The Power Dynamics of Asking and Receiving at Work--with Kim Nicol

Ever wonder why it's so hard to ask for what you want in the workplace? The truly savvy communicator knows it's not about demanding, but about advocating for professional needs with grace, strategy, and bravery. Kim Nicol, expert life coach, joins us to unravel this complex topic. We delve into the power dynamics of asking, the importance of long-term strategic thinking, and how expectations can often be limited by our knowledge and experiences. Kim emphasizes that speaking up should not be seen as a risk, but a skill to be honed. This is not just a conversation; it's a masterclass in advocating for oneself.  

Kim Nicol is a life coach and host of The New Manager Podcast.  She coaches kind, ambitious people who are making a positive contribution in the world, and helps them live and lead more mindfully.  Check her out at www.kimnicol.com! 

This is a show where ideas come together. The guest statements expressed on The Savvy Communicator Podcast are their own and not necessarily the views of The Savvy Communicator.

Thanks for joining us! Become part of the conversation at www.savvycommunicator.com, and follow me on social media: my handle is @savvycommunicator.

Transcript

Amy: 0:01

Putting our own needs first can be difficult. The pressure can be even higher at work. Join us today as we discuss the benefits of advocating for your professional needs. Hi and welcome to the Savvy Communicator podcast. This is a place where we discuss all things communication, but, most importantly, how to talk when you're not sure what to say. My expert guest today is Kim Nicol. She is a life coach and a host of the new Manager podcast. Kim, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Kim: 0:31

I'm so glad to be here.

Amy: 0:33

So really glad to have you. I am so interested in your perspective on business and especially women in business. I just want to jump in. Was there a particular time in your career where you felt that you really wanted to be a coach?

Kim: 0:48

I think I was doing a lot of teaching and coaching even before I knew that that was a thing that people did. Even back when I was in school, I was volunteering at this group to teach kids in high school about the legal system. When I finished and I was out working, I ended up choosing this other side job where I was teaching movement and fitness classes and then I was teaching meditation classes.

Kim: 1:16

So for me, there's always been this strong drive to share what I know and to help others. And then, when I learned about learning and development, and coaching and life coaching and all of the different ways that you can help adults to learn and grow in their life and at work. I thought, oh, I want to do that. I didn't realize that was an option. That's a thing I want to know about that. Let's do that.

Amy: 1:44

Yeah, oh, that's fantastic. I know I had a similar experience where it's just, you know, you feel that you're in a certain bracket and then it's like, no, i could be more individualized. I can really talk about this thing. I can talk about why it's scary to communicate with a patient or something like that. I want to do that all the time. Yeah, and that's how I got into my coaching area too. That's really great. Why do you think people need coaching to ask for what they want?

Kim: 2:12

No, I think that's such a great question. Number one I didn't even know that you could have a coach to help you do this until, I mean, I was probably well into my 30s. I just like I didn't know about coaching. I think now coaching is so much more prevalent and it's more available and accessible to people, So I think it's a bigger part of the conversation. Yes.

Kim: 2:36

Yes For learning how to ask for things. I think of it especially in terms of advocacy, how to advocate for yourself, how to speak up for yourself. And before you can do that, first you have to know what you want, and a lot of times we don't have clarity or we don't really pause to think about what do I want. With the folks that I often work with, the mindset is I will make do with what I have, and that is a very resilient and very resourceful mindset. But when you're thinking only of I will make do with what I have, then we're not thinking about what else is available. Is there a resource I can ask for?

Kim: 3:19

And so coaching is so much about that mindset work of learning. How are you seeing the world, how are you thinking about things? And that's really hard for us to do on our own because it's like we don't see our own blind spots. So I think it's really cool that coaching now is so much more available and more people know about it. And then around communication and speaking up for yourself and asking for what you want. It can be scary if you have always felt like I can't ask for what I want. I need to make do with what I have.

Kim: 3:55

I'm a worried that if I ask for something that will reflect badly on me, i know that's an internal story a lot of the folks I work with in Coach Face, and so it really becomes valuable to say okay, i am going to choose some dedicated time for learning and development. And then to know you can have a coach to help you with that to learn how to communicate and feel more confident, to get more clarity about what you want and feel okay wanting things. To feel like it doesn't make you less, because you want something more.

Amy: 4:31

Mm-hmm. Well, i'm really resonating with everything you have to say, because you're absolutely right. So much of communication is just we think, well, i have to say this, so I'll just plunge in and say it. And it's very scary because a lot of times it doesn't work and that's frightening on its own And we're like, well, i'm not going to do that again, i'm certainly not going to ask for what I need when it went so badly. And sometimes, if it goes well, we're not sure how we did it, and then we're afraid to do it again, because then it might not work.

Amy: 5:07

Yeah, i work with a lot of doctors on communication, because that's something else. That's a field where, until recently, they weren't paying attention to communication at all. It was like, well, i need to tell the patient this, so I'll tell it. And it was damaging to patients and to the doctors because they didn't know what they were doing either, And so they had those terrible experiences too. And now it's becoming much more okay to practice, to say I would like to tell you this. May I sit down? How would you like me to address you? This is what I'd like to talk about, whereas before it was not, and thankfully we're starting to see that improvement. So it's just interesting. I'm just seeing a lot of parallels.

Kim: 5:55

I love everything you're saying because I think like I work with folks in a lot of different industries.

Kim: 6:01

And one of the things I see consistently is that when we improve and develop how we communicate, when we see communication not as about our personality, but more like a skill that we can continue to develop and get better at, it has so many positive effects in the workplace. When communication is not skillful And again, it's not about someone being a bad person, it's just this idea that you might be really smart, you might be really good at the thing you do, but if you don't have the communication skills to work effectively with other humans, then, everything gets harder.

Amy: 6:43

Yes, yes, and I think that having the realization that everybody that you know really one of the frustrating things about communication is that it's different every time. You know it's not like basketball, where you can perfect a layup or a free throw Every single time. It's different because every single person is different, and so learning how to kind of roll with the punches and be true to yourself This is how I do it, this is how I'm going to ask for this, but understanding that it might be different for one person versus next It's so individual, i think is just. You know, i find it fascinating. I'm glad you do too, because we just get out together over it. It's really great. Yeah, yeah, no-transcript. Are our expectations just too low in general, especially as women?

Kim: 7:37

in the workplace. I think that is such a good question And the way I think about it is our expectations are, I feel like, not so much low to high, but our expectations are always informed by certain things. Our expectations are informed by our past, by the examples of other people that we've seen. Our expectations are informed by what other people have told us about what's possible or available and we might have decided to believe them. So our expectations, I think the thing we forget is that there are always more alternatives available than we realize. And.

Kim: 8:23

I sort of think of it, like you know. So if you look across the horizon, you have a horizon line and we're often looking forward and we don't realize that there's actually more around us than we can ever ever see. So as you take a step forward, what comes into your peripheral vision begins to change and your horizon line begins to change.

Kim: 8:48

So I think sometimes it's like we stand and we look around and we say this is what's available. So I'll base my expectations on what I can currently see and what I know, And we forget that as we engage with the world and as we start to question some of those assumptions, our expectations can change. I think sometimes we're just a bit rigid with them And we forget that there's actually more.

Amy: 9:17

Yeah, I completely understand where you're coming from. On that, I know I myself have been very rigid in expectations and it took, you know, because it would be like you know, you'd ask for this, they'd say no, they'd give whatever reason. You'd be like, well, I guess that's how it is forever And I wouldn't ask for it again. And I remember, finally, I was bound to, determined to go to this conference and I really wanted to go. And so I set a goal that I would try to go two years from that day.

Amy: 9:50

And I asked seven times. You know, once every three or four months, I said I really like to go to this conference. No, no, no, no, no. And I decided I'm going to keep asking until I move to a different job or until I get to go, And I'm not telling the story to be like hey, look at me, I really did an amazing thing, But just you know it. Suddenly I was able to have more perspective and able to do exactly what you're saying think about things around me. So I think that's a beautiful image, Yeah.

Kim: 10:22

Well, and I love your story because that also is making me think of a couple of things. One is that we often think we have to ask, we get one shot to ask and if it's a no, then that's over. And so that puts on so much pressure, that feeling of I have to ask in the right way in order to get the answer that I want. And then if someone says no, it feels so bad And, just like you said, it's like, well, i'll never do that again.

Kim: 10:46

And for so many of us. Our experience of asking for things happened initially when we were tiny humans asking big humans for things. So I think we kind of carry along this power dynamic feeling where the moment we feel like we're going to ask for something, we feel like a worried little kid. I hope you say yes, yeah, and it's like we completely lose sight of who we are, that we are competent adults, and that early emotional feeling gets activated and it can really interfere with how we make that ask. And your story reminded me I had a client And so on my podcast I talk a lot about self-advocacy at work, yes, and specifically how to ask for professional development resources, whether that's just like you were saying, i want to go to a conference or I want to do a program to learn more, to make myself better at work. And I had a client who had wanted to work with me and had wanted her company to pay for her to work with me on leadership and becoming a better manager in all of this.

Kim: 12:01

And so what she did was she started to do some research. She's like OK, what is our current professional development budget? She realized that it was not enough to cover the fee to work with me.

Kim: 12:11

But she started to advocate for herself, talking to her manager, making the conversation of OK, here's my plan for professional development, Here's what I want to work on, Here's how it connects to my current and future job responsibilities. So she's helping her manager to understand the value of her ask even before she makes that ask. And she started to also then find out well, are there other exceptions that we've made in the past for other kinds of learning and development things? Because sometimes resources are flexible.

Kim: 12:49

People have discretion to approve things beyond what the policy is. So because she was thinking in this strategic, long-term way and she just knew I want this, why not ask for it? Let me think about how to do it in a way that doesn't feel scary. All or nothing.

Kim: 13:08

She had a plan And at the end she was able to make it work. So I love that, because her company now gets a more skilled, trained person. She gets the benefit of the work And it's like everyone can win. It can actually work out in this really beautiful way.

Amy: 13:28

Yes, Yes, i really agree with what you're saying. And it's funny. I've been on the flip side too, where I've been in training and whoever it is comes and says you have X amount of money for professional development. This is for people to do exactly that to buy some learning materials or go to a conference or whatever, and then and nobody comes and asks And we weren't very good at going out and saying, by the way, you can do this So I think you bridge a very important gap, because you're letting people know not only that it's there, but that it's within their grasp.

Kim: 14:11

I love hearing you say that too, because what I often tell people is there might be money allocated for learning and development, and if you're not asking for it, that's actually a problem because, it's someone's job to spend that money in a specific way And if you're not asking, that's actually a problem for them, because now they have to figure out what's going to happen.

Kim: 14:34

And it's like you might actually be helping someone do their job by raising your hand and saying, hey, there's a conference I want, there's a coach I want to work with, there's some learning materials that will help me. It's a completely different mindset versus one of the reasons I see why people don't ask is because they're afraid that it will show I'm not good enough at my job.

Amy: 14:56

If I was good enough.

Kim: 14:57

I wouldn't need that extra training. They feel like it's a sign of their deficiency rather than a sign of their ambition and their resourcefulness and being really responsible and driving their own career growth. They don't see it in that positive light, so yeah, so that's really.

Amy: 15:17

Yeah. I really appreciate that perspective because, you're right, somebody is sitting there and maybe if they don't spend it, then they get less the next year, because I've been in situations where that happens And then, instead of running around at the end of the fiscal year trying to buy pencils or whatever it is, you can spend that in a way and show that it is needed. You're right, you have that strength and confidence in yourself to be able to do that. Yeah, and I've been on both sides of that.

Kim: 15:50

So yeah, and I feel like part of what that also speaks to. You can also start with a small ask, so sometimes people think, oh, i have to wait until it's something really big to ask for. But, if you think of speaking up is a skill that you can develop, and so start practicing with things that seem small, because that will help you to gain that confidence.

Kim: 16:14

It won't feel so bad if they say no but you'll start practicing that skill of speaking up on the smaller things, so that you feel more equipped for the big things.

Amy: 16:25

I have taught a course in the past about setting boundaries, both as a patient and as a physician, and we do the exact same thing. Instead of saying you know it's a small ask, you can say it's a small boundary. You can say I'm going to leave within five minutes of this time, and you try to do it. And then you say I'm going to leave at 12 pm, and you don't try to do it, you do it. You just walk out and find out what happens. You know, sometimes there might be an emergency that pulls you back. Sometimes there isn't, and then you have gotten your goal, and that's really important. Kim, i wanted to ask you if you could give tips to our listeners on how to ask for what they want. You know, we've talked about confidence, we've talked about starting with a small ask. We've talked, you know, realizing that the resources are probably there. But if you could give a few tips to our listeners, what would you suggest?

Kim: 17:29

First, think about what it is that you want. Think about why asking might actually be helpful, not just for you because you might get it, but think about how you getting what you want actually helps other people. So, for example, there was someone who wrote to me and said that she was really, really tall and she didn't have a chair that fit her body. And she, you know, thought, oh, i just have to deal with it, i just have to deal with the chair that I have.

Kim: 18:03

And as she thought about it, she's like okay, i actually want a chair that fits my body. And then she thought, well, and actually, if I have a chair that fits my body, then I will have more energy, i will feel more comfortable, i'll be able to be more productive, it will help me do the work that I'm here to do. And then she also thought well, you know, maybe there's actually budget for this kind of thing. I don't actually know. Maybe it will help someone to feel like they're improving workplace ergonomic, something or other. So she started to be curious about how can other people benefit from me asking. And, as a side note, sometimes we have such a hard time speaking up for ourselves.

Amy: 18:44

But when we?

Kim: 18:44

think that it's going to help others. It makes it so much easier. So she thought about it in that light And then she went ahead and made the ask. She reached out to her HR partner and said hey, you know, i'm wondering, can I get a different chair? I'm really tall And, by the way, like we're all, so many of us are work from home, so nobody actually knows how, what bodies we have. We just see the faces. So her HR person didn't know And, as it turns out, they're like oh yeah, of course, no problem at all. And she got this chair. And so this idea of Know what you want, think about how it might help somebody else for you to make this ask.

Amy: 19:28

That's a really good point. We're going to take a quick break. We're talking with Kim Nicol. We'll be right back.

Kim: 19:39

The third thing is think of it as a skill, something that you can get better at, so it's not like so much risk, so much at stake. It's a thing you're going to learn how to do Yes, right, and you know that. You've learned how to do things before.

Kim: 19:58

You have learned lots of other kinds of skills You are good at learning hoping to remind yourself of that, and I guess the last thing too, is to think of it not like being a little kid asking for something from your parents, which often I think is kind of our default background image whenever we're asking something of someone who seems like they have greater authority or power but, instead think of it as coming in as a thought partner, and that is more like we're coming in at the same level.

Kim: 20:31

I'm making an ask because I'm taking responsibility for my work and for my life, and I'm going to make your job easier because, I'm going to speak up and ask for this thing And that, i think, brings us out of that initial feeling of oh, i hope this authority figure says yes to me. And it actually kind of helps us level up in our mind and feel a little bit more like that full empowered, capable adult that you are.

Amy: 21:03

You have a coaching business that's really dedicated just to this. Would you mind telling us a little bit about it?

Kim: 21:08

Oh, happy to. So I'm a life coach and I work with a lot of new managers, and so what that usually looks like is someone is promoted or they move into a new job and they have a new team, and then there's all of the fear, all the uncertainty, all of the self judgment, all of the self doubt flares up Anytime we're growing, anytime we're doing something we've never done before, and when we start moving into higher levels of leadership, what happens, too, is you have more people looking to you. You've got your team plus the folks above you, so there can feel like there's more pressure, more visibility, at the same exact time that you're doing a job that maybe you've never done before, because, for example, being a really great salesperson is a really different job than managing a team of salespeople. Yes, right.

Kim: 22:04

And so I do a lot of coaching and supportive folks when they're at that initial stage of leadership in their careers. And it often also includes so much of what's happening in your life. Because, when we're not happy at work. Everyone else in our life will hear about it.

Amy: 22:22

Yes.

Kim: 22:25

And, conversely, for having a really hard time in our private life. That definitely shows up in how we're able to be at work. So I really want humans to feel supported and have the resources they need to really excel and feel satisfied in their work, so they can also feel really great in the rest of their lives too.

Amy: 22:45

Wow, that's so necessary And I just love how you're focusing on it. Not just to achieve this goal because it can be achieved, because some people might stop there, be like I'll teach you how to achieve this goal. You achieved it, thank you very much, but you're going on and saying this has to do with your life, this has to do with your quality of life, because you want to be happy in both places. I had a wonderful conversation with another guest a few weeks ago And what she said about communication was that when we think it's just about talking and we think it's just about to get things that we want to need, but when we don't get them, we also communicate. And it might be that we communicate through doing some things that we wouldn't normally do. Sometimes it's by not doing things that we would normally do, and sometimes it's verbal and sometimes it's body language, but we do communicate either way when things are going well and when they're not going well.

Kim: 23:53

That is so true.

Amy: 23:55

And just so you taking it that extra step to make sure that they're going to be communicating that good energy and those positive outcomes. I think is really neat.

Kim: 24:11

Yeah, this is what's so great, is that okay? So communication skills you use in every area of your life. And so what's really cool is that whatever you learn, that will help you at work, it will help you elsewhere. If you're learning how to ask for a chair at work, then that will also help you to ask the person you live with for something you need that could make the relationship better, for example, right.

Amy: 24:40

Like. This is the beauty of it.

Kim: 24:41

And like learning sometimes with folks and they think, oh, I can't ask at work because that's too high a risk And I've got to really get it just right And it's like great, Then we're going to start by asking someone in your personal life. We're going to start learning how to ask for things there. We're going to start learning that skill of self-advocacy outside the workplace, so you start to feel more confident about it.

Kim: 25:04

And we're going to look at other things in that outside part of your life that you're not asking for, that you want, that you feel like you can't ask for, And as you learn that it then crosses over. So it's one of the most elegant things to learn because you will use it everywhere. And just like you said, it's not and maybe, just like your other guest said, it's not just about how you talk about things. I see it really as this way of creating trust and enriching relationships and creating a greater sense of ease and relief and safety in your life.

Kim: 25:39

And that includes your work life and your non-professional life.

Amy: 25:44

Yes, because we go into work and oftentimes we look at it as somewhat separate from ourselves, i think, and that's partially for safety, because we don't want to be too vulnerable in a place, especially if we're not familiar with it yet. They say that the happiest people are ones that can combine that and that enjoy what they do, whether it's work or whether it's a hobby, something like that that they have that same feeling instead of, okay, i'm going to gird myself up, i'm going to go into work, i'm going to be this separate person for hopefully just eight hours, if not 10 or 12. And then, okay, now I can rest and garden or whatever it is I like to do, and that's my true self. But people that can flow from one to the other, and it sounds like you're really helping them and supporting them in doing that, and that's so important.

Kim: 26:45

Yeah, it's all about knowing that you have a choice, so that you're I want to say, just like you're connected to your own sense of agency and the feeling that you get to decide how you want to show up and choose what works for you, rather than feeling like there are no options. That's the thing I think is great, when you start developing these communication skills in this way and thinking about it a little bit differently, is realizing oh, i actually have a lot more options.

Amy: 27:17

So it sounds like people get a lot more than they bargained for, necessarily when they come to work with you.

Kim: 27:23

Yeah, I mean, I'm also a mindfulness teacher, so that's really the foundation of everything I do. And realizing that when you're developing communication skills and learning how to advocate for yourself and speak up, it can feel really scary, especially if you're used to being really good at things all the time Like a really perfectionist, high achiever that can be some of the hardest inner critics.

Kim: 27:52

And so, remembering that this is a process, having a lot of grace and compassion for yourself as you're developing these skills, realizing one of the big inner critic voices is I should have been able to figure this out already At my age. Why is this hard? And just remembering hey, it's all good, like your communication skills have got you here. That's amazing. And now we can add some new skills and we can also set down the burden of the things that haven't been working. It's okay.

Amy: 28:26

So do a lot of people come in feeling kind of scared.

Kim: 28:30

I think they come in. Yeah, I think feeling, you know, scared, but also just feeling tired. I think one of the things we don't realize is that not feeling like we can communicate effectively or not feeling like we can ask for things, it becomes exhausting. All of the ways that we then compensate for that becomes really exhausting. And so I think when I see a lot of people are drawn to me, in part because I have this really calming approach, calming energy, I can definitely feel that.

Amy: 29:11

I can definitely feel that.

Kim: 29:13

Not a boot camp type coach That tends not to be how I work But there's just this great sense of relief of, oh, i don't have to keep beating up on myself for this. It's like no we don't. We can actually learn from a place of great compassion and kindness, and that will make the learning easier and sustainable and more fun And you know like, let's do it that way.

Amy: 29:38

That sounds like a wonderful way to do it. That sounds wonderful. Yeah, unfortunately, this is where we have to stop the interview for today. Kim, i can't thank you enough for being here.

Kim: 29:51

It has been such a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Amy: 29:55

And thank you, audience, for being with us today. If you have enjoyed the show, join the conversation yourself. Go to wwwsavvycommunicatorcom. And if you're interested in finding out more about Kim Nicholl and her work, Kim, where can we reach you?

Kim: 30:10

Go to my podcast the new manager podcast. And you can also go to my website kimnichollcom.

Amy: 30:18

That's K-I-M-N-I-C-O-Lcom. Thanks for joining us today at the Savvy Communicator. We'll see you next time.