Failing For You
Failing For You
Transparency and Soft Skills in Interviews
In this episode, host Jordan Yates interviews Grant Clements, a headhunter for industrial companies. They discuss the recruitment process, the difference between headhunting and talent acquisition, and the importance of transparency and soft skills in interviews. Grant shares his experience with scammers and offers advice on making professional connections and standing out in interviews. He also emphasizes the significance of investing time and being open to opportunities. The episode concludes with a discussion on red flags in interviews and the consequences of lying about experience or education.
Connect with Grant: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clementsgrant/
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Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Failing. For you, it's me, your host, jordan Yates, and today I'm joined by Grant Clements, and you guys are gonna be really excited because Grant is a headhunter for really really impressive industrial companies who I cannot name drop, but you guys can probably guess who they are. He is coming on today to give us all the insider tips on what you need to do to get yourself into a position that you can land a job at a company like this, or maybe get more insight into the recruitment process. So, without further ado, grant, say hello to everybody.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone. Hi everyone as well. Yeah, jordan, thanks for having us on.
Speaker 1:But real quick. Before we get started, let's hear a quick message from our sponsors.
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Speaker 1:Of course, Grant, before I ask you any questions, I want to preface with a bit of your background. So can you tell us about what it means to be a headhunter and kind of the industry that you work in?
Speaker 2:So I come from being on the ground to being a recruiter. Somebody gave me the opportunity to, and I recruit for my specialisms, for what I've been doing since I've done my apprenticeship over in the UK, gaining my electrical ticket. So I now use it in a technical way to help people find new jobs and for companies to be connected to top talent in the industry.
Speaker 1:And you have your own company that does this.
Speaker 2:Yes, correct. Yes, I've been going since 2021. I had our first little boy called Caden and decided that about three days after that that I needed to go my own direction and no bigger person to have a newborn there. So it's refreshing to go ahead and start my own business as GC Recruitment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seems to be a common theme amongst many of my guests that we're very entrepreneurial spirited the people that like me, obviously, and then my guests that come on. I guess it's just a very good fit, because we fail a lot as entrepreneurs and we get to learn a lot, and it's on us to figure it out as we go. So how has it been, since starting your own company and the learning curve it's taken, to get to the point where you are helping big companies recruit?
Speaker 2:point where you are helping big companies recruit.
Speaker 2:It's been refreshing for me, um, I've worked for for two good agencies during my time. That I appreciate for somebody that brought me into the industry, to meet the individuals here in the us and not knowing anyone. So I mean it's been refreshing to come over to start this from the ground up, to try and leave legacy, but just pushing myself in a in a tough time just after after the pandemic and everything, which was a real shame, but, uh, powered on through and we're in our third year this year, so it's been refreshing to pick up and be front-end sales and starting off on zero every day. It's a grind, um, but it's something I do enjoy doing and I think that the fruits of the labor are there for everyone to enjoy, um, if you do work hard and you do get a bit of luck along the way. Everyone needs luck in life and some people create it more than others and, um, when you do get that luck, then yeah, you've got to go along, uh, with the way that it's going and take a shot at things sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I like it. Last week when we were talking, you said that there's kind of a differentiation maybe not technically, but like at least in the industry between being like a headhunter and then just like a recruiter talent acquisition. Can you kind of tell us the difference of what it means?
Speaker 2:when you're like a headhunter, that's a bit more specialized, you're going after them, right yeah, it's definitely different because you, you know the heads that you are out hunting for, the skills, the personalities. You do get that um intricacy going into it and matching up people's personas with hiring managers. So, um, I've never been the one that wants to be great at everything. Um, because I don't think you you can be. But if you can focus on the right skill set there's usually six or seven uh skill sets within that that you can go ahead and craft and master and know what you're talking about and and be good at placing people in the industry, putting time into your craft um, it is a lot to it and having a passion that goes with it.
Speaker 2:If you do something with a passion, then results will always follow. Um, and that's been that's time and time through um. So, yeah, there's definitely a difference between headhunting and talent acquisition, where you have a lot more roles to fulfill on that side of things and so you've got a big, broad spectrum of roles that you do recruit for on that side and it's a little bit like staffing solutions, bits like that. You're in a certain area or whatever professionalism that you've got is that try and work with somebody who operates in that market day in day out. The results will follow. They really will do. And if you do, go with a headhunter style type recruiter to go out on behalf of you, behalf of yourself, and to propose positions to you and see whether they do fit what you're looking for and whether it's professionally, financially, being home, more.
Speaker 1:Lots of varied reasons, but I feel that working with the headhunter is a key way to go in the market so have you since you started, like, obviously you're connected with some really great companies and you know the jobs and the roles they're looking for. Have you had people in your personal life or befriend you because they know that you're connected to these companies and you can find them a job? Is that something that you ever have to deal with? Is someone talking to me for that? But also it's good because it's my job but do you ever feel like you kind of have to push off anybody in your personal life that talks to you because they do want a job? Or is that a good sales funnel for you? Like, what's that like?
Speaker 2:it's keeping family and professional courtesy between everyone and you've got to have a differentiate the two um, they don't go hand in hand easy because you've got emotions. Like my sister-in-law works for the business she joined recently, so we've expanded, which is great, and she's obviously my sister-in-law, but she's really good at what she's doing and we've got a professional relationship where if there is a problem then she needs to come to us in a professional way and be transparent with it all. So it can be. But as long as you set the boundaries from the beginning and the expectation is there, then I don't see a problem with it and I'm more than happy to help people, um, whoever it is, that's just naturally. Being in sales, yeah, to have a chat with people.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, clear, it's upset between family and professional work and if they do cross, then Okay, so let's see what is something I'm trying to think that somebody would really want to know. Okay, when you get a client looking for a high priority position, how do you vet people? Like, if you're going to go interview somebody, like, what are you looking for? Like, what's your vetting process, like in an interview for a candidate for, like, a high level position?
Speaker 2:So it really comes down to like persona, what they want to do and having a skill set that is transferable, which is what the business has been based on, so you're not having to worry about skill set. That's one problem that I don't typically have to worry about, because everyone that I try to connect with, that I want to have chats with, that I want to network with, have all got key things in common with each other, which goes down to the knowledge for power distribution systems, whether it's in power plants or it's utilities, or water reclamation, or paper or sawmills it all goes to send back to power distribution systems.
Speaker 1:So they have that hard skill that hard skill.
Speaker 2:Yes, that hard skill.
Speaker 1:And the soft skill is where the next level of that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that the great thing is that there's a couple of positions that you can do from, say, being in the field, to use your skill set in a different way, um, and change your soft skills in that sense. Um, so if you're in the field, then that you can go into sales. What do you want to do? Do you want to work for an oem and sell equipment sales, or do you want to go for rental companies that that rent electrical test equipment? Or do you want to do electrical services? Or do you want to do applications, for example? So you don't just have to be in the field. So there's a lot of different avenues for people that are wanting different things from their next job that they're going forward for, and some people do want to change on that side of things.
Speaker 2:But I think that having the hard skill sets the key thing because you can always work from that. It's difficult to work with a candidate who who doesn't have that skill set because professionally you have to say that not not the right fit for yourself. Like I'm very strict in what I do and you try, you help people along the way, but ultimately you're going to help people more um with those hard skill sets, because that's what you're dealing with and that's the market that you, that you are attracting, that you are working in to make sure that your best version of you are to help people and hopefully the end result is that they get a couple of offers for jobs that they do want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting point the jobs that they want. Now I want to get into some listener questions only because typically I would save them for the end, but Edward always asks the best questions and they're kind of questions I would ask Edward Fenton, somebody I've been connected with on LinkedIn for a while, asked us this. He's given us five questions but expect the interviewee to tell all. I've had so many recruiters grill me for half an hour and then ghost me in my career. I'm to the point where I want a full-time job description before I schedule time to talk with a recruiter that cold contacts me. Is that too much to ask? So, basically, why aren't you telling them who you're recruiting for and what the job's about? What's the reason, grant, tell us. We're mad.
Speaker 2:I'm one that likes to get on the phone and have a chat with somebody, right? So you're both investing time in actually having a chat about the position, about something that you've got. It's no job descriptions and that should be sent by. I think an introduction call first to have a chat with each other is the way forward. That's the way that I do it Now. I'm always transparent with who it is. Money, travel, everything's got to be discussed, but that's the professional side that you need to give people. That's the information, but it does go both ways, right? So it's unfortunate that recruiters at times do, or the profession at times does get like they ghost to be. Like Edward said, and can't say that anything's perfect in life. But I think getting job descriptions up front without having a talk is too transactional. It's like you don't want to put any time into it to find out more because you can't read tone over text.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's transactional.
Speaker 2:So I think having a phone call with somebody to this is what I do, this is what you do. Is it a good match? Perfect, well, look, if it is, then let's have a chat, let's explore a couple of opportunities, and it might be a 10-minute phone call. Other people probably tell you I might be more like 20 minutes, but I love a chat, yeah, but I think that to get a job description straight from the outset, with not putting any time into having a chat with somebody, isn't the way that I like to do things. I like to have a chat and then you can ask all the questions you can and all the questions you want and you get a transparent answer.
Speaker 1:But just invest in the time to have a chat so if somebody, if you reach out to somebody, what are you normally saying to? Or say you're in the situation where he's like they want to talk to me, but I don't know what the job's about. What is that cold message look like? And then like how do you get into the point of chatting? Are you like, hey, there's a job I think you'd be a good fit for? Or what does that look like?
Speaker 2:yeah, so it's reaching out to people that have got a that like that hard skill set and not being open to having a chat, and it's not just sales. That is about talking, that the whole world is to connect, and I think that if you're looking at it from a relevancy level professionally being at your job, whether that's five days a week, three days a week, seven days a week professionally everyone gets treated the same. But the relevancy is the key part, for why should we have a chat? Yeah, um, and it. That's what it's for. You want to do the best. That's why I went into a niche and that's why I think that there's a few more people going towards being a like a professional head hunter and learning the skill sets from making mistakes and failing.
Speaker 1:Um, and everything can be getting good at you, getting good at the craft, um, on that side, have you ever done the opposite, where you send somebody a job description and then ask to chat and see how that works?
Speaker 2:not not really. I probably have done over the years.
Speaker 1:I couldn't say that I never have right yeah, of course I have, and sometimes it's like, look he's here, yeah.
Speaker 2:Or we could that. Somebody catches me and I'm just in a little bit more of a moment where it's like, do you know what? Like, let me, let me, let me send you the job description, because then, like, giving trust to get trust, yeah, I just feel that, like, if you send the job description over, there's always more to a job than the job description there always is. So a job description is very like it's not going to tell you everything about the job and it. It doesn't like you don't talk about benefits, it's just looking at the job description and it's too. It's too quick and too easy to pass up and just say, no, yeah, you shouldn't be reaching out to people that the job is totally not relevant for.
Speaker 2:Yeah do you know what I mean. So you've got to look at the relevancy on the side of things. So if I'm reaching out to somebody to do them, I'm reaching out for a reason because I've got something to have have a chat about or to network with you. I've got such a big network across the us that I haven't been in for eight years. It's, it's it. It might be somebody that I know that's recruiting for a position, so it word of mouth happens, so that's that's the whole world. Ai technology everyone's trying to band together. Well, if you're going to do it professionally, speak to people that are relevant. So it's. They're the conversations that I like to have, and that's what I would say to everyone is to speak to a recruiter that does what you do professionally.
Speaker 2:Don't go to your generalist right, yeah go to somebody who specializes in what you do, that's on the same level, that's got the same knowledge, or or some knowledge, never going to know more than the people actually doing the job. Even though I've done the job back in the UK, it's been a minute a bit rusty, but to speak with people that know about the profession and that is definitely a key thing.
Speaker 1:That kind of leads into his next question which says with the large number of scammers posing as recruiters, is there a surefire way to tell the difference between the two? Do recruiters realize how many job seekers are being attacked by scammers? I was actually offered a job by one, but it was verified but verified it was a scam by contacting the actual company before I was victimized by the scammer. Poor AdWord man. We needed to get AdWord in contact with a real recruiter. But I guess there goes your question how can you tell the difference? Or how do you make sure that you don't look like spam or a scammer?
Speaker 2:I mean I use LinkedIn a lot. Linkedin and my network and the contacts that I've built for work right. So you get to the point where you start to obviously filter things out. In that sense, do you know what I mean? I think with scammers, unfortunately, there's always going to be chances in life. I think going on LinkedIn, having to check see if they've got the great tip next to them to see if they verify their information, could be one way, um that LinkedIn have tried to help the community in that sense. But some people don't go on there for a long time and not up to date with everything. So, unfortunately, with the scammers, it it is going to happen. But just be due, diligent and have a look, see if they're on a professional networking site like linkedin, yeah, do you know what I?
Speaker 2:mean? It mean it's always a half decent way to at least have a look at. Is this person genuine? Is their profile complete? Do they look like it's just been made up with AI, for example? Is there content to it? Do you know what I mean? I think you can look at profiles and see if they've got recommendations and if they're active and doing all that stuff. So, unfortunately, the scammers are good these days, but you just need to be due diligent in who it is and like you've done it. We've just referenced the company that it came from and double checked to see what it was, um, and glad that you found that it was a scam yeah, yeah, he says um, one more question here.
Speaker 1:When someone is relatively new to an area, what? What are some good ways? Slash places to make professional connections in the community, which I guess you've had some experience with literally coming to a new country, how do you I guess you said LinkedIn is one way to go about it Is there any other ways you connect with professionals other than LinkedIn?
Speaker 2:There's conferences you can go to, so I recently went to a power test in Dallas, which was a great bash.
Speaker 2:Met a lot of people, clients there as well, professional networking. So getting yourself to the conference is a great way forward. There's loads of it going on. You've got Distributech, you've got IEEE. You've got the Energy Summit coming up in I believe it's in Memphis Tripoli. You've got the Energy Summit coming up in I believe it's in Memphis. So you've got all these different power conferences that go on. They're a good thing to go and invest your time into. Yeah, it costs money, but unfortunately everything costs money these days. So it's investing your time into it to get the professional network connections and to build that up and have face-to-face relationships instead of it being over the phone on that side. So that's a good way to network with people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's a really good tip. I live on LinkedIn. I try to go to some in-person things, but I'm not social enough, so I'm bad about that. But, edward, I hope we helped you out a little bit today and we wish you luck in finding your next job. And Edward is a mechanical engineer. He has a lot of really good hard skills, but it sounds like he's needing some help in the soft skill area. So, edward, thanks for reaching out, thanks for commenting. I always love whenever you put yourself out there. It's definitely in the spirit of failing for you. So grant back to our regular portion of the interview. What is the biggest red flag that someone can have in an interview Like? What's the number one thing you shouldn't do in, like an interview with someone like yourself?
Speaker 1:oh and so many things I know that there's so many different things that can be, I think and it doesn't have to be an absolute, but like what's like something that can be like a red flag to you. Like if I call and I'm like being rude, probably, but like if you ask for pay too soon, people think ask about pay is weird. Like what's something that throws off the vibe before you even get started.
Speaker 2:Transparency and being cagey. I think that what we deal with is negotiating salaries and talking about personal stuff, which is people depend on salaries, house, food, kids, pets, lifestyle, hobbies so you're talking about something very personable, right? Um? So for some people like look, they don't know me on the phone or don't know yourself, jordan, when they're speaking about personal things like that. So it can be difficult, but minimum, be transparent with your skill set. Be transparent for what you're looking for. Give somebody the chance Don't not give somebody a chance to have a chat with you. So if you can't be transparent, then you can't find out about companies to really get into the conversation. So, yeah, try to be transparent, try not to be too cagey, but if someone's being a bit too personal, then hey, that found that as a little bit of a personal question and everyone's different, so different people on a daily basis. So, yeah, there's a number of things, but just be open to the conversation, be transparent.
Speaker 1:That's key that seems very reasonable. I guess. On the other end of things, what is a way to like when your trust look good? Would it just be being transparent? Is that kind of the flip side of it, or is there any other like methods someone could use when they're going into an interview to make them really stand out?
Speaker 2:I think time and preparation. You're obviously taking time to get on the phone or do a video interview, and some of these so many video interviews are super technical, like if people coming off of some interviews they're like, yeah, that was, that was tough. I was like I told you it's gonna be difficult, yeah, but never really had an interview like that. Um, but I think, being invested in it.
Speaker 2:If you're going to invest the time to have a chat, well, you might as well invest a little bit more time to find out about the position, to have a chat with the hiring manager. So invest time into it. It's that's key to give people the chance because you don't know who you're going to meet. I didn't know who I was going to meet when I first moved there, but you put yourself out there. You go to the conferences, um, picking up phone, you're talking with people, you're building relationships and there's people that I've built rapport with throughout the industry, from east to west coast, from north to south of it, like um meeting up with people to go for a beer, and that's when you can do.
Speaker 2:But taking the time to invest into the opportunity, invest into that company, that's what people want to see. Is the investment the same as you want to see if I join you? Or what investment am I going to get? Like, what's my personal return for it? Great, it's great turning up to go for work and you've got a job and you've got money coming in. But personal investment is so big because that's personal, that's do I want to do it. You can't teach, you can't it. Some it comes more naturally than others. But, yes, invest in the time and the opportunity to look down certain avenues, to give it a chance. That's a must.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, it sounds so simple when you say it, though. It's basically like okay, you have your hard skills, you show up, you're transparent, you're personable, you spend the time, but it's like there's still so many people that just cannot figure out how to get past the first round to get to landing a job. Like do you think there's a reason why that is? Is there ever a point where you give someone feedback at the end of like, hey, here's why it didn't go well, because I see people that are perpetually struggling to get past the first, second round of interviews yeah, and so going back a little, going back a little bit.
Speaker 2:So if you're working with a headhunter who's got a good relationship with their client, sometimes the conversation just needs a little up, just needs a little look. They've got good soft skills. They might not have all the hard skills, but they've got great soft skills and that's for you to find out more about that person and that to do a sell, sometimes a no is a complete no, but you've always got to be willing to ask a question on that side and the amount of times that that person's ended up getting chosen because of soft skill, because somebody said hold on a second, what about if we looked at this? It gives everyone's human. So we've all got different way of looking at things.
Speaker 2:Being a good headhunter is giving questions to hiring managers for start, if you place with them a number of times to know them as a person, personalities and that, to get them to evaluate somebody again to have a look at, and it's quite remarkable how many times you're not. Second, third, interviews, yeah, or placements. Typically it's telephone, face-to-face offer. That three-state process is typical for myself anyway, um, but I think that, um, I think it can also show up gaps as well. So some jobs require total hard skills and they they need to be there.
Speaker 2:And even though you look relevant on paper and you're relevant with the headhunter and they put you on because of that relevancy, sometimes you just fall a little bit short. And I think that people can take from it that, if you get feedback and actually have a chat with people, that you might be able to help them. And it's almost like a free health check in that sense. For, look, you're missing this. This is what the company feels like you're missing in your resume, in your experience now. Can you go back and stay with your company and and apply yourself to learn in those skill sets? You can go back in six, twelve months time and go back for a position, say that I've got some of this skill set now to to come back with, so it can also be a good health check on where you are.
Speaker 1:That's actually actually pretty cool to have that and then just be able to have that open conversation which, now that we're getting close to the end, I want to ask you a funny question which definitely would be a fail, which you may or may not even have an answer for, but have you ever come across somebody who has blatantly lied about their experience or education and then you found out during the interview process that they either didn't work somewhere, didn't have a job or didn't have that degree? Is that something you've ever seen personally or heard about within your industry?
Speaker 2:yes, I have one incident, but I know that this one definitely can't beat your head. So, yes, I have, and it was like the most. Like, oh, my god, like, yes, um, I have, and that was nuts, like that really was nuts, because it was just bigger than yeah it was like, not just that, it was like that yeah, so yes and yeah. It blew my mind away like it was, yeah, when I was working for a business.
Speaker 2:So um yeah, there's some, yeah, there's a couple, but I'd say that one stands out top of my head straight away that's hilarious because, like I have an engineering degree, right.
Speaker 1:But like I've never had a company ask for transcripts or records and I know big companies do but my first job out of college they're just like you graduated right. And I'm like, yeah, and they're like, okay, cool, we believe you. And I'm like there was no verification. And it makes me think how many people could have just said, yep, I went to school, got my engineering degree, and then they show up and apply and get down down their career path and then all of a sudden, like one day somebody finds out that they didn't. But it's like, I don't know, I didn't know people actually did that, or if that was just something funny. So it's, it's kind of funny to hear that somebody's done that before.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's almost like catch me if you can, isn't it with tom hanks? But he did actually end up taking his bar test. But yeah, unfortunately can it happen. Yeah, it can do. I haven't had it on that level, but yeah, I can assume it definitely does happen or has happened in the past.
Speaker 1:So we could definitely say for in terms of red flags and things not to do do not lie about your experience or education yeah, don't lie, yeah, don't lie.
Speaker 2:White lies aren't good when you're looking for jobs and you're speaking with people, um. So, yeah, transparency, relevancy, um, and you'll be in a good, you'll be in a good spot and be in with a chance or a shout to get the position. On that side. Because I think soft skills are. I think they probably make up about 30, maybe a little bit more than that of an interview. It's a big chunk, yeah, it's a big chunk, but that soft skills that 30% can get you the job at times and I've seen that happen over somebody having 60 to 70 percent of hard skills. Those soft skills, like it is so important. It really is. That's like. But, yeah, give, give headhunters a chance.
Speaker 2:Um, have a listen with jordan, have a chat with her. She enjoys what she's doing with her passion. I enjoy what I do with my passion. So if you're in the power sector, you work in power distribution systems, you do field service, you do sales, operations, management. There's a few more skill sets in there. But if you want to look, reach out to me, connect with me. I've got my page up there on 9 to 5. Every day I'm grinding, grinding, start from zero every day and it can be a slight good time. So, um, jordan, the kudos to yourself for opening your business, and that this isn't something I typically do, but I want to move forward and make sure people know what we're doing out there, which is good, and then have a chat. We're not perfect, don't get me wrong, but we are relevant, and being relevant is key, as we were saying.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. I'm so glad you came on. Guys, if you want to reach out to Grant, I'm going to put his LinkedIn page in the description as well as his company page. So if you guys want to reach out, connect with him and say, hey, grant, about that job, I need one. Reach out to him. I don't fully know the process, so seems like a nice guy. If you guys can't tell after the 30 minutes of hanging out with him, so put yourself out there, hope for the best and let Grant help you if you are in the correct sector. But, guys, thank you so much for listening. It was great having you on today, grant, but yeah, that's all we have for today. So, as always, I'm your host, jordan Yates. In the meantime, I'll be failing for you, see you.
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