S2:E2 The Triumph of Black Motherhood: Prisons, Pews, and Protests

When the weight of societal judgment weighs on the shoulders of Black mothers, where can they turn for solace and strength? Our latest conversation with Reverend Dr. Najuma Smith Pollard tackles this piercing question, unwrapping layers of faith interlaced with the fabric of social justice. A legacy passed down from her activist grandparents, Reverend Najuma's life is a testament to the power of education and awareness in challenging systemic injustices. We uncover the raw realities of Black motherhood, the criminalization of poverty, and the untold stories of resilience that redefine the narrative of struggle into one of indomitable spirit. Rev. Najuma vulnerably shares her personal story with the stigma and shame of survival as a single poor Black mother that led to incarceration and how her resilience is a source of an unlawful salvation that fuels her faith as a social justice leader and Pastor.

The echoes of the gospel's call for liberation frame our dynamic discussion, as we untangle the sanitized interpretations that strip the Bible of its social justice roots. Reverend Najuma's insights as a pastor and community leader spotlight the church's pivotal role in advocating for the marginalized, serving as the hands and feet of a faith that demands action against oppression. We share our own encounters with systemic barriers and the psychological toll they exact on those fighting to provide for their families, while also casting a vision of hope through communal support and empowerment strategies.

As a beacon leading towards the intersection of faith and justice, this episode is an invitation to join hands with movements reshaping the future of black and brown communities. Witness the transformative power of solidarity as we reflect on our experiences, from the painful loss of loved ones to the triumph of breaking cycles of poverty. We leave listeners with actionable steps, urging them to engage with social justice initiatives that resonate, educate themselves on the systemic challenges, and embrace the communal vision of thriving and justice for all.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Welcome to the abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast, where we bring you leading voices, confronting issues, and interventions at the intersections of faith, abolition, and black motherhood. Our vision is to build a faith based abolitionist movement and we invite you our listeners to support and join our coalition. Abilition is sanctuary is a nonprofit organization that provides public education and certified training to faith communities, civic organizations, educational institutions, and individuals who aim to organize against the moral crisis of mass incarceration and the criminalization of impoverished black motherhood. I am your host, reverend doctor, Nikias Smith Robert, the executive direct of abolitionist Sanctuary. You can follow me at Nikea s Robert and at abolitionist Sanctuary on in Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. You can also sign up for exclusive updates, donate, and support us at w w w dot abolitionist sanctuary dot org. I am thrilled to be joined with our guest, reverend, doctor Najuma Smith Polard, pastor of Word encouragement Church and assistant director of community and public engagement with the University of Southern California Center for Religion and Civic Culture, where she also leads programming for the CSO Murray Center of Community engagement. Hello, Dr. Najuma?

Speaker 2: 1:45

Hey, Dr. Najeeah. Glad to be on with you today. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:49

I'm so glad that you're here with us.

Speaker 2: 1:51

That to be here as well. Thank you so very much.

Speaker 1: 1:54

Can you share with us your pronouns, describe what you look like, and introduce yourself?

Speaker 2: 2:00

Sure. My pronouns are she and her. And what do I look like? That's a great question. I don't often have to describe my So I would say I am definitely a brow skin, beautiful, system with pink blacks and and I love white colors and Yeah. I I today, I'm wearing bright yellow and white. Some are real bright individual. Like, there's not much You always I'm always standing out in the crowd. And and the way I introduce myself as, typically, as Reverend Najuma, sometimes Reverend Jude depending on the setting.

Speaker 1: 2:47

Would you like for me to call you Reverend Jude on this interview?

Speaker 2: 2:51

It whatever feels natural for you, revampoon or revampoonoon. I typically use revampoonoon if people are having a hard time saying, medumpa. So it is really And somebody would say, dude, dude, dude just because we're friends like that. So whatever is still comfortable for you, I I'm good. Well, I'm excited because I have the privilege of knowing you as my dear Reverend's sister

Speaker 1: 3:14

and birth dates when we share this thing with her face on January eighteenth. Yeah. And so you are both my praying partner and my stepping sister.

Speaker 2: 3:25

Yes. And that's a blessing. That's a blessing.

Speaker 1: 3:30

Indeed. And so I know you as a pastor as a professional and as a parent. Can you describe your faith journey and how it has evolved to center social justice?

Speaker 2: 3:44

Thank you for that. Absolutely. So my journey with social justice and faith really goes back to a little kid. I was even though I was when my I come out of a single parent home, but my mother had I spent a lot of time with my grandmother and my grandfather because my mom worked And there were times when she was working the night shift and then sometimes the day shift. So this is my grandparents a lot. Both of whom were very active in their churches. In addition, they were also very active socially. So my grandmother worked at Ketrin. And there was always some young kid from Ketrin if you're not familiar for your listeners who are not familiar with Ketrin. Kedron is the local it's a local LA. Well, it's probably not local just to LA, but it's at the what I for what I knew at that time. It was a place for mental health services and other services for the hood, for the neighborhood. Right? So my grandmother always had somebody's kid with her who was challenged to a degree in their mental health. Some of it was just behavioral health, but and she was always, like, feeding and closing. And we spent a lot of time at church where she did that kind of work. And then my grandfather, he was the activist at his church. You know, he was very much engaged. He on second Baptist, which, you know, for those who are not familiar, second Baptist is one of the oldest black churches in LA. But historical pastors like pastor Kil Thomas Kilgore and still pastor pastor pastor pastor Ed. Both of whom centers, social justice, and all of their preaching. It's, you know, king, doctor Marmsley King came there a couple times and other you know, social justice activists and civil rights leaders came through second batches. So my grandfather was that passed, you know, that not passed away with that church member. Right? He was fully engaged in worship, but also fully engaged in whatever his church was doing socially. And I hung with them both a lot. And so for me, it was just a part of my growing up. It was what I was exposed to and my grandfather was a storyteller type. So he was always shared with me as a as a kid stories about what it was like to go up in you know, the racist south and his experiences and why was important. We got our what what he called, get you lesson, meaning go to school, get good grades, you know, and be be aware, you know, he taught me to to just understand what's happening in life. So that's so that's where it begins for me is that time with my grandparents. And then when I turned seventeen, I was brought to this first family church by my aunt. And my first Sunday there, I joined. It was pastor Mary's preaching was just really it it resonates where I was at the time at seven team coming out of high school. And and, you know, at that time fame was was starting to really bustle. And I got really engaged with all of the programming to include social justice concerns committee, to include missionary department, the youth youth department in Sunday school. And so it's it's always been a part of my you know, essence, I guess, if you will. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then later, at some point, my mother share with me that she was a black Panther for a short time. And I know my father was very pro black coming out of Vietnam, which is why I had the name Madula because he wanted to make sure I had an African name. Right? You know, so it was having those parents and grandparents that were very clear about their blackness. And Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:47

That's that's really good. Thank you for sharing that. By the way, what does Najumas stand for? What does it say?

Speaker 2: 7:52

So so my full name is Domalene Najumas, beautiful vision abounding in joy. It's a swahili name, but Najum is also Arabic. So when I traveled to Morocco, In Turkey, they pronounced it Najima.

Speaker 1: 8:08

Excellent. And it had a same meaning or a different meaning?

Speaker 2: 8:11

Yeah. A star, bright a bright light start and beautiful vision. Yep.

Speaker 1: 8:16

Excellent. Well, thank you for sharing your faith journey and how social justice is at the center of it, but also community and the ways in which generations are connected through struggle and this kind of hope for freedom. Yeah. That is so central to the black church that we see through Dr. King, we see through your grandparents, and the pastors that you mentioned. Yeah. And I think about, you know, all the things that are happening in our world and our nation particularly one of the major issues that we have seen is with so many mass shootings and churches and supermarkets and schools can you tell me how you engage your faith to respond to these socio issues, particularly the issue of gun violence and state violence in black communities.

Speaker 2: 9:04

Yeah, so I think the first thing is being clear as a as a pastor that even if those things aren't happening in my church or my neighborhood, that I cannot preach around them. Right? So I don't think I don't think I have any members who would demand a sermon or an acknowledgment of the violence, the gun violence, the shootings. But I also recognize that I that's not healthy for me to preach around most things and to act like just because it's not happening here, we don't have to address it. So that's that's the first thing is to be be mindful to be thoughtful around what's happening in communities. And that may not necessarily be right at our door in the moment. So that's one thing, but also to encourage our members to show up where they can. You know, we just here had as you know, Monday, we had and interface vigil. And so those are spaces that even if it's not happening at your home or in your space, those are places we could show up and be in solidarity because it really does means I didn't, you know, for a long time in a queue, I didn't I didn't really get hold that whole stand in south of Derrick. Like, what does that mean? So I had to learn the meaning of what it meant. Like, you know, what's the what's the relevance of standing in solidarity? And it's really about voice and numbers And sometimes it it only feels like work the work that you're doing is only effective if you're making, like, a tangible difference that you can see. And what I've had to learn is that presence and voice giving voice to a thing, whether I'm on the East Coast and no problems on the West Coast or vice versa really in our case. Giving voice, giving space, all of that collective energy leads to change. Over time, of course, but all of it's important. So those are those are things that people can do. Right? They can stand in solidarity but also being engaged in the third piece, which is being engaged in conversations for change. Right? So, you know, working with the DA's office in his faith based council, you know, working with BLM and pushing helping to push the people's budget. Like, these are tangible things we can do in addition to voting. There are places we can actually show up and actually do work that leads to changes. And so we're depend and it doesn't matter where you stand on the gun by gun issue. That's not really the case. It's about being present at the issues that are important to you as an individual. So for your for everyone that's listening or watching the podcast, it's like gun violence may or may not be your issue. To. It may not be a thing that you feel called to, but whatever it is, that is your issue or you feel called to pray about it, do the spiritual thing, do the communal thing which is be president vigils and conversations, but also take part in action. Right? Like, take part in action. And so for me, being part of the vigil on Monday as we lifted up the issue of go violence was important. And then also continue to work with here locally like our DA's office and some of the things that his progressive agenda is trying to do you know, as it relates to how violence is dealt with here in Los Angeles, in particular, South LA, that disproportionately affects black and brown families. So those are the three things I think, yeah, That's how I that's how I I engage in those three ways.

Speaker 1: 13:01

Thank you for sharing that and really emphasizing the importance of coalition building.

Speaker 2: 13:06

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 13:06

And and the church's role and responsibility to show up for the community Right. In ways that is consonant with the gospel message of liberation. Right, what we're called to do as followers of Jesus for those who believe. Right. Right? And how the the church has always been a hub of a center for political action in ways that advocated for the liberation of the black community. So Yeah. Thank you for for your role. And and

Speaker 2: 13:37

and I and I I just wanna add this one little piece. And what we often mistake about the gospel itself is that it's not a social justice gospel. But it absolutely is. And again, everybody doesn't know this. This is something I had to learn as I you know, you and I both as we've matriculate through the, you know, the academics of preaching plus just being, you know, being engaged with with educating ourselves and being educated and so on and so forth. The whole gospel, the whole bible is a social just this document. Right? Because every era of the of the bible is written under some kind of oppressive governmental rule. And when people when I tell people that and I explain to them, like, there's not there like, the bible was not written. In the way that we often hear sanitize, like, it's somehow the writers wrote during times of great peace and joy, happiness, and everybody was saying kumbayana, a whole bible from Genesis to Revelation. Is there is an oppressive rule. And and so everything about the text is social justice. And, you know, I mean, it's spiritual and it's all about social justice because the people were constantly under oppressive rule. And so yeah. So, I mean, I think that's one of the things that why it's important for churches is because the very gospel that we preach and teach from is a social justice document. And people just tend to look at it very sanitized as if God just want us to come together and sink goodbye. Yeah. No. No. The the bible actually really addresses some major issues. And maybe God violence wasn't the issue. You know, during the time of judges, but people were being oppressed. You know? Girls are being marginalized. And boys were being taken advantage of. And there were all kinds of, you know, social justice things happening around widows and orphans. And, you know, so once people so that's one of the things I try to teach my church is, like, it's a social justice document. In addition to being a very spiritual document. So that's enough on that.

Speaker 1: 16:02

No. That's really good. Right? That we have a responsibility to read the bible and it's context, absolute abundance of ways in which it is connected to social context. Yeah. And that the the bible isn't not ahistorical. Right? It's not apolitical. But it is speaking to political times. In fact, it was the Roman Empire that persecuted Jesus price and similarly to the ways in which black and brown bodies are persecuted by the cultural state. And so to under than the ways in which Christianity is complicit in these mechanisms of punishment that resulted in a state sanctioned execution against the savior. We you know, the very man, we professor savior

Speaker 2: 16:45

Right.

Speaker 1: 16:45

To under we have to understand that in order to under stand the ways in which black and brown bodies are being persecuted today in the US cultural state. And when we make those connections, then it should compel us Right. To engage and and and you know, movements for social justice.

Speaker 2: 17:07

And I and so yeah. So I think the the disadvantage is in this in modern days, in modern times, The Bible has been one I think there have been systems and people who who want to sanitize. The gospel. So it appears to be a document about good people being good and that there are a few bad apples in the world when really it's it's deeper than that. And and I I think it's important that people impact that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:36

Absolutely. And and and to be honest that this narrative of good and bad, worthy and unworthy, deserving and unserving, has been harmful. Yes. Right? Particularly for women. Yeah. And for black and brown people. And in fact, we are all created in the image of God. Right? In the Amago Day God called All of Creation Good. And so understanding that. And I just wanted to say, as you talked about the Bible as a social gospel book, our listeners can check out Walter Rouskin Bush's book on the social gospel as well as Gary and Dorian who does some work on the black social gospel and the ways in which thinkers and preachers such as WWE Beat The Boyse and Doctor King are kind of demonstrating what that social gospel looks like in real life. Right. So thank you. Thank you for that, Dr. Nejima. Could you share, you know, just gonna shift lens a minute, as you know, publishing sanctuaries and nonprofit organization that focuses on the criminalization of poor black mothers.

Speaker 2: 18:45

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:46

Can you share your experience? You mentioned a bit of your mom growing up and impoverished and how the community was central for you and your survival. Can you talk about kind of the role of black mothers as sole providers for their families and some of the challenges you may face and how that might relate to the ways in which poor black mother survival strategies are criminalized by the U. S. Cultural state.

Speaker 2: 19:13

Right. So I was raised by a single black mother. My father, my mother separated split up, you know, and I was really probably I don't even know if I was too yet. And no shade to my dad, it just it just was what it was. And I don't I don't even know the details of their separation. It happened so long ago that by the time I was of age to to know they both had moved on. But But I what you know, my mom and and, like, I didn't know it then, but, you know, my mom we weren't poor. My mother wasn't poor, I'm just saying, because, you know, I was I didn't admit. But my mother wasn't poor. She just worked hard, but she had to work hard so that we would we wouldn't be poor. Right? She had to work the night shift and sometimes the day shift. She had to pull in the extra you know, the extra hours so we can have what we have. But my mother also had a really cool strategy, which is everything we had came from Google. So I tell people Like, I and and I don't say it in, like, a negative way because you didn't know most of what I had came from a salvage norm. But me and my mother at the service, not me, every other weekend, if not every weekend. So she had a strategy. Right? She we didn't shop at the mall much. We didn't buy she didn't buy a lot of brand new stuff, you know. A lot of stuff was was secondhand. And I'm gonna say, we never got new stuff. It just wasn't her strategy. And that allowed her to do more with what she has, so I could have more and see more experience more. So because my mother was frugal in one area, it allowed for other opportunities. So I didn't miss out. But I just I just know now, you know, at that time I was a kid, so I didn't I just thought that was life. But now as an adult, you know, once I became an adult, I'm a bad card, it reflects it. I understand I'm gonna have a strategy. Like, I'm not gonna spend a lot of money eating out. We're not gonna spend a lot of money on stuff. We're not gonna spend a lot of money on clothes in the latest and greatest, not that we didn't have, but she shifted the use of her money with her dollars so that I could do other things like travel with her. We could do other things like go to museums. We could do other things like be exposed to stuff that would help me develop mentally and, you know, intellectually. And so that was her strategy. And and in hindsight, I see it now. I see it, you know, I saw it as I grew up got older. Back then, I just thought that's just how life was. And I thought everybody's shopping at a salvage moment, so I found out everybody doesn't shop at the salvage army. But it's okay, you know, because she was even good about that. Wasn't it was hammering down, but it wasn't raggedy, you know. So so that's that's that's what I pulled most of, like, the being raised by a single black mother is how she had to be very strategic with her dollars, and how she had to make huge sacrifices so I could have a lot of opportunities and experiences. And I'm I'm like that with my kids now and have always been, you know, understanding like you make sacrifices. The the challenge was when I had my person, things were different by that time. Right? So rent was more cost more. And so and then Daniel's father was prison, my well, the son's father was prison. When he was just a baby. So I was I was left, like, a single mom. And then I got hit with unemployment because company I was working for moved out of state. And so there was a lot of changes happening in the nineties. That's when I had my first son. And I found myself needing to go on WIC and what'd you call that federal assistance? And I remember my first day going down to the building. In Santa Monica to get federal assistance because I just couldn't make the ends meet. Right? And and feeling like this is some BS. Like, this is some nonsense. What am I doing here? But I was there like all the other mothers were there because I needed it. I needed the help. But I will say this about federal assistance, offices, It's a crime sharing how they have those places set up for mothers. They don't have us, you know, you gotta you gotta bring your kids. That's first a problem. And you gotta bring your kids, but then they don't keep they don't have a there's no stevia for my children. Right? Because you know, So you got this this room full of mothers and kids, no adequate chairs, no adequate seating, no space for kids. Now all offices aren't like that. I've actually been in a different office with some because of the staff. They put in a little personal touch, but in the way of the whole process of getting on federal assistance. It was just very humiliating. And embarrassing. And and then they, you know, then they started with all these rules. Yes, and regulations. And it was probably the hardest time in my life. And I was only on I wasn't on it. I I didn't do the long term plan. I did the I did the short term plan. What I mean by that is I I was only on it for about four and a half years. But I was so grateful when things were able to turn around for me with work and school that I could get off of federal assistance. You know, and I had to move into a single apartment and, you know, you had to move to a single apartment that would take, you know, my income level. Right? So it wasn't the best apartment building. Right? It we had we had we had road checks, you know. My son's bedroom, when he was a baby, was the kitchen. I I was I cleverly put a little spot in the kitchen, made it hit there. He didn't know. He didn't know it was a bed he didn't know it was a kitchen. He thought it was his bedroom. Because he was a baby. And and and and and, thankfully, we were able to move out of there before he got older to recognize what was really happening. But it was tough. It was tough in the keynote line. It was tough. It was and I had to make some choice. Like, I had to do some, you know, It was a tough time. I did not explain it all. But, you know, there were times I didn't have money for

Speaker 1: 26:03

diapers.

Speaker 2: 26:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:07

Take your time, Seth.

Speaker 2: 26:12

So, you know, you had to make some choices for some things. Right? And I remember I will I and I remember this one part season out. I have I was I did finally get a job, and But at the time, when I got the job before I got the job, I had tickets. And and one of them obviously had turned to a warrant because I had the money to pay for it Mhmm. And getting stopped and off I was like, oh, we got to take him in because it's a warrant. And I was like, sir, please. This is out. You can take the keys and the car. But I gotta get my baby from daycare. And he wouldn't let me go. And and have him call it a day care provider from inside of jail because he only gave me a phone call. And and I'm gonna tell a day care provider, can you call my mom to get my that was rough. Yeah. That was rough. Yeah. Because I didn't have fifteen hundred dollars to pay the ticket. And there was just no and we're like there's no other option. You gotta do this incarceration. And and just nobody hearing, like, but I got a kid that's that day care. Like, do you not understand what I'm telling you? And and his father, Tom, was incarcerated. And so when I think about moms who have to leave their, you know, a lot of moms got to leave their kids. I had to leave my kid at daycare. And I mean, you know, he was at a decent daycare, but still, like, just having to go through that. So that was rough, you know. That was that was rough. It was a rough time. But there was no sympathy, no empathy, no well, what combinations can we make for this mom? For a kid. How do we ensure the kid is gonna be safe? Like, they didn't know if my kid was gonna be safe or not. If I didn't come pick him up, and they didn't care. That was the part that was, like, I was pleased with people. Like, please, like, and there's no no accommodation. And It's a lot of women out there that the kid you know this because you study this work. It's a lot of women out there whose kids are left very vulnerable over fifteen hundred dollars. Mhmm. You know what I'm saying over tickets, over and yes, it's to be and remember this one time, this one officer. He was like, well, you should pay your stuff sometimes, like, listen, man. You don't know me. You don't know my story. You don't know why I didn't pay, what I didn't pay. Don't judge me because you don't and I had to go off on the side, like, you don't know me. You don't judge me. You don't know what I've been through. You don't know my story. You don't know anything about when you're making a judgment call. And he kinda was like, well, I'm just saying, I just went, don't say nothing. And I just kinda went off on because he got in his, like, you know, in his you know, and yeah. I mean, of course, don't you know, of course, I know just pay it. But if I got the money to pay it, and that the system is not set up to work with my budget and work with my where I am. And so a lot of stuff there's a lot of people in jail because they just didn't have a budget for whatever, not because they're criminals. You know, saying that because they're they're trying to if there's more people out there that leaky eye say this, it's more women that admit. Who who would gladly pay these tickets and whatever else is out there, whatever other challenges. But, you know, life happens to everybody and learn it can be hard. And if you don't have it and so much about the colonization. Right? It's like, you are here doing the best you can and not paying something simple like a ticket or not getting your tags on time could cause a mother to be separate from her kids and nobody cares if those kids may or may not be vulnerable to some other nonsense. You know, saying, like, Yeah. I'm a police officer one time left me and my baby on the side of the road impounded my car. It was a middle of the night. I was like, so you just called In a pound mark, he was like, well, you better call somebody. So it's just like this whole know it would be, and the system is not set up to care. Yes. And clearly, I wasn't the time of my life where I wasn't a hundred being responsible. And I'm not making excuses for that. I'm just saying, like, if I could have done better, come on. Of course, I would have done better. If I had a better circumstance, of course, I'd be in a better circumstance, but that's not what it was. And everybody you know, I wouldn't give you the tools. I didn't know certain things at that time. So and there's a lot of mothers and children suffering because they just don't have tools. They don't have information. They don't have access. And so but their vulnerability and the bug of their children The system doesn't care.

Speaker 1: 32:06

Yeah. It says thank you so much for sharing your story, and I just want to give you all your props and flowers or how you made a way out of no way for your baby and how you are here to tell the story. As a survivor as a champion. You made it, girl. You did it. Yeah. Yeah. And we give god we give god praise for you, so thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 32:30

I'm emotional because, you know, Daniel, I tell people I talked to Daniel was my struggle kid. Like, unfortunately, he was the kid that had to go a mom and do her struggles. You know, so to lose him, so early in his life, and to not for him, not to not to help him do great things that I would able to do at twenty five and twenty six and twenty seven. So it's emotional for me because he was also my troubled kid and the one that we lost in twenty eighteen. So I wish I could have given him a better, beginning. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:05

Yeah. And that's a lot to carry this. So a lot to carry it, but you gave him so much. You gave him love. You've given him your you know, you gave him god. You gave him so much. And I know he if he was here today, he would kiss you and say thank you, madam.

Speaker 2: 33:26

Absolutely. He was a grateful kid. But, you know, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:33

And for those of you, Dr. Najuma lost her son to gun violence in two thousand and eighteen. And we continue to carry Daniel's memory with us as he is now your guardian angel watching over you.

Speaker 2: 33:51

Yep. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 33:52

So John McReynolds has this song called cycles. And as you were speaking, I could just hear it. Cycles. And I'm thinking about the ways in which and and I just want to, you know, full disclosure that I know much of what you're speaking about, not only through research, but through our shared experience, right, where I also grew up to a single poor black mother who had my brother at the age of fifteen and he was her troubled child and is also so was also just this impacted and served federal time. And so with that and growing up in Harlem, New York at the height of that warn drugs and the crack era, all of that struggle was very much a part of my story. Right? A part of my survival story. But what really resonated with me is as you talked about your experience, you know, that versus your mother's experience with poverty and how your mom made sacrifices to give you better opportunities and exposure through museums and trips that gave you a good head start in life. And and then you mentioned that life happens. Right? Their life happens beyond our control, and life happens for you in ways in which that cycle of poverty circled back around and it became a part of your story. And and particularly, well fare system, the welfare system. You talked about how humiliating and degradating that that system is, how it it robs people of their human dignity that it is not designed to honor the agency of poor black mothers who are showing up in that office to rightfully receive government intervention because the system is stacked up against us in such a way that it is not designed for us to flourish in. Right? Yeah. And and you, you know, touched about touched upon this criminalization of poverty right, how a fifteen hundred dollar ticket shouldn't be kind of the the cause of a mother being separated from their child and the ways in which there's the collateral consequences that makes that child vulnerable to other harms. Right? It's these cycles. Right? And then you talked about the rules in the welfare system, and how these rules effectively function as an extension of the Crossroads State. Right? The rules are designed in a way that it is nearly impossible to follow them.

Speaker 2: 36:33

Right? You yeah. It's it's impossible to follow them, and it's impossible to actually thrive. Like, you actually just have to make up your mind I'm just gonna job and get off. Like, I'm just gonna and and and that's not an easy decision. Let me say that because what job. Right? And then if I give up the the the check, if I went from the check, then what access do I have to to money for childcare? So it's not people said, well, just get a job. It's not that it's not that simple. Now I did it, but trust me, like and I just I can say this before disclosing you When I got off AFDC, my kid my son's babysitter at the time were the next door neighbor's kids. I don't know what those kids did to my child. I'm not saying that they didn't do better. I'm just saying, I don't know what happened because I had to, like, just leave. It was my only option I couldn't have at the time, at that in in that initially, I didn't have I hadn't have made enough money to, like, pay for the child to go up the street. And remember his dad was in Christmas. I didn't have help. I didn't have any help. I didn't have any help. And my mother at the time was living you know, Northern California and and she and I at that time didn't have the best relation. That's a whole new story. But so I didn't have readily I didn't have help. I didn't have people say, well, I take care of this, but you take care of that. So I had to leave my kid with the neighbor's kids And every like, there are times like I just prayed. Like, I'm just praying that my kid was okay. I don't know what the kids did to my you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't I don't think nothing bad at it. I don't believe that, but, like, the things I had to, like, worry about, like, man, I hope they feed him. How they do this? How they all you know, and then you every day coming on with checking, are you okay? Would you eat? You know? So So it's not that simple. I had to make even to get off the system and and move into just having the job. I had to make some initial sacrifices with that, and it wasn't easy.

Speaker 1: 38:49

Yeah. And and, you know, Katie Geneva Cannon, who's a woman as ethicist, talks about how the ways in which poor black mothers face limited options. Right? And that is a part of the system. It takes away our options. And so we have to make ways out of no ways. Right?

Speaker 2: 39:06

We You can't you can't you know, well, you know this. You cannot this is for your listeners. You cannot beyond federal assistance and have x amount dollars in your checking account. What? So I gotta be I gotta I gotta not only be broke to get on, I gotta stay broke or at least I gotta stay broke in your mind. Like, how sick is that? If you tell a person you can't drive financially while you earn this, But that's the whole point. So I get in a better position, and then I can get off.

Speaker 1: 39:36

Absolutely. And so you have No. And it's it's it's you have every right to be frustrated and you join so many other poor black mothers who share that frustration. Right? Because This leads to because of those limited choices, because of the systematic stacked up against us, that makes it nearly impossible to follow its rules and to thrive that we are left with making these hard decisions between following their rules AND BREAKING THE RULES AND BREAKING THEIR LAWS AND BREAKING THEIR LAWS. DIDN'T AND MANY AND MANY POUR BLACK MOTHER'S to break the rules and the laws in order to survive and provide for their children against unjust social conditions. And so if it means braiding hair in your kitchen while receiving welfare subsidies because the welfare subsidies are inadequate, absolutely. Then people we'll make a way out of no way. Right? And rather than celebrate the ingenuity and the courage It takes to find creative ways to make multiple streams of income. Right? To provide for your family, we criminalize them. Yeah. Because they're not following rules that aren't set up to advantage their agency Right. And their human dignity. Yeah. Right? And so we shared that and that my mom also made those tough decisions between following rules and laws or breaking them in order to provide from our family. And I also share that experience where the community had to kick in when a poor black mother couldn't afford child care. Right? And and and it's the dangers. Right? It's the vulnerability that we subject children to because we have limited options. Right. And this is a the systemic challenge. Absolutely. Right? Mhmm. And it's more Yeah. I'm talking about, you

Speaker 2: 41:29

know, mother's next door. Listen, I I you can't judge that because sometimes, oh, like, god is my next door neighbor. And it may not be the safest situation, but it's the situation that's gonna let me go to work and or to the grocery store or watch to laundromat.

Speaker 1: 41:46

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the part I wanted. The last part I wanted to kind of extract from what you were sharing is this judgment that we receive from society and from the church Mhmm. Right? And from the community Yeah. You know, this why couldn't you have just gotten a job? Why couldn't you have done better? And I heard you say that, you know, there were some moments where you felt you were not being responsible But that's not that's not, you know, you're human. Right? Like, so, you know, if that's the case, a person should have the space to be irresponsible and still meet their basic needs and still be seen as having human worth

Speaker 2: 42:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:33

And dignity by society.

Speaker 2: 42:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:36

And you are not alone in responsibility. So that's a narrative. That's harmful that we see in the welfare reform system. Yeah. Yeah. It's even called the welfare personal responsibility Yeah. Act as this idea that that poor black mothers aren't responsible. Mhmm. Right?

Speaker 2: 42:56

It's not that. It's like, I mean, You don't always know the answer. You don't always know the answer to your situation. Like, I didn't know the answer. To some things. And you don't know what to you know, I I text let me let me explain this way to your listeners. I text a group of people this morning. I needed someone of a particular nationality for a a thing that we're doing next week in the office. And in that group is someone who's of that nationality. And the answer was right in front of me. I just I didn't know. Right? I didn't know. So they text him, like, oh, the gentleman, I'm from such such a place. I was like, oh, man. He was like, and he just started laughing. He's like, you didn't know. I said, you know, sometimes the answer is right in front of your face, but you don't know. You don't know it is right in front of your face. And sometimes it's so close, you don't know it. And so there were just things in the Kia. I know now at fifty, I know now that I've had three kids. But that first kid or that first time, there's some things I just didn't know. And there's some things I didn't know I could do. There were some things I didn't know I had options with this because the thing that people don't realize is not like, let me say this. And this is no shade on social workers because they're not all bad people. It's not like you go in there. Now there's a that technically, they're supposed to be guiding you. But most of the social workers that I came in contact with and I know other people go in contact with, they don't give you guidance. They don't they're not really sitting here talking about your life goals and who you wanna become. Well, let me show you this program. Let me show you steps one, two, and three. We fill this paperwork out. Half of them got to add to because they don't happen with their life. And I can't I'm not I don't wanna cast this net over all social workers that work in in these departments, but I'm just saying the ones I came in contact with and the ones that I hear a lot of women come in contact with. Yeah. And so people think that you go down there and that, like, there's somebody walking you through your life plan. There isn't. Anybody in those in those offices walking through a life plan? Let me show you your your one year plan how to get on and get off. And That's that's not what's happening. Most and so so you have a person that goes there who doesn't already know how to move past a particular pay space in their life. Who and then you run into a person who's judging you because you're you're there, you're single, you're with a kid, what's your problem, and they come up with that attitude. And then to them, everybody is ignorant. And dumb not knowing that I got a high school diploma and a college degree, but I still have had a hard time in my life. And I'm quite articulate and I can rewrite, type all those things that none of that has to do with it. Right? But there's no so people need to know, like, these departments don't offer a life plan to go along with AFDC and WIC.

Speaker 1: 46:05

Yeah. Yeah. And and that's what you said. You said that you weren't given the tools and the info and the the the brutal truth is that info is not intended for us. We don't have access to it. In fact, it's hidden from us. So I want our listeners to check out this book not by Karen Gustafson called cheating welfare. Mhmm. Talks about the ways in which mothers are breaking these rules because they don't even know what the rules are.

Speaker 2: 46:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:32

And that's part of the system's moment intention. Right? To obscure the information and access to the resources in in ways in which we don't even know how. Right.

Speaker 2: 46:46

Yeah. I don't even know, like, this was a problem until you told me it was a problem. Exactly. And some stuff, you know, because again, I was I was gonna add a reader. So some of my documents I actually read, but not all of it. And then, again, it wasn't like the people who are welcoming and warm and Come on in. Let's let's show you how to work this. No. It's not it's not the experience.

Speaker 1: 47:09

Right. Because there's this social perception of black mothers as deviant, immoral, and unworthy. Right. And so we're condemned before we even show up into that space.

Speaker 2: 47:21

Before you even before you even talk to me, you've made a judgment about what you think my story is, or what you think I've gone through, or what you think and, you know, on hindsight, with doctor McKill, when Daniel's father, went to prison, I sent my son away for three months because emotionally, I couldn't wrap my mind around being a single mother. And in hindsight, I had a mental lapse. Like, I didn't know it then. But in hindsight, I'm my mom I told my mom, I'm dropping them off. I dropped my son off, sedentary, and left. And it wasn't because I won't have type person, but I just mentally and emotionally could not wrap my mind around him. And hindsight probably would have been diagnosed depression or something else. You know what I'm saying? Because I just couldn't do it since I just was like, I just went down. Like, I just I just went down. And so it and so it took a friend's calling me one day and say, I'll get your son. And I was like, what? He was like, listen. Wake up. And he should wake up. Go get your side. And that was the wake of call I needed because I was in a I was probably depressed. Yeah. I thought even a great depression didn't know it. And then you know, single parenting wasn't easy for me. And so I spiraled down, but didn't know I was spiraling down. You know what I'm saying? So I made a lot of bad choices. And so there's no one there Like, that help that you think. Why shouldn't she just listen? I need someone to tell me to go get my son back. You know, it took someone saying like, no, you that's not okay. You actually don't need to go get your kid. To help me, like, wake up a little bit like, oh, okay. I guess, it's time to come out of this. But that wasn't the end of it. And, you know, unless you had those people, in your community, and a lot of people don't have folks like that. And it still took three months for someone to say something to me. To kind of alert me to my my dysfunction at the time.

Speaker 1: 50:00

Yeah. And that's what's at stake. Right? It's it's the safety of our families. It's our human dignity because these oppressive systems, the cultural state, it is death dealing. Mhmm. Right? It's not even a matter of survival. It's life or death Mhmm. When we talk about survival. Yeah. That when people are making these desperate decisions and choices

Speaker 2: 50:28

Mhmm.

Speaker 1: 50:29

It's because if they don't, that the alternative might be deaf dealing?

Speaker 2: 50:34

Absolutely. And

Speaker 1: 50:36

so it is that it is an act of desperation against a system that isn't designed to help us because it is biased. It's racist. It's misogynist. It's patriarchal. Right? And so it doesn't see black women as worthy of it too. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I really wanna harken on this issue of judgment. And I'll also say just critically and then I'll come back when we've talked about the rules and the welfare system, even if you were to get a job. Right? As part

Speaker 2: 51:08

of the,

Speaker 1: 51:09

you know, make folks work, women get paid sixty cents to the dollar Absolutely. Of their white counterparts, male counterparts. So even if you were to get a job, it wouldn't be adequate. It would be adequate to to get you out of poverty. That's right. It's a systemic issue. It's not an it's not just getting an apartment. You need childcare. You need affordable housing, you need Right. Is It's a it's a systemic issue. Yeah. And and if when you're son's father, return home. He wouldn't he wouldn't have even been allowed to stay with you because of the rules in the welfare system of having someone with a felony record and living with you. Absolutely. Or it would have jeopardized

Speaker 2: 51:56

your situation. Yep. Yeah. So, of course, when he came home, he didn't come to me. He went back to his mom's house.

Speaker 1: 52:03

Right. And so what does that do for the family system and community? So it's, I mean, it's all around at every turn. We are oppressed and disadvantaged in ways that are deaf dealing and and is not designed to support our human flourishing. But I wanna talk about the the condemnation and the judgment piece. Where was the church in your struggles? And do you find that there are aspects of church teachings and practices that participate in the judgment and condemnation of poor black mothers.

Speaker 2: 52:38

I do. Two things I wanna say about that. So so the first thing I was blessed that in my situation, both myself and my son's father, we came out of the same choir. So people knew us both. So the there was not much judgment there. There was actually a lot of love, but from other people. And from outside that small community. So there was a lot of love Like I said, me and my mom didn't have the best relationship at the time. So there was that that came with his own level of judgment. And then, you know, just people in general that don't know you. And they say things. And so I had my my choir family that was you know, it was cool. That were that were good to me. But it was all the other people. All of it was all the other statements. And I remember like, thinking one day, man. I mean, all the statements. Right? I'm black and female. Baby daddy's incarcerated. Got a son, owned AFDC, a whack. I got a beat up car. That barely runs. I live in a single apartment with Roaches. Like, I was meeting Like, if there was a checklist with stimulus. Check, check, check, check, check, being incarcerated, mama wasn't incarcerated for a short time check. Like, broke check. Like, I'm, like, Like, there was a season where I met all the stigmas that were talk about that time. In instances, that is not a good feeling. Like, I can laugh about it now, but Like, I just remember thinking, man, I if there was a list, check, check, check, check, check, she went on standards. She is the epitome of restigma.

Speaker 1: 55:04

So listen. Can you share with our listeners what facilitated the turnaround and the come up. How did you get to where you are here and who was instrumental in that process? Was it the church? Was it community? Can you just encourage us by telling us the the end of the story? Yeah. I'm at a still unfolding.

Speaker 2: 55:27

I got you. Yeah. No.

Speaker 1: 55:29

No. Please don't apologize. We'll take the full story. It's it's encouraging. The full story. Right? We appreciate that you're keeping it real. And transparent. No. But I can imagine listeners who may be where you were. Right. Wondering, well, she's now reverend doctor nigamous medical life.

Speaker 2: 55:46

Ma'am. What

Speaker 1: 55:47

happened? What what happened differently? And what was the church's role in that? It was

Speaker 2: 55:55

What time? The church was very instrumental because at the time, I was I was a member of fame. And

Speaker 1: 56:01

And like I said, that way,

Speaker 2: 56:02

they my name. Right? And I I guess I have my choir family, and they were very they were they were team that, you know, they were rooting for me. And so that was and and and, you know, me having a kid didn't stop me from being able to sing an choir and all that. I think Dr. Nikhir would change it for me. It was really It was it was the lord saying to me this call in your life. So I accepted my call to ministry. Single black mother on AFDC in Wick. Daddy, baby, Daddy in prison, and I accept the call to administer. And that's really what started the term out for me was accepting that God had called me. And and really just a spiritual And I I can't tell well, no. No. Let me say this way. The day I knew I that I was to step into ministry. I was with the other ministers of the church because I was still very active in church. I just was so struggling. And we are crossing the street going to have lunch with doctor Murray. And the holy spirit is saying to me, this is where I want you to be. And I knew it was in the middle because I was living in the middle street walking with my son, the only minister walking a little baby in tow. And and and and just kind of acknowledging, like, who who is that talking to me and going later on that week to my pastor? And tell them I think I've been calling to to to to ministry. And it wasn't necessary to preach. It was just called to ministry. But I accepted that call, says, Still on AFTC and Wix, still in the single part with the coaches, still that the baby daddy in prison, still struggling, still not having. And just knowing that god had it. It was a spiritual moment. It was a spiritual encounter. But it was also because I was in a space with people that spiritual we're feeding into a pass through Mary and others. But the crazy part is number fast forward in, like, a couple of years. So I'm in ministry. Life was turning around. And it so let me say it to your listeners. It wasn't that moment when I accepted my card of ministry, but it took time for me to walk in there. And it was walking in that that began to turn everything else around. When I accepted that guy had called me, regardless of my situation. That's what began to turn around for me here. Like, fast working years later, I'm I'm working with some young ladies at the church teenagers. And I remember a woman calling me. I don't even know what she called me about. And she says to me, So you're a single mom. I was like, yeah. She's like, you're not married. It's like, no. This is a woman who's older than me. She said, you mean, tell me that guy called you a mystery and you a single mother and you either have a baby's unaware

Speaker 1: 59:18

What?

Speaker 2: 59:21

Says. Then when we called me and tried to clown me on being called me in the ministry. I guess she had just found out or she had just heard. And because at that time, when you know when you ate me, you gotta go before the church, not at. Mhmm. Call me on my I don't know. She got my phone number. She called me on my phone number and really tried to clown me for accepting my card of ministry as a single month.

Speaker 1: 59:41

What's how did you respond?

Speaker 2: 59:43

I said, well, if you wanna tell the story of Mary and Joseph, Mary wasn't married either. Come on. If anybody is able to talk to, unless single mothers is me. And because that by that time I read a little you know, I Like, I was raised in church, so I knew the bible. That wasn't the issue. I just had to get out of whatever God had to deliver me from God had to deliver me from. And and that's all another story about what I could be delivered from, but it was street life. But so that was part of the turnaround. Like, getting delivered from streetlights like being up streets.

Speaker 1: 1:00:23

We're gonna have to have that conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:00:25

That's a whole another that's a whole another problem. I don't

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

think I got that drop. And I know you very well.

Speaker 2: 1:00:33

This just put on the cap August seventeenth nineteen ninety one, Laura spoke to me very clearly said his life or death get out, and I had to make a phone call from the Retreat Center. Wow. And it wasn't easy. Oh, boy. It wasn't letting go easy. But it's a whole another podcast. Mhmm. But

Speaker 1: 1:00:54

So this was communal violence. This was intermittent intermittent partner violence.

Speaker 2: 1:00:59

What's going on? It was Okay. Yeah. So But yeah. Yeah. So but, anyway, but but but, yeah, she tried to call me. But by that time I had I come up a little bit. So I just dropped on her story, Mary. Mary wasn't married either. So if anybody's able to talk to single mothers and church is new, that's really good. She dropped you know, that was a light drop moment that wasn't, you know, she didn't have none of the must must have that she kind of I guess what, you know, God says. So I I can't argue with, you know, that kind of respond to what God says. So I can't yeah. What you called me for is so, you know, And I think she wasn't expecting me to respond to her that way, but people don't know. Like, I'm very nice and I smile a lot, but I will let you have. I have a capricorn. I don't get it. Any fucking gift.

Speaker 1: 1:01:55

Listen. For our listeners, I want you to check out this book by Tracy West. She's a professor a distinguished professor of ethics at Drew University, and the name of the book is disruptive Christian ethics. And in that, she talks about Mary and the magnificat. Mhmm. And she talks about Mary in relationship to poor black women who are on welfare.

Speaker 2: 1:02:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:02:28

And it is a beautiful interpretation of Mary through a social justice lens Yeah. That relates Mary's story to women like you and other mothers who had to have experience with poverty, with judgment, and with welfare system. And so work. So I encourage our our listeners to to check out the book by Tracy quest disruptive Christian ethics. And and what that woman said to you is it really shows the ways in which kind of be issues of judgment and condemnation that we receive in society, right, by the officer who said, well, couldn't you just get a job? All of those judgments that we are that we also encounter those judgments in the church. That's right. And the people who weaponize the gospel people who weaponized the bible in their faith in ways to point blame

Speaker 2: 1:03:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:30

On women who do not represent their standards of purity and respectability and piety and holiness and so forth. So much so that she questioned your worthiness, I'm being called Right. Recognizing that we all have a call. Right? Because that call affirms our humanity. It it affirms our personhood. It affirms that God cares enough for us that got created us to to to execute an assignment on Earth. Right? That we all have a role Yeah. And some contribution

Speaker 2: 1:04:09

Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:04:09

To give to creation and society. And it does not matter if you're poor, it does not matter if you're woman. It does not matter if you have a conviction. It does not matter if you're on welfare. It does not matter if you have Roaches in your house.

Speaker 2: 1:04:21

Right? Right. Right? We are all good Yeah. Worthy

Speaker 1: 1:04:27

Yeah. And made in the image of God. Yes. Says, I wanna thank you so much for for joining us on this interview as we talk about the criminalization of poor black mothers and abolitionist interventions. We had an abolitionist sanctuary service at your church And perhaps as we look to conclude this, this interview, you could talk about your experience and kind of how you have how you see the benefits of merging, faith, of abolition so that when we read the gospel, that when we are applying interpretive lens to our faith that we do so through the lens of social justice with an attention to ambition. And as you do that, as you talk about your experience with the abolition of sanctuary service, could you just conclude with some call to actions who are our listeners.

Speaker 2: 1:05:23

So first, I wanna say thank you for bringing Abilis to sanctuary, the word of encouragement church. I think it was important for me not just to support the work that you're doing, but also to help my the congregation that I have responsibility for in the community to help them marry together the gospel and and and life Right? Because sometimes you can be in a spiritual space and it's all spiritual and it has no practical application. And number one, my life is you know now, it's too real to not to to, you know, to to try to separate the two. And and also I was raised under that where you bring the gospel and real life and what's happening on the ground together. So the impact of of ablish the sexuality coming to our church was that it gave the community perspective how to do that, looking at this issue of, you know, black mother's welfare, even the issue of reproductive rights from through a spiritual lens, gospel lens. Right? And And and so what that does, it begins to open up the minds of people like, oh, this is not just about me being holy ghost field even though it's important, but this gospel has other functions and other functions that can also benefit my life. So now the gospel not it's not just something that is emotional and feels good. It's also a a tool I heard Dr. Wuhan Binjia talk about technology. So now the gospel is technology. For me to use in the real world to address all these issues. So and so that was that's I think that's the benefit. Right? People learn how to use the gospel and apply it in a in a more practical practice kind of way. And it becomes a tool and technology for their day to day life and not just some spiritual thing that makes them feel good periodically. And then I think the call to actions would be number one, follow abolitionists, sanctuary on all the social media platforms. Get connected with get connected with doctor Nakia. Especially if you're new to this space, you don't wanna get out there on your own and then, you know, make make some bigger mistakes. You wanna be connected to people that know what they're talking about And and because it's not necessary for us to reinvent the wheel, sometimes we just need to get help somebody else push their buggy along. And so I wonder why they want to help doctor McKee and push the buggy along, call it, Applebee's, sanctuary, and then find your, find your, find the theme in a social the in in like the social social justice world that is for you and get connected with that. So whether it's reproductive rights incarceration, if it's, you know, police brutality, whatever is a plethora of issues, even if it's ecological justice, whatever. Find the thing that that's that resonates with your heart and your soul and make a decision to get plugged in and to activate. Because we need where people to activate as opposed to just listening. And so, explicit safety is a great place to start. And read more. Dr. Nikkea, you gave out a bunch of books. Some of those books I've read and I got a bunch of books so to the listeners, to the viewers, read read books, read books by some of the people that Dr. Kia mentioned to others, read books and really understand what's going on. It is a it's a game and not a good game. It's a game out here. A lot of games are being played on people's lives and and then I can tell you that. Then I can tell you you play in chess and you think you play in checkers. That's a real bar by Nipsey Hussle. I was either trying play checkers and they play chess, and that's real. So read books. Read. Yep. And that's that's it. Yeah. Thank you. Definitely connect with me. Rev juju on all social media platforms. If you Google Rev juju, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, it's all the same. Ram, g g, r e v, j u j u, and you'll be able to find me.

Speaker 1: 1:09:45

Excellent. Thank you so much, Robin. Jigju, I know that you do a lot of work with black lives matter and clergy for black lives and the various social justice movements. So I hope our listeners will support you as they find you on social media and you keep us informed of the great work that you're doing. We definitely wanna plug in and tap into you. So thank you so much for joining us. I am your host, reverend doctor Nikhia Smith Robert and the Executive Director of Ablishna Sanctuary, you can follow me at nakia as Robert n at ablishna Sanctuary on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. You can also sign for exclusive updates, donate, and support us at w w w dot abilitionisanctuary dot org. As we conclude this episode, Remember that abolition is not a practice, but it is a religion, and this is what we believe. We believe in a god of being oppressed. We believe that black women share divinity with god, Hagar, Harriet, So Jernard Carol, and countless others who make a way out of no way. We believe in black women as worthy, a source of salvation, and whose moral agency to make a way out of no way demonstrates the carton virtues of compassion, care, creativity, courage, and community over and against condemnation and criminality. We believe in a brown Palestinian Jew, the black messiah Jesus who was profiled police and persecuted by the state on trumped up charges. We believe that Jesus died a criminal but did not wake up one. He transcended criminality on the cross, but no one ever needs to die for us to be saved. We believe, and spirit as advocate who draws the least of these, fem, women, men, girls, boys, and gender not performing people to other in a beloved community, we believe in a resurrection hope that calls us into right relationship and to restore the human dignity of individuals who are criminalized, caged, and cashed out. We affirmed discipleship as a call to advance a faith based abolitionist movement to create spiritual legal and economic sanctuaries to transform social structures where the last become first and the captives are set free. We are avidist sanctuaries, leaving a coalition to repair, restore, and rebuild a more just inequitable society of communal thriving. Dr. Medumet, thank you so much for being with us.

Speaker 2: 1:12:08

Amen. Thank you.