The Gabi Koyenov Podcast
Cult Escape Artist Reveals How To Be Cult Proof with Calvin Wayman
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Hello friends. And this episode, I sit down with Calvin Wayman. Calvin. Grew up. In an extreme fundamentalist Mormon group, which he identifies as a cult. His story is fascinating. And this episode was all about his bike for freedom It was an incredible story and we dive deep into what does it mean to grow up in a cult, to be in a cult and how he became aware that it was what it was and was able to eventually leave and his journey of healing. So it was a really honest and raw and riveting episode. I am so excited for you guys to enjoy it. You can connect with Calvin in the description. His links are there. He has host of his own podcast called the culture podcast and he has a YouTube channel. So go check them out, go send them some love. Additionally, this episode is brought to you by the men's therapy studio. Are you feeling lost or overwhelmed as you try to navigate your place in this world? Well, you're not alone. The month's therapy studio is here for clients. Like you trying to figure out the big questions from career heartbreak relationships and who you want to be. We take your challenges seriously, and a world that often doesn't so hop on a free consultation, send an email or book a session online. And lastly patron is now available for extra content and a community. You can check out the Patrion page link in the description and guys enjoyed the episode. There's so many more episodes available on Spotify and other platforms as well. So enjoy and subscribe.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Thanks For having me. I always love talking to therapists because they, they psychoanalyze people. And I, I've done that myself. Like I've done a lot of therapy. Thank God for therapy. but also just therapists, friends being like, I'm trying to work out because every once in a while I feel like I have to step out of my own life and then look at it and be like, okay, how did I probably pick up something based on the environment that I'm in and now I'm so out of it. Like therapists have given me some really cool insights of,
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:That's so interesting.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:what of like what's probably happening and and what that's doing to my brain like so yeah I always love talking to therapists
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, Yeah. So I really want to get into that, because, you know, you grew up, you identified as a cult and I want to understand what that means for you. And like, I know that, it's some
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:It's a strong word
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:yeah, it's a strong word. And it's also, uh, like you said, it's a branch of Mormonism or fundamentalist Mormon group. And I want to understand like, what makes your community different from like, I guess, regular Mormonism, which would not be a cult, let's say.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Yeah, yeah. Well, it depends on who you ask. Some people say that that is a cult too. Yeah Um the thing I mean it took me a long time before I was even open to call it a cult Yeah, I didn't I certainly didn't call it a cult when I was in it And even when I left, I still didn't call it that. But as I've been out and being like, okay, what are things that make things culty? And I think, I think that's a, that's a healthier way of looking at it is like cultiness because there's, it's a spectrum. You can slide up and down it. You like something can be cult like or culty and you can have a cult that's pretty culty because they're worshiping the dude that's in charge and that you have, you can't leave. But then it can even go even more extreme. That's like, you got to have, you know, tattoos or blood sacrifices, consecrate your entire mature, and that's even more culty. So it can slide up and down, but something you just asked the difference between fundamentalist Mormonism and Mormonism, this is a good question because a lot of people don't recognize the tie, a lot of Mormons. Or LDS as they call themselves now. I mean, they've always been called LDS, but there been this strange push that they don't want to call themselves Mormon, even though literally the, the book that Joseph Smith created is called the book of Mormon and they call themselves Mormon for so long. But anyway,
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Interesting. Okay. I mean, do you think there's a reason for that?
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:PR. Because they, Mormonism, For the longest time, if you look at, in fact, Johnny Harris, we were talking about Johnny Harris right after this, he did, he did a really cool documentary around the history of Mormonism on how there's been a, like, especially since like early 1900s, they've been more and more trying to brand themselves as, as a primary Christian faith and they technically are like Jesus is there, but there's also some very unique things that make it, uh, Very different than a typical than typical Christianity. Um, what was I going with that? Hold up. There was something I was gonna say about that. Oh, the, the why they don't want to be called Mormons from the image of what we think of when we think of Mormonism, because with Mormonism, there's like polygamy and stuff like that. And they're like, we're not polygamous. And they like there to be this separation, especially from who they are and fundamentalist Mormons, but to just dive deep, the difference or the sameness. Regular Mormons used to be synonymous.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Hmm.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:If you talk to a regular LDS member now, they're gonna be like, we've never, like, nobody believes in polygamy anymore. That was something we did way back then. Joseph Smith, the founder of all of Mormonism, was a polygamist. His successors, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, all of these prophets of the LDS church, of the whole movement, were polygamists. Were, not only were they polygamists, they taught it as a doctrine at like as a tenant, just as important as any tenant that this is what you have to do, what you have to do to get to the highest kingdom and Mormonism, there's tears of heaven and to get to the highest known as the celestial kingdom. You must live this way. It was a commandment of God. This is how you must live. That's important context because a lot of LDS members today, and it's not always their fault, um, because there's been such a shift over the last 100 years to make it feel like it was not a commandment and it was. Somewhere along the way, So where did the split happen? Where, it's all the same thing, and now there's a distinction between LDS Church and fundamentalism. Well, the LDS Church was having a lot of strain, let's call it, with the federal government in the late 1800s, early 1900s. the practice of polygamy, the federal government, just the simple version. They did not like it. It was barbaric as far as they were concerned. It was like akin to slavery as far as they were concerned, and they kept putting more and more pressure on the LDS church to the point where they created laws against the LDS church. They started confiscating church property for their practice. And so now there's a lot of this pressure. on the church. What are we going to do? Is this a doctrine? It's now been multiple generations since the founder had passed, and one of, and the prophet at the time, Wilford Woodruff, got a revelation from God that polygamy is no longer required. Now, when he did that, they had a generation of very deep Faithful believing members that remember Joseph Smith that remember Brigham Young and Remember the fiery sermons like this is the only way you're gonna get to the celestial kingdom so they were like They're just doing this for the federal government like it like it created this double life like this double standard in fact, there literally was a double standard in the sense that The LDS Church publicly said one thing. We're not doing polygamy anymore You Privately, we're still polygamists, but then the federal government got word of that and they were like, no, you guys are still living polygamy. And long story short, they ultimately says, no, we're actually done away with it. In fact, we're excommunicating members that are practicing polygamy. And that's what happened. This is the part that a lot of LDS members, even today, don't know. My ancestors. Were kicked out of the LDS church for being faithful to what their leaders taught them. That's where,
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:That's so screwed
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:where, fundamentalist Mormonism comes from. Because LDS church people try to separate themselves, like, we're so different, they're weird, they're culty, we're not a cult. But what they do not understand is that the organization they're part of birthed, birthed the fundamentalist movement. By excommunicating their most faithful members and by faithful meaning the ones that were most Saying this is what we've been told is the right thing by our own leaders We're going to live it and it was a huge sacrifice because they loved their mother church They loved it like well We have to live this way like that like and they were confused at the time too Like is this a is this a public stunt? And so they were kicked out and they were like, well, joseph smith said that we have to live this way So I guess that's why I guess we're the ones that are carrying it on. And so from fundamentalists, fundamentalists Mormons from that day, it's been their mission to carry on the true tenets of Mormonism, as discussed, as revealed. Now, obviously I'm zoomed out of this enough that I like, I think a lot of it, if not all of it is like nonsense and that Joseph Smith is not who I was taught that he was and stuff like that. But just from a human level. I look at, look at my ancestors and people, they are, they're just faithful members that have been living what they have had been taught and believed in their bones was the right way to live. That's the separation. That's the, like, that's what it is. When you, when it comes down to it,
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah. First of all, that's such a fascinating story. I'd imagine though, once the split happens, probably people become more extreme and fervent
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:100%, that's what we're saying. There's been, and then there's been more extreme versions of that split since. Because think of about what fundamentalists are. Fundamentalists are, were the true ones left. Everybody else doesn't have it. We're the true ones for God. And so there has been multiple split offs within fundamentalism because fundamentalism that it happens again, where they're like, this, what, what, which is, which is something that Joseph Smith actually actually taught. And there's a disagreement between little factions within that fundamentalist group and then splits happen again. There's actually so many little splits, which isn't surprising. The same thing happened in Christianity. Like there's a lot of different split offs over minute details and that, and that's happening to this day. Um, there's the whole fundamentalist Mormon movement, but within that there's like dozens and dozens of little churches with like a hundred members, 2000 members, maybe 20, 000 members, but most of them, most people have never heard of, like my church was a church of 2000 members. It's not that big.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Mm hmm. So, wow, only 2, 000 of
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:in this particular one, the whole movement is estimated to be like 60 to 80, 000, which still isn't that much, but yeah.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:hmm. that is bizarre. So, I mean, talk to me. In the way that you're growing up, like, what to you seems like this was really a cult? Like the, you, like you were being forced to do
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:You mean when I was in it growing up, there was no aspect of
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:what, what are you looking back now?
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:When I was in it growing up, there was zero aspect of it that felt culty to me.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Okay. Interesting. Cause this was your
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:This is what I knew. Like I understood that we had the true truth. This is what we were totally expected to, uh, uh, I'll give a, a modern day viewpoint of what it did for me psychologically, but. We knew that we were gonna have people tell us that we were wrong, that there was an outside world, that there was other fundamentalist groups that we were gonna have disagreements on. But that ultimately came down to us just believing our ours more, because we were like, yeah, like of course they're gonna think that way'cause they're fighting against the truth. So if I analyze that now, like you and I met at a really cool conference, um, and one of the conferences, one of the, just for the listeners, it's an event for like debate, questioning things, philosophy, called Dissident dialogues. And one of the things that I recognize now that the environment turned off is this healthy part of human. Called skepticism. You know, skepticism isn't necessarily pessimism. You need to be able to question things. And the way I was raised, anything that was a question. Was turned into fighting against God. And so you don't want to fight against God. So what does that do? You like, you want to be a good person. You don't want to fight against God. So you, when you hear question inputs, we, we just branded them as like, Oh, they're anti God, they're anti Mormon. And so it just creates this environment of insularity of like, just staying within these bounds and everybody like groupthink. To the nth degree that's what was created again. I didn't see that when I'm in it when you're in it You're just like you feel cozy. You feel safe. You feel there's this big evil outside world. There's this these Diluted other fundamentalist Mormon churches the regular LDS church. They've been They apostatized from the truth like a hundred years ago, 150 years ago, and we're the only ones left. We're the reason the world is even still spinning, because God is such a merciful God. He's letting everything, like He wants to destroy everybody for the evil, but God rain, He lets rain fall on the wicked just like He does on good, and so He's letting everything last because we're it. We're the only ones left. Like, so we truly believed and they still do. They still believe it. Like, it's so strange for me when I go back, I just went back for the first time in a long time. Unfortunately, a family member passed, but it's just, I got to feel it now after being out for a while and it's like, there's so much, it feels so fake right now to me after being out. Cause you can just see, yeah. That you see the conformity. And then the posing of freedom in it of like, Oh, I'm free to choose what God wants for me. And, you know, I could do whatever I want, but I'm going to do this anyway. It's there's a lot to unpack. It's probably going to take me years to fully fully unpack it.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Right. I mean, what's, what's bizarre to me. and what's really incredible is like, you could be in it as a kid and it's so real and you're so invested and there are all these real amazing things that it does for you. Like that feeling of safety, being part of that community. Um, you know, and, and it's, it's so, it is real, you know, but then looking back at it after getting your space, you know, You're like, this is completely, this is completely
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Yeah. Because the thing that I think is real is that sense of safety. This is what I look at now that I'm like, there's so many things that I think it hijacks real things. For example. Everybody's had this thing where they feel in their gut some sort of truth or something that is meaningful. What my church would say is because you're in this church and because you've been blessed with the priesthood, if you're a male, because women can't have the priesthood, but if you're a male and you get that feeling, it's because you're in the line of your duty. You're following God. You have what's called the spirit of the Holy Ghost, and that's why you know that truth. What I now know You've had that feeling. My other friends that have never even heard of Mormonism had have had that feeling when you're in it. You think I have this because of this. There's so many things like this. Like people are people. If a kind act happens in my church, they think that the rest of the world is evil. There's not human kindness because they turn on the news and they do see evil things happening, they're like, This is here because, because we're doing God's thing. And there's, there's like a, again, a hijacking of, I've seen so much human kindness from strangers living in this big, evil, wicked city. What my family would call New York city. Like I've seen so much human kindness, like just, Somebody hungry and somebody that like a stranger being like, Hey, I just bought these groceries, but here I can buy other groceries This I'm gonna give you this bag of groceries like just stuff that really touches me and I that's what I see Is like there are real things but when you're in that There's almost like a hijacking of it and saying it's because of us. It's because you're here. Whereas actually that could, it could just be who you are deep down as the, the human that you are.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:talk to me about when you start waking up to this, to realizing like this is not the right way. And I also want to understand, like, I think when people say a cult, you know, it often connotates like this extreme, extreme, uh, way of thinking, this extreme living.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Well, extreme living. We haven't talked about my family dynamics or siblings. should, we go there. Yeah.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:like the, the manipulation and the abuse, like what was going on there that to you was like, this is, this is legitimately a cult.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:A lot of little things. Um, usually, okay. We, we usually start. I've started interviews with this, but we haven't gone there. So I grew up with four moms. So my dad was a polygamist. My grandfather was also a polygamist. He had like 11, 12 wives. Polygamy was the norm. And because polygamy was the norm, having a lot of kids was the norm. I'm going to say the line that you said, actually, off air that you said, that's interesting. I'm the 11th. I'm the 11th child. And this was the thing that you said, and I'm one of the older kids. That's something you don't hear very often. I'm the 11th child, and I'm one of the older kids. I actually have 44 siblings. So if you want to, if we're looking for extreme, There we go, there's one. So I, and we grew up in one house. So all in one house, five parents, 45 of us total.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:I'm talking, where'd you guys
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:On bunk beds. You know, We ultimately built an addition to the house. We needed one as the family was growing larger. And once we did that, and we went from like having three bedrooms to like 13 bedrooms in the house, um, that definitely helped. So me and myself and like four of my other brothers like live in the same room. And we. I graduated from bunk bed to just like a bed in the same room. So yeah, there was like a main room that was like all the girls, like a dormitory or something. Like this is the girls room area and this is the boys room. Like that was the bulk of it. And then the older kids got to eventually start getting their own individual room. And then of course all the parents had their own room. Um, but yeah, there was a primary girls room, a primary, uh, boys room. And then like just a smattering of older siblings that got to have their own space, which I got to have when I was 19. it was It was huge. It was like, I get to have my own room. Yeah. Um, but to answer your question, as far as like, when I started to doubt, Oh, you like this because we just went to this event. Uh, and at this event, philosophy is Was a big thing. So there's two big things that made me start to finally doubt. Um, one, I call the crack and one when I left the bubble. So the crack, where did the crack happened? Happened. I'm the only sibling that went to college.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Was college unaccepted? Like unacceptable.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:By and large, especially in my family, some people in the church thought it was a good idea. But it was very much frowned upon because we had heard these horror, horror stories of people that went to college and then left the religion. Now you have to understand, not only how dare they, it is, it is terrifying. Like you have to understand the dynamic when you're in it. The thought of, of leaving and the thought of never making it back is the, is viewed as one of the most horrifying things you could ever do. As a human, because it means the devil one, you're on this battle for, for, uh, Your soul. And we're here to gain experience. And we're hoping that in this life, we chose all the right things so that we can keep on progressing, not only go to heaven, but in Mormonism, you can keep on progressing after death to someday be a God yourself. And so. Yeah. And so we've got two major extremes become a god or given to the lust of your flesh and someday be damned to hell and burn in hell for eternity. Right. And so somebody that went to college and didn't make their way back to the church, they're burned and they're burning in hell forever. Like, that's a very scary thing. And so parents were very cautious, let's say. Was sending their kids to college. But, um, I have to credit my upbringing in a way that made me want to go to college because I was always very curious. We got a computer when I was like six years old. I was the, to help us with our homeschooling and I became obsessed with, with computers and, and learning things. And I eventually graduated high school. Uh, from home, worked in my dad's construction company for four years, realized. I hate this. I want to use my brain more than my hands. And I want to keep on learning. Besides, our prophet Joseph Smith said, Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge. And so essentially, I convinced my dad and my grandfather, who was one of the church leaders, I convinced them to let me go. Uh, it took a while. My dad didn't like the idea. He had me go talk to my grandfather. When I talked to my grandfather, he was like, Hmm, I don't know. And then he asked, What do you want to go for? And I said, Business. And as soon as I said business, he was like, Oh! You know, like most of my family's in construction. You know how, you know how, when you're young, everybody's like, What do you want to be when you grow up? And kids are like, An astronaut! Or, you know, a doctor! For my family, Every single person in the Wayman family, we're in some sort of trade, some construction trade. So my choices were like, Calvin, what are you going to be? Are you going to be a plumber? Are you going to be a framer? Are you going to be an electrician? Like, are you going to be do cement work? Like that was it. Right. And, and I hated construction. And so I wanted to, uh, get out and do, and do more business stuff. And. When I said that to my grandfather who was like, yeah, it's probably a good idea if somebody from the community understands business. And so that was my in. Now, how does that lead to the crack? Well, any, he gave me some stipulations. Like he was like, go to classes, go home. Don't stay on campus. Don't go to any, go ahead.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:I want to understand at this point you still fully believe.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:100%. 100%. I had no doubt in my mind like I wanted to go like. I had a sense of adventure. That's for sure. Like I w I knew I wanted to like a whole other story for probably a different day is like just my teenage years and how I had this longing for individuality. Cause there wasn't a lot of it in my upbringing. There were so many things that I did to like, it was this mix of wanting to be unique, but also be accepted and, and set myself up for the long run. Like I didn't want. I didn't want to be like everybody else, all of my brothers. Like, I wanted to have something different. I wanted to lean into my strengths. And out of all of my brothers and many of my siblings, I loved learning shit. I loved math. I loved algebra. I ultimately fell in love with calculus. Like, I loved learning and I wanted to lean in that, not just building stuff. Which I can do that too, but I wanna, I wanted to learn. And so,
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Interesting. I find it hilarious that you love algebra and math.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:I think it helped. You want to know what, because I mean, something we were saying earlier, I think we're like, maybe you didn't quite say this, but yeah, we have to, there's our gut, but then there's things we have to do to do to check our gut. You got to have rationality and logic. And I think it was actually my love for computers and math that trained my brain. This is just me post mortem analyzing my life, gave me some of the skill set to question things. And not just take a wholesale and be like, does this actually make sense now though going back to college? Keep in mind. I'm a fundamentalist mormon boy, and we were taught to not tell anybody Like
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:that you're fundamentalist really?
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Oh, yeah. Yeah, they can't know because, well, my ancestors spent time in prison for their beliefs because they were polygamists, polygamy became illegal after Mormonism after the LDS church kicked out fundamentalist Mormons, they kept doing things more and more to try to separate themselves from fundamentalists. First, they told the federal government, we're not doing any more fundamentalist marriages. Then they said, we actually did a revelation against polygamy. Then they were like, look, we actually kicked out members. Then they actually started prosecuting. So Utah, where I'm from is a very Mormon state. It was actually, you know, settled by my Mormon pioneer ancestors. And so there's a lot of legislative Mormon influence. And so laws were passed. Against fundamentalists, uh, that you couldn't like one of them that finally got broken down, like just a few years ago was this co cohabitation law where people could be put in jail. Guys could be just by living in the same house as other women And they had to create a law like that because they weren't technically married to four women or 12 women. They were married to one
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:hmm. Mm
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:and then they had a spiritual marriage to the rest. And so the Mormon church legislature. Tried to find out some ways to still prosecute those fundamentalists. So they created this co, this, this bigamy law, they called it, or this cohabitation law where they could put people in jail. And they did. I have, I have family members on both sides, my mom's side and my dad's side that spent jail time for no other reason, except they were polygamists.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:So they were put in jail by LDS members or by the
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:by the police, but guess who was, guess who was the police?
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Oh, wow. Okay.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:The whole Mormon, I mean, it's, it's funny now, like even to this day, we're in 2024, it's been forever. Utah is still one of the, if not the most strict alcohol laws. Like alcohol States, for example. Why? Because alcohol is forbidden in Mormonism. And so it's very difficult to get your hands on alcohol. Like, uh, there's all of these rules. Like you can't order it unless you're eating food with it. Like there's very strict hours on when you can, like when a liquor store is open, there's not regular alcohol in like a gas station or a grocery store. Like there is anywhere else in America. Um, and it's because of that Mormon influence, but all this ties back to why I never told anybody. We were raised then to be very secretive because we don't want our dad to go to jail. We don't want our moms to go to jail. So when I go to college, who did I tell that I was a polygamist? Child zero, no people like I was there to learn. I was, I was by myself. I did not talk to a lot of people. But where does the crack happen? Where does the doubt start? Yes to your question. I totally believed it and Even though I was going for business. You have to take general education part of general education I had to take a philosophy class. It was a single story of Philosophy so to tie back to the event that you and I met at with there's like philosophical discussion and stuff It was Plato's allegory of the cave. There was the story of Plato's allegory of the cave. I, I don't think I'll share the whole story, but essentially the punchline of the story is this person's in a cave. My, my professor asked, are they sad? And I said, yeah, they're in a cage. Like, but that's all they know. Why would they be sad? And I was like, Oh, they have nothing to compare it to. Interesting. And. One day, one of the people breaks loose from the chains, they were chained, and looks behind a back wall and sees that there's this One of the key features of the story is these shadows appear in the wall in front of them. Everybody in the cave argues about the shadows, they think that's ultimate reality. And so when this person breaks free from the chains, looks behind the back wall, sees that the shadows are actually being created by somebody holding up shapes in front of a flame, blows his mind. Says, holy shiz, his whole reality shattered. Then he sees a crack in the wall, goes out and he, and he leaves the cave. So if his mind, if his mind was blown when he saw that this shadow of a tree is not fake, cause it's somebody holding up a shape of a tree, then he sees a real tree. So his entire identity, everything, his whole worldview was just shattered in an instant, very painful, terrifying. But then he's like, well, this is kind of cool. Like there's so much more to life than I thought. And he realizes I still have my loved ones, my friends and family down there. So he goes back to the cave. His eyes have adjusted to light. He stumbles. They think he's gone blind. It's like, no, I'm good. He's trying to tell them like what's out there. Now they've never been out of the cave. So when he's telling them about things he's seen, like what are they, they think he's gone crazy because they have no frame of reference. And then finally, somebody says, what could be better than the shadows? Like the shadows are so amazing. He's like, The shadows are nothing compared to what's out there. And they're like, what are you, are you saying our shadows are not, are you trying to take away our shadows? And because they feel threatened, they kill him. So that's the fast version of the story. Now I hear that story and I'm just like, that's a cool story. But then my professor asks, okay, who are you in the story? And I'm just reflecting on that. So what does that mean? Now, keep in mind, uh, an important thing to know about my personality up to this point. Why did I go to college? Why did I like math? I loved truth. I was taught that we had the truth. It's why I was in the religion. It's why we were with my church and not the LDS church. I was in love with what is true. And I, we always talked against other people that they like what's comfortable more than truth. That's why they're not in our church. They would rather be with the fake Mormon church, the LDS church, and not with the truth because it's easier to be LDS and, and not face persecution. It's, it's way harder to be in ours, but we love truth. So I had a, and I went to college to continue to learn more truth. And my professor asks, can you honestly say that you love truth? And so I perk up and I'm like, yeah. And she asks, are you willing to leave everything you've ever known in pursuit of it? Or how do you know that you're not in a cave right now? What if everything you think, what if everything you think is truth is just a projection from something else. And what you think is truth is really just shadows on the wall. And it was just something in that question where something clicked in a terrifying way where I was like, wait a minute. I realized that moment. That there wasn't a single thing in my life up to that point. There wasn't a single thing that was a, a tangible, important core aspect of my life that I had internally discovered. I realized somewhere when she said projection, like I imagine it's like somebody's holding up the shape and creating the shadows, like, holy shit. Everything that I think is true is coming from my dad, my grandfather, the church, the books they tell me to read. Not that that's bad, I realized, but I was like, but I, it was uncomfortable to realize I didn't like, it was a projection. I couldn't deny that. It was like somebody saying, look at, look at this, read this. Look at like, this is true. I hadn't discovered it. I had never left the cave. And that was the first time in my life while I was in it. While I truly believed it, that I was like, Oh, I don't know if this is like, it didn't make me all the, all of a sudden think that this is wrong. I was like, I don't know that it is true though. Holy shit. That's terrifying. That was the crack. That was the moment where for the first time in my life, I'm like, what if this is something different than I think it is because I hadn't discovered it myself that it is, if I was on the outside looking for truth, would I actually find it? I don't know. Could it be that I love my dad and my grandfather and these other people and I'm because I love them and they want What's best for me that I'm taking that on. Whoa, that was where it started.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Wow. Dude, my mind is blown. That's such a, it was such a real story. And I think like I noticed you getting really, uh, you know, emotional about it and, Yeah, I want to kind of understand a little more why like, uh, look, what were those feelings that you're feeling?
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:It's a mix of things. Um, I just go right back there and And I know how scary it really was for that for that for that boy because I mean This is it's probably something that I don't even know how to put into words is what makes me feel that way but it's just The terror of it all, the, the instant isolation of that moment. Because who could I talk to in that moment? Who could I talk to about that? For that boy? Who? No, like, couldn't talk to my siblings. My parents. Can't, can't, can't, can't talk to them. First of all, again, they would have no frame of reference and I can't have them thinking I'm doubting and that I'm going to be excommunicated like I now know where that comes from being outside of it like this very tribal part of us as being humans and like being kicked out of the tribe was like certain death. And so there's a lot of those trials there. And I guess just knowing the journey and also just respecting the fuck out of that version of me to dare consider it, knowing what, where it's leading me to and where I am now. Like it just, there's just something in it to me that makes me want to give him a hug, you know, like, because it was, it's such a, a wild, hard to describe journey. And yeah, I don't know. There's just something in it. That's like, I'm both saddened for him, but also so grateful for him for that version of myself and feeling that terror again, going back there and being like, whoa, because that it's just it's so indescribable to have an entire worldview suddenly be questioned, especially In a religion like mine where this is just a small fraction of like a big eternity we're taught and it feels like that entire thing could be is, is in question. But I'm grateful for it because I actually look at people now that like they're there, they have very rigid views of things and it's what leads to fighting and wars because it's getting threatened and stuff like that. And I get it. It feels threatening. It feels very threatening. And again, there's, it's been like, that was just the start of it. And so part, part of the emotions is probably just knowing how that would kicked off like a whole host of things. But yeah, that was, that's where it started. But the second part, cause I said, there's go ahead.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:yeah. No, I just want to comment on that. I respect that so much and I think it's so incredible that you have this like compassion for that younger boy as you described him. Like to be able to literally question everything that you knew up until that point and to now think like, My whole concept of religion and family, like all this might be wrong. And like to be in that space where it's
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:And it's confusing, confusing, because I had so much love and respect for my dad and my grandfather, the people that were in it, I didn't want them to be wrong. I wanted it to be right. Like when I had this crack, I wanted it to be right. That if I'm being really honest with myself, when that made me want to start studying and leaving the cave, it was with the high hopes that it would be true. I wanted it to be, and that was the only consolation that was literally the conclusion I came to after that terror. I was like, well, if it's true and I love truth, I got nothing to worry about. Because if it is true, it'll point back to it. And then I'll have that peace knowing that I did discover truth and I'm not just following projection blinded from dad books and stuff like that. And that's what, that's what kicked off the journey of like, okay, yeah. I, cause if it's like, I imagined the people that we were like, that were diluted, that were in some other religion, some other fundamentalist church that we knew they were wrong. I was like, well, shit. I, if I was them. And I believed in truth, like I would want to know so I could get to the true religion, mine. So I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to try to be honest with myself. If I didn't try to like discover, like if I'm actually looking for what is real, I'm going to find this. And that means, and this was scary, but I, if I was like, well, if I love truth, I don't have to be scared. It's like, if that means that that's wrong. I have to be willing to leave.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:That's so fascinating, dude. Yeah. I mean, the balls to stare into the abyss and then just like walk
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Yeah. People talk about that. And, and I, and again, I have respect for it now. Cause it, cause it's like, yeah, that's brave. That's ballsy. But the thing that's interesting, it doesn't feel that way when you're in it, man. Like it doesn't, it's just like, it feels clumsy. It feels messy and not brave. Like it's not this like crusading, like there is no turning back. Yeah, it was. It didn't feel, it didn't feel brave and courageous at the time. But just to wrap up that, cause I said there was two things. There was the crack and then leaving the bubble after graduating and everything. Um, this other piece, I love truth, but this other thing that I craved and I understand why I craved it now. Uh, I crave freedom.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Mm
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:put it as financial freedom. You know, I, I now view it as like, no, that's cause I'm a, I'm a human being and there's this, I was under tremendous constraints. And so I left my day job to be an entrepreneur. And that's really where things kicked off. Cause when I left, when I left my day job in 2015, I. Left the state for the first time in my life, packed up a U Haul with my wife at the time, I had a church assigned marriage, my one year old at the time, and we went to California for me to do door to door sales. You know, and I, I was gonna go be an entrepreneur. And that is really what took the crack and blew it wide open because now, like people don't realize how much the environment they're in influences their thought patterns and thinking. And when I was out of it for the first time, I just had such different perspective of the world because I was realizing, wait, even though I knew California was over there from Utah, when I'm in Cal, California, it literally felt like I went to a different planet. Compared to what I was in and so now I was free to actually ask myself questions And then I met a lot of cool people I went to events Like that was a big thing. I went to, it started off with entrepreneurship events, but entrepreneurship events, there's this underlying there's this underlying, uh, thing to want to better yourself, progress yourself. And that was a pattern I had from my past. I like, I want truth. I want to, I want to improve. That put me in connections with other religious people. And one of the things that was so confusing during this period is I ended up connecting with these religious people. That good things were happening to them in their life. And that was confusing because I was taught that the reason good things happened to me or anybody else was because of where we were from, because we had the truth because God was blessing us and I'm seeing them give glory to God and good things happen. And they, and them in their own faithfulness. And it made me realize, wait a minute, maybe there's more than one way. And what that then made me do is really go from looking externally of what truth is to then looking inward and being like, why do I believe anything? Like, why do I believe that? Why do I want it to be true? Like, what is it in that? And then that is where, I mean, the therapist in me is like, am I believing Why did, what is that person that believes in the wrong church? Why did they believe it? Because it's comfortable. There's this thing called confirmation bias to be very difficult. How do I know I am not wanting to confirm my own biases and just really looking at and being honest with myself. Why am I believing what I'm believing? If I was on neutral footing and I had options, would I choose this? Would I say this was the truth? And so I was really just on this journey searching. And so I continued to talk. I started to finally open up to people for the first time of where I was from getting data from that, hearing their reaction, like, Whoa, really? And just taking it in and people like telling people I trusted for the first time, um, I started traveling the world. I went to Israel. Israel was a huge thing for me going to the Western wall, seeing, seeing people that way were way more faithful and ardent in their belief in God. Um, than I was like one thing that was so, uh, impactful for me was at the Western wall, I actually, uh, captured, uh, a Jewish, uh, wedding proposal. This video went semi viral and I got connected to the couple and like, I, I, I partied with them and, and, and then talked with, with them for like three hours that night and got into their faith. And all this is just making me realize one major thing. There's more than one way, man. There's more than one way. And if there's more than one way, how on earth do I know that mine is the right one? And would I choose it? And so now for the first time, I'm asking myself, do, why do I believe this? And what do I believe? Like, cause I was like, are there things in my religion that doesn't resonate to my core? And that was a big question. Because yes, there were. You speaking, you spoke of, of abuse. I don't know how much I want to get into there, but there was plenty of that for myself and against women abuse towards any individuality, certainly no space for anything other than, you know, there wasn't any space for, if you were gay, you know, like, and so then I'm asking myself, what side do I want to be on, on these issues? And, um, Realizing, wait, I think I actually believe this. They're saying that you have, you're a bad person. If you believe this way, another one is racism. There was absolutely zero people in my church that were black. Why? Because in my church, black people were cursed. Like, I mean, it's a wild thing to say, but that's what that was the truth. That was raised to think that black people were cursed because of some event that happened in heaven. And then I'm connecting with African Americans. My friend, Kevin in San Diego, he was black. He was one of the first people I started to open up with about where I'm from. And, and then I told him stories that we were told as kids about the African race. And I knew that like, If we know the story and we're removed from it, it made logical sense to me that the people that should really know something about it is if you are black. I tell them the story, I was like, have you, and then I tell them the whole thing and then I said, have you ever heard that before? He's like, fuck no, that's insane. There's this story in heaven, the curse of Cain. The, the, the, uh, how black people got their black skin and that, uh, there was this, there was this war in heaven. And, uh, basically when God was starting the, the, the world and the universe, he. We were all his kids. So Jesus, Lucifer, all of us beings, we're all God's kids. And he presented it to, he says, we need a plan. If we're, if I'm in a, if we're going to do this thing called the universe, if you're going to have bodies, we need to have a plan. And two people came forward, Lucifer, our brother, Jesus, our brother, Jesus gave his plan. Well, Lucifer gave his plan first. That was like, we're going to create a universe. All the souls are going to do whatever they want. They can sin. They can be hedonistic. They all get to go to heaven, but I want to have all the honor and glory because that was my idea, God. And so, and then Jesus was like, well, we all get to have a body, but we have to choose between good and evil. If we choose evil, we go to hell. If we choose good, we come back into your presence, but God, you're giving us all life. So I don't want the honor and glory. We still should respect and worship you, God. God's like, I like that idea. God's a jealous God. He chooses Jesus's plan that makes Lucifer upset. Lucifer creates a fuss. It creates this war in heaven. Everybody has to now choose a side. Are you choosing Jesus's side or Lucifer's side? Anybody that chose Lucifer's side, we kicked Lucifer and all of his followers out of heaven. That become Kim's hell and all of the demons. Then the people that chose Jesus's side, which was one third. So one third went with Lucifer. We kicked him out of heaven. One third was me and you and everybody else that's on this planet. That's white. We fought for Jesus. Now who's the other third? The other third were souls that were like, I don't know. I kind of love God. I kind of love Jesus. I don't know. I also kind of love Lucifer. He's our brother. We can't decide. We don't want to pick the people, the souls that sat on the fence. God was angry at, and he almost was going to throw them down with Lucifer. And say, and say, you're going to be it. But in his infinite mercies, like, you know what? I'll be merciful. I'm not going to throw you down to hell, but you can go down, but you're not going to have the same reward as all of these other souls that actually fought in this war for me and Jesus, those are the black people. So they're cursed with dark skin so that we know who actually in the pre existence like decided to fight for God or not, that's the story. That my church still teaches to this day. And yeah. And so when I was talking to my friend, Kevin, who's black, I was like, I mean, you got, you, you got to know that story. If it's true. Like if you're black, you got to like, this is where I got my skin color. And I was like, he's like, no, that's, that's, that's bullshit. And so then I'm like, Oh my gosh. And, and, and so now I'm asking to ask myself, like, I don't want to think that my friend Kevin is less than like, that's such bullshit, like obviously now, like being out of it. But there's all these things that are stacking up and I'm starting to get some individuality of what I want to believe. And, and then there's just becomes a moment. It becomes so obvious. I'm living in California and then I come back home to go to church and I'm noticing humans learn well through contrast. And so now I'm noticing the fear. And I just made this promise to myself that I had to decide how I was going to live the rest of my life. I was 29, And I was like, I have 30 approaching. How am I going to live? Am I going to go deeper into my church? Because I was considering that too. There's a deeper level to the church. Like there's something in my church called the united order and it's for people that are so serious and faithful that they are going to consecrate their entire lives to the church, give up all of their material possessions for the church. So if any, if the church leaders ask for anything from you, your money, your house, you're willing to give it cause it's all for God. There was an interview process for that. I was in the interview process talking to the church leaders. I was about to sign it all over. And then I'm also having this other split side of me, like, do I actually believe this?
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Mm-Hmm.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:one of my favorite things that I possess of like, I'm a minimalist, so there's very few things that I'm like that I need. But one of the things that I'm so glad I have is on my phone. I recorded a voice note of this decision. Where I'm wrestling and wondering what to choose. And I decide in the moment of, on the voicemail that I'm like, I don't believe this anymore, I'm going to leave anyway, there's a lot of, there's a lot that we could also like, there's a lot of journey that, that, that by itself is just the beginning of a story of like, of the journey of like life really starting, making that choice. But that at least is the journey that gets me to that point of, you know, questioning everything, asking myself and what might be helpful for. Anybody listening is like the ultimate choice point I come down to is there's this quote from I think it's Confucius And I didn't know this Confucius quote at the time But it speaks to the essence of what I came to and the Confucius quote is Every man has two lives and his second life begins When he realizes he has just one and I started to look at all the things that I knew to be true not based on a projection now, but based on lived experience just like Projection, people are like, this is the story of black people, but then I'm actually interacting with, with a black guy, Kevin, and a bunch of others. And I'm like, my direct experience, I have to give more weight to that than somebody else's story. And then, realizing I only, like, I have all the story of the afterlife and the before life. I'm like, okay, I know that, but what do I know more for sure? Like, I hope there's an afterlife, but the thing I know for sure is that I'm here. I know I have this one. Okay. If I know I have this one, what if it's the only fucking one? What if it's the only one? Cause that's the one I know is the most real. What am I going to do with it? And in, when I came to that, I then asked myself, do I want to live the rest of this? Like, I hope there's something after this, but there might not be at least, I mean, I hope there is fingers crossed, but the one that I know for sure, how do I want to live that? Do I want to live it externally based? Meaning. What somebody else says is the truth going back to the Plato story or cause the, there was a big conflict from what I was told is true and my own lived experience and what I was learning and discovering actually talking to again, Orthodox Jews and other people in the world and living life, or do I want to live and judge things and live based on my own internal voice, my own internal And that was a big point because the Religion I was in taught against that because they were like, you're a flawed person. God is, is infallible. So you need to God G the dev, the devil can influence you to believe bad things. Like me even talking to these people was considered a bad thing and considered like dangerous because it's getting on the devil's ground. And so for me to consider to listen to that voice was the height of potential insanity. Because, like, what? Why would you listen to that? Like, who the fuck do you think you are? Do you think you're smarter than the church leaders? These books? Do you think you're smarter than God? Like, it's like, the height of hubris is what it felt like. And so it's like, Do I want to live that way externally or internally knowing that it could be hubris, knowing I could be fallible, knowing I could be damning my soul to hell forever. And what I came to on that voice note is I said, even if that's the case, I have to believe that if there is a God, it doesn't make sense to me that this whole journey I've been on, that somebody that never questioned it, And has been on the sofa being a good boy that they get a better reward than somebody actually Like god has to know he has to know that. I actually want to know the truth and if that means That I'm going to hell forever. So be it. I would rather live the rest of my life because what also felt like hell somehow was just living externally based, based on what somebody else said, saying, this is the truth. Do it that way. I'm like, I'm going to die on my own fucking sword. If I'm wrong, so be it. But I, if I'm damned, so be it, that, that's my choice in that choice point. I know I've got one life more than anything else. How do I want to live it? I'm gonna live it and judge it and, and, and listen to that internal voice for the first time. Even if that means I'm wrong. So, that was the, that was my choice. Not to get so dramatic, uh, but that, that's what it was.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, you know that that story honestly blows my mind and I want to understand like the healing journey for you
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:It's a good thing. What I'm the healing journey. Yeah. Cause it's been a process. Um, this is kind of funny actually. So that I'm wearing this mushroom shirt because I don't know if you're a fan of psychedelics. I'm a fan of psychedelics. When I left, when I made that decision to leave, um, Two weeks later, I was in Costa Rica on a seven day ayahuasca retreat. Like I was like, yeah, I hadn't even done mushrooms yet. I'd never even been high on marijuana, but I had done some just, I'd already been researching it a little bit. And I've heard like, again, in this seeking for truth and people have been like, no, there's more to this world than that. And like, I was like, and I also felt that I needed a reset. And so I was like, like one of the big questions I asked myself that, cause I didn't know at the, like, when I left, I was like, what is something that is mine that I can take with me? Like, what is something that's genuinely Calvin that, that I maybe have had this whole time. But didn't know it because it's clouded by all this stuff. And I wanted to go find it. I want to be like, okay, ayahuasca, like not even looking for an extra truth. It was almost like a, a demolition, like break all the, the stories and the nonsense, what's something that's me. And that was the beginning of that healing journey. But the, the one thing I'll actually share a quick story on ayahuasca, because I think that speaks to the healing. Um, On ayahuasca, there's some strange unexplainable things, but they say come with an intention. And that was my intention. Like, who am I? What am I? What is something that I can actually claim that my soul has that I can build from? And I was given these memories. Uh, and how I got the memories was wild because at first when the vision started coming on ayahuasca, there were these, uh, ants. Blocking my vision. I was like, like, so what, what does this mean? Is my brain dirty? There's like bugs in my head. I don't know what, what, what it meant, but, but, uh, there, there's a point to that because what, uh, I kept resisting it and resisting it and the ants wouldn't leave my vision and, um, the person that was guiding the ceremony had told us right before we took the medicine that you're going to likely see things where. You have one path that's unicorns and honeypots. And the other path is going to be challenging. Like he said, he's like, if you're going to have a path, that's good. And then you're going to see your creepy neighbor. He's like, and most choices, you want to go the good path, but on ayahuasca, you want to go to the creepy neighbor. In other words, except the suck, except the bad things, because there's a lesson there. And so I remembered that as I was starting to see the vision of the ants. And so instead of resisting them, I finally was like, okay. Okay. I'm going to accept these ants somehow. Okay. This seems weird, but I'm accepting them. As soon as I did the, the, the, the vision starts zooming out and, and I, and the ants go from here to like on the ground and they're in a trail. And, and I totally knew that they were trying to get my attention to follow them because they're leading me somewhere. And I was like, there was like something in that to me of like the things that we want to avoid are actually a lesson and they're actually trying to help. And so when I accepted it, they were like, Follow me. Cause my question is who am I? What's something that I can claim and the answer on the ground, I'm following the ants and I'm noticing familiarity. My dad built the addition and my family built the addition. I was like 13 and all of a sudden I'm seeing this sidewalk that was there before the addition in this vision. I'm like, this is so cool. Like I'm, I'm going back in the past. And then the line of ants stops into this pile of ants. And in this pile of ants right above it, there's this little boy, a four or five year old boy on his belly like this, looking at ants. And it was me. And I remember that day. I remember that day. My family was in the house doing something, maybe watching a Disney cartoon in the afternoon. But what was I doing? I wanted to be outside. And I was like, I was looking at ants for no other reason, except I was curious. And so that was the lesson, the thing that I could take. Something about me or in me was that's something I can claim that curiosity and that is something that I can take with me like that I can bank on. That is mine that I had the entire time and I can, I can rely on that in this new journey ahead. So that was the beginning of the healing and then thank God for therapy. I've done a lot of therapy, done a lot of shrooms, um, lot of conversations, a lot of journaling. A lot of conversations. The best thing I've ever done for my mental health is move to New York City, you know. People ask me all the time, like, why would you, like, from a small town in Utah, why New York? And this might be a strange thing to say, but maybe not, but New York is the first place I've ever been where I feel like I can fully relax. Finally. You can, I can be myself, I can wear short sleeves if I want. I can find out who I am and I'm not having people say, do this talk like that. I I'm getting to find myself. And so out of all the things like that's been a major one, like finally living in a place where I feel like is conducive for who I am as a person.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:That's so incredible. It's also ironic cuz I feel like that wouldn't be true for a lot of other
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Yeah. And that's what, and that's okay. That's one thing I've learned. There's not one way. It drives me up the wall. When I hear people on TOK and everybody else saying all men are like this or their dating advice, women like this, like, well, when you say women, are you talking about Betsy? Are you talking about Michelle? Are you talk like there's different people when you talk about men, this is what, what do you, what kind of men are you talking about? Are you talking about Joe Rogan as a comedian? Or are you talking about Elon Musk as like, there's differences. We all have something that's unique. And I, and I don't know, I think we need, people need space for that to find out who they are and what they're going to be.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, absolutely. I love that Open mindedness and almost humility to recognize that like everyone is different and there is more than one way. And even if one way works for one person, it doesn't mean it's going to work for the
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:One thing I've learned is that every, every group of people have something that they hold dear to their, their heart, almost as like a, a jewel, a divine thing, and that berry thing is almost a, would give a disgust response in other groups. Like we all have different, different things that they, we love. Like, yeah, there is no, there's so much change. And that's one of the things I love just about, um, Like, there's so much talk about whether you should love America or hate America, but one of the values that I fucking love about being an American is just this idea that you get to find your way. You get to be, you know, every person is free to choose their life and what they'll be. So
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Dude, by the way, that's so incredible. And I noticed there's so many similarities also with my upbringing, which was so different than yours, but I find it so fascinating how I could still see like reflections of
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:I love that, because that's because it's a human experience, right? Like,
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah. yeah,
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:yeah, like, like you, like there's things that you want to take that that's beautiful from your upbringing, but then there's parts that make you uniquely you.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, and it's interesting also, like, we were talking about psychedelics, I do kind of want to give a small disclosure. I think there's, uh, especially nowadays, this whole push, like, yeah, everyone go
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:I, I'm glad you're making this disclosure because I, I'm definitely not saying that
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. there have, like, people can have really bad experiences, and it
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Yes,
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:know, make things much worse. Yeah, for sure. so I actually did ayahuasca, which was an incredible experience. And then, yeah, I did shrooms twice after that, which were both really bad experiences, but very deep.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Oh man. Yeah, it's a lot of work. It's, yeah, it's, it's not something to be, to treat lightly, to treat lightly. Yeah. I would never, I would never recommend it. Like if somebody says, I'm thinking of doing this, I'd want to ask them like 10 or 15 questions. Like, okay, why? Like, what are you thinking? What's the, and if there's like, oh, it sounds fun. And I heard Joe Rogan or somebody, or I read, Stealing fire some book that talks about it. I heard of burning man and they wanted to do it like No, like because it is one of those it can also be this very earth shattering experience
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:dude. Absolutely. It could, it could mess with you. Um, I remember, like, so I did ayahuasca and it was like a really fascinating, like, mind opening experience. And I think also, like, at that point, I had never tried marijuana either. So that is pretty funny.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:That's amazing you went into the deep end
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, I went into the deep end. So what happened was my piano teacher was a shaman. And so, uh, he and Yeah, he invited me to a ceremony, and I was, uh, I was doing my master's degree in, uh, in professional clinical counseling and marriage and family therapy, and basically, I was reading up about, like, studies about how psychedelics could be, like, really healing and everything, and I was like, you know what, let me just see what it does, you know, I'm very curious, so I was not expecting it at all, but I end up doing the ceremony, and like, dude, I was seeing past lives, I was, like, flying, man, I went, I went to the other dimension, yeah that's pretty crazy.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:It's gonna it'll cause you to question a lot of things
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, dude. Yeah, Yeah. I'll tell you what I think is interesting. Also, you know, with my personal experience, I, I grew up traditionally Orthodox and Orthodox Jewish, and then I joined, uh, what's called like a yeshivish community. And, um, you know, I kind of went and it's kind of like a monastery, honestly, in yeshiva where I was basically learning and studying Talmud and Bible. And then prayers from literally 7. 30 in the morning until like 11pm at night.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:That's dedication, my friend.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah. Yeah. And I really believed in it. And what's incredible is like, um, it's like, I, I still obviously, uh, believe in, you know, stuff from that, that things that I look back in and value greatly, but I don't, I don't identify with like needing to live like that. You know what I mean? And I think like that push to like, where where I wouldn't say it's a cult and more just like, I guess an extreme version of living is cause like, I don't think there was ever, uh, you know, manipulation to stay or anything like that. Um, you know, it, it just. It just did feel like a very intense and extreme way of living that, you know, they preached was the truth. You know what I mean?
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:I think tying back to what makes something culty or not culty. I think it's that element where somebody does not genuinely have free choice. Cause you can tell somebody, I mean, that's something that even have a lot of respect for some of my friends that are Amish or have or ex Amish, at least like they have this thing when they get older, where like, go out, experience the world and then make the decision. Do you want to stay this way? Or do you want to live that way? And. And not in a like people need that and not in a bullshit way like that. I've seen from religions like mine where they're like, No, you have choice. You can choose the good choice and go to heaven or choose this bad choice and go to hell choices. Yours. It's like, no, actually get to decide and, and, and have respect for the choice no matter what. So
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:The interesting thing is, is that when you're talking about, like, I don't know what the word is, but like, um, this kind of very right wing, very rigid Jewish, uh, community, you know, you kind of, Have the choice to, let's say, not dedicate your life in yeshiva, but even that is like frowned upon. And it's like, if you would leave the religion altogether, you know, that would be, that would be a no go, you know?
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Would that damage relationships?
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, that would probably damage relationships.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Yeah. That's too bad. That's too bad.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Um, yeah, that's interesting. And I wonder, like, at what point would I say that it is a cult, you know? Like, what would need to be there for me to be like, this is definitely a cult, you know what I mean? Um,
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:You're kind of getting there for me because yeah, just one quick thing on that. Cause I talked on Anthony Padilla's show. Uh, and he, the whole thing wasn't put in, but he kind of asked me that question. I was like, I said, there's a few elements to it. One of them is high stakes. Like what happens if you leave? And to me, the higher the stakes, like that's a pretty high stake. That's like, we can't be in a relationship anymore. Like if there's like, and then it can more culty if there's actually punishment. So maybe you can't be in a relationship. That's one side of it, but at least you're not punished. Whereas like there's real punishment psychologically and actually for leaving the religion that I'm in or that I'm from. And that's, to me is what makes it culty.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Wow. You know, Calvin, I, I literally could have this conversation with you for another, like two hours. This has been so insightful and fascinating. I'm really happy I I got to sit here with you. I wanna, I kinda wanna ask you one more question, uh, and then I wanna get into closing. But I wanna understand like, what is the role of comedy for you now
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:You just said it. Yeah, that's what, that's what it is, man. Healing. Healing. So, so the reason I like performing comedy, and I'm, again, right now it's just hobby ish, um, I've done a, I mean I do open mics, I've performed in one single show where I got paid, but the reason I like it is We need to, we need to joke around this shit. We have to like life is so complicated and big and if there is no sense of humor and that's one like my, my upbringing had a lot of joking people where they think they're being funny, but genuinely zooming out and looking at it. There's, there's no room for humor. There is no, it is not very humorous and there are certain things that I was forbidden to do. When I was in the religion, one of them. was to dare criticize church authority, priesthood authority. Those are the leaders of the church. Like if you criticize them, again, it's a slippery slope for you damning your entire soul to hell. Something my grandfather would say is criticism of the church leaders or of the priesthood is the first step to apostasy. And again, if you apostatize, you're going to hell forever. So comedy is my way of playing with that fire. Comedy is my way of, that's at least that's where it started. It's turning into more philosophical things or observing culty stuff in the rest of society. Because you know, there are pieces to it. I'm starting to think how it's more of a human thing. Like I think it's the rule more than the exception. Like the, the inkling to be culty. Um, but to me, it started with me almost like facing the thing I feared most. Not. Not public ridicule, not, not getting laughs, but talking about things that I was forbidden to talk about and making fun of it like, like in the face of it. So I'm not afraid because when I first left, I still had some of those things I had to work through. I was like, can I say something against my narcissistic leader, John Timpson, who's the main leader now? Like, can I poke fun at his fiery, like, fear based sermons? And how he like and that was a that was an edgy thing for me and that has been healing One of the most healing things just a shout out to anybody that is mormon if anybody's mormon You have to check out Crystal Moore. Crystal Moore is a comedian that, um, a big thing in Mormonism, Mormons will know this if they're listening, there's this thing called General Conference. General Conference happens twice a year in regular LDS circles where they, they get together and they're hearing, you know, The direct word of God for that entire weekend, Crystal Moore, an ex Mormon of the LDS church. She puts on a show called, uh, the Jack Mormon comedy hour. It's usually the same weekend as general conference and it's a bunch of Mormons, ex Mormons getting together. And just having laughs, making fun of all this bullshit that we believed in. And that like, when I did that, I performed in her show and that was the most healing night of my life. It was like three years of therapy in a single night. So shout out to Krista Moore, Jack Mormon comedy hour, um, uh, for that. But yeah, and again, it's still new. I like, I like, I like challenging myself. I'm, I'm getting more and more into this thing of like, If I really got one life and again, ayahuasca, it points to things that like I had experiences that led me to think, Oh, maybe there was a past life. Maybe there's something else, but I also am rational enough to be like the brain comes up with stories and I don't know if that's just me filling in gaps and it's hard to imagine non existing. And so I want to. not squander the opportunity I have more than anything realizing there is this life. And so I want to continue to challenge myself and push myself and, um, have experiences. And so comedy is one of those things that is helping me do that.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:That's so cool, man. And I'm happy for you. Uh, and I'm also really happy we had this conversation.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Likewise, brother.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:a part two. Cause I feel like I want to go. Yeah,
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:is comedy is fun too. Cause I was like, uh, just the final thing I was gonna say on comedy. It, the thing I also love about it is it's so. Something I would have never considered ever doing, like, especially growing up on a farm, like we lived on a farm and, you know, uh, I milked a cow every morning, gardening, and then construction stuff with the hand, like the idea of just being playful and doing something entertaining, it seems so ridiculous to me. And I like, I want to play more in like that, that space of just ridiculousness and not taking life so goddamn seriously all the time.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, man. I mean, that is
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Yeah.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:way. You know? Um, you know, your upbringing is like, obviously, like, with the, it was, like, sad and tragic in many
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:We, yeah, it's hilarious. No, and it should be played with. It's like, here's the paradox of my existence. I don't believe in anything of where I'm from. Like, I think Joseph Smith lied a lot of shit to create it. And yet what's really funny, it gave me life. Like, I wouldn't even be here if my dad wasn't a polygamist and had 45 kids. Like, that's, that's, that's, cosmic ridiculousness. Like, that's wild. That's so crazy. Like if my dad believed the same way I believed, I wouldn't even be born. Like that's so wild. And so I have to find a way to be like grateful for it. Um, because it brought me into this world. And at the same time be like, well, we all come from like things that like, if you go back far enough that we're not necessarily proud of, and it's all about like, well, what are you going to do with it now? So yeah, we got to play with it.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:for sure. Um, Calvin, if there's one thing that you can yell from the rooftops that if everyone was listening right now, you would want them to know, uh, what would that be?
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Hmm. One life, baby. Really fill into that. One life. There's this stoic, uh, I don't know how to say the exact word, but I think it's something called Amara Fati or something. And it's just this realization of reflecting on your own mortality. Like, even if you believe in the afterlife, I think it is helpful to imagine that this is it. Because it crystallizes and clarifies so much. I've seen so many people play so safe. Afraid of making a mistake or something. Because they think, they're acting like this is going to happen over and over. And there's a lot of belief systems as that. But again, what do you know more than anything? You, like, humans are made to believe in stories. You mean, I mean, the way I define religions or belief systems is like, what is the difference between this faith and this faith? It's a collection of stories. This, they believe in this collection of stories. They believe in this collection of stories. Fundamentalist Mormon groups, they believe in certain collections of stories. Like, we are storytelling, meaning making machines. But when we get down to what we know for sure, we know we are right here, right now. And so, if there's a message I would just tell anybody, like, I'm so fine with what anybody believes. I want you to believe it if it gives you confidence. Joy and Bible and if it's truly from you, I care way less about what somebody believes, but I do care way more about why they believe it and how they got to it. And so just remembering that we got this one life. That's the one we know more than anything. If you really play in that and, and, and consider that, what are you going to do with it from this point forward? We can't control the past, but we're holding the pen now of our life. What's the plot twist? What's the story we want to write now? What would you write? Just really getting people to see that there, that like the, the empowerment in that, that you're holding the pen of the rest of your life. And this might be the only one you've got. What are you going to do? Even if there is something else, what are you going to do with this one? One life, baby.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Calvin, that's beautiful, man. And I'm hearing the wisdom and the honesty and sincerity, and that's so like incredible. And it's great that there are people like you and, you know, being able to share this, this truth and this wisdom. And I'm really honored that I had the ability to have this conversation with you.
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Yeah, me too. And we'll have to get a beer or something at some point here in New York.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:Yeah, for sure. I'd be down. Um, anyways, obviously, uh, links to your YouTube and Instagram will be in the description. Check out Calvin. It was incredible. Anything else you might want to
calvin-wayman_1_05-17-2024_105033:Um, yeah, my podcast, my YouTube podcast cultured, cultured pod. Uh, you can find that on Spotify, uh, or if you just search my name, Calvin Wayman on YouTube or, or Spotify, uh, or Instagram, that's probably the best way to follow as well. So yeah, Calvin Wayman for if people want to follow the pod.
gabi_1_05-17-2024_105034:That's awesome. Thank you for listening guys. We love you. Uh, see you soon.