are like enough with these fucking videos over, but I promise you I was just watching this one.

Speaker 2: 40:04

This guy has a series that's amazing, but he was talking about pascal and he said, like there was, there's this diversion in thought that, like, people tend not to respect and it causes chaos. And essentially I don't have all the language down, I'm just learning myself but essentially, on the one hand, you have authority and on the one hand you have authority and on the other hand, you essentially have what we think of scientific thought right. So for a long time people would say the world works this way because, as Aristotle said, and that's authority, that's a whole way of being and faith tends to be on that track and a lot of things tend to be on that track. Where it gets chaotic is bringing that like you're saying about, when you say who cares what Jesus said or not, based on whatever we've decided is the criteria here.

Speaker 2: 41:09

But the criteria is not Aristotle said or Jesus said, or my boss Tony said, it's us looking at, for example, if does water run downhill, so I'm going to shit if Aristotle said it went uphill, we can go to all the hills with all the water and we can look at it and go. Yeah, no, we were all established. Now, that that's the way it is, and I think a lot of times what we run into is people who say, oh, but, but based on the authority to which I submit, it's this and the rest of us are like, like you just said, so yeah, yeah, that's the thing that I mean.

Speaker 3: 41:48

So, yeah, yeah, that's the thing I mean. To a believer, castleton, you mentioned to a believer, like to a believer. If Aristotle said this is how the world works, and you believe Aristotle, it makes perfect sense to me that you would follow that. It is when you tell other people, oh well, aristotle said this, ergo you should think this, that I'm like, well, that isn't how, just like basic plain logic works.

Speaker 3: 42:11

There are so many things that are framed in this way that, especially when it is a white cis man speaking where they say, oh well, objectively, from an objective perspective, this is, this is how things work and you like, there's nothing objective about what you just said. There's not a single thing. This has been touched on a few different social media sites, but fight or flight has been determined as being the two responses to danger during the actual like, when whoever it was that sort of came up with that idea, one of the things that in a note someplace or somewhere. I am getting this very wrong, but basically the person who developed that idea said we've also seen things like freeze or friend, but we're not going to include those because only women do that.

Speaker 2: 43:07

It's like bitch so only half of humanity does this response and therefore you think it's not important.

Speaker 3: 43:12

Jesus Christ, Like it's a valid. It becomes one of those things where, especially when we're talking about instances of assault or sexual assault, where the person being assaulted says I just froze and I didn't know what to do, and then they feel guilty because they didn't fight back, because they didn't try to run away. It is a natural response that keeps a lot of people alive. It is totally fine. If that's what you do, it is not on you, it is not your fault. None of this should impact what happened to you whatsoever. And people feel fucking guilty because it was invalidated as a response by some fucking dude 70 years ago.

Speaker 2: 43:48

I will share and it's a funnier story We've been touching on. But we went, we went, we went to, uh, when the kids were little and I guess I'm all full of memories because Maya's home for a week. So I'm just like dancing up and I'm like it's the four of us sitting around a table. This is awesome, dancing up and down like it's the four of us sitting around a table. This is awesome, um, but uh, my, we went to natural history museum. Probably it had to have been at any rate.

Speaker 2: 44:14

We go into the gift shop and there's a huge um, polar bear, you know, but like you know, in in, but standing, like it's huge, like in fairness and in retrospect, it's huge. Maya walks in, sees this thing, yelps and curls up on the floor in a ball, and so it took both daphne and me a second and then we both like totally lost it laughing, but like helped her up and like no, no, no, everything's okay, right, but it was I. Why I've thought about it so many times over the years. She was three years old and raised in los angeles and somehow she was like I need to convince this, motherfucker, I'm a rock.

Speaker 2: 45:03

I don't know where that's wired in over all these years, but I'm telling you, it was instantaneous. It was so fast that it took us a moment to figure out what just happened. And so, of course, I shouldn't say it like that, because things have to be studied, but based on any observation I've made of the world, of course freeze is a real thing like we've seen it. Based on any observation I've made of the world, of course freeze is a real thing Like we've seen it. Like why are we, you know, and I think that that then somehow does something to absolve whoever did the thing that made you freeze. That's the other part that's insidious about even having that part of the conversation.

Speaker 3: 45:44

Yeah, we have the phrase deer in the headlights. We know that it is a phenomenon that a lot of people have experienced and witnessed and because of who it primarily impacts, we have decided it isn't important, it's it's. It's the same way that we do all the shit like I think I've mentioned before. But um, old timey medical books, which we still base most of our medical studies on, would say that the standard is a white man and anything that is not that is one deviation away from there. So we will do medicine for a white man and if you happen to have a uterus or if you have parts that men traditionally didn't have, then those were separate.

Speaker 3: 46:29

That wasn't regular medicine. We're not going to factor in. Oh, women usually actually are physically colder, like on average, not everyone. If you put it above 72 degrees in my house I will murder you, so I run hot. But on average women are a little bit colder. So setting the thermostat in summer at 68 degrees in the office fucks with us and it pisses us off and we have to fucking deal with it because men are supposed to be the standard.

Speaker 2: 46:58

Yeah To all of that. And I would toss in what is the cumulative effect of 68 degrees everywhere you go? Right, so your response to trauma wrong. Figure it out. You should have responded the way I would have responded 68 degrees, you should walk around in the middle of summer with a frigging parka, right? Yes? What is the cumulative effect of doing that at every turn? What a serving is? How much of a medicine should you take? When people talk about microaggressions, I think it's accurate, but it becomes problematic in the conversation because it makes it seem like no big deal. Yes, and it's not. That it's no big deal is that they're individually small. What you then want to look at is the cumulative effect. Like, the microaggression is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back and there's a way of like that's no big deal, that's just one straw. Oh, that's just one straw, that's just one. It's like, yeah, but you're doing that on purpose, because you know, if we look at this big picture, there's a whole lot on that camel's back before it breaks. Yes, you know.

Speaker 3: 48:23

And I love so much that you this is, I think, the second time you specifically brought up the cumulative of impacts and the effects, and it is absolutely true for women. I cannot walk fast without acknowledging how much harder it is for people of color, especially black people, with all the microaggressions and it's things that like, obviously you don't want people saying racist shit. That's always a fucking issue and it bothers you, like I know from hearing sexist things like it. Just it fucking weighs on you and so there's literally that. But it's also stuff like most CVSs in specific areas don't carry hair care products for black hair or curly hair.

Speaker 3: 49:06

Or doctors think that black people need less pain medication, like it is fucking wild that there is shit that people cannot buy in their own neighborhoods because of the way that greater society acts and and that we don't think that it's that big of a deal. Oh, is it really that big of a problem if you have to special order it? Yes, it fucking is. It really fucking is.

Speaker 2: 49:34

Hey coach.

Speaker 3: 49:38

Remember a couple episodes ago where you were like man, I can't wait for the two of you to just talk at each other. You were like this is great, and now it's been 45 minutes and you said three things and this is your podcast, yeah hey, welcome.

Speaker 4: 49:56

I'm your host, not anymore hey, welcome, we've got special guest castleton I, um, I remember, uh, the moment when I realized that if I had skin the color of Orlando's, that all Band-Aids would be visible and I was like, what would I?

Speaker 3: 50:19

Oh, my God, I always think of writing.

Speaker 2: 50:20

That's a little Right. That's a perfect.

Speaker 4: 50:22

It's a little thing, but like when I'm hurt I have to put a white person's suture on it or a white person's covering. I always want to do a scene in a movie or film or show or whatever where it's just a little girl with dark skin, put that white band-aid on and just stare at it. I'm like, oh, it's such a good you know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 50:44

They fucking call it nude.

Speaker 2: 50:47

They, it's such a good, and they, you know, it's like a they fucking call it nude. They call it like yeah, it's not just like it, it is, yeah, that is how it is sold flesh or whatever, yeah, nude or whatever. It's like, really like, yeah, no, I I. It's interesting, you know, I know we did the open in our last recording for this 10th episode, and one of the things that I have enjoyed about Wayne and you talked about why, coach, you've asked, do we get, why you brought this in, and I'm glad you did. I'm really glad I got to see Wayne.

Speaker 2: 51:21

There's no version of the universe where I would have ever watched it, except this version of the universe. Like, there's no. Like, even if you said to me oh, this is a cool thing, like my list of oh there's this cool thing is so long, like I just never, and I think it's fantastic. Like I think it is just yeah, it is superb. It is, you know, top 10% of shit. I've seen. It is, you know, top 10% of shit I've seen.

Speaker 2: 51:46

One of the things I like about it, though, is I feel like it does bump us up against some of the things we're describing here. It does bump us up against and without knowing like, this is the episode where we're going to teach you about right, but the issues of class, the issues of what it is to be a man, the issues of you know also, how do women relate to each other, how do women relate to the men in their lives? But we talk about talk. You know people get upset with talking about toxic masculinity and I could see where, like oh my God, are we celebrating that Wayne beat some guy up as his way to solve? You know, this guy was blackmailing Dell and my reaction is yeah, fuck, yeah, yep, I don't. I, for me, that's not toxic masculinity. That is using what you have for the greater good.

Speaker 3: 52:36

Yes.

Speaker 2: 52:37

This guy is being a fucking animal and I'm like not going to stand for it, you know, and and I'm with it. So to me it it forces us to ask some of these questions and to get real about like it's not just about, oh, you know, when people are like, oh, we're, we're. You know there's some nasty versions of it, I will use a better, a nicer one, but for the feminization of men, and I'm like, is it feminization or is it decency? Like is it just fucking decency? If you really are the leader and you really are the most strong and all these things that you want to stand up with your, you know, your, your neatly brushed beard and declare, then shouldn't you be doing things that benefit those who you are quote, unquote leading and, and and part of the thing is like viewing leading in these contexts, like if I hear one more and and it's this part seems to be have a particular hold amongst black men of women needing to submit, like this guy, and then you've got some biblical shit in there, like it gets real deep, real quick, and I'm like, okay, let's, let's grant you the submit thing for a second that you should be the leader.

Speaker 2: 53:56

Where the fuck are you leading everyone? Yeah, leading is leading. Leading is saying hey, let's go over there, like, see there, that place, over there, I'm, I will lead us over there. Leading is not hey, everybody come stand over here so I can stand on your fucking neck. Leading is not british royalty being carried through some african village on people's shoulders to show how majestic they are. That's not leadership, that's exploitation, that's fucking abuse, that's a whole bunch of other words Like no, no, no, no, no. Leadership is hey, follow me, I'm taking us somewhere.

Speaker 2: 54:38

Yes, and that's what I want, and to me, wayne, is that yeah, I love that you said it that way.

Speaker 3: 54:45

It is, the difference between. Submission is only about somebody being below you. That's right Leadership is something else and in that case, like God knows, I fucking love violence, I do. I'd like we that's a T-shirt.

Speaker 3: 55:02

One of the when Coach Castleton and I covered episode nine while Bishop was out. One of the things that you mentioned, castleton, was maybe I'm not into Timmy Chalamet Chalamet, however you pronounce his name 100% believe. The roots of my attraction to different men are deep in patriarchy. Like I can't help it that I was born at a time where Han Solo was the hottest shit in the entire world and he very blatantly disregarded what Princess Leia was telling him. Like that that is what I was born into.

Speaker 3: 55:43

So there's a part of this where, like, there is still something hot about men punching people for the right reasons. We will get to that later in this episode.

Speaker 2: 55:52

Let me tell you for sure, yeah, boy, will we.

Speaker 3: 55:56

So, like I don't know, I can't change it, I can't make it different. It's 40 years in the making, it's where I'm at, but we can still 100% look at the act of violence and determine is it justified, was it called for? Was the person who committed the violence willing to take the ramifications of the actions? We can still do all of that. There's a big part of toxic masculinity that is. The answer to every problem is you punch it in the face. And when you punch it in the face, you say, oh well, I had to like I'm a guy what do you want?

Speaker 3: 56:35

no, no responsibility, no reflection. When you do those things, it can become very toxically masculine, toxic masculinity, and especially when it is a hey, tell me about your feelings about this. And they say I'm going to go punch a guy instead. Like, not every punch is, but we can determine which punches are.

Speaker 2: 56:59

Yes To everything you just said and I think people hide sometimes behind, think people hide sometimes behind language that feels right, but again, like I listen to, because I less and less uh frequently actually pick up a physical book because it works better for me this way but I would listen to. Now I'm like on my second time through uh, marcus, marcus, aurelius' meditations and so much and so.

Speaker 3: 57:31

Yes, with the twins.

Speaker 2: 57:36

But so much of that is about him going be a good guy. So much Like so. Everyone talks about it. So like so, like everyone talks about it. It's like oh, man, man, man, and I'm like at every turn. He's like don't be a dick. Just because you could have sex with anyone at any time doesn't mean you should do it Just because you could take everybody's shit. You are, you are the dude, you can just be like everybody. Bring me all your shit right now. Don't do that.

Speaker 2: 58:09

If people try to fucking murder you, rather than destroy them and prove how powerful you are, bring everybody together and teach them a lesson about mercy. That's what's in there. And, like you say, somehow, from a lot of these texts and a lot of these you know things that we have and models that we have out there, the only piece that some men pull out of it is yeah, punch people in the face If, in doubt, punch no. No, I'm not saying you should never put a smiley face, but I am saying you got to have more than one tool in your tool bag if you're going to be anything really in this world. But if you're going to be a man, you have to have more than one tool in your tool bag and this tool is like having a lot of horrific impacts on the world. Seriously, the fact that that's our answer to just about everything is bomb them, shoot them, punch them in the face. Like you, I think violence has its place, but it's a place. It's not every place all the time.

Speaker 3: 59:28

Yeah, just to make sure that we are very fair, there are plenty of women out there that have the same feeling. Toxic masculinity is not reserved only for men. There are plenty of women that traffic in toxic masculinity also. I think for me, the biggest part in getting through all of that is you tell me what your goal is, you tell me how you're planning to get there and we could evaluate that. So I don't think that there's ever any one way to do any single thing. If you want to have a happy family, if that's your goal, let's talk about how you're planning to do that. If your plan for that is well, I'm the man and I have a job, so I don't have to do anything else. You're not going to. You're going to fail. That that's not going to cut it anymore. You're going to fail. So in those cases, it's not about just how you're doing things. It is are you doing things in the right ways to accomplish?

Speaker 2: 1:00:28

you just described the heart and soul of a line performance seriously oh, you did that that's always like.

Speaker 2: 1:00:35

It's always like, hey, where are we going? Right, it was like how do like? And that's it like. That's positive and negative, like that's it. Like.

Speaker 2: 1:00:43

You know, and I'm not into, you know, oh, yell, don't, I don't, who am I? Just I don't know what's gonna make the most sense along your path, necessarily, but it's what you just described. What are we doing? And then what are our parameters on that? And let's stay in this lane. And, yeah, I will say we talked last time a little bit about like having a code and the importance of that, and I think that's also built into this, that the code can't just be in my, my opinion I shouldn't say can't just be, because it has been but I don't think we're best served by the code being. Men are above women and boys will be boys. I think to me and I remember saying this very pointedly to uh, alex, my son, when, when he was little, I told him I was like a tough guy is not the guy who pushes people around. A tough guy is the guy who protects the people who get pushed around.

Speaker 2: 1:01:42

Yeah, I was like that's who I want you to be. And he, for all his mild-mannered ways, the few times I've seen him be like fight mad, it's because he was like oh hell, no, you're not getting away with that. And I really believe that, I really feel that strongly that that's what Wayne is here. The opening scene we all watched. The guy didn't come over and push Wayne Right. The guy didn't say anything to Wayne, but he was like nope, you're not terrorizing that mother and child. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, I'm not, not while I'm sitting here with my hammer. Nope.

Speaker 3: 1:02:28

Yeah, and I think that's why we responded so well to Wayne, like he isn't being a bully. He was, and I think that's why we responded so well to. Wayne, like he, he isn't being a bully. He was standing up to the bully.

Speaker 2: 1:02:34

Exactly, and he's yes, he's, he's, yeah, he's like the anti bully. If we watch him throughout this show, the one thing you know is if you watch somebody being a bully and wage presence, they are going to get fucked up, and I think that's why there's a catharsis around these. When he nails that kid in the hallway, I'm like I hope all your teeth are out. You fucking jerk right. And the guy with the workers he put a nail through somebody's hand and my reaction was sweet, you know, because fuck that shit, you know, and I think it matters.

Speaker 2: 1:03:14

I I think, yeah, anyway, obviously I can go on about this because I have, uh, but yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important. I think we have to ask some some pretty big questions and and force each other to answer them, and I like, and I like that that's something that we're doing in all these conversations. Whether it's Jamie getting that you know, don't play to me, play through me or it's Wayne in this bowling alley, or it's any of the other issues we touch on. It's like I want to do this better. I would love to just know that I was a part of conversations that help people think about, like, how do we do this better? How can we like because I don't want to divorce from manhood, I like, I like being a dude, I like, you know, like something, but how do we use it for the greater good? I guess that's where I always come back to is like what's for the greater good? And if it's just I I I'm man, big, strong I can take everything like what really like?

Speaker 3: 1:04:13

that's, that's all we got yeah, like, yeah, no, that that difference between are you a man because you do things that a man does, or are you a man because you don't have anything else to fall back on?

Speaker 2: 1:04:35

are you a man? Because you don't have anything else to fall back on. Look at, coach's eyebrows just went up. I didn't even know that was physically possible. Coach's eyebrows just almost like ejected from his head. They were that's, yeah, that's, yeah, that's because you have nothing else to fall back on. Who am I? I'm a man, okay, okay. But I think you're right. That's what leads you to submit to me, because if you don't submit to me, then how will I know I'm a man where it's like no, I know I'm a man because I am going through the world and protecting where I can protect or doing whatever. It doesn't even have to just be protecting.

Speaker 3: 1:05:12

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:05:13

Maybe it's because I am a man, because I do the dishes Every time I think of it. I do the dishes because I'm advancing the greater good of this household.

Speaker 3: 1:05:23

Yeah, I definitely. I do want to divorce from manhood the idea that it needs to be tough, physical, violent, protector. And uh, I know that I've mentioned this before, but there's uh an internet meme where it's, you know, like the the prepper, saying like, well, I have all these guns and I have all this canned food and I have all this stuff like bottled water, because I need to protect my family. And then it got, or whatever it is. The figure is like uh, oh, I need you to wash clothes, I need you to do laundry, because if your kids are gross, they're gonna get sick and if they get sick, they're maybe gonna die. You need to watch, in order to be a man and do everything for your family, that you need to do wash laundry all day long, and I think that that should be manhood too absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:06:09

I know how to bake a souffle.

Speaker 3: 1:06:11

I am a fucking man like yes, great job, wonderful while the kids.

Speaker 2: 1:06:16

There's a dinner. You know I always make for my kids like a soul food, and I actually made it for the, the, the fantasy league. They rather enjoyed it. I felt very good about that and that's, that is the official. I love you meal from me and they'll get it and I'll be like do you want me to? Yep, okay, I want it, we'll do it. And, yeah, I think absolutely it doesn't have to look, it doesn't have to be done stereotypically and actually it shouldn't be done stereotypically. I think, okay, wow, you just helped me bring together a whole bunch of ideas.

Speaker 2: 1:06:58

I know I went nuts and I I realized it in real time that, like you probably sound like a raving lunatic when we got to total football and I was just like, oh my god, oh my god, this is right, but what we're talking about is total manhood. Right now. It's saying what does the team need? Does the team need me to go up there and try to score a goal? Not always. Sometimes the team if I'm jamie, I could be the last line of defense when you don't even think there is a line of defense and I jump and and save a goal and hurt my ankle doing it. That's not where Jamie quote belongs. Jamie's the striker, jamie's hey, me, me, me right, but he got that like no. The thing to be is what the situation calls on me to be for the good of the team, and I think it's all like that. So, yes, washing the clothes can be as important as making sure we're locked and loaded when the violence is going to go down. It's what does the team need me to be, and I think a lot of times the team needs us to be doing something that coach has been calling out specifically, which is raising better boys.

Speaker 2: 1:08:14

And if you think your son is going to be any different than the generation before watching you explain why, oh, you don't wash dishes, you're wrong, because it adds into that women are less than they can do that lesser job. I'm here to do the things I think are big and manly and important, as opposed to what needs to be done. Be a good teammate in humanity, like. If we viewed humanity as our team. You couldn't have gaza could be.

Speaker 2: 1:08:50

What the fuck are you crazy like? Yeah, listen, wrong, right, on all sides. You couldn't have Gaza. What the fuck Are you crazy? Listen, wrong, right, on all sides. You couldn't have it because it'd be like that's fucking crazy and it'd be like starting a shootout in your own locker room. Yes, that's like I don't know what we're going to do and I don't know what offense we're going to play. But here's what I can tell you. We probably shouldn't start a shootout in our own locker room. That's probably a bad idea, but because we don't see ourselves as a team. You can do some heinous shit, and I think that footballer he saw the guys on that text thread as part of his team, but he did not see that woman as part of his team.

Speaker 3: 1:09:30

Yes, Fucking exactly.

Speaker 2: 1:09:33

And we have to start seeing all of humanity as part of our team. Do I get that there are borders? Sure, do I get that there can be opposition? Absolutely, but on a fundamental level and I'm just going now. But like even the way we talk about capitalism. Recently Red Lobster closed down.

Speaker 2: 1:09:55

I wasn't a big Red Lobster guy. I have a shellfish allergy, so I'm not exactly their target audience. But a lot of people like going to Red Lobster and great Well, a hedge fund came in. They didn't lose out because they didn't sell enough shrimp. A hedge fund came in and basically Toys R Us them and just basically pulled all the value out. They totally Gordon Gekkoed to tie it to something else. Coaches mentioned Red Lobster and now Red Lobster is gone. So anybody who loved going to get those biscuits, or that's where we go for birthdays or whatever, loses out.

Speaker 2: 1:10:28

But my thing is, if that hedge fund viewed itself as part of a larger team, as part of a society, you couldn't behave that way. You can't stagnate wages. If you are that way. You can't give somebody who fucked up their job $400 million to leave while telling a union you can't even fucking form here or we will make your life a living misery. You could not do it if we viewed humanity, our society, the entire country as a team. You just couldn't. You couldn't have Dobbs. I know I'm just going now but it's all coming up, but I'm serious, it's how we view who's on our team and I think we got to have a conversation about that. Why does that guy have sex with a person and view them as so other that he could do that?

Speaker 3: 1:11:29

Yeah, yeah, that he could do that, yeah, yeah, and I think my hope, at least, is that it's part of what you're talking about is based on most of humanity living in a resource scarce environment, and so there was a time where my safety.

Speaker 4: 1:11:46

Perceived Right. Yes, yes.

Speaker 3: 1:11:49

That my safety and your safety might be mutually exclusive, that that could be the case, and hopefully we'll move into a place where that's no longer the case and we can get better. But I am obviously not a touchy feely person. I am not thinking like oh well, everybody's my brother and sister and we're all gonna right I'm gonna.

Speaker 3: 1:12:10

If it doesn't I. I have no problem appealing to people's emotions and saying like, yes, we should want to take care of everybody. But also logically, just from a very like intellectual perspective, if somebody can take away somebody else's rights or somebody else's safety or somebody else's whatever else, they can take away yours. You will never get to a point where you can make sure that the person at the top doesn't want your shit too of. If this is the system, if this is the process, that the top can take the fucking money out of red lobster, can suck all of the value out of a restaurant chain, they can fucking come for you so in that that case.

Speaker 3: 1:12:53

It isn't about like oh well, I'm on part of the team that's winning, so it's fine it is. I am on part of the team that needs to be protected, and that's fucking everybody. Everybody needs to be protected.

Speaker 2: 1:13:04

Yes, and also I would say, protected. But then in the protection, is the opportunity to flourish Protected?

Speaker 2: 1:13:13

but then in the protection is the opportunity to flourish. So part of the problem again, looking at this pragmatically is a problem, right? I'm using that as my example. Well, the people who are shivering are less likely to figure out how to run this business better. They're less likely to be adding significant value. They're less like right, like, if we want the company to thrive, we absolutely should be creating a situation where, as much as possible, everybody is comfortable and fed.

Speaker 2: 1:14:06

And, like you said that about the Snickers commercial, one of the things I was told about rage which asked me why somebody was talking to me about rage but anyway was to be aware of HALT, right, and HALT is hungry, angry, lonely, tired, right, why wouldn't we do all we possibly can to get all of that off the table so that we could figure out?

Speaker 2: 1:14:30

You've got something to add. I remember when I was doing dei work, at one point they talked about how, um, was it flaming hot cheese? It was one of those like snacks that, like burst on the scene, basically came out of the company, just sort of saying everybody like, hey, what's some shit you like to eat, like, what are some flavors you think would be interesting? And then some, you know, and I I'm very much boiling that down, but like you don't get to that point until you decide hey, let's not have the, the proverbial thermostat at 68, so that people can think straight, so they can contribute yeah, and also because this is a TV show where once upon a time we talked about Ted Lasso.

Speaker 3: 1:15:12

That is, tapping into the same sort of Ted didn't see himself as being too good to get ideas from the kit man. So if Nate had a? Good idea he was going to be okay with that idea. He wasn't going to put space on the hierarchy between himself and Nate and say, oh well, why the fuck would you have any idea?

Speaker 3: 1:15:32

Like and this is another one of those cases where it's like you have somebody on the team who is brilliant and you're not utilizing them because the old structure says that it's more important for you to be in charge and be more powerful than they are than to actually make the team better. This is shockingly given how narcissistic I can be at times and how full of myself, and the fact that one time I was trying on a dress for a wedding shower and I was with my mom and my other sister and when I came out I was like well, I'm pretty sure the term bombshell was thrown around. My sister was like by you you're the one that said you look like a bombshell that was.

Speaker 3: 1:16:15

that was you, was you anyway? All that aside, I actually very firmly believe in the like, death of the ego, like, and that coming out in a bunch of different ways. One, I'm not better than other people too. I am not so good that I can't have never been wrong, nor can I never be wrong in the future. I will be wrong. I will be wrong a lot. It's fine, we could fucking figure that out. And also that my sort of need for humanity and need of this stuff, that humanity that's the same among everybody. Donald Trump does not shit differently for me because he's a billionaire, maybe because of his McDonald's diet.

Speaker 2: 1:16:56

That could play in.

Speaker 3: 1:16:57

That might be playing into it, but, like, every human being functions in mostly the same way. You are not better than me because you have more money or because you are married or have kids or whatever else. Like, I feel like there's so much that people don't have the sort of underlying base of knowing who they are and liking who they are and they rely on these things. Like I'm a white male, I should be in charge. Well, I'm the head of the household, I'm the husband, why wouldn't I be in charge?

Speaker 4: 1:17:29

Well, you can't fall back on that.

Speaker 3: 1:17:31

There's nothing there.

Speaker 2: 1:17:33

I think too. It then speaks to how do we earn it? Right, If we take away the presupposition, then it's okay. You want to be in charge. You want everybody to look at you with love and respect in their eyes and to revere you. Well, you better get to work. What are you going to do? How are you going to act? What? Are you? Going to sacrifice All the things that are going to make the people around you go. I follow that one.

Speaker 3: 1:18:03

Yeah, that's. It is why I have, especially over the past few years, tried more and more to disregard whatever possible motivation or intention, which I'm not. I'm not to say that I am getting rid of it completely. There is a big difference between somebody accidentally stepping on my foot and somebody coming over and like smashing it as much as they can.

Speaker 3: 1:18:26

Those two things are different. But if somebody says, especially my fucking favorite, the one I love so goddamn much, oh, I was just joking, oh you were joking. No, no, I don't care if you were joking, what you said was shitty and it hurt that person's feelings so, like, maybe you thought that you were joking. What you were trying to do is reduce the impact of what you said, and you can't reduce that part. You need to own that part. So tell me what you did and let's talk about how to either congratulate you because you did a great job or fix that because you did a shitty job, but you telling me that you didn't want to injure the woman whose nude photos you spread to a team full of men. Also, I forgot to mention this earlier, but motherfuckers call it, being a lad 31 years old, motherfucking 31 years old nothing about that is being a lad you're a fully grown man you play professional sports.

Speaker 2: 1:19:24

You are not a child we get to hold on to. Boys will be boys until we die, and it it is insane.

Speaker 2: 1:19:33

And like what do you mean? Boys Like I'm, like you have been a voting age for a long time, you almost as long as you weren't. How are you a boy, a lad, like, wait a minute? Yeah, no, it's an extension of the rights versus responsibilities, because I have the right to send this text but I don't have the responsibility of the impact it has on this woman's life. And then the, the part that I think goes on I'm not undiscussed, but under discussed is the impact it has on those teammates, the impact it has on the boy who sees this story and goes oh, someday if I ha, ha, ha, someday, if I'm a bit, if I play football, well enough, I can do fucking anything. I can demoralize and dehumanize and whatever I want, because I'll be being a lad, yeah, and I'm playing a boy's game, so I guess I'm a lad. Until further notice it's the damage goes beyond her. I don't, again, mean to minimize the impact on her, that is not what I'm saying, but I'm saying I think we sometimes don't recognize the impact on us.

Speaker 2: 1:20:41

I was in high school. I had an English teacher who was like that English teacher, just the one who opened your brain up to ideas. He was the first person who was like I can throw this at you and it'll never hit you, and you're like what it's like? Well, do you agree that it would have to travel half the distance and half the distance and I'm sitting there going holy shit, there's never going to hit me, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:20:59

But like your brain, like your brain, like you have to, you know, having us admit it was a room full of guys, as I remember it, maybe there were, uh, some girls present, but I think it was all boys in the room and he said think about what it's like when you walk past a newsstand and see playboy or jugs or penthouse or whatever, and where your brain is the next time you look at a woman. And I was like, oh, because we like to think of ourselves as like, oh, I see this and I'm blah, blah, blah and everything's separate. I'm like everything is not separate and you just cannot make a legitimate argument that you can walk by a newsstand full of those images and then engage the next woman, you see, without that impacting in some way that interaction. You just can't do it. It's not how brains work.

Speaker 3: 1:21:58

And I don't have any problem with ethically made pornography or being sex positive none of those things. Everybody knows. I'm at heart a slut, even if I can't in action accomplish, it's who I am on the inside.

Speaker 2: 1:22:18

Another t-shirt. Our merch situation did a big boost today. That's hilarious. Everybody knows I am at heart a slut. Love it, come on.

Speaker 3: 1:22:26

Non-practicing but sure Love it. It's just like come on, non-practicing but sure so. It isn't the impact, it's not about the sex. It isn't the sex that's the issue. It is the commoditization of women's bodies yes, and it's the same way that people talk about how Hugh Hefner was so great for the sexual revolution.

Speaker 2: 1:22:49

I know.

Speaker 3: 1:22:55

I'm like well for people who are attracted to straight, big boob, blonde haired ladies. If you were into that, he was great for you. If you were into anything else, then what you were into has now been even more marginalized like right, that's a great point if you like a thick girl, you are not gonna find one in the 1980s or 1990s playboy. That is not going to happen.

Speaker 3: 1:23:14

And all of a sudden, what you do like is weird, because this is what people are supposed to yeah, that's the model, yep so it's this weird like unwillingness to allow people to be who they are and like what they like, and insist, insist that in order to fit the mold of manhood, you have to do these things, you have to do these things, you have to like these things, and then also that mold is completely empty. These things don't mean anything. Exerting power over other people is only important if it leads to bigger things. Just saying like I could beat up a child, okay, is that going to get you anything? Do you feel better?

Speaker 2: 1:23:48

Right, other than I get to feel big. What does that profit? And, and I think again, if we're you know this opening scene and the I wouldn't. There's not domestic violence in this scene. And I do think it's incredibly important to be precise when we discuss these issues, because I think people get way carried away and then it seems like you can dismiss all of it because people are just being, you know, over the top. So we do not see this person, do not? We do not see this man strike boy or wife, and we may make assumptions, but that's not what we saw. But I will say we saw emotional violence. Well, yes, and thank you for which counts?

Speaker 4: 1:24:30

which counts as domestic violence? I mean, we didn't see, yeah, no, you're you know, as domestic violence? I mean we didn't see physical.

Speaker 2: 1:24:33

Yeah, no, you know what? You're 100% right. We did not see physical violence, which is what I meant when I said violence. So, yes, I guess. What I would add to it, though, is if you're saying I'm going to make make this boy because he thinks he is raising a better boy, we may say, wow, you are wrong about that, but I think he does. He's like that's why he's so soft. Now, right, it's his job to make him. All this other stuff I think there is.

Speaker 2: 1:25:17

We have to demand an ongoing, like truly never ending, conversation, because the world will change, which means that these answers will change, which means we'll ask new questions. But we have to constantly be asking ourselves what is? What is the content that boss is pointing out is missing, right? So, like when we say be a man, man, actually that was a different thing in 1950, one because I think we had structures, blah, blah, blah. But I think also it was a different fucking world. You couldn't take a picture of some woman in your bed and have it to your buddies at every corner of the earth in 10 seconds. If in 1950, that wasn't a thing, then. So we have to redefine it, we have to go. You can't just go into some woman's dms and send a picture of your eggplant because, like that wasn't a thing then, but now we we're. So I think we have to be providing constantly conversation around and real answers around.

Speaker 2: 1:26:16

The content that you're saying is missing and I think that is maybe more than I recognize this very moment is every conversation I hear about, oh, the feminization of men and we're the real men and we need to be men again suggests we're going to go backward in time and find this version of manhood that will work for all of time. That just exists and I'm saying no, it necessarily evolves as the world around it changes, as the circumstances change. Frankly, as we realize that the binary we have been using is utter bullshit, it is incorrect, like that's not a political statement, that is biology. It is simply not true that all human beings have either X, x or X Y, and that's it, and never the twain shall meet. That is just wrong, and that's it, and never the twain shall meet. That is just wrong.

Speaker 2: 1:27:11

So how do we define manhood in quotes, in a world where we're really dealing with a continuum, where we're really dealing with a spectrum, where we're really dealing with four, five, six categories we're aware of now Doesn't mean that could be 55 in another 50 years, we don't know. So we're going to have to redefine it, we're going to have to keep having the conversation and I just feel like we lock into it's this or it's that, or it's this or it's that. And I think it should be moving and it should be individual. It should be specific to the situation you're in, as opposed to being this like weird picture that gets imposed.

Speaker 3: 1:27:54

I have never been so angry that we haven't let Castleton talk, because I desperately want to be talking about Sergeant Geller's story about his dad right now. I want so much to bring that into this conversation because I think that that's such a perfect example of not just the ways that we have insisted that manhood look a specific way and that that is to the detriment of anyone who isn't men, but also that it cuts men off from so much of themselves that we say isn't manly enough or isn't tough enough or isn't strong enough, and those are things. It's, you know, like the much less, not less, relevant. But it's um sort of equivalent to the way that when video game systems, like home video game systems, were introduced in the early 80s, it was adults are going to play these games like. This is going to be an entertainment center, this is going to be something that you put with your record player and VCR.

Speaker 3: 1:28:56

And then, when they decided that it should instead be kids toys, they had to make a decision if it was going to be a girl's toy or a boy's toy, and they went boy's toy. And so now not only are girls cut off, they are not being marketed to, they are not being thought of when the games are engineered. They aren't being considered in this thing, but also society's larger toxic idea of what boys will like and what boys want to play with is being reinforced to those same boys that you like violence, you like shooting things, you like naked ladies here are all these games that do that. You like shooting things, you like naked ladies? Here are all these games that do that and like. It changed the entire gaming system, entire world. All everybody who was ever gained has been involved in the fact that somebody decided in the early 1980s that boys were going to play super mario brothers and not girls, because obviously that's not a, that's not a girl thing girls don't like plumbers.

Speaker 3: 1:29:53

I guess girls would never step on mushrooms, I suppose yeah, I mean you're.

Speaker 2: 1:30:00

I think some of it's interesting how these things work together, because I think, like the technology made it possible to do things that you couldn't have done at first, or whatever. But, as you just said that, I was like, yeah, what were my favorite games when this started? Because I was like, truly like an atari 2600, like like I've been in this thing and and it was less gendered, like there was nothing inherently gendered about, and I'm gonna just pick a weird one, whatever, like pong, yeah but, it was like Like we're playing this thing, even asteroids.

Speaker 2: 1:30:35

There was some violence to that in the shooting or whatever, but it didn't feel like what you're describing. It's not necessarily that there was a clear straight line from asteroids to GTA of trying to make a movie, but you know, what I'm saying. You know what I mean. Like yeah, I hadn't thought about that piece specifically, but as you're saying, I'm going, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:30:59

Yeah, wait, why the fuck did we do that like that? And the weirdest part to me is that every once in a while they will come out with a game that now is oh. Also, before I move on too far, I need to mention Mark Chambers being a computer programmer and a hardcore nerd. We had an Intellivision when we were very little.

Speaker 2: 1:31:19

Yeah, that was weird.

Speaker 3: 1:31:22

I don't remember where that falls, only that it was possibly pre-Atari. It was fucking for real.

Speaker 2: 1:31:28

It was terrible they were close to each other and, yeah, it was sports and it was yeah, but no, yeah, it was sports and it was yeah, but no, that was yeah. I remember my buddy had in television that was what. Yeah, that was, oh, yeah, uh-huh, yeah, interesting and our favorite.

Speaker 3: 1:31:37

One of my favorite games to play was, uh, the little worm, one which they introduced again later on old school cell phones, where it's like just don't run into yourself, just make a big ass worm. And um, so yeah, they used to be very non-gendered and every once in a while now they will come out with a game that is equally genderless. It doesn't matter one way or the other. Um, portal from a few years ago was fucking huge. I love portal. Portal is great and amazing. And also, um, when you play in two player, uh led to the line where the boyfriend said, okay, well, so you move that there and move this there and move that there. Okay, yeah, um, get into the bottomless pit. And I was like, did you just tell me to jump into the bottom? He was like, yeah, don't worry, it'll work, it'll be fine, it'll be good, don't sweat, I'll shoot you out.

Speaker 4: 1:32:30

Yeah, I'll shoot you out.

Speaker 3: 1:32:32

You'll be fine. But yeah, so now, when those are like huge sellers, when everybody loves them, when they're critically acclaimed because it's such a smart game, people are like oh, so it's not just 13-year-old boys that are playing video games. We're so bad at saying that this is what this is and then never learning from that that things can change or be different.

Speaker 2: 1:32:54

Well, it, it. It comes up in a couple of different ways. I love that. One thing that drove me crazy when I was very much you know, I'm going to be in Hollywood and I'm going to do the thing is, people would say something this is very broad, but something along the lines of oh well, black films don't sell internationally. You're like okay, all right, um, but how about and I'm making it up again in real time but like, how about this denzel movie like it? Well, no, that's denzel, so that. So I'm like oh so, once you make enough money, you're no black, but black movies don't make that.

Speaker 2: 1:33:38

I was like are you seeing how this will never get out of the circle if we keep this up. And I think that's stunning and I'll toss in. And this has been driving me particularly crazy because I have intentionally paid attention to the WNBA and intentionally paid attention to women's basketball player worth anyone's attention and all others should bow. I'm like must you bring that disgusting paradigm over here? She's not doing that. As a matter of fact. I've watched her in interviews and I'm like I don't know if this is just growing up in her generation and Z or if somebody's educating her in real time. But every time they try to say, hey, you great white savior, she's like nope, hey, I'm going to do two minutes on all the black women basketball players. I've watched and she does it very slick.

Speaker 2: 1:34:51

It's not like she doesn't, but I've watched her and I'm like she is like you will not do this to me. I don't want it, I won't be a part of it, but I'm watching guys do it and I'm like this is fucking fascinating. It's not. Oh, my eyes are open to women's basketball. It's not. Oh, my eyes are open to women's basketball. It's not. Women still suck, obviously, but somehow this specially fairy dust, uh, enhanced one woman is all there is to say about women's, and it's it is blowing my mind, it is blowing my mind, I it is blowing my mind. I'm like you can keep doing that. So now you still don't have to respect women's sports or women's athletes, you just have to say, oh yeah, well, Caitlin Clark, you know, she's the Denzel movie. Yes.

Speaker 3: 1:35:43

Yeah, there's the exception that proves the rule Right. Every few years they also have the same thing where it's like like, oh, can a woman-led comedy break the box office or something? I'm like fucking bridesmaids came out 14 years ago. What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, no, we've seen that and, by the way, nine to five came out when I was a fucking child. You've had this shit, you've done this shit.

Speaker 3: 1:36:05

Um, I would like to make sure, uh, everything that we're saying right now about patriarchy and men should also be applied to a lot of white people and white supremacy, because we do the same fucking shit.

Speaker 3: 1:36:16

We don't have anything to fall back on, we don't have any of our own sort of inherent. This is what we do and this is how we do it. So we say that we're better than other people, and then that is what we're supposed to feel good about. So I want to make sure that I include that, because there is so much of an ego piece with this and apparently this is the episode where I bash on egos um, where people all of a sudden will realize that they didn't know about an entire area of something that they thought that they were an expert on, uh, one that I think I've mentioned on the show before and I just want to like clearly and completely own up to is that, uh, ruffin and her sister Lacey Lamar wrote a book called you Won't Believe what Happened to Lacey, and it was about Lacey running into racist white people in their hometown of Omaha, nebraska. I think they're from Omaha.

Speaker 2: 1:37:08

Yes, I'll need to double check. I gotta check that out.

Speaker 4: 1:37:10

Oh my God.

Speaker 3: 1:37:11

It is so fucking funny and so heartbreaking and so like. Everything that Amber Ruffin does is amazing. I love her. Her sister is also great. They have a podcast. I love everything about them. One of the things that Lacey specifically says in there is that she doesn't just get fired from jobs because people are racist. It is because people are racist. And then she goes to HR and she's like hey, this person was racist. And then, because most of the people that work there are white, they're like oh, she didn't mean to be racist. I've never heard her say anything racist. I don't think. And then Lacey is identified as the problem.

Speaker 2: 1:37:46

As a troublemaker.

Speaker 3: 1:37:46

That's right she is the troublemaker. She is difficult to work with because she won't put up with other people being racist assholes. I was at least 39, probably 40 years old when I read that and I was like, oh fuck, that's how racism works.

Speaker 3: 1:38:04

Like I, I wanted to think of myself as an ally and a not racist, and that I was trying to, like, fight the good fight or whatever and, by the way, the only fucking reason that I know about amber ruffin is because she was on seth myers, which is a tv show that a white guy hosts. It was easily accessible for me. And then he put her in my face and I was like, oh my god, I love her. And then, because I loved her, I was like, oh my god, did you know about this horrible shit that happens to black people, right? So, yeah, I, I get. I get it like there was.

Speaker 4: 1:38:35

He appropriately amplified her voice he appropriately amplified her.

Speaker 3: 1:38:40

I need to own up to the fact that I was not seeking out black voices to listen to, that I was not trying to find black women to listen to, and that that was a blind spot for me. I I needed to do that. All these guys that are like, oh hey, have you heard about? Uh, caitlin clark she's really fucking good. Number one angel reese also very good.

Speaker 3: 1:38:59

I don't follow sports, I know that what the fuck so like? Just this is part of the evolving. This is part of letting go of things that you've got wrong and figuring out how to do things better in the future, and not holding on to something because it was right. At some point. I'm going to go ahead and shout out we were promised jet packs again because I fucking love them and they're so Scottish and they haven't put it on an album recently and I really need them to. One of their songs is about making plans that you can't keep, that you've outgrown Like knowing full well as you're doing it. This is not going to last forever. I am not going to be able to do this thing forever. This is the plan for now, and it is not going to be what I'm doing 10 years from now and I think that that's really hard, but it's also part of personal growth to do that shit.

Speaker 2: 1:39:52

You know it's interesting, god, so much. We've hit on here and I agree Like I kind of I do want it's very soon to hit play if we can, because I do think we'll bump into this stuff and this is a great. This really is a great episode, as much as we're having a great conversation. But I'll say too, what you just described to me is at the core of us getting to total humanity, which is at least as much of my focus being on how am I contributing to limiting freedom as how is my freedom being limited? We tend to be great experts, oh great experts, and all the way is the world's fucking with me, but horrible at recognizing how I'm participating in other people being fucked with, like and, and, and, the, the, the.

Speaker 2: 1:40:48

You know that when we look at our own privilege, when we look at that, like what you just said about seeking voices, I realized for years I said, oh, it's so great the WNBA. I'd watch maybe five, six, maybe up to 10 games in a season total, maybe I'd watch the finals. But I felt like, oh, I'm supporting, and I was like, all right, orlando, that's not real support. You know what it looks like when you're into a fucking sport. You know what you can talk about, about the NFL, right, and that's not what this looks like and I intentionally coached those.

Speaker 2: 1:41:24

I started playing fantasy women's basketball WNBA. Now I can tell you who's coming, who's going, whose ankles fucked up, who I mean. I can tell you shit that you would because. But you have to make decisions, like you're saying, to seek that out, like I was like what's going to make me pay real attention? And I was like that will make me pay real attention, finding that podcast, amplifying that voice, all those things that when it's not serving you, that's total football. That's being Jamie saying play through me, play through me, like when you know we're going to and I'll mention this when we sign off but we are starting and we'll figure out all the details later, but we are starting more afraid of the bear that is happening.

Speaker 2: 1:42:16

We're going to do a live on 31st on the Cypher and it's going to be a podcast and I don't even know 25 things. I should already know before I say that out loud publicly. But I want to do it because that to me, is Jason Mercer, who will be one of the hosts, and me saying play through us. We're not, we're not the ones to score the goal here, but we think we could be pretty good at facilitating what needs to go on here. Play through us. And I just want as many people as hear this and can find it in their heart to say play through me. If you're trans and I'm cis and people are giving you shit, I go and I put I'm like Pee Wee Reese putting his arm. Not everybody knows this one, so I should slow down.

Speaker 2: 1:43:07

Brooklyn Dodgers, jackie Robinson, broke the color line in Major League Baseball. Pee Wee Reese came to understand just how bad it had been for Jackie Robinson and he went and he put his arm around him on the field. Like sounds like. Well, that's his teammate. He should Like. That was risky on his part, but he did it and you have to be Pee Wee Reese putting your arm around Jackie Robinson, otherwise what the fuck are we doing? Be that person in your world, in your space, that people are playing through. And I think, if each of us says we'll do that, the people who refuse to do that, the people who are,