#94 - Chatty

Today host Rosie is joined by (alive) husband Jon after a couple of weeks off, and in the episode we tell you why…

We talk about mental health, both in relation to grief and also in terms of past trauma, misdiagnosis and the other scary sounding things you may uncover through therapy. 😬

The term ‘Ambiguous Grief’ puts a name to the feeling of uncertainty and confusion around a death- something so many of us will relate to, and resonates particularly hard with Rosie who’s husband, Ben, was lost at sea.

We hope to offer both reassurance that you’re not alone and to remind bit our listeners, and ourselves we are all learning on the job and not one single one of us is perfect. Be it parenting, widowing, or just trying to bumble through life unscathed, We gotcha.

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Transcript

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:02

Hello and a very warm welcome back to Widowed AF. You're here for your chatty episode and I'm really pleased to tell you that John's back in the hot seat. So welcome back. Hi everybody. Hi Rose. It's, it was, um, yeah, it was funny doing it on my own actually. So it's nice, nice to have somebody to look at while I'm talking into a microphone. So, um, We also wanted to just, um, kind of explain, we didn't put out any episodes this week, and the reason for that is Life kind of just got in the way, and I think sometimes when you are putting so much pressure on yourself to hit a deadline It actually becomes a, burden is the wrong word because I don't like that word But it was becoming a demand. And so I had a bit of a wobble this week. It's been coming. I knew, I knew it was coming. So, um, I just couldn't, basically, is the long and short of it. And I kind of figured that you guys would understand. And actually, if we approach this a little bit more kind of relaxed, rather than this regimented, we must get two episodes out a week. Yeah. Because I'm fairly certain there hasn't been a Lemming esque Explosion of widows launching themselves off cliffs because they haven't listened to me for this week. So I think perhaps, you know, understanding the universe does not actually revolve around me. But anyway, I'm, I'm being a little bit, um, self deprecating here. It's been a bit of a, uh, I don't know. I don't know. I feel like I'm always coming on here and going, yeah, a bit of a tough week this week. But I think that is life for all of us. Whatever your circumstances is, life is. It's beautiful, but tough.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 1:44

And, you know, this is grief. We can't hide from it. We are both widows and we're still grieving. It

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:49

is, and I think it's actually quite important that we do talk about it because I can remember joining Way when Ben died. And there was somebody, I won't name names obviously, but there was somebody, she was seven years widowed. I'm very, very much in that early grief. I'm just going to move my mic so I can see you better. All the better to see you with. And I can remember thinking to myself, God, is that what my future looks like? Is that, you know, am I going to be this kind of tragic, sad

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 2:14

I remember the same, actually,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:15

yeah. And here I am, staring down the barrel of six years, and, yeah, I am still a bit of a mess, if I'm honest. I know for me personally, a lot of that is to do with suppressed grief, because, uh, motherhood, alcoholism, life again, got in the way a bit. And so, I'm having to go back in and poke around, but I also know I'm not the only one. And that many of us are doing the same thing, and we're also finding out stuff that widowhood. Yes. So, I'm going That must definitely happen. Well, I'm going to come to you. It's, um, and part of the Pro the journey of God, I'm gonna sound like such a wanker, but part of this kind of journey of self discovery that you go on Has resulted, as many of you will know, in me having a diagnosis of ADHD and autism, high function autism. I don't present typically, um, ADHD perhaps, yes, but it means that I've had to rethink how my brain works and how I operate because my The kind of standard operating procedure is full pelt until I crash. But actually, I'm, that is not a sustainable way to live. And I burnt myself, burnt that candle pretty hard for a couple of weeks and then I crashed on Monday. Nothing really bad happened. I did, I did throw some high vis jackets at the headteacher of one of the schools, but I have apologised by previously. God, it's making me cringe now. But let's be

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 3:49

honest. Everybody wants to have done that at some point. If Mr. Rye, if you're listening. Not you, Mr. Rye. Um, you know, there's a certain element of sometimes you just want to

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:59

go, come on. Sometimes you've got to throw a hide this jacket at someone. So I, I, I then had this kind of horrible sense of shame. And sorry, I realise I'm really kind of self indulgent off on a tangent straight away. But as you know, there's no, no small talk on here. But it, it gave me that horrible feeling of shame that I felt I was free of because when I gave up drinking, I felt I bid farewell to that shame. It took a while because you have to forgive yourself for the things that you did when you were drinking. But this sense of shame that I had last night, and you witnessed me just sobbing with like, and playing back images of, you know, Oh no, oh no, I'm googling primary schools because I obviously can't possibly go back to that school ever again. And this morning I've got up, I've gone back to the school, I've, you know, apologized, and of course he was completely lovely and said no hard feelings, and of course, you know, it's all water under the bridge as it were. It shocked me how those feelings of shame and self loathing are so near to the surface that it only takes a little wobble and they can come flooding back and it pushed I did a bit of reading into this concept of autistic burnout which I guess I'm aware of because I have um, we have Hector who's autistic and When you read about it, it presents like a really chronic depression. So you can have self harm, um, ideations, you can be lash out, say things you don't mean. I mean, reading through it, and I'm actually going to send it to my mum because I look back at my teenage self and I go, Oh, hi. And it's one of the reasons I am so Um, almost fanatical about diagnosis in, in, particularly in girls, because that's that I can relate to. Um, to the point where I, I, it's not that I think that necessarily everybody needs help, I didn't need support, but it's understanding how you operate means that you can give yourself compassion. I lay in bed last night and I was like, this is why I drank, this is why I drank, because it stopped those images, and those thoughts, and those ruminations, yeah. But anyway, I'm much, I'm feeling much brighter today, I've been in that bloody ice bath, walked the dog, meditated, I know, I've done all the things. Um, and I actually would like to just let Mr. Gilmoss get a word in edgeways now, because By speaking about the things that cause us to struggle, we create a sense of community, we know this, and we all feel less alone. And since John had his mental health crash, because that's what it was, uh, I have spoken to a couple of other people, one of whom I actually recorded with, and it was the lovely Jess, who was episode 5, I can't, I'm trying to get that right, and I re recorded with her, um, Um, because I'm doing another podcast, it's the working title is Rosie FM, uh, please tell me if you hate it. And I'm starting to record some episodes with people about their life. It's their life stories. They don't have to be widowed. You don't have to have done anything amazing or overcome incredible adversity. Most people have got an interesting story, but in doing this, I'm discovering how many people have what we would term as a toxic relationship with the parents or parents. The underlying cause of your breakdown was a relationship, or lack of, with your mother. Now I, it wasn't my place to talk about this because it's not my relationship and it's not my mum. But obviously I am adjacent. And I just thought it might be really valuable and I'm putting you a little on the spot. But you did say to me there was nothing I couldn't ask today. No, there's nothing, I'm ashamed of. Um, and just maybe talk a little bit about the impact that has had on you. Throughout your entire adult life and that you know it the relationship said it's threatened to jeopardize and I'll stop talking now I'll let you have a go. Um,

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 7:50

well Don't know why this had to come out when it came out and how it came out

Rosie Gill-Moss: 7:56

But I agree. It is what it is, right?

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 8:00

But it did and Airbnb for a week and Spent a day with shaking and feeling horrible. It took me a long time to come back to Why the fuck did I do that? Excuse, excuse the language, I'm going to try and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:14

swear at us as well. It's cool, we don't hate as fuck, darling, I think you're alright. Um,

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 8:17

and, um, it, it sort of came to a culmination on the, on the, I think it was the Monday morning. Um, we were arranging to meet, to, to talk, and I wasn't really in a very good place, and I decided to ring the GPs to get some help. Um, and as ever, you ring the GPs, you get put on hold, you get through, and sorry, all the appointments are gone, and I Broke down on the phone to him, and said like, what am I supposed to do then? I don't know what to do anymore. I can't sleep, I can't think, I'm shaking, I'm, I'm fucked. Like, help me. And she's like, I'm sorry, all the appointments are gone. So I just went, fuck you, and put the phone down. Um, by which point I Not just Mr. Wright that got it then? No, by which point I plugged in my heavy metal. Um, which has, uh, which has been a staple in my life growing up, is, is rock music and kind of aggressive music. Mm. Um, and, um, had a little cry in Tesco's car park. Luckily it was far enough up the car park that no one came and knocked on the window. Thank God. I do like a car cry though. Mmm. Uh, and then the phone rang, it was the GP's, they rang back. And she's like, oh I've got you an appointment. And I went, oh that's fucking amazing. I have to completely crash and scream down the phone and you suddenly find an appointment. And then she went, if I just start with the date of birth, I've out of that fucking money. Go fuck yourself. Did ya? And to put the phone down again. Cause I was furious and I was full of my anger and I was, I was, I realised that actually, I did used to look to my anger when I was younger to push through some of these hard, hard things and then I drove to a different supermarket car park because, uh, any fellas who are listening will know that if you get into this situation we just sit in car parks. That's all we do. There's nothing more interesting but sitting in car parks thinking what a dick you are. Um, and then I sat there and it was building in my mind because um, Um, Hi you guys, and I'm a Facebook friend. Um, it's nothing personal, I just don't know you. Some you might. Some maybe, and I decided to out Your toxic parent. My toxic parent, my mother, who has, um, not exclusively for the last six months, the majority of my adult life, just sends me shit. Just shit upon shit, and then this last six months, and then I've been trying to I wanted her to get better. I wanted her to walk the path. But as we all know, you can help someone down the path, but you can't make them walk the path. And I really, really wanted to, but she took everything that was outside of her narrative as a personal attack. And quite frankly, I think I'd reached my limit. I'd done two months worth of therapy to help me try and get over this particular hump. And, um, I wrote this tyrannical post onto Facebook. There was that, there was a lot of bad language in it, but then I took a video of the six months of messages that my mom had sent me and just went, do you know what? Fuck it. And pushed it online

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:18

because this is the thing, isn't it? Anything that you said, and even talking about it a bit on here, ended up with you getting a lot of lash back, uh, blow back, and you know, people being quite. You were getting a bit of shit, let's just say that. And so, by recording those messages, you basically have put out into the public arena, for want of a better term, the truth. Yeah. And it's an unedited truth. Yeah. So, what you've actually found is since you did that, nobody's come back at you, have they? Because No, if anything,

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 11:50

it's been shown a bit more support. And, you know, mum, if you're listening, or one of your many spies are listening, Um, take it how you want to take it. I'm not on the FM anymore. Um, but then the next day, then on the Tuesday, I'd actually already booked myself back into my counsellor. But I got up that morning and I was a wreck. I was like a shivering nigger. I just turned up to my counsellor and just sat there, I'm just shaking. Um, and that was probably one of the hardest sessions I've done.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:20

But you did it. You walked into that room and I'm really proud of you for doing that because God knows I have had to be escorted into counseling sometimes when I'm, because the more you need it, the less you want to go. Hmm.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 12:33

Um, and what I've been doing since and what, what I'm, I'm still, cause I actually feel quite good now. I feel in a much better headspace, but I'm going to go back to counseling because you don't sack the personal coach just because you've got the muscle. You keep going. So whilst I'm in a good place, I want to go back and discover how I can stop, cause I've been in therapy. Sarah died on and off for various reasons too. But, um, I have to figure out why I keep reacting in these certain ways to what are benign situations. Um, and I remember I signed with my counselor and I said, um, I did a meditation. Like back in December, to try and find my inner child, because the inner child's a new buzzword. And this meditation, I think it was when we were in,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:20

um, We did it together in Amsterdam, read into that what you will.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 13:24

And, uh, I, uh, I finished, I was like, I mean, I walked around my old house, I could see my old house. Could I find myself? No. I said, so, I said, how the hell am I supposed to heal my inner child if I can't find him to talk to him? Um, I said, all I've got is just, I just feel this impending sense of dread. Like something bad is coming out of me and my counsellor just went, That's your inner child. Yeah. Your emotion is, the feeling is the inner child. And

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:51

actually, I'm sorry just to jump in there but, You have led a, a challenging and turbulent life. You've had many, many good bits of life. But you did, you had a very harsh upbringing and, You then lost Sarah Young, and you, you know, you, and you did nearly die, there's no way of beating around it. Um, and I think it was like the dam burst. I think it was a tiny, it was a small argument between ourselves, which I won't go into detail on, but it was nothing, it was nothing, and, um, we aren't, we don't particularly argue, we're not sort of, you know, sycophantic to each other, you know, we do, we do exchange words, but it, It was the first sort of proper row that we've had, and I guess we didn't really know what to handle it. And I think you went into fight or flight, and I went into freeze. So you were, I guess, needed a reaction from me as well, and I just, in that situation, I freeze. So, I will come across as quite cold and unfeeling, but It's that whole swan analogy again, isn't it? What you see on the surface isn't necessarily, but there's a couple of things here. Like I'm interviewing you by accident. So this idea that when you're feeling good, you keep going and it's actually really tough to get going. I gotten the ice bath today. I said to you, I won't, I'll give you credit too. And I haven't been, I haven't been in since Thursday and it's that walk down the path and you don't want to do it cause you know, it's going to be cold and horrible, but. It's getting back into the routine and then maintaining it. And it's the same, you've used that fitness analogy, you don't stop once you're fit, do you? It's also,

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 15:34

I've got another analogy, I'm full of them today. Go on, go on, go on. Um, so in the, in the business world, there is a concept called a flywheel. So if you want to create, reoccur with revenue, you get a flywheel going. It's systems and process and everything else. And getting that crank going first is the hard bit. But once it's going, it's the maintenance that just keeps going. And then that's how you build your core business. And I'm starting to realise that the ice bath, the meditation, and all the rest of it is the flywheel that lets you keep going, um, and it's really, really hard to get it going again. Once you stop. Once you stop. Um, which is a pain in the ass, if I'm honest.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:10

And you're so right, and it can be anything like physical illness, uh, Christmas. As I mentioned when I nearly died from the flu. I didn't nearly die, I shouldn't say that on this podcast. Uh, it felt like it. And I did wet myself repeatedly. Um, why do I have to tell people that? Laughter Um Sorry, and so of course then you, you, you're not getting in an ice bath or running or walking the dog or doing whatever you're doing because you're, you're poorly. And the same can be said for mental health. If you are physically and emotionally completely beaten down by a mental, mental health crash, nobody's expecting you to get out and go for a run. But if you can get out and go for a little walk maybe, or even in my case, because I tend to retreat, um, if you can just come downstairs and I do, like, basically my fear when I'm In a, one of these, is that I'm going to say something or be horrible, or throw a high vis jacket at somebody. So I tend to isolate myself because I'm scared of myself, to, not that I'm going to do anything like crazy, crazy, but I feel a little out of control. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I can understand that. Um, so for me it's sort of learning about when to take the rest. Hector was meant to be having an operation today. So I have the day cleared and I'm obviously recording now, but afterwards I might Just not do very much and just, but, there's a difference between not doing very much when you're burnt out and not doing very much when you need to regroup and catch up. Sorry, I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but that was, that was one thing, and the other one was the, um, issues with mental health care. Uh, so, we see there's lots, there's t shirts, you know, Boys Cry 2, Boys Get Sad 2, Men's Mental Health Matters, there's all the hashtags, and when you actually reach out for the help, unless you have the financial wealth to pay for it, there's very

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 17:54

little. Yeah, well, actually, there's more to the story, because I, I, I told them, I did tell them to go fuck themselves, and just go, I'm going to do this myself. And they, uh, then I went, went into the Asda car park, and my brother rang me, spent 90 minutes on the phone, and he was, he was talking me through, uh, because he's older, so he has different, he has some different memories to me. And he sort of calmed me back down. Um, and he said to me, he's like, look, mate, he says, I've always thought that you've not finished doing whatever you need to do for your mental health, because I've not seen it come out of you yet. He says, but you never tell me anything, so how, how the fuck can I know? Uh, and I was like, okay, yeah. And because the GP said he was just across the car park, I went, actually, I'm going to go in and apologize. Because I've calmed down now and that was a unfair, maybe try and get an appointment because I really did want some sleep. If you haven't been struck off. Um, and I went in and the lady behind the counter, she went, it's okay my love, you've got a call back coming this afternoon.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:55

Um. Did that nearly kill you though? Because she was kind to you.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 18:58

Uh, yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:59

That would have got me. Especially if you'd been vital to somebody and then they're

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 19:03

nice to you. And then the, uh, I got the call by the doctor and I was driving back Holly's stuff, I was just driving back home. And he rang and I said, uh, I'm driving. It's a good to talk. I says, yes, I'm going to give you a quick rundown of the last five years. I sold my business. My wife got cancer. She died. I got COVID. I nearly died. I had PTSD and I also had a toxic parent and a traumatic upbringing and I can't sleep.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:28

And just drop

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 19:29

the mic. And he went, um, and how old are you? And I says, I'm 40, uh, how old am I? 46. 46 then. 46. And, uh, he went, yes, that's an awful lot for someone at your stage in life. Uh, I'd like you to come and see me tomorrow. Uh, then I went to see him. We talked about everything. He gave me some sleeping pills. He admitted that the only thing the NHS can offer counselling wise is CBT, which is not what I need. Um, but I've got the talk therapy as well. So the work I'm doing now is whenever I feel that anxiety, and wherever it sits in my stomach, I try to identify where it is and where it's come from. If I can't tell where it's come from, I've just, I said to my counsellor on Tuesday, I went, sometimes I don't know, it's just sitting there. She went, yeah, sometimes you've just got to learn to be uncomfortable.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:11

And I do think that somebody, and I include myself and many of our listeners in this, people who have been through a very traumatic experience, which the loss of your partner is, no matter how they die or at what stage in life, it is an enormous, enormous tragedy, and you will be impacted. So, it's this vital flight and this excess of cortisone that gives you this, this anxiety, you know, this feeling I get, my mind presents as a knot just below my rib cage at the top of my stomach. I can't eat. Um, I get very shaky. I might get quite, if, if, if the rage is coming, I get like this hot flush that comes up. But I'm trying to follow your lead a little bit and think okay so why am I anxious about this, what is, what do I think is going to happen, uh, what, what is, and actually what's, what's the worst that can happen? Are they going to hit me? Laugh at me? Do I have to do it naked? like, you know, the it, but the lizard brain is not rational. So every single day, and I have, don't think I've even said this to anybody other than you, every single day before the school and I have a, I have tremors and I have troubles, uh, breathing be, I can breathe through it and it passes, but I will then how mine kinda manifest is I will then just go and just talk random shit at people. Funny that, um. And then I feel embarrassed that I've overshared and it's, uh, you know, it, I guess, I suppose by showing that I'm just saying that you wouldn't know it to see me on the score and that I've got this kind of lump of anxiety just about being out in public. Um, but I do. And so if you do, you're not alone, I guess, is the, what we're trying to say.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 21:55

And the other thing, um, I am trying to do as well, which it did come from a counselor. Um, it's when these negative thoughts come in. Um, so, if I've, if I've all disclosed your burnout yesterday, I spent all day fighting my own head thinking it was my fault, that you were upset.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:20

It wasn't. Sorry, I should have said that. No, but, uh, But then nodding, it

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 22:24

was your fault, yes. But I just kept, uh, I had to keep doing the mantra all day long. This is not your fault, this is not your fault, this is not your fault. Because as soon as I think it's my fault, I change and I go into a different sort of reaction. And that's when I'm easy

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:35

to anger. And actually, don't you think, I mean, I'm, I'm going to just say, because when you Airbnb, it, Was just a very distressing time for both of us for both of us now I for me personally, I think it brought up quite a lot of abandonment fears and Sudden loss fears because I it's happened twice, you know, my best friend died very suddenly and then my husband died very suddenly. So It's that, and I've really struggled with this idea that people won't love me for who I am, or won't like me for who I am. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. Um, and that you, uh, you tend to put up a mask, a facade, particularly if you have a neurodiversity or mental health problem, because you feel like what you are underneath is not palatable to the rest of the world. And I panic sometimes at people. Will not want me around, or will not love me, um, if they see the ugly bit. Uh, and actually, my kind of fear came true, even though it wasn't related to my mental health at all. Um, and we've, we got through, we didn't crumble, you know? We, we both fought our separate demons apart, and then we came back together, and we talked, and we've both been to therapy. And It has jarred us both, I think, because how can it not? And this foundation of safety that we built ourselves, this sandcastle, um, it was a bit scary to feel it slip beneath our feet. And I'm not saying that to blame you, because you cannot be blamed for that. That was a mental health crash. If you did be like, if you walk out on me again, I'll change the gate code. But, um, and take the hole in the bed. We, we are all allowed to fall and we're all allowed to do things that aren't rational and are out of character. And I refer you to the ves jackets because that's what humans are. And we are humans, but we're also humans. Mm-Hmm. With a lot of trauma. Um, so yeah, it, it did it, it brought up some stuff and the kids were a bit confused, but ultimately what we showed our children is that adults. Even adults who love each other as much as we do can, there can be complications and issues within a marriage, within a relationship, within your own brain. But the only way to deal with them is to talk about it. And the, you know, in an age appropriate way as possible, we've talked to the kids and. Um, we are learning on the job in every aspect of this, um, parenting alone is, is, uh, you learn on every day, right? So you just often call it whack a mole, especially when you have a few, because you just think you've got one sorted out and then another one will pop up with an issue, but you then throw in bereaved children, bereavement for us, um, the fact that, you know, we do still love Ben and Sarah. So that is going to add a complication in. Uh, because it's, it's also a very strange thing to grieve for somebody that you love whilst also being with somebody else that you love. And I, personally, because of the amount of grieving I've blocked out, I'm having to do quite a heavy load of grief, or have been doing over the last 12 months. And again, that must be quite difficult to stand by and watch somebody you love grieve for somebody else. It's, it, it's not easy. We are a work in progress, all of us, all the time. And I suppose the only thing you can do is just keep trying to do better because I, I beat myself up terribly if I shout at the kids or Yeah, me too, me too. But the only way, I know, I know I have said this on the podcast before but for, for, continue, I'll say it again. My counsellor said to me early on, I can tell that you're terrified that you're going to fuck your kids up. And she said, I'm going to tell you that you already have. And I just looked at her, aghast. And she said, everybody has fucked their kids up. Like, in some way. Not on any great level, we hope. But, you know, we can all remember being shouted at by our parents. But hopefully there's enough memories of love. And also for taking responsibility for it. And saying, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that, or I shouldn't have done that. Yeah, well

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 26:59

that's, that's the big thing is, if you do the explosion. Um, and once you've, once you've sort of calmed down and cooled off, you go, actually, it was a bit over the top. Yeah. And then, you know, cause I, I demanded to go and apologize to, um, like, all the children, your mum and dad, um, and not, not to explain myself, but it just felt like I can't just leave this unacknowledged. Yeah. Um, you know, it, it was wrong. I couldn't help it, but now I understand it and I will make changes to do

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:29

differently. Yeah, but that's it, we're learning, aren't we? We're all learning. We were watching On a completely different note, because I do like to do that. We were watching telly last night, you know, as we do in our rock and roll house of telly watching and laundry. Um, we, actually, you had booked for a meal out last night, hadn't you, and I cancelled because I just really didn't fancy it, so I shouldn't, you know, so the romance does live. And we were watching on ITV this thing called The Twelve, and it's about a jury, it's Australia, it's in Australia, and they talk, they used a phrase or a term that I had never heard before, and that term was ambiguous grief. And maybe you have heard of that out there, maybe I'm just a bit behind, but it means unanswered, you know, where there's questions, where you don't know what happened, it's ambiguous. So, really locked in with me, I kept saying it, sitting there, ambiguous grief, ambiguous grief. Because nobody's ever really given my grief a name, and now it has one. And, in turn, I guess it's made me think a bit about That ambiguous grief, and about how unusual and scary it was to know that my husband was dead, but not really to know how, and not to know where his body was. And I don't think I've, I think it was so secondary to the horror and the shock of losing him, that it almost got a little bit packed away. And when I tell the tale, the story, I will talk about Ben dying in a scuba accident. And sometimes I actually don't even say, his body's not been found. Because it feels so secondary to the, to the loss. But actually, when you really stop and think about that, that's pretty tough, isn't it? It's, it's an important con further. Because it's, there is an unknown. And no, I don't think he's alive. I, I, I don't. Because nobody could have survived those conditions. And the Coast Guard told me in a very matter of fact way that he would not survive it. So I don't think he's been picked up by a French trawler ship or that he's You know, who had a brain injury and is, you know, married with two more children in France or Belgium. But, there is a level of unknown, of ambiguity to it. So I, I guess I just wanted to talk about it on here, because it's not an, something, it's not an aspect of my grief that I do talk about a lot. Um, and it's something I am going to talk about counselling as well. Uh, I guess I just, if anybody else out there has this, this unknown, you know, they don't know how their partner or their person or whoever it may be died. It's, it's, that's a pretty little exclusive club actually. So, um, yeah, I'm here if anybody wants to talk about it, basically.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 30:17

Um, but also there's probably a bit of acknowledgement around it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:19

as well. Yeah, I, I said to you today, didn't I, I feel in a weird way, like it's got a name. Yeah. This feeling of, uh, yes, he's dead, but I don't know how or where. Yeah. Um, and I can't be the only one because people die in all sorts of Weird. And I was gonna say wonderful, but I'm not gonna say weird and wonderful circumstances.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 30:39

Oh God. Um, well, I mean, we've had a few interviews Mm-Hmm. With the You have and they're the ones that are tough for you. Yeah, they

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:45

are. It's not always the water ones. It's the ones, it's the ones where they don't know. And actually sudden deaths as well are often landing hard. So I did one, um, oh, it was somebody and somebody I knew I interviewed last week, Kirsty, hello, if you're listening. And I had to really gear myself up for that one because there was just a couple of. Similarities in it and that's what there are going to be and people do regularly say to me Are you sure that doing this is good for you? Or do you think that it could be doing you harm and the honest answer is I think it's done me good I think it's forced me to confront so many aspects of my own grief that I had swept under the carpet and that is never going to be comfortable and it's never Going to be easy But it does have to come out. So, you guys have helped me as much as I hope I've helped you. But after we hit episode 100, we are going to be putting these out bi weekly. So, just to take the pressure off and enable me to work a little bit on my personal project, which does have a grief element because that's who I am, but it also is going to be an opportunity to talk to whoever. Whenever and about whatever. So on that note, actually, if you would like to be considered for appearing on my new podcast, um, you can contact us at Instagram widowed underscore AF, and I will let you know the new, new details. As soon as I have them, you can

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 32:05

email the show at

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:07

you can do that as well. If you wanted to go, if you're not an Instagrammer, um, and what else was I going to talk about today, John?

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 32:16

I don't know, because I did really rubbish notes, didn't I? Oh yeah, yeah, you wrote, you wrote Executive assistant,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:20

I am not. No, I need an executive Lulu's actually set herself up as a, um, freelance executive assistant, so, watch this space there. Maybe I'll be, maybe she can organise it. I don't know if that's the blind meeting the blind. I did get to see some of my Widow tribe, or we got to, went to the Cotswolds for Sarah Middleton's birthday. I won't disclose the age, but it had a zero on it. And it was really lovely to see a couple of the tribe, and just, I, just being around your people is good, isn't it? Yeah. And the Cotswolds is just so beautiful. On the subject of Widowed Friends, We have just booked an AirBNB in Suffolk for a couple of nights next week, So I'm going to go and see Lulu in Scarlet, where we are, and have a bit of a sea air we were going to go up north, um, Because we tend to do a pilgrimage up north, and a pilgrimage to the Isle of Wight. But, in my infinite wisdom, I decided that we should sell our 8 seater car and get a mini. Because, I don't like driving in this big van thing. Which is brilliant, apart from when you think, Four kids on the train! It

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 33:22

would have been fine. Um, no one could actually meet

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:25

us when we got up there, so. No, and also I booked the train home on the wrong day. But, we'll gloss over that. So, we found an absolute steal, lovely beachfront house in Felixstown. So, we're going to have a couple of days by the sea. So, if anybody's Suffolk based, hit me up and we'll meet you for a dog walk. Yeah. Um, and I think that's it really. I, I, I'm sure there's loads that I could have covered and I haven't. I mean, we didn't really talk about previous episodes either, but. I think we'll let the episodes do the talking. Yeah, I think so. They are where you, where you usually find them. Remember that the odd number ones are tougher to listen to, and the even number ones are usually quite light hearted, but we've gone, we've gone a little bit deeper today. Except today. But I just felt like we, we kind of, not owed it to our listeners, because that's not how this works, the whole ethos behind this is, is Authenticity and honesty. So we will, we'll, we will be as honest as we can and hope that it does some good out there, really. Yeah. So lots of love to all you over thinkers, grievers and listeners. Yeah. I'm

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 34:26

generally confused people. Yeah. I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:28

mean, that's everybody, right? So take care of yourselves. Um, and just quickly Widstock is in the running, the ticket. Uh, text has been sent to the designer, and tickets should be available to buy by the end of this month. We will keep you informed, and if you're not on the mailing list, sign up because you'll get first refusal on the tickets. Yeah, just go

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 34:47

to the website, click newsletter, put your email address in. Um, we've not actually sent the newsletter yet, so we won't spam you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:52

No, it's because that's my job, and I haven't written anything. But, um, and also we are expecting this thing to sell out, so if you do want a ticket, keep an eye on your emails. That's it, really? Yeah. Alright, um, we'll be back with you on Monday with a spankin new episode. Who's on Monday? I could tell you, but I'd have to put it on the computer. You'd have to look, wouldn't you? Well, we have an episode out on Monday, so please listen, and, uh, just I was gonna say Leanne, but Leanne No, Leonie was Monday, wasn't she? It didn't go on Monday. No, Monday before. Right, we can save this for off the microphone. Yeah, it doesn't matter. There's an episode out on

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 35:26

Monday, and it's a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:27

It's great. Bye now. Yeah. All right everybody, take care of yourselves and we'll speak to you soon. Lots of love. Bye bye.