E006: How Communication Impacts Culture and Team performance with Deon Thirumalai

Drawing from his vast experience and in particular his experience working  with Sir Richard Branson and the Virgin Group, Deon Thirumalai shares how leaders can create positive, productive cultures and improve team performance not only through effective communication, but by being intentional in building connections with team members.

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Deon Thirumalai is the Chief Information Officer at Frogfoot a Fibre Network Operator based in South Africa. He has over 26 years of expertise in the industry and his background spans several sections including the non-profit, manufacturing, information and communications technology (ICT), telecommunications, retail, and Education. He has managed large-scale operations with thousands of employees, and his teams have consistently met or exceeded their goals

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You mentioned about the demand on your time and your expertise is high but you're happy doing  it. How do you think it was possible for Virgin to create that sort of environment? It's an easy  one to answer Mary and it comes down to probably one of the most basic things that we've all been  familiar with all our lives which is words so words when articulated in the right way  they have the power to change someone's mind they also have the power to alter your beliefs.  And as a leader when we speak it is exceptionally important  that we recognize that we can build or we can break with what is on the tip of our tongue  that is the kind of leadership that you get out of Virgin it's not about the hierarchy that's in  place it's largely about how we communicate and that engagement is what drives people in  that environment. You're listening to the life and Leadership podcast where leaders from across  the globe share openly about the trials triumphs and Lessons Learned along the leadership Journey.  Whether you're a seasoned new or aspiring leader get ready to receive powerful insights  and practical takeaways to help you grow in your leadership and now here is your host Mary Eniolu. Welcome to the life and Leadership podcast I've got with me today Dion Thirumalai who is a CIO at  Frogfoot, a fiber Network operator based in South Africa. Dion has over 26 years of expertise in the  industry and his background spans several sectors including the non-profit manufacturing information  and Communications technology telecommunications retail and education. Dion has managed large-scale  operations with thousands of employees and hundreds of computer systems and his teams  have consistently met and exceeded their goals Dion it's wonderful to have you on the life and  Leadership podcast today. Mary it's a it's a pleasure to be here thank you. I know you  have a very interesting background with loads of experience and I would like you to share a  little bit of that with our audience just tell us a little bit about your journey and how you  got to where you are today? Sure I started very young age straight out of school got into into the  tech space worked for a a technology company delivering service in computers and printers  Etc and I studied and worked my way up from there and the the step up from that point  um was one that led me to probably the biggest one was Sappy which is a manufacturing environment  they do Pulp and Paper manufacturing on a global scale and I was I was there for six years and I  got a call and I went to work for Virgin um which which is a very well-known brand as you know and I  did a lot of infrastructure and Technology support for five of the Virgin businesses across South  Africa and I left virgin to go work for the water research commission which is a science research  space and focused on water and sanitation research across the globe the business does  amazing work to install running water for example in communities that just don't have it and lastly  I joined Frogfoot literally just last year and that is a fiber Network operator as we spoke  about and that's now looking to expand globally as well. Um so you mentioned that you worked with  Virgin so tell us a little bit about that whole experience. So for Virgin I filled in the space  of infrastructure management um and it was for a number of Virgin businesses but primarily Virgin  Mobile which is a telecommunications brand under the arm and I I got to do the most amazing work  and uh probably what is the best leadership one could ever have Mr Branson himself on some days  and and more often than not the local CEOs Etc that are in charge and it was a vibrant  environment an environment that was driven by I want to say a zest for wanting to get  up every day and go into the office and do what it is that you do. The people and just  the culture that it that's built around it is second to manual ever experience it was  a startup the energy levels are always high the the demand of your your time and your expertise  is equivalently high but you enjoyed every second of it wow the Virgin environment is  built on on the failure element going you're going to do everything and you're going to do  it well and if you fail that's okay we accept it as long as you learn from it and we move on.  Um and it's hard to find a place like that I must admit wow that sounds amazing I mean what you're  just describing I think is the dream for every leader to have that vibrant environment where  everyone is giving a hundred and one percent where everybody's excited to come to work and do what  they do but sometimes it's not as easy to actually create that you may have it on paper, so you  may have a great team that looks great on paper everybody has the right qualifications the right  experience but in terms of the actual culture and this is why we say cultural will always  eat strategy for breakfast; because you may have the strategy to create you know to get the right  people on board but it takes something special something different to actually create a culture  such as you're describing where people actually love coming to work and you mentioned about the  demand on your time and your expertise is high but you're happy doing it. How do you think it  was possible for Virgin to create that sort of environment? I'm really really intrigued! It's an  easy one to answer Mary actually um and it comes down to probably one of the most basic things that  we've all been familiar with all our lives which is words so words when articulated in the right  way they have the power to change someone's mind they also have the power to alter your beliefs  and as a leader when we speak it is exceptionally important  that we recognize that we can build or we can break with what is on the tip of our tongue  wow and of course the same is is very true for life in general and we take those learnings that  I got out of Virgin and I apply that into my daily life and how I run my household or conduct myself  in the shop so in all of the common spaces that we are so it's not just tied to the business World  primarily but that is the kind of leadership that you get out of Virgin it's not about  um the hierarchy that's in place it's not about the Authority or the structure it's largely about  how we communicate and that engagement is what drives people in that environment um that's so  good so so good for me to hear because you're you're preaching to the choir as they say I mean um I'm constantly trying to explain to Business Leaders that you know what will actually set you  apart and what will help your business succeed are those things that we tend to refer to as  soft skills you know the communication the way that you talk to people the things that you the  way you support people you know the care you give to people the way you value people those  are the things that really makes the difference and will cause your team to to be engaged and to  want to give you their best so um really really interesting and how long ago was this you you  were with Virgin I left virgin in 2015. 2015 from 2005 to 2015. so it's just about seven years ago  and just listening to you describe your experience it sounds like it was yesterday so so it's just so  powerful when no honestly when you're as a leader I think it's important that leaders understand the  impact you make can last a lifetime it's not just for that environment that season and get  the person to do a job you can you can change someone's life I mean you were explaining about  how you actually take that and you apply in your personal life in your family so leaders we have  such great responsibility I think in how we can shape people's lives. I'm going to ask you the  question then Deon what what is your definition of leadership? It's not about relying on Authority or  position I think it's rather about leveraging the skills that one has as a leader um exploiting your  own Passions and even your own perspectives and then using that to influence and motivate others.  Mostly it's about making a positive impact on the people who follow you and the organization  as a whole I love those two words motivate and influence some body actually teased me the other day they listen to one of the episodes of the podcast and she was like  oh you and John Maxwell and I'm like yeah I love it I love him I love his quotes I love his whole  outlook on leadership and obviously he's been in the leadership space for years and he he's  always said you know leadership is influenced it's how you influence people and I really buy  into that this idea of influencing people where if you're not there to give specific Direction  they still know what is expected of them because you've passed on something that that is stayed  with them so I love I love the words influence and and motivation but what would you say to a leader  who says to you oh that's all well and good but people people need to know who is in charge wow um I think if we had to look at leadership and how it's changed over the years it's  largely going to be tied that kind of thinking would largely be tied back to  I guess the knowledge that we had or employed about leadership 20 30 years ago  um which is we can't deny that there's been a drastic shift between the knowledge we  had then and the knowledge we had now so to someone who's still operating in that space  um my my best advice would be you've got to upskill your knowledge with what the latest  research tells you um but more importantly I think it is a personality trait we've got to notice that  there's this massive Evolution that has happened in the field of leadership and the autocratic  command and and demand style of leadership is is long since gone  um these days it's it's a lot more common knowledge that if you want to be a strong  leader then you then you are aware that you have to be able to control your own emotions  as well as those of your team members and you have to I I want to say Foster productive connections  really personality and connection and if you can drive those two aspects of yourself with your  people you'll get the results that you need out of the team without having to be an authoritarian  you're using several words that I like I love that word connection  um it's not always that easy to connect with people though and you also mentioned  obviously about the fact that we have different personalities which can be a challenge how do  you build that connection and I think more so now where we've got remote working we've  got hybrid working I think it's perhaps even more challenging to build those connections but if even  more important to be able to do that so how as a leader do you go about navigating the different  personality Styles and the difference I suppose needs and different motivators of of your team  to build those connections simply put I I think the term goes back the term goes back a number  of years but we've all heard it a number of times and it's called servant leadership um and as as  servant leadership has largely taken over pretty much every organization that exists today at a at  a global scale for sure um one has to recognize that as a leader you are a servant to the people  much like the government is to the people of that country wherever it is that it serves um the same  is true for leadership and when you recognize that you're a servant then you've got to know  the personality that attaches to being a servant which is one of not necessarily  always being subservient but recognizing that your people's needs come way before yours do  um that connection for me is easily maintained by communication so I delve into the detail of of  the individuals that for my team I know and I make it my business to know um what are the kids names  what's your wife name what's your family structure look like what do you do on the weekends what are  your hobbies what interests you what excites you and when I know all of those things I attach that  to the person and it gives you a picture of who the individual is and what they're about  and it becomes a lot easier to manage people when you understand their background you understand the  cultural differences and you understand the frames within which they might exist today  and how those things can change and affect their behavior on a day-to-day basis yeah.  Does that make sense? It makes absolute sense it makes absolute perfect sense I mean when  you talk about taking on the personality of a servant leader so what I hear you saying is  irrespective of your natural personality as a person as a leader if you if you maintain  that disposition of servant leader then your outlook is always about how can I help this  person how can I serve this person and that that outrides your own inhibitions or your own  natural way of doing things or whatever so you can bring that you know under the this desire  this overriding desire to make the next person better to help them succeed. For instance if I'm  an introvert as a leader but my desire is to serve and when I am putting that desire above my  personality of being an introvert, then that desire perhaps will help me step out of my comfort  zone of wanting to stay by myself and shy away from people; to to make me want to communicate and  engage with people. So I I love that I love that because that will help me actually continually  step out of my comfort zone when I'm not making it about me but making about about those that I  serve. But the other thing you talked about was this idea of actually getting to know your people  um and again I'm loving everything you're saying one thing that leaders mention when you try and  encourage them to get to know their people as people not just as the position they they  or the role they play in the organization not just as an accountant or as a solicitor as an  engineer but to know them as a person is the time that that takes because it takes time it  takes time to have a conversation with someone where you're not just saying okay what's going  on with that project or whatever how how do you how do you make it work with all the other  demands you have as a leader? Because I think that's a genuine thing that somebody would ask.  That is very demanding on your time and there's no debate about that um but the reality is we  make meetings every day all day and there's an eight hour day typically in everyone's calendar  I'm pretty sure you can carve out an hour once a day once a week four or five times a month to get  to know your team better in a personal level. It does not necessarily mean that you're not doing  your work simply because you're having a meeting with a team member in a one-on-one space trying  to understand who they are and what they're about it means that you're investing in the  future because when you have that relationship and you've established it it becomes a lot easier for  you to work together, because you know what makes that person tick and that person understands you  better and your own Point of Departure and they will absolutely go to the ends of the  Earth to deliver what needs to be done because we have a relationship that is not just about  hierarchy about I'm the manager to XYZ absolutely so it's an investment it's an investment and I  suppose the other way you can think about it as a leader is what's the alternative the alternative  is to leave room for misunderstandings for conflict which is going to cost you time to  resolve when those conflicts arise so you may as well be proactive and invest that time in  something that is going to be productive for the organization, rather than firefighting. So this  is a this is what leadership is you're being proactive and you're you're you're going first  you're making sure you're putting things in place that will prevent all the firefighting and all the  backstabbing and all the complaints that you will then have to have to deal with and all that will  take your time. So tell us if you look back on your life if there was one person you had to pick  to say thank you to so you know one person that has really influenced you made massive  contributions to the person that you are today who would that person be and why? It's twofold  um if I'm allowed to answer it that way but the the person who's probably  inspired and shaped me to be who I am the most is my mom, um and she's been  The Guiding Light since I was a child and really just instilled and encouraged and built  um these values that one cannot walk away from because they've become who you are and they've  shaped me Shaped me largely but I do have a story actually attached to the same uh which which ties  back to to my dad when we spoke about the Power of Words which we did a couple of questions ago  I I firmly believe that the leadership is intertwined with how we speak all right and  and my dad left when I was an 11 year old kid so I grew up in a single parent home I had two  siblings and and when my dad left in my crystal clear recollection of the day he told me that "I  will never amount to anything and that I will live on the streets and have nothing" now fast forward  um as I just told you about my mum who's been the person who was there and present of course through  all of that and did her best to ensure that she installed a different set of values in a different  mindset into me so technically I'm grateful to both my parents then but to my mom who eventually  got me to to the space that I am so my dad leaving actually turned out to be the best day and the  biggest motivator of my life because today that is the day that I use to encourage myself when  I'm looking deep down to find the motivation to do more to be more to deliver more when I want to  build myself and also when I want to Center myself just to recognize you know who I actually am  but to ensure that my Point of Departure is always one that is coming from a point of humility and  never a autocracy that my spoken words have so much power the goal is always to build  and it's never to break so I have him to thank for that which means that words are the most important  thing that I embrace in my life today. Wow that is awesome that is that is just so powerful  um because we all have experiences in life we all have you know some some good some not so  good but I think the important thing is to draw the positive from every experience and so for  you to say actually the day your dad walked out and to say those words and obviously it  would have hurt especially to hear it from your father you know if you hear it from a teacher it  would be hurtful but to hear from your father you must have heard but for you thank God you  had a mother who you know raised you differently and had opposite words to say to you but you were  able to come away from that experience and it helped you to say this is how not to talk  right so this is how not to talk this is how not to be I don't wanna because some people  will come away from that completely broken they say hurt people hurt people and because they're  hurt they go on and hurt people but you know a lot of credit to your mother that was there  that helped you maybe unpack that and helped you change you know the effects that that could have  had on you to become something positive when now this idea of building with your words is clearly  something that's important to use come up twice already since we've been speaking and a lot of  that goes back to experience so it's just really interesting to hear how you know experiences we've  had in the past shapes us for good or bad not just you but everybody who is on your team everybody  that engages with you has your father to thank for that so that you know you have that experience and  now you can say completely I'm going the opposite direction. Exactly that. That's wonderful so if  you had to pick three leadership traits that you would say I really think for every leader these  three are important what what will those three be for you. I believe that my own leadership style  is linked to that of a transformational leader um considering the theory today my focal point  is always to try as much as possible to inspire and motivate as I mentioned earlier and  that's for my team for the organization as a whole and largely just to ensure  that everyone achieves their full potential and they contribute to our shared Vision but  in terms of our qualities I think empathy is probably right at the top of my list when I say  I want to cultivate an environment of of trust of cooperation with the people  that are under my care then the emotional trait of of empathy and compassion almost  um will always be entrenched in my actions so so that's going to be my first one I think my second  one perhaps adaptability I would say that I want to quickly be able to adjust to a new situation  or an environment because the world has changed and that the static just doesn't exist anymore  we're in a constant change of state of flux and I need to encourage and help my followers  to do the same which is adapt and I think I must recognize that that through success requires them  to learn or all of us as a team collectively to experiment to to change um and I think I follow  and show those particular adaptability traits in how I conduct the team for a third one  I think I'd probably choose Visionary having a clear and a compelling vision for the future is  a must-have I think as a leader being able to explain that in a way that it inspires  the team and motivates them is a must-have character trait um yeah if you as a leader  can see that big picture and you're able to to spot the trends and and the opportunities that  might exist in in the marketplace and be able to share that Vision in a way that your people can  consume it in a way that it brings them together to serve that common purpose that you're trying  to drive then being a Visionary is going to be of massive value to you yeah absolutely I think those  three are really important so you mentioned you mentioned the word success there so I'm going to  ask you what what does success mean to you Dion? from all of the definitions that one could find  this is the one definition that speaks probably the most to me so successes going beyond the  typical external markers that would probably exist um and seeing a state of personal fulfillment  um and satisfaction and just being able to make a positive difference to the people that you  get to interact with in this world. Yeah I love that because you know like you mentioned about  markers you know everybody has an expectation of what success should look like but if externally  you seem to hit all those points but you're not happy you're not fulfilled you don't feel like  you're making any impact then you might not feel like you're successful so it's important I think  that we are we are clear on our values and the things that matter to us and if we can hit that  then we're successful it doesn't always have to translate into millions in the in the bank I don't  think yeah. So This Is The Life and Leadership podcast and I really love when you refer to your  mom when I asked you the question who is that one person that's made such a difference in  your life that you would like to thank because very often when we talk about leadership we're  talking in the context of business and and yes that's important but for me and that's why I I  wanted to call this the life and Leadership podcast I really think leadership permeates  every aspect of our of Our Lives you know the most important kind of leadership I think is  self-leadership so leadership is not necessarily about leading the team so just thinking about life  and Leadership how important is it for one to lead well at home do you think it's vitally important  um you you cannot simply just stop being a leader because it got to to 5 PM and the clocks tipped  over to 501 for your family um they're all looking for a leader and and as the male  in the household the one expects that that you would take up that charge and and run with it so  it's it's all vital importance that you hold that leadership role and you emulate the right  personality traits um that will build and Inspire and give the kids something to to look up to  um when you use my own personal experience as as the example exactly you know you recognize all of  the things that that one could do wrong um and you have to take away that that leading starts  actually at home absolutely I think for every parent to understand actually I am a leader and  I'm leading the most important people in the world my family and to come with that attitude and that  um that mindset I think is important so we lead by example someone asks you tell us about one  time you failed because I love when we started and we're talking about a growth environment  when you were describing your time at virgin and you talked about how they deliberately created a  growth environment well yes we wanted to excel but when in our striving to excel when things go wrong  we're not chopping off heads uh but we're we're letting people fail as long as they're learning  from it so tell us of some time you failed how you dealt with it and what you learned from it  very recent example of disappointment in myself and it's it's very easy to read call so I'm going  to lean on that for for this question Mary um last month I had an individual on my team resign and he  uses the second most senior member of my team and I I took it personally, so this resignation for me  felt like a failure to me and that was that Simon sinek who said that people don't leave jobs they  leave managers, they leave people yeah, yeah um and that stuck with me since I got that document  the go my goal has always been to foster a pleasant and a  happy workspace for the people that that get to work with me and and when an employee quits  felt like it might have been a sign that he was dissatisfied with some facet  of either the company or or myself as a leader or what I found really difficult to accept was  that the the exit was imminent and I'd failed to deliver something that this individual needed  and it came from a loss of of many things maybe he couldn't communicate with me adequately maybe  I didn't communicate clearly enough or I didn't pay attention as close as I should have but I I I  gave it much thought and and after fighting a few internal battles with myself um I think I've come  to realize more recently as in over the past two weeks that whilst I do still feel some guilt about  um what had happened I I also need to take an objective view of the issue  um and view it as a as a chance for perhaps self-improvement rather than than a reflection  of my own personal failure so just taking a step back and analyzing the elements that led up to  the resignation has taught me a few things about myself about departing your employee and and also  it's taught me a lot about the person that I'd be looking for when I'm for refilling this this  rule it had nothing to do with me as a manager or the company um you know it sometimes is literally  just triggered by a wide range of external factors that one really can't control. No that's true and  in in the majority perhaps of cases it is it is true that people don't leave companies that leave  people, they leave and most of the time they're living because of their manager. But obviously  it's not always the case there are those times when people leave jobs you know you have great  relationships well like you say there are other factors that come to play it might just be the  salary; it might just come down to the salary. So in that case they are leaving the job they are not  living because of a person. But I can understand especially if you're a leader who really wants to  create that environment where people are happy and you really do your best to do that I can  understand how you can take it personal. Right I'm gonna ask two more questions so  what would you say has been your biggest life lesson? Probably the most important  thing to learn is the value of time and when you recognize that it is as fleeting as it is then  what you prioritize and how you conduct yourself will be vastly different to if you didn't value  time yeah time with with uh with people with your loved ones with your family with your  friends time to communicate to get the messages that need to get out to people out to people  um expressing how important they might be in your life expressing how you feel it all comes  down to managing that that big element called time because none of us are guaranteed that  tomorrow as we all know and if we value time which is something I've come to learn over many  years then we will say what's important today and not wait for tomorrow. Oh that is so good  that is so good and it makes me really appreciate this time we're spending together because this is  you giving me your time so no absolutely so good. I think that is one um perspective that  everyone every day has to just have you know to understand this is a gift today is a gift  um and I have 24 hours and it's my responsibility to make sure I make the best use of this 24 hours  for things that are really really important and when we live our lives from that place I think  it makes it easier as well when we have to make decisions because you then are focusing on the  things that are important you know just wasting wasting the time because time really is precious  isn't it it's that one thing that you can never replace you can never pay for it you know once  it's gone it's gone so yeah absolutely love that. So, what advice would you give to someone that is  just going into leadership something you know now that you wish you had known where when you first  went into leadership? I would suggest that if you are a leader today and you're just starting out  you set the bar exceptionally high and you lead by example so the ability to work hard  and to treat others with respect is essential so don't expect others to help you become what you  want to be the most important qualities that you need to display today is is one that that is off  communication so communicate effectively I can't stress how crucial it is for a new leader to  embrace communication within their teams ensuring that how we communicate is is crystal clear  and it's honest. Um, again if you're starting out today then you probably prefer to get things done  by yourself so you're used to doing things and you've been newly promoted or appointed to the  role so you're someone who who gets stuff done up until this point but what you will need to do  is hone in your delegation skills, so trust your team members and encourage them to deliver  what's needed and you will see them grow as individuals and they'll become contributors  if you wanted to earn that that respect to that loyalty then focus on building those relationships  we talked about earlier with your team members ensuring that it is a two-way street and that we  know each other as intimately as we need to in order to conduct ourselves in a manner that is  going to be productive that's good thank you thank you thank you so much for coming on the life and  Leadership podcast it's been enlightening, it's been encouraging, it's just been really  inspiring so thank you so much. Mary thank you very much I appreciate your time it's been an  absolute pleasure the life and Leadership podcast is brought to you by can do Academy where we help  organizations build High performing teams and extraordinary leaders to find out how we do  that please get in touch or check us out at candoacademy.net see you next time. Thank you  for listening to the life and Leadership podcast if you enjoyed the conversation hit the Subscribe  button that will help us reach more people and Inspire more leaders see you on the next episode.