Fertility and Pregnancy Grief and Loss

This week Julie Marchetti joins Christie on the couch to discuss the highs and lows of women’s fertility and pregnancy journeys. Julie is a qualified Clinical Reflexologist who is a passionate advocate and support for women with their hormone health and well-being.

Julie is passionate and empowering. This is a deeply emotive and informative episode that covers infertility loss, miscarriage, stillbirth and infant loss. Julie also shares her personal experience and grief and loss from both a parent and  grandparents perspective.  

Find out more about Julies amazing work by visiting:
https://www.geraldtonreflexology.com.au 

Transcript

Welcome back to the Grief Ocean Podcast. This week I am delighted to introduce a very special guest who supports women and couples through their fertility journey, where sadly for many grief and loss exists. Julie Machete is a Fertility Educator and Hormone Reflexologist. Julie, thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you for inviting me.

Julie, could you please tell our listeners what led you to the work that you do supporting women's health well being  and their fertility journey?

So interestingly, I didn't start out thinking that I would work in this area. I started my journey with reflexology because my father was diagnosed with a terminal grade fourr glioblastoma. So from diagnosis to death was less than six months. And when he was palliative at home, he was given reflexology and he almost was pain free for a short time afterwards and his headaches were horrendous. And I just thought because I'm married to a carpet layers, and I learned massage many years ago for him and my children who were blessed for weekly massages. But I thought this was a glorified foot massage. So I tried to replicate it on my dad, and it didn't work. The pain didn't go away. The sense of touch was still there, but not the pain. So that fascinated me and began my journey and living in Geraldton it was actually really challenging to study. I studied for nearly 18 months with a local lady and unfortunately, it didn't give me a professional qualification, which I found out after I tried to volunteer with the Cancer Council. And that completely devastated me because to me, I was giving back for my father. And I was told that my qualifications weren't enough. 

So my journey then to become a professional reflexologist was set. I managed to move forward to become a professional reflexologist but the first area that I chose to do a post grad in was maternity and that required me going to Sydney and Melbourne to study under a midwife who now has a doctorate in midwifery. And she was very passionate that we had to understand birth and a small touching part of hormones, but mainly the birth. And for me, I now can recognize I was actually healing my own birth journeys. I had three pregnancies, but I had three problematic pregnancies and I very early in my first recognized how lucky I was to actually walk out of the hospital with a baby. 

My second I also was lucky to walk out and my third I had a feeling that something was going wrong. I had no idea what so when it turned out to be me and not my baby. I was over the moon. But I ended up having a massive staph infection that required 11 operations to eventually repair and I lost the ability to be the mother I chose because I couldn't feed my child, couldn't hold her. I spent most of the six months of the first six months of her life in hospital. So I always said people are headed before, during and after. So I didn't work out with my children. But only just so that me moving into the maternity meant that I was starting to heal my own processes and doing that for a while, I recognized that I needed to learn more. So I couldn't study anymore in Australia. So I began studying or looking externally in the world. And I started studying through the UK and I became a reproductive reflexologist and that was completely working the hormones. And that opened up the journey of preconception. And then that opened up the journey of miscarriage, because with every positive, there will be a negative. But what I realized many years into this is back in my day, my eldest is 32 Coming up 33 We didn't really go to the doctor till we were nearly missing the second pregnancy ah second period. And about a week before I thought yep, this easy. Yep, yep, I'm pregnant. I got what I call the period from hell. And it was horrendous and I can remember this ripping feeling in my stomach. I can remember just sitting on the toilet wondering what more could come out of me but at no point did I ever think that I probably was miscarrying,  Because no one talked about it. My mum had five children twins. She had four perfectly normal pregnancies and five children from them. No one I knew had a miscarriage. So I just knew that I had the period from hell. And then when I look back and reflect now, it was probably a month of my cycle coming back, and then the following month I've fallen pregnant and my mum tried to buy me nappies or would have been about 12/13 weeks pregnant and I was down in Perth. And it was good old cloth nappies. So we're in big W or some shop . And I had a full on screaming match with her because I said to her, don't buy me anything until I'm really pregnant. And she said, Well, what are you now and I'm like I'm not really pregnant yet. And I can only assume that was the part of my brain that was protecting me. In case it happened again. But at no point did I ever think miscarriage. It was just a period from hell. But now with the knowledge I have, I can understand what that probably was. And it's probably been a protection method for me. So this then that I was opening up wounds for myself, but in working with others, I began to understand and heal. Each of my pregnancies. I was that person that would pester the midwives until they could explain why. Post my first child I developed preeclampsia at 26 weeks and I was bed bound until she was born and I had dates that I had to get to to bring home a live child. I had her in Geraldton because we couldn't be flown out. I couldn't be flying through the altitudes but I will never forget having the humid crip coming to the lift and knowing that they were trying to save me and it was a decision that my husband had to make. She has one day off preterm. So I did have this preterm one day or full time I should say, I did have this preterm baby and it was a general because they could not do anything else. So I woke up one thinking I had a boy and being presented a girl and two she smelt a baby powder. And I was just like, I've missed all of this bit. Are you sure this is my baby? And so yeah, this trauma definitely had an impact. So this is then when I recognize that I now with reproductive reflexology moving into maternity was able to work with women on a different level. Because I now had some knowledge behind me. But I also had some understanding. And one thing I decided very early, and I suppose it comes with having your own practice is always going to be real.

Yeah. And one of the things that that really gets me with you is you are so real and I've been privileged to work with people that you've also worked with who have said you were just so real and it's just so helpful through this journey because it's scary. It's overwhelming that that that feeling so I guess it's understanding. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Yeah, so that kind of is where that that journey started and how it continues. And the day I lose that ability to have empathy and I may not have walked all the journey, but skirted the edges of many journeys, and opportunities of others to me as successful is you walking out with your bags, however whatever. It doesn't count because it's it's a story. And for the women who don't walk out with their baby, to have that empathy to begin to understand the level of pain that you can, which is nowhere near what they can, but to start to give them a place where they can feel safe to talk about it. And to be heard, because no one wants to tell them.

Yeah, absolutely. Wow, that's just incredible and I think it really highlights where you're so passionate and you sleep. Women feel that and feel safe with you. So thank you so much for the work you do I just have to say thank you. I know its only early but thank you for the work you do.

One of the things that I found very important for me because I'm a knowledge person I want to know why. Even though my work can be considered quite hippy, inverted commas. I am very science back I want to know why I want to know how come after my classical caesarean which gave me a beautiful 300 Odd staples. I wanted to know why, how come and I pushed and pushed and pushed the midwives for them to get a training video up. So I could watch it. And then I could understand and that's been led to my verymuch further down. Trying to help women understand we may not have all the answers, but if you can start to go, okay, it wasn't me. Because we've ticked off this and this and this, then you start to go on not that broken. 

Yeah, I agree. Knowledge is power and especially I think in the space where you work. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. So, over the last few weeks, we have been speaking about the grief associated with miscarriage, which I do want to talk more to, but I guess I think there's obviously very much grief and loss associated with fertility journey. Would you agree?

Incredibly, so these women who are on this utility journey, are grieving every single month they're grieving the loss of the future. They're grieving the loss of a mother, they're grieving the time bomb of the maternal, you know, reminders that you're aging. Theyre grieving theier ability, I always say one of the hardest things I'll do is walk in into my clinic, they're grieving the spontaneity of falling pregnant and just going woohoo we did it in your kitchen. Not not with me going down cycle day 16 worked. You know, it's the grieving that just that anonymity and normality I can never say that. Just that it's not personal anymore, too much public.

And I think we spoke about, you know, disenfranchised grief and the grief that we're not really we're often it's it's dismissed or it's unknown for many who don't know who's worth walking that journey and what that feels for them. And for a lot of people I know it's a choice like to do to do this privately because it's very, it's very hard and it's up and down and each week is different, but in saying that they're losing the support system or they're not necessarily getting the support that that can come with other grief I guess that's recognized. So I think the work that you do is even more incredible.

Often, I'm the only one that knows what they're doing. Yes, the journey. I listened to your previous podcasts, which were amazing. And I did sort of say to myself, you know, when we talk about the 12 week rule, you know, you're falling pregnant in this 12 week rule. I really give girls two sides to that story. You know, 12 weeks is where because every every couple has to feel safe. That at the same time I always say tell the people who you want to know if the worst thing happened, because being alone at that time is the hardest thing. 

Probably not this business practice but I will answer the phone at all hours because I have had phone calls from girls that have realized they're pregnant at 1130 at night and no one to talk to because hubbies on the mine or what have you. And I've also answered phone calls of girls and they've gone to the toilet and they've released a pregnancy and they don't know who to talk to. I've talked to girls that have left the hospital absolutely shattered because miscarriage can be quite systematic. You go home, you do this, you do this, you do this, you do this and it's done. So it is very it's very challenging. And as I say it's probably not best business practice, but it is so lonely for many, many couples.

I guess you see that on a daily and hold that space. And I guess that leads us to miscarriage in a sense in that that can be very isolating and scary. Yeah, it was because of what you've said. What would you say like some of the impacts of miscarriage. You spoke about it being systematic and I personally experienced and it was like a wow moment. Do you think that that's the hard part because it's, you know, we know that they have common but Yeah, that doesn't make it.

It's not common to the person. Yeah, it may be common to the practitioner. Yes. But it's not common you to the woman that's sitting there or the husband that sitting nearl. Yes. What now, what now. I was involved in a story which was very pivotal for me. Someone I know witnessed at the ute for Dr. Absolutely beautiful doctor, be totally flabbergasted when this girl went back and say please help me who can I turn to to? And the third party account that I got back later was there's got to be somewhere we can send these girls and I just looked at my shelf and went there and pointed to a whole lot of information. And it made me realize that because medicine sees this so regularly, and they have a 10 minute time slot. Yes that it is just a b c d e so sorry for your loss. 

And then you go you need up space where you can go, who just happened to debrief and holistically that's my role, you know, is you've got medicine to diagnose. You've got nursing to prescribe and administer. You've got someone like me to debrief to. And we don't give opportunities for debriefing of miscarriage. It's go away. Try again. One of the things that I was most challenged with because I'm 58 this year, im in grandmother role. My girlfriends were saying I wish my child would have a child  soon. So I want to be a grandmother and I just wanted to say to them and eventually I did say  shut out. You have no idea what they're going through. Had and that is quite because the change in my generation has been huge with fertility. I have no doubt there would have been miscarriages and stuff as such. But our lifestyle has put us into a new era now. 

And it is much more common. We have much more society pressures to have the job to house, Korea. The whole thing so pregnancy is becoming later and later and fitness life and that doesn't bring up the hiccups that come with miscarriages. But I think the most common theme I would say afterwards is just what do I do wronf? What can I change and I spend a lot of my time now because a lot of the girls that I work with we actually go through into their next pregnancy is rewriting the story. That's basically the words we use. Let's rewrite the story. Some change doctors little challenging here because our pool of good doctors for IVs are small. You mentioned a doctor, I do wonder if it was the same one and she said to a very special person in my life with her miscarriages. 

You're part of a club that no one wants membership and I've just thought that was such a good way to put it. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think the other thing is, we forget the impact of not only the couple going through it, but of the parents of the couples because that is something I had first knowledge. 

My beautiful daughter does allow me to share her story and I did recheck and triple check again and again. She had two normal pregnancies, no issues in the world. I worked with her the entire way through. I've been very blessed to work with all my grandchildren. And then she had three miscarriages in a row. She would literally fall lose it, fall loose it, fall loose it, fall loose it each of those as her mother was like walking around with my heart breaking on the outside of my body. As you can hear my voice. It was horrific. 

And there was no where I could send because if you know if I'd heard there was a specialist, I would have bundled up and there would have taken it down because doesn't matter how old your kids are they are still your little people. And interestingly, there was a reflexology point, which sort of can bring that back in a reflexology point that that indicated there was what we call congestion. And that was her thyoroid and we kept saying to her, there's something wrong with your thyroid. The cruelest thing is you actually have to have three miscarriages before medicine will effectively do anything. If she had have lost her fourth pregnancy I don't know how her and I actually would have gone the end of that story, which is now my absolutely delightful little grandchild. After she delivered him. I ended up thinking I was having a heart attack. I was working and she had to still in the hospital. She was ready to come home and I thought I'm having a heart attack. This must be a heart attack. I don't know what's going on with me. And in the end, I presented to the regional andi said to the dorcts rs I think I'm having a heart attack. And I ended up having the night in the hospital and it showed that I was not having a heart attack. And for the first time I like I had apparently an episode of anxiety. But what I think it was was I was flooded with adrenaline. I could finally let go. Because she and that child were here and were safe I had held her and my son in law the entire time. And that was the most amazing thing to do as a mother. The hardest thing to do at the same time, the most biggest blessing as a practitioner. And from that she's probably one of the most well-known people who you know, through my work, because she has always allowed me to share that story

And how beautiful and how powerful so please thank her on behalf of  me because one of the things that we've spoken about this before about being real and this is it. I think it  really raised and shed light on grandparents. I probably could have never understood until you have your own and just listening to your story and thinking about I've got girls and you've got to love them so much. It's hard to even communicate Yes. Yeah,

that was probably one of the bitter sweets because I thought she had daily reflexology to help bring her hormones in reflexology people wonder how fiddling with your feet helps in the work I do. And the bottom line is in maternity we are calming down your nervous system, we're working and calming that down. And it is one of the most amazing things to watch a mum be so Zen and relaxed and to watch her stomach do triple backflips because babies feel it. My three grandchildren my first grandchild, had it all her pregnancy. Loves it yesterday said to me Nan can we do ology and she had probably 20 minutes of reflexology. She knows that she wants it. The second one was loving as in pregnancy but loves it out. He had probably 15 minutes. The third postal the miscarriages and we often call them for our cracker babies. They come in and they've on. He would be kidding and caring and out of the way. He lost a couple of minutes and then he's like, oh man, oh man, because he is feeling I think it's ticklish for because reflexology is not ticklish, but exactly the same as he was in the womb. That's how he is out. So it's just such a blessing to be able to do that and to share you know those moments because that tough side of the journey I now get the fun side. But you know that reflexology side for my daughter was really important to help calm her down because those 10 months of pregnancy post miscarriages are hard. Pregnancy is not always fun post miscarriage, and people forget that. They are always waiting for someone to tap them on the shoulder to say hah tricked ya and something to change. And that is always really hard.

And this listening to you, it really sounds you provide so much hope to the women and the families and the couples you work with. What role do you think hope plays?

Everything? You have to you have to believe you cannot if you're not going to believe you know there was a little annecodte you I used to use with my children and they worked out the Christmas story. And I said if you don't believe you don't receive. There is no promises. There is no guarantees with pregnancy. I have a sister who's a midwife. I knew a long time ago that things go wrong. My ther and I have knitted and made rations or inches and hats that that fit on thumbs. We've done that for years because my sister being part of that we knew and you do. So it is there is no guarantees. 

And if you go into it, believing that your story is going to be the same. You're setting yourself up for such a long time of pain. So my role is to continue to find the light to be that space. You know, just that safe space where they can come in feeling that the world is against them, and then they can walk out going well actually. 

I did a postpartum doula course. And there was a very pivotal interview in there. And it was talking about working with stillborns and births that did not go according to plan. And this professor said you need to find something positive. So if this little one is born and not as healthy as can be, you may find that they have the cutest and you tell mum that they have the cutest little button, but you have to find

the positive.

The thing we often forget is in pregnancy we are honing our non verbal cues because we're getting away. So our senses are heightened we know that our husbands are  are rolling their eyes from three miles

So I have to be positive all the time. Because there's too much negative really. So very much

 I loved it when we first met Julie and I think you reached out when I first started because you were like wow we need more of this the more and the lack of things, on a personal level. I wish I'd had a Julie I wish because I remember you know talking about the doctors raised you need to grieve you need to give yourself time to do that. And that's important I agree but then theres that okay, what can I do to get myself in the best physical, emotional mental physicians are going in to achieve the ultimate goal of having that baby in your arms.

So this is where my reproductive comes in, reproductive reflexology is extremely. There's only two, maybe three of us in Australia to do the work. There's only me in Western Australia. It is a very specialized area. I have actually just found out that I can only be insured through Lloyd's of London now, which I find a little bit about. You go because it's such a specialty area. It's massive. Okay, and a lot of the IVF clinics are now a lot of it in it because IVF and I'd love to go back and touch further on that. But then my stories could go forever and ever. Because IVF is a different type that starts much earlier and differently. But my reproductive reflexology side comes in where we can start to help the body with getting a hormone balance for some women, that emptiness that they feel is so real, that that cannot function with thought that there is a part of them missing so badly, and they want that path. And in that point, I got in touch with bear of hope and asked, Could I be part of their program? 

Unfortunately, I can't. It's only done through the hospital. I do have the brochures which I had to argue to get hold of but that tangible things if I can have a beautiful client are seen this week. And I suggested to her go and buy something you can hang on to. You need to be able to physically hold something because they're part of you now has gone so the reproductive side for some is a metal pole, and you've got to get all of those stress hormones, not balanced because that's not what we do, but in a much more conducive line for future pregnancies. But for other girls, they're kind of able to put it in a spot where there's an imaginary shelf like box it beautifully and pop it on the shelf.

 It doesn't mean they will never pull it down again. But for now, they don't need it. They want their hormones to be working. So we are really proactively working on getting the estrogen and the progesterone and trying to minimize the stress hormone responses because that's going to inhibit ovulation. So we really are working on trying to get the endometrial release as much as possible. Some girls will choose to have a surgical intervention or a medical intervention, others on the natural intervention and that's where reflexology is really beneficial. Plus we will show the girls things that they can do at home, so they feel like they've got a sense of control. Yeah, they're doing something that reproductive side then can move into an onto going to getting them to regulate again, we use the different techniques. For some. For me personally, it's really important for me to have tools so that's where basal body temperature charting is really important. I studied cervical mucus for 12 months and the billings method practitioner. So for the girls who don't want to temperature chart and really it is one of the best ways to do it, or was to have a blood test every single day. learning and understanding your cervical mucus will give you a really good indication of what's going on. Because you have to get a whole lot of hormones out of your body and then get a whole lot of hormones functioning again in your body. So that's what that area does and works with. It is important to acknowledge that not everybody has miscarriage grief. For some people that can come

Thank you for saying that. I actually wanted to ask you about that Julie because I saw your post post and that reminded me. It ca n in in one way make it more difficult for those that have had a miscarriage and have been absolutely heartbroken. Yeah. So that's because I've sort of forgotten about it. We spoke about miscarriage last week. That's very real, isn't it?

For some it is literally, for some the belief is, the moment the conception occurs, the little human is there, and that's mine, you know for others its birth. And I'm not going to be the person to say no, that's not what do

Doyou think that that that potentially impacts, do you think that's got to do with why we don't share our grief and miscarriages.

Yes, Because it is grieving for many in a very different way. One of the most challenging stories that has stuck with me for probably 10 plus years I've been doing this work for about 12 years now I'm not really that interested in knowing the dates or times. This particular girl actually there's two stories I'd like to share. This particular girl has learned to basically go to the toilet do a wee and never look at her underwear which I thought was really weird. And I just, you know, poker face the entire time. I sort of it's interesting to see because I'm too scared to look in casei see blood.  We've allowed this woman as a society to basically train her body to be in complete avoidance, because she cannot cope with the fact that there may be actually was very, very long term fertility journey. And I just thought sad that that's how she's trying to become her normal and then the second one, which was really keen, how sometimes we just not getting it right was I was working with a girl who had a second miscarriage and it was an IVF miscarriage both of those and then I got a phone call from a  lady who introduced me as my mother. And she said to me, I have had 11 miscarriages and I can't tell her I just thought how sad that one she had 11 miscarriages such a long time ago, but two, she does not feel that she could share that with her daughter. And so each of these miscarriages and the IVF grief and fertility journey that she was going through, was just bringing all of these stories back up again. When miscarriage back then was just under the carpet, never to come out. And I could not I didn't know how to say I was all I could do and that's probably a very common thing that I will say is that I am not going to placate you with all the niceities. Its just shit.

But that story also stuck with me because there are often things we never know. Because this daughter never knew and this mother,  I was probably one of the first people she ever told.

Do you think that that's a positive in not in itself by the fact that we are getting better? Because I know that that is 100% why I'm here and to do what I do now because I've been able to share and talk about my beautiful daughter and my miscarriages and they were heartbreaking and tt say and hey were devastation and the people that reached out to me and shared their stories, and they I hadn't been able to talk about in actual fact there is one story where they were noe able to take part in that childs funeral us because it was seen as it will just deal with this save them but that’s just So I do do you feel like that’s  getting better or do you? Yes, yeah. So I had a close family member. First child a single one was born. No actually born alive, but with massive disfigurement and have never allowed to see his child. So the belief was that it would traumatize. How disempowering. So that's what 50 plus years ago we have come along way. 

We have. My sister as a midwife learnt calligraphy so she could do the grieving books, a girlfriend of my was pivotal in instigating the cold cots so you could be with your children. I have all patterns at home for clothing, my sister would regulary say have you got a pink jacket. And as I say this has been done for years, probable probably been done for 25, 26 27 years. I have probably donated at a minimum of three quilts. I wonder if I got one of yours. Initially they were going to King Edwards. Then they were regional. I 

I love that, you are doing something physical, you're doing something that's your giving back and I've got to say from the receiver so I've got a beautiful quilt that actually is still on my tall boy in in my bedroom. That is Emmes  and she was wrapped in and I feel like I am connected to her through that.

And that is probably where miscarriage grief is different vecause you walk away with nothing. I think the other thing I would like ot highlight is the longer along in your pregnancy you are the longer you are allowed to grieve. Because the moment we see those two blue lines you are pregnant, and that pregnancy counts. That is one of my extreme passions to the point where I'm almost like bring him here and I'll take him on. He's not on absolutely there. There can be levels and differences. But every pregnancy counts and your grief because well I hear that so much. But you know she she was 14 weeks it was worse for her. No it's not.

It's that connection. straightaway. Yeah.

You spoke about that connection straightaway. And this is where it's interesting how you This is where you can bring in the males that may not grieve the same. That's the couples that I'm seeing at the moment. He's not understanding. It's not that he didn't care, love want all the rest of it. But he didn't feel it. He doesn't understand that same sense of grief. And it's not anything against a male but a man becomes a father when he holds his child. 

Yeah. Because you know, my children now I know. They would be kicking and carrying on and I'd say give me your hand and my husband and then they'd be silence Yeah, nothing. And he used to take it personally. And in the end. I try and sneakily bring these hand over to feel the baby. But I don't feel that so it's another challenge area.

Yeah, definitely. I'm curious as to how many couples you work with like would you add a percentage is do do a bit of both like one on one with the women do you do couples? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that so much

Depending on who the issue is, so this is the other thing that is I'm very passionate about explaining which began you know, my my social media stories is miscarriage is deemed to be a female issue. Yeah, that's wrong. Males are our canaries and our male fertility health is declining rapidly. Yeah. And you have to have DNA that's good from a man DNA that's good from a female to then come together to make the most receptive. It's not always perfect. And this is where IVF is the challenge because the fertility grief that comes with IVF can be really challenging because it's believed to be the panacea. You know, it's not work here. They're going to save me and when it doesn't, that's a double whammy, because what else do I have left? And unfortunately IVF is very much dominated by our female because it is very much males. There's not a lot we have from in medicine. So females, we have drugs we have regimes

Its very physical too and would you say exhausting? Yes exhausting beyond belief. The drugs that they put in? So when I work with IVF couples, we're basically preparing them to be the best that they can be. So they had the minimal amount of drugs put in them. In my time doing this work IVF clinics had changed dramatically. In the beginning, that was get as many eggs as we can, but that actually meant that a lot of girls were ovarian hyperstimulation which they then have to stop for three to four months to allow that to come back to then try and get them back in. Now they have less to try and get them what they call them on natural IVF but we're still really missing the factor of our male because if their sperm quality is not great, you know, it is not going to work. And we just don't have enough emphasis on male fertility health. We're only just really getting the female side because IVF is only 40/50 years old. It's not that old. People think with my work, it's a direct competition. We have protocols that we work with girls, right up to and right after conception. Yeah, it's supporting the drugs that they're doing, trying to make the outcome. But when this panacea of fertility infertility fails, then they are really lost and they go back again. And again. One of the hardest things that I do is we actually have to talk about exit strategies. When is Enough, enough? Yeah. And that is tough. Wow.

Yeah. Amazing work that you do, Julie, just listening to you. I guess for our listeners. Is there anything I'm thinking of those that are family or friends wanting to support someone that they know of going through this? Do you have any information or thoughts or wisdom around this?

It's really tough because we just want to stop pain. You know, we've grown up to if you have a cut to put a bandaid on it stops the blood. If you have a headache, take a tablet, it goes away. So we're not conditioned to sit with pain, and we are even less conditioned to sit with emotional pain. We will avoid that at all costs. In our medicine world. We holistically we're looking at the physical, the mental, the emotional, the spiritual, financial. There are many implications, but they're the main ones and financial is massive. Yeah, it's a huge one at the moment. Medicine we'll look at physical because we can see that. You will look at mental and there's a big push with the mental health. That's huge. But in a 10 minute slot in a double 20 minute slot. There's not a lot of time to look at the emotional and so when we are sitting with pain and watching that on the outside, it's really hard to not try and fix it. Take away their pain. Yeah, you want to put a bandaid on it. You want to fix it. You want him to stop talking about it. Not that you don't want to listen, but they're hurting so much. You think that's the band aids not big enough. Let's get a bigger Band Aid. What you can do is just sit talk, talk about them. You know, I often will say when the post pregnancy Do you think this is the same little one coming back in? Because we often say in the holistic world that sometimes miscarriages is like I'm coming in no I'm not coming in no no. Yeah, yeah. No, it's interesting to my daughter. Do you think that number three is and she went? Oh, no. Yeah, hell no. This is one that's gone move over. Yeah, you are taking too long are coming in. And that's the firecracker term. So just sticking with it. But don't forget just doing the practical things are coming over. What can I do? Yeah, I'm gonna sweep the floor. I'm gonna do this she's gonna say no don’t don’t  I'm gonna come over and mow your lawn. Come over and just sit down. I had a girlfriend that birth to stillborn child. And she had another lady who she said I wasn't very close to. But every day she rang me. And I used to dread that phone call. She said I would think oh for god sake Not again. But she said eventually that phone call was my lifeline. Because I knew she was going to read and I knew I had to talk about something because she didn't hang up the following. And eventually I started talking. And she said it was just something that I didn't think about. As a grandparent. If you need something to do, you know, just do the practical. And I say this to even the maternity girls. If your mum walks in and start sweeping the floor. Don't think she's saying you're dirty. She's doing something to help you. her baby's hurting. her baby's very heavily pregnant. She's a bit nervous about what's happening. Let her do something. So it is you know, find a tool. Take them out, but more than anything, just sit with them cry with them. Yeah, be sad. You your first one was so good, because you just talked back and forth about the journeys. Yeah. And it's really important to just, if they need to talk, just talk I think

that's what I really love that really strikes me what you were saying about oh, do you think this one is that like because you're actually giving such a great gift. You're allowing a mother to talk about their baby and what they thought and their hopes and dreams and I just love that so much.

Did they have an idea? Yeah, yeah. Do you want to know do you want to save the name for it is just loud. It is tough when it's on the outside because it will change day by day. You know, I'm considered that place where I can say they see Yeah, and I can say this is bleep bleep bleep not very nice. Yeah. But family may not actually be able to say that. So it is often just very much led by day by day and I know that with my daughter, so I asked her to chat with her fourth one because I needed and everything was fine. And we have a particular move that boosts progesterone, and I'm saying, Are you doing your homework? And she was like, yes. And she's like, mum I am not doing this anymore. Just trust me. I am doing my homework, and I had to go. Okay, and I think they're in started my journey of my little meltdown at the end. Yeah, because she made the rule and I had to sit back and go, okay, yeah, this is my part of the story. Yeah. I think that's something we do forget is family grief girlfriend grief, partner grief. All of that. But it is sometimes secondary to the female grief. Yeah. And I'm very thankful that woman did reach out with her multiple miscarriages to just talk never heard from her again. But just to say, I need to acknowledge because I'm seeing history repeat. And this is scaring me so much.

Wow, Julie, you've just provided and shared so much insight on so many levels like your your personal journey, your family journey. I love that you brought in the beautiful grandparents side of things too. I actually got a couple, a mum and a daughter that would like to come in. Because I think where possible like support that you can be as a mum for a daughter through that is just incredible next level, but the work you do and not just the actual professional side of it. The reflexology actually doing providing hope but that emotional support you are providing women and couples I just want to I want to thank you so much for the work you do. You're just so passionate and kind and committed and I love that you you know you so much as me like we just want to we know that that talking and being open and that's where it starts is that having our grief witnessed and yeah and shared. So important. Yeah,

I don't have any signage at my clinic, which is in my home. And it was question that was often asked and I said, No one needs to know who's coming to me. No, you know, this can be a private journey until they're ready to share a public journey. Yeah. And whether that be the miscarriage side, the pregnancy side, any part of it? Yeah. When women are ready, and I've witnessed that with many, many now, they will share Yeah, I always say, I won't talk to you. If I see you downtown. I will walk straight past you. And so many now who had challenges many years ago and these little blossoms are now in school. will come up and go you know, and they're not all out there now. And they've been given space and time. Yeah. And it does become easier. Yeah. One of the things I will say is you are not broken. You are grieving and one day, those beats will come home, you may not have all of the bits, but you will have enough to put yourself back together. And that just becomes a page in your book. And I say that to girls whose birth plans because birthing may not may bring up grief as well. If you didn't birth I mean it might be a perfect birth for me who had you know, general anesthetics or any natural birth would been good for me. But if you wasn't what you planned, that's another level of grief. But as I say, that's just a part of your story. And one day you find a place and you build a new chapter. Yeah. And you start again. Yeah.

And I love that you're respecting that individual. Right for confidentiality, or when they're not like everybody's going to be ready when they're ready or not. So that's really, really beautiful as well. How do people find you, Julie? Like if they're listening and I haven't heard of you and I'd like to reach out to support

Much my husband's absolute horror and disgust. I've demanded now I have no IT knowledge that's one thing I will put straight down now. I demanded I needed a webpage. I had no idea why. I sort of did because trying to explain what I do because I've been called everything from a woowoo or or witch doctor. You name it, and I'll just take all of them whatever, talk to the hand But I said to my husband, I need a webpage they need to be able to read about me. It's quite interesting. I'll be downtown and I walk past someone and next thing I'll see them on my side. And they'll just take off in the other direction. And at first I thought now I know that's they're thinking about coming to me they're talking about me and suddenly I'm a real person. So the best way for people to find out who I am is to go to my webpage which is different to my business name. But my web page is Geraldton reflexology.com.au. Everything I do is very wordy. I was offered a job as a speech writer. I could have done that really well. So I'm really quite detailed on my website. That will also link you to my socials where I have been doing very well I think extensive as much as as social media will allow me just as a little side adjunct if I put anything about cervical mucus on socials I am band for a month, which just shows the level Yes, that's a bit of offensive. Yeah. So yes, that will lead to any socials and I do put a lot of stuff up. My socials are very much as I talk, you know, I will often have a client in mind and I'll just stop Yeah.

But yeah, I love that. And I think with the website and the socials as you're saying with the information, I think that allows somebody space and time to start thinking of you know, have a look find out information just set sometimes just that that bit of a seed if I'm already so yeah, thank you and I'll actually also place those in the show notes as well so people can

I honestly say the hardest thing that couples will do is walk in my door and I will always respect that. You know, because they're taking away that sense of spontaneity, and they're admitting this in their reality something is not right. And it's it's really tough, and it could be posed miscarriage and it has been post stillborn. It has been post early child loss Yeah.

Many many different things will bring through the spectrum. My work is very broad. I tend to just think whoever walks in my door is the person that I need to

work work with. Yeah, and I can assure listeners myself, I bet that they will walk away from your wear,th and feeling a little lighter because of the way in which you work. I see myself as a library. My role is to direct you to just I was looking for the one percenters to help you on your journey because it is a lonely journey. And I did have my children, but I nearly lost all three of them. So I'm eternally thankful, and I will always be on bended knee that somewhere, someone decided that I could hold on and it's come at a physical cost of my body, but I would do it again. So yes, that's part of my journey.

Thank you so much for sharing. Just incredible actually think I'm going to listen back to this a few times. Just it's very flattering. Amazing talking to you. I love your work and your your honesty, and your passion really shines and you're such a warm person. Your energy is just amazing. And thank you so much for for this and yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank You.