Musician David King

Rodney Veal interviews David King, a musician and member of the jazz trio The Bad Plus, about his early musical influences, his love for visual art, and the significance of humanity in art.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Rodney, Ad, Dave King, Promo

Rodney  00:00

Hello everyone. I'm Rodney veal. I'm the host of Rodney veal is inspired by, I'm in our cet studios. I love saying the word location we're in, but I'm having, I'm gonna have a, hopefully a really cool, great conversation with a cool, great guy that I've just discovered via digitally, but in his in his music and the bands that he's been with, but I but he's also an artist, a musician and a composer and a big thinker and a reimaginer of art and art making and collaboration, because that seems to be his jam, on top of improv. Give it up for Dave King,

Dave King  00:38

Hello, how are you doing? Thanks for having me totally, totally,

Rodney  00:41

totally, my pleasure. I mean, this podcast is kind of like talking to folks who about their inspiration. And I feel like sometimes I'm like, I'm doing a this is your life, very big, but because I'm kind of curious, because no one ever just says I'm going to be a reimaginer of nivana's Teen Spirit and write a spring Stravinsky through a jazz lens and a musician's lens. I mean, that's bold. And so that boldness was that the out of the womb, would you say you were absolutely going to be a musician or an artist, or what was your first motivation for creativity?

Dave King  01:19

Well, that's a great question, and it's really nice to get to talk about these things because, and in fact, even just the fact that you have this art podcast, I should tell you, I was trying. I've been trying. I had a radio show for a few years that I did profiles on jazz musicians and tried to make it kind of entertaining and doing whatever. And I've talked to myself, it's really nice when you can have these discussions with that from from the standpoint of how things begin and where people their trajectory, of how they start, whatever failures they've had, or successes that create their sort of path, and I've thought about the possibilities of that myself. So I hope you don't mind. I'm just going to take all of your ideas and make my own podcast first and foremost. So you heard it here right now.

Rodney  02:02

Run with it. I started dancing on my riff, baby riff, because I'm into the, I

Dave King  02:09

mean, yeah, no. I just love getting to be able to talk about the process and so thanks for that opportunity. Absolutely, I think that, just like anyone you know the Yeah, I started thinking about music really young. I was a, you know, four or five years old as there was a piano in the house. But I didn't come from a family of of like artists that were saying, like, you know, this is possible. It was more like, oh, music education is good. You know, grew up in the 70s, and it's like this idea that people becoming more and more aware of how music could affect the way anybody thinks about school or anything. It's like this important part of your brain and opening yourself up creatively. And that's how it began with me. But I kind of it kind of hit me early, my love of it, my love of either being able to just sit at a piano and and play a theme to a movie, or figure something like that out. I think that's what my first moment of thinking I could, I could control this thing, you know, like I, I don't have to. I can play the closest encounters, you know. And I could go down and do that whenever I wanted it out when I wasn't a school. I could just go down there and do that. That made me have a sense that I could be a part of at least making something when I wanted it to happen. You know what I mean, the immediacy of like, saying, like, oh, I want to hear that again. I'll just play it. And I think that, you know, I was into all the normal things too, that anyone I played sports, I was, you know, like I thought, you know, I was, I was kind of a quiet, but kind of like internal, you know, trying to be funny to myself. I had all these dreams of like, oh, maybe I'll be comedic, or I'll be, you know, where. But it was always, it always came back to that idea of creative thinking, even in even in athletics. It was like, how I could think creatively, not be a part of the normal sort of herd that goes in that world. And I That's why I've even to this day, like I I love if I love it if I see like an eccentric athlete, somebody that's not fitting in. And it makes me think like they're already trying to think differently than than the herd mentality. And so I think that's how I began my it started to zero in more on music. I started playing the drums in school band in 10th in when I was 10 years old, and you can't really play piano in the school band. So it was like, You got to pick an instrument if you want to be in band, and to pick one. I was like, Well, Dr, pretty cool drums. Yeah, yeah. Hit these things. Let's just do, let's try this. And it really stuck. And I think it just I ever since I really just use the piano as a compositional tool. I can play piano, but not on a level where I can't sit there and blow bebop solos and things like that, but I can definitely use it as my writing tool, and that's how I kept my piano education going throughout my the rise of like drumming and in my life, but also composing, which has always been there for me. So I've never been just like. I've never thought about myself as just a drummer. I've always thought about myself as a musician, that I use this instrument, I use the piano to write, and that's how I communicate these ideas. And so that's that's that I've always just thought of it all as one thing. It's a creativity is sort of one thing, not just

Rodney  05:17

in the sense that you were like saying yourself, like narrowing your own plane, right? Because as artists, we can do that. We know sometimes we go, I'm only this, but I'm like, I'm all in the like, well, it's, it's more than just the one thing. It is, and, and, and I love that voyage of discovery. And I don't think people really understand when they people encounter you. Just as a drummer, I keep thinking, no, no, no, there's more. Yeah. I mean, the fact that you designed the did you design all the album cover, most of them, yeah, Ivy, you've got a great visual sense and a great sensibility about composition of art and creativity. So I'm like, Oh, this guy's all in, and you just seem to enjoy it, like there's a joy to it. So when you were in school and you're playing the drums, how do people respond to the fact that you're in that? In that lane? Because a lot of times, I don't know, Ohio, we're in the you're from the Midwest? Yeah, I'm from Minneapolis. You know, well, the Minneapolis sound, I mean, I think people would assume that anyone playing an instrument is like, Okay, you're pretty cool, yeah?

Dave King  06:17

Well, that's a great question. Of like, of course, a community and what people view as possible. And I'd say that most certainly, anywhere in in the world, you run up against obstacle thinking, as far as what is the road there, it can be a very lonely feeling to be like there isn't a system. Maybe if you live in New York or you have some sort of system that you had a relative, that had a, had a, you know, a career in something, and then they, they take you on your wing, going, Oh, this is possible. You kind of have to create the the, I'm sure you know this, if you obviously do that, you have to sort of create the opportunity for yourself, almost like in the lane of, like, don't stop, you know. So no matter what, if I just keep the love there. And I just talked about this today at a at a high school, I was just like, Well, how do you answer this question? Of like, how do you get there? It's almost like, well, you you, you recognize that love is a huge component. And we think about love, we think about people, we think about whatever, but, but why you love? What You Love is also real love, and that that's a hugely powerful emotion, as we know and when we fall in love with something and some process that combination of loving it and not, not ever giving up on it, then it becomes like, well, that is, except is it is itself a success. You never gave up on the love you had for the thing. And therefore, for me, that begat, this, begat, that begat this, it was like, Oh, I failed. It these types of things along the way. I didn't get, I didn't get, you know, like that didn't succeed right away. That didn't whatever, but it just kept going and using whatever those experiences were. So I think back then in Minnesota, and just being a part of a sort of, just like, oh, you mentioned it. There's a, there's a music community. So there's, no, you're not just in the middle of nowhere, right? There's an art community there that, you know, where I was able to go to, you know, take the bus and goes to the Walker Art Center and hear some avant garde musicians and see paintings. But I had to do it myself. There wasn't like, a team of

Rodney  08:22

people. There wasn't like, like, let's get it all, everybody on a school bus and we're gonna

Dave King  08:25

go crew of it was a few of us, yeah, and oddly, a few of those people that I grew up with became, there's a few of them became, along with the basis of the bad plus, we grew up together, we became internationally recognized jazz musicians and creative musicians, including the pianist Craig Taborn, who we grew up with from Minneapolis, and we stuck with it. We had to earn that thing of like, no one is no one is feeding us this stuff. We have to find it. We got to go to the library and we got to listen to these albums. Yeah, you know what I mean? Oh, no, absolutely. No,

Rodney  09:01

not. Back in the day, our streaming was you had to show up. You had to literally show up and and so, I mean, what I love about that? And then when you say, like I said, I did a little research, and that was it seemed to be that driving force, like the library, the PBS. I mean, the fact that you mentioned, you know, the tattoo, PVA, he has a PBS tattoo. And I thought, all right, you're, you're in you're in the family, you're in the mix to the people. We're we're the we're the ones trying to think differently. I'm thinking about differently about content. And so the fact that you were thinking like this, and the fact that you were you could take the bus to the walker center, I am incredibly jealous. It is that is one incredible art museum. Yeah, that's a space. And folks, if you ever get to you need to go. You really need to experience the building, but then their exhibitions are stellar. I mean, two trips there, I went on vacation, but I always my vacation is always like, and we're gonna stop. The museum, right? Like, I cannot. You don't say like, you can't I don't understand. People who go to a place you never went to the museum in that city, go to the museum. You have to

Dave King  10:09

see the museums Absolutely. Like, what's a special place, for sure, for everything, for dance, for music, for

Rodney  10:15

absolutely, and Laura for everything. And they, they were really invested in that. And so you mentioned that your classmates who ended up forming the black bad plus, which is, I mean that in and of itself, most people would say, I'm going to start a rock band, yeah, or I'm going to be a part of the next pop sensation. They're never like, let's be very real. I'm going into jazz. Not common at all. And what was the response when you guys kind of form, how did you form the idea that that was a path for all of you could you could have chosen another vehicle. You could have chosen another genre. Of, sure,

Dave King  10:51

absolutely, I think it's the thing where you come you know you're growing up and like we're all funneled through these systems of, okay, you hear music on TV, maybe, or you hear it on. I grew up in the 70s. You hear radio, whatever radio it was, whether it was R and B, whether it was classic rock, whatever it was, what classical music. There's music there if you want to check it out. So then it's just like, okay, maybe we could put together a garage band or something, right? 12 years old, you're 13 years old. I want to start playing. It's the dream kind of begins there, and then you're just like, how do you do this? Right? So you nobody can really, there aren't a series of teachers that are like, well, this is how you play a Led Zeppelin tune. This is how you whatever. And then for a lot of us, the younger musicians that I started to gravitate like in school or wherever, it was more like what all sudden somebody was hip to something that was even more mysterious. So then all sudden you're like, What is this pro rock thing all about? And then, like, you know, Genesis, or something like, you could tell there's a musicianship that's happening that's not just the standard rock thing, right? And then all sudden somebody's like, have you heard, you know, Miles Davis blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you go, whoa. And then it starts to go, and then your interest becomes like, I'm less satisfied right now with maybe the mainstream version of what music is. And I'm starting to hear that there's this world of this extremely sophisticated and soulful and everything that kind of makes you want to connect to something, the humanity, your humanity. Yeah, so your brain and your humanity are being ignited, and then that becomes like, this is mysterious. What is this? I think that a few of us, like I mentioned Reed and Craig and his in the first penis, the bad plus Ethan Iverson, who grew up near Minneapolis, we, we all gravitated towards what was next. It was like somebody heard this record by the art ensemble of Chicago or something, right, right? Like, wait a minute, wow. What is that? It was just an openness and a hunger for things that were not mainstream. So it can kind of give you that high, right? Of the like, punk rock maybe gave people, yeah, talking about the Pixies earlier, yeah, that little high of, like, sure. Like, I'm into the Pixies. You ever heard of that, you know, right? Like, it's like, oh, pixies were an indie band that not a lot of people knew of in 1988 you know. And all sudden it starts to go, and then you're like, I was an OG pixies fan or something. You have that badge. Well, for us, jazz became that, yeah, Eric Dolphy became that, okay, son ra became that. Paul motion became that, Keith Jarrett, you know, and then you make your way back, like what we make your way further back. Well, what's bebop all

Rodney  13:36

about? Right? Because, the, because what, what excited you about them, what excited them to become who they are? Yeah? So it just, it's almost like, it almost, almost becomes, like, the scrolling, yes, you know you like, let me scroll down into the into like, this is where the through line goes, right versus, and it's, I think it's much more satisfying when it's the voyage discovery of the New Yeah? Like, I'm I like, I am so intrigued. Like, my favorite artist is Mark Bradford. I just incredible, yes, but then he has it through line to Charles White, yeah. And then I'm like, you know, well, what inspires Charles White? And you just, I just keep going down the rabbit hole. And then it's, you know, five hours later, and I'm like, I've gotten the work done, because I'm staring at great art Absolutely. And now I think I feel like you guys doing that, and this is pre digital, which means you really had to, you literally had to go buy the album or get it from the library, get it from

Dave King  14:32

library. Did that a lot when you didn't have any money, and they just got to find it yourself. And then that's kind of what it was. It was just like, Okay, well, we had to make this world for ourselves. I wasn't in a there was no jazz program in high school that was doing anything progressive. So already, by the time it was 1516 it was like, we're not going to play. We're not. It's not. It's not like a thinking that you're better than anything. But your consciousness has expanded beyond what, what the normal consciousness was a. Allowing in those confines. And so it was more like, had we had to find it and to fall in love with it? Do it? Search it out, like you said, and then zero in. For me, it was zeroing in on what the errors were that were really hitting me. I'm like, okay, bebop, swing era jazz. I had to check it out, because I had to check out who got Felonious Monk. Like thinking that far outside the the norm. Okay, so then, what was the trigger point? Yeah, and then, but then, but then, then I would start to realize, well, you know, really starting in around the late 50s and forward through the through the 70s, even the Neo movement, Neo jazz move into the 80s with Wynton Marcel and Branford Marcellus, which I love, both of them, and all of those schools, plus the 80s avant garde. But really the late 50s into the 60s, I was zeroing in on Ornette Coleman. I was zeroing in on on flonius Monk. I was zeroing in on Bill Evans. I was zeroing in on miles and all these bands that were like, This is touching me beyond this sort of like academic nature of some of the jazz or large ensemble music, like swinging jazz, that sense

Rodney  16:06

of that internal connection correct to the sound, the internal connection to the thoughts behind the making of the sound, and the more

Dave King  16:14

interactive it became. Like the in the 60s, the bands were interacting more less like there was a language to support, like, you have Charlie Parker with you, got Max Roach, these incredible bands, but they're, they're, they're more organisms of like, they're, for me, they were back there, like, dealing on the highest level, but propagating some sort of leader centric idea, like Charlie Parker is the voice. And, of course, there are all these other voices, and they're geniuses. But once you hit the Coltrane quartet, era the miles quintet, second grade quintet, era of the 60s, you're hearing, you're hearing a collective effort. To me, you're hearing more that band sound, where people are getting in the mix with each other. They're less of this, like overt support system, you have, you have, you know, would it? Would John Coltrane have been that level of torrential spirit genius, without that Elvin Jones component, on drums, without that Jimmy Garrison component? Of course, all the great bebop masters had their their engines firing underneath the sort of leader situation. But for me, it was became apparent, like the more collaborative, almost the more in the mix, all the instruments were, the more excited I got. It felt like there was a visceral component. And it started to ignite. Like, this is not this, to me, is not just like, it's, you play the head you back up the soloist. Trade a little bit, play the head out. This was more like, well, what? You can't say that about Coltrane living. No, no, you can't. You can't say that about sonship. It's like, Whoa. That's where's that going,

Rodney  17:57

Yeah, because and it would, yeah. It's like taking

Dave King  18:01

you on a journey that's different. And so that's when I started identifying that's, that's a galactic family. I'd like to at least humbly attempt to have my own kind of, my own voice within, in my own generation, instead of feeling like, well, we're never going to do that, because that's been done on the highest level, right? But we can know that language and learn from it. But isn't

Rodney  18:24

that just in many ways, it's like, because I think about it in these terms, because I think about as a dancer, I can only evolve as a movement maker beyond those that I, like you, get excited about. And it was only way I could do that was videotape. It was like I could see the great masters, like, and, you know, and then I got a chance, an opportunity, to dance some of their works. And so I got to understand the difference between your playing with an account, like you're you're dancing with the music to dancing within and embodying exactly, was a completely different level of artistry, exactly so, but recognizing that there's other things factors, because our society and our world has evolved, yes, that informs that. So the you know, you know where they didn't have that system of libraries, where there's all this information you can get access to, we're products of thank you to us, this American society that believes in library systems, because that's where we could get the information to inform those people who didn't necessarily need to have their hand. You didn't. You didn't. You weren't holding like, no one held your hand. No, you guys did well. You were like, what was I'm doing? Listen to you had to figure it out. Figure it out. Same with the dance. It's just like, What is this and what is this like? And you search it out. And so I think there's such parallel tracks to that when you decide to become a creator, that you have to decide, are you just imitating or are you just deciding, I'm going to do it my way, not in the sense of an arrogance, it's just my way, in the sense of it's going to evolve

Dave King  19:58

exactly you're you? You're humbly standing on the shoulders, and you're and you're very humbly learning the text absolutely

Rodney  20:04

and then, and then you just, it just flows out of you. Was it? Is one? This is a kind of a question. You're at a place now with art and sound making. Was it? Is it easier now, but of a flow, I always a little of the flow now than it was when you first, when you guys first started. With the bad plus

Dave King  20:30

is, well, I suppose, as you mean, as keeping the engine going.

Rodney  20:33

Well, how that? Well, you know when you when you first start, it's like the engines kind of stop, start, stop, start, trial and error, like you said, failure. Talk to me that what that was like in those early, early days, before it ever got to the place where people said, Hey, these guys are onto something.

Dave King  20:51

Well, that that sort of like, let's say pre, pre, let's say a little bit before the mature work starts to begin. Right. Right. Right. Right. Artists, you know, some people, of course, are, they have a voice really young. And I can't believe that myself. I

Rodney  21:05

am shocked by that. But sometimes I'm like, Hey, some of my students were like that

Dave King  21:09

scary. And of course, some of the great jazz heroes were like that. Tony Williams was like that, you know, where he's 19, playing with Miles Davis with a totally unique voice. And so you're just sort of like, well, okay, that's not me. But what I am is I was able to I think emulation is important at to a certain point where you're if you're learning how to do something, the heroes that you're connecting to, you know that they connected to something and they imitated it. At the beginning they did. There's no way they weren't checking out the music and going well, how do you do that? And you sound like, well, that's how you do it. You sound like this person. You sound like Max Roach. You sound like whatever. And then, and then, hopefully, from there, the journey, your individualism starts to appear, through your love, through your dedication to the craft, through your whatever is, you start to feel realize, of course, we're all one of one. We're all individuals, no matter what our life experience, no matter what suffering you've had, everyone has had suffering. Everyone has had highs and lows within their human trajectory. How do we translate that into a personal touch, a personal sound, a personal whatever. And that that became something for me, as I had to make a conscious break from knowing that I had these influences. I loved Paul motion and Jack de Jeanette, and I loved Elvin Jones, and I loved, you know, Jeff Watts and Joey Baron and all these great drummers from different generations before me, but I knew that a part of me, my love of it, my emulation of it, I had to break free without I don't believe in this. You've got to destroy your heroes to find yourself. I believe it's got to be more subtle than that. Oh, pushing away nuance, more nuance, far more nuance there, because you'll never destroy your heroes. Your heroes are your heroes for life I

Rodney  22:59

can't touch, I could never touch a Balanchine ballet to save my life as a choreographer. Nope,

Dave King  23:03

yeah. You got to be able to say, You know what? That's that. And I'm this and, and I have a validity of my perspective. I've done the work, especially when you've done the work of knowing the the these great masters and what they did, what they've been through, what everything, being able to humble yourself and say, in order to hang I gotta, I gotta know this text. I have to know this music, and I have to be in love with this music, this the falling in love with it. Something complex is hard. It can be hard. It can test your love.

Rodney  23:33

It's challenge. Is a challenge, like Stravinsky, is a challenge. It is a challenge. It was like tremendous challenge. It is a dance and interpret it. I It challenged my yes audio sensibilities. About like, oh, wait, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know, just created worlds for me. Once I stopped the resistance, I was like, why am I resisting this? Because it's speaking to something that you weren't ready to speak to, right? And it's pushing you over the edge. And I'm like, I'm okay, and then I'm like, just fall right. And then I'm like, yeah, that felt good, but it would taught me a lot to do about being a performer. I think it was a better performer than I was. Well, you learned how to land somehow. Yeah, better performer than a technician. I mean, I would, I would say that, and I and I,

Dave King  24:18

but the world needs better performers than technicians. Some,

Rodney  24:20

yeah, that's how I like this. I played it. I had a pretty good run. And so I so in this context of, like, now you there's obviously, like, how much of the avant garde world that you, you discovered at the bad plus, could reside in, in the Midwest, in Minneapolis. Do you know I'm saying, like, what was it? Because you, you went to, when did you guys make the leaps and saying, You know what? We know we got to take this on the road. Yeah, that's, that's the part that we're like. That's

Dave King  24:49

years later. That's the trajectory of that particular band was throughout our entire 20s. We, you know, those guys lived in New York. I lived in Los Angeles for a bit. We're finding our voices, and that's what I was kind of. Uh, alluding to is there's a period of finding, you're you're sort of playing the gigs, doing whatever sessions you can, finding how to do this thing. How do you, how do you play music for a living, and you're not just trying to be a rock star or something. We didn't have interest in that. We had interest in, in creative music, and music that was would be considered a part of the Art Spectrum, via jazz, via new music, classic music, all these other things, but without a conservatory background, without a without a cushion of like, oh, my, my path is to is to be the principal percussionist blah blah, or my path is to be a side person in jazz, and I hope to play with Carmen McRae someday. I have to. It's more like, how do I find myself within this thing. Because I think we were naturally, the three of us were naturally kind of iconoclastic thinking, like, not infinitely hireable, mainstream versions, you know, right, right? More like, probably the wrong person for several situations. And it's good to know that early on. So then it's more like, Okay, well, how do I become, how do I make my own job, you know,

Rodney  26:02

because you're in this now, this lane, right? Like you're saying, it's not like, Oh man, I can't wait to get that. That pushing me to the edge. Hop on guard. You gotta create musicians, this trio, you know, you're really speaking to asking the question of an audience to be as daring as you guys are, yeah, and I think that there was, but there's a place for it. Yeah, I think that's what I that's even the place for it? Yeah, there absolutely is. And I think you've proven that, that there's an audience for it,

Dave King  26:33

at least, at least at this point, it's all about maintaining that there's a place for it, you know, to a certain point, if you're wondering where it is now, if it's easier or if it's right,

Rodney  26:41

well,

Dave King  26:42

the the making of things as is constantly expanding. You're always trying to grow and try to find new voices, but also the, as you know, from the arts and the world of the artists as competitive as any professional sport, if not more, yeah, and because it's subjective, it's like, it's not like, we can say, I draw the best, so I'm the best that has nothing to do with it. At

Rodney  27:02

the end of the day, means nothing on a planet of 7 billion plus people like really nothing to say that we have never seen until someone points it out or points a spotlight, spotlight towards you realize, there you go.

Dave King  27:15

Or you're might be a you might be a technically great painter. You have nothing to paint. You have no original idea. You have no nothing, so there, there's, that's when you start to realize, well, the the maintaining of a position of of a unique perspective, can be very difficult. And there, you know, it's, it's feast or famine. Sometimes it's like, oh, you know, people are remembering, oh, this, this man was really, they've made some of these things. But then there's this period where I kind of lost touch with it. We got to get those other people going again, but you got to make things without thinking about pleasing. Wow. Yeah. So there's this boss that you live in where you're you want to stay pure to your intent, but you also got to stay in there and keep building the audience. Yeah, and you want to reach people

Rodney  27:57

absolutely and but it's but also reaching people in your terms, in the sense of, it's not about, I need instant gratification. Oh, lots of money, which I think

Dave King  28:07

that's never gonna happen. Never gonna

Rodney  28:10

happen. Not a long time. Oh, I, I my favorite line all my students like because I taught at a performing arts high school. I said, not everybody can be Beyonce. So let's let that go. Let us get in here and learn how the how to operate within the rehearsal space. I'm like, Guys, it doesn't matter you could hurt yourself literally right before the curtain goes up and you're replaced Exactly. So you should enjoy this part of the process, because this is where it is. Yeah, this is the sweet spot. It is. Do you like, do you like the I mean, I love rehearsal. So do you, I mean, well, how are connecting? Or,

Dave King  28:47

yeah, well, rehearsal can be, can be deep when you, especially if you're presenting some of your music to a group, especially a collective like we have, where people take your take everyone's composition seriously in the band. So everyone composes separately. We almost have this rule. It's a democracy, but the composer has the right of way.

Rodney  29:04

Oh, that the right first right of refusal, yeah. So, like, so

Dave King  29:07

like, you're open to interpretation and at the same time you like, but this is a key ingredient I need you to do, okay, and then that person's got to do it, you know what I mean? And it's like, of course, okay, I can dig it. Let's do it. Okay? So we figure out a way to share the music while also being able to have all these different composerly visions, and at that point, that's kind of gives you all those weapons. It's almost like Fleetwood Mac had three lead singers, right, right, not one. So they split up the lead vocal duties between three of the five members. Now you got all this repertoire that has a different voice, and it expands the repertoire hugely, absolutely. So we are that way. We were that way as all three members, and including now that it's a quartet, which I was going to do, all four, right? And not together. We write separately. We're we're composers. We're not jamming it out together, and then when we get together, we beat it. Into shape together and make an arrangement together that everyone is satisfied with. But if, at the end of the day, if, if, if I'm not feeling a certain type of thing, but the composer is like, I just really need the center of this part on the drums to say this, then I you've got to kind of step out of the way and say, you know, the composer has a vision for this, and I might, I might feel like I'm not getting to bring enough of me to it, but at the end of the day, it's a band. It's a band. It's not a me species.

Rodney  30:30

It is, and that's, and that's the truest sense of bands being collaborative, correct?

Dave King  30:35

And that's rare in jazz, you know? Wow, yeah, that's why it had the thing. It's rare. It's very rare to have bands in jazz. Yes, there's a very leader centric construct. It doesn't mean that, like I mentioned Elvin Jones and Jimmy garrison and McCoy Towner before the Coltrane, the classic court Coltrane quartet. But you're hearing the words John Coltrane quartet, so you're immediately seeing there's a leader. But we but anyone who knows that music knows there is no John Coltrane quartet without those other three people, they're not Subbable. And so that is a band. What we are a part of is the tradition that came more from rock, which is, there's a bad name, and so all sudden, the identity is, wait a minute, it's a bad name. It's not the Dave King trio, it's not the reed Anderson trio, it's not the Ethan Iverson trio. It's the bad plus, and it's those three guys, and it's never anybody else, until it evolved. Ethan moved on after 18 years.

Rodney  31:31

That's a long, that is a long, don't? People think people understand it's that's

Dave King  31:35

a long time, that's a long time, and a lot of music, and a lot of continents, and a lot of concerts, a lot of plays, a lot of experiences, you know, yeah, and then, Oren Evans, the great pianist from Philadelphia, joined us for a few years. Or he was an old friend, and he kind of took over the piano, because, like, stepping into a piano trio, realizing the piano does not lead the band. So that's amazing, like, that's true. So you have these composers, it's there's no leader. He stepped in for a few great albums, and then he kind of wanted to focus back on his tremendous solo career. And so it was just like, okay, we can pivot here during the pandemic. Do we end it, or do we change the whole thing? And founding members, me and Reed, the bassist, we were like, you know, we wrote the lion's share of the original music. And the concept of kind of re imagining certain things kind of came not to minimize anyone else's contribution, but at the end of the day, there were architects to the thing that had a larger role. And at that point, we realized it wouldn't be interesting if we just flipped the script and we brought in a saxophonist and a guitar player,

Rodney  32:35

yes, which, which definitely changed the sound, but didn't change what the intention was. You're so honorable, you know, like, like, it wasn't like, oh, yeah, I know.

Dave King  32:49

I language there.

Rodney  32:50

The language is there. And that was one of the, that's one of the things that I with this podcast I feel really, really strongly about, is demystifying to people that this the creative process and like, it's not a I think they imagine that it's like you said, it's leader centric. No, well, you're telling us something completely different, and that gives a context, and then listen to the music, and then listen to other people. I see what he's saying, or I'm like, because you're giving us the tools for the power of observation, yes, the power to absorb it the way it needs to be absorbed. So then it changes us yes to then go. I'm ready. I'm ready for that crazy whacked up like Heart of Glass, which I call this is the first word when I heard your band play hard glass that is whacked, but I love it. That was my phrase. My house by myself, with my cats. I'm like, that was whacked my cats. Yeah, Tony, it was pretty cool out. But that was a whole thing like that. And that's what I was like, reimagined. He reimagined this song that I don't that I can now say that is a cover, a reimagined cover. That's what I want from a cover now, now I'm going to be expecting cover like, don't give me note for note.

Dave King  34:11

Oh, that's nothing worse than that. I don't have never even understood

Rodney  34:15

what was the point. Like, please stop like, I need you to, especially when

Dave King  34:19

people learn about the history of jazz, and realize the American Standard songbook were the pop songs of the day. So if you think about the construct of standards in jazz, it's, they're reimagining musicals, or you're, you're reimagining the songs that people knew from the 40s and 50s and all these things from musicals and from and from, you know, pre rock, pop radio, or whatever. And so, you know, Surrey with a fringe on top might seem like whatever, but it was a song at the day that people knew David knew, and then jazz musicians were like, Let's expand the harmony. Let's, let's play solo. Not whatever. And so for us, it was like we're always had original music as mostly, but the way we thought to imagine, which was not new. Miles Davis played, for instance, time after time and all these other things. For us, though, it became sure John Colvin My Favorite Things. And then you had people from our generation looking at, you know, jazz musicians always like to look at the Beatles and all these things. We decided early on, if we were going to look at other music besides our originals, we felt like we wanted to try to go after music you wouldn't necessarily consider could be the backbone for some improvisation. Okay, so you're not, you're not at a jam session in jazz saying, you guys know, Heart of Glass. It's like, that's

Rodney  35:41

not gonna happen, not gonna happen. Or a fix too, or everybody turn it off, or Iron Man from Black Sabbath. I was like, I was like, Oh my God. I'm like, Yeah, you're exactly

Dave King  35:50

right. Rodney, so that's, that's the point is, it was like, it presented a challenge to look at the texts of that music and to see what we could do to personalize it, knowing that there was a strong thematic, melodic hook in there that we could torch if we wanted to. We could put we could put strong winds against it and to see if it could fall or see if it would hang in there.

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Rodney  37:05

and you're twisting your mind. But that's why I'm so intrigued by it's like, yeah, you're twisting it in your head, and it's coming through the body. And I know the mind is the most essential part of this, and memory and thoughts and ideas and that you have when there's a one of my favorite, my favorite, like absolute, I did a thesis on William Forsythe as a choreographer, and he said, these are just tools in your tool belt. You need to have as many tools in your tool belt as possible. And I was like, this is a universal. I was like, Oh, this is use all your tools Absolutely. Be open to it. Be open to it. Don't say I can't be I can't design the album cover. Yeah, I can't be a visual artist. And let me conceive of music for scores, because you scored short films. I mean, you have gone, I mean, you've done these things. And so the tools in the tool belt, in many ways, are the key so the unlimited possibilities. So you

Dave King  38:05

can say, Heart of Glass can be a jazz song. Yes, you can just allow, just allow to happen. Yeah. So now, what do we do now that we allowed it? And that was the question, and which

Rodney  38:15

kicked open a door yes to, I think, being that sort of influenced other people, taking on the mantle of imagination and and I, because one of the things that was really, really interesting, because we talked about it off the microphone or so out of the space, was these into these interactions, these experiences, like, how did you then have An experience with someone like Mark Morris, who is notoriously, I'm not gonna use the word difficult, because that would be that is just very, you know, that's for damning, and I don't want him to meet me in a dark alley, because he would hurt neither. But he's very exacting. I think that's a better phrase. I think he's very exacting, and I and and, but what he produces? Well, okay, I give you the grace to, I mean that talk about dancing within the music. So you have this, really, this palette of sound that's so fascinating from a choreographic standpoint. What was the piece that you were, the pieces that you worked with him on? I'll tell you. But

Dave King  39:20

I mean, knowing your dance background, I gleefully want to tell you these experiences, because they were so singular. Of course, one of the things that we we did was when we first worked with Mark Ethan, the pianist of the band, plus had a relationship with Mark as his accompanist on several pieces before we had formed the band. He had he had it. He had a pretty great relationship with Mark, as far as working with the company, either playing for rehearsals that turned into he's like a rehearsal pianist that turned into him being one of the, you know, companies musicians for certain pieces. And. That led to mark hearing when we formed the band, Mark became aware of us, and then the ascent of the band started. And Mark was kind of keenly aware, because he works with music, so as you know, so it's one of his things, right? So, so it's like, and live music is his thing, totally and so, um, so when we were presented with this idea. When Mark was first talked to us about, you know, perhaps collaborating on a project. He it was, of course, like incredible to just all of a sudden, you find yourself in the room with this, with this extremely sizable energy and nature, yeah, force of nature, true force of nature. And true visionary of us, he says true, singular visionary in a very rich world of visionaries. And there, there was, it was just sort of like you. It's almost like you probably know this too. When you're in the room with, with, with people that for, for how complex they can be and how whatever they are, you get a sense immediately of the energy of somebody that is in complete control of what they would like to do, like they if they have vulnerability, you don't quite see it. How about that? Yeah, that's a good way put it. We know that. They all do.

Rodney  41:15

We're not. We're not. I know they're human, because I know that. I know you don't have like, mechanical parts, yeah, but there's the human like, but that singularity of vision, knowing,

Dave King  41:23

of knowing, or the confidence in what they want, I'm in awe. Yeah, that's a powerful that's a intent, is extremely powerful, as we know. And when you've got the acumen, and you've got the life experience, and you've got it all dialed, which he does, and he obviously was a brilliant dancer and the highest level. And so you have the whole package is standing there in front of you, and he's talking, always very nice to us and very respectful of our process. But also, like you said, watching someone that is very, very, very exacting, extremely intense with the dancers in a, in a, in a, of course, in a very obviously, also loving way, but, but it's a family, and he is, he's there, like, there'd be a rehearsal happening. One of my stories I have for you is there'd be rehearsal, and then that there's the dancer that's sort of interpreting Mark's think for the rehearsal. I don't know what you call that person, but it's his right hand person, most like assistant director,

Rodney  42:22

like, it's like his right hand, yes, who knows the dance? But it's not really a repetitive because that's usually when the other artist is on the room. So it really is, because Mark is mark, and so he knows, yes, please, you show them the steps. Show

Dave King  42:37

them the step. So they're sitting there, and he's sitting next to him. We're working. We're at the point where we're merging what we had to do for this piece we made called Violet cavern. We had to write a score to these very set rhythms that he had choreographed to, and then we started to put it together. And that was when we were in the in the room with him, the dancers, and then the the main dancer that he would have kind of speaking. But the funny thing that I realized right away, and that I was out of, I've never experienced this before. I mean, went straight to the top. Like, I'm like, oh, here I am. You skipped a whole bunch. I skipped a lot of steps with dance, a lot, a lot of this. You went straight to I went, actually, yeah, no, certainly. So I'm in the room with the John Coltrane of dance, very much. Like, you've got Alvin Ailey, got all these people, and you've got Mark. He's in the conversation, right? So then it's like, okay, Merce Cunningham, Mark, you know they're there. So here he is, and he's like, the interpretive person is saying the things, and Mark is sitting next to them. And I'm kind of watching this sort of in the in the band pit area, even though we're on stage, we were just like, I'm watching Mark. I'm just all eyes on and he's just sitting there, just like, and the second that the person that was supposed to say, the things that would start talking, he would immediately interrupt it every time. And I just thought it was the most incredible. Like, they'd be like. So what we want to do actually, you know what? Well, and it was just, it would just be this, like, like this, this grilling impatience. I

Rodney  44:10

was just like, Oh, my, get out of my way.

Dave King  44:14

You know what? I'll do it, yeah? But then, even then, then they would, then he would do it, and then it was back, back down. And then the the energy would calm down. And then the the more the calm version of his interpretations would be like, So, what we want to base, so, what, what? So what you guys. And then within seconds he did, or begins jump in again, yeah, and do it. And, and it was just brilliant, what he was saying. He was very direct. And then he would sit back like this again, just like, just, smoldering, snaring at everyone. And then he would look at us and be like, sounds great, you know, yes, you know, you give us, like, a, like, a little bit of a little juice for us to right? And it was enough, like he was like, he knows he gave us a little like, you guys are fine, but he saw his move, but he's watching the move. And so the one time I got to tell you as a you as a dancer. And as a choreographer, there was one moment I bring up all the time. We ended up doing two things with him. We did this piece, Violet cavern. We ended up premiering it at bam, and we toured it a little bit in Europe and in the States. And then he actually did choreograph to our right of spring. He did a dance called Spring, spring, spring. And we played it a few times, and we couldn't tour it as much, but we did it at Ohio. We did it. We did it at Ojai. We did it a few other places where we where we we performed live with his company, doing his dance to our tours. The country has specific spots anyway. That's another story. But this moment, I'll just tell you about where he was doing the same thing we were rehearsing. I'll never forget this. It might have been the spring spring spring piece, but I think it was violet cavern, now that I think about it. And he was watching some some movement, and, of course, just just just watching his brain go and watching what they're doing, and learning about understanding modern dance and all the way that that it relates to what we do, and the invention of these moves, and the invention, it's just sort of like, it's almost like Stravinsky is like, well, it goes this way because I like the way it sounds. And it's almost like he I like the way this you move like this because it looks good.

Rodney  46:11

So it looked good. It works. It works. Yeah, no second guessing of the No, the sequencing of stuff like, whoop There you go. Yep.

Dave King  46:17

And the different body types that he uses, and all of these great ways of using counterpoint, where he's got this person doing I saw the music in it. I saw why he's so musical, right? And so I was getting it, you know? And was like, here he is, and he's, he's, he's way beyond his he doesn't dance anymore. He doesn't do anything, you know. He's just there doing the thing. I bring that up only because he, he's watching something go down, and it's not happening the way that he was seeing it, and he was getting frustrated and and all of a sudden he just, he just says, Yeah, all right, and he goes up on stage. Now, maybe this happens more often than I was privy to, but I never saw him get up in all the rehearsals and all the time and all the performance in all the dress rehearsals, and all the everything, he never got up there and did it himself. He and he was always just sort of on the fringes, or yelling things or doing whatever. And he went up on stage, and we were standing like this, and we're cool. Here he goes. And he goes up, and he all of a sudden, transformed. And did the move that he was. And it was incredible. It was like the difference was mind blowing. And here he is at that point. I don't want to age him, but he was up there. I mean, beyond his dancing ears and he, he never crushed it, yeah, yeah. It was like, and they, everyone, young, amazing dancers, perfect physiques, what they were like, damn, damn, yeah. There he is. There is, and there, he appeared. He just went no, no, and then, and then it just went like, just like, and it was just like, we were like, he transformed physically right in front of our eyes. Yeah, and that's when you're just like, You know what? Man, how inspiring. You know he's he. He was that guy. And it can affect the way you think about your own work. Because we felt that way about our work. We're confident in our work. We're not. No one's gonna sit there and say, you we don't know what we're doing. We know what we're doing. You know what you're doing. You I know we can do the same thing. We can show up. We can show up at a master class and throw down you want to call a standard. We can play it. You can do whatever. We can do it. But when you step outside yourself and you see that person that's sort of like in their world, there's, that's a top several handful person, truly, and it's like, dang, yeah, there's a gear that even his, wherever he's at, he just moves. And you feel the the the life in there. You feel that

Rodney  48:57

you've literally filled molecules. Oh

Dave King  48:59

yeah, it's a Earthquake. Earthquake, of information. It's just like, sure it

Rodney  49:03

is, it is sowing it because that and it was, it was there all along. It was always probably there long. And we talked about this a little earlier, because there's we talked about, when you encounter like the 19 year old who's just jamming and amazing and and I, I've encountered that teaching some high school students. Okay, I just don't want to ruin you. Let's just, let's, let's, so genius of you, just let come on here. Give me a space here. Let's, let's interpret this together, because that's going to serve you more absolutely me trying to teach you. Yeah, let's play. Yep, there you go. Lindman, education becomes play. And so you get to get to get that experience of Mark Morris. I'm like, Oh, that was it. And

Dave King  49:42

then we did a few other things with him, and I haven't seen him in many years, but I did like him personally a lot, and I and I, I learned a lot from watching him talk too. Yes, he says my nose knows as much music as any musician, and and his passion for music and has led to some great conversations with him. And he was very respectful to us always, I think the only time he ever even had a curt moment with I'm remembering one with me was and it was so human. It was that I was so hungry. I was sitting there, we were rehearsing for quite some time, and I just had a I took a few bites of a banana, and I put it down by the drums. And he looked down there and he saw just the banana down by the drums. He was just like, pick up the banana and

Rodney  50:29

throw it away. He didn't want to have well, because my stamped you because they're hungry.

Dave King  50:35

Just like, dang, I should have known that. You know, it's just like, come on. That's not good manners to put the banana down by there and Mark society. He's just like, his Hawk Eye just went his attention to detail. Banana Peel not not anywhere near the dance, not anywhere near the stage, and we're just not known. But he was just like, wanted me to know the banana does not belong there. Throw it away.

Rodney  50:55

Not in my space, not in my world. You got it, Mark? Yeah. You go, Yeah, I love it hilarious. I only I never encountered him when he came inside of work, right at Ohio State, where he went to grad school, but I the same service or stories, he walked in a room. It's like the person staging it, he would just interrupt, and it was like, I don't know if our dancers are ready for that? Oh, no,

Dave King  51:21

it's no one was ready for now, seriously, disquieting, you know? Yeah, I'm like, Okay, this is his style,

Rodney  51:27

yeah? This is, he's intense for a reason, and that's why he is at the level. He's asked, it's

Dave King  51:32

the job done. Gets the job done, yeah?

Rodney  51:35

Talking about experiences. I mean, it was, I mean, I'm, I can't believe I'm telling people that I'm such a fashion geek. Isaac Mizrahi playing for fashion shows. What the I mean? Did

Dave King  51:47

you actually do that? Oh, absolutely. And that was, again, you're in a room with one of these people. That is like they have, they have a singular space, and it had a very similar effect, even though Isaac was far less overtly intense with his environment. Obviously, he's a serious genius, and he's a great guy, and he was, again, really kind to us about what and he saw us with Mark. He saw our performance of that. And then he started, started checking out some bad plus shows. And it was like, it was like, we had this way, where people kind of knew outside the jazz world that we weren't just a Jazz Piano Trio. There was influence from contemporary classical music, there's influence from electronic music. There's influence from dance, the world of dance now, fashion and correct so all these things, all these things, and it was almost like these guys are going to be able to bring some other gear than just play, some standards or play play. That doesn't mean that isn't a thing. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's more like they wanted something else.

Rodney  52:49

And he and he always it always came across as he always wanted the fashion show to be more than just a fashion Absolutely, as this commercial vehicle, like see my wares, yeah, place your orders. No, I need you to experience the clothes the way I envision the meaning, correct even

Dave King  53:04

him asking a avant garde jazz trio to play live at his New York Fashion Week show, we did it three years in a row, to even have him commissioning original pieces, just to have that is so much different than the house music blasting at the galtie, a thing you could name your other designer, and they've got the sort of like they're putting on a show, but they've got some sort of digital music experience, or they've got a string quartet, or something you would imagine is more normal. And here he was, like, I want this group. And since he liked it the first year, he asked us back, and we just start, started this sort of multi year collaboration with, with Isaac Mizrahi. And he was very kind enough to ask us, you know, he started to get really disillusioned, I guess, talking to us about the that sort of couture fashion show world where he that's why he doesn't do it anymore. I don't believe he does anymore, doesn't? He doesn't. And he was saying just sort of like the way that whole construct, after years and years and years of getting to that top of the game of the thing, he started to be disillusioned on some level, and he wanted to do things like make clothes for people. You know, he was like, that's why he did his target line, and he does his,

Rodney  54:13

uh, QVC. QVC. Yeah, right. Which So, yeah, think about it.

Dave King  54:17

You've got that guy, like Top 10 fashion designers in the world, visionary, visionary, and he's doing turtlenecks for QVC, and he's having a blast, and he's like, making clothes for people, and he's still doing it really stylish. He's giving them something real, but he's also being real. He had that working class realism in him, and in a master, you know, tailor, and everything that goes into being a master designer. And you know, so for us, it was like that. He asked us then to write his theme for the QVC show. Oh, wow. We were like, really. So he was so generous to us. And he was just like, just give me some give me a theme. That's a jazz kind of thing. And we. Wrote his theme, and it was just like he used the theme for several years on his show, and he just, you know, giving us work and and just being kind to us and being a fan of the band and super positive with us. And it ended up being a really beautiful moment for us. It was like a four, five or six year period where we were dealing with Isaac, and dealing with at least three years of Fashion Week, and then a couple more years of his fashion, of his show, and he had the themes playing, and he he kept, you know, giving us a little bit of money every time every year would end, and he would be, like, I'd like to use it for another year. Like, amazing. I mean, this guy is and again, being in that visionary world of a guy. And so I'll just tell you a really fast story of that, because you're a fashion guy, and I love fashion as well, and I would so this is a very similar to Mark Morris thing. So so he came to see us at a sound check Isaac in New York, because he wanted to talk to us about what he was thinking about the theme. And so he's watching us sound check. And this the pianist of the bad plus, Ethan Iverson would wear a suit. And that was one of our things, is one guy always wore a suit for some reason, and the other guys never wore a suit already. Is sort of like, what is this? What is the image? Yeah, but the best is the guy wearing the suit. It's just a cheap Men's Warehouse, not even tailored. His whole thing is that it's kind of crumbly and little like, it's like, not quite, he wasn't. It's like, odd, like, like, yeah, he didn't go, like, custom fitted. No, he didn't. So it's like, he didn't go to Seville Roy. He's like, he's like, his whole thing was, like, it's, it's kind of his avant garde personality. It's wrinkly, it's every now and again, wrinkly, or it's not the most tailored thing in the world, and that was his style. He was very on purpose, like he wasn't, he wasn't trying to be like a dandy. He wasn't a Mac. You know? He was like, I wear a suit because jazz are wearing suits. But I don't really know. I'm not a fashion guy. So he was just wear the off the rack, right? Suits. So Ms Rahi, of course, has been aware of this for a while, and loved Ethan, and loved the whole thing, but he's sitting there watching us for years, and Ethan had this pocket square, and it was a crumpled mess. And just like, you know, not folded, right? Not even close, he's just put together like crumpled. And Isaac is watching us for a while, and he's listening, and he's just like, all sudden, you see him. He just can't take it anymore. And he goes, hang on a second.

Rodney  57:24

We stop playing. And I'm thinking

Dave King  57:25

he's gonna say something about the music like this is not working for me, because he also music. He goes, Ethan, I can't stand this anymore. Come here. And he stands up, and he stands up and he takes Ethan's pocket square out. This is one of the great like designers, like a guy that famously made a dress from a tablecloth, yep. And,

Rodney  57:45

and working with some rolls and the whole nine yard, real, unreal, unreal talent, yeah.

Dave King  57:52

And he takes the pocket square, and we just watch him fold it. If you could imagine just seeing, like these hands move in this way. That's like, he folds it and he puts it back in and, like, fluffed it just the tiniest bit, and it looked like an orchid or something. It was like the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. And he kind of fluffed it for a second, and then said there, and they sat back down and never addressed it again.

Rodney  58:22

That sounds so it was so like, mind blowing. We were just like, there he is. Man, these like, like, I can't do this anymore. I can't even listen to the music because that that pocket square. He's just couldn't do it, yep.

Dave King  58:36

Just like, Isaac. Man, that's a bad cat, you know, like, I'm surprised you didn't say, Look, come to my come to my office. I'm making you a suit. We probably ended up making. I don't know, you know, we, I don't know. I always thought that I would hit Isaac up for some at some point, knowing him, make me something, but I didn't. I never wanted to, like, assume anything. I think he probably would make us something, but it would make you guys, if I make you something, I think he would, man, watching him do that was enough. I was like, dig that. And that is,

Rodney  59:01

that is the that's the true mark of like you've been moving in these circles, yeah, and, and still you're not, you know, it just, it blows my mind. I just love it. I love the fact that is so inspiring that these experiences that you've had, and you're still having, and the latest album is fantastic. And I am, I was, it's really funny because I because I haven't been in my art studio in a while to make any sort of like work. And I just said, I because I couldn't find I usually make arts as well soundscape, like what's playing in the background, right? Kind of inspire you get you've given me music that is going to inspire a new series of work. And I was like, Oh, thank you, perfect. This was this. This is what I'm trying to get to with the tar color paper in the this, this. Oh, it makes sense. No, like you helped me make sense of something. So I appreciate it.

Dave King  59:56

Oh, thank you. I appreciate Well, we know that that any mediums inspire each. Other, and I'm so inspired by visual art and dance. And, yeah, you because

Rodney  1:00:02

you're making a visual artwork, and you came to like, like, you know you're here in the Cincinnati area for that, for not just music, but absolutely your art. Talk about your visual art. I mean, how did that like, how do you keep these was it just a manifestation of, are you always everything? Probably just like

Dave King  1:00:21

you always doing it. But then wherever it sits, maybe I don't want to assume it's always like you, but, but it seems like you're an omni creative person as well, like somebody that's interested in a lot of different forms of expression and and, and they all feed each other as we know, and that, depending on how far you want to take it, you know, the discipline is the discipline, like we talked about. Sometimes you can think of creativity as, like, even though we all need to zero in to get great at something, you know, like, zero in on the micro detail and the and the the amount of hours it takes to kind of get there. But being able to do that with multiple disciplines is is something some people are drawn to. I've always been that way, but I but I always had to kind of prioritize music, but I always had a visual and cinematic element to the way that I wrote, the way that I would make records. I was always wanting to be a part of the or if the the center of the design, and then providing some materials for the records, either photographs, drawings, whatever the Rite of Spring package, for instance, is all my work as a beautiful package. Thank you. And so all these things become a thing where you're like, I've done it for this long in the service of maybe records, maybe design and all these other things. I started thinking that I wanted to start flexing my love of just the work itself, outside the music, outside a record package, outside or whatever, but more like the drawings and paintings themselves, photographs themselves, and start to see how I would go about exhibiting work, or at least having the work be seen via a photography book or via a painting show or drawing show here and there. Start small, just like all we started our vision, you know, and figure out a way these steps, yeah, baby steps. And that's what I so So to start, I setting goals for myself, of like, after doing this for 35 years or 30 years, I would start showing work from all different parts of my development and some of my favorite works. And I brought down about 12 or 13 pieces works on paper that are showing at the wash Park gallery, that are that finished tonight. It was just a pop up show, so just yesterday and today,

Rodney  1:02:25

just to get in, you know, so there people can, yeah, it's

Dave King  1:02:28

just a show, and there's prices too. But that wasn't the point. The point for me was to show the show. I

Rodney  1:02:35

tell people, they'll tell me, are you selling your work? Mike, it's not about the selling the work. It's like, I am in no yet. Anyway, not yet. Even somebody buys it. Great. If they don't, it's still a great statement, correct? I will always say, Great. Yeah, great.

Dave King  1:02:49

It's much more about showing and getting, getting my feet wet, on, on, on how to present. We do, like, if you, if you, if you, the beautiful thing about you, maybe you and me the way we can see, you know, branching out, you're doing your visual art. I mean, obviously you've always done it. I'm sure you've always done it and everything.

Rodney  1:03:07

But actually, no, I Well, dance for such a long time, and I, there you go. I set it aside. There you go. It was really interesting, exactly.

Dave King  1:03:13

And so, so this idea, though, that because you reached a certain level of excellence with your dance and your program work programmatic. It's the same with the music. It's like at the very least, I have a bar that I have set that I know and respect enough about, especially 20th century art from many different movements that I and architecture as well that I can, I have the bar set where I know I'm not gonna present something unless I know I can stand behind it like I can the music. And that bar is set. I'm not gonna do the and here's a $200 drawing of my dog that's at a coffee shop. No, no, yeah. This has gotta be, yeah. This has got to be the level. And I finally feel like, you know what? I believe I have a body of work at this point that spans 20 years, that, you know, I've been doing a lot longer, but I trashed most of the early stuff, and it's like, or it's hidden in a cave somewhere that never to be seen, parents basement, yep, parent's basement, and then, and then under the house and so, and then rotting and then, and now I have this like body that I think I'm like, You know what? There's a line here. There's a language here. And I feel like I'm moving to a place of maturity where I can stand behind it, like I can the music. And at that moment, I feel like I'm going to start trying to show the stuff a little bit more, because now I can feel like it doesn't matter if it can, if it connects right off the bat, the road is long, or it's right away, it doesn't matter. I know that I did the best thing I could do at this facility, because

Rodney  1:04:54

it is no longer consideration of other people's assessment. It isn't yeah of the work anymore. Yep. It's probably the same way. It's the same with the music at this point. You 3035, years.

Dave King  1:05:04

I'm not asking anybody what they think. It's like, you could No, oh, you hate it. I love it. If you hate it, yeah, I'm like, great. I'm moving on to borrow. I'll still be in the studio. I like it. I mean, my philosophy is always, we say this all the time. We like this stuff. We think you will too, and I think that's the great outreach that you can do. You don't have to make it for someone, but you want someone to receive it, but, yeah, but you don't make it for them.

Rodney  1:05:30

If they come along on the journey, like you said, instantaneous, or, like a longer journey, like it takes them a couple miles before they finally get it exactly, that's not, that's not your response, not so incorrect. This is a great conversation. And I wish it could be longer, because we have these timelines, of course. Sorry if I went on to No, you didn't. This is awesome. This is, this is, this is exactly what I feel strongly about doing these kind of podcasts like, so that people understand and get to hear the voice of the person behind what what they're making like, like and understand the share humanity. It's not the work, it's the humanity. Yes, the humanity behind the work? Yeah, absolutely you did other human being behind it. I guarantee you your your heart and your mind, your body, your spirit, will open up absolutely possibilities. And so we always leave with like, because I know the people coming into this war this space and at different points and junctures, but what would be the last thing you would want somebody to understand and know about you and your creative process and what that might inspire them to go? Yeah, I got this. I can, I can do that.

Dave King  1:06:40

I guess the more you try and describe yourself, the more you have to just describe, almost like your view of yourself within humanity. You know, I think that I just try to see that largely, we all have the capacity to translate love through things, and if there's a way for for I had a conversation with a very, very incredible, very famous visual artist lately, about a few weeks ago, about this particular topic, about creating the the avenue that people can fall in love with art and music in a way that they don't feel intimidated, and they can reach it at wherever they need to reach it at in their in their life, whatever time that there's something perhaps cerebral, somewhere in there that could also be attached to, but that's not necessary. That they can meet it on its visceral and emotional terms, and also that that you can be vulnerable enough to to love something, that that can change the way that you view everything that that perhaps somehow in some universe, great love, a great music, great paintings, great dance, creates less violence, creates less need to destroy each other, creates all these things in some sort of utopian backdrop. I believe the arts have always sort of inhabited a space of gentleness, inhabited a space of beauty, and the more people can not be intimidated and feel out of that conversation, because our gallery it's like to be part of that conversation in the way that isn't threatening, it isn't pretentious, it isn't all these things that stop people and in more like a conversation of this is a conversation about beauty. It's a conversation about love inspiration. You can take that and translate that to anything you're doing in your life, if you're whatever you are in your and your trajectory, where, if you need to fall in love with something again, if you need to re engage with the world again, with nature, again, whatever the arts and music and all and dance and all of these things are elemental parts of human beings, higher consciousness. I believe they're just a part of our higher vibrational frequency. And if we all know that's available to everyone, it's that you can you could just be an enthusiast. Being an enthusiast is the greatest thing ever to love. What just to be in love with something is amazing. So in my opinion, me to get to know me. My thing is only about that message of like, I love it. I hope you will too, because that's a great feeling to be in love with something.