Hey everyone, it's Christina. I wanted to let you guys know that when a scheduler reached out to me recently about today's guest, I was so moved that I began to cry. That's actually never happened to me. Nobody wants to talk about kids with cancer, but this story is so incredibly inspiring. I don't know if I have ever met anyone quite as inspiring as Gretchen Witt.
She's been featured in People Magazine. She's led an incredibly courageous life, interviewed on the Today Show, profiled in the Wall Street Journal, as well as CNN, Good Morning America, Oprah Magazine, The Huffington Post, and recognized as Women's Day Magazine's 50 Women Who Are Changing the World.
Totally, totally agree with that. She's also the author of Cookies for Kids Cancer, Best bake sale which became a bestseller on Amazon. She's described as inspirational, offering a message of strength and determination that is perfect for so many people. Welcome, welcome Gretchen. How are you girlfriend?
I am like just in awe of your presence and I'm not even done with my intro of you. I just wanted to say welcome and I have to continue on here, but it's great to see your beautiful face. So today's guest is Gretchen Witt, founder of the nonprofit organization, Cookies for Kids Cancer, following her son, Liam's cancer diagnosis at just two years old, Gretchen Witt led a major bake a thon that.
Served up 96, 000 cookies and $420, 000 for pediatric cancer research and didn't stop there. Now credited with saving the field of pediatric cancer research by world renowned pediatric cancer research oncologist, David Poplik, MD, Gretchen is the driving force behind Cookies for Kids Cancer, and their ongoing progress.
Gretchen carries on Liam's legacy through Cookies for Kids Cancer. The organization has granted nearly 20 million dollars, you guys, and brought 25 new treatments across the finish line to date. With independent review from a medical advisory board of top researchers, their uniquely transparent funding model backs the most promising early research, making sweeter futures possible for children with cancer.
There are now bake sales in Liam's honor every year across the country and around the world. More than 8, 000 events in 18 countries. I have never had such a long intro, but Gretchen. I cannot tell you how honored I am to have you with me today. Thank you so much for coming on She's Brave.
Oh, my gosh. stop, stop.
Like, I mean, honestly, first and foremost, thank you so much. I'm so excited and just honored that you would take interest enough and want to share the story because I always believe that knowledge is power. But the other thing I want to say is that. I really truly don't believe like I have done anything yet and until we've achieved the goal of pediatric cancer, not being the number 1 disease killer of kids in the US. Number 1, like, who knew that? No, I didn't know that until my son. I didn't know that. No, I didn't know that. I had no idea. Um, but until, we achieved that goal. Let's just keep at it.
There's no resting on laurels because there's no laurels to rest on.
Yeah. Now, this is a hard topic for a lot of people, but I feel like there is so much that we can learn from someone like you. I mean, I would say a lot of people's worst fears. It's like their number one fear in life is the death of their child.
It definitely was mine for a really, really long time as well. And you've experienced it. So take us back to the beginning and tell us a little bit more about getting that diagnosis and how you coped with it. I mean, it is. Absolutely. the worst scenario that you can imagine. Um, so Liam. And his little sister Ella were 13 months old.
Ella was 13 months old. Liam was two and a half. Um, and I took him to preschool on a Monday. I then took him to the pediatrician for a well visit. Because I just felt like there was something off. And even though everything seemed normal, and he was the right height, and the right weight, and he was hitting all the milestones that your children are supposed to be hitting, I just had this nagging suspicion that there was something that was off.
So, picked him up from preschool. took him to the pediatrician. The pediatrician handed me a prescription and said, okay, so I'm going to order a chest x ray and abdominal ultrasound and a CBC. And I was like, okay, okay. So we're really going to figure this out. Great. So how soon should I do this? He said, well, you should do it soon, but you don't have to do it right now.
And I literally took my son, put him in his car seat, got in the car, drove to the closest hospital, which is actually where he had been born, walked into the outpatient scheduling room, handed the piece of paper to a woman who didn't even look up at me, like her head was down and she didn't even look up and she answered, I can get one of these done today, but two of them are going to take a little bit of time to schedule.
And as she raised her head to look at me. Our eyes locked and she immediately said, you know what, we're going to figure this out. We'll get the schedule today. And she said, you might be here for hours, but we will get it scheduled today. And I said, okay, thank you. By that night, I was led into a room, which is the room where normally radiologists would be reading x rays and other kinds of scans.
And the room, it was kind of space age, because it was dark, but all you could see were glowing monitors in the room. And literally a woman handed me a phone. It was red. And at the other end of the line was my son's pediatrician saying, Gretchen, Liam has an 18 centimeter tumor in his abdomen. We don't know what it is, but we're admitting you right now.
And we will figure this out. And that's when I knew that my life would never be the same, never. And while I didn't know at that point that it was cancer, I knew that there was something major that was going on. So I just started that odyssey of, uh, becoming engrossed in the world of pediatric cancer.
I mean, in less than 24 hours, we knew that Liam had cancer. It was probably another 36 hours. We found out that he had stage 4 cancer at that point in time. I didn't know that kids got cancer. And I also didn't know that the cancers that kids got were different than the cancers that adults get.
I had no idea. I didn't know that it's the number one disease killer. But the other thing that I really didn't know is that pediatric cancers as a whole received one of the smallest slices of funding.
I didn't know that either. And when I connected with you, I was just shocked to learn that.
Right. Right.
Of course. But why are you shocked? You're shocked because you and I believe that in our society, we do everything we can to protect our children. We think about the clothing on their bodies, the foods that they eat, the , sunscreen on their skin. We think about the helmets on their heads, everything.
So why wouldn't we be putting as much attention as we possibly can into the number one disease killer? And I believe that it's because , there's two reasons. I think that it's because it's so scary that people just want to put their fingers in their ears and go, la, la, la, la, la.
This doesn't happen. Totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah. If I, if I don't talk about it, it doesn't exist and therefore I don't have to think about it. The reality is, and what most pediatric oncologists will tell you is that kids can't advocate for themselves the way that adults can. And an adult has a much stronger voice to advocate for themselves than a two year old or a three year old or a four year old.
And I think there's something to it. I mean, I definitely think that there is something to it. And so if you're not going to listen to kids voices, then I'm going to do everything I can in my power to make sure that we adults who control where the funding goes, know about this need and have a way that they can help.
And so fast forward a little bit. Yeah. I know. There was a time where. You went through a lot of treatment with Liam and you thought that, he was in the all clear, right? Like you thought he was in the all clear and then it came back and tell us more about that time.
So, he was in the all clear and people use the word remission a lot.
His kind of cancer is one that is never in remission. It is either there or it's called NED, which stands for no evidence of disease. So he was in a period of time when he had no evidence of disease. And I was so eternally grateful because he was lucky to get to that stage. A lot of kids who have his kind of cancer diagnosis never achieve that status. And so I was literally skipping around singing, um, thinking that the world is just the most amazing place, which it is, it is. But I was so grateful that I wanted to do something to give back to kids who did not achieve no evidence of disease. The holidays were coming up.
Um, I knew about a treatment. It was in development. Everybody around the holidays is looking for a gift that they can give somebody that has meeting that they feel good about giving their money towards, but that the recipient also feels good about receiving and who doesn't like good cookies.
And then my other thing that I was thinking about is the fact that what we were talking about earlier, nobody wants to think about kids who get cancer. Nobody wants to think about cancer, let alone kids who get cancer. But if. you can broach it in a way where somebody is open to having the conversation, I think that you stand a much better chance of bringing people into the conversation.
That's where the whole concept of good cookies came up. So I love it. Yeah, to make 96, 000 cookies. There is a reason why 96, 000. At the time, I knew about 80 families who had a child who was going through, um, cancer treatment. I had read a story that said that the average Girl Scout sells 100 boxes of cookies.
So I did the math, 80 times 100 is 8, 000. Okay, that's 96, 000 cookies. Okay. Okay. We can do that. I called a lot of friends who were professional bakers and basically, I was looking for somebody to tell me that no, I couldn't do it. Like I was crazy. I'll Nobody told me that they were all like, no, no, no, do it, do it, do it.
And so that's what started the, okay, I guess I'll do it. And it was really scary because , I was afraid of failing. And then at some point I did that paradigm shift where I thought to myself, all right, so I feel what people are going to get mad at me for trying to help.
People are going to get mad because I had the audacity to dream big and to do something audacious. and once I did that paradigm shift, it really helped to calm me. And just think, all right, well, let's see what we can do with this whole thing. Oh, Gretchen that, that I just had to interrupt you because like, that is just gold.
Like that is gold. And that is exactly one of the big differences that I've noticed in podcasting between the people that make it and those that don't . And I love the way you phrase it paradigm. Paradigm shift. And I had to go through that paradigm shift myself of saying, what's the worst thing that can happen?
People say, I hate your podcast. That was a really crappy episode. You're going to fail. And then I fail. Oh, well, like life goes on. I mean, what do I have to lose? I don't have anything to lose, you know?
Right. Right. I mean, like, . What do you have to lose that you tried something and it didn't work out.
Yeah, yeah, I'm just deeply curious also about. So when you started the fundraising for the cookies. Did you. No, the full extent of how underfunded pediatric cancer research was at that point, you did. Oh, yeah. Very, very aware. In fact, as I said, um, I knew that there was a treatment that was in development.
That was the inspiration behind the 96, 000 to begin with, but , there was enough money to make the current iteration of the treatment. Or you would have to stop making the current one, which my son was receiving in order to move funds to make the new one. And I thought that's just ridiculous. That's ridiculous that you have to stop making the current one in order to fund the new one.
So there was actually a group of parents who got together. Our kids were all battling the same type of cancer and parents did all different kinds of things. There was parents who rode their bikes across the country. They were doing, um, marathons. They were doing all kinds of things. I'm not a marathoner.
I will never be a marathoner. I did not want to ride my bike across the country because I didn't want to be away from my children. I. Wanted to stay as close to home as possible. And that's where the concept of doing the cookies came from. Unfortunately, um, as you alluded to, Liam was cancer free at the time.
A few months later, um, he relapsed and it was at that point in time when everybody was saying to me, well, we've hit a nerve with people. There's something here. There's something that we can grab onto and inspire other people. So we started setting up the foundation as a year round organization.
My husband and I spent close to a year on it. Right before we launch is when Liam relapsed and that's when I said, well, now we really have to do it because he's going to need more treatment options. So it was something that I did originally because it was the right thing to do. And then. It became a, Oh, shoot.
Now he's somebody who could potentially benefit from these treatments that we're helping to fund.
Wow. Yeah. Just, just amazing. You and I were chatting before we hit record and you know , there's a little bit of similarity in that, you know, I cared 12 years with, with early onset Alzheimer's and, um, not too long ago, I was visiting my mother in Canada and she said to me, Christina, you've really had a hard life.
And she said, yeah, you're really, really happy. And, I don't think of myself as really having had that hard of a life. And it's just amazing about mindset. And you're just like grinning at me. Like you're a very cheerful, upbeat person. Like I am. And I'm just really deeply curious about , how did that come about with everything you've been through?
Gosh, I don't think anybody's ever asked me that question. Um, see you're a great podcaster. You're welcome. Um, how did that come about? Liam is always with me. No matter what, he is always with me. And for me, the story becomes a tragic one if we don't do something to try to make it better for other people.
I love this. So for me, , He's like, he's sitting on my shoulder. He's with me every step of the way.
Um, that's so funny that you say that because I feel like my late husband is there with me too on my journey. We, so we, have very, it's very similar in a lot of ways, but it's, it's, it's very similar because , there's that strong thread of what we went through and loving somebody, and your journey was a lot longer than mine. But 4 years is a long time to, to have your life hanging in the balance bad test result. And I think at the end of the day, I know that Liam would not want me to be sad with that said I'm smiling and you and I are having a good time talking.
Is there a part of me that will always be sad? Absolutely. Absolutely. But that's a very personal part of me that you don't necessarily see but it's it's grief is I don't know what it's like for you. But for me I always Liking grief to carrying a pebble. Sometimes I can put the pebble in my pocket and I'm okay Sometimes it feels more like a boulder that I'm carrying around my neck and those are the bad days, but it's always there And it's always with me, it's just it manifests itself differently on different days.
And I also strongly maintain that I just feel pretty confident that I will see Liam again. And I know sure than , you know, the sky is blue and grass is green. That the very 1st question he will ask me, and it will be his expectation is, did you make it better for others? Wow.
You know, and that's, I think a deep key to your incredible happiness is you have such deep meaning and purpose in your life to help others.
I was thinking about it this morning and I was thinking, I don't care who you are at some point in your life, there's going to be somebody who's going to get a bad diagnosis.
What advice would you give to that person, whether that be their child or their parent or their spouse or whoever?
Gosh. Um, I mean, . Um, I think the first thing that My number one piece of advice is if you get a bad diagnosis, there's a couple of things that you need to think about. Number one is you really want to make sure that your loved one is getting the care that he or she needs.
And when I say that, um, Here's what I mean. You need to ask the doctor who is treating your loved one? Have you treated this diagnosis? Yes or no? How many times have you treated this diagnosis? And then this is gonna be the hardest question to ask, but what were the outcomes? And the reason why that is so important is because if you don't hear.
Things that make you feel confident that that person is going to be the right person to treat your loved one, then you need to keep looking around. I think that when we get a bad diagnosis, our natural gut reaction is to look at a doctor and say, well, can you fix this? Can you fix this? And because , we're so desperate because , you just want to fix it and make it better right away.
And you need to take a step back , and not just jump, but to think about it and ask, have you fixed this? How many times have you fixed it? And what were the outcomes? I love that.
That's such great advice. That's such great advice. So we do know that, that Liam did pass and, what does life look like today?
Oh my gosh. Um, well, let's see. So here's the way that it looks today, actually, you are finding this out before most people are finding out. We just released our 2023 grants. We're now over 21 million that has been granted.
Oh, wow. Congratulations. That's amazing.
I can clearly say that we are through the pandemic. Um, which gosh was so hard. There is a stat that I have read many, many times saying that up to a third of all nonprofits in the US were in jeopardy of closing during the pandemic. I did not know that. Isn't that, but it makes total sense, but it does make sense.
Makes total sense. It has been a hustle since March of 2020. Yeah. But here's the thing that I find so curious. So we raise money in several different ways. There are cookies that are available, um, 365 days a year, and 100 percent of the profits of our cookies go towards pediatric cancer research. Um, so , that's one way, um, people can make a straight donation or become a monthly member.
Um, we have a monthly program called the cookie jar. Appropriately that it does come with cookies too. Um, and then we also have large scale events, which are called chefs for kids, cancer, because Liam wanted to be a chef when he grew up, um, which are also incredibly successful, but we hadn't been able to have them for.
Three and four years because of the pandemic and then the true heart and soul of the organization which you talked about is people having grassroots events there have now actually been close to 17, 000 grassroots events in all 50 states and 26 countries and the people who have grassroots events range in age from six to 96.
It is amazing, and I think that there's something. cathartic that happens when people get together for a common cause and are baking because , , it's an act of love. It's a demonstrative act of doing something that somebody else will appreciate and benefit from. So, in terms of, uh, what life is like on a day to day basis, it's being mom to my daughter, Ella, who is the love of my life and, um, just gives me so much joy and she's the one who helped me get through very, very, very difficult times and How, how old is she now?
She is 17. She, um. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I'm mom to Ella , and obviously a wife to my husband who has an incredibly busy job. And my job as being the executive director of the organization is different every day. There is no day that is the same. And there is always something, always something.
That happens every day, that is a connection with somebody who found out about us, has been involved, was inspired, that is so grounding because it reminds me of why Liam would want us to keep doing what we're doing.
Yep. Yep. So many of the things that you said, I resonated with so much on a personal level, like that, you know, how, you know, yeah, you know, how Liam wants you to live your life.
And I feel the same way about my late husband. I know how he wants me to live my life and you know, they want us to be happy and there's no reason why we can't. And yes, that sadness does come back and, certain things will trigger it, but that doesn't mean that we can't still have an amazing beautiful life. And, I just have the other thing that's so amazing about you to me is to get the worst diagnosis. Um, you know , have the thing that is probably the number one fear on the planet of every parent happened to you. And to not only just get through it, I think most people just barely muster through that whole process. But just, it's really. Amazing to me how you turned it around, you know, and you just, you made it into this incredible thing that's happening in the world. You literally are changing the world and Liam's up there. He's nodding, he's like, that's my mom. And I know, I like, I know he is, I know he is.
We recently, um, uh, two weeks ago we had a conversation with the head of our medical advisory board. , um, uh, Um, who leads up a separate team of pediatric oncologist from the leading pediatric cancer research hospitals across the country, and they evaluate each grant request using the same criteria that the National Cancer Institute uses. And. that is because we want to fund the strongest science. There are dozens of kinds of pediatric cancers. Something that I didn't know, like I thought there was leukemia, but I did not know that there are dozens of kinds of cancers that are specific to children. We fund all of them. Our requirement is that we fund the strongest science that has the best chance of getting from a lab to a child's bedside in the shortest period of possible.
Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? Yep. But , what our medical advisory board chair was saying is that this year alone, the projects that we are funding are just so inspiring , and utilizing. Medical advances that have happened just since I've been in this arena, which is crazy because you can see that we are on the cusp of making so many advances and changes and it's.
It's incredibly exciting and you know, just in terms of when I think about my son, there are kids who are going off to college who are in high school now who are receiving treatments for the kind of cancer that he battled neuroblastoma. Who are thriving and they are doing amazing. And so you can see the change happening.
And the amazing thing I think is that each one of us , wants to know that at the end of the day, our life has meaning and our life had purpose and our life had an impact and something as simple as having a bake sale can make an impact. And that's crazy. That's awesome. This is incredible. I mean, you are so inspiring.
I think you have no idea how many people's lives you have impacted. Not just, I'm not just talking about the cancer research. I'm talking about just saying I started it with a bake sale. What an inspiration to women all around. The world. I'm tearing up here. Um, Gretchen, anything else that, Oh, actually I have a surprise for you.
I have a surprise before we wind it up. I want to get any last words of advice, but, you know,- , as I said, this has been the most touching, inspiring, incredible story, uh, um, You know, person that I've had on my podcast is it's you. And I just want to say thank you for what you're doing. And I hope that my listeners jump on the bandwagon and I want to jump on the bandwagon too.
So you don't know this, but I'm going to be writing you a check for 500 towards the research for Liam. Of course, of course, no, no, it's, it's just, I want to do it. And, um, I hope that that funds five hours of research.
Cool. I love it. I love it's just amazing how it started out with a bake sale and it's amazing how just selling some cookies and all the, all these little things have led to 21 million in research.
You've literally changed the world. This is incredible. Do you have any last words of advice for , my female listeners out there? Maybe they're thinking of starting a business or they're going through something really hard. What's your advice?
That's a great question. Here's , my biggest piece of advice is when things seem really tough and things seem overwhelming, don't look too far ahead. Try to make it through the next five minutes. Think about time in, in little blocks, because if you start to go too far down the path, it , can become overwhelming , and you will spin out of control.
And there were days that I would be in the hospital with Liam and things were so scary. The things were just so tenuous, and sheer terror is the best way to describe them. And I used to think to myself, okay, if I can make it through the next minute, I can probably make it another minute. And so I would just look at my watch.
I would look at a clock in the room and just watch the time go by and say, okay, okay, I made it through a minute. And then I would increase it a little bit and a little bit and a little bit. I think that my Best piece of advice that I share with people who are going through difficult times is don't look too far ahead.
Stay in the present, stay in the immediate, and take baby steps in trying to make it through.
Yeah. Beautifully, beautifully said. Thank you so much, Gretchen, for taking time out of your insanely busy lives out there saving the children. on our planet. I appreciate you coming and sharing your message and your story with me and my listeners.
Thank you so much,
Gretchen. The pleasure is all mine. We can't do what we do without people like you. So thank you for sharing the message. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to tell the story. Um, I I'm just incredibly appreciative. So thank you.
