Breaking Cadence: Insights From a Modern-Day Conscientious Objector

The Deal

• Rosa del Duca • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In the fall of 2000, I was a low-income, high school senior, itching to get out of my small town. Strong-willed, independent and a know-it-all, I impulsively signed a six-year contract with the National Guard to pay for college. My escape route was paved.

At first, I was excited and proud to wear the uniform. But as the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq unfolded, I became anxious, depressed, and furious with myself for signing that contract. I became increasingly conflicted about my role in war. Eventually, I found out there was a name for what I'd become. I was a conscientious objector. 

In this inaugural episode of Breaking Cadence: Insights from a Modern-Day Conscientious Objector, we time travel. We go back to the fall of 2000 and I ask my mom and my two sisters what they thought when I announced I was joining the Montana Army National Guard. Later, I ask them what they thought when I admitted I was seeking a discharge on the grounds I was a conscientious objector. 

Many of us have moments like this. Big decisions that shape our lives in unexpected ways. Regrets that haunt us, that inform what kind of adults we turn out to be, that perhaps never sit well because they're just too fraught. 

Woven between these interviews are themes of youth, naïveté, choice, morality, and judgement.

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Rosa del Duca:

Hi. However you landed here listening to this podcast. Welcome. My name is Rosa Del Duca. And when I was 17 years old I joined the Army National Guard. This was about a year before 9/11. I was excited and proud to be in the military and relieved that I had found a way to pay for college. But a year or two after the attacks, with our country mired in an ugly war, I was depressed ashamed and filled with anxiety about playing a role in an organization I didn't trust, and at that point wanted nothing more to do with. Eventually I found out there was a name for what I was feeling. I was a conscientious objector. By this time I'd been in the guard about four years. But I had just signed a three year contract extension with ROTC to delay a tour in Iraq. I tried to suck it up. I really really did. But in the end I made a stand against the war. I declared myself a conscientious objector to the army and ROTC. The army denied my application but that's a story for another day. What I want to talk about in this inaugural episode of Breaking cadence is naeivite, youth, independence and choice. It was really easy to join the military and it was hell trying to get out. This period of my life was so fraught with competing feelings of being a traitor and yet also being taken advantage of, and then more guilt for thinking that I could be some kind of victim in something that I volunteered to do and promised to do. Competing feelings stacked onto each other. I spent years and years writing and rewriting the how and why and the aftermath of my choices to try to explain it to the no invisible everyone and also to myself. It ended up becoming a book that's coming out in May of 2019 through Ooligan Press. I'm really really excited and I've always admired podcasts and secretly wanted to make one. So when Ooligan suggested that I take some of the topics in the book and expand on them in that format I started brainstorming right away. I've mapped out a mini season of conversations related to being a member of the military while disagreeing wholeheartedly with what the government and military are doing. So I hope you stick around for at least a few episodes of Breaking Cadence: Insights From a Modern-Day Conscientious Objector. For this first episode I'm inviting you to time travel with me. I want to set the stage and then I'm going to ask my mom and my two sisters about what they remember from when I told them I wanted to join. This is a window into my personal pursuit of why, but I know we all have moments like this regrets choices we made that years later, we pick at the why and the how like a worry knot. And this is a choice that tens of thousands of young Americans make every year. Some of the new recruits, like me, will be faced with the same choice as they evolve into adults with a more complex unfiltered view of the world. Either watch your morals and ethics be trampled by the machine or break cadence. I want those young recruits to know as much as they feel completely alone. They're not. There's a long history of conscientious objection in this country and a long history of support for war resisters. So here goes nothing. Strap in for the ride. It's October of the year 2000. If you turn on the radio it's a lot of Vertical Horizon. Faith Hill, Three doors Down, Destiny's Child, Eminem. At the movie theater it's Gladiator and Requiem For A Dream, Cast Away. Bill Clinton is the president for a little while longer. Al Gore and George Bush are in the final weeks of their presidential campaigns. The stock market is going gangbusters. It's the peak of the dotcom bubble. Steve Jobs has just introduced the public beta of the Mac operating system. The United Nations designated the year 2000 the International Year for the culture of peace with the aim of celebrating and encouraging peace across the globe. Here's what you need to know about me. In October of the year 2000. I'm a pretty good kid. Yeah I dye my hair crazy colors sometimes and occasionally experiment with alcohol and roll my eyes at rules that seem authoritarian but I'm on track to be valedictorian of my little school. I play sports year round. I'm involved in FFA student government band choir. I write articles for the town newsletter. I'm kind of a brown noser and overachiever. I consider myself a tomboy. I like being tested against guys. I have a strong sense of independence. I think I'm pretty damn smart even though I'm painfully ignorant and naive right down to not knowing what really makes someone a Democrat or Republican. I'm also determined to find a way to pay for college myself. Growing up money was tight. As in we were on Welfare and us girls got free lunches at school and bought most of our clothes at Goodwill. Not that I minded. I had a fairly happy childhood despite my dad not being in the picture and despite later having an evil step dad. When my mom divorced that evil stepdad she had to declare bankruptcy because he wracked up debt on their credit card and then he declared bankruptcy. So my mom kept warning me that if I wanted to go to college in a year she couldn't help. No matter how much she wanted to. Cue the Army National Guard recruiter.

Linda del Duca:

This close?

Rosa del Duca:

That's my mom. A lot has changed in her life since I joined and a lot hasn't. She still lives in eastern Montana but she's much better off. She bought a house in Laurel about half an hour from the school where she works with troubled kids and kids who have gotten in trouble. I don't remember exactly how I told you but I must have come home from school and said that I wanted to join the the National Guard and that I needed a cosigner and all that stuff. So what. What did you think of that.

Linda del Duca:

I was completely surprised like Rosa? Following orders from somebody else? That's not going to happen. And I remember talking to your older sister Alura about that and she thought the same thing.

Alura del Duca:

Yeah I remember talking to mom about it too.

Rosa del Duca:

That's my older sister Alura. She's a teacher too, in Oregon. She jumps around a lot from second to third grade and is also a master gardener avid hiker voracious reader and fantastic mother. She has a daughter who just turned 12.

Alura del Duca:

I think she said that you wanted to do it and I was like what? And she was like well you know Rosa, she's really impulsive and the more I say no you shouldn't the more she's just kind of get bullheaded and want to do it.

Rosa del Duca:

But it's not like I was a rebel.

Linda del Duca:

No. But you were just very very impulsive and kind of pig headed. Or should I say opinionated. Very highly opinionated and I just yeah it just didn't seem to fit in with your personality and you will never ever ever talked about wanting to do something like that. So it was just like out of the blue.

Rosa del Duca:

But like I was a good kid and stuff.

Linda del Duca:

Oh oh yeah.

Rosa del Duca:

I mean not like I was pig headed in a way like flaunting all authority.

Linda del Duca:

No no no it's just like I can't remember specifics but I just remember you know you you would argue about stuff and just stick to your guns. And so I could easily picture you being told to do something and then you starting to argue with the drill sergeant then you know the next picture is you in the bathroom scrubbing the toilet with a toothbrush. But I also thought that you would change your mind because you can be impulsive about your opinions and then after a few days you can totally change them after you've had time to think about it. And that's why I told you to think about it for two weeks before deciding for sure because I was absolutely, like close to 100 percent sure, if not 100 percent sure you would change your mind.

Alura del Duca:

I do remember having a conversation with you then I think it was before the two weeks was up and I think I did have another conversation with you when you finally decided.

Rosa del Duca:

Do you remember anything about those conversations?

Alura del Duca:

Oh yeah.

Rosa del Duca:

Tell me all about it.

Alura del Duca:

So I remember the first time. I mean I don't remember completely word for word anything but I remember when you told me I was like, are you serious? And you're like yes you know they've got all these great benefits and you know they'll pay for college. And I said well yeah but what if we go to war and you're like oh no national guard does not go to war. And I said well think about Afghanistan. I mean there are National Guard troops over there.

Rosa del Duca:

But that had not happened yet.

Alura del Duca:

Afghanistan had happened.

Rosa del Duca:

No.

Alura del Duca:

The Gulf War. That's what I mean. The Gulf War. Yeah there were National Guard troops that went to the Gulf.

Rosa del Duca:

All right. Now I don't mean to nitpick Alura's interview, but let's remember that 9/11 hadn't happened. So no Afghanistan no Iraq. Some National Guard troops did serve in the Gulf War, which was a seven month operation. And we got the date wrong. It was from August of 1990 to February of 1991. So a full 10 years before I made my decision to join.

Alura del Duca:

So I referenced that. And you're like well that was just one time because it was crazy and there was no National Guard was only for like national natural disasters in your state. You don't ever have to leave your state. And I said well, that's you know, that would be nice if you could do that. But I mean aren't you afraid about that possibility and you were just completely sold on the fact that no National Guard people ever went out of their state to do anything unless it was a national natural disaster. So I remember thinking well you know what what are you going to do. I mean what what would happen if you did get called up? Well number one... You had all these reasons lined out, like women aren't allowed at the front. I would be able to do a job that wouldn't be dangerous... And I just I told you, well I think it's kind of a gamble. But you also referenced the fact that you really wanted to get out of the house. You saw that as your way out. You had this whole list of bullet points about why you thought it was good and you really didn't want to hear like you really brushed off any concerns.

Rosa del Duca:

So when I didn't change my mind then what did you think?

Linda del Duca:

That it was this whole kind of... I had to think in my head like what would happen if I refused. Then she's going to be mad and she would just be that much more determined. Well, I'll show you. When I turn 18 I don't need your signature. And so you would be annoyed with me as well and even that much more set on doing it. So I thought well, in six months she can do this herself and she doesn't need my signature. That's what she really wants then I'll sign.

Rosa del Duca:

One note here. Yes, the military does require a co-sign or when you're 17.

Linda del Duca:

I already thought of you as an adult because you'd already been going to Missoula for the summers to work. You were very independent in a lot of ways. And I always felt that all you girls were more like adults when you turned about 16 and were very responsible.

Rosa del Duca:

When you heard that the contract though was six years. Did that surprise you or...

Linda del Duca:

Yeah I thought it was would be a four year thing. And I thought maybe there was even an option for two years. But yeah. And the other thing was that we we both thought it was something where you would never be sent overseas for combat. We thought it was going to translate more into firefighting in Montana. That, to me, sounded like you know well maybe a little dangerous but still something important that needs to be done. And worthwhile you know and I knew that they did other things emergency situations whether it was a natural disaster or some kind of uprising or just monitoring a big peace demonstration or something like that.

Rosa del Duca:

I do remember things a little bit more like my mom. Like being kind of excited at the idea of fighting forest fires or responding to some kind of natural disaster. My sister remembers it differently though. I don't remember anyone challenging me on the war aspect too hard at all because it was just so like not a concern.

Alura del Duca:

In your mind maybe.

Rosa del Duca:

No, like it was such a different time.

Alura del Duca:

Maybe it's partly because I knew people who had been in the National Guard who had gone to the Gulf War.

Rosa del Duca:

Who?

Alura del Duca:

Chris.

Rosa del Duca:

Who is that?

Alura del Duca:

Eric's brother in law.

Rosa del Duca:

Eric was my sister's boyfriend at the time. They ended up getting married.

Alura del Duca:

And so I knew that it happened. And he had like he still has health problems from it like carpal tunnel and like he has said he has respiratory issues and things. I didn't know him very well at that time at all. I really don't know him very well now. But yeah. And I know like other people that I talked to. I don't know. I think I also didn't think about the fact that oh yeah it's a really secure possibility. But I thought it was something that I wouldn't want to gamble on. And I remember asking what happens if it does. Like yeah well maybe it's not even a big precedent now but what would happen if something changed once you're in there and you sign those things and you're kind of screwed.

Rosa del Duca:

Before we get too deep I do want to bring in my little sister Leila. She was 15 or 14 when I joined the Guard. Checkety check, checkity check, check I know which microphone is mine now. You do it too you do...

Leila del Duca:

Checkity check. Checkity check. Check check we've got our microphones.

Rosa del Duca:

OK we got it. All right. You've probably guessed, but we are total goofballs when we get together. There's something in the atmosphere that makes us a little wacky. We used to do these radio shows when we were kids and we did a lot of trying to edit out all the laughing.

Leila del Duca:

Three in a row on your favorite show, 92 kazillion dot five.

Rosa del Duca:

Leila is also a thoughtful and serious person. A little about her life now: She's a successful comic book artist living in Portland at the moment. Her first big break in the industry came a few years ago with Shutter from Image Comics. Since then she's written her own comic, Afar, drawn Sleepless and is now working on something very very awesome. But it's still secret so I can only hint at its wonderfulness.

Leila del Duca:

All right. Well I think what I remember most is... I don't remember talking about it that much. I don't remember that time with you very clearly. I feel like you were kind of wrapped up in your own school stuff and I was wrapped up in my own misery. So I don't I just don't remember and also it's just like there's so many years between then and now and you remember it more clearly than me because you you've had to focus on this time in your life a little bit more. So I unfortunately I don't have that many memories back then. All I remember is how crappy it was living under bleep blop's rule.

Rosa del Duca:

Bleep Blob is what we're going to call our evil stepfather who we had when we were in middle school and high school. My mom ditched him a year or two before my senior year. My dad who split up with my mom right before Leila was born. He just wasn't wasn't a big part of our lives.

Leila del Duca:

I do remember being proud of you and not really knowing what to think because I didn't know much about the army. And I think I do remember you reassuring us that it was just the national guard that you weren't going to get deployed ever that you're going to stay on home turf and just kind of like take care of people in our country and that you weren't going to ever be at a risk of dying in combat. And so I was like Yeah that sounds great. What a great way for a poor girl to make some money to go to college and then be free of it in six years. I didn't think it was anything bad about it. So I was like Yeah my sister is going to be going to school in Missoula Montana which is just on the other side of the state and she'll only be gone to do army stuff once in a while like I'll still see her.

Rosa del Duca:

I think it surprised Mom and Alura and everybody else because a military history doesn't run in our family. Like we didn't know anyone who served.

Leila del Duca:

Well, you're a very ambitious person and I've known that for forever and so it seemed almost logical in hindsight for you to do it whether or not it was that.

Rosa del Duca:

So you saw joining as like being an almost out of the box Rule Breaker decision like, well I can't find a traditional way to pay for college so I'm going to do this.

Leila del Duca:

Yeah. You were just doing what you thought was going to work best and with your own financial means and you don't want to rely on anyone. This is the way to be even more independent and you've always been really athletic which is another aspect that didn't surprise me about the decision.

Rosa del Duca:

Let's go back to my mom for a sec because not only was she surprised but she didn't like that I wanted to join. I would consider you kind of a pacifist and environmentalist. I think you said at one point that it bothered you that I joined the military.

Linda del Duca:

I guess mixed feelings would be the best... Like impressed that you wanted to do something that I thought would be very very difficult. Like it's not so not only something that I might be. Not inclined to do but also something that I would never think that I could get through boot camp. The physical part I myself just I don't I would never think that that was something that I could do go through. Well not only that just the mental. Like, I could not deal with that military mentality. I just it just made no sense to me. I had heard like oh you have to break down the person to build them up and it's like why the Native Americans never did that. They were had fierce warriors. They didn't have a drill sergeant.

Rosa del Duca:

If this Native American stuff seems out of the blue, my parents spent a few years on reservations when they were young. I was actually born on a Navajo reservation in Arizona. Later my dad lived on a Crow Reservation in Montana. They both seem to really respect and admire the way native cultures operated.

Linda del Duca:

They also they had more independence. As to whether they were going to go on a raid or whatever. Of course when somebody is coming to raid their village they're going to defend it and that's not a hard choice. So I I really didn't see... I just have a lot of negative feelings about how the military is run.

Rosa del Duca:

Do you think if I had talked to someone like Chris who had done a tour and had some repercussions because of it that would have affected me at all?

Alura del Duca:

No I don't think so at all. Your personality is such that... I think Mom was right. I mean I don't think any amount of time like you do make quick decisions and you don't usually listen to other people's opinions very much you kind of see yourself as especially back then as it won't happen to me like I have it figured out and I'm a smart person and I know what I'm doing and that won't be a problem. Like it doesn't matter if other people have you'll be like well that's them that's not me. So I really don't I think you had it. It's like mom says like super spontaneous you got your mind set on it. You were going to do it.

Rosa del Duca:

Do you think that me talking to someone, maybe even someone who had been called up, or just trying to have some hard conversations would have changed my mind?

Linda del Duca:

I think depending on the person. If it was somebody who you know had a positive experience that would just convince you even more if it was somebody who had a negative experience or some other brought up some other things or if we knew that National Guard was troops were often sent overseas and that it was very highly likely that that would happen. I think that would have changed your mind as well. Dad was in World War II. He and his brother Bob were the only people I knew.

Rosa del Duca:

And they weren't soldiers they were they were engineers, right? They were with the Seabees.

Linda del Duca:

Yeah. They were in the Seabees. And then well I did know like my best girlfriend her dad was he was a colonel but he was a psychiatrist so you know there was no combat. Stories you know on on that part. And and again another girlfriends father was a colonel. He all I knew about you know his service was working and I think a commissary. So those are my experiences. No. Battle stuff dad's experience was that planes flew over once or twice and there was some shooting and that was it. Otherwise he was you know helping to build barracks and things like that.

Rosa del Duca:

Do you still think that I'm really impulsive?

Alura del Duca:

Yeah but I mean I kind of I'm the same way too. I'm fast I'm a fast thinker. And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not like I feel like I evaluate things pretty quickly and then I make a quick decision like I make a decision and I've learned from certain other people like Eric, super slow thinker or like me. I feel like Eric never makes a decision. Almost seems like you like. Those are all these points here. These are all good points here. And Steve is kind of like that too

Rosa del Duca:

Eric is Alura's ex husband, who she has her daughter with. Steve is her longtime boyfriend.

Alura del Duca:

Options on the side because the options here deliberates a while before doing something where. So I think you're like that too. You just you think about something. It sounds good you can think of all the reasons and you go for it.

Rosa del Duca:

Yeah. When Nick and I buy a new computer this is exactly our difference in personality. I go to Best Buy and I look for maybe 20 minutes and I buy a computer.

Alura del Duca:

That's me too.

Rosa del Duca:

Nicholas researches for about two weeks and weighs and weighs and waits and then he'll buy a computer. Buying a computer and signing a six year contract with the National Guard. Those are two different things.

Alura del Duca:

I don't know though, like I think--

Rosa del Duca:

You're kidding.

Alura del Duca:

I think that there's it's just like the method of doing things. It's like buying a car. I think we're kind of programmed to be like OK we need something that's going to do this this and this for us if it works and it meets all those. We do it and I think you were looking for a way to get out of the house have a job and pay for college. And it's like those met all those criteria. And so that's what you were going to do. And you know it's like buying a car or something like that. I need a car that does this this and this and this. And I think our minds also kind of work with the way with like how like you have that car. We do a little bit of research on the you know the make and model. But sometimes they still you know there are lemons in every type. And so you're taking a gamble either way. And I think that is kind of how you think about that or you thought about that too. It's like I think you were thinking Oh yeah it might be a little bit of a risk but chances are probably not.

Rosa del Duca:

When 9/11 happened we were both at the U of M and I remember it just did not even cross my mind at that point that that could affect me. Maybe a day or maybe even two days after I didn't have a TV so I came over to your house and we were watching the news. And you asked me So like are you are you called up now?

Alura del Duca:

Yeah I remember thinking that like the first time I saw it actually because I went to school that day like 9/11 like normal. When I was walking through the U.S. like that common area and they have all those TVs out. And I think yeah I just remember seeing all that and I don't remember what kind of triggered it. I don't know if somebody if there was some sort of mention about the National Guard being called in to help with cleaning up or like one of the news reporters made some mention of it. But I remember thinking you're in you know this is a national security issue now. And I remember thinking that you might get called up and I didn't even I think when I said that I wasn't thinking you're going to be called up overseas. I was thinking oh you might be called to go to New York or wherever. Washington. One of those places. And I did remember thinking that I was kind of surprised how that hadn't crossed your mind yet.

Rosa del Duca:

Yeah. And it took you saying that for me to be like Oh when I thought about I was like No well that's what the New York National Guard is for. I'm not even fully trained because at that point you know I'd gone to boot camp that summer before but I didn't finish it because I got mono and they sent me home. So I hadn't even been through boot camp yet. Yeah. And then when I thought about it even more I was like oh we'll have this if they do need help and they start calling other National Guard troops up I wonder if they're going to rush me through boot camp and my training so I can go. Not that that was something I would have disagreed with.

Linda del Duca:

I was driving to work and listening to this on the radio and then I got to work, you know someone had a TV on and we're looking at it. And so I was pretty much absorbed with that along with everybody else kind of watching what was going on and then I panicked when I heard that a plane went down in Pennsylvania because I thought well it could be near Philadelphia that's the largest city and mom lives right outside of Philadelphia. So that's what I thought of. And I also thought that while you know Bev my sister lives in middle Pennsylvania so I ran to a room and I said and I said we're in Pennsylvania. And then I found out where it was. It wasn't near them. So that I think was on my mind I wasn't even there because at that point too I I didn't know they sent National Guard troops overseas to anything so I wasn't even on my radar.

Leila del Duca:

I went to school in Fromberg and all I don't think we found out until the second class period. And then when we did find out some terrible terrorist attack happened we weren't getting that much information from our teachers. But we weren't getting any work done because we were like No you have to tell us what's going on. And then finally in an AG class we got to sit and just talk about it the whole class but they still didn't let us watch it on television. I remember they specifically did not let us turn on the news or watch anything or like listen to the radio or whatever and I was I remember being really furious because something huge and awful was happening and we were in the dark about it and I felt like it was really rude to the students to treat us like we were stupid and like we didn't deserve to know about it.

Rosa del Duca:

But do you think that they were trying to protect you because you were just kids you were teenagers you were minors. I do think so but we were in high school and I knew in my heart that I was mature enough to take that because of what happened later in the day of course too as I go on to watch the news and all those terrible crap's happened and of course I cry. But but that I forget the name of the teacher but he was awesome because he let us talk about our feelings and like what it meant and that meant a lot to me. And I think the rest of my classmates as well people were jumping out of a building to their deaths because they would rather do that than burn to death or whatever. And that's just awful to think about and in general and then just so much death and confusion involved Yeah I really felt that pretty hard. I like how Leila puts it feeling at heart. We all did. That's why we all remember where we were what we were doing that day. That's why hundreds if not thousands of young people walked into recruiting offices the next day. Feeling it. Letting emotion rule played a big role in how in the months that followed. We began a war against an idea. Terror in two countries. At least that's the explanation that makes the most sense to me. I was kind of dumbstruck as I watched President Bush kick weapons inspectors out of Iraq before they'd completed what they'd come to do. Dumbstruck as he declared war against the advice of experts and diplomats and protesters across the globe. Baffled when he declared mission accomplished. Almost immediately after combat operations started. I know all too well what my army's story sounds like so far. It sounds like I joined for all the wrong reasons and that's exactly what the investigating officer charged with handling my conscientious objector case accused me of. Years later yes I was looking for a way to pay for college. It's the number one reason why I joined. But that doesn't mean I wasn't proud to wear the uniform at first. I was. I liked getting gas on my way home from drill the first year just because I liked how civilians looked at me wearing that uniform. And you know what college is the number one reason why a lot of people joined and still join. The deal was set up that way. 75 percent of tuition and a six thousand dollars signing bonus for National Guard recruits. It's still set up this way a give and take. I was just naive enough to think that America had evolved past the point of warmongering of shooting first and asking questions later. That I wouldn't be expected to throw my moral compass out the window when I put my uniform on. Like a lot of impulsive opinionated inexperienced teens do. I made a decision I ended up regretting. In this case I chose the wrong job. But unlike working for a neighbor or a small business or a corporation I couldn't quit. Unlike choosing the wrong college or the wrong major I couldn't transfer out. Unlike buying a car,(going to disagree with you here Alura), I couldn't sell that car and get a different one. I couldn't even get out from behind the wheel until my 6 years were up. When I finally confronted my deep misgivings about being in the army and more specifically the army fighting two unjust wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. When I finally put my foot down and said No I'm not going to play any kind of role in this war. I had to tell my family with my mom. I didn't just need to let her in on what I had been keeping secret. But I needed her to write a letter of support for my conscientious objector application and with my sisters. We've always been close. We don't keep secrets from each other for long. Even though it was my family who I knew cared about me and loved me and would support me. I was nervous. It was something that I dreaded talking about and admitting because on the one hand while I knew it was right to stand up against these wars I didn't feel right. Walking out on everyone else in uniform and I knew that I would be judged really harshly. I mean what was your reaction when I told you that...

Linda del Duca:

That again kind of prized me but because I don't think you hadn't shared much of that with me. But it didn't like it wasn't a huge surprise in some ways because I remember when when your aunt Bev and I went to see you graduate from boot camp and we took you out to eat. And I think the first thing you said when you sat down was I hate the army. And I told you to you later and you didn't remember it. And I just looked and you laugh and I said what?

Rosa del Duca:

You took me out to eat? I didn't think we were allowed to leave base

Linda del Duca:

After everything right. Like before you were done. And I think right before we dropped you off at the airport.

Rosa del Duca:

Oooo tell me more.

Linda del Duca:

So yeah we we watched your graduation and all and even talked to some general I think because you had done so well blah blah blah.

Rosa del Duca:

He gave me his coin. Yeah.

Linda del Duca:

You gathered your stuff and we go out. I don't know if it was dinner or lunch because I don't remember the time of day before drop me off at the airport. So into this restaurant where we sat down. I think you gave some big sigh like I hate the army. This is what boot camp you were all honored at in these different ways and had done super well. And you're saying I hate the army. It was just like oh, that's Rosa. You never know.

Rosa del Duca:

That's so funny because that was like the height of my feeling good about the army too. Like oh yeah I kicked boot camp's ass, you know. I mean. Of course there's a ton of stuff that you don't like. You don't like you know all the crap they put you through in boot camp. But I wonder if that's what I meant.

Linda del Duca:

I when I asked you why did you why did you say that. Or you know why. You know I don't remember what came afterward. But you had some kind of explanation of something I don't know something just really annoyed you that maybe it was not a general statement as as and not you know hating the whole thing or just something that annoyed you that it happened that day.

Rosa del Duca:

I don't know. Or maybe just because I was free and I got to sit down when I wanted an order and eat what I wanted or something or maybe.

Linda del Duca:

Maybe I don't know. Maybe you'd been wanting to say that but you couldn't untill you were off the base. I think.

Rosa del Duca:

That's hilarious and really sad at the same time.

Linda del Duca:

But. So when I called you I knew what conscientious objector was very familiar with that term right. But it was very different from a conscientious objector say in Vietnam where you burned your draft card and you said you were a conscientious objector and I thought you had to be a conscientious that you had to do it before you joined. So I did. I think I am. I think I asked something about that like you can do that when you're still in there. And you explain yes you can. I was like sure whatever you need. And I know that it is taking you a lot of time to let me know. You knew that I was proud of you and you know what you've done and of course well it's like who wouldn't be proud of somebody doing well in boot camp. Why would you not you know not be proud. So I was proud of whatever you did because you did it well. And I remember telling you that I said Whatever you do you do well. So I'm so proud of that. So if you do not want to be in the army any more than I support that.

Rosa del Duca:

But did you feel how like unpopular that choice would be though in that political climate.

Linda del Duca:

Yes I knew that a lot of people would you know look down on that by this time. You know like I had a coworker who was and he was also in the National Guard and he was talking about actually wanting to go overseas. And he actually did it years later went to Afghanistan Yeah I knew that. But I just feel like everybody has to make their own decision to what they think is best for them. And if somebody does this is you that's their problem not yours.

Leila del Duca:

I was all for it. I didn't want you to be deployed. I was like I don't believe in war either. I think like war is bullshit. And I don't want you to die and I don't want you to like put yourself in really awful emotional situations or be part of this thing that I knew both of us never really wanted to be in. So I was all for it didn't you.

Rosa del Duca:

Did you ever feel like even a little bit embarrassed or ashamed that I joined the military and then was like'see ya. You go fight the war. I don't want to.'

Leila del Duca:

Oh no not at all. I don't believe anyone should fight against their will. I don't think anyone should take a life against their will. And that's what they are going to ask you to do essentially like you never know. Maybe they wouldn't have but it was still kind of like contributing to the war machine that an opponent like at that time I was like no war at all ever. There's no reason for it whatsoever. And I was too young and I didn't really know politics of anything. So around that time I was absolutely like yeah everyone should drop their weapons and be peaceful. So yeah I was not ashamed at all. It was just like really happy for you that I was worried not happy free. I was really worried that they wouldn't let you go and that you would be forced to go over there.

Alura del Duca:

I thought it was a little bit of trying to get out of something that you had agreed to. And. I really never thought that you should have been in the army in the first place. And I thought that you'd rushed into it and you didn't want to listen to anybody and then you were kind of than not willing to live with the consequences of it. But I also didn't want you actually in the military. So I was kind of when those things were like I was glad that you were going to get out. But I also I guess when I put it myself in that position I wouldn't have done the same thing. Like I think I felt like you know you'd done it for a while and then like the fact you got into ROTC too. I felt like even solidified it even more so I almost thought like were. I don't know what the right word would be being dishonest and dishonorable was going to be my word slightly not honoring your word I guess like I felt like maybe had been pushed into a corner and it was your last way out and I thought that it wasn't really being a you know an honorable person to do that.

Rosa del Duca:

And I still do have a lot of guilt about that because I think that was what the typical American would think of me is that I am trying to get out of it being not you know being untrustworthy like my word doesn't mean anything. Are you saying that you believe that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were just unnecessary then.

Alura del Duca:

No not at all. That's what the thing is it's like. I did not ever I didn't agree with being in the military. And so I think when I and maybe just those few years older than I was from you. Like I knew more about the Gulf War I thought that was wrong. I thought a lot of other things were wrong. And so but I think I knew more like and I actually knew some people who'd been in the Gulf War I would never have even considered being in the military. And so for me when you were saying like National Guard I and I associated that with the military and the whole thought processes of the military the military industrial complex stuff all of that to me was so distasteful and like the mentality behind it though like good old boys thing the macho ism. I just couldn't stand any of that. And so the fact that you wanted to be allied with you know you wanted to be part of that first and then later decided not that was the part that I was kind of like well I never would have gotten myself into that situation because I would have never gotten the National Guard to begin with. I didn't agree with any of the war stuff but I felt like when you were entering the war like entering the National Guard you were saying. Well I'm all right with. What that's connected with. You're saying I'm all right with. Whatever whatever the U.S. government decides when you even if they started out when you sign a contract to be in the armed services. That's what I feel like you're saying you're saying I give up my personal opinions because that's what you have to do to be in the military like. To be in the military. You are listening to somebody else tell you what to do. You don't like those orders. You don't know what they are you're just supposed to follow them. And that's why I would never get into that because I I felt like you're giving up your rights to think if you go in the military don't you have to sign something that says like you're not going to question orders you're going to follow orders?

Rosa del Duca:

I mean I see what you're saying but no there's not a piece of paper that says you know you're not supposed to follow an order you see as really wrong which is why I felt like because I didn't know this was a fabricated war based on lies. You know it was conscientious objection like I don't think what you're doing is right now you've started a civil war in another country. Tens of thousands of civilians over there were getting killed. I don't know.

Alura del Duca:

I don't understand how. Like in order to be in the military I don't think you could question most things because your few disagree with something that they asked you to do. I think you're going to have consequences. And so you just you can't you know.

Rosa del Duca:

So even though you disagreed with what our country was doing you thought that I was kind of traitorous to get out of my military role.

Alura del Duca:

It wasn't traitorous. I didn't really care at all about. I felt like you were being I don't want I mean I guess it's if you look at it in a while like a smaller I'm trying to think of a good example like you tell somebody you're gonna babysit. And then you back out of it. I mean that's our super super different. But you know if somebody is depending on you and you say you're not going to I mean that's a poor example but I felt like when it worked for you. You were OK with it. And then when something didn't work for you you weren't willing to take the other side like the repercussions of it. Like I we'd all brought up to you Look you could get called up. You could be in a you know you could be in a war and you just kind of scoffed at it and then you're like no that won't ever happen then when it did happen you're like oh wait nevermind. And so there's a whole I told you so aspect to this. Know what it has to do with is learning the hard way. I guess for me it's kind of like well what if everybody did that. Like if everybody signed up for you know the army. And then as soon as we actually went to war they were like oh never mind.

Rosa del Duca:

Well yeah what if we did that. What if it was a war that was really unpopular and that a lot of people didn't think it was right. Would that be a terrible thing if the people who didn't want to fight in a war that they saw as wrong could get out and not fight in it.

Alura del Duca:

I think that we shouldn't even have an army then and if we have if there is a need and people feel like they need to go fight something because it's going to be a problem for us. That's when you call up and create an army. So you believe in the draft. No I mean don't have an army period don't have a standing army period. And then if there is some threat but that take with volunteers.

Rosa del Duca:

Well are you saying have the draft but have it only be an all volunteer draft?

Alura del Duca:

Yeah. If something if something happened. I mean I'm not saying...

Rosa del Duca:

I know this is a weird hypothetical.

Alura del Duca:

I think for you. I think this was my take on it is that you had this idea about what you were going to do. And you know you saw yourself as like going out there and fighting fires and being heroic and you know going and using sandbags if there was a flood. And those are all dangerous things too. And you would definitely be contributing to our community in a way that doesn't hurt others. But you'd be helping others and through that you would get a lot of you know you got a scholarship or you know college paid for you'd have you know a certain amount of money. And I think you were willing to put yourself at risk through those things that were benefiting others. But then when it came time to the other part of the agreement and you were asked to risk your life for things that you know didn't agree with then you know you kind of put it off for a while with ROTC and then you decided to do the conscientious objector. And I don't know I guess for me I'd be wondering like Well were there other options like could you have said look I don't like that. Could you put me in a certain way you know put me in a place where I am just helping or doing humanitarian things through the army or.

Rosa del Duca:

Well there's two kinds of c.o. There's one where you're in a role combat you know like you're working in an office you're a cook you're this you're that. But at that point I just felt like I didn't want to be part of the mission was the machine at all in any way because it was all contributing to something that I didn't think was right. You know if I was a cook or if I was a fueler or I'm literally fueling the machines fueling the people who I didn't think should be fighting that war. And yeah I just I didn't. I didn't want anything to do with it. Anyway at that point. But yeah I could have said or not in combat but you know.

Alura del Duca:

I guess for me it was like you had signed a contract and not fulfilling the contract I felt was a part of it is like there's always especially I think with governmental jobs there are parts of it that are like as a teacher there are a lot of things I disagree with that.

Rosa del Duca:

But you can leave that job whenever you want.

Alura del Duca:

I could yeah. And it's part of a larger system that I don't agree with either.

Rosa del Duca:

Listening to this back again is exhausting. I recorded Alura's interview last and after talking with her and hearing what she really thought that choice had brought this state of extreme emotional vulnerability back again if this is what someone who is open minded and pretty liberal someone who loves me.... If this is what she thinks of me then what do conservatives think? What do old other soldiers think? I have a pretty good idea. And on one hand I don't care. On the other hand it stings like hell to be judged by people not in my shoes, who didn't experience what I did. And it's hard to have any hope about future COs escaping some of the unfair stigma. For me it goes back to being recruited so young and so optimistic about your future. I don't know how Alura ended up being so cynical so early, growing up in the 90s, but to write the entire military off as a bunch of robots with bad intentions seems extreme. What really hurts is Alura read my book. I wanted to make sure my family was okay with everything in there so she knows how I struggled with this very thing for years. Honor my word, go to war, fulfill my contract, or take a moral stand against the war. I do get one concession from her. After all that.

Alura del Duca:

So in some ways I think it's quite commendable that you were just saying I don't agree with that at all I'm not going to do it at all and you went and found something totally different to do.

Rosa del Duca:

And I'm going to leave it there. One, I don't think it's fair to her to pick apart her interview too much after the fact and being a CO, that's what you sign up for. You agree to be judged by all sides and to have to explain your position again and again. It's your job to have conversations like this. Speaking of conversations. This is just the beginning. You have reached the end of Episode 1 of Breaking Cadence. Thank you to my mom and my sisters for candid interviews and putting up with the telling of the story in yet another format. Thanks also to Mike Carnahan for audio advice. Thanks to Nicholas Leither, my husband for the myriad of things. Thank you thank you. And to Jason Baum for being a first listener. Gratitude to the hooligan hooligans for suggesting this in the first place. You can find out more about me and Breaking Cadence the book at Rosa Del Duca dot com or hooligan at PDX edu. Coming up next:

Fanny Garcia:

What happens after that. Like nothing. Like I'll probably be a server or bartender for like this many years. I was thinking about using the military as a stepping stone.

Rosa del Duca:

I interview fellow conscientious objector Fanny Garcia.

Fanny Garcia:

And we got orders to deploy. I think that's when I said'I Don't know if I can do this."

Rosa del Duca:

She declared herself a conscientious objector nearly a decade after me, but our stories are eerily similar.

Fanny Garcia:

I think that's part of being a CO, and part of the experience is standing up for your own voice because that's something that the military takes away from you.

Rosa del Duca:

It's all on episode two breaking Caden's insights from a modern day conscientious objector.