The Agenda Podcast: Decoding Crypto

1 year later: Catching up with CryptoHarlem, OriginTrail and Blockchain Socialist

• Matt Mitchell, Tomaž Levak, Joshua Dávila • Season 1 • Episode 43

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Three of The Agenda’s first guests return to the podcast to update us on the wins and losses of the last year and their goals and vision for 2025. CryptoHarlem founder Matt Mitchell, OriginTrail co-founder Tomaž Levak, and Blockchain Radicals author Joshua Dávila sit down with Ray and Jonathan for the second half of this two-part episode.

The Agenda is brought to you by Cointelegraph and hosted/produced by Ray Salmond and Jonathan DeYoung. Follow Cointelegraph on X (Twitter) at @Cointelegraph, Jonathan at @maddopemadic and Ray at @HorusHughes. Jonathan is also on Instagram at @maddopemadic, and he makes the music for the podcast — hear more at madic.art.

Follow CryptoHarlem on X at @cryptoharlem, Tomaž at @TomazOT, and Joshua Dávila at @TBSocialist.

Check out Cointelegraph at cointelegraph.com.

Timestamps:
(00:00) - Introduction to The Agenda podcast and Matt Mitchell of CryptoHarlem
(01:00) - CryptoHarlem and the global political changes influencing the hacktivist community
(03:13) - What motivates Matt Mitchell?
(04:44) - Defining hacktivism and examples of hacktivism
(07:48) - AI and surveillance
(16:08) - Final thoughts and Matt’s positive outlook
(18:42) - Introduction to Tomaž Levak of OriginTrail
(20:06) - The Importance of trusted knowledge in AI systems and OriginTrail’s expansion into the aviation industry
(26:07) - The problem of AI hallucinations
(29:25) - The definition of edge nodes and how they represent the future of OriginTrail
(34:53) - Final thoughts and the future of OriginTrail
(38:05) - Introduction to Joshua Dávila, aka the Blockchain Socialist, and his book, “Blockchain Radicals”
(40:53) - The politicization of crypto in the 2024 election cycle
(44:37) - The media’s role in the crypto narrative
(48:35) - The role of blockchain in times of crisis
(52:21) - Overview of Breadchain and its future plans
(56:31) - Final thoughts and Joshua’s optimism for 2025 and the future of crypto

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The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this podcast are its participants’ alone and do not necessarily reflect or represent the views and opinions of Cointelegraph. This podcast (and any related content) is for entertainment purposes only and does not constitute financial advice, nor should it be taken as such. Everyone must do their own research and make their own decisions. The podcast’s participants may or may not own any of the assets mentioned.

[00:00:00] Ray Salmond: Crypto is for everyone, not just rocket scientists, venture capitalists, and high IQ developers. Welcome to the Agenda, a Cointelegraph podcast that explores the promises of crypto, blockchain and Web3 and how regular-ass people level up with technology.

[00:00:22] Jonathan DeYoung: Welcome to The Agenda. This week, we are bringing you the second part of our special 1-year later episode, where we catch up with previous guests to see what they’ve been up to, what they are excited about and what their goals are for 2025.

[00:00:36] Ray Salmond: To pick up where we left off, we reconnected with hacktivist Matt Mitchell, the founder of CryptoHarlem, to gather his views on how AI is impacting privacy, operational security and activist-related causes. We were also excited to hear about CryptoHarlem’s success in their local initiatives and Matt’s goals for the future.

So we’ve got Matt back on with us today. It’s been more than a year, and a lot has changed in the world. The political landscape, the crypto market. There’s a war in Ukraine between them and Russia. Things in the States are getting a little bit dicey because it’s an election year. So, I feel like it’s an appropriate time for us to catch up. So, what has CryptoHarlem been up to since we last spoke?

[00:01:33] Matt Mitchell: It was our ten-year anniversary last year, and so we were riding the high of doing this for a decade. I was looking back at it thinking, wow, like from the day I said my first sentence at a community center on Malcolm X Boulevard and Martin Luther King Boulevard to then when we last spoke to now, I think the biggest change is 50% of the world is having national elections this year. And so we’ve seen is like whenever there’s national elections, there’s unrest. It can be the kind of unrest that people in the streets, live ammunition from, you know, security forces pointed at them. Or it could be the kind of unrest that’s just like a sense of dread or angst that lives in the back of your mind. We’ve never seen anything like it. And it is not disappointed, right? I mean, as a hacktivist, as someone who works in security and safety for all people, as someone who’s a hacker for good. This world is completely different, and we still got months to go on this calendar. And there’s still that moves to happen. If you look at the political change in the United Kingdom, you look at the political unrest in Slovakia and what’s going on now in Haiti, Kenya, etc. I mean, it’s just a playbook that’s being played over and over again, and it affects all things. But technology interestingly plays a huge role, maybe a larger role than ever, right? And, of course, with all technology, cryptocurrency is part of that technology that is going for a ride and taking place and being part of all these things, right? We saw a national election in Russia. We saw all kinds of things playing out. And I think it’s an interesting and exciting time, even here in the United States, even here in the streets of Harlem, it’s an interesting and exciting time.

[00:03:13] Ray Salmond: So do you feel, based off of some of these current events that you mentioned, do you feel more inspired and like amped up and there’s more work to be done? And we have objectives and a trajectory on like how we’re going to go and achieve these things within our community, or has a sense of kind of like foreboding and fear settled in. And are you feeling like ten years later, we’re worse off than we were than when I first started this thing?

[00:03:39] Matt Mitchell: This isn’t a good business that I’m in if you’re, if you get scared easy, it takes a lot for me to get shook. So I would say, yeah, no, I’m good. I’m amped. I’m excited. First and foremost, like, we are protectors. You know, my, like, presentation partner Danacea Vo from Cyberlixir says we’re cyber guardians. We gave a talk on cyber guardians. Like we’re guardians of the people. We’re guardians of the marginalized. We’re guardians of the people who, you know, they’re not on the margins by accident. They’re pushed there. And in times of mass change are times when they need us most. And so, if anything, I feel even a stronger sense of purpose as an educator and as a hacktivist, a stronger sense of I was right, I’m doing the right thing. They need me now more than ever. We need each other more now than ever. Like, you know, when there’s problems, and there’s issues, and there’s impacts that are harmful, you know, there’s no emergency crew coming to save you. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. But we got this. So, that’s where CryptoHarlem is, and that’s where we are. So we’re just getting ready and amped to do those things to assist all people everywhere globally who need us.

[00:04:44] Ray Salmond: Well said. I think we should dial back just a little bit to kind of define hacktivism because when people think of hacking, my mind goes to Lazarus group in North Korea hacking stuff and crypto and whatnot. Or you think of like Mission Impossible movies where it’s all international, global. Everyone’s super smart doing stuff on computers, and there’s a guy in a van with a microphone in his ear directing traffic and whatnot. And from our last conversation, you had enlightened me to the fact that hacktivism is local. And before we hopped on this call, you mentioned that in New York, you were just a hacking conference and some of the demonstrations and talks that you went to were more like physical and tangible. Had nothing to do with computers. So, talk to us a little bit about what’s happening in the actual community that you live in and some of the physical aspect of hacktivism that you shared with us about this conference that you were at.

[00:05:39] Matt Mitchell: Well, first, let me start with hacktivism. I’m one of the best hackers in the world. And we’re taught, though, like I come from two worlds, the cybersecurity professional world, which are people who get paid six-figure salaries to protect banks and stuff, right? And then the hacker world, which is like, yo, we invented this. We can turn anyone’s technology, hardware, software, and middleware to do our bidding. We can twist it around like a snake even though we didn’t create it or make it right. And we can do that for good things, and we can do it for bad things. We can do it to help others. We could do it to be selfish and help ourselves. So those two communities I come from, both of those communities, right? And hacktivism is just using a computer, using technology, using this understanding of these systems for activism. It’s right there in the name, right? So you’re hacking it and being an activist at the same time. Some people, they write letters to their elected officials, just bringing it local. Some people, they vote. Some people march, make signs, or try to educate and advocate to their friends and family over a dinner table. We say do all those things, but a keyboard can give you the power of not a hundred people or a thousand people but a million people.

That’s hacktivism. It’s that concept, that paradigm shift of like, I just want to be efficient. And if I’m really trying to, you know, make change happen. Yes, it’s great to be in company of others. Yes, it’s great to feel like I’m not alone and, like, look, my brethren, to my left and right, feel the same way. But maybe there’s other ways than letting the steam out. Maybe we don’t need to let the steam out. Maybe we need the steam to power some machines to make some real change happen. And that’s hacktivism at its core. Examples of that could be, and this comes straight from the presentation that I did with Dan, leading workshops in our community, whatever that is to you on how to use encryption, how to use cryptocurrency, how to use all these things that are around right now in 2024 to do things differently, like an Apple commercial back in the day and do things wiser, smarter, faster, harder, and leveraging things that exist like AI in new and exciting ways. So, that’s hacktivism, too. It’s just taking the newest technology and being like, how can I wrap this thing around my fist and punch through to a better reality?

[00:07:47] Jonathan DeYoung: It’s funny. I just watched or rewatched the movie Hackers, the 98 or whenever that movie came out. 94 maybe. And it was just so funny after being such a huge Mr. Robot fan, having watched the series twice, and I know that you were, got a shout-out in it. As we talked about in the last episode, seeing how they portrayed hacking in the movies of that era was just so hilarious. And they’re like flying through the computers, and it’s wild. But I’ve had a couple of follow-up questions from everything that you just said, sticking for a second with the AI I guess. I was talking with Harry Halpin of Nym for another podcast episode we did about AI surveillance, and he was sharing how, in his perspective, one of the concerns about AI is that you have all these different data points, metadata about somebody that normally it might take a person a long time to sift through and be able to piece them all together and what it means. But with AI, the machines will be able to do it that much faster, that much more powerfully. And then you could even take it further, like to factor in, maybe they’ll be able to recognize your face in cameras easier than traditional software or a person might. So what are some of the concerns, if you have any, and I’m assuming you do, around AI in terms of our privacy and security? And then what are some of the creative things that hacktivists would be able to leverage AI to fight back?

[00:09:17] Matt Mitchell: Well, first of all, just talking about this Mr. Robot thing. I just want to say props to this character in Mr. Robot they called Romero. He’s like the old brother. He was kind of hotep and kind of activist, like a Black Panther. And he said something like, I never seen no 3D maze when I’m hacking or whatever, you know, like kind of making fun of those weird depictions like we saw in the movie Hackers, you know. And the brother who played Romero, Ron Cephas Jones, he passed away last year in the in the summertime, you know, and it’s always cool to see the black hackers in the movies. So big, big props to that. And props to the black hacker crew, Wakanda. They’re just like black hackers, for real, for real. But yeah, going into the question about AI and how it affects us, for example, let’s say there’s footage of you walking into a store and buying a bag of chips and walking out of that store, and then you get arrested for theft. Okay, when your public defender, because you don’t have money for a lawyer or whatever, gets access to the tapes. They have access to all the tapes. They have to watch every second of every tape looking for you to show that you paid and you didn’t steal that bag, right? And that takes real time. I mean, you can speed it up a little bit, but when it’s audio, too, that makes it worse because you have to, like, listen.

So it’s the maximum amount of what you could understand. You got to slow it down to that point. It takes hours and hours and hours. On the other side, there’s tools, like there’s a company called Dextro that has a tool that it uses, like basically AI, to do object recognition and turn everything that’s happening into a transcript. First of all, man walks in, looks like he has a mustache, you know, walks over to the counter, grabs a bag of Doritos, and it’s writing all of this stuff out, and then it can search it, like with the speed of like a Google search. And it also you can ask it questions; it can kind of pull back more info. It can do that work in milliseconds that your lawyer is sitting there doing in days looking for. Now imagine throwing AI on top of that. And now you have this already power imbalance right in the justice system, magnified that manyfold, right? And that’s what we’re looking at at the future. And unfortunately, the people who are excited about these technologies do not understand these technologies, their limitations and where they go wrong. You show me an AI, and I’ll show you a problematic racial situation that it’s taking part in, you know, or you show me an AI, and I’ll show you a hallucination, that is the term is called in AI. It’s when it seems correct what it’s saying, but it could not be more wrong.

It’s like the people who wrote it are like, how is it coming up with this? Why is this output coming out? Especially things that are related to chat, right? There are some like things that are generative, that are visual, whether it’s hallucinations. Every time I say, like, you know, put Beyonce on a unicorn, it just shows me a blender. So weird. It keeps making a blender, right? But even more so in chat where it’s text that coming back. That seems correct, right? Because there are people out here using that for everything and lowering that and those mistakes. It’s just part of the technology right now, and it’s too severe and very bad. So when we’re using this technology for things like legal proceedings, for determining sentencing, for determining where to put police officers, it’s a different situation. And now it’ll be like, how can we use AI for public safety to make our communities safer? I don’t know; I think I’d rather have me more comfortable with the human being there who has feelings and has empathy and doesn’t hallucinate, right? So again, just kind of like trying to bring the year in focus. So those are things that like… We look at how a lot of automated tools are being used in the worst ways and amplifying the way surveillance is deployed. And surveillance is the number one thing that we push back against at CryptoHarlem.

[00:12:57] Ray Salmond: You know, to wrap up, looking forward to 2025 and even the rest of this year, what are CryptoHarlem’s plans for the remainder of 2024 and going into 2025?

[00:13:10] Matt Mitchell: Oh well, I got to read up more stuff from Jonathan and Ray. I got to listen to the ‘cast more. You know what I’m saying? Tell people to subscribe. I got to make sure that everyone’s got a non-custodial wallet out there. And when we teach it, we give them money. Because, you know, I’m not expecting my community to suddenly have extra money to put in these things and that they understand how to use it and how to teach others how to use it. You know what I’m saying? If you need to send money back home to Central America or Mexico or whatever, and they’re taking half your dime, well, it doesn’t have to be that way. I remember someone asking me like, wait, so there’s places on the other side. I’m like, oh yeah, these people are masters of how to solve their own problems. You know what I’m saying? Like all marginalized people are experts on. And because we have generational knowledge, there’s another way. If they put barbed wire here, there’s a path by the river. If they block the river, there’s a path over here. Harriet Tubman taught our people that. You know, there’s another way. And so just opening up people’s minds that there is another way. That’s what we’re doing.

So there’s hope, there’s joy, there’s celebration. You don’t need to be stressed. We got this. We’re the ones we’re looking for. You don’t have to wait for some magic person to be spotlighted. That person is you. And we’re going to help you do it. If you want to do it for five minutes a day, no problem. You want to do it all day, even better. Let’s go in a legal and safe way. And so that’s what we’re all about, is just getting people ready. Because trying to protect your house from a fire when it’s on fire, that’s hard. Trying to protect your house in a preventative manner when you know the fire could come, that’s pretty easy. We understand that. You know, it’s like fuel, oxygen, heat. Understand the triangle. Get an extinguisher. Get the fire buddy blanket. You know, whatever you got to do. Get some sprinklers up in here, like get ready, stay ready. Protect yourself. Put the mask on yourself, then put the mask on your child. Look out for your community. Look out for your friends and family. You don’t have to be scared. You can be ready. It’s a better feeling. Come join CryptoHarlem. Let’s go. So that’s what it’s about for 2025.

[00:15:02] Ray Salmond: I love it.

[00:15:03] Jonathan DeYoung: You’re doing in-person events now as well, right?

[00:15:05] Matt Mitchell: We meet every Saturday at 1:00, except for when I was at Hope, when I was like, I can’t do this. It’s too loud and noisy. We do this livestream on Twitch. It’s also like simulcast onto Facebook and YouTube and to X, aka Twitter. But then we meet in person as well. Nowadays, it used to be every month. Now we meet like basically every 3 or 4 months in person. It’s open to the community, it’s welcoming, it’s inclusive. You don’t have to be all teched out. You don’t have to have money. You don’t have to look a certain way. It’s for all people. Sometimes people, they’re like, yo, I really love what y’all are doing, but I just feel kind of like… I’m like, no, this is for everybody. We need everybody. If every single black person in the United States, if I can, like, put on a Cerebro helmet and just command the mines, that’s like what, 15%, 14%, 13% of this country? That’s not enough to win. We need to win. We need everybody to ride for this till the wheels fall off. So, and we make sure that we reach everybody: elders, youngins, everybody, no matter what you look like. Because on the internet, nobody’s got a face. It’s just the energy.

[00:16:07] Ray Salmond: Hey, that’s all facts. I appreciate the positivity, the inspiration, and, you know, it’s needed. Like, me and Jonathan are feeling it right now, so we know that other people are feeling it. So, we thank you for coming on and for the words of encouragement. And we appreciate what you’re doing.

[00:16:23] Matt Mitchell: And yeah, yeah, not to sound all woo-woo and everything, but I believe that love wins in the long run. You know what I’m saying? There’s so many examples in this country and so many examples outside of this country that prove that. So yeah, just love each other, you know what I’m saying? Lean in like, give, say, be like, hey, I know it’s rough. How are you doing today? Oh, I’m good. Yeah, but how are you really doing today? Because everyone’s dealing with something. Whether it’s national events, international events or just personal events, just look out for each other. So appreciate you. You know, you bring people together. Jonathan and Ray, keep doing what you’re doing.

[00:16:54] Jonathan DeYoung: We appreciate you as well. So, it’s a pleasure chatting with you and hearing what you’ve been up to. Just to echo what Ray was saying, I agree that it’s always good to talk to people who are not only putting in the work but who are also inspirational. It’s so easy to just become a doomer in this day and age, especially with all the various crises in the world, and I personally feel like, as well, I need that dose of optimism, hope and encouragement every once in a while. And so it’s been great to chat with you because I feel like I definitely needed that. Go ahead and plug your thing you want to plug.

[00:17:30] Matt Mitchell: Okay. Yeah. Thank you. So, the thing I wanted to plug was we were profiled by PBS. You know, they were late to the party, and there’s an episode of PBS Nova called Secrets In Your Data. And if you ever want to learn more about privacy and data and what you could do, just check out Secrets In Your Data on PBS Nova. It’s on YouTube. It’s on their website. It’s supposed to be free. Hopefully not VPN blocked too much. Second thing is, you know, if you want to roll with us, catch us on the livestream Saturdays at 1 pm on whatever. But Twitch is easiest because you can talk to us. And also, we got a Discord, so jump in the Discord if you ever need anything. I’m in there. We got good people in there, and that’s that. Oh, one last thing. I started a clothing label, and the proceeds go to hacktivists. Not all the proceeds, but a portion of the proceeds cause money to hacktivists is actually hard. It’s hard for them. And the label’s called nonanon.xyz. It’s a website. And we got some, we got some looks there. Okay? So we’re not doing it for the money. We’re expiring — it’s like drops. So we’re expiring stuff. We’re not just trying to make like people wearing 50,000 shirts that look the same and stuff like that. So, yeah, that’s that. Okay. I’m done, done, done with the promo.

[00:18:43] Jonathan DeYoung: Up next is a brief conversation with Tomaž, the co-founder of OriginTrail. Tomaž touched on the importance of building a trust and knowledge foundation to ground AI and ensure that LLMs have access to verifiable data. Tomaž also discussed how OriginTrail is working to create the infrastructure that allows users to manage the privacy of their data and protect intellectual property in the “age of AI.”

[00:19:07] Ray Salmond: When we last spoke in 2023, AI was just making its debut, at least in a consumer sense of it being something that everyone is using. So, it seems like a good time to catch up and see how OriginTrail fits into all of this. So we’re really happy to have you here today, Tomaž. How’s everything going?

[00:19:27] Tomaž Levak: Hey, both of you. Hope you’re having a great week. Thanks for having me back. And it’s I mean, it’s been going well, but it’s been busy as well. Like you mentioned, when we were speaking last, there was… AI was making definitely a fully felt move towards mainstream adoption. And what we’re seeing over the course of the last almost a year is just much more of that. And I believe a lot of the conversations that we’ve had at the time are very, have been very much relevant and proven to be true. So I’m excited to kind of dig a bit deeper into all the interesting things that have been happening, and also some of the more some of the dangers that have also been looming since then.

[00:20:05] Jonathan DeYoung: First of all, we last spoke in September of 2023. So you’ll see that was… I did the math, and I already forgot it. I think it was roughly 9 or 10 months ago because we actually recorded in August and then released it in September. So, let’s just call it a year for the sake of simplicity. So we spoke almost a year ago. You mentioned there have been a lot of changes. Obviously, the AI space has just exponentially exploded in 2024. OriginTrail is on the road, getting closer to releasing a new version or iteration, Version 8, as I understand it. So why don’t you give us sort of a high-level overview of what are some of the exciting or not exciting but some of the things that OriginTrail has been up to, released in the last roughly a year since we spoke?

[00:20:52] Tomaž Levak: Maybe let’s take it from the top. One of the more fundamental things that have happened within OriginTrail ecosystem is that we have the pre-release of a white paper, which is actually capturing a lot of the themes that we were touching upon in our conversation a year ago as well. So we were talking about the importance of how a trusted knowledge foundation is needed for artificial intelligence in order to ground it, in order for AI to have access to knowledge that has verifiability, that is, we are able to check that it hasn’t been tampered with, that has an owner, that has an issuer, that has all these elements that are crucially important when we’re trying to create AI systems that should be released in production. And we’ve actually encapsulated a lot of this importance of this thinking through highlighting the necessity of convergence between crypto, internet and the artificial intelligence. And we really went into explaining the approach of how we can move from things like hallucinations to things like information provenance of how we can move from things like IP infringements, which, by the way, also within the last year have been a major topic, and not only in terms of accessing just anything and everything that’s on the internet but also in terms of large model developers purchasing data from different internet portals.

So it’s a very, very big topic in terms of how are we going to manage privacy of data and protect our international intellectual property in the age of AI, and that convergence of crypto, internet and the artificial intelligence promises to address that effectively. So these things are very, very big problems, even as big as the kind of advancement of the field of artificial intelligence itself, because it’s also reaching certain limitations because we are having a lot of AI-generated content online. Again, from a year ago to today, it’s been a huge, huge boost. And sooner or very soon we’ll have more AI-generated content than we’ll have non-AI-generated content available, which means that the models themselves will learn, or they’ll get learning done on the back of the data that was created by the models themselves, which means that they are going to kind of come into a difficult situation because they’ll start to plateau and then also potentially collapse the model itself. So again, here, something like this convergence where we would have this trusted knowledge foundation can very effectively address that by creating incentives for introduction of new knowledge of new data into the system.

So we’ve described that through a framework called the decentralized retrieval-augmented generation. So that’s a retrieval-augmented generation within the last year in the AI space was something that has blown up very much because it just basically allows the model, the large language model, let’s say, to use an external source. So that’s why it’s called retrieval-augmented because it goes out of itself and finds an information and then uses it to construct the response. With the Decentralized Knowledge Graph and OriginTrail, we’re taking this to another level because it’s not only just your external source, but it’s actually a Decentralized Knowledge Graph that allows you to tap into a multitude of different knowledge and data that’s available there. So there’s been, again, a topic that very precisely addresses these big problems of artificial intelligence as a whole. And what it promises is not only to kind of bring crypto to mainstream adoption by using artificial intelligence but it also unlocks artificial intelligence’s true potential. So, yeah, I think the white paper was one important piece that was issued within this last year. But then there was a lot of other adoption that was happening, which I think it’s also something that’s worthwhile mentioning. OriginTrail broke into another vertical, into another industry, which received a lot of attention over the course of last year.

So we’ve seen wheels falling off the planes and kind of like doors getting knocked out and stuff like that, which isn’t an ideal situation by no means. And actually, OriginTrail is kind of fixing this Boeing situation, quote-unquote, by introducing again this trusted knowledge foundation for different inputs on how not planes were only made, but also how were they maintained and the entire industry receiving a flexible and scalable solution to address that. Again, with the possibility of AI coming in and highlighting the things that should be highlighted and kind of focused on, and finding the outliers that could be dangerous in different situations. So again, using AI really for good by giving it that grounding in the Decentralized Knowledge Graph that OriginTrail provides. And another update that was happening there was we saw OriginTrail not only be deployed on Polkadot’s NeuroWeb but also reach different other blockchains, the first one being Gnosis. And just recently, also OriginTrail got based, or based AI came to the Base blockchain, which is one of the fastest growing in terms of users ecosystems in the Web3 space, and we’re excited to bring that trusted AI capabilities to them as well.

[00:26:07] Ray Salmond: Okay, so the other day, we were chatting with a well-known hacker, Jonathan and I, for this podcast, right? And he mentioned that one of his concerns with widespread AI integration is the tendency for the AI to hallucinate. And he went through some kind of, like, worst-case scenarios of how AI hallucinations could be problematic with, like, law enforcement, script writing, so on and so forth, right? And I know we spoke about this the last time we talked, too. So, has there been any progress on addressing this issue? Any new developments? Have your opinions changed? How does OriginTrail kind of address this issue?

[00:26:49] Tomaž Levak: Yeah, no, I think hallucinations have been, if anything, from a year ago, now they’re better understood. So I think there’s an appreciation, growing appreciation for what technology really can do. The artificial intelligence, when we’re talking about the generative AI, it’s a probabilistic system. So it’s a very good system to figure out what would be the next best word to put out. And it’s very good at putting these words together. It’s almost like your right-hand side of the brain. So, it has that creative element of putting this probabilistic outputs out. But if we rely solely, if we rely solely on the probabilistic systems for deterministic answers, they’re bound to fail. So, in a way, every output is a hallucination. We just call it a hallucination because it’s an unwanted generation, but anything is generated. It’s just a matter maybe also something that, for you, is a hallucination, for me is a wanted response because I was looking for a mistake or I was looking to trigger it into something creative. So the important way of addressing that is having explainability and reliability for AI systems and what, how we get that, we get that with the decentralized retrieval-augmented generation. We get that by connecting LLMs or different AI models. So they could be video, they could text video, that could be text to voice or whatever.

We connect them with reliable external sources, which is the Decentralized Knowledge Graph. And the DKG is great because it so neatly organizes this knowledge in knowledge assets that allows connections, allows ontologies, so allows the semantic explainability that it actually plays a role of left-hand side of the brain in this system. So, it provides you this structured, objective, deterministic inputs. And when you pair them with this probabilistic system of LLM, which is creative and can reason. And when you create multiple loops of that, you can very much limit what you would consider a hallucination because you will have a reliable and predictable system, not in terms of word for word, but in terms of what will it, what are its boundaries within which it operates. So you are dramatically lowering the chance for an unwanted generation to to happen, which in any production system, it doesn’t have to be even law enforcement, it could be trivial things, you know, like friendly chatbot, you have to bank out like the deviances which can, or pathologies that can exist within such things, right? So you need that type of reliability to happen. Otherwise, you can have a very, very wild system, purely probabilistic. And the system is just the way it was created that’s not going to turn out for the best.

[00:29:25] Jonathan DeYoung: One thing I think that we haven’t touched on yet is this idea of an Edge Node, which is another new thing that has come out since we last spoke. So you did a demonstration recently about how this works, or not you specifically, but OriginTrail had a visual demonstration about how this works, and I was very pleasantly intrigued, let me put it that way, by sort of the potential and power of this. So, could you sort of briefly explain what an Edge Node is and then, in practical purposes, what you’ll be able to do with it as like a regular consumer?

[00:30:02] Tomaž Levak: Sure, man, I was on that call. So, you know, I was involved in.

[00:30:07] Jonathan DeYoung: Yes. Yes, you were.

[00:30:08] Tomaž Levak: But thank you for the segue. We’re now kind of looking a little bit more towards the future. So we were covering stuff that actually has been within this year achieved. Now, with the Edge Nodes, they’re really the future because this is what we’re looking at as the release of the Version 8 of the Decentralized Knowledge Graph. So we are now jumping from V6 to V8 within this year. And what you saw there in the demo is indeed an introduction to Edge Node, which follows a premise that if the Decentralized Knowledge Graph is to be achieving that convergence with internet and artificial intelligence, we need to create it in a way that we are supporting any user on any device, on any chain as well. So there shouldn’t be really limitations to that. And why is that important? Because a lot of things are happening on the edge, and you’re thinking, what constitutes as an edge of the network? It could be many, many different things like wearables, which were mentioning before, or your iPhone or your Android phone or your desktop computer or your… So things, your TV, your fridge, your microwave, all these things can be connected to the internet, but they lie on the edge of that internet. They’re not really relays across other parts of the internet. However, they’re very important for implementing the solutions which need privacy. So if your fridge is connected to the internet and you would like to use AI capabilities, which partly needs to consist of the public knowledge but partly also like rely on what’s in your fridge because maybe your fridge now knows that.

But and you want to keep that confidential, you don’t want to share that, then you need a way to really bridge those two parts, the public and the private and allow for an AI model, maybe a smaller model, a tailored model, a niche model to function on the device itself. And what we saw in the demo, what Branimir was doing is he took his data from a wearable, from the Oura Ring, and he introduced it into an Edge Node. And then we saw that we had a locally deployed AI model, which, before he added this data, he couldn’t, or it wasn’t able to respond to questions like your personalization suggestions because it didn’t have personal data. But as he uploaded the data from the ring onto the Edge Node, then the AI system knew because it was using what we were talking about before, the decentralized retrieval-augmented generation to access the private part of data that was lying on the Edge Node itself. It connected it with what was publicly available on the Decentralized Knowledge Graph and then combined everything to produce high-quality responses, which included how to improve your sleeping pattern based on the readings from Oura Ring. But that was just one example. So the point is not just wearables. The point is edge. So anything on the edge is able to fall into this category. We are addressing one of the biggest pains of the last of the last year, which is privacy. And that’s not limited to individuals. It’s the same with organizations. So companies which they would like to tap into AI, but they’re having a hard time trusting their data, just putting it in, let’s say, something like ChatGPT, that’s, you know, OpenAI or just putting it into Google’s Gemini.

They have considerations about that. What the Edge Node allows them to do is keep their data safe within their environment, connect it to relevant parts of the public network, and then run freedom of choice when it comes to AI, run local AI or connect it to your hosted AI that you have with your infrastructure provider, or even use public like if that makes sense, but the entirety of the data doesn’t get copied in somewhere. Just the relevant parts get picked up, and then they are introduced as context towards the artificial intelligence model. So edge is hugely, hugely impactful. It’s internet scale. It’s, I guess, the best description. It’s wherever the internet touches, how far it goes. That’s where Edge Node should be able to live. There’s going to be much more scalability that gets unlocked through the Edge Nodes and through other scalability improvements with Version 8. And they need to, right? So it’s not just scalability for scalability sake. If you try to imagine that future, the needs that get created by that future because benefits are there. So like, they’re too attractive not to happen to have AI enhance our everyday life in so many different ways as people and as organizations, as companies, as public offices. So that’s going to happen one way or the other. It’s better if it happens in a way that it’s safe and reliable. And that’s why we need that scale to support that value creation that’s bound to come.

[00:34:54] Jonathan DeYoung: That all sounds like very, it sounds very ambitious. Let me put it that way. And, like, there’s a lot coming up on the agenda and the roadmap — agenda, no pun intended — and the roadmap for the remainder of the year and possibly into 2025. So, is there anything that we haven’t covered that you guys are excited about going into the next year or so?

[00:35:18] Tomaž Levak: I think we mentioned the most important topics, and everything else is, in a way, working to support that ambition. I know you said it’s ambitious, but it’s our very, very strong belief that this convergence is not just nice to have; it’s must-have. As a society, we need that. We need that convergence of crypto, artificial intelligence and internet. Because again, the unhappy path really isn’t isn’t ideal here. So we need those things to сonverge together and allow for these value propositions that we were kind of covering to happen. And all of our thinking stems from that. The requirement for internet-scale stems from that. If the premise, the core premise, is pretty simple, that AI is going to be so impactful, and if we want to have it in ways that is usable in a mainstream way and that it’s safe to use by huge amounts of population globally, then we need to have those elements available everywhere. And that’s where the ambition is coming from. So it’s not something that’s kind of pursuing something just because we like it or because, you know, bigger numbers are better. It’s not. It’s because we’re trying to get to the impact that we believe we need to.

And that is almost a responsibility of the entire Web3 sector to bring this to the table because that’s literally what we, I believe the majority of us joined the whole movement from, from the get-go, right when we designed things that are upcoming in the next year, like V8, this is at the forefront of the thinking is how do we enable that? How do we enable privacy? How do we protect people’s data or organizational data? So I’m excited about all those things coming. There’s a ton of adoption that’s coming that I can’t go into too much details about. But yeah, as long as you guys follow, you’ll see all of these things coming to fruition. Also, things that are outside of our direct involvement that are happening. And yeah, I’m excited. I welcome everyone to join us in our community. And it’s a very, very good time to be interested in the topics that we covered in our updated conversation. And I’m looking forward to what’s going to be the next one when we have.

[00:37:23] Jonathan DeYoung: Just to remind people, where can they follow OriginTrail or get involved?

[00:37:27] Tomaž Levak: Yeah. So, you can find us on X. So it’s going to be @Origin_Trail. If you look for that, you’re going to find us there. You can also go to the website and find the links to Telegram chat or Discord chats or whatever kind of tickles your fancy. Well be there to hang out. And yeah, like join the conversations, build things, contribute things. Yeah, there’s so many different ways of how to get how to get involved. So I’m sure that you’ll find what best floats your boat.

[00:37:53] Jonathan DeYoung: Thank you for taking the time to chat with us to catch up with us. We very much appreciate it, and it’s been exciting to hear about all of the exciting things that OriginTrail has been up to since we last spoke.

[00:38:04] Tomaž Levak: Thanks again for having me.

[00:38:05] Ray Salmond: To wrap up the episode, we spoke to Joshua Dávila, ie.. the Blockchain Socialist and author of Blockchain Radicals: How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It. We asked Joshua about the book launch and its reception by the blockchain community and whether his views had changed or if any of the predictions he forecast came true. We also briefly dove into the increasing role that politics and Wall Street are playing in the crypto industry and whether there are certain elements of mainstream adoption that crypto pundits should be wary of. 

[00:38:38] Ray Salmond: Joshua, we’re happy to have you back today, and we’re looking forward to hearing about your views and observations over the past year.

[00:38:46] Joshua Dávila: Cool. Yeah, thanks for having me. I have plenty of views and observations to share if you’ll have them.

[00:38:51] Ray Salmond: Fantastic. I think I’ll turn it over to Jonathan and let him chase after the first question.

[00:38:56] Jonathan DeYoung: Sure. So, I mean, the first question is probably less about your specific political views and those observations but more an observation of how your book went. So it’s been, I think, just about a year since your book has been out. Now, I know you’ve done some reading groups. You have an audio version of the book that came out, so just in general, I mean, first-time book author, as far as I’m aware. How has the reception to your book been?

[00:39:22] Joshua Dávila: I mean, generally, the reception has been quite good as far as I can tell. I don’t know the exact numbers of how many copies I sold or whatever else, but whenever I go to any crypto conference, which I’ve been to like an ungodly amount now, this year, I always get like a box or two of books. I always ship them over to wherever the conference is happening, and I sell all the copies. So it’s been a pretty easy one to sell in person. You know, I may be a socialist, but I’m a hustler. I can sell. I can sell in-person books. But, yeah, I think what’s been interesting, what I’ve noticed is that the book has gotten a lot of attention, I think, from kind of the more, I’d say, a mix of, like, the intellectual class and developers in the crypto space. I think that when you are a creator of some sort of application or big protocol or whatever else in the crypto space, or I mean, in software development, generally, a lot of people who are building it are interested in what are the implications of what they’re building and wanting to understand, you know, the socio-politics of that. You know, not everyone may agree with kind of like socialism on the surface or whatever else, but I have found that a lot of people who actually work in the crypto space are very interested in that perspective, which is maybe different than what you would expect if you’re only paying attention to kind of like the figureheads of crypto, who, of course, are generally much more like conservative libertarian-leaning.

[00:40:53] Jonathan DeYoung: It’s actually interesting you mentioned the difference between meeting real people on the ground who are building in crypto versus the figureheads because I definitely had that same experience going to Consensus in Austin. I met a lot of great people genuinely looking for ways to use technology to empower people. At the same time, you know, I come back, and just a few weeks later, we have Ryan Selkis, who’s been — who is no longer involved with his company after doing kind of a rant on immigrants and the election and Civil War. And I won’t dive too deep into that myself. But how do you feel just in general about crypto, and it seems like Bitcoin, in particular, becoming such a hotly politicized issue this election cycle? Like, I feel like a lot of people think that crypto and Bitcoin, that there is this large mass of people who are single-issue voters who will sweep out existing candidates if they’re not pro-crypto and pro-Bitcoin. But I sort of feel like, similar to your point earlier, that’s a narrative that’s being propped up by people on Twitter, and I don’t really believe it myself. So, I’m just wondering your thoughts on all this.

[00:42:11] Joshua Dávila: Yeah. I mean, first, I would say that I think it aligns with the kind of thesis generally that I’ve been having is that probably, whether for better or for worse, crypto is going to become more politically relevant. Of course, how that relevancy is manifested, I think, is maybe being perceived differently by different people depending on where they are in the space. Of course, if you are the CEO of a giant crypto VC, then you probably think that everyone cares about this, and everybody you know is going to not vote for you if you’re not pro-crypto. But, yeah, generally, I think that probably the average person does not really care about the crypto policy of a particular politician and presidential candidate. On average, I think we just hear it a lot more because we’re all involved in or, you know, somewhat involved in Crypto Twitter to some degree. But I think what it shows is more so the growing financial power of crypto. I think there is probably something to say for already existing tech elites being entangled, in particular, in American politics in who they’re funding, who they’re donating to and whatever else, and perhaps crypto being some part or aspect of their investment portfolio to some degree.

Maybe that is a reason why certain politicians are like, are willing to be influenced by crypto because then they can piece their donors or potential donors. That’s like more of my read of it. It’s not really a matter of getting people on their side because of crypto per se, but more so about getting the money from the tech space into their campaign so that they can pay for that campaign, essentially because of how the American political system works. Unfortunately, I think the whole like Democrats are like super anti-crypto is like a little bit overblown or like kind of pretty, very overblown. And there are plenty of Democrats who are like into crypto anyways. Like it’s not like… Sure, there’s Elizabeth Warren, who’s like expressed pretty negative thoughts and whatever else, but like, besides that, I’ve never heard Bernie Sanders say a single thing about crypto. You know, these are not real issues for like the regular person that they like, care about every day. Not to say that it’s not important to some degree, but it’s more like a secondary type of issue to be thinking about at the moment, in my view.

[00:44:37] Ray Salmond: Yeah, I think that’s a fair response. I appreciate that perspective. And as someone who works in media, both Jonathan and I, headlines are trendy. Clickbait headlines bring views. All major media outlets, Anything that’s trendy, they’re going to cover it, right? And the combination of a politician’s policy stance on economics or crypto or basically anything that these candidates say is going to pick up news, and it’s newsworthy. Hence, the crypto angle gaining some traction. And then a part of me is like, Trump and Kamala have to do the exact same thing. Like it’s going to be a close election. They all need as many votes as possible. I think the fact that they’re talking about crypto kind of proves that all votes cannot be ignored and must be chased after, but then, at the same time, I agree with you that the fact that crypto is having some mentions on the wider stage like this does show that it’s, you know, the industry is kind of increasing its relevance in all things American politics and so on and so forth. So I wonder, since you were talking about finance, I wonder what are your views on the Bitcoin and Ethereum spot ETFs and kind of Wall Street’s embrace of crypto via these ETFs? How does that kind of impact blockchain’s kind of like original purpose and ideological roots?

[00:45:07] Joshua Dávila: I mean, for me, it’s a representation of what capitalism generally always does in like these towards these successful, alternative-ish movements, which is to co-opt them. And this is like, it’s even easier to co-opt if you are like an explicitly financial technology in many ways. So you have this clear debate within the crypto world of like existing to fight the system as this radical new tool versus we need to be mainstream, adopted, and become part of everyday life in some way. And these things are like contradictory to each other, clearly in ways. And so, like, it should be no surprise that this happens in the sense that, like, capital is always looking for new markets to do capitalism in and by providing this legal, essentially legal wrapper structure around cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ether and the ETF. Then, you open the floodgates to all this new capital to come in through all these different funds that would invest in this ETF. And so, to someone who is doing crypto or investing in crypto as like a way to make money, then this is fantastic.

If you are like a radical punk, if you’re like original cypherpunk and your intention was to really replace the banks through this, I think it shows that the way that these things were structured, as it were, was not necessarily in direct conflict with the financial system. And so we just have to contend with that. And the reason I think that is because, like a lot of crypto kind of tries to ignore the politics. Like, of course, you have like a section of people who are a bit political who are like cypherpunks, really into privacy or whatever else. But the place where in crypto you don’t see nearly as much political activity is like through the framework of just being critical of capitalism and just being aware of how you will be co-opted in these things. So yeah, so I mean,  to me, it’s not necessarily something to celebrate or something like that, but I’m sure it will make some people, it will potentially make people that at least they believe that it will make them wealthier.

[00:48:34] Jonathan DeYoung: So, one of the other things that has perhaps changed a bit since we last spoke, or maybe it’s just in my mind, it’s psychological, but it feels like the level of crisis and conflict in the world continues to ramp up. From obvious political violence here in America to you’ve got Israel’s war in Gaza, got Russia’s war in Ukraine, Sudan. There’s all these crises that are going on around the world, some of which aren’t even being talked about by many people. China threatening to invade Taiwan. And do you feel that sort of in a time of crisis, there is a role for blockchain and for crypto. Is that just fantasy thinking? Is it really that, like, people need to get their stuff figured out in the real world before blockchain can come and help people? Or is there a positive sort of force for good in times where people feel kind of scared or nervous about the state of the world that blockchain can play?

[00:49:40] Joshua Dávila: Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely context-specific on which crisis is, you know, exactly going on. Of course, I think if the crisis is the internet went down, then, you know, crypto becomes a very difficult tool to use for a lot of people in that situation. But of course, there are plenty of recent examples of kind of like ongoing crises like in Argentina or different places in Latin America, in Turkey or other countries that experience inflation, high inflation, or have very strong capital controls in one way or another, where a lot of people begin to adopt the use of cryptocurrencies. I think in a lot of those cases, of course, one can argue that the crisis itself is a political one. It’s always a political crisis. It’s a matter of just like not being able to govern a country’s resources very well or like just governance in general. And so then, you know, crypto is kind of like, it ends up being this kind of like Band-Aid, but it is like a Band-Aid that I can’t criticize someone for using or whatever else. But then I do think there is this, like, very large, unexplored space of the use of crypto and blockchains for the creation of infrastructure in preparation for crises or something like that, the creation of new institutions that are better able to solve the problems of people than the current ones are able to do because they’re always in crisis.

I think that’s a very, very underexplored space. That’s really interesting. I mean, they’re kind of like hints of these things. Like in my book, I wrote about Hic Et Nunc, which is like this NFT platform on Tezos back in the day, where the guy who was running it just kind of like stopped running it. He didn’t want to do it anymore. And then everyone thought they lost their NFTs. But actually, lo and behold, they were all on the blockchain, and everyone was able to create their own front end for this new platform. So that’s like in itself is like, you know, not that it’s meaningless, but it’s like small in comparison to like a giant political crisis. But I think it shows like a seed of thinking in this type of way of, like, what are things that we would like to be stored securely through decentralized infrastructure that can always be pulled up, even if a certain crisis happens that can help us do this and that. To me, that’s what’s much, much more interesting. Can we create like a vote amongst a polity of people that is like cryptographically secured, that has some amount of legitimacy, that sends real assets to a particular place to make something happen? That I think, is like what’s the super interesting stuff is.

[00:52:20] Jonathan DeYoung: So it feels like a perfect segue into talking about Breadchain, which is a project that I know that you are involved in building, and I believe, is Larry from LaborDAO involved in that also? If you’re listening to this episode, you will have heard his checkup already because I think he’ll be coming before you. But yeah. So what exactly is Breadchain?

[00:52:43] Joshua Dávila: Yeah. So Breadchain Cooperative is essentially a federation of politically aligned projects. So we use kind of like this framework of post-capitalism that we want to move beyond the current confines of the political economy and make something different, something that is more democratic, more egalitarian. But it came from this question of, like, how do we build infrastructure for ourselves and how do we fund it without having to take things like venture capital or other types of investment where we would end up being subsumed and co-opted by the political economy that ultimately we’re against. I like to think of it as this main infrastructure that we’re building as a mix between a credit union and a local currency. So in many of these like underserved communities or like in specific industries that don’t have financial services, it happens historically where everyone creates a credit union to pool all of their capital together. So what little money that they have, they put into like this like hyperlocalized bank. And that is used as a way to funnel investments locally to build up local economy versus like if you have something like Bank of America or like one of these giant banks as like the main branch in like your little community, is that they take the money and they’re going to invest in their preferred customer is other large corporates.

So the money is basically being funneled out of the community. The idea is that the application that we made is called the Crowdstaking application. So essentially, you give xDai, which is the native token on Gnosis Chain. And as a user, when you do that, you receive back BREAD tokens 1 to 1. So, 1 BREAD is equal to 1 xDai, which is equal to $1. So, BREAD is basically like a dollar. What’s happening in the background in the contract is that the xDai is being converted to sDai, which is the Dai savings rate, and that’s generating a yield. So, depending on the Dai savings rates, we’ll receive more or less yield through that. And then every month, we have a vote where people who hold BREAD, based on their voting power — so voting power being calculated by the amount of BREAD that they’ve held over the previous 30 days — they’re able to choose or vote on how they want to allocate the funds that are being generated through sDai amongst the various projects within Breadchain. So it’s kind of like, it’s like a credit union where you’re able to actually vote on what the credit union is investing in, to a degree. It’s not so much of an investment as far as like we’re not giving out loans, we’re just simply like, we’re making yield, and then we’re giving that to the projects that are part of the network. But it’s like fairly similar.

So yeah, we recently did our first voting cycle. So, the next voting cycle is ending pretty soon. But we did our first one, and everything went super smoothly. Everything went well. All the money that was generated, you know, to be distributed, was distributed to all the projects, and it was like a success. So now we’re in the process of building out a couple more features, scaling up a bit. We want to integrate into Gnosis Pay, which is this debit card that is linked to a Safe account that’s available in Europe and other countries. I don’t think it’s in the US, but then we’ll be able to make a way for people to spend their BREAD with their debit card. So yeah, that’s kind of like our whole thing. And the idea is to onboard more and more projects that are aligned with our political vision of post-capitalism. And then we can, you know, we have this credit union then that we all kind of buy into, and their network, and communities, and supporters also buy into that then can help funnel to fund all these projects.

[00:56:31] Ray Salmond: Our final question, what are you most optimistic and excited about as 2024 begins to come to a close? And what are you, what’s your vision for 2025?

[00:56:43] Joshua Dávila: You mean like a personal vision or just like what I hope to see generally?

[00:56:48] Ray Salmond: A personal vision or maybe your viewpoint, goals and hopes from a socialist perspective on what you see happening in blockchain and the blockchain community that’s encouraging. And maybe some kind of like dreams that you have that you hope would kind of begin to play out in 2025.

[00:57:10] Joshua Dávila: I have, I think what makes me somewhat optimistic is based on kind of like the pessimism of others in the sense that, like, I think a lot of people have had their, have had this, like, I think, very necessary maturation process of expecting certain things to pan out in the crypto space that haven’t. Plenty of reasons, I believe, as to why a lot of those things didn’t pan out, especially around DAOs, especially around how exactly radical is crypto really, that I think will push people into really needing to embrace if they want this crypto stuff to finally work out, then I think it means that they will have to embrace the idea that we have to build the institutions ourselves, and we have to build something better than what already exists. That isn’t purely a game of speculative capital, and that if we actually choose to deny this tendency in crypto to solely be focused on profits and solely to be focused on individual gain, only then are we able to actually build something that any bit resembles the things that we were hoping for crypto to be when we were first getting involved with it. So I think that’s something that we’ll start to see more and more, and that means, I think, more people embracing the politics a bit more in a hopefully like not in a like messed up way, not in a like, you know, going full MAGA or whatever.

[00:58:48] Ray Salmond: No, I see what you’re saying, Like, people are more mature, they’re more knowledgeable. They have a better understanding of how VC culture and fintech, and startup culture operates versus whatever their personal ideology or aspirations are on the tech side. And because they’re wiser, I think what you’re saying is that people will, as a result of that knowledge, now be more intentional, more direct about what they want, more intentional about what they build more, more focused on, like making sure that what they build aligns with what the mission statement is, and finding like-minded partners to work with them in that space. It’s maturity. I think that’s kind of what you’re saying.

[00:59:28] Joshua Dávila: Yeah, yeah. I’m excited for the maturity.

[00:59:32] Ray Salmond: Joshua, that was a fantastic conversation. We thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights and perspectives and kind of visions on where the crypto space is going to go in 2025. The main takeaway for me, I think, is that people should stay inspired.

[00:59:49] Jonathan DeYoung: And I think that also to just expand on that, staying inspired doesn’t have to mean that that whichever presidential candidate you’re voting for, at least here in the US, is pro-crypto or isn’t pro-crypto, or what their policies are, that there is plenty of other opportunities to build the world that you want to see on an application layer as a developer in your community. And, yeah, not just relying on politicians to enact the vision of the future that you want to see.

[01:00:20] Joshua Dávila: Yeah, sure. Well said.

[01:00:22] Jonathan DeYoung: So, thank you. And I assume your book is still available to purchase. Is that just on your website?

[01:00:26] Joshua Dávila: Yeah. There’s a link on my website as well. There’s also, it’s available online in most places. If you just look up Blockchain Radicals, you should find a place where you can buy it.

[01:00:44] Ray Salmond: The Agenda is hosted and produced by me, Ray Salmond and.

[01:00:48] Jonathan DeYoung: And by me, Jonathan DeYoung. You can listen and subscribe to The Agenda at cointelegraph/podcasts.com or on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and wherever else podcasts are found.

[01:00:59] Ray Salmond: If you enjoyed what you heard, rate us and leave a review. You can find me on Twitter at @HorusHughes, H O R U S H U G H E S.

[01:01:09] Jonathan DeYoung: And I’m on Twitter, Instagram, and just about everywhere else at @maddopemadic. That’s M-A-D-D-O-P-E-M-A-D-I-C.

[01:01:19] Ray Salmond: Be sure to follow Cointelegraph on Twitter and Instagram at @Cointelegraph.

This podcast episode transcription was generated with the assistance of artificial intelligence (AI) technology. While we strive for accuracy, please be aware that AI-generated transcriptions may contain errors or inaccuracies.