Join Scott, Kay, Greg, Alex, and Hayat on a journey to decode the complexities of relationships and love. We discuss the importance and difficulties of communicating your needs, setting boundaries, and understanding you and your partner's feelings; and how Affect Theory can help us to overcome these challenges and guide us towards meaningful happiness with the important people in our lives.
For more information about Scott and his practice, articles, videos, and more: https://linktr.ee/scottconkright
Join Scott, Kay, Greg, Alex, and Hayat on a journey to decode the complexities of relationships and love. We discuss the importance and difficulties of communicating your needs, setting boundaries, and understanding you and your partner's feelings; and how Affect Theory can help us to overcome these challenges and guide us towards meaningful happiness with the important people in our lives.
For more information about Scott and his practice, articles, videos, and more: https://linktr.ee/scottconkright
Welcome to the Meaningful Happiness podcast with Dr Scott Conkright. On today's episode, we discuss love and affect. Scott is joined by Kay, Greg, Alex and Hyatt. We hope you enjoy the show and thank you for listening.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, scott Conkright here, founder of Meaningful Happiness and a podcast that we're doing which is about meaning and happiness and finding out what elements make meaning and make happiness happen, because if somebody knew by now they would have a Nobel Prize. Right, we are not claiming that we know the answers to that. In fact, part of my premise is that it's everybody's job to do the work to find out what's meaningful and happy, what meaningfulness and happiness is for them, and we're going to try to give you some goals because we have really wonderful talent right here. My team and I'm going to have them introduce themselves before we start. But I want to let you know we're talking about a very exciting subject tonight that I know will interest you, which, of course, is love, and everybody here knows all about that. They have all the answers, so by the end of the podcast you will be so informed. If nothing else, you'll enjoy the journey. I hope so.
Speaker 2:Again, I'm Dr Scott Conkright, sometimes called the AFFEC doc, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Happiness and the Relationship Workshops, and this is a podcast. I think number six or seven, I can't remember. So whatever number, it is happy to be here and talk about affective relational theory and tonight about love. So to my left is I'm Greg.
Speaker 2:Say a little bit about yourself, Greg we know you're Greg.
Speaker 3:I'm Greg Nance.
Speaker 2:Okay, no, what's your favorite color?
Speaker 3:Green. Okay, good. Yeah, I don't know what else to really say about myself other than.
Speaker 2:I do these podcasts. What do you do? What do you do for a living? What do I do? What do you do for?
Speaker 3:me what do you do for this team? What do I do for a living? Well, I'm in diversity, equity and inclusion Got it, and also human resources Great, and I'm still trying to figure out what I do for the team.
Speaker 2:I thought you were project manager. That's what I'm paying you for, right Okay?
Speaker 3:I'm trying to be a project manager. All right If I can just get it all together. Yeah, and that's a little bit about me currently looking for a job because I was laid off and looking to move into DE&I or HR, and it's life, it happens, so you deal with it and you move on.
Speaker 2:We're putting the message out there right now. Thank you, so it might get manifested, who knows.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Hey, I'm Alex. I'm working for Scott to help produce this podcast and doing some things to manage his websites.
Speaker 2:Excellent, glad to have you here.
Speaker 4:Hi, I'm Hayat and I'm working with Scott as the social media manager, and I also have my Masters of Public Health.
Speaker 5:Hi, I'm Kay. I am a doctoral student in clinical psych training to become a psychologist, like Dr Scott here, and I'm the brand manager. I just make sure things look good. So I hope things look good.
Speaker 2:And they do, and they do. I am very proud of everybody around me right now and I'm so excited to have them as part of my podcast, because everybody has a lot to say. I'm going to start by asking my team here how they would define love, and I'm going to respond to that after they do. By the way, there's no right or wrong. This is not a quiz. This is not a test you don't like. Nobody passes or fails or anything like that, but we all have preconceived notions, not preconceived notions.
Speaker 2:We've grown up with different ideas about what love is, and one thing that I want to do is challenge some of those notions about what love is, because if we don't challenge them, we're not only going to have false expectations about what could happen in a relationship we're going to have false expectations about what the other person can do for us but we're going to have false expectations about ourselves as well, and so one of the things I believe very strongly about affect theory and affect relational theory is that it really provides some tools to be able to love oneself better and to love others better. I have my own crazy notions about love, but I'm curious about what your crazy notions about love are. By the way, I just want to tell you, freud, if you don't know this, said that love was a psychotic state which maybe starting with that, but it kind of can be, depending on what type of love you're talking about. So that's one of the nuances, but I'm just going to open it up to what is love.
Speaker 3:That's been the age-old question for me. I don't know, I really don't. I don't know what love is. Is it a feeling? Is it a thought? I mean, I love my family most of the time. No, I do. I love my friends very much, but in terms of how I ever been in love? Maybe once, and it was just the typical feeling where you have the butterflies in your stomach and you just want to see this person all the time and you thinking about them and you want to be with them all the time. And one of my love languages, my main love language, is touch. So I'm just always touching and from a loving standpoint, and I don't know I'm rambling here, but I still struggle with what is love for me. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'm still trying to figure out. So in the case of intimate love, in the case of romantic love, there's a bunch of pixie dust that makes you feel like this person, somebody you want to touch nonstop.
Speaker 3:Yeah, For me the whole world could be imploding. And as long as you're with this person, everything's okay. That's kind of how I think about it. Now there's this dubious commercial Remember those dubious commercials and the lady is holding her, a man and she's like I love this man, I just love, love, love this man. I know that's cheesy, but that's kind of. I always thought wow, that's what I would want no-transcript. Nothing wrong with that?
Speaker 2:That is that high, and is that your, your idea?
Speaker 4:too. I think I agree with a lot of what Greg said, but for me personally, I have never experienced romantic love or being in love, so I don't know that aspect of it, but I think For like the love I have for my friends and my family. I think it's just this Strong connection or bond that may be built of like similar or shared experiences, but also it's one where, like, I can't imagine my life without the, without like what they have added to my life, or without like having their perspective in my life. So I think, like I don't know what I think about it, that is one way I think I can frame the people I love versus like people I like, or like you know my quintuences. I think that's like maybe something that like differentiates those bonds.
Speaker 2:I like that. So so far, I just want to point out that with the feeling, the subjective feeling, of being in love, their safety, there's a sense of that if you didn't have the family and friends, it wouldn't be a meaningful and happy world, right? That would be pretty traumatic to not have them, and the fantasy is that if you had this wonderful, idyllic person, all obstacles could be faced together In the world could be imploding. It'd be a nice implosion because you're gonna be doing it together, okay, so that, so you're not alone. That's a big part of the sense of romantic love, but I think it's also part of familial, parental love and so forth.
Speaker 2:Is that you have somebody there that makes your life meaningful. It's safe, right. So happiness and meaning Go with safety. In many ways Impredictability, right, like they're. The wonderful thing about family is that they will always be there to some degree their life. You know they're always gonna be in your life in some ways. The worst thing about family is they're always gonna be there in your life, right? So it's a double-edged sword and I'm saying that humorously, but there is struggle at times.
Speaker 4:But it's also the people who have known you since birth, usually so like well, your parents certainly your parents or, like sometimes, an older sibling and stuff, have been there from birth, and so you have known them pretty much your whole life right so in a way it's like you don't know anything other than them.
Speaker 5:And I'm already getting in it with my cynical, with my sister's most cynical romantic out there. But no, I'm just kidding at the point of like I feel like love it's both a choice and it's not a choice. For I feel like with family maybe it's less of a choice, but I mean you still make that choice to have family in your life, like it. We take that for granted, but you really don't have to. You can, you know, choose how, how close you want to be to people in your life or not, whether that's family, friends.
Speaker 4:I think that brings up the topic of, like you know, sometimes people do want to be mothers or parents for the sake of having this person, this child that's gonna love them no matter what and so like sometimes, when People have children, they have this expectation that, like their child is gonna love them no matter what, no matter, without any conditions or anything like that.
Speaker 4:So that goes to your point of like sometimes there isn't a choice really, but like when you think about it from the parents side, sometimes they expect it, this like unconditional love from their children.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think a lot of kids like we. I think we all know that our parents should like love us Unconditionally. But I don't think kids think about you know, their parents having the same expectation of them, which can be me different. It can be difficult, I think, when you're not clear on that, because I don't know, it's like hmm.
Speaker 5:There's the love that you have for people just because, like you're saying, they're in your life forever and they've been there for you and they and been good for you. But what do you do when the people that are supposed to love you like hurt you? What do you do with the people that you love? You know cause you, cause you harm and how do you choose to. You know, stay with them. You know, stay there for that love. That's there or Maybe not, and maybe, you know, pursue something else.
Speaker 2:You've gone way too deep, way too fast. Which I love you, for those are wonderful issues, you know. I think both of you, everyone so far, has brought up the complexity of what love is. So With parents, you know I have a child. Is she required to love me? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. But it's, it's a, it's a. I would hope she loves me. I believe she does. I love her.
Speaker 3:You're not required to love your family. It's just a family we're born into and hopefully you will love your family. But just because of your blood doesn't mean you have to love them.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Friend once told me I don't know if it's something that can be required.
Speaker 2:I don't believe it can be required. I mean, I think that I have to earn that through my relationship with her, as I would with anybody else, and you can't force somebody to have a feeling about you right.
Speaker 2:So this is where affects come in. What are those feelings that create love? So when you think of Parents and you think of family and so forth, you have a lot of commonality right. So you have a lot of shared interests and they're also safe for me. Back to this issue of safety, enjoyment, the affect of enjoyment, joy, which is one of the two Positive affects that we have. So again for those of you just joining in to affect theory, there are nine affects.
Speaker 2:Sylvan Tompkins, being the father of being the founder of affect theory, tended to like to have them on a continuum. So many of the affects he puts on it like, like fear, terror. For the two positives, its interest, excitement. In the second one is enjoyment, joy. The enjoyment is Really one when you see kids, when you see infants, for instance, toddlers and babies and toddlers. It's that big beaming smile when they know that they're just delighted to be with you. It's a safe world, everything feels good. There's no poopy diaper, there's no hunger, there's no Sickness or things like that. They're just in a good place.
Speaker 2:You can think evolutionarily that when you're inside the cave or inside the tent or inside wherever, and all the bad things are out there, you're with family and people you love in a safe environment and you can relax and go. Ah, we're gonna all smile together, have a meal, because you can't really have a meal when you're out fighting. Okay, so the meal time is a safe time most of the time, unless unless you're in complete distress and Unless it's Terror right, I mean, you're gonna eat only for nourishment in In more time, things like that. But normally Eating is a family activity or with close people, people you care about, and it means that it's safe, ideally, ideally, ideally, interest, interest, excitement is what wouldn't.
Speaker 2:When you find somebody that you really think is amazing, when you meet somebody, whether it's a friend, whether it's a romanticist interest or not, but when you find somebody that you think he or she is so cool, you want to know all about them. Hey, let's go for a cup of coffee. Tell me about you. Oh, oh, that that really. You've been there too, like you. Oh, you read that book. Oh well, you're studying psychology. What? What theoretical model are you following? You know that sort of stuff when we meet somebody.
Speaker 2:That's what we want to do. We want to we the effect, the biologically. There's a biological neurological wiring that we have that gets us to go out into the world and learn about things. This is what toddlers, infants and toddlers do. They're always getting to trouble. Why do you think you lock the cabinets so they don't drink, lie and poison and things like that? Because they're curious, they want to know about everything. How do you see, how do you teach? So what, what, I should say, what's in place? Given this, given this biological impetus to go out there and be curious, what helps? What helps the human say, oh, I shouldn't be interested in that?
Speaker 5:I'm guessing the negatives the negative affects.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I picked this up. It is poison, I and I spit it, I taste it and it tastes like puke or it tastes horrible. I'll spit it out. It'll be the affect of Dismel if it's stinky or disgust if it tastes bad.
Speaker 1:And I just learn don't do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not doing that one anymore. In relationships, the barrier to positive connection is shame. It's not about doing something shameful. Could be that you did something shameful, depending on the culture that you're in, and so forth. The bottom line is it as an evolutionary, biological basis as well as a narrative basis. If you do something that gets that in which the other person that you want connection with says, you're gonna have a have a reaction that's usually called a shame-based reaction. You're gonna lower your head, you're gonna be frumple, get frumpy at what I call the shrug of shame, which, which is a signal that says I've done something that's that's not allowing me to connect. I Just told you to go to bed. If I have to tell you one more time, no, all right, we have to do that to train kids In a loving relationship. Would you disappoint your parents? Or your partner says I don't like when you do that, it's teaching us that we have to do something different to make that relationship work. So it's a normal reaction.
Speaker 2:How do you normally think of shame when you think of relationships? Because most people don't. Most interestingly, shame is the number one problem in relationships, but right now, psychologically, in the therapeutic field. We don't talk about shame in that way that I know of. That. Shame is when people come in and say that there's, they're having a problem, a couple is having a problem or kids are having a problem with the parents, the parents have a problem with kids. It's usually not talked about as a shame-based issue, when in fact it is. It is usually not talked about as an affective disorder, when in fact it is 90% more. I'm just making it up. A large number, a large percentage of depression and anxiety is shame-based.
Speaker 3:Well, it seems like shame is at the base of every negative issue. As I think back, you know, like being laid off from a job, there's a lot of shame because, even if you didn't do anything wrong, it still feels like you failed, which feels like it's shame. It's shame, it's shaming, you know. Or if a relationship doesn't work out, then you begin to shame yourself or think you did something wrong, right, because there was a barrier to what you wanted, you wanted that job, you wanted that relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think that's a natural cause, and maybe people just don't think of it in those terms, but I think that's a normal part of any negative situation that comes up.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. The point that I'm trying to make with this is that thinking about it from a shame-based perspective, from an affective, relational perspective, is a lot simpler. So as a therapist, I can get to the issues faster. When you're thinking as laypeople, why is my relationship not working? Why do I feel so bad when he or she doesn't call me back or text me? And I really wonder that connection that way? Well, you're probably going to slump like when it's time to go to bed and they didn't respond to you. You're like, uh oh, maybe maybe they'll call me back. Oh, maybe maybe they'll call tomorrow.
Speaker 2:That's a biological, involuntary response is what I'm trying to stress to not getting what you want positively. The problem is is that by the time you're 11, 12, whatever and up, you've had numerous experiences of disappointment, shame, relationship problems, family issues, hopes dashed, whatever that flood you because of the biological trigger. So the important thing for me is to help people understand hey, pay attention to the shame-affect biological trigger so that you know not to get triggered with all, not get flooded with all the rest of the stuff that the biological response is normal.
Speaker 3:But it's hard for a lot of people to get to that point right and to figure that out. Well, if they don't know the theory, they won't know. Yeah, but even naturally sometimes people don't know how to get there, even without knowing the theory, because it doesn't come natural. For a lot of people it's a learned behavior. Almost At least it seems that way to me.
Speaker 2:Well, the affect is not learned. That's my big point. The affect is not learned. The emotional response is learned. That's what I'm talking about the emotional response. So you can change their emotional response. That is in therapy. That's something you can change. I cannot change your biological wiring around the affect.
Speaker 5:Okay, I mean you're getting at when we rationalize our feelings. I think the point you're making is that our emotions are, and what even Greg is saying is that our emotions are learned and, like you're saying, you'll have the negative affect or whatever. The dismal disface, shame. But you might not know why you feel that way. So then the emotion. That's when the emotion comes in. Well, I've decided that it must be because I'm really jealous of so-and-so or it must be whatever specific reason. But then it's interesting because it's like when you go back to the affect and you get to whatever, it is the root of like. Oh well, this person is like is disgusting to me, or like they're dissmelling to me, or what have you. It really does say a lot. I don't know. It just makes you think about like you'll date somebody and you'll be like there's something about this person. I should like them, but they're giving me the egg and I don't know why they're giving me the egg.
Speaker 3:Pay attention to that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, pay attention to that, like that kind of trades it backwards, like what is it specifically? Is it the way that they chew their food or is it the way that they dismiss your ideas, like all of those things. I think that's the benefit of affect. It's like you can get to the bottom of things. What's really bothering you.
Speaker 2:When you go to a restaurant. I had a friend that just went to some island in the Caribbean and everybody ordered the same thing and two of them ate it and two of them didn't. Because the two that didn't eat it went there's something off about it and the two were too hungry and they just like, went in and did it. Well, the two that didn't eat it were fine the next day. You can imagine where I'm going with the story. I think it's sort of like the same thing with a relationship If it feels a little off, it's probably not a good thing for you. It's probably going to make you sick in the morning, so to speak. Along the lines of when you meet somebody.
Speaker 2:The language that we use when we're in love or really into somebody is I could just gobble you up, or I could just gobble her up, or you could just gobble him up. You want to take them in, you want to ingest them. When things go south, what do you say? You make me want to puke. You're disgusting, you're sick, you're a piece of shit. I want you out of my body.
Speaker 2:So the metaphors around the affects tell us and form us about what we're feeling. Pay attention to that they're bodily metaphors. You know the things that you want to say. I'm not quite sure about this relationship. All my dreams are about vomiting. I'm just making that up, but you know what I'm saying. Pay attention to that dream. So, along those lines, when I think of you and your family, I picture a really warm family, really enjoying themselves and showing lots of interest in what you're doing. Maybe I'm idealizing your family, but from the outside it sounds like you enjoy that and you can count on their being interested in you and enjoying you. When you come home, they don't say that you're a piece of shit.
Speaker 4:No, they ask about everything and anything.
Speaker 4:You'd rather that than they're not yeah, I I do think that, like sometimes there are different ways of showing your love and for them it's interest, but also in a way of, like you know, showing that they care about you by being very much like okay, like what are you doing, why are you doing this? And questioning a lot of stuff, and sometimes that can feel like Helicopter parenting at times, but I think it's more about like showing their love by showing that like we care about everything you do and Want to be part of it as much as we can.
Speaker 2:Part of caring. So we'll go back to interested and interest. Excitement that includes care, curiosity, desire, interest, of course all those things that that bring you close to somebody. They bring proximity In a healthy relationship, especially in a healthy long-term relationship with somebody, whether it's family or a romantic one. If you know me well and I walk in after a long day you might know from the look of my face that I need some time. And You're responding to me like hey, looks like you had a hard day. Well, sometime by yourself, do what. And I say yes, you showing that you care by giving me space right.
Speaker 1:I think this like is an area where boundaries come into play and respecting those is very important, because I, my parents, are kind of similar in the sense that they sort of maybe tend to pry or they get a little bit too interested in my life and you know, sometimes you want them to back off a little bit and you have to communicate that to them and hope that they respect that.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what I'm getting at. So being an intrusive parent Doesn't work. Sometimes, just Hanging out with them and not asking questions, but being open to having a conversation, it's gonna probably give you more Than if you ask how was your day, how was school? Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine.
Speaker 5:How many people get caught up in that cycle like I? Like every to sit calm.
Speaker 5:That's the dynamic between parents and the kids Parents are, or a prying and the kids are over it. It's kind of sad. I've been watching this a prano lately and like the kids in that show it's good, the kids in that show at that same kind of thing, where it's like Tony wants Tony and Carm want to be like in their life. Like you know, they struggled and so I think it comes from that too, like your parents love you so much and like they've been through so much hardship. They just want to make sure you're not going through the same. So they're crying, they're prying in, but you're like I'm just gonna live, like first of all, I'm just trying to live. Second of all, sometimes I tell you things and you react in a way that I don't want to deal with, so you just shut down and then it leads to where the kids are being, are feeling like Disconnected from the parents and the parents are feeling disconnected from the kids and like no one really knows how to what is the word bridge that gap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's like you mentioned sitcoms. That's like the main premise of like most sitcoms is that they don't communicate properly, like all of these crazy antics or issues that they get into would just be alleviated by you know communication right, like Not inviting the boss over for dinner, but there's some like weird situation going on in the house, kind of a bad example.
Speaker 1:But um, I Find I definitely do have a lot of issues in relationships Communicating my boundaries and setting boundaries, because that can feel intimidating. Sometimes you don't want to bring up to your partner or the person in your life that you care about that you're displeased with something they're doing or that you I Don't know, I guess expressing your needs or that, like you're rebuking like their interest, like yeah right.
Speaker 4:You don't want to make it seem as though like, oh, like, I don't want you to show any sort of like curiosity or interest about me, but you want to limit it a little. But I think sometimes it's also different person to person. I think that also sometimes goes back to like love languages of like the way I handle, the way my parents like React to things and the way my siblings see it are different. Like they may Want to set like stronger boundaries with my parents than I may want to.
Speaker 4:Like I may be more okay with it Than they are just because, like you know, the way we accept love is also a little different person to person.
Speaker 2:I think yeah it's a good point. I'd like to clear something up like that. I forget who came up with the love language stuff. Like my patience, bring it up all the time. It's pretty common for people to use that.
Speaker 2:From affect relational theory point of view, there are only two effects that Encompass love. Okay, so they're really only two love languages, which is interest, excitement, enjoyment, joy If there's a problem in your relationship. And actually, alex, this interesting thing about boundaries Goes back to shame as well. So I'm gonna try to weave this as best I can, sticking first to the the love language part, which is Having to tell somebody You're asking me a million questions when I come home Gets up my nerves and kind of pushes. You know, like, just leave me alone, like I, I don't, I want, I want you around, but not what you do it that way, you know. But it's also like if somebody's giving a massage, you want it and you don't like the way they're touching you, you're out, you take just softer. Okay, it's the same sort of thing. Just like you just Just calm down, just be with, just be with me, just shut up and just hang out, hang out with me.
Speaker 2:The fear of sharing that often is that the person is gonna have a reaction that's gonna cause you shame, that there's gonna be a disconnection with that person. As opposed, they're saying hey, you know that up I Get really enthusiastic. I was missing you, I Could jump all over, I could gobble you apart now and he clearly don't want to be gobbled up. Right now we're in two different places, but we're still love each other. We still care about each other. I needed to have that information.
Speaker 1:So from like, and so from like an ART perspective. What is a kind of good way to deal with that shame that you feel or that Anxiety you might have about bringing up things like that?
Speaker 2:That's a. That's thank you. That's a great question, my first. I First want to say that I Been doing therapy for 30 some years, so having difficult conversations with people in clinical practice as well as in romantic relationships. I've been have a personal life and in the midlife myself. It never gets easy.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Difficult conversations are difficult conversations, right, mm-hmm? What I do know is that there are ways that work better than others for me to get my needs met in a relationship you know. For me to say, to say just very honestly you know, I want to. I always start with a positive. I want to stay connected with you, mm-hmm, I really love our time together. I just want to remind you you're wonderful, like I love you. You're great.
Speaker 2:I Don't think you understand sometimes what it's like for me to come home and have, after seeing all these patients, like needing some time. I Pick up your enthusiasm I know it comes from a good place. I brought this up a couple times about You're needing to tone it down a little bit and you're not turning it down, hmm, and I feel like I'm gonna start getting more distress and maybe even angry and resentful if we don't work this out. Do you want to work this out with me? Because I don't think it's an issue about love. I don't think it's not an issue about interest, excitement, enjoyment. It's an issue about how to manage all the other stuff in between.
Speaker 1:Right, if the interest excitement wasn't there, you probably wouldn't try to deal with it in the first place. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:So. You want to, you want to, you want to stress with that person there's all this good stuff, these other small things are just things are getting in the way.
Speaker 1:I do worry, though, that by bringing up a positive thing every time you have an issue, you sort of conditioning your partner to Be anxious, like about if you you fair enough for you know.
Speaker 2:By the way, you know I'm just kind of staged the way I'm Framing it. We could do some scenarios in which I think it would keep me more realistic, because you're right. But you do want to say, hey, let's. I can't even do it with an irritated way, you know. Hey, listen, give me some time, but let's come back and talk about, by the way, when we do, when we do come back and talk about it, I might be even agitated. This is the fourth time that we talked about this. I feel there's a great relationship, but you're fucking it up right now. It is getting on my nerves. What can we do about it? What? What is it about my coming home that you want to jump all over me and not give me time?
Speaker 5:I want to switch it so. I think we talk about the perspective of the person who has to set the boundaries all the time, especially in our individualistic American culture. Like every like, we're all about cutting people off. Right now, we're all about protecting our peace. So I know that people feel empowered to do that, and it was a little bit more than they did maybe 10 or 20 years ago. But let's, let's put ourselves in the perspective.
Speaker 5:The person has to hear this, even if they are the one in the wrong because they are the one who's doing the thing that's hurting you or whatever. But can we, like can, put ourselves to the psyche of that person? What are they hearing when we say these things and how can we say it in a way that is powerful to them, even though person like I don't know there's tons people in my life like this.
Speaker 1:It's like why do I?
Speaker 5:have to keep like tempering my, my feelings to make you feel good or whatever, but I guess that's important for relationships.
Speaker 3:So it's like Does that only happen to you in relationships or everywhere?
Speaker 5:like and just like it, school, at work or yeah, but it's like with those situations, I expected to be that way. So it's like this is just part of the territory of having to have a job or whatever, having to go to school. But I think when you get to the friendships and the and the dating relationships, it's like, well, I should just be able to be my truest self with you, and that's not always gonna be a pleasant person, but I also get that I need to be pleasant to you if I want you to like Continue, if I'd like to engender positive feelings in the relationships. Hmm, so I guess, how do we have more compassion for the person that we're having to have these Conversations with? Or do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a hard balance to maintain.
Speaker 5:Yeah, but.
Speaker 1:I guess that's part of setting your boundaries to, if I guess, if you're constantly feeling like you have to sacrifice something of yourself to Accommodate other people.
Speaker 5:Maybe that's relationships. I mean, there's got to be a degree of give and take. So I guess, come it just again, coming back to that, and we're also speaking to something of like there are people in our lives who are clean, or people in our lives who have anxious attachments, and so they're always gonna, like you choose to be in a relationship with some of the Aches attachments, you that you know that that's how they are. So it's like, how do you work with that person? Curious?
Speaker 2:because I Don't feel like I need to answer that directly, but I think that'd be a great thing to come back to. Did you have a reaction to my raising my voice and being wouldn't ask about how I might do it in a cranky way?
Speaker 5:No, I'm often the cranky one. Okay, I am that person and I've had. I feel like an asshole.
Speaker 2:So you heard yourself in me a little bit there, yeah.
Speaker 5:And then I don't know, there's a person in my life who I feel like I don't have a ton of patients for, but I do love this person a lot and so I feel like an asshole when I have a cranky reaction. That is justified. But I want to do that less because, like I don't know, it gets into this dynamic where it's like one is the pursuer and one is the Distancer, yeah, yeah, and like I think I'll be the distancer and from my perspective it's like well, I'm distancing myself because you're doing this, but from that person who's pursuing you, it's well, I'm pursuing you because I care about you and I feel you slipping away from me. So how do you like navigate that dynamic?
Speaker 2:But you're at questions, Greg, how would you? I just put you on the spot so you could tell me to like?
Speaker 3:No no no way. No, I'd have to think about that one a little bit. You did put me on the spot, but that's okay. Tonight my mind is wandering all over the place.
Speaker 2:These are things, by the way, I want other people to respond. Of course, these are difficult subjects for people to talk about, and these are all the issues around love. So how do you to maintain interest, excitement, enjoyment, joy with people? It means navigating the negative effects as well. So the basic Tompkins blueprint, as it's called, is you want to maximize the positive effects, minimize the negative ones. How do you do? That is so far it's been mostly in art, I think, with understanding affects.
Speaker 2:Affect relational theory brings more of the science into it, but it's always going to be a science and an art. There's never. If somebody on social media says this is how you do, it run, because it's not how it works, I mean it's just too nuanced, it's too complicated, there's too many variables. What you can do is have a basic understanding of how the affects work, know what distress is, know what shame is, know what the positive ones are, know how they're tied up with cultural narratives, narratives that we're born with, around what it means to be in love and the need to challenge all that. So the complexity of it is immense and we live in a world where we want everything to be simple and bite-size and it just ain't that way.
Speaker 5:So many people again cut off culture. As soon as it stops being that people are cuttin' it off. But then for some people, everyone doesn't want to get married, everyone doesn't want to have a long-term relationship. But for the people that do, how do you get from the place of well, I'm protecting my piece, I'm not dealing with XYZ, cut it off? How does that then lead to a marriage that lasts for a long time, if that's something that that person also wants?
Speaker 2:That's a good question, Hyatt. You know the answer to this one, right?
Speaker 4:No, that's a big one. I have not gotten there so I cannot answer it really. But to your earlier point, I think a big part of it is you recognizing that like you feel like you're overwhelming a part of that conversation is a big step, can you say?
Speaker 4:more about that Like I think realizing that okay maybe I am the one who's like pulling away all the time, and maybe they are starting to feel some type of way about it Like realizing that in itself is like the first step towards it. I think a way that you brought it up of compromise and any relationship. I think a part of that is when we do have these conversations of, okay, either we're telling them about our boundaries or anything like that, maybe creating a space so that they can then share in that same conversation how they're feeling or if there's anything else that they want to bring up to in this like open conversation so that it doesn't just feel like you are sharing your boundaries, but maybe in the span of you indicating your boundaries, they may realize boundaries that they want to instill in their relationship.
Speaker 4:So I think, maybe that's like a step that can be taken to like make sure both sides feel comfortable in that conversation.
Speaker 1:So maybe establishing with that person kind of here are some things that I tend to do and establishing like a way in which you communicate these things or at least discuss sort of that type of thing ahead of time.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you know, talking to your partner or whoever like. I'd like to be able to talk to these. Sorry, I'd like to be able to talk about these kinds of things with you. How do we go about that?
Speaker 4:or here's kind of how I communicate and how would that work best for you, because there may be aspects of you showing interest in them that they may have felt uncomfortable about that, like they just hadn't voiced and maybe that space will allow them to also make their boundary and indicate like that this wasn't as comfortable for them, or it could be the opposite.
Speaker 5:And with boundaries, talk about often what I don't want you to do but boundaries are also what I need you to do.
Speaker 5:I don't know, maybe there's a different word for it than boundary, but it's like here's what I need you to do. So maybe for the distance pursuer dynamic, the distance or may have a need, a boundary for like space. But for the pursuer, they may have a need slash boundary for, like okay, you can have space for me, but, like you know, say I love you and you my time, like I just need you to say the words I love you and then go, take my time and like that's fair. I think that we get again in our cut off culture, individual, slick American culture. It's very much me, me, me, and if it's not meeting my needs, then whatever. Like I'm not dealing with it. But I don't know, is it valid for people to have expectations of you and have things that they want from you in order to feel loved?
Speaker 3:I think that's part of being in a relationship is you have expectations of each other, and I think the only way to survive in a relationship is to have those conversations. And one thing I've often said is in whatever relationship I get into, I want to make sure that we're openly and honestly communicating regularly, because sometimes in some of my past relationships I would just shut down and that would just make things worse. A lot of that was shutting down because I felt shamed or shamed I've shamed myself, and so I think a lot of that is about communicating and setting those expectations regularly, not just up front in the beginning, but throughout the relationship.
Speaker 5:How do you get people to know that you mean it?
Speaker 1:I've been the one.
Speaker 5:Yeah, just being a naturally very honest and blunt person, I feel like I tell people all the time like, be that way with me too, but I feel like most people don't know that I mean it, you know what I mean. Like you can say how you feel, but then they don't really trust that you mean that, so they're not actually going to say how they feel.
Speaker 3:I think it's a matter of continuing to build that relationship and maybe there's a reason that is within their own, that maybe they're having their own issue around trust issues and maybe that's about them and that's something they need to explore and you can help them explore that. But I think constantly communicating and living that truth and living those expectations, walking the walk, I think, makes a difference.
Speaker 2:I know that we need to wrap up here pretty soon. The commonality of what you all just said and I think everybody had some really insightful things to say what I heard is that correct me if I'm wrong? But the commonality of what I heard is the need for dialogue, that it needs to be open into dialogue, it needs to be safe dialogue and the trust around that. No, I do mean it when I said tell me what you feel, just keep talking, bring up. You may not trust me initially around this.
Speaker 3:Because somebody would have been hurt so often, it should have down so often that they're not going to trust you. It's going to take continuous efforts to get them to finally do that. Like when you beat a dog so much, they become afraid of you. So I think you have to do the same thing with people.
Speaker 2:That's a great point because also in a relationship, you're dealing with somebody who's had prior relationships for the most part not always but they have fantasies about prior relationships and they bring those to it. So they bring their own fantasy life and their own expectations. It hopes right, it hopes about the word. You're going to disappoint them and it's not always going to be about you in that sense. I mean, yes, it's got, has your name on it, but it's really not about you in the sense that you let them down, but that's because they didn't have the right expectations.
Speaker 5:They brought something from the past to the present.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:And you have no way of knowing that Right?
Speaker 2:So again, that goes back to dialoguing and, lastly, around solving problems in relationships. Stop doing like that. When you tell people to stop doing something and complaining, that is not dialoguing, by the way. That's a monologue and that's an order. People get defensive automatically. They say, hey, can we talk about this? Let me tell you how I'm feeling and, of course, I want to know how you're feeling. This is not working right now, like I'm just really irritated. Like just right now, just really irritated Because once again, you do this. But let me get some food in my belly and calm down and then let's talk, because I want this to work. So let's talk about dialog.
Speaker 2:Don't attack. If you attack and say stop doing that, I hate it. When you do this, all that sort of stuff You're setting up, you're setting it up for the other person Just have to defend what they did, and then it becomes about that particular issue as opposed to what it feels like to be together. Ultimately, people want to feel good together, right? I want to know that you're interested in me and that you enjoy me.
Speaker 2:Whatever is in the way of that causes shame. Let's discover what's in the way. That's how I'd like to end. Is that there really is hope about understanding how these things work so you can identify it and say like oh yeah, you know I brought a lot of distress from my work and from everything else and I really messed this up. I want to start again. I take full responsibility for being a total a-hole when I came home. Forgive me, I owe you dinner. Let's go for dinner and let's make up and let's try this conversation again. If you can't see, I'm sorry, thank you. So forth. We're probably not going to get very far because we're all screwing up in relationships all the time right. By definition, being in a relationship is being in a shame-based place.
Speaker 3:And that's any relationship, whether it's a work relationship, a friendship, loving romantic partner, it's everything Right.
Speaker 2:As we end here, we need to stop being ashamed of shame. We need to stop being ashamed of our shame and look at it for what it is as a hindrance, as a barrier to connection.
Speaker 3:That's probably my biggest problem is I'm ashamed of being ashamed. I'm just ashamed of all that. That's what we were taught it doesn't feel good, yeah, yeah, and it makes you feel less than yeah, and I was like I had to be perfect. That's because, as a black man, as a gay man, sometimes you just feel that way. That's a good point. That's a whole different topic, that's a whole different topic.
Speaker 2:That's the great topic for next week. No, but thank you for sharing that. But I think that's true. Gay, straight, bi, whatever, black, white, shame is everywhere. Yeah, okay, we talked about racial issues last time. How love works with can I say it correctly with different colorations, racially, I think is an important issue. With different gender, sexual orientation issues, the complexity of it. Again, we live in a world where everything, where people want everything to be simpler than it can be. These things can have to be simplified. Either step up and learn how to be more complicated yes or stop telling yourself that you know this stuff. You don't, you don't and you will never understand it If you don't want to put the energy and time into understanding the complexity of it. If you were frightened of complexity, do something simple. Don't do anything related to philosophy or psychology, Because and don't get a serious relationship, Just keep it casual, keep it superficial.
Speaker 5:If that's what people prefer.
Speaker 1:Well and two like an important thing that I definitely had to learn how to do with whether it's romantic relationship or friendship or anything like that is to learn when to cut it off and say it's not worth it, because you it's very easy to get kind of feeling trapped or you know, and being unhappy and but you still feel committed somehow to that person or obligated to that person and it can be hard to know no one to end, right, yeah. Silicon Valley, the motto that I think is still relevant is fail fast.
Speaker 2:I think that's just true for relationships as well, if you're getting that stinky, dismal-y thing going on, and that is one thing that you do learn pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:Is the signs of things in somebody that you don't like or that don't vibe with you, and so you know when to kind of maybe distance yourself a little bit more quickly.
Speaker 4:Also, I feel like a part of that sometimes is, as you're getting to know someone or showing interest in them, you tend to, in a way, shame yourself about certain things and hide them from others In those conversations, or like as you're like discussing your interest, or like you tend to move away from those, and so a part of you is keeping certain things hidden in that like relationship or as you're trying to pursue that, as like a romantic connection or even like a friendship connection, because you want to be the ideal partner.
Speaker 4:I mean, there's just so many dynamics in American dating, like politics or what have you, but there is the one of I wanted relationships all be the perfect partner.
Speaker 5:But then, like, you're saying you're not being honest about your actual needs or boundaries, and then what Alex is saying is that you're not being honest about your actual needs or boundaries. And then what Alex is saying of, well, even though I'm feeling like I don't even want this relationship anymore, I'm going to be the ideal person, I guess, and just stick it out and it's like who's that for? Like, how does that help the person that you're with to be with them for an obligation? Is that what that person wants? That's a great set of questions and, of course, I think that's a great way to get that person to know you.
Speaker 2:And what's that person wants? That's a great set of questions, and of course, there's so much complexity around it again so that you just added another. Both of you added all of you had a bunch more complexity. Well, going to enter and say that there could actually be a podcast that we might want to consider having around the shame of being alone or lonely and how that pushes one into love relationships that are toxic.
Speaker 3:I'm ashamed constantly of my friends or like why aren't you in a relationship yet? And it's very shaming. I don't want to be, and so that's an interesting topic.
Speaker 2:So maybe the next one we'll be on.
Speaker 5:When is it better to be alone?
Speaker 2:When is it better to be alone, single and happy? Single and happy or, you know, fail fast. You know all those things. We'll use chat and come up with a good title, but I know that we're certainly capable of having great conversations around these issues. So thank you once again everybody. This has been really exciting and it was interesting to be with all of you and enjoyable, as always. Any last words from any of you? No, no same to you. Thanks, appreciate that. Happy Black History Month. Excellent Thank you everybody. Bye.