Join Scott, Kay, Hayat, Greg, and Alex as they tackle the difficult topic of race in America and discuss how Affect Theory can be applied to DEI initiatives and be used to give us the tools we need to understand and accept each other on a more human level.
For more information about Scott and his practice, articles, videos, and more: https://linktr.ee/scottconkright
Join Scott, Kay, Hayat, Greg, and Alex as they tackle the difficult topic of race in America and discuss how Affect Theory can be applied to DEI initiatives and be used to give us the tools we need to understand and accept each other on a more human level.
For more information about Scott and his practice, articles, videos, and more: https://linktr.ee/scottconkright
Hi, I'm Scott Conkright. Welcome to meaningful happiness and the podcast that we're doing with my wonderful team here. I'm gonna let each one of them introduce themselves, because they do that very well and they've got their own stories to tell and so forth, and we are going to be talking about aphic theory and racism, in part to Talk about Martin Luther King's Contributions to the changes that have taken place over the years, starting in the 60s. Then black history month as well, and I think there's a lot that aphic theory has to bring to this topic Talks a lot about shame, which is one of the things that I'm really interested in talking about. I really feel strongly that shame is Really the hidden tool used in racism To keep people in place of One down this because when shame people want to hide, I mean it's an involuntary, involuntary bodily reaction. But then if it's culturally sanctioned to shame other people, that's institutionalized, so that's institutionalized racism, right there. It's obviously more complex than that and we're gonna be getting into those topics and I'm really excited about that.
Scott:We're also gonna talk about the other aphics to notable aphics that we're gonna get into our Dismel, which is a term that Tompkins came up with, which describes you can see this on an infant.
Scott:It describes that stinky, smell Face that they do, where they scrunch up their nose like mmm, which is different than disgust, which, as you know, is like, well, you stick your tongue out and you want to vomit. Both of those are used as part of shaming as well, and in racism, where the other is somebody contemptible that you can sneer at you, you can raise your eyebrow out, you can like look down upon. All those come from the aphics of dismal in disgust, and so they're part of our lives, and what I'm trying to do in this podcast and in others is explain how those aphics work and to make them clear, so that we all can be clear how we're treating each other as well as ourselves, so that we can have a better relationship with ourselves and with others, so on my left is Alex here, who's also Taking care of this podcast and doing the wonderful tech part of it.
Scott:I'm gonna let him introduce himself. Hey, alex.
Alex:I'm the producer of a podcast. I do periods of things for Scott some design works, website work and I Really enjoyed our discussion in so far and had a great time talking and I'm excited to get to some of these tonight fantastic, glad to have you here.
Scott:To my right is my Artistic director, I think our creative director. I keep, I'm gonna have a mall, which is what would you like to be called tonight?
Kay:I Guess tonight we can go with brand manager brand manager like that. My name is K Ross Rogers. I go by K. I am a second-year student getting my doctorate in clinical psychology and I also dabble in the creative, so I'm really excited to talk about racism and shame today. It's, it's a part of my daily lived experience and I'm excited to reflect fantastic, so glad to have you here.
Scott:Hi, you're next.
Hayat:Hi, my name is hi at the rest who and I work with Scott here as a social media manager and I recently got my master's in public health great and my name is Greg and I've known Scott for many years and I've helped.
Greg:I've been helping him with several endeavors around several projects that he's been working on and Always enjoy talking about Race and some of the issues that we deal with and really trying to help others to see things Maybe through my point of view and to a better understand when I'm coming from and where I've been and, hopefully, where we all need to go.
Scott:So that's a good about. That's a good beginning. Thanks everybody, I'm looking forward to it. Great shoes, by the way. Thank you. Yeah, you too, greg, I just looked over one. You two coordinated those right when to begin.
Scott:Let me let me start by explaining a little bit about affect theory. Affect theory was conceived of, written about by Sylvan Tompkins, I think, starting in the 60s, 20, 30 years. He wrote about it and it started with his having it looking at his first infant, his child, and seeing the different faces on this infant showing different feeling states, and he hypothesized that they signal something in the form of communication and and that were wired To, to react at that level, at an affect level that they're basically biologically innate feeling states that every person is born with anywhere on the planet, and that is what allows us to communicate. By the way, if you watch a Bollywood film or you watch a Nigerian film, ethiopian film, and you don't speak the language, you'll know when somebody's afraid, you'll know when somebody is disgusted, you'll know when somebody is excited, interested, so forth. It is from those affects that emotions are built. So basically the affects starting it Roughly around two and a half years old, when an infant can, or like a child, toddler, can start forming memories that it can remember, will develop scripts that basically are scripts around the affects what, what do I do when I'm scared? What is my family, society telling me what to do with those feelings? The memories of those are what create emotions. So one of the most important affects that we have in terms of relationships, dealing with relationships, is shame. Shame, basically, is a hindrance to the two, two positive affects, and we only have two positive affects and and in Tompkins puts them on a continuum.
Scott:The first one is interest, excitement. So anything that we care about, anything that we enjoy, anything that we find important, anything that captures our eye captures our attention. Anything that we're thinking about Positively has to do with interest, all the way up to excitement. So interest could be why is there a scratch in my door? I just bought this car, why, why is scratch? Now it's got your interest, you're now maybe get, maybe feeling distressed because your new car got scratched. Going doing a roller coaster is really exciting. That's the extreme end. The other one is Excitement, I'm sorry, enjoyment, joy, and that's where kind of like what we're doing here. I hope that we're relaxing, enjoying each other's company. It's safe. We all care about each other, fond of each other, enjoy being together, working together, which is a wonderful thing, those Complementation of those two interest, excitement and enjoyment, joy are the two positive affects that make up love. Any hindrance to that.
Scott:If all of a sudden somebody said that something nasty in here to me, I'd react involuntarily with a, with a bit of surprise, but also Kind of lowering my face is like wow, why did so? And so say that to me that's an affective shame response. Now I may have been taught by my family or my society that Showing that weakness, showing that I was affected by, personally hurt by that, may not have been allowed in my family. So the most common reaction to shame is to get angry. So you might, you might not even see my shame. I may just yell back, say what the hell, what, whatever, and have an angry defense against it. Behind that angry defense is shame With all that said this a little bit longer than I wanted to go into, but I think it's necessary to have have that as a Basis to then talk about how we dialogue around racism, because, as far as I'm concerned, any time that you're telling somebody they don't have Access to the same positive affects as you do, for whatever reasons, and you're saying, in this case by way of color of skin, that you're less than and thus you have a hindrance To the good stuff in life and good connection with others.
Scott:That's a that's a shame place to be. You're being treated with contempt and disdain, and If that's built into the laws of a country and into the mindset In everything that we do in a country like the United States, it's at the level of shame that we need to start unraveling this in making changes. I've said enough. Anybody have a reaction so far to what I've said.
Greg:You've said a lot and so it's a matter of you know. I have to process some of that. I have to process some of that and really think about that, so I may respond later. It may sound like a delayed reaction, but my brain is like processing all that right now, so it felt like a lot what I just said.
Scott:It did.
Greg:Yeah, yeah.
Scott:Yeah.
Alex:So it's about processing shame on whose part?
Scott:That is a great question. Everybody's part, I think. In my opinion, so much of what's happening right now at a national level is that there's shame in everyone to varying degrees, contrasting with trying to find pride in who they are.
Greg:And I think we also have to define what shame is, because some people may look at shame and race very differently. So I think we have to really figure out our define, maybe for ourselves. What does shame mean? How do I define that? Because you don't want somebody to think, wait a minute, are you saying I should be ashamed because of my race? So we have to define what that means so that that misinterpretation isn't out there.
Scott:And that's a great point, and that's a distinction I need to make before we go any further. When I talk about shame, what I'm doing right now in my model effect, relational therapy is not calling it, so Tompkins calls it shame, humiliation. So again on the continuum, I'm preferring to call it on the low end, disconnection, shame on the high end, because most of us think of shame as humiliation, embarrassment or that you've done something, we've done something shameful to be ashamed of, that were bad in some way, that the reason for the disconnection from the other, the reason the person's looking down on this, who? Often the person who's looking down on us or cutting off connection with them, or with us, that is is doing it contemptuously. We're being excluded. And what do we do? We internalize that and say, well, it must be me, so it's about the shame of.
Greg:Are we doing something wrong? What have I done to be treated this way or to feel this way? Not so much who I am as a person, but how I've been made to feel about this situation.
Kay:Well, I think that the two get intertwined. I'm a black American woman but I know often when I find myself having conversations with white Americans white people maybe speaking about things that we know to be fat in this country, the racism that's baked into all of our institutions and it can be met with this kind of defensiveness, as if wanting to speak to the oppression that stems from white supremacy is the same thing as saying I want you, a white person, to take the brunt of all of that and you're responsible for all of it and you should be ashamed. I'm not sure if that messaging is coming from social justice leaders People are having that argument, but I feel like that might be how things can be perceived. And then, when Scott is saying that the most natural reaction to shame is anger, I feel like we see that in this country. We see a lot of people who are very, very, very angry to have to hear that this country has a history of systematic oppression.
Greg:And yeah, that's why it surprised me so much. And I know we shouldn't be getting into politics or maybe we should, but when Nikki Haley said that we are not a racist country or we have not been discriminatory in this country, something to that effect, and that just blew me away, because that's so not true and I was wondering is she just saying that or does she truly believe that? And if she truly believes that, then we have a lot of work to do, more work than I ever anticipated, and that's both scary, but also at least maybe it's room for dialogue.
Hayat:I think it's a part of a bigger problem of which I feel like there is a good amount of people in this country that do believe that racism is done. Everything's good now that like we don't have slavery anymore, and because of.
Hayat:Obama, yeah, as if everything's fixed and there's nothing wrong in terms of that. And I we see it every day of these, either these small micro aggressions that people don't realize that are racist in their nature, or like internalized racism, systemic racism that still and those are not are not even the blatant racism that continues to exist in this country. So saying a statement like that is just. I personally feel like it's just trying to incite something or just being blatantly ignorant, because it is just a fact of this country that we have racism and we will unfortunately have it for some time more, because there are so many people who believe that there's nothing wrong with stuff they say, there's nothing wrong with stuff they do, there's nothing wrong with the system as a whole.
Greg:And I did want to clarify that Obama remark. What I meant by that was a lot of people feel like we passed discrimination and we're no longer that way because we elected a black man as president. I'm not blaming him, I'm simply saying that's what people think and that's so not true.
Scott:Yeah, so we're not racism because we had a black president, but that's not true. That's proof that we're not racist, yeah.
Alex:And I'm wondering if white people are kind of looking for an excuse to sweep racism under the rug, because I don't know if it's out of shame or not wanting to deal with it or something. Because what you said about Obama that's like just you know people looking for a reason to not have to deal with the problem. And the same with Nikki Haley, wasn't? You said Nikki?
Alex:Haley, yeah Said that racism has never existed in this country. It seems like people just not wanting to have to deal with it, or and it's an uncomfortable topic.
Greg:It's the issues. Yeah, it's an uncomfortable topic, so people oftentimes don't want to talk about it because it's uncomfortable. And also A lot of white people have been made to feel very guilty about racism, and that's one of the problems that we've been having with some of the DEI initiatives. You see, so many white people feel like DEI's attacking them when it's not, and I think that's probably a whole different topic. But I think that needs to be something that companies really look at in terms of what DEI is versus what people often think it is, from an attack standpoint or a blaming standpoint.
Scott:Well, let me say something real quickly that I want to come back to is that that's an important point of affect theory. So let's say between you and me, let's say I find out that I've done something that hurt your feelings and that I've done something unfair to you that I wasn't aware of and you bring it to my attention. I'm gonna feel shame about that. I mean, I'm gonna go damn, I care about you. That's not what my intention was and that's normal. That's a healthy, normal reaction. It is not a comfortable one.
Scott:I don't like that feeling. I hate it. When I hear people I care about, I really do. It's my responsibility to make reparations, not only just say I'm sorry, but say how can we fix this? You're important to me. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I feel like shit right now. It doesn't feel good, but let's make things right. Our country is not doing that. The bad feeling that shame brings is so uncomfortable for so many people and we don't teach how to deal with shame and we basically say it's okay to just be angry, but then we blame it on the other person. You made me feel bad.
Kay:To where, then, that becomes the focus.
Scott:That becomes the focus.
Kay:Where? Well, why are these people always saying that we're doing something wrong, that we're doing these microaggressions, that we're oppressing people? It becomes, it takes away from, I guess. And also I just wanna get into the evolutionary benefits of affect. I mean, they tell us things, discuss, tells us this is gross, don't eat it. The smell, this smells bad, try to stay away from it. They have a purpose to alert us to things that we need to be aware of.
Kay:But it's almost like we have this relationship now where, if you do anything that makes me feel any kind of negative way, now you're wrong and now I have to push back against that with everything that I got, Whereas maybe you could take a chance to figure out. Why is it that you feel shame when your black friend is telling you that something they did made you feel bad? What do you wanna do with that knowledge of hey, this doesn't make me feel good. Maybe that doesn't align with my values, Maybe I don't view myself as a person who would do that, and yet I've been made to say that I have, and it's like that's great. Now you know, Like, how can you change to better align yourself with the person that you think you are the person that you wanna be, instead of attacking the messenger for bringing something to your attention.
Scott:It's a great point, because shame is just a signal. It signals that there's a hindrance to connection. If you want the connection people in your life who are black, brown, different than you and you find this stuff out the shame tells you something important You're not connected. So the work then needs to be around connecting.
Kay:It's as simple as that. Your heels in.
Scott:Exactly, and we cut you off a couple of times. I wanna come back to you if you still have something to say around this. You addressed it, okay? All right, we're gonna.
Alex:Well, what I was going to say maybe just to reiterate your point was that, yeah, the reaction to feeling shame and a lot of people was unhealthy Comes out as anger directed at the person who made you feel that way, which hopefully, at Tech, theory and ART, can help people to learn how to process and deal with their shame and other emotions appropriately and make something constructive out of it rather than destructive.
Scott:Exactly.
Alex:Just pushing the bad feelings on other people.
Scott:Exactly so. The most common one in our country is to attack the others. It's called the compass of shame for negative, unhealthy ways of dealing with shame Attack other, attack self. Oh, look at me, I'm such an idiot. Oh, once again I screwed up. Oh, and, by the way, we all use everything on the compass of shame. We just need to be aware of what we're doing.
Alex:You could maybe what did you call it? Where you internalize it the shame, or direct it at yourself. Attack self Right, attack self. I think that is pretty analogous to like an internalized racism, maybe the feelings that you would feel being discriminated against or like you were talking about. You bring something up to somebody in the workplace and they kind of make it all about themselves rather than addressing your concerns yeah.
Greg:And that brings up an interesting point Is how do we transition this to a corporate America setting and how do we allow people to have these types of conversations in the workplace and not have them turn ugly or argumentative, or not have people feel like they're the bad guy or that they're being blamed, but simply have dialogue around? How do we move forward? How do we fix this? I know as a DEI professional, when we've rolled out DEI programs, we've gotten a lot of pushback, especially from white males who are like this doesn't include me. So I'm often wondering how affect theory can be used in the workplace. Number one around inclusion, but number two to talk about some of these things that are uncomfortable, because so much of this is being played out in the workplace and it's causing a lot of harm and ill will in issues, and so that's just something I'm often thinking about and still debating within my own head how I manage that in corporate America. So any thoughts be helpful.
Kay:You said something really interesting about white men in the workplace feeling like DEI related things don't pertain to them. I mean DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion. It's just interesting because it's literally the opposite of separating people. It's how are we all affected by working here? We're all here, we all have to work here, work as stressful as it is. Like how can we be good to each other? So it's just interesting that white men would, in your experience would not feel like that's of any value to them and it makes me wonder what you guys would say about that, about this feeling of issues of race don't pertain to me as the majority in this country.
Alex:Well first of all, I would say that inclusion doesn't really mean just one group of people. So I feel as I guess. I don't know how to put it, part of power structure. I guess in this country that it's extremely important to be involved in the process, hopefully, you know, I think we all have things that we can offer each other and, you know, just having discussions like this is probably the best way to go about it.
Greg:And I also think that using affect theory in combination with letting white males know that they are a part of diversity, especially through lived experiences, through thought processes, social, economic, neurodiversity all that is inclusive of white men. So then I begin to think, combining that with arts, affect theory. What's the best way to approach that?
Scott:This is like 10 podcasts worth of material that we've stumbled upon right now, what I'm aware of, especially as a big racquetball player, and it's a group of guys sometimes 10, 15 years older than me, and then they're usually very successful white guys.
Scott:I just recently wrote an article, which you guys will be reviewing pretty soon, on millennials and Gen Zers in the workplace the difference between pride and shame in the workplace. So in some ways, coming back to your question about how to deal with these sort of things, people in general want to feel pride wherever they're going and they don't want to be shamed for race, sexual orientation, for anything about them that makes them different. Right now there's so much transformation in this nation and in the world in general around who qualifies to be at the table. So we're either all of us brothers and sisters or we're not. As far as I'm concerned, that doesn't mean you are liking me in all ways, but you're a human being like I, am just different, and you either believe you have that set or you don't. And if you don't have that set, I don't know what to do about that, and that's what.
Greg:I was about to say. There are people who don't have that set Right, who maybe this isn't going to work for them and it never will. So maybe that's a lost cause not to sound negative, but there are going to be people, I guess, that you'll never reach, and that's unfortunate, because sometimes those are the loudest voices and then they make it seem like it's a failed cause around DE and I, when I think maybe are we making the mistake of not looking at better ways to include them and I'm really excited about art and affect theory because I think that can be a key to maybe approaching them and reaching them, and so I've been trying to figure out the best way to do that.
Scott:It is hard as a middle aged, privileged white guy you're not middle aged. Soon to be. In another 10 or 20 years.
Scott:I'm just thinking ahead, still in a very privileged position, recognizing I'm as human as you are at every is anybody else around affects If I feel excluded and if I feel like my world is crumbling around me in what I value that I've spent my life around, often unthinkingly certainly unthinkingly around race in a lot of other areas of DEI that they have not been required to think about it and look at it the way they have been over the last 20, 30 years. It is done reluctantly. The shame around that is no different than the shame that anybody else is feeling. We have the privilege of not having to have the repercussions that come with exclusion, and so that's the part where I think we can bring them in and say like boomers are now being excluded from stuff, they're too old to participate, they can't play racquetball anymore, they have to play pickleball, which is a second class sport.
Scott:Oh my gosh, I'm joking. I'm joking. That was politically incorrect statement to make About pickleball Pickleball. It's controversial in the racquetball field.
Alex:I want to go back to a couple of things that Scott and Greg brought up. You were kind of, when you mentioned differences, you kind of said it was like a very negative connotation. Like you were it's like you didn't want to say it. Now you can go with where you want, or you felt a shame of saying, like you know that we all have differences, but I think the idea of diversity is to, you know, celebrate our differences. That's kind of what diversity is.
Alex:And I think it's interesting going back to something that Greg said about, I think it was something about celebrating diversity or inclusion maybe, but it's kind of interesting for, like I noticed a lot of white ethnic groups like Italians and Greeks, and you know lots of people celebrate their own culture and you know, like New York will have a huge Columbus Day parade, oh, the Irish parades and all that, yeah, you know, yeah, the Puerto Rican parade's big those are things that aren't thought about as being kind of you know, it's just, it's normal because it's part of.
Scott:It's part that's American Right.
Alex:But when you know, I feel like when people of color start talking about feeling proud of who they are in their culture, I think a lot of white people don't maybe take it as like in a front or an attack or I don't know what. But they don't treat it the same way as say, like you know, the Italian parade.
Scott:Right, right.
Hayat:That's a good point, because I think it goes back to what Kay was saying earlier too about like.
Hayat:This idea of like. A lot of African, african-american, especially African-American culture is rooted in a lot of what they had to do during slavery and how they had to keep themselves like, keep their culture, keep something to themselves during those times, and so it goes back to the idea of oh, like. Why do we keep on? Why do they keep on bringing this up? Why the idea of like? Why aren't black people moving on from this? Why do I still have to be reminded of this history of like my ancestors, like I am not, that I keep on, I know I keep on running into this among white people where they're like I am not my ancestor, so like, don't bring that up around me or don't bring it up in, like it's not me and yes. And so I feel like sometimes those moments can be interpreted as like continuing to bring up that history and making it seem as though like, oh, so you don't want, like there's this separation from white people, and it may make you not want to express how you feel about your culture.
Kay:I feel like that ties back to what we were saying earlier about about Nikki Haley and saying that racism isn't in what never was an issue in this country. It just it goes back to a well, we're moving on from it, like, why are y'all still talking about old stuff? And it's like people always bring this up, this point up of looking at Germany and how they've dealt with the legacy of the Holocaust and how it's completely different here, where there's a collect, like we as a people feel shame that this ever happened in our country. We want to make up for it, but here you don't have that. So it's like well, why are y'all still bringing up old stuff? Cause we never resolved it, we never addressed it. Let's all get on the same page about addressing it, then we can stop talking about it.
Greg:And also I think you have to address these things, because how does that old saying go if you forget about history, you're doomed to repeat it, or what have you?
Greg:And you can already see like a lot of people are saying that's not happening unless I'll talk about this and this and the other.
Greg:And in, racism and anti-Semitism and all kinds of attacks based on race are happening more than ever in this country. And so you have to constantly talk about this stuff and you have to address it and you can't bury your head under the sand, because these things will continue to happen. And it's just, it's almost scary with what you see happening out there around all the attacks based on racism and anti-gay, and just it's ridiculous, it's crazy. And you have to continually see talk about this stuff and stand up and have those uncomfortable conversations, cause if you don't, we're never going to advance. I never thought that we'd be where we are today as it relates to racism and just how, how and your face it has become. I thought we had passed that and maybe I was just living in my own bubble, I don't know, but it's very concerning to me because if we don't continue to talk about this and if DEI goes away, like so many people want, and if people aren't constantly raising the flags around this, god knows what's going to happen to this country.
Greg:We've already slipped into a space. That is very frightening.
Scott:That's a great point. I think we have about 15, 20 minutes left. I'm going to declare that as a fact. What I'd like to say in response to that, it comes back to the article that I wrote last week on racism and the naffic theory, which is a point that I made, which is not my own, but I feel strongly around this, which is, racism is not going to change unless white people take the lead in it.
Kay:Speak on that say more.
Scott:We have a lot of control, still unjustifiably. If white people don't understand that it benefits them to change the system, they're not going to change it. It's got to be something that we see as beneficial. My preference would be because we're all human, not because I'm going to make more money because of it or something like that, but for all the right reasons which I think we all know about Part of that feeling we want to feel good. The problem with white people taking on racism as an issue is shame. It doesn't feel good. It's not how I, speaking for white people. It's not how white people want to see themselves. I don't want to see myself as a white person, as somebody who's treating people poorly, in ugly ways. I want to view myself as an upstanding, lovable, honest, good person. So what if my grandfather was racist? I'm not racist, that sort of thing. We're done with it. Now we can move on. How to change that, I don't know.
Greg:I remember at work my boss once said you'll know that DEI has been effective when you can go up to someone in the company, especially a white man, and say who owns DEI in this company, and the white man says I do. Now I think we're a long way off from that, but I think that's a goal that we need to get to, and I think so much of arts and affect theory can help us to get to that point.
Scott:It's just a matter of really pushing it and making it a priority, I think normalizing it, somebody talking about it and, in some ways, what I would like is, through DEI and through art and through affect theory, is for people to feel a sense of pride around how to deal with affects and the difficult ones, that I've learned how to deal with shame, I get that merit badge.
Greg:And we're not there yet, but I think we can be if we keep talking about it and not holding our heads in the sand, not saying stupid things like what Nikki Haley said.
Alex:Maybe instead of feeling shame about the past, we can have pride in resulting.
Scott:Making a new future. I'll tell you what the phrase is I think is most distinctive about. Affect theory around shame is. We live in a culture that's ashamed of shame. We're ashamed of our own shame. It's that bad and I think it's so pervasive in racism that it needs to be brought out of the dark. Shame hides in the dark right and it needs to be talked about. So it's normalized, it's mutualized I think is a better term where it's shared. The shame is shared with everybody and I think it's a responsibility.
Greg:I'm sorry, especially in this country because of our past. I know when I traveled to other countries, like in Germany and other countries, they were a lot more open about their past and talking about it and feeling like they've made some resolutions around how to move forward and accept the past but not repeat it. And we're not there yet.
Hayat:But I feel like on that, like I do think that there is still like widespread racism that exists in those countries. It's just a matter of I feel like in the US we do talk about it a lot more of like yes, this is racism, while unfortunately, because the history isn't as rampant in other countries of like continual fights against racism, like the Civil War was in our like parents, grandparents, lifetimes, like not even too far off, and so because we have continually fought it and we are still fighting it with, you know, police brutality and so many other aspects of racism that we see now, I think because of that, racism is a much bigger conversation in the US than it is in other countries. It's, but it's not the matter of it doesn't exist in other places. It's still very much widespread everywhere. But I think they may talk about other issues or other stuff in their history more openly, but this isn't something that they talk about as openly as maybe black people in the US do.
Alex:Right Interesting? They don't have to. You know, a lot of the issues we're discussing are effects of colonialism and colonial past and that's not something necessarily at least the negative parts of it that Europe has to deal with. You know, they left and we're here.
Kay:Yeah, I mean when, when Barack Obama was president, I remember I was in, I think, high school and there was this kind of pride of like we're a melting pot country, like everybody doesn't matter the color of your skin tone, like we all have the same opportunities here, and there was a lot of pride in that. And then now it's like it's gone the exact opposite way. It's like we don't want to be proud of the diversity of this country. It's just interesting. I mean, literally the history of this country is diversity. Like this is not. This is not a white country. This, this country, did not belong to white people. White people are just as new to this place as black people. You go back maybe another century. I mean that's not a huge amount of time. We're all foreign here. We're all foreign here and nobody's entitled.
Scott:But that's not how history is taught.
Kay:Exactly, and that's another problem, right.
Scott:So there's multiple. We just have a few minutes left. I would like you to make the next comment. Have everybody else say one last comment. I will wrap it up, but you are going to go next. Alex, Go ahead, and then we'll go around.
Alex:I had, like I think probably the most prescient one is for white people to take kind of lead on this issue or take charge of it. I guess. One thing that concerns me is I feel like we saw a lot kind of in the past few years of white people deciding for people of color to what the issues are, what they should be offended by maybe, or do you know what I mean?
Scott:So framing the narrative for them.
Hayat:And what counts. What counts as racism or this is not like as the this isn't racism. They're not specifically like the comments like yes.
Kay:Or it's just a joke, like, oh, it's just a joke.
Hayat:Yeah, that doesn't count as racism type of conversation.
Scott:Thank you, that's good.
Alex:How do we kind of lead the dialogue or I guess what's the best way to move forward?
Scott:One of the big. That's a great question. It reminds me around the affect theory. Microaggressions are micro shaming. If you feel disconnected from me and have a sense of shame, even mild or just that, hurt your feelings, hurt, disappointed, sad, left out, all those are shame related. They count Death by a thousand. Shames is still death. It means you're not included, but it's under the radar enough that it doesn't get quote, reported.
Scott:And I think right now in DEI training I know there's so many. I've heard so many people like, oh, another microaggression workshop. Like I get it, I get it, I get it. Like I'm not going to, like I was like no, you're not getting, because you're not getting the shame part of it. And so I feel like, if you add the shame part in the city and I felt disconnecting, like wouldn't you talk to me like that way? No, don't, don't, don't use that language. You're like don't even like raise your eyebrow like that, because that's like I don't, whether it's racist or not, don't raise your eyebrow with me. You're not allowed to do that, you know so in a racial context it's even worse, right? So I just want to bring that in in terms of the shame part. But that's a great, that's a great point.
Alex:Kind of had a tendency to over-categorize things, I think, and make them more complicated. Maybe putting this under the umbrella of shame makes it a little bit easier to deal with, rather than having to understand this whole other language around diversity issues.
Hayat:White fragility.
Scott:That's that we need to come back to. That would be that, what that's going to be another podcast, because I feel like that would be so helpful for white people in general around shame and what white white fragility means and what that implications of that and so forth. So I think thank you for bringing that up again. You brought up a couple great things, greg. Go ahead, or whoever.
Greg:You can find me. I don't have any other than I just.
Kay:I'd really like to. You have so much power on you, right there.
Greg:No, I'd really like to see this incorporated into DEI training in corporate America, because I think, I think a lot of.
Greg:DEI training doesn't work and I think if you use this as a foundation, I think it can go a long way. And I'd love to see this given to more CEOs who can then kind of push it through the organization to or maybe push it in the right way, but to drive it and encourage it through the organization so that people start to finally get it, and I think that could be a good tool to get us there.
Scott:I finally thank you. I'm going to comment comment about that real quickly, which is to deal with shame. Talking about shame is very vulnerable, so already you're dealing with shame and then to be able to deal with it you have to be at a vulnerable state, which means you have to trust the people around you that you're not going to be reshamed by talking about your shame, which I feel is what's happening in so much of DEI training is that people go in there. They're learning ways in which they're not doing things. They're not doing things right, Okay.
Hayat:I think we all have something to learn in the overall space of racism, diversity, equity, inclusion, all of that I feel like no matter if you're black, white, any person of color or not, or have the point of privilege of being white, we all have something to learn and I think that may be a way of like broaching affect theory and trying to convince people that, like this is not just for one group or the other, but like we all have something to learn and we all can be better in how we address all these conversations or how we interact with, you know, in having differences of opinion, or even like trying to understand something where we might feel a little shameful about our reaction or about some way that we handle anything. So I think, because of that, maybe admitting that like we all have something to learn in all these spaces could be a way.
Scott:Yeah, excellent, thanks, kay, go for it.
Kay:I'm what no?
Scott:there's been a couple of times that I know you would got it here.
Kay:I don't even remember Play one on high. She kept grabbing it to break. Sorry, yeah, I really cut this out, danny.
Scott:What I've loved about this is that's coming together and talking. I hope that the listeners can get a sense that we can have conversations like this and that we have to, and they can feel uncomfortable. And, by the way you pointed out, you picked up my shame earlier. About difference and I'm going like thank God. I word this quickly. Am I going to screw it up? And you survived. That's normal. That's normal.
Kay:You lived.
Scott:You didn't die.
Hayat:Exactly.
Kay:It was okay, we had this conversation and we're all going to leave and go eat food together and like it's going to be okay, it's okay if you feel ashamed every now and then it's okay if something's brought to your attention and you didn't realize it and you're feeling like, oh no, like I didn't realize I was doing that, I didn't mean to do that, like it's okay. I mean think about, we all have friendships, we have boyfriends, girlfriends, we have relationships. Are we always perfect people to the people that we love, that are close to us? No, but how do we bridge the gap?
Kay:How do we right the wrongs, the harm that we do to the people we care about? What do we do? We listen to them when they tell us that something hurt us. We reflect on it and ultimately we want to try to do better because we recognize that that's a relationship that matters and it's like the same thing in this country we hopefully we can all agree that like people being more united, people being more on the same page, is a goal. I don't think any of us want to keep having to have these kind of conversations where it's like finger pointing and will you say it this way and that hurt me. Well, you shouldn't have said that Like how can we, if we can just kind of treat the healing as the same way that we would want to heal harm relationships in our own lives. I feel like that will be a step in the right direction. Does that make sense?
Scott:That makes a lot of sense. There's a good wrap up. I'll do the last wrap up only because it's my podcast, it's our podcast, but kind of my niche. The meaningful happiness brand, the meaningful happiness phrasing of the way I've come up with it is really. It says a lot and nothing in the most wonderful way, I think. I think I got kind of clever with it, because we all want our lives to be meaningful and we want them. We want to be happy.
Scott:Now I don't know what meaningfulness means for you or for you, or for you for you, or what happiness is, but I think with affect theory I could say that we all want positive affects, we want to maximize those we want. We want access to as much positive affect interest. I like it when you're interested in me. You like it when I'm interested in you and when we're enjoying each other. All that feels good. If you shame me, that doesn't feel good. When I'm distressed, that's not good.
Scott:I love the Snickers. I feel like every time I bring the Snickers I add up on promoting Snickers. But the Snickers add around the hangry stuff is brilliant. That's affect theory right there. If you don't feed me for a while and I haven't gotten good night's sleep. I'm as mean and nasty as anybody else. Give me something to eat.
Scott:Our humanness is in our affects. I think that that makes us more human than anything else, no matter what you're going to feel certain things. If I treat you in certain ways, and the more I treat you in positive ways and you do the same back to me, the better the world is, the more meaningful happiness, no matter how you define it, the more of that is able to grow among us. And that sounds a little bit kumbay-ish, but I really do believe, and so did Tompkins, the founder of affect theory, that you want to maximize positive affect and minimize negative affect. How do we do that? We understand how affect work. We understand especially when it comes to being with people and relationships and intimacy. We need to learn how shame works, and in racism. Again, as we end this, I feel like shame is pervasive. Everywhere you turn, there's some type of shame dynamic going on and that has to be called out and stopped. And thank you, this was an adventure, wasn't it? I felt good about this. Thank you everybody.
Kay:Shame. Check what's everyone's shame levels at right now. Out of five. Out of five Awesome, no shame, no shame.
Scott:Yeah, I'm good. No, it's hope that it can be true for you too. Audience that there's, and if you're feeling shame again, that's normal and it's just a signal that something needs to change, whether it's around racism or in your relationships with yourself or with others. Thank you, see you next time.