Pop-Tarts & Chocolate Milk With Dr. Jill Joyce

Discover the secrets to a healthier, more resilient body as Dr. Jill Joyce joins us to unravel the unique nutritional challenges faced by firefighters. With her expertise as a nutrition professor and her personal connection to the tactical community, Dr. Joyce offers an in-depth look at the "healthy worker effect" and its potential to mask serious health conditions. By promoting gradual habit changes over restrictive diets, Dr. Joyce advocates for sustainable approaches like the Mediterranean and DASH diets, tailored to combat prevalent health concerns amongst our firefighting heroes.

Navigating the often overwhelming world of health and nutrition, this episode provides a lifeline for first responders grappling with daunting health results. Dr. Joyce underscores the importance of seeking personalized support from registered dietitians, potentially covered by insurance, to manage the stress accompanying these challenges. Delving into the crucial link between diet and mental health, we discuss dietary strategies that hold the power not just to nourish the body, but also to fortify the mind against the rigors of first responder duties.

Concluding with actionable advice for our everyday heroes, we explore how simple nutritional tweaks can significantly enhance on-duty performance and recovery. From discussing the unexpected benefits of common supplements to sharing tips on healthier eating habits during shifts, Dr. Joyce arms firefighters with knowledge to stave off dietary deficiencies and optimize overall well-being. Tune in for a transformative journey of health empowerment, accompanied by the inspiring sounds of Wayne John Bradley, and take the first step towards igniting the fire within for a stronger, healthier life on the front lines.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

This is All Clear Firefighter Health and Wellness where we help you light your fire within. I'm Travis, good to have you here today. We've got another wonderful guest with us. We have Jill, dr Jill Joyce Excuse me, let me get the doctor in there Dr Jill Joyce from Oklahoma State University. How are you doing today, jill?

Speaker 2: 0:24

Good, how are you doing today, jill? Good, how are you I'm doing?

Speaker 1: 0:25

spectacular. It's good to have you here with us today. You are a friend of Roger Sutherland that we've had on here before. You came highly recommended by him and it's been interesting talking with you up to this point so far. But I was hoping maybe you could tell us a little bit about yourself and what your connections to the fire service are.

Speaker 2: 0:44

Sure, I'm a nutrition professor and researcher at Oklahoma State University currently and I work in the tactical space. So I work with fire, law enforcement, military personnel, current or veteran, former service members and their families, and I do that because they're all my family members and best friends Theion to the fire service. My grandpa was a firefighter and my uncle and cousin currently are, and then all the other tactical groups. I've got them all over the place and all my family I married the military wanted to do that. It's all. It's like my everything. So I have a personal connection and I think it benefits me a lot on the nerdy side in that there's not a lot of nutrition research out there quite yet. So where there are gaps in the research, because I know these groups so well personally, I often have this insider scoop on what's going on and then I can put my nerdy and personal side together and do some really good work with all the groups.

Speaker 1: 1:43

And that's very important because one of the underserved populations, I think, are first responders, whether, like you mentioned, it be fire, police, ems, military. A lot of times you'll have very specific studies, but the more broad stuff, like nutrition and things like that, are often overlooked. One of the things that I've always heard and I've been told forever they have what they call the healthy worker effect. Basically, firefighters when I say we, I might not be including myself completely we tend to work out a lot. We tend to be healthier, make wiser choices.

Speaker 1: 2:16

I don't always do that, I'll be the first to say that, but when you have that, sometimes that can skew the numbers a lot of times when you look at things. When you have that, sometimes that can skew the numbers a lot of times when you look at things. But at the same time, when you start really breaking it down and I think you'll agree with me on this a lot of the problems that we see in the fire service go back to things like diabetes, high cholesterol, different things that are directly attributed to diet. But yet how is it possible that all these super healthy folks that take care of themselves work out and in a lot of cases they're professional level athletes, but yet they have some of the crummiest numbers whenever you draw their blood.

Speaker 2: 2:56

Yeah, absolutely. I'm also a registered dietitian, which means that whole clinical medical side is very much of interest to me too. And I'd say there's a couple things going on. One, I think that there are a lot of first responders in military who really are very health motivated, very active in eating healthy and working out and really tracking their health and trying to improve that. But the stats nationally will show that there's also a lot of health and trying to improve that. But the stats nationally will show that there's also a lot of people who aren't doing that. So, even though we, you know, I feel like there's from TB oftentimes a very large stereotype of being incredibly highly fit and healthy individuals. You guys work incredibly stressful jobs that take such a toll on you all that you're going to get tired at times and not want to work, or you're going to get stressed out at times and want to not eat so healthy. And I think that how the job takes a toll on lifestyle sometimes.

Speaker 1: 3:53

With that being said, I have watched firefighters be obsessed with a diet, and I've seen some that it's time for ice cream and I don't matter what else is time for ice cream? Uh, and I don't matter what else is happening, ice cream's going to happen. So I've seen both ends of the spectrum. And, with that being said, let's look at the diet side of it. I hear everybody say I'm keto, I'm paleo, I'm carnivore, I'm this, I'm that. So what is your professional opinion on diets? What's the best? Is there a best? What's the ticket on all that stuff?

Speaker 2: 4:28

That's a great question. I would say that, ideally, you pick whatever is truly healthy and that you will stick to. I think that's the best diet. I prefer to move away from the diet concept and rules because that often isn't realistic long term and or not family friendly. I mean, if you're on keto, I don't want a kiddo cutting out food groups. If you're on carnivore, I definitely don't want a kiddo cutting out food groups. So those aren't very family friendly. So I prefer something that's sustainable. So I preach more of let's change smaller habits slowly and sustainably, such that they add up and they cause an impact. If we do that over a few months, we could have a huge change. Just small, realistic, consistent changes progressively. That can lead to a big change every time. That would be. That's my favorite.

Speaker 2: 5:21

If I do know, though, there there are some people who are highly motivated to follow a diet. If they are, I'd say Mediterranean diet and the dash diet are two of my favorites for fire, specifically because of the high incidence of high blood pressure, high cholesterol and heart attacks those two are my two and cancer those are two of my favorites because they address those things really well. They're very evidence-based in those areas. So if somebody wants to follow a diet, those are two of my favorite. Oh, and they're very family friendly too. I would be totally fine with a kiddo, a pregnant female, any being on those diets. They're very family friendly also.

Speaker 1: 6:01

That's huge. I've heard both of those names pop up around the firehouse as well and around coworkers and things like that, but it sounds to me like what you're saying is as long as you're conscious of what you're eating, that's probably the most effective thing you can do and just be balanced to what you're doing and do it in moderation.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Absolutely, and I'd say when it comes to the popular diets, the thing that makes me most nervous when it comes to those, especially for tactical groups, is that, beyond the general population and trying to eat healthy, you all have to also feel performance, and not just physical performance but also mental performance, and combat a lot of exposures, and a lot of the popular diets right now cut out a lot of food groups that could really benefit current health, current performance and long-term health Make me nervous.

Speaker 1: 6:56

Yeah, and I think about that too, because I've talked to guys at the department I work at professionally. They said they like to push themselves to the point of failure so they'll know how far they can go before they have a problem. And that's typically with exercise or training or whatever. But one of the things they also say is we don't want to fail on game day. It's okay to fail at practice. You just don't want to do it on game day and if you start excluding things from your diet you might run a deficiency in minerals, vitamins, whatever the case is, and long-term that could be detrimental and fail when you need it the most.

Speaker 2: 7:31

But, yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:32

So when you look at that, you mentioned the higher occurrences of things like cholesterol, high blood pressure and, of course, diabetes, things like that. So when we get our NFPA physical and they draw the 13 vials of blood out of us and we feel like we have a stab wound and we go through the debriefing of it and get the breakdown of what our individual situation is, when the doctor or the nurse whoever is reviewing the results comes back and says man, your cholesterol is off the charts, your blood pressure is sky high, man, if you're not diabetic, you will be in the morning when they start hitting you with all that information and I can speak from experience on this.

Speaker 1: 8:14

It is very overwhelming and especially if they don't help you come up with a plan as to how to address it. So, from a clinical perspective, from what you've seen, when a firefighter gets this information and just gets walloped with all of this and they're sitting here thinking, but I eat well and I do this and I exercise, what advice can you give that firefighter so that they're not so overwhelmed when they start getting the bad news to start with, so that they're not so overwhelmed when they start getting the bad news.

Speaker 2: 9:24

To start with, yeah, I'd say one thing is especially on the nutrition side of things, because there's just so much, there's so much information and there's so many different diets and supplements is a whole other ballgame. There's so much there that I'd say check first off, check your insurance and see if a registered dietitian visit is covered. It very likely is, and they can. We're trained in not only what nutrition do you need for to treat or prevent disease, fuel performance, but also how do we get you to do that the behavior change element sustainably. So I say that can be really helpful to see if you can get a referral from your physician. Most fire departments I talk to they get and even law enforcement too upwards of six dietician visits a year. That's awesome. There's a place to get someone who I like food puns so pun intended can make that information more digestible.

Speaker 1: 10:24

Oh boy.

Speaker 2: 10:25

Yeah, but that's where I'd say my first step would be is don't feel like you have to go it alone and realize that your insurance probably pays for someone who's really good at making that way less complicated, scary and stressful for you, and that's, in my case, the the nurse practitioners that went over the information with this.

Speaker 1: 10:47

It was very generic.

Speaker 1: 10:49

They did a good job, don't get me wrong, but it was funny. I talked to one of my coworkers and I was like they told me that I need to cut out sugar and cream in my coffee and cut it, and Rob's like, yep, they told me the same exact thing. It's almost like it's cookie cutter and I know you can't do that all the time when it comes to to to diets, because the way Travis's body works might be different than how somebody else's might and intolerances or whatever. But yeah, it can be very stressful to think about stuff like that and mental health is huge in the first responder realm and there is a link between what you eat and how you think, how you respond, your emotion. With that being said, what are some recommendations that you would have of things that we should maybe avoid if we don't want to be on edge all the time and just have that negative response? I know food can't fix it all, but it can definitely make it a lot better oh yeah, absolutely can make it a lot better.

Speaker 2: 11:54

And I'll say, ironically, on a lot of health issues that we see with the general population or with tactical groups, there are occupational expenditures and nothing can fight that, aside from protection. But even protection is not going to fight all of it, you just can't fight it all. But aside from that, nutrition really can fix a lot of things, like it's. If you look at the top 10 leading causes of death in the us, one of them is false. So take that one out. Nutrition is the leading risk factor for the other nine. So it's A. You're right, it is a big fix or part of the fix. But I'd say wait, where was the question? Again, I went down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 1: 12:32

You're fine, you're fine. Keep going down your rabbit hole. You're fine, you're fine. No, you're good. But no, it's when we eat certain things that can impact our emotions and things like that. What are some things that we should maybe avoid to?

Speaker 2: 12:46

Now I'm back.

Speaker 1: 12:47

No, you're fine To avoid just maybe having an extra negative reaction when you see the bad stuff and things like that.

Speaker 2: 12:55

One thing I, one thing I prefer to do is I feel like the minute I say you can't have something, what do you want to do?

Speaker 1: 13:01

You want it.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Go get it. So I prefer my favorite approach is to do more of like. Let's challenge you to add things that are beneficial in instead of cut out the things that are purposefully. Think about cutting out the things that are detrimental. And the best part about that is and maybe I'm revealing the trickery and I don't know if that's going to help or hurt anybody, but the great part is is like in challenging you to get so many glasses of water in per day, you're naturally going to slow down or stop drinking the other stuff by saying I want you to eat five servings of fruits and vegetables per day, but get that in. You're going to have to cut some other stuff out without me telling you to do that. It's just naturally going to happen. So I like more of like. Challenge you to add and I feel like tactical groups.

Speaker 2: 13:51

You got to this earlier where you said a lot of people like to really push themselves as far as they can. That challenge mentality is a little competitive, so I like that mentality. So I'd say for mental health and it's funny what we recommend for heart disease, diabetes, overweight, obesity, fueling performance, mental health it's actually mostly the same Right, which makes it great and a little bit easier. But I'd say some challenges are literally to try and eat five servings of fruits and vegetables per day. Make half your grains whole grains.

Speaker 2: 14:25

Instead of saying don't eat refined grains, I say your challenge is make half your grains whole grains. Instead of saying don't drink the sugary beverages, I'd say you got to make at least 80% of your beverages in the day water. So I'd say find those sorts of challenges. But I really do think the fruits and vegetables one, the water one those I've found incredibly helpful and even the whole grains one. You're eating grains. Make half them whole grains. Those three things. Immediately someone sees it as a challenge, but they'll also wind up cutting a lot of not so good things out.

Speaker 1: 15:00

I I know, like in my case personally, sugar is something that that's poison, and for me, a coca-cola man, I was addicted, but now yeah over a couple of months I've been able to get down to where I might split one with my son, maybe once a week, maybe not Things like sparkling water. I know it's probably got plenty of chemicals that'll kill me too, but it's a better option. At least it doesn't have the same sugar content but, like you said, when you start challenging yourself and replacing it, it makes it a lot easier.

Speaker 2: 15:33

It's a little more fun, more positive we, if we look at behavior change theories, when you have a choice to do something and when it's more fun like less, not so negative you tend to buy into it more and it's more likely to stay.

Speaker 1: 15:49

And you want changes that'll stay. You don't want something that'll just come and go. But so I know that you're talking about eating your veggies. My mother told me that for years, and my grandmother did, and I didn't always pay attention to it, but now I do. I like them better. I don't know why, as an adult, but eat your fruits, eat your veggies, balance your diets and all that. And I know a lot of that goes back to vitamins and minerals and things like that. And boy, there are enough supplements out there to sink a battleship. What things? And you're talking with Roger Sutherland and some of the other folks that we've had on our podcast in the past. They've talked about how women have certain nutritional needs, men have certain nutritional needs nutritional needs. Men have certain nutritional needs. What are probably some of the I don't know top five supplement not necessarily supplement brand names, but what things do we need to maybe be adding to our diet that we're not, or adding to our intake that maybe our diet's not getting for us?

Speaker 2: 16:48

it is mostly from fruits and vegetables that we're lacking. So if we look at the nutrients we're short in it's that, and it's also often dairy products. It's things like potassium, fiber, calcium, vitamin D. We're often more deficient in those Quite a few of the vitamins and minerals that you see in fruits and vegetables. We tend to be lacking on those. So I would always say I always say food first, and there's a reason for that. It's not just because I'm a dietician and I'm anti-supplement. I'm not by any means anti-supplement at all. They very much have their place, especially with the groups I work. With A deployed soldier, you are not going to eat as many fruits and veggies as you need.

Speaker 1: 17:26

It's not going to happen.

Speaker 2: 17:28

So supplements have their place, but I'd say food first for two big reasons One but I'd say food first for two big reasons. One we see this consistently in studies is that when you have a nutrient in a food source, it will do a certain thing. Vitamin C is known for boosting immune function and things like that. But the minute we isolate nutrients and put them in super high concentrations by themselves they sometimes don't work quite as well. Or in the same way, your body tends to prefer them synergistically in food, and it could be because of the form or because vitamin C and iron together increases vitamin C absorption. So they often have this like synergistic effect with each other. So food first. For that reason is that we, our bodies, tend to prefer that form and they often work synergistically. The other reason is that with supplements it is much easier to reach a toxicity level vitamin C. But as a good example is vitamin C, it's actually quite easy to over I don't want to say overdose to reach toxic levels of vitamin C, and it's actually interesting how many people they'll be like oh, I'm supplementing vitamin C and I'm like do you have loose stools? Which weird question. But since they know me, they know it's coming, maybe diarrhea, and they're like, yeah, I'm like that's actually one of the first symptoms of a vitamin C toxicity. So you might be taking too much. Vitamin C is a much more like chill one to reach a toxic level of, but there are some other ones where if you reach a toxic level it can have some really negative side effects. If you get it from food. Unless you're only eating oranges all day, every day, an insane amount of them, you're probably gonna reach toxicity levels if food winds up being a little safer in terms of like toxicity, potential toxicities.

Speaker 2: 19:20

So I do prefer food first, always. But if you need a supplement, I get it and I would say a low dose multivitamins not a bad idea. That's usually, if I think all the nutrients I just said that we're lacking. It's vitamins and minerals. So I'd say low dose. Look for one that doesn't have a ton of ingredients. On that nutrition, that supplement facts label like the list isn't super duper long. I just want the vitamins and the minerals. And then look at the percent daily value, daily value and I want it to be like around a hundred percent. I'd say oh, no, more than three 400% of your daily value. That should be pretty safe, but you have to remember, like what you're getting into your supplement is all, you're also getting it from food. So even though it says a hundred percent, with your food it's going to be over that.

Speaker 1: 20:09

Sure, so you don't want to overdo it. If you can help it, yeah. So while we're talking about supplements and things like that, I know weightlifting, muscle mass, muscle quality, condition, injury, recovery, things like that are huge in the fire service and I know guys will get sprains and strains and sometimes they tear muscles or in things like that. Are there any supplements that you can recommend that or not just through pill form but maybe also through food, some things that maybe they could focus on to help in recovery and maximizing their I guess their building performance and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 20:51

Yeah, absolutely. I'd say pre-workout, watch the pre-workout supplements. My favorite pre-workout would be like 150 to 200 milligrams of caffeine through like coffee. That'd be great, although I do get that gets some people's gi tracks moving and could lead to issues later. But a little bit of caffeine, water, nice bottle of water, and then this is the only time I'm going to say it is some refined grains or more simple sugar, because if you want to fuel your workout, you need energy and hydration. Well, caffeine, carbs and water, there's your, there's the three, the Holy Trinity of pre-workout. So I would say that pre-workout insteadinity of pre-workout. So I would say that pre-workout instead of a pre-workout supplement. I've seen far too many a lot of military bases we lived at. I saw people having heart attacks at pt in the morning because they took too much of a pre-workout, with being dehydrated and energy drink or it's very possible that that can happen. So be careful with the pre-workouts. I'd rather you do the other stuff that I just mentioned and then post-workout to help on the recovery, rebuilding side of things you can do.

Speaker 2: 22:03

Creatine Creatine is effective but only for power and strength, so more if you're lifting, if you're doing endurance, creatine won't help you. And following the package instructions usually is about what the studies show is effective, so they're usually spot on. And then whey protein with carbs and in the post-workout, like 15 to 25 grams If you're smaller framed to larger framed, female to male, that's all the protein that you need. Whey protein is great and then make sure you've carbs with it. So if you're doing like 25 grams of protein, you need to have at least 50 grams of carbs with it. That's the part where people usually, like eyeballs, pop out of so double up on it yes, okay, yeah, the carbs are.

Speaker 2: 22:52

They help the protein get into the muscle cells to rebuild and then you actually store carbs in your you store glycogen or stored carbs in your muscle cells so that the minute you start working out you go through a couple energy systems like creatine and then you can pull from the carb sources that are in your muscles really quickly until your body gets the other sources up and running to fuel your workouts. It replenishes all that the muscle quick stores that were depleted, and it helps with protein synthesis and so you need the carbs.

Speaker 1: 23:25

Excellent. So it's not as complicated as going to GNC and trying to figure out what you should be taking and how much of it and what won't wreck your digestive track. I gotcha.

Speaker 2: 23:33

Yeah, and chocolate milk is great. If you can stomach chocolate milk and safely store it somewhere until you're done working out, it is indeed great. It's got the great ratio of carbs to protein. I'd say 2 to 3 cups, or 16 to 24 ounces.

Speaker 1: 23:49

Beautiful yeah, I can do chocolate milk. I dig that myself. Although I guess I need to start working out more before I go to that.

Speaker 2: 23:56

That's the key. It's funny. I always laugh. This is where the only thing people remember from my nutrition classes is she said I can have Pop-Tarts. I'm like no, I said Pop-Tarts are a pre-workout, which means you have to work out after. Same thing with the chocolate milk it's a great post-workout, but that means you got to work out before. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:14

You got to get that part right in the middle. Pop-tarts and chocolate milk. I'm down with that, but working out. It's like a child again, right, yeah, I got to work on that.

Speaker 2: 24:22

One thing I have to add on the supplement side of things. I have to always add this Tell your doctor before you start taking them, and if you're on them right now, don't stop, but tell your doctor ASAP, because tons of supplements interact with medications and medical conditions to the point where some of them will wipe your medications completely ineffective, really, completely. St John's Wort's one of them. So you have to be very careful, that's something to be very careful with supplements. Always tell your doctor, always, always. Good to Wort's one of them. So you have to be very careful, that's something to be very careful with supplements. Always tell your doctor, it's always, always good to know.

Speaker 1: 24:58

Good to know and. I didn't mean to cut you off a second ago, but now there's one more big one and this is what I consider venom of the fire service and those are energy drinks. I have sat in classes before and I'll see the guy behind me that'll have the three big monster sugar-free, and two before lunch and definitely one after lunch.

Speaker 2: 25:21

How bad is that stuff for you? There are so many studies in the general population that's not already at elevated risk because of their jobs that any energy drink usage increases risk of a heart attack, mainly through blood pressure, and if they're using one with added sugar in it, through the added sugar too. But any energy drink use unfortunately increases risk of a heart attack and with you all being at high risk because of your jobs, they're very dangerous, especially in high amounts. My again, it always goes back to if you're a doctor, if you have high blood pressure or history of heart disease, you need to talk to your doctor. But caffeine wise, what we're seeing from most studies right now is like three, 400 milligrams a day is like the edge of healthy, the high edge of healthy.

Speaker 2: 26:11

So that or lower which I know is some of those monsters and that you were mentioning they've got 350 in a can, so you're done for the day, right there oh, drink water yeah, but if your doctor hasn't told you to slow down really quickly with the caffeine, do it slowly because you will have like earth shattering headaches and you'll be mean too oh, you will be so mean, so back off slowly, drink a lot of water, yeah dr jill, you've given us a lot of really good information and I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 26:47

But if you could give one piece of advice to firefighters from a nutritional standpoint, if it was just one thing that you could tell us what would that one thing be?

Speaker 2: 26:58

Firefighters, specifically I think my and this is just from work we've been doing over the past couple years and being in a lot of fire stations I'd say the number one thing is, when you're on shift, keep the countertops clear. Unless it's healthy food, don't put it on the countertops. Unless it's fruits, veggies, something like that, don't put it on the countertops. I didn't say you can't have it, but you gotta put it behind a closed door. Keep the countertops clear. We've done some food environment interventions in fire stations and it's amazing how big of an impact you can have by just having the countertops clear. It's that easy to change how you're eating on shift. Just put it behind a closed door, don't have it on the countertops.

Speaker 1: 27:44

I like that.

Speaker 2: 27:45

That's one easy thing and it will completely. It'll change a lot.

Speaker 1: 27:48

I like that Sounds like it's a solid advice.

Speaker 2: 27:53

All right.

Speaker 1: 27:54

Very good. Like I said, jill, I appreciate you taking time to give us all this wonderful information on diet supplements, what we can do to help maximize our workouts and things like that. So if folks want to get a hold of you and learn more about what you are doing at Oklahoma State and what you specifically are doing with your research and first responders, how can folks find out where you're at and learn about you?

Speaker 2: 28:18

We have a Facebook page for our lab where we share a lot of information and resources. Like I just posted, we make infographics for fire station TVs. If you have the static screens, we're working on those. We make all kinds of stuff. So our Facebook page is OSU Tactical Fitness and Nutrition Lab. My email is tacticalnutrition at okstateedu. And then I say if people want to hear more, I do nutrition classes for free every Friday. You don't even have to sign up. Just look on Facebook, click the link, hop on. I have a flyer with the topics Q&A sessions. We can, we can cover whatever you want to cover.

Speaker 1: 28:57

I like it. I like it. Free resources are always good or just resources in general are good, Very good. I appreciate your time, but I don't know if you've ever listened to any of our podcasts. But we have a small tradition on here where I compart information to either my co-host or whoever's listening. My friend told me the other day they couldn't afford their water bill, so I sent him a get well soon. Card.

Speaker 2: 29:24

Wait, okay, you gotta explain that one to me.

Speaker 1: 29:26

Okay, it's just a really bad dad joke. I'm just kidding I usually get some.

Speaker 2: 29:32

I like puns. I'm the bad dad joke person. Can't pay your water bill.

Speaker 1: 29:37

Get a get well soon card. Get a well, I got it. Jill, you're awesome. I appreciate you being here tonight and, like I said, we'll look forward to talking to you soon. And, like we always tell our listeners, be sure to light your fire within. You have been listening to All Clear. All Clear is presented by the North Carolina Firefighter Cancer Alliance and the First Responders Peer Support Network. You can find out more about us at allclearpodcastcom. Leave us a message. We'd appreciate hearing from you. If you like what you hear, tell someone. Opinions expressed by guests do not always reflect the opinions of the podcast. Intro and outro music provided by Wayne John Bradley. And, as always, light your fire within. See you soon.