Paolo Dias, from the South African Podcasters Guild

The South African Podcast Guild is a vibrant community of over 300 independent podcasters in South Africa. Founded by Paolo Diaz, the Guild aims to help local podcasters gain exposure and grow their shows through partnerships, collaboration, and shared resources. With a focus on accessibility and inclusivity, the Guild offers both free and low-cost membership tiers, making it open to creators of all backgrounds.

Beyond just providing a supportive network, the Guild is also working to address key challenges facing the South African podcasting landscape. This includes exploring ways to monetize shows, tapping into local language and niche content opportunities, and leveraging partnerships with larger media companies. With rapid growth in its first year, the South African Podcast Guild is positioning itself as a driving force for the continued development of the local podcasting industry.

We're sponsored by Buzzsprout. Start Podcasting. Keep Podcasting.

Transcript

0:12

Hello and a welcome back to Pop Newsweekly. I'm joined today by Paolo Diaz and Paolo is the co-founder and head of development for the South African Podcast Guild. Paolo, hello, how are you? Yeah, very good, thanks. And it's a it's amazing to be on a platform like yours. So thank you so much for the invite. Oh, no pleasure. Thank you for taking the time. Now, what is the South African Podcast Guild? Let's start off without. So it's probably an idea whose time had come and has got so much goodwill behind this momentum. But basically it started out as me speaking to a lot of independent podcasters, primarily because and girls who are creating podcasts by themselves and looking for a community. And I would host events in the two main cities in South Africa and everybody that was coming to them. We said we should formalize this, we should make something, we should be something. And having a lot of those conversations time and time again kind of forced us into go, okay, let's do it. And it was meant to be no bigger than a bean pizza organization, but just, I think the groundswell and momentum beyond podcasting in South Africa made it so much bigger into what it is. And I think we had laid out like a 18 month to two year road map and we've kind of like achieved that in ten months. We're celebrating our anniversary the first week of November, a one year anniversary, and we've grown from a zero base to 300 members and the biggest collective of South African podcasters in the country. And there are all sorts of shows in there, high quality shows, catering for all different audiences. And what we try to do is, is a podcast, a guild is we know the quality is good, but the exposure is not there. And if people got this exposure, the shows would grow. And I think that's what we spend a lot of time doing, making sure that we're getting our shows in front of people, whether it's through partnerships with big media owners, whether it's through collaborations with charities, whether it's just sharing with each other, giving people a network to do promo swaps and cross-promote shows and making each other aware of this shows. And that's really what we've been spending the past ten, 11 months doing. Nice. I like it. So what does it cost to join the Guild? Is it free or is there a membership? There is a paid tier, but we are free to join organisation. So we open up. We don't expect anybody to pay anything. The paid membership is really a tiny, tiny fee. I think that's 100 rand in South Africa, which is pretty £10. So it's a really, really tiny fee to join. And we did that because we just want to make it accessible as much as we have podcasters from like all realms and all walks of life, we don't want to close it or ring fence it to anybody. So at the moment it is free. You know, anybody paying the guys, paying or paying kind of just help keep us running. But yeah, we wanted to make it as broadly accessible to anyone as possible. And do you get industry support? Do people from the bigger companies sponsor this? We're looking at that and formalising that. And we have had approaches from big players in the industry and we are working with them to figure out what that means because it's a great way to grow it en masse. And so far what they have been doing is paying us in kind. You know, they've got big audiences, they've got big platforms, they've got big social media followings, and a lot of them have come to the party to offer. So we are currently in a programme with a local company called EOL. That's the other today that run a number of newspapers and the subsequent digital publications who've just absorbed a bunch of our shows into their publications are promoting us to their readers and followers, which is again putting it in front of people. Was speaking to a couple of radio station groups to say, Okay, what can you give us? Can you adopt a podcast? Can you give us resources? So even without the cash changing hands just yet, we are speaking to bigger players to go, okay, well you know, this works for everyone because, you know, for big media businesses, they get podcasting and they understand the audience wants it, but it is kind of costly to produce. Then it's a little bit of a that takes focus on the away from their core, where suddenly you're able to access 2 to 300 very fresh shows that are being produced every week at a high quality. It's appealing for both sides to suddenly be able to make an offering without really that massive start up capital that you do need to go full on into podcasting. So given that you said you're ahead of your plan, what is the plan now you're approaching your first year. What next? Yeah, what next? I think where we are right now is that we're very aware that the volunteer run part of it is not sustainable. We're getting a lot of members are asking, a lot of us not in a demanding way, but I mean, obviously they see us as a resource and they see what we're able to do as a resource. And with that friction point that if we're not able to kind of like keep, you know, up to what we've promised people we will do, we're going to just fade into the background. So we are in that phase of going, okay, we do need a little bit more support. We do probably need full time staff and we are looking at ways to do that. But in terms of like growing, it's like just this constant validity that we're after. I think if we can get our members into being paid by some of the platforms we're with, not just like a trade exchange, you know, exposures will find and well, but it doesn't, you know, pay the bills. So it's about going, okay, cool, we're showing you the validity of it. Now take some of these people on, monetise them by all means, sell their product, but also pay their money. So I think that's where we want to go next. But then there's also the charity side and I think that makes people very interested. It gets good PR miles, but also does good and it gives back and I think a lot of our members are in that space to contribute and use their shows for good, which is quite nice to see because I think South African podcasting and most podcasting was built off the back of controversy and rightly so, controversial hosts because they were challenging mainstream. But definitely the new phase of podcasting were in in terms of creators is all about giving back and doing things for their audience and really understanding that. And so you definitely any charity initiatives we do take to our members really catches fire. And I think that's really something to grow on going forward. Now, how did Paulo get into podcasting? Like all of us, by accident, right? We were putting things on the Internet and audio on the Internet, and I think a lot of us in podcasting at some point are frustrated. Radio presenters and I worked in a radio station and we were doing like lost skits and gags and mock up features and things like that and parodies. And, you know, station managers were chasing us at the office, Stop sending me this stuff. And then I think in those days, we're figuring out how to put music on the Internet. We started streaming radio stations going, okay, well, if we can puts music on there, we can put other stuff as an MP, three rights, and that's what we're doing. And then this podcasting thing came about. We were like, okay, cool. That's what we were doing. We didn't know what to call it. And yeah, then we just kind of rolled that out in the first days of podcasting for radio stations, which was taking your herd on air features and you know, your best features are making it available to download somehow and then just growing it from there, just realising the potential of people want to listen. They are always looking for audio content. Radio is not limited, but radio can only give you so much long form content and it just served as a good launching pad. And then I think, you know, COVID was the great equalizer in podcasting. Everything just blew up after that. And just watching the industry grow. But that's how I got in just by accident and hacking websites and figuring out how to put stuff online. So is the Guild your full time role order to do other things? So my full time role is I work for a company called Ultimate Media and I am head of innovation there, of which doing podcasts for brands is part of what I do. But in general, what we are is we're kind of like an independent consultancy that works on behalf of clients and how best to get return on investment for the ad campaigns. So whether it be from generic advertising or radio promotions or presenter endorsements, we work on behalf of the clients and then work through all the radio stations. So make it really easy for them to navigate that space instead of dealing with multiple sales houses, and then also making sure there's consistency and making sure their message comes first and foremost. But in an integrated way. You know, I think we all are very strong programming people. We understand what makes good programming and then we just try to tie the two together. And then, of course, as we get into streaming and podcasting and etc., it's just the next natural evolution. We've been talking to various guests about different emerging markets. We've been talking to Acast. He did a great report on both what we'd call the mainstream markets and the emerging markets and the differences with South Africa. Where do you see the next couple of years? Really? What is the plan? Is it going to be we're going to follow the American model and we're going to try and get, you know, big brand names and exclusives. And that's the way to go? Or is it? We're going to follow the Middle Eastern market where we're seeing some really good companies getting high levels of investment or the India market, which has gone to number three now in the world in terms of consumption, because suddenly people are beginning to find podcasting and it's such a big country that it's going to probably go to number two very quickly soon. Where do you sort of feel is it? And then the last question is, is it also all English language? Because obviously South Africa's got a rich history of multi-language as well? Yeah, I think the answer about where we go next is probably a little bit in between all of those. And I always lean back on my radio experience and going like we looked at what was working in markets similar to ours and then created our own version of that. I think, you know, you and I met in London, hit the podcast show in London, and there was definitely a theme there of podcasting coming out of a bit of a dip, a bit of a bad space, and you really develop markets and my eyes were totally open to it of going like, Wow, we are copying that and we're walking into the same trap. And I think it was amazing to go because then you go, Okay, we're not too far down the road to kind of course, correct? So I think we'll be remiss to copy any bigger markets because the numbers there kind of make it just a bit too big to fail, if you know what I mean. It's not that it's guaranteed, but you just dealing with a lot of wiggle room, which I don't think we have. Yeah, we'll have to be cognisant in South Africa that radio is extremely, extremely vibrant in this country and a lot of the reasons people have navigated to podcasts and other markets is because radio wasn't serving that role. And I think radio he had does that not? I think it does do that. So kind of the content you'd gravitate towards in the podcasting space, radio does so well. And then you have the video issue, which kind of seems to be in any emerging market. The video part does just take over. There is just a gravitation towards video, especially in younger markets of which South Africa and and Africa is in terms of the age profile of people consuming. They go to video first and then grow into audio. So I think it's a matter of us looking across the board and going, okay, what has worked and most importantly, what hasn't worked? I'm not overly confident on the advertiser funded model. I don't see if that's a long term solution. By and large, I think there are going to be pockets of success. But I think if we go that way and hey, Mr. Brand, please fund me, I think we're going to come short very quickly because they've got a lot of other stuff to fund that gets in results. And when you're in an economy like ours, you need to show your return quickly. And podcasts don't always do that. I think with the vibrancy that we've seen out of the Podcasting Guild, we're definitely understanding that listeners and other creators are probably a source to help fund each other. So is there ways of how you can give back to podcasting, just getting back to you, etc., etc.? So I think there's something in that and I really think the next breakthrough for us is going to be local language. Like you said, we're sitting with 11 languages in South Africa, stole most podcast content no matter what audience it's made for is still done in English. Even if I just look at like really popular categories, like sports, for example, there are almost no Isizulu sports or football podcast, which is or no massive ones, which is quite strange. And you speak to people and there are various reasons for it, but it's kind of like that's going to be our breakthrough, right? That's kind of going to be once we get out of this and the legacy this, that Africa has got a great history like, I mean, most most of the world have of radio dramas and radio serials and people still talk about them. And the state broadcaster has just launched their new streaming app and a big portion of it is all the old radio dramas that they used to do. So those narratives, and I think we can really tap into that and do that really well. So that's the great future for me of going, We need to get into the local languages, we need to explore them. You know, a lot of times people go, Oh, you make a podcast, the old cliche, you make a podcast about knitting underwater and you make a podcast for guys who do that, you know, just make a podcast about like financial development here in Isizulu. Like it's that's your niche, right? Because not being done. So I think that's going to be the big moment. And there's like technical limitations people are afraid of like, well, does algorithms pick up our language? Can we use AI to help us with this and that? And does it limits our guest pool because everyone can speak in English and confidently or relatively confidently. But I think it's about being brave and just going that next step and going local language. That's where we're going to go. And, you know, maybe people don't want to do local because they want to compete with International English podcast, but it's like I think the pay off is somewhere closer to local than it is in English. Yeah. So this also loops back very well into what you were talking about, brand advertising and not really having that. So if you go hyperlocal, then you go local language as well. What would you think then be the alternative to brand advertising? Because actually somebody who's doing a local language South African podcast maybe about football, right, is probably going to have a very small audience. I'm not talking small. I think it might be a thousand people, might be 100 people, but it's never going to be 10,000 people. So they're never going to attract that top End brand advertise. So what do you think would be the model for monetisation then? For something like. That? I was talking to somebody about this the other day and I said, you know, ultimately the numbers people don't understand the numbers, right? I mean, a hundred listeners worth versus 10,000, like people don't really know except for us what's good. And with it'sit's. So what you got to do, especially when you're talking to a brand, you've got to show them quantifiable and things that they do understand. So it's like when you're putting together a package for brand and also podcasts, take quite a while to understand how well you've done or if you've done well to really get a picture of it. So incrementally, you've got to, like I always say, talk to two people, right? There's always the person who has backed you from a brand and bought into you and will buy you the time, but they've got a boss and I think you've got to create assets that their boss can understand that when they go on a monday morning and they go, How are we doing? You go, Well, we've got X amounts of views on our tick tock, real or tick talking, but X amounts of views on our real. And we did this live recording in front of 200 people and okay, so we see 200 people. So I think when you're doing something packaged up to quantify so people can see in a room and then go, okay, cool, we'll wait for the board reports at the end of the month and I think that's what you do it. So while you're building organically with the person in the brand who gets you, also remember they've got a boss to answer and try to give them tools that they can show, okay, this thing is working. There is success here. And is this what you do with the Guild? You help young podcasters learn those type of skills, the business skills of podcasting rather than the audience? Yeah, it's a bit of both. We've got people coming in from all means. So I mean, there is a lot of help that we give people from a technical point of view. Mike Technique, content planning. And I think it's one thing that was specifically seeing in so many people moving to video is that they're spending a lot of time and money and effort on their video, but their content doesn't follow. A structure is going to keep a person engaged, especially when you start playing a YouTube game. That's a whole different level of understanding that you need to do. So it's kind of like, well, go back to basics, get your content right and you'll start to see the success and everything else. But by the same means, you get people who do have the content right, do build up a bit of an audience to go, okay, well now I've got to make money out of this. You know, my partners give me a hard time because my hobby is is costing. And so we do help them go, okay, look at this. Look at this point of view. People often ask for rates, cards, how much must I charge? And we advise and give pointers on that. People share rate causes share sales proposals. They share success stories. They tell people what not to do. It's helping to sit and explain to people what you measurements, what your metrics are. So we offer across the board advice on people even down. I mean, there was a conversation about album artwork the other day and how do you create good album artwork? So it's really any resource. And I think what's great about it is those of us who've been in podcasting in a while in South Africa, we built our own networks through each other and some days to luck we'll look at a new member and they post a question and the level of knowledge of the people that come back to them to have that conversation with them. You just sit. They go, Wow, that is that's university for free of the people giving you advice. And I think that's been the greatest thing of just how open everybody has been to share their knowledge. Yeah, that's cool. That's very cool. Now, Spotify, like outside of the USA, seems to be the dominant player. Now. We've talked to numerous countries and in America, it's clearly Apple's got the lion's share still. But outside of the US, generally where people don't have iPhones, it tends to be Spotify. What's the general landscape between YouTube, Spotify, Apple, Amazon In South Africa? It reflects the same. Amazon is kind of a nonentity. You know, we do have the Amazon streaming channel, but in terms of podcast, very few people actually on their own, nor do they report their listeners as anything. Spotify has got a massive imprint in South Africa, but not as big as YouTube. So I think in terms of consumption, people are consuming podcasts on Spotify, but they're then defaulting to the video podcasts onto YouTube. I'd like to see that change. I think the reason for not changing is that Spotify in South Africa is not monetized yet as a podcaster, so you will not earn money out of it. I don't know if that's being changed. I know Spotify doing really great things for the bigger creators and we engage with them as well about going well. You know, it's shared for the more independent guys as well. But you're looking at your big players being Spotify and then YouTube. Apple comes a little bit further down the line. Just because iPhone penetration in South Africa isn't broad like most developing markets, Android is bigger. So kind of like any Android native app, even though I know Apple has changed. But that will take a while to reflect. But you're looking at YouTube and Spotify in terms of creators. They're just easier to do as well. I think, you know, Spotify too, on board, it's really quick and easy, as is YouTube Apple. There's a few steps that you go through. Then in terms of local players, we do have a local a platform called Ayano Dot FM Cypher and based company. They are a partner of the Guild Local Support, which is great. You know, if you have an issue with something, you don't just get put into a nameless ticketing system. A human being gets in touch with you to help you, which is great. They're not on video yet. They're still audio based, but those are kind of the entities in South Africa. So that's kind of our landscape. I'd say YouTube and Spotify will go between the two, but I think YouTube's far bigger and then you have Fiona Apple and then a couple of, you know, smaller players, pocket costs, etc.. Yeah, I think that's generally reflected around the world, those being the big players and then local players and then then a long stream of others now cost must be a prohibitive in South Africa for a lot of young. You talked about it being a very young continent, not just South Africa, but the whole of the African nation. And is there a way for young voices to come to studios and to get involved with podcasting, even if they can't afford a mic and they can't afford a producer and they can't afford a video camera. We're seeing, you know, it's it's it's an amazing thing. Young kids in this country, the hustler mindset and in the most positive way. Right. It's I think the context of calling someone a hustler locally is like a it's a badge of honor, actually, how these kids, they got a message and they will figure out how to get it to you. So, so many of them, I see the high quality video coming out of them and you're like, where you record? Oh, that's my friend's house. You're like, Wow, okay, you got something. So they're figuring out how to get stuff out there. You're not seeing like what OP anticipated, kind of like, you know, really cell phone top videos and things like that. People are in studios with good cameras and good editing, so they're all figuring it out. But there's also like a lot of initiative. So arts in the Joburg, kind of like artistic district, there's a studio called MPT Studios, which is backed by one of the big cell phone companies, and they're actually giving studio time for free to people. You just basically have to sign up, become a member, no payment. And whether you want to shoot video or audio or whatever, it's co-working spaces plus free studio time. I don't know if they edit fully. I think they give you the final product, but to do that, that's that's just amazing. It's it's just really, really good stuff. And a lot of people support each other. They help each other. Somebody who's got a camera, somebody knows a friend of the mic, somebody's got a studio space and they just work it out. So yeah, it is inhibitor and I mean by no means that anybody can just jump in, but the guys who want to figure it out will figure it out. And the help is usually never far away for people. So you know, help is always on the hand with really good quality people. If I wanted to join the guild, where would I go? So SPG .00 and just sign up, You know, we just ask for your show. Your show doesn't even have to be running all the time. It can be of interest. You may be just joining us to figure out if you want to start a show, and that's also fun and your choice. If we add Utah what's up communities which are quite thriving and you'll get newsletters, you get access to all social media, you'll get access to us and our events and our awards. So it's just as simple as, say, PG dot zero. Today we we focus mostly on South Africans. I think that was one of the conversations. The guys from African Podcast and VOICEOVER Association, they were fantastic in helping us getting started and we learnt a lot of lessons from them. But then we made the decision to, you know what for the first year at least focus hard on South Africa because they do such good work for the rest of Africa. So we're like, let us get our ourselves right. So we do focus on South Africa because I think we've got a specific set of challenges and a specific set of also wins that we can all go through together. So we do focus, but it's a PG dot zero today. Paolo, thank you so much. Very much that.