E005: Leading With Courage and Humility with Gill Gibb

Gill Gibb talks about the importance of leading with courage, but also being humble enough to admit you can't do it all as a leader and being willing to ask for help when you need it. She also shares her secret to achieving work-life harmony and how empowering her team play a big part.

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Gill is CEO of Tree of Hope, a charity which supports families to raise funds for operations and therapies not ordinarily available from the UK health sector.  Gill was formerly a Director at both Future builders, now the Social Investment Business and the Charities Aid Foundation (CAF), winning the Queens Award for Enterprise at CAF for innovative financial services products. She has managed significant investment portfolios and is highly experienced as a practitioner and consultant in charity governance and finance.

Transcript

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I really try to be a servant leader non-dictorial non-top-down really kind of invert the pyramids  and it's quite easy to do when you realize who you're working for as opposed to who's working  for you because it doesn't matter how good you are as an individual if you haven't got a team around  you that want to work with you and get on with each other and get on with you and look after your  customers or families or clients then you haven't got a business or you won't have one for very long You're listening to the life and Leadership podcast where leaders from across the globe  share openly about the trials triumphs and Lessons Learned along the leadership Journey  whether you're a seasoned new or aspiring leader get ready to receive powerful insights  and practical takeaways to help you grow in your leadership and now here is your host Mary Eniolu. Welcome to the life and Leadership podcast I'm Mary Eniolu and I am delighted to have with me  on the show today Mr James Gardner James has been in business for over 20 years and has successfully  set off several businesses including one in the states he's on a mission to help grow the next  generation of amazing leaders and loves working with people to help them set and exceed their own  amazing 3D goals that all sounds amazing James thank you so much for joining us on the life and  Leadership podcast thank you Mary thank you for having me I'm really excited about today's episode  I am as well I can't wait to hear all about this amazing 3D goals but first I'd like you  to just tell our audience a little bit about your journey and how you got to where you are today  yes of course yeah well it started around 30 years ago and was my first job and I often find this I  asked this of other leaders as well what was their first job and how old were they and what  did they do and it's a fascinating sort of start to understand where people really come from so I  was around 12 13 years old and I would cycle from my home to the local pub on a Saturday and Sunday  morning to bottle up the back bar with all the different drinks the orange juices and the tonics  and all the different things that had been used the night before I remember I got three pounds  per day for doing that and it was my first kind of insight into getting your own money and working  hard for earning some money and I you know I took that on board I really enjoyed that and another  opportunity came up as they often do and I went to work for another um local business I had to cycle  a bit further for this one but this was washing cars again on the weekend and I used to watch Cars  for local Funeral Directors but the reason I tell you that is because a long story cut quite short  but I left college and university a little bit early actually I didn't finish my degree and  I left to join the same Funeral Directors as a full-time member of staff there and quite  quickly realized actually I wasn't going to be able to progress up through the ranks because  there weren't many ranks there to progress it was a small family business and I left there to kind  of go and conquer the world is how I put it I went up to London for a couple of years I worked for a  large banking corporation and a travel company as well and then my brother and I set up a business  in manufacturing we manufactured plastic parts and we then expanded that all the way over to America  started from scratch over there which was really interesting lots of flights back and forth to  build the team up over there and again long story cut short 20 odd years later we actually sold that  business to an American company who had UK and European operations but we stayed on every team  member stayed on and retained their their role if that's what they wanted which they did and I ended  up after all of that time actually being managing director of the UK and European division for that  manufacturing company and really enjoyed it lovely company to work for but I ended up working for  another company as opposed to being my own boss so I hit a midlife crisis around 40 years old I  didn't go and buy a sports car or anything like that but I said to my wife I think I'd rather try  at this age to have another go at running our own businesses again rather than working for  somebody else until I'm 65 and get a pension and a gold watch maybe and do that so that's what we  did so the reason I told you where I saw sort of started out my journey was because I went back to  that same funeral director 20 years later and had a coffee and a catch up with him and I proposed  the question to him he was 62 at the time I said I'm not sure if you're ready to retire yet but  when you are would you give me first refusal on the business because I'd love to buy it and I'd  love to sort of take over from you and you know see how that goes and he turned around and said  I think I'm ready now so it was a great time and place to be in that position that was October 2019  well before we knew anything about the pandemic and then in March the 6th we signed on the dotted  line so the business became ours and then 10 days later 16th of March 2020 Boris Johnson  said anybody that can work from home go and work from home because the pandemic sort of first wave  was really enforced then wow that is amazing that is an amazing story and I'm very curious now so  how how did that come about did you stay in touch throughout those 20 years or did you just remember  them and thought let me give them a call out of the blue? Yeah no we stayed in touch with family  friends so we would stay in touch and see at different um sort of events and birthdays and  Christmases and things like that so that was really nice uh but again there'd been enough  period of time I'd gone off and I'd sort of cut my teeth as it were learning leadership and how  to run businesses and all those sorts of things alongside of my brother learning from my brother  who's 12 years my senior so there was a real sort of nice age Gap and and had a wonderful sort of  time working with him and learning from him as well and and it was a great kind of opportunity  because I came back into that business having worked there having known a little bit how it ran  um and it kind of felt like actually not a lot had really changed and I was  able to sort of hit the ground running quite quickly with the existing team who  were fantastic and sort of grow and develop them as well yeah it's completely different  to the manufacturing business you were in before was did you have to do a huge mind  shift to run this business what sort of changes did you need to make internally  it is yeah is it interesting so from the outside it's very different obviously what what the the  two businesses uh are doing and and who they're looking after but when you break  down I think pretty much any business it comes down to the people around you again your team  that's around you I don't call them employers or staff but the team that we have around us  um getting that right is vital and key to success and less headaches and less stress and growing and  developing them so I've been doing that already in the you know with the previous business for  the last 20 years and with the travel side and setting up in America uh trips to China to see  manufacturing and operations over there as well and around Europe and everything else you quite  quickly learn that people aren't that different anywhere in the in the world and um even with a  language barrier of you know I don't speak Chinese and you know other languages not very well but  people fundamentally are all the same people are either happy or sad you can hurt people by the way  you do things and how you react and so on and so forth and I guess I'd learned that about looking  after people and again by getting it wrong as well and making silly mistakes as a young man and not  doing things right so now I think that stood Us in good stead to be able to to look after  this company and um yeah so there's lots of lots more similarities I think than people would think  that's quite interesting it reminds me of a quilt I can't quite remember who said it now but he  said we're all in the no we are in the people business making coffee we're not in the coffee  business serving people and that's basically what you're saying like if you understand that whatever  business you're in whatever industry if you understand it's about people it's all about people  that's a skill that you can take with you wherever you go whether it's manufacturing whether it's  law or accounting we're all first in the people business and people meaning either your staff or  your employees or your clients or your customers if you put people first that is a big good skill  that you can take wherever you go I'm going to ask you now so what is leadership to you how would you  define leadership okay and that's a great question isn't it I really tried to be a servant leader  um non-dictorial non-top-down really kind of invert the pyramids uh and be the servant leader  from the bottom up and it's quite easy to do when you realize who you're working for as opposed to  who's working for you because it doesn't matter how good you are as an individual if you haven't  got a team around you that want to work with you and get on with each other and get on with you and  look after your customers or families or clients then you haven't got a business or you won't have  one for very long and to me leadership like I said is that servant-hearted leadership about  I'm here to serve and that's whether that's the people around me in my team whether that's the  families whether that's doing things that nobody knows that I'm doing um those are really the key  things it's kind of how how do you operate how do you work when no one's looking I think  if we had more leaders like that especially in key positions in global politics and so on and  so forth which I don't know won't go into that but I think the world would be a better place  right so for you leadership is more about service and I suppose um leading by example you know if  you're serving then you're you're doing leaders go first I always like to say so you're showing  the way with your actions what is expected and how they should act absolutely I quite agree with the  idea of servant leadership I think it's it's the best kind of leadership and understanding that  when people serve and work with you because they want to that's always more powerful than  them doing it just because they think they have to because if they do it just because they feel  they have to maybe because of the pay then the minute they feel like they don't have to then they  don't so having people follow you or work with you because they want you it's a great achievement for  any leader to attend to so that's really powerful if um if you could look back and I know you've had  loads of experience business experience leadership experience uh that's brought you where you are  today if you were to look back back and there was one person you would like to say thank you to  that's really inspired you and I'm sure there are loads of people that have inspired you but  if you could pick just one person to say thank you to who that person be and why um so yeah  that's really tricky because there's been so many wonderful mentors in my life from family members  to uh other mentors that I've actually seeked out and you know paid for to have mentorship  and training and development things like that but I'm gonna say my brother so my brother Paul  both my brothers are fantastic but my brother Paul who I worked alongside with for 20 years  um I learned so much from him because it literally we were you know working together  from the ground up uh learned so much about business about family life as well about how  to you know look after the team and everything else like that so he again had such an impact  on my life I wouldn't be the person I am or the leader I am without his influence and  um will be forever grateful for that I hope your other brother is not listening to this  no and again we actually were very close and um I have a lovely relationship with my other brother  Pete he's a fantastic guy a really gifted musician and guitar player and songwriter and everything as  well um so yeah all three of us get on really well and um again just because I'd spent a  lot more time with Paul on the leadership side of things but again there's been lots of lessons I've  learned from Pete as well in how to conduct myself um both both my brothers are older so 10 and 12  years older than me so I was you know very much the baby of the family and um privileged position  to be the last to be able to learn from them learn from their mistakes and try not to get caught or  not to do that so mum and dad didn't tell me off as well but again have a wonderful relationship  with all of my family so it's lovely but you you asked me for one I had to pick blame it on me um so can I just ask you James what was your first experience of stepping into leadership  for me it was when I took over as MD of that manufacturing company from my brother and it was  four or four years ago just over four years now first of November four years ago and that was the  first time that I really realized that the buck stopped with me always up until that point I'd  had somebody else that I could go to even though I was in charge of quite a bit of the company  um it was at that moment it was a real Bittersweet really because I'd loved working with him we had a  great working relationship um and I I got my goal of being MD of the company but I'd lost  working with my brother on a day-to-day basis in the same day and it was real Bittersweet but  that for me looking back would have been the first time that I would have been in  charge of a company and and lots of people where again even with the support from the  parent company in America it was still pretty much under my watch and did you feel ready  I thought I was this is interesting so I thought I was again a 20-year succession plan is quite a  lot of time to get ready and then the reality is um I I was ready for certain elements we'd had  a great kind of long Handover period as well and everything else I wasn't ready for the fact that  I'd be going it alone uh even though I had support and I still had my brother here and then we met  up and so on and so forth but I wasn't ready for that which which sort of caught me unawares and  I wasn't ready really for the role because you're not really doing the role until you're in it and  for me I handed my notice in and left that company three years later to start my own businesses  um through a sort of the acquisition process and three years later that's when I was ready and I  always sort of say to people you're never going to be ready for the role you're promoted into or  you shouldn't be otherwise you know you're not aiming high enough and to me like I said you're  always ready when you're leaving because you know everything you know what happens each year year  and all that kind of thing that goes on so looking back definitely wasn't ready I thought it would be  um grateful for the support around me and again three years later that's probably when I was  most ready I really hope that encourages someone listening because very often we feel like we're  thrust into a leadership position and we're not ready and it can be very frightening but it's  quite encouraging to hear that you don't have to be ready as long as you have a a desire to learn  and you're eager to to learn then that is probably the best time for you to step into leadership when  you don't feel like you know it all and you're open to to receive instruction and direction  from others perhaps that have gone before so I think that's quite encouraging yeah I also think  and I had the statistic but I can't remember it but there's a greater proportion of men in the  leadership roles of companies as opposed to women and it's not because they're better because we  know that they're not and but what it is is men think that they are better and and sort of blag  the six the sort of you know they know 60 of the role and they'll blag the last 40 percent whereas  women want to know 90 95 even 100 of the role before they even apply for it so my plea is to  people that are listening whether you're a male or female doesn't matter to me if you're wanting that  even if you don't get the role on that time you'll learn so much through the process um and often  you might get it because you've just put your name into the hat and you've been given the opportunity  like I was I I thought I was ready people around me thought I was ready hindsight says I wasn't  as ready as I probably could or should have been but nor is anybody else and they said hopefully  someone's listening today and they're thinking okay that's why other people are getting promoted  around me because I'm not putting myself you know in that position and there's a great quote it's by  Les Brown he says it's better to be prepared for an opportunity and not have one come along then  have an opportunity come along and not be prepared absolutely so be prepared but you have to put your  name into the hat to even be in with a chance to get a leadership role that is such good advice  good advice and you are right I think more women than men tend to um put themselves out of the race  before they even start again I'm going to put you on the sport and ask for just three what if  you had to pick three top qualities that you think every leader should have what will those three be um so for me it would be care caring for people again coming back to that people's side you know  and and it starts with yourself actually if you're not caring for yourself mentally and  physically nutritionally and holistically then at some point you're gonna fall down in one of those  or multiple of those areas so caring for yourself and caring for other people and and then caring  for your clients or customers the families that you're looking after so that's really important  um for me I would also have learning as part of that I'm a lifelong learner continuing to read  listen to podcasts listen to audio books when I'm driving uh I don't listen to the radio or music  hardly at all unless my girls are in the car and then that might go on because they don't want to  listen to one of my boring books um but just pushing yourself every day to learn a little  bit more so definitely learning and and having the correct attitude I love this other little  quote there's a there's the difference between try and Triumph and all it is is just a little oomph  and it's having that attitude of I'm gonna have that oomph and sometimes we don't feel like it as  people let alone as Leaders but it's convincing yourself to have that attitude that you can do  things I know that's your company and that's your line but it is that can do attitude where you've  got to just go for it as well you know the Nike thing as well but just do it it's that combination  all rolled up into one word of attitude is what I would say yeah absolutely I agree with you on  the care definitely because there's a quote that says people don't care how much you know until  they know how much you care and it goes back to this people thing isn't it I mean we talk  about it all the time people first well I think as As Leaders especially it's important that  we really do put people first and we really care about people as people not just as objects to be  um to be there to help us fulfill our purpose even though that's a big part of why they're there so  I think that's important all three qualities you've mentioned are quite important I think  are definitely you need to have a can-do attitude because as a leader you're there to solve problems  you have to give hope and to give hope you have to have hope and people have to say that I'm leading  someone who might not have all the answers but they they have Direction and they're going to  pull us through so yeah absolutely important so you mentioned your girls I'm gonna pick up  on that and tell me about leadership at home because I think when we this is a life and  Leadership podcast and very often when we talk about leadership we're thinking about business  we're thinking about the work environment and that's all good but how important is it to lead  your home your family you know how how important is it for you to be a good leader at home  yeah for me it's it's vital and and it's sort of interesting and almost perfect training ground  um we've got two girls now one is 16 and one is 13 and their growth throughout those years has just been  fantastic you know I'm so proud of them for the young ladies they're turning into and  they're both very different as often the case with having two children brought up in the same  household I am very proud of my girls and want to continue to sort of teach them and the way we do  that sort of coming back to answer your question is that typically that's around the dinner table  so every night as a family we have dinner at the dinner table and we don't have a TV on we don't  have music on and things like that we we talk we talk about our day we talk about what the  girls have done at school we talk about what we've done in business so leadership at home  starts with communication as is pretty much everything in life and it's again listening  to them creating time for them and vice versa and one thing that happened just last week actually  um my youngest daughter went to a youth group my wife was going out with some friends and on  the same night my eldest daughter and I went out for a dad and daughter dinner date and we had a  lovely time lovely meal and just talked about her future and after GCSE's and a levels and does she go  to university or you know do some traveling and those types of things to us so those moments are just so key in in my happiness and and then hopefully in her future development as well  oh wow that is so good um really really good because it's it's very tempting when you run  a business and you're trying to be successful at what you do to put the family at the back  burner and say well they'll always be there they understand why I'm doing what I'm doing  they understand I'm doing it for the family but you just mentioned about time you know there's  a lot of spell love is spelled time you know and just having that time with your family and showing  them that they are important you know you're not waiting to be in quotes successful before  they become important in your life I think that's such a powerful thing and like you in in our home  dinner time was my before I say it was because our kids are all grown up now our youngest is  over at Uni dinner time was my favorite time of the day because I could just I just loved and  looked forward to all sitting around the dinner table and having those conversations that's when  we catch up no mobile phones you know that was the rule no mobile phones at the dinner table and  just just have a conversation and really get to know them and what's happening in their day so  um I think that's really important um as well so I really just loved that I just had a big  smile on my face as you described that but but I want you to tell me because when we talk about  again leaders and and business and and everybody thinks about you in that setting as a leader but  leaders are human beings they have their personal lives as well and that's why we we wanted to focus  on the life and Leadership and to me it's all intertwined it shouldn't be different  um tell me what it is like a typical day in the day of Mr James Gardner what does that look like  from when you wake up in the morning to when you go to bed yeah it's very interesting because it  that you know as you were saying that I was mining too because there's not really two days the same  um if I tell you kind of what I would like to do but please don't think I'm perfect and do this  every day because I'm definitely not in time but what I would love to do I'm an early bird so I  wake up fairly early um and not uncommon for me to be awake between sort of four or five a.m um but  I'm getting better at sort of especially with the darker mornings that we're having at the moment so  say five to six a.m I'm up and um getting myself ready I love to journal in the morning something  that I've learned later on in life I was never a journaler in my younger years and I do different  forms of journaling and guided journaling through different books and things like that but just  have that reflective time to journal is really important really sets me up for the day and then  potentially listening to a podcast or an audio book I also read in the mornings as well when  I can a few chapters of a a physical book rather than just listening to one and so again setting  myself up and if I'm in in a really good state of mind I would do that all before turning my phone  on to look at emails and messages and things like that again I'm human so that doesn't always happen  but that's really how I like to start my day and then I would ideally like to go to the gym and  either do a class or a workout and the reason I go to the gym is to do that obviously to keep fit  uh or fitter that I am at the moment would like to be but I also if again I've got time is I have  um sort of my own time in the spa area in the hot tub the steam room or the sauna afterwards  and that's just time for me and my mental health so whilst I'm in the hot tub for example I would  do a breathing routine um just to clear my head after that whilst recovering from the workout  and then I will do sort of maybe some meditation whilst I'm in there as well um and it's a  fantastic way to sort of set myself up and start the day and then I really try and get my day  um fairly full with meetings uh I try not to have meetings before 10 a.m because that's time for me  just to catch up on work and wherever everyone is and what's happening and then sort of 10 a.m  onwards so today I've had a meeting um where I went to a face-to-face meeting which was great  I then was asked by one of my team members if they could have a quick word with me so I popped in to  see them ended up having a quick word with a few people which was lovely and then I had another  Zoom meeting as I came back from this uh meeting and then obviously recording a podcast with you  which is fantastic and then we'll be on to dinner time with the girls again which is our favorite  time as well we also have that rule no Tech at the table is what we say because otherwise you  go off into your own worlds and um just for that half hour hour or so is lovely to have  that time and then I'm to bed quite early you know I typically will go up around half eight  and then sort of get ready and sort of try and get to sleep by half nine so that I'm ready to  get up early and tackle the day again wonderful wonderful so do you tend to have dinner at home  every evening with a family of the family yes that's our goal yeah and again every now and  then we'll have you know a meal out together again as a family as a treat um but yeah we we try where  wherever possible we rarely eat separately or alone or on our laps in front of the TV that never  really happens at all so you know 99.9 of dinners are together the four of us at the dinner table  um or with my parents you know we're going out for a birthday meal or something like that or  my other family so um yeah very very important time that's in the time yeah definitely I think  it's a good way as well to make sure you spend time with your family every day because you're  gonna eat anyway so why not do it together if you make it a tradition then you make sure every  single day you're spending time with a family that's wonderful what does success mean to you  gosh it's such an interesting word isn't it and um I think it means so many different things  different people to me success I would look at is is happiness to be successful isn't necessarily  how many um you know zeros or pounds you've got in the bank or dollars it's it's around happiness  happiness to me equals doing whatever I want whenever I want with it with whom I want well  we're almost out of time but I've got a few more questions that I really want to to ask you so the  next question I want to ask you is about failure and I always say fairly unsuccess are the same  thing they're just two different sizes the same coin but tell us about the time that you failed  um how you handled it and what lessons did you learn from me because I don't know about you but  I find that I learned more from in quote failures than when I feel like everything is going on as it  ought to you absolutely I I love failing um I try and um you know encourage my team members to fail  as much and as quickly as possible so we learn the most from it we rarely learn from our successes  when we look back but we definitely should or could learn from our failures one of the questions  I posed to them is when was the last time you failed you know and if you can't remember maybe  you're not pushing the boundaries enough so for me it was it was today there was a failure today you  know and I've got loads I I made an announcement um just last week at work for some promotions for  some different people and in doing that I'd upset somebody else a really other key member  to the team wasn't my intention to do that but I did that and we had a conversation today around  that and how that person felt and um and it upsets me because I desperately try not to hurt or upset  people but I had failed because I had done it in a way where um it was upsetting that person that  I could have done it better so from that failure I've learned that actually in those situations I  need to handle um the announcement in a different way and there's another way of doing it to the way  that I did it and I'm so grateful for that person Having the courage to to tell me about it and  again we're trying to create that environment where people do feel open so what I did about  it was I apologize first and foremost and and it was a heartfelt apology because I was  genuinely upset and sorry that I'd cause this person any stress or or unhappiness and then  I asked please help me in any area that I'm failing in I need to know and if other people are  um moaning or complaining or upset and they aren't going to come to me can you tell me so that I  can try and fix it as well because we're human we make mistakes not everyone's the same me thinking  something good and positive doesn't always have that same repercussions um with everyone as well  so failure is key and it's such a shame that it has a bad and dirty word a bit like mental health  almost you know we're getting a lot better of that but I think it's the school system where  we you know get a 9 out of 10 and we're a failure or what have you and that's not the case you know  we are not failures people aren't failures they may not be good at certain things there's so many  things I'm not good at and there's a few things I'm pretty good at and I really enjoy those and  I'd encourage people to learn what they're good at and what they're not good at and don't worry  about failing and if you're an environment where failing is still a bad word then maybe you need to  try and break free of that I absolutely agree with you I when I talk to my clients I said we need  to normalize failing you know we need to normalize it because it's normal to fail like you just said  if you're trying something new or you're stepping out of your comfort zone you are going to fail if  you're not failing it means that you're stuck I think I think it's a mindset thing very much  um and there's this shame that we attach to failure we think everyone is looking at us  everyone is judging us because we failed well if we can just get past that and just reframe  it to it's a lesson learned I learned something new today then hopefully that will help because  I don't know what you think but I think some people play not to lose rather than play to win  and that is such a big difference between plain not to lose and plain to win  um I think you you actually hold yourself back when you're playing not to lose and it's that  fear of failure that causes people to play not to lose yeah and I understand it like I said I  think it comes from very early in our days and our upbringings and um again that's one of my  encouragements to my team but also my girls as well and other people and young people we've got  the Fantastic young lady who works for us at the weekends and I had a great conversation with her  about trying things you know it's but I wish somebody had taught me this when I was 17 and  why don't you just volunteer for a business you know for a week for free don't ask for any money  and learn what you like and what you don't like and learn it whilst you haven't got a mortgage  and the wife and kids and responsibilities and you can still go back home to mum and dad so you know  encouraging people to fail encouraging people to push the boundaries but it's still quite unusual  and I think you know I forget that sometimes that not every workplace is like that and not  every leader I say loosely more managers are not like that as well but as soon as you can get in  an environment like that or put yourself in a situation where you're surrounded by people that  are happy to be failures um because we go from strength to strength from our failures and if  you think of the likes of Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and and all those people  they uh they've been massive failures some of the things that they've done Steve Jobs was  fired from his own company I mean it doesn't get much more embarrassing and failing than that but  he managed to learn and turn it around and and went on to you know make apple the success it  was and is so very interesting that we can learn from other people's failures absolutely and it's  important to have that growth environment which is what you're describing I would love to come  and work for you James because honestly I think When leaders create that growth environment and  part of creating that growth environment is just taking away that fear of failure from your people  so they can own the mistakes they make and learn from it as long as they are learning they don't  feel like heads are going to roll and that's when people start to hide things that go wrong because  they feel like uh if I told my boss then things are not gonna go very well for me but it's so  important to create that growth environment where people know they can try things and they can be  curious you know to see where this is going to lead very important if I was to ask you what would  you say are you three mantras or keys to success if you like that you you tend to live by um so for me again coming back to mindsets and my own personal mental health and my own mindset  needs to be top-notch in order to be able to lead others um I think having the ability and this is a  John C Maxwell quote but having the ability to see before others and to see more than others  um is a great mindset for a leader you've got to put yourself in a situation where if this happens  and I do that what's going to be the outcome and that's a skill that is learned over many years  and many decisions that you get right and wrong and learning from those so that after many years  of doing that you can make a quick decision and often it becomes the right one and then again just  based on decision you have to make a decision at some point I've worked for people in the past or  been surrounded with people in the past that aren't able to make a decision and it's just  infuriating and it's destructive to companies so there's a quote that Barack Obama used to get  to 51% of the information he needed to be able to make a decision because he waited it at 100% of the  information he would never have made a decision so that's quite extreme but he was running a country  um but what's the you know what's people's percentage of how much information do you need  before you can say yep we're going to do that or no we're going to not do that and so to me  having those kind of abilities to make a decision and stand by it also not to be too proud if it  was the wrong decision great what did we learn we failed let's try again and I think something that  prevents people from making decisions or making it quickly is this fear going back to the sphere of  what if it goes wrong you know um I think in his book Napoleon Hill said successful people have a  habit around decision making they make it very quickly and they seldom change their decisions  once it's made and unsuccessful people also have a habit around decision making they're very slow  to make decisions and it's just that thing of fear but it's it's important like you said to make the  mistakes early on learn from it and move on you're going to be further ahead than those who are still  stuck at point A waiting for the perfect moment and the perfect opportunity before the step out  so absolutely true what would you say has been your biggest life lesson I mean you've had so  many experiences just listening to you talk about your journey and how you came to where  you are today and all the business experiences you've had and the life experiences, if you had  to cast your mind back and just think of all the lessons you've learned and I'm sure there  are many which would you say is probably the biggest one that you've learned that you would  like to pass on to somebody else? It's it's around planning do you have to plan but  be prepared for it not to go to plan and I love you know that you know we have a plan a and we  have a plan B and so on and so forth there's lots of letters in the alphabet so be prepared  have a plan but also be prepared for that not to go to plan because if you're not prepared for it  and things start going off track it can derail you and what you need to do is okay we're taking  a slightly different turn here where's this going what do I need to do and that comes from you know  the ability to sort of plan ahead and different scenarios in your head for what might happen what  will happen if I do this what's that person going to say and what will the result be and I've used  that from interviewing in in you know different countries and appointing people that didn't turn  up and having to quickly change plans to acquiring businesses where the sellers saying at the 11th  hour I don't know that I want to go ahead with this and all these different things that at the  time kind of seemed quite crushing and big that when you look back in hindsight there's stepping  stones in the Journey of learning how to deal with life in general so always plan but be prepared for  your plans to change absolutely it's about being agile isn't it and you know thinking outside the  box John Maxwell say there's nothing like the answer it's just one of the answers so it doesn't  you don't have to find the way there's more than one way of doing it so what you're saying is if  you've planned around a way and that doesn't work understand this another way and don't feel  like it's come to the end of the road because that did not work that is such great advice  um what advice would you give your younger self or someone who is just starting out in  leadership? I wish I tried more things I wish I'd had the courage and the options and the ability  to just try more things in life in work um maybe to have traveled a bit more and learn different  cultures and things things like that I'm fairly well traveled but I would love to have I've done  more of that so my advice to my younger self would be especially you know coming out of University  and college and not having that pressure of um you know a family commitment or a mortgage or  lots of bills is before you get into that just try lots of different things and and embrace all  the learnings from it somebody said um the biggest regret that most people have is that they didn't  try and we all have only one life to leave you know so if you step out and try and do what it is  that you're fill in your heart then you're gonna you're not gonna have those regrets and you're  not gonna want to think oh I wish I could do it all over again so as I start to round up James  I want to go back to something you mentioned when we started you talked about your love for helping  people set and exceed their own amazing 3D goals that sounds intriguing tell me about that so yeah  I absolutely love doing that I've done it in my own personal life and for my team and our family  as well so it's something that I came up with about six years ago we were on holiday in France  and early one morning I was listening and watching some YouTube clips whilst you know checking some  emails and things like that the rest of the family was fast asleep and they were talking  about goal setting I'd heard a goal setting and smart goals and different things and I'd always  thought smart goals were a little bit restrictive I didn't think that goal should be achievable or  attainable and realistic and things like that so I came up with a very simple format and one  that I've taught in schools and universities and colleges as well to business people is that the  amazing 3D goals and it's just 3DS that's where the 3DS come from the first one is around your  dreams what are your dreams and everyone's got a dream so what do you dream what do you desire  from life and the next is to describe that dream or that desire and you wanted to do describe it  with so much passion and energy and focus that anyone you tell it to will get it and understand  it and it will make the hairs on the back of their neck stand up as well so that's the second D and  the last e is to put a date by it a date of when you want to accomplish it by and putting a date  of when you want to accomplish it by turns it from a dream into an amazing 3D goal and it's  very simple I don't think things should be average I think there's so many people living an average  life I want people to live an amazing life I've got over 200 goals that I'm still working on  I've accomplished over a hundred of my own goals some of those are small and just personal to me  some are big in terms of property and holidays and positions and buying companies and so on  and so forth and I love sitting down with people and talking about the different areas of life in  general and helping them set and exceed their own amazing 3D goals I love that I really love that  and like you I I've struggled with this idea of a dream or a goal needing to be realistic because  I've always asked the question realistic to whom you know and I've replaced that with believable I  understand it shouldn't be Airy fairy and all up in the air you know if you can't sing a note then  wanting to be the next Liona Lewis might be too much right so it needs to be believable but yes  like you I've always said no it doesn't have to be realistic it just needs I just need to know that I  can I don't know how I'm gonna do it but I just need to know I can do this and it's what I want  but I absolutely buy into your 3D goals because when I talk to clients I talk about what do you  really want very often we set goals based on what we've been able to achieve in the past or what  someone else thinks we can do or what we think we can achieve but very often I say no just forget  all about that and just think about what do you really want where you're talking about the dream  what is it it if everything was possible for you what would you go for and that's what we really  should be pursuing but obviously then you know putting a date to it turning it from a dream into  a plan somebody said the dream is just a dream a plan or rather a dream is just a dream a goal is a dream with a with a deadline so absolutely love your 3D goals absolutely absolutely love it you  know what James were out of time I could stay and talk with you for the next 30 minutes but  I'm sure you've got things to do but really want to say thank you thank you so much for coming on  the life and Leadership podcast thank you so much I've really enjoyed it thank you for listening to  the life and Leadership podcast if you enjoyed the conversation hit the Subscribe button that  will help us reach more people and inspire more leaders see you on the next episode.